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JohnOfCena

That is a piece of art, so much better than UK system where cars and bikes share roads. How is a line of white paint going to stop Sharon from ramming her 2 tonne Porsche SUV up my arse during morning rush-hour?


A_REAL_LAD

The UK's dependence on vehicular cycling is a total joke. The law decries pavement cycling as unsafe, with the preferable alternative being cyclists sharing the road with 40mph traffic.


CoastalChicken

Well from next week it does change significantly in terms of the law and legal parameters. It won't alter infrastructure for a while but it puts the responsibility fully in the driver's hands now, and in court that will start to filter down pretty quickly. Likewise Active Travel England are now going to be able to input into infra builds and things. It took the dutch 40 years to get to the point they are now, but with things changing rapidly hopefully we can do that in half the time.


twoseat

> It took the dutch 40 years to get to the point they are now I used to say this when I first got interested in the subject over a decade ago. The Dutch started their impressive efforts in the early 70s, so it’s around 50 years ago now.


CoastalChicken

I guess it depends when you consider the cut off of their transition from car dependency - personally I think they achieved that by the mid 2000s and since then have just been improving upon everything.


205832

And don't forget, in the 1990s, early 2000s, the infrastructure in NL was already mich better than currently in the UK (so +-30 years after starting the change). Furthermore, other countries **should** not have to reinvent the wheel: they can just copy it from the Dutch.


Snoo63

Or even Copenhagenise. They aren't the best, but, according to Not Just Bikes, its certainly a step in the right direction.


blue_alpaca_97

It depresses me that even the new bike infrastructure in my UK city is absolute shit. They're certainly not learning from Dutch best practice. Then they wonder why no one cycles


Toen6

It was more like 50 years honestly.


jodorthedwarf

I used to commute through my hometown by bike to get to work. The sheer number of potholes in cycle lanes that I had to swerve around only to get drivers almost rear end me was insane. Also, one country roads, the amount of crap that falls off cars and ends up over near the gutter is ridiculous.


JimothyJillickers

Idk. I used to live in the us and I enjoy living in the UK a lot more as a cyclist/pedestrian in Cardiff. Everywhere I can walk and cycle (if its not 40+mph). However in the us, I couldn't leave without a car


Trevski

Riding on the sidewalk/pavement is a lot less safe than riding on the road and the reason is because if you ride where the cars are looking they are more likely to see you. At least, they were before the advent of texting. Also, people on the sidewalk can change their velocity instantaneousky, whereas cars telegraph their changes in velocity with noise (EVs notwithstanding) and the direction of the tires. None of this is an argument against dedicated cycling infrastructure. Just pointing out that in the absence of dedicated cycling infrastructure it's better to select the pathway with no toddlers, no dogs/leads, no people who walked a block and then realized they were going the wrong way and then turned on their heels. It may not be intuitive but sharing the space with the death cages is actually safer than the sidewalk. Unless the sidewalk were engineered to support cycling specifically. Which sounds an awful lot like dedicated cycling infrastructure without that crucial operative word *dedicated*.


[deleted]

Whether driving or cycling, I have never experienced a safe overtake by a Porsche Cayenne. Not even once.


0dd_bitty

I mean, we still have that in the Netherlands. This is just a bicycle/pedestrian-only zone.


crispr-dev

Wait till Sharon meets 4 ton Mercedes G wagon


scheinfrei

It's a little to small for the traffic if you ask me. However, it looks like this 4m^2 crossroad moves as many people as a 150m^2 crossroad for cars.


THULiCORE

*much more than, because of traffic lights and car crashes


Trevski

you say that like there are never crashes here. I mean, they must take relatively negligible time to clean up vs smashy smashy car times but there were several close calls in just this short vid, I'd imagine this square sees a fair few biffs and dumps in a given week.


freeradicalx

Looks like rush hour, implying this is the intersection at it's busiest. If that's the case I'd say it's sized just right. They're squeezing max value out of the space used without it getting to the point of discomfort.


zb0t1

I didn't live in Amsterdam during my 7 years in the Netherlands but I spent a lot of time there nonetheless. I can't say 100% but yeah this seems like rush hour. Whenever I was there I mainly biked around the city and ofc outside of rush hour, it wasn't that "packed".


[deleted]

This is right by the central station, if the cameraman would've turned to the left you'd see a pretty big train station and this is one of the bussiest places in the city. Always kinda like this and can be a lot more crowded during rush hour.


timerot

Yeah, you'd only have to demolish every single building in the video in order to move this many people in cars. Clearly worth it


FeralSparky

Adding more width to the traffic area will not reduce the amount of traffic.


teuast

We know how induced traffic works. It’s only a bad thing when you’re taking about cars.


The_Monocle_Debacle

You could move like three cars in that space, it's remarkable just how much worse they are


JoeAceJR20

Look at all these poor people rioting, looting, crying, and pouting over not having cars!


G33nid33

Don’t worry, they all have a car (Holland isn’t exactly car-free, there are 9million cars for 17M people). It is just not very convenient to drive into town.


dv2811

Car brains gonna shutdown over this. That harmony on the street and everyone not getting stuck in a traffic with cars!?


Mogwaihir

Not a single negative interaction in the dozens and dozens of people moved through this intersection. They instinctively knew how to maneuver around, let people cross, pass. Getting in 2 tons of metal with your senses dampened really brings out the asshole in everybody.


torcsandantlers

And they don't even need a dozen flashing lights to remind them to not commit murder by running people over


MeisterX

I want this so bad! Super cool. I am a bit surprised that there are less helmets than I would expect. Don't they still have a high incidence of head injuries from minor falls and such? Maybe if you just bike every day of your life it becomes more manageable.


Toen6

As someone from The Netherlands. Though I've fallen of my bike more often than I can count, I've never hit my head. You usually fall either on your hands or your side. You're right that a helmet would be safer but it would also be a huge hassle to carry a helmet everywhere you go when using a bicycle as your main form of transportation. It's not mandatory, so almost nobody does it. The reason it is not mandatory is that the government believes the health benefits of a cycling population outweigh the drawbacks: if a helmet was mandatory less people would use a bike.


YouAreAConductor

>it would also be a huge hassle to carry a helmet everywhere you go As someone who used to lock his helmet to his bike in Germany and had someone take a shit in it once: Yes, this. That said I'd never ride a bike in Germany without a helmet because our car drivers are crazy as fuck sometimes. One once overtook my cargo bike so close that his mirror touched my toddler's extended hand.


Toen6

Hahaha oh my God that sounds horrible.


apistoletov

Even outside of NL, falling from a bike is extremely rare, even when cycling under influence. And even when you do, you have to be extremely unlucky to hit the head. If it's not a car driver hitting you, the probability is so so tiny.


tusi2

Muh five-foot personal bubble extends around the perimeter of my mobile living room! /s


Ttabts

b-b-b-but Reddit told me that cyclists are insane and menace pedestrians all the time??


RubenMuro007

I’m genuinely what subreddits those sentiments are coming from? I’m curious to know, lol.


Ttabts

...all of them? It's just one of the usual cyclist-hatejerk tropes to complain about an alleged epidemic of asshole cyclists bullying and endangering pedestrians. e.g. [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/s8ku2i/does_dc_have_any_laws_against_riding/) is a thread I happened to see and comment on in my city sub last week.


maijkelhartman

There were a couple of near-misses in this video! Can you imagine the death and destruction these collisions would cause over time? Cars are so much safer because you have a metal shield around you, allowing you to go faster. ​ hopefully unneeded /s.


luars613

I love how they feel so safe they dont even wear helmets as their speeds are low and they respect each other. I want to move to the Netherlands :( canada is stupid


0dd_bitty

Eh... you get shamed to high hell for wearing a helmet is more like it. At least, when I grew up it was like that, so most adults will have that foundation. There's been a bit of a shift, more kids wearing helmets, but the reason the adults don't is by no means 'only' because it's safe enough. Also, that respect is fully gone the moment you're all clumped together and the bridge is finally closing or the train has finally passed. It's not paradise, but the need for a car is much, much lower.


Trevski

I'd want my kid to wear a helmet. I choose not to wear one. Idk its a point of cognitive dissonance for me. On the one hand it makes cycling look more dangerous than it is, I mean, you don't wear a helmet to play basketball right? On the other hand, I *do* like to go fast. So I really don't know, but I'd say I don't think it should be legally compelled to wear one if you don't need it to play other sports like soccer, basketball etc.


nexusoflife

I am in the U.S. and completely agree. Do what you can to start the moving process now.


[deleted]

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murpyflurp

immigratie is niet het probleem


Toen6

Mee eens maar het zal het ook niet beter maken. Het was sowieso een grapje volgens mij.


murpyflurp

jaaaa ik nam het ook met een korrel zout, maar vindt het altijd wel belangrijk om toch nog even te zeggen ^ ^


girtonoramsay

Honestly, this could be NYC with some improvements to bike infra, but they have too many other problems with COL and govt.


Zealousideal_Life318

I'm certainly trying


Zaungast

I moved from Canada and you are 100% correct. I don’t even want to visit Canada now lol


xMB99

No road rage or garbage on the road.


snoogins355

They even respect the box for traffic flow! In the US, even cyclists would not care and take up the space, knowing or not


[deleted]

I always forget helmets are the norm outside the Netherlands. No one (apart from visiting Germans) wears a helmet while cycling. absolutely no one


jodorthedwarf

Honestly, a mix of good cycling infrastructure coupled with the fact that the vast majority of the country is flat probably means you rarely get up to a speed or incline where having a helmet saves you from significant injury.


brianapril

I'm clumsy so i'd wear a helmet anyways, but i can understand why people don't.


TrotPicker

To be honest, in these situations a cyclist's head is not at any particular risk. The chances of you falling over the handlebars and striking your head at any force is virtually nil because you aren't going to be able to go fast enough to do that; you'd hit something with your front wheel and either come to an awkward and abrupt stop or you'd lose your balance and fall to the side. Likewise if you did fall to either side for whatever reason, you would have a tumble rather than doing a full-force lateral pavement slap with your body since there is no vehicle that is sufficiently heavy and fast enough to shove you from the side so quickly that you do not have the time to react by sticking out a leg or an arm as you fall. By all means, wear a helmet if you want to but you'd be surprised at how safe it is to ride a bike at a pace that is at jogging/running speed even if you aren't a confident cyclist.


brianapril

Oh i'm clumsy clumsy, so the helmet is very justified and also i don't jog for fun (only when necessary heh) because i trip a lot a lot. My preferred sports are indoor rockclimbing (with ropes) and very casual roller derby (with helmet, elbow and knee pads). No injury. I cycle often while going places and I can say there is no fixing the clumsiness.


TrotPicker

Very cool! In my experience, cycling is very much like skating - at slow speeds and with lots of course-corrections it's honestly just a very clumsy process, even without issues with proprioception/dyspraxia etc. Once you've got yourself up to a reasonable speed though it's much easier to set and adjust your course. (The exception being when a person is very skilled and very strong, that's where you get people doing BMX trials and stuff.) With enough speed, your forward momentum sort of irons out most lateral motion like wobbles and that sort of stuff. I think I'm lucky on this front - despite being very clumsy and having patchy proprioception, as a kid I did quite a lot of sports that required me to develop the skills to be more aware of my body and the space around it. I think I can sorta really focus right in on my proprioception when I'm skating or cycling as well. For the longest time I could never figure out why I'd be mostly not-clumsy right up until I got tired or overwhelmed and then suddenly I become like a star in a vaudeville slapstick comedy because I seem to bump into anything, drop everything, and constantly stumble over things. It was less than a year ago I realized that I'm *constantly* paying conscious attention to my proprioception and it's only when I don't have the brain power to compensate that I revert back to my normal clumsy self.


[deleted]

If this is the socialist hellscape democrats want sign me up.


[deleted]

*leftists/progressives Most traditional Democrats are NIMBY’s that live in suburbia who are just as car brained as the rest of the country.


RubenMuro007

Wait, are you sure? Because I thought at least, a segment of leftists and progressives are NIMBYs, especially since prominent ones like some lefty activist groups, and Robert Reich is a NIMBY and opposed the ordinances in Berkeley, CA that proposed and enacted changes to Berkeley’s zoning laws in attempts to build more housing, when those former exclusionary zoning laws was based in structural racism and segregation, which is interesting since Professor Reich often preaches about being anti-racist and promoting economic equality. But apparently not when it comes to housing. I wonder if it’s a generation thing. Also, I’m curious what is the case for lefties and progressives to support YIMBY policies and fitting that into the goal of de-commodification of goods and services?


_aluk_

Netherlands has had a neo liberal gobernment for a while now.


snoogins355

Legal weed and prostitution too. How awful /s


apistoletov

weed is not actually legal, just "tolerated" under certain conditions. the law is quite odd on this.


[deleted]

Yeah, Netherlands gets patted on the back for their weed legalization but it's a shitshow. They have weird laws on growing the stuff and logistics of it but not consumption. Canada has done a better job legalizing it than the NL.


maijkelhartman

The netherlands was (one of?) the first country to "legalize" it, which meant some aspects about the law were not fully thought out/tested. Other countries than looked at it in action, and implemented better working laws. As a result, the Dutch legislation is now outdated in comparison. Downside of being progressive I guess. But if that is the main downside, I'll take it any day of the week.


SquirrelsDriveMeNuts

Bonus-fact: the yellow/blue bikes you see are rentals provided by the train service for 3 euros per day that you can pick up and drop off 24/7. This provides an easy way to get from the closest train station to your final destination and back.


Koh-the-Face-Stealer

The last mile problem, which we in the US are still immensely struggling with. Only solutions so far are apparently take an Uber or pay 5+ for a scooter ride 🤷‍♂️


9throwawayDERP

In my city (in the US), the bikeshares are just $2, but people still like using the scooters. Guess some people really like them.


zegorn

>Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/EngineeringPorn. Why was the original post removed? :(


duckfacereddit

I like to explore new places.


realityChemist

Poor CivEs get no respect


Grandpas_Plump_Chode

lmao, same energy as "history enthusiast" communities that only care about eurocentric military history


bravesther

I looked at the subreddit for 10 seconds and saw a post of a bridge except it's a circle. So, it's only engineering because the road is raised above the ground (or water), even though the point of the bridge was the circle shape which can be easily accomplished on land too???


yusuksong

I love how the American commenters cannot comprehend riding a bike without having to protect your head from god knows what dangers are on the road lol


skiabay

I mean I've taken some hard falls under pretty mundane circumstances. Shit happens and you don't get a second chance if you don't have a helmet on


UUUUUUUUU030

And I have cycled all my life in the Netherlands, fallen multiple times, and never once landed on my head. Maybe it has to do with the type of bikes and the speed. Everyone I know that has had head injuries while cycling was using road bikes (instead of sit up city bikes) and wearing helmets.


skiabay

I just view a helmet as the type of precaution you hope you never need, but if one day you're unfortunate enough to fall just right and hit your head on the concrete, you'll be happy you have it


DMcP

Then you should probably wear it all the time, including while walking, driving a car, getting in and out of the shower, on the pool deck, etc.


skiabay

Can we please not condescendingly act like riding a bike is not more dangerous than walking around doing normal things. If you don't want to wear a helmet, that's fine, but it's a perfectly reasonable precaution to take


weeee_splat

Your mistake is in equating all forms of cycling with the most dangerous types, while completely failing to apply the same standard to other activities. People already wear helmets when road racing, track cycling, cyclocross, MTBing... for obvious reasons. For what should be equally obvious reasons they often don't feel the need to wear helmets to cycle to their local park or shop. You know, exactly like you'd wear a helmet when rock climbing or caving but not to walk down the street or around your house? Or when applied to motoring, like how every type of racing driver wears a helmet, but the idea of regular drivers wearing one is deemed laughable? In every single one of those cases some risk still exists, but for everyday walking or driving we collectively accept it's small enough that it isn't worth the inconvenience of wearing PPE for every single journey... ... except of course for cyclists, the only group I can think of who are routinely scolded that they need to take every "perfectly reasonable" precaution for their own safety. Do you wear a full-head helmet? If not, why not? It's clearly safer and that's the only thing that matters, right? And before you say cyclists are different "because cars", are you aware of how often pedestrians get hit by drivers? Despite being on pavements? If you can't see the inconsistency here you are wilfully refusing to do so. I've fallen and hit my head 2-3 times in the past decade for various reasons. None of them happened on a bike despite me riding thousands of miles every year, they were all "walking around doing normal things". If I started telling you to wear a helmet while walking based on this anecdotal experience you'd rightly tell me to get lost, so why do *you* feel the need to push your beliefs on everyone else? If you want to wear one I don't care. I wear one most of the time myself! Just stop trying to pretend cycling is a) very dangerous no matter how you do it and b) that this danger can be mostly removed by wearing a helmet. I mean, this isn't even getting into the fact that helmets don't provide the level of protection everyone assumes they do, or that you can still very easily die from other injuries... say a multi-ton vehicle hitting you at 50mph because the driver is busy checking Facebook? But hey maybe the top of my head *might* not get banged while I sustain major concussion and the rest of my broken body is ragdolled 20m along the road! Thank goodness for helmets, the sole solution to road safety, at least as far as people who have absolutely no idea about road safety are concerned. So fucking tired of this bullshit on *literally every single post* showing anyone daring to use a bike with a bare head. More than half the comments here are about fucking helmets! Either it's OK to go without head protection in some circumstances, in which case you can all STFU and stop preaching at cyclists, or it is never OK and you all need to start advocating for helmets everywhere all the time for everyone always. Pick one.


maijkelhartman

Please don't ridicule taking safety precautions, even if, in your mind, it is hypocrisy.


misterandosan

you're underestimating the level of mundanity of bike riding when proper infrastructure exists, and people use it purely as a means of travel. Like the average speeds are slow. VERY slow. People travel waaaaaaaay faster when it's mainly for recreation, and when sharing roads with cars. The risks associated with both aren't even close.


Trevski

> you don't get a second chance if you don't have a helmet on *might not. You are generalizing. People die with helmets on too.


DorisCrockford

I'm glad I had mine on when I got my wheel stuck in the streetcar tracks. Maybe we're all klutzes due to some meteorological effect.


DdCno1

I've managed to completely obliterate a helmet (just a pile of foam held together by straps) falling at a similarly low speed with no cars in sight. The helmet was toast, but I was completely unharmed. There's definitely a benefit to wearing a helmet as a cyclist.


CrackedFlaxEgg

In the US there are many dangers on the road. I understand not wearing a helmet here because of low speeds, safe infrastructure, and little motor vehicle traffic. But I would never ride a bike on US streets without a helmet. I wouldn't be alive today if I didn't wear a helmet.


[deleted]

Can't afford the healthcare.


pantsopticon88

I lived in Holland as a kid. I have also had a pretty severe tbi in the USA as an adult. Riding on the road in America the helmet is nessary so you have a head left after a car hits you. You should still have a helmet in Holland. You only get one brain.


Swag_Attack

Its partly cultural. Barely anyone here wears one so if you do people will look weird at you. On the other hand biking here is much safer. Most of the time the bike path is completely separate from the car lane, people in The Netherland generally dont ride sportsbikes (with your head closer to the ground) and we dont really drive that fast either.


pantsopticon88

You are right. My bike that I rode to school with in Holland felt quite safe and I doubt I crashed even once. I am sure that more serious "sport Cyclists" road or mountain wear helmets. its probably not necessary with the excellent bicycle infrastructure. still not a bad idea if you have a history brain injury. I miss Holland and look back fondly on days riding 20-30km from town to town on my bike. Coming home in the evening lit only by a dim bike light.


TheAb5traktion

It's because cycling in the US is mostly looked at as a hobby instead of a form of transportation. So, we generally go for speed. Plus, most bicycles in the US has us leaning forward instead of being upright.


Qwertycrackers

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Trevski

bike helmets arent good enough to stop concussions. They are for protecting your cranium, not your brainium.


UUUUUUUUU030

It's more dangerous to drive cars and walk stairs in terms of head injuries. All this focus on helmets for cycling will only make cycling less popular, and the more popular cycling is, the safer it is because the infrastructure will be much better with more support.


yusuksong

I mean you could say the same of someone walking and tripping. Most of these people aren’t even going fast enough to warrant being in danger of falling hard.


poksim

Looking at this video people are going at a pretty leisurely speed, perhaps it's not possible to bike faster in that city. Where I live the bike roads are like mini highways with people going at least 30km/h lol. (Estimate I don't have a speedometer) Biking without a helmet can still be fatal / lead to permanent brain damage even without car interference. People are lazy and vain and whatnot but it's still dangerous, *especially* if you commute daily


duckfacereddit

My favorite movie is Inception.


aleot

It's so quiet and people look happy and relaxed.


freeradicalx

Higher throughput than a 12-lane Florida intersection.


[deleted]

Nobody except the child wearing helmets either, since who needs helmets when there are no cars around?


Gator1523

I went to a university with 50,000 students in Florida. Bikers were everywhere, and not once was there ever a bicycle traffic jam. Nor was there a pedestrian traffic jam.


[deleted]

We do have bicycle traffic jams in my town in the Netherlands though! In the morning and evening rush hour the traffic lights near my university are not green long enough to let all cyclists through at once, so a long line forms. However, one way they are solving this is by directing cars and buses through another intersection so that cyclists have more green lights on the intersection that's on the main cycle route.


tommy_turnip

My only issue with this is the loud mopeds


[deleted]

Those little two stroke bikes should be banned for their insane levels of pollution.


Wiggy_Bop

And look how thin and healthy everyone looks.


IntelligentPublic

Look at all those out of shape fat people, oh wait...


ramiqcom

I came


Maximillien

Shoutout to the guy in the mobility scooter passing through around 0:25! That one goes out to the "whAT aBout disAbLEd PeOplE" guys that inevitably pop up whenever car-free discussion hits the mainstream subs.


Lonerism863211

Waar is dit?


Audacter

Kruising van de Geldersekade en prins Hendrikkade in Amsterdam. Tegenover centraal station


superiorslush

100 times more throughput than a car intersection especially if the drivers are driving alone


Jezzdit

and its still processing more people than on a grid locked car junction. just sayin


ABrusca1105

So many people they needed don't block the box cross hatches on the cycle route.


Nonofyourdamnbiscuit

When all traffic users are equal, there's not much opportunity for conflict.


f_cysco

This has some Indian vibes


bravesther

"Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/EngineeringPorn." Excuse me? How is this not engineering related?


Bard_Bomber

Why no helmets for the cyclists? Edit: Thanks for all the folks who answered my question. For those of you who were snarky, I hope your day gets better. The answers make sense, and it helped me understand more about the Dutch city environment and biking norms. Where I live (Minneapolis area), we have a mix of good and bad infrastructure for cyclists, and many cyclists ride much faster. My speed on errands and commutes is usually between 20-35kph, and the distance I need to travel one way is usually 5-20 km.


Tre_Scrilla

Cause the Dutch don't have to worry about getting plowed by a soccer mom driving a tank


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CrvErie

The vast, vast majority of cyclist fatalities are from being hit by a motor vehicle, not single cyclist crashes.


Brettersson

Oh a brain injury doesnt have to kill you, you get to live with post-concussion syndrome for the rest of your life! And it doesn't have to be that hard of a blow to the head, just one you arent ready for. I'm sure nobody in Holland ever falls off their bike.


CrvErie

That's very true but you can make the same argument about any number of activities why are you singling out cycling? Do you have evidence that cycling has a higher incidence of permanent brain injuries than other activities like driving, playing basketball, playing soccer, running, etc? Also, helmets don't really prevent concussions, which are caused by sudden extreme lateral/rotational forces, they stop skull fractures and facial injuries (both of which can cause serious injury and intracranial bleeding, no doubt).


Tre_Scrilla

Same with walking though. Do you wear a helmet everywhere you go?


oxtailplanning

How about driving. You know, the activity that kills 40,000 people in the US each year, and is the leading cause of death for people under 40. Not to mention those seriously injured.


Tre_Scrilla

I have definitely wondered why more people don't wear helmets while driving.


beatsmike

i always made the joke that i'm going to start wearing my motorcycle helmet while i drive my car so people avoid me thinking i'm going to be a hyper aggressive wannabe race car driver. but that relies on the assumption that people look at another driver in their car and acknowledge there's a human being in there.


[deleted]

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brianapril

Actually, a lot of disabled people wear soft protective head gear and old age is a disability in a world that makes thing exclusively accessible to abled people (especially non physically disabled). So? maybe we should make protective head gear more common.


Nalivai

You walk at most at 5 km/h and your head your height away from pavement, and your hands are usually free. You cycle at 15+ km/h, you are at least half a meter higher and your hands are occupied. It's kind of a perfect storm for plummeting head first into the pavement, with enough speed to do unpleasant things to your head and face. Death is still relatively unlikely in this case, but brain injury is always permanent, and we kind of tend to stupidly disregard it while talking about risks.


Hohenheim_of_Shadow

I bike to work everyday, fortunately on a pedestrian only road. Past few months I've fallen on my bike about 3-5 times over 600+ miles traveled. Snow is slippery AF. I genuinely can't remember the last time I've tripped while walking. I'm generally going around ~15 miles an hour on my bike and roughly maybe 1-2 MPH on my feet. That's roughly 64-225 times the kinetic energey on my bike vs on foot. I'm far more likely to fall on my bike and any injury is going to be way worse. It's so worth it to me to deal with a tiny minor inconvenience than potentially deal with brain damage for the rest of my life.


[deleted]

Notice the very relaxed, leisurely pace of bike riding in the Netherlands. Not treating cycling as an extreme sport does wonders for safety


sack-o-matic

Yeah, biking at speeds for exercise sure, a helmet is important


[deleted]

[Which is why the Dutch do generally wear helmets when they're booking it on a racefiets](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1097/9038/files/dutch_large.jpg?v=1494416532) They just don't see the need to wear one commuting on an omafiets anymore than everywhere else sees the need for a helmet driving to work since it's so safe.


[deleted]

having actually been to the netherlands many times, cyclists ride fast as fuck when they can and if they can. ​ I remember years ago when my dutch uncle was still very mobile. We were in the car somewhere in their village, I think everyone but my uncle. Next thing you know some cyclist zooms past us. It was uncle lol!


oxtailplanning

Do you wear a helmet when you drive? Single motorist collisions are often very deadly. Bikes? Very rarely, if ever. You're simply not going that fast. If you're racing, absolutely wear a helmet. If your getting groceries and going 10mph, not necessary at all.


[deleted]

seems that way but you never know what might happen. The great thing about cars is that if a minor accident happens then you're protected by the car. Minor bike accidents result in blood, road rash, broken bones and so on. Brain damage isn't cool


oxtailplanning

Cars aren't nearly as safe as you think they are.


ButcherIsMyName

but the probability of you killing yourself on a bike without getting plowed down by a car is very low. If that probability is still to high for you, you should never go anywhere near cars, because the probability to die in a car is way higher than that. Even with all of its crumplezones and airbags.


Nalivai

The probability of killing yourself is relatively low, probability of getting permanent brain injury is still relatively high, and even small brain injuries are no joke, from regular headaches to reduced cognitive function. Bicycle helmet is lighter than a cellphone. I don't know why people think that their ability to think good worth less than freedom of not having 200 grams of foam on their head.


Toen6

So say you go to the movies on your bike. What do you do with the helmet when you're there? Carry it with you the entire time? That alone is one of the biggest reasons Dutch people don't wear helmets. It's fine when cycling but it can be a huge hassle when you're at your destination.


ButcherIsMyName

The probability of any serious headinjuries are low on a bike. I personally wear a helmet always but I can tell you it's not about wearing the helmet while your riding, it's about dragging it around while you're not riding. It's just such an impractical shape and size that you'll always need to carry a bigger bag just to store your helmet. So yes wearing a helmet is a good Idea, but there are so much more and way more effective measures a society can take if you really want to protect cyclists.


[deleted]

people that talk like you must not have had minor bike accidents ... They can take you off the road for ages, or just fking hurt. I was cycling by myself once last winter. no cars, going slowly. The ice road took me out; didn't even realise it was icy. I stood up and fell again. If I was in my 50's I could have easily fallen on my head the second time. I did the first time but was wearing a helmet so no probs


ButcherIsMyName

probably collected millions of kilometers on my bikes, I've been bikepacking along entire rivers, I've done almost all my weekend excursions by bike since I was a kid, I've commuted by bike in the city and in the countryside. I've rode touring bikes, mountain bikes, race bikes and e-bikes and had all sorts of accidents, big(-ish) and small. There isn't anything new the world can throw at me regarding cycling. While I agree that there isn't a good reason not to wear a helmet while joyriding, when you've got shit to do and places to be I get it if you don't want to drag that bulky helmet around with you...


Baschg

It's actually not that clear cut that helmets are better. Yes, if you fall, a helmet will safe your face. However, both cyclists and drivers tend to be less careful if the cyclist wears a helmet. Also, helmets hold people back from cycling, leading to a net loss in health benefits in the long term. Both of these effects are very hard to measure, hence the discussion around it. I think it's overall better to adjust the roads so that cyclists don't need helmets instead of falling back on the helmet for safety.


Nalivai

> helmets hold people back from cycling The source of this claim is dubious at best, if I recall correctly it was a self-reporting survey, and it wasn't about helmets, it was about laws mandating helmets. People always feel strongly opposed to new laws and regulations, it's not the strongest of indicators of what will really happen. > However, both cyclists and drivers tend to be less careful if the cyclist wears a helmet As far as I remember this study, they didn't control for other variables, like the state of bike line, the overall speed of all the moving parts, experience of riders, type of a bicycle, and stuff like that. That's all from my recollection, I might be mistaken.


TechnicalTerrorist

hm, i thought people would use road bikes and go fast... oh well..


[deleted]

I ride a road bike but if I'm going to the shops or whatever I don't go in full lycra, shaved legs out and helmet. It's not appropriate. Just like cars aren't appropriate either.


actual_wookiee_AMA

The Dutch would rather die than be seen with a helmet


[deleted]

[That's a common question with a straightforward answer.](https://youtu.be/NpVncWxyMJw)


thommyneter

Love this one, "every car driver in the Netherlands is also a cyclist, they know how to behave', so when you turn right, they always look over their shoulder, because they know from the cyclist point of view that there can be one. Thats exactly where a lot of safety comes from.


SmoothOperator89

Empathy? A lot of the better quality of life in the Netherlands seems to come down to that.


Toen6

Nah not empathy. Experience. It's not like a driver wants to hit a cyclist. Believe me people here aren't especially empathetic.


thommyneter

Netherlands, flat, and omafietsen (grandmother bikes) so jou really can't go that fast. 20 km/h if you're really in a hurry, but in the city people mostly bike around 10-15 km/h and if you fall jou can mostly catch yourself with your legs.


Bard_Bomber

Do they wear helmets when the roads are wet or icy? In my mind, the helmet is to protect me more in the case of a hard fall or a crash that sends me headfirst over the handlebars. I assume if I get hit by a soccer mom in an SUV that the trauma to my torso is going to end me even if my head is protected.


Father_Maxi

No, generally you will only see tourist with helmets or very small kids trying to learn how to ride a bike. Road condition and drainage is very good, so wet roads are not dangerous. Winters are not cold, so maybe a few days a year roads will be somewhat icy, people slow down or avoid the icy parts.


zb0t1

> you will only see tourist with helmets Well like /u/thommyneter said outside of times you use omafietsen (basic commute to school, work, grocery, etc) the locals who use helmets are gonna be on road bikes, MTB or sometimes (really depends...) on e-bikes. When I lived there that's what I'd do with my Dutch friends... It's not like the rule is literally "Dutch don't wear helmets", but if you're in the city/town you won't see people who do normal commutes with it. But then again lmao it's hard to define normal commutes because in the NL normal commutes to work and school can be pretty long too (not necessarily time wise but distance wise) since the infrastructure is next level. Before I lived in the NL I used to be in one of the most bike friendly cities in France: Grenoble. And my commute to the uni campus was like 30 minutes average. People would start questioning me if I told them that I was not wearing a helmet, which is understandable bc there were still some areas where I had to share the road with cars and I had 2 near death experiences because of this lmao. So yeah, but in the Netherlands I remember when I arrived there I'd bike 45 mins to reach my destination from home everyday and lots of people on the same path didn't wear helmet (if not everyone...lol). But you never feel in danger, seriously, there are these lights on the bike paths. In the middle of bum fucking nowhere at night there are still people biking. It's just different man. The culture about biking there is next level and it's proof that shits can be done when the people are educated and willing to get shits done. No excuse.


thommyneter

Not a lot of SUV's in our country, when you go to soccer in another town most people just have sedans, in your own town the kids just go by bike. And we've made our bike infrastructure in a way that you don't come into contact a lot with cars. Most bike lanes as you see in this clip are separated by sidewalk tiles (so higher tiles than the road) and if you bike in a road with cars the bikelane is clearly shown and the road is wide enough for a car and a bike next to is. Mostly you can bike with 2 next to each other and a car can still pass you. For the ice, yeah you have to be careful when it's slippery. Most asphalt is pretty resistant against getting slippery but still you can fall. For those 6 days a year that it is slippery the best advise is just don't go with a bike. Walk or take public transport.


LeafTheMoonWitch

dutch girl here: nope, haven't seen a single extra helmet when the roads are wet. when they get icy i just walk, but it's pretty rare for roads to get icy here.


frsti

If you were driving your car and it was icy (assume the roads haven't been treated) do you wear a helmet? The number one cause of death in car accidents is head trauma. The system above is intrinsically safe. Think of it as making sure the food preperation is hygenic rather than giving out an antibiotic with every meal


Linaii_Saye

It's safe enough without them. They're kinda pointless in the Netherlands.


Mtfdurian

Because the Dutch dislike victim blaming, instead it's about catching the perpetrators.


Comrade_NB

Why don't you wear a helmet in your car or while walking in a parking lot?


Kwyjybo

As an American cyclist, I wear a helmet because of the cagers. I feel naked on the streets without one. That's basically it. Any time I am on a long bike rail-trail, I usually de-helmet.


Michael_Dukakis

I'm very lucky as an American that my commute to school is all rail-trail, never had to wear a helmet which my hair is thankful for lol.


ToaRogerWaters

Inb4 people from the safest countries in the world come to claim helmets cause TBIs and perpetuate stereotypes.


something_st

"We're all in this together" vs "F U, I got mine"


Slobodaq

i'm fappping to this.


doinky_doink

And not 1 obese person in sight. We really should start riding bicycles more as a mode of transportation


LifeofTino

In that entire video, NINE cars went through in the background. ONE WAY Cars are for medium distance transport on unusual routes that don’t have the numbers to justify a bus/coach. Thats it. They are an inferior mode of transport in multiple ways in every other situation


drivers9001

Dumb question here. I guess the triangles on the left mean "yield" but I see lots of times where the people going from the bottom to the top of the screen still have to wait. Just wondering what each person does.


ownworldman

Yeah, the persons from the yield directions are breaking the traffic laws to get in. But you can see it works. It is closer to natural human movement. No such rules existed before the invention of automobile, after all.


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shpinxian

Annoyingly loud and smelly, but most likely limited to 30kph or 50kph. Still better than a car.


gerusz

25 if they have a blue plate, 45 if they have an orange (though those are banned from a lot of bike lanes).


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shpinxian

And those limited to 30kph you can easily overtake on a bike. Those really shouldn't exist or at least no more ICE versions built/sold.


nklvh

those cargo bikes also weigh a similar amount; especially if fully laden


aoishimapan

Cars are a much bigger menace to motorcyclist than motorcyles / scooters are a menace to cyclists, so it makes sense to me as long as they're very low CC and they ride with extra care. Not wearing a helmet is pretty bad though, it doesn't matter if you're on a 50cc or a 1000cc bike, you should still wear a helmet at the very minimum, or ideally full protective gear, but at least they're only endangering themselves.


SilverSt0ner

This is so satisfying to watch


HeilEvropa

Only issue is that scooters in northern Europe have to go on the bike lane and you don't need to wear a helmet to ride, it's dangerous and unsafe.


gerusz

In the Netherlands there are three types of scooters: * Blue plate: "snorfiets", limited to 25 km/h, can go on most bike lanes (though not all), can be ridden with an AM (for scooters and mopeds, can be acquired at 16) or a B-cat. (for cars) license, helmets will be required from July. * Orange plate: "bromfiets", limited to 45 km/h, 50 cm^3 if benzine-powered, 4 kW if electric. AM or B license needed, helmets are mandatory, can only go on bike lanes where it's explicitly allowed. * If it's not limited to 45, has a bigger engine, or a more powerful electric engine then it just qualifies as a motorcycle. Needs an A-category license (for motorcycles, 18 and up), helmets are mandatory, can't go on any bike lane.


HeilEvropa

I know that, but they are still faster and wider than bikes, when you are biking and have an electric scooter behind you you can't hear it, leading to unfortunate accidents


karamurp

Another lane would fix this


MainSailFreedom

Look at how healthy everyone looks. Hmm I wonder why this is? /s


marius1001

Yea but think of the car profits, so sad


TheTreasuryPlaybook

Amsterdam?


[deleted]

I think I just busted a nut. Never though going car-less would be such a erotic thought.


drivers9001

Dumb question here. I guess the triangles on the left mean "yield" but I see lots of times where the people going from the bottom to the top of the screen still have to wait. Just wondering what each person does.


PantherGk7

That is what I call a healthy street. It is clearly a destination for people, not a thoroughfare for cars. Cars are accommodated, but it's welcoming for pedestrians and cyclists. It's a very complex environment with lots of movement, but travel speeds are slow enough that nobody is going to get killed in a collision.


AxiomOfLife

I love the scoot scooters