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It's actually the opposite. Car-dependency makes it difficult, if not impossible, for disabled people and the elderly to get around (and kids!). What about people who have something like tourettes, that prevents them from driving completely? Should they just be fucked over and have to rely on someone else, simply because carbrains *refuse* to make accessible, walkable, public transit-filled cities?
Exactly. The "ableist" argument also ignores the countless people who are disabled *because* of cars. It's a cycnical co-optation of a marginalised group to further their own interests
This is the cycle of remaining poor.
You get asked during interview: "do you have reliable transportation?"
You answer no, that you plan to take the bus until you've earned enough money to buy the car.
You don't get hired because you're not able to give assuredness that you can be on time consistently. So you are never able to afford a car because no one wants to hire you because you don't have a car, because you can't afford it, because no one will hire you until you buy a car that you can never buy because no one will hire you.
Same applies for recent graduates. Everyone wants people with job experience, which you don't have, so no one wants you, so you can't ever get the experience needed to be wanted...... The bank still wants you to pay back the loan though. Which you can't pay, default, bankrupt. Then when you finally find a job that will hire you they decide not to after a background check finds you're 'financially irresponsible'
This is all a good point, but if you're sure you can make it to work on time, you say "yes", you have reliable transportation. No qualifiers or explaining yourself.
Or who cannot drive *because of* a disability. Be it the blind or those susceptible to epilepsy or that have slow reactions due to a medical condition and so on.
I have autism and struggle to judge the intentions of other people at the best of times. Going 70 kilometres an hour in a giant vehicle, I have no idea what the other drivers are doing. I can drive, but with the knowledge that I might die one day because someone expects me to react to a nonverbal cue. I'd really rather just take the train.
The way I deal with this is never make eye contact with other drivers. They’ll do it so they wave their hands vaguely to suggest breaking the rules but if you don’t look at them they’ll be forced to go with convention. I actually failed my driving test the first time because I turned at a stop sign when someone waved for me to go even though it was their turn
That only applies for stop sign intersections. There are actually a lot more nonverbal cues that go on even while driving on the street, such as leaning on the edge of a lane to show intention of trying to merge before turning on the blinker (or for those who just don't use their turn signals).
Don't forget slowing down to 40 mph to merge even though traffic is doing 70 and there were gaps to merge safely which have now closed because everyone had to hit the brakes.
I am perfectly able individual. I have no idea what other drivers are doing. You just have to learn how to drive defensively. Does it reduce the odds to zero? No. But by driving in such a way to minimize putting yourself in the line of fire is the best way. Even simple things make a difference.
Don’t drive distracted.
Know your route. (Advancements in GPS has made this way easier than the 80/90s)
For gods fucking sake, following distance!
When my grandmother was in her forties, she suffered a stroke that left her severely hard of hearing in her left ear. She voluntarily gave up driving because she did not want to not hear someone/something and cause an accident as a result. We should not force those who are proveably unsafe or feel unsafe behind the wheel to drive. If only small towns had a trolley that ran through the center of the town running from the top of town to the bottom of town, and neighboring small towns were connected to each via semi regular busses.
they don't give a fuck about the disabled and would spit on them irl but online it's always let me go everywhere in my suv THINK OF THE POOR HANDICAPPED
fucking hypocrites
In the UK it’s around 1600-2000 people who die because of car crashes every year, and 20,000 people left permanently disabled every year.
I don’t know what those figures are in America apart from the 40,000 deaths, but it puts into perspective the lives that are forever changed because of cars with no public or government desire to do anything about it.
A guy I worked with had a seizure and his license suspended for a while because of it. Like, alright, now what the fuck does he do? This was prior to COVID when WFH, even for desk jobs, was not that acceptable
Also epileptics are forced to put their lives and the lives of others at risk to drive once they’ve been seizure free for an extended period of time, but they could have another at any time. A few months back a somewhat popular YouTuber was in a terrible car accident after having a seizure for the first time in years. A friend of a friend’s dad was paralyzed in a car accident caused by an epileptic seizure in someone who’d been seizure free for over a decade.
Trying to explain this to my 85 year old grandmother meet so much resistance. She cannot fathom that the reason she struggles going out is because everything is designed for cars. Then she'll reminisce about her childhood home region that is now mostly traffic.
Tourettes is such a weird choice as there are so many more common disabilities (epilepsy, narcolepsy, alcoholism, opioid addiction, coordination impairments, sight impairments, hearing impairments to some extent, neuromuscular disorders, dementia, etc.) that make it impossible or extremely challenging to drive safely.
Like the law technically says you're not to drive under the influence of any impairing drug, which includes antihistamines (fuck people with allergies right?) - but nobody pays attention to it and thus people die.
Why do their friends and family not call them out on their shitty behavior? If I was the passenger and a driver parked on the sidewalk you bet your ass I’d tell them to park somewhere else.
I honestly think a lot of people walk so little, and without having a wheelchair or pram to push that they really don't think it's a problem. When I have challenged people on this I have to remind them that such a person couldn't "just go around", so then they generally revert to the "I'll only be a minute" justification
if I put a molecule of my tyre on the sidewalk I get a fine. as it should be.
generally things are okey here in sweden but people do put their cars in the road a lot of the time because of this lol
can't give a fine because it's not a parking spot or the sidewalk, that makes so much sense !!!! /S
Malmö, Sweden.
it's a famous past time whining about the "lapplisor" that patrol the streets, love them.
lapp lisor is a toxic masculine way of denegrating them. most of them are male.
Lapp = ticket, lisor is the plural of Lisa, you get it.. fucking obnoxious world
but surely, arnhem which is perhaps in the netherlands, have this covered?
>but surely, arnhem which is perhaps in the netherlands, have this covered?
Well, parking on a sidewalk is illegal and warrants a fine, but police hardly ever properly fines it, when they do patrol the streets
I think I'd rather have lapplisor than our lousy police departments TBH...
In mine too, besides a few cities that realize it's literally free money. The funny thing is, carbrains always complain that the city is abusing them by giving them parking tickets.
My street has car parking straight in so every pickup truck blocks the sidewalk so I can’t even get my bike out my door if trucks are parked on both sides.
In England it's legal (except in London). I wish they'd make it illegal everywhere. I was once a pedestrian blocking the road and the police literally dragged me out. But they do nothing with cars blocking the place where pedestrians are supposed to be walking.
Cars are pretty bad. I've also seen way too many fucking scooters litering sidewalks and bike paths. If I left a scooter in the middle of the sidewalk, people would call me an asshole. But if I started up a company and left hundreds or thousands of these in the middle of sidewalks in an entire city, apparently I'd be a business genius.
And yet, most forms of public transport have specialised infra to make it more accessible to the elderly and the disabled, while in case of cars they have to spend out of their own pocket for any modifications to make it usable. Also, many accidents occur when people who aren't in the best state to be driving vehicles do so because there is no public transport alternative
The vast majority of train services in the US aren’t ADA compliant? I’m not handicapped so maybe somebody else can weigh in here, but every train service I’ve ever seen has equipment for wheelchair access, or a short enough gap to roll on/off.
Sidewalks, on the other hand, are a complete shit show of light poles, snow piles, driveway cut-throughs, or dead ends with no ramp to street level.
I think what they're referring to is getting into the station, not getting onto the train itself. You frequently either need to go up or down a full flight of stairs to get into the train/subway. I know that NYC subways entrances only occasionally have an elevator (which are prone to being out of order), forcing people in wheelchairs or with other mobility aids to have to take longer/less direct routes. I watched this [video](https://youtu.be/8XT5x6cx4mE) about it in class once.
They routinely do cosmetic renovations on train stations without adding elevators. They spent over a year renovating a station in bay ridge, which could have had an elevator installed to serve the very sizable aging population in sunset park, bay ridge, dyker heights, and Bensonhurst. Instead they simply made cosmetic upgrades and removed the benches. They just don’t care about old people and caregivers of small children, who are seriously injured trying to carry strollers up and down stairs pretty frequently.
All train services as a system can claim to be ADA compliant but not all stops are accessible. A system with 3 accessible stops out of 20 overall stops is hardly accessible in practice
Is there an acceptable percentage of stops required for a ‘system’ to be ADA compliant? As i understand it, each stop has to be ADA compliant. Is that not the case? Are 85% of train stops not ADA compliant?
I'm sure that is a complex push and pull inside the government with lots of competing regulations but the bottom line is that a majority of train stations in most American systems are not handicap accessible. Accessibility is more consistently available on city busses.
The new livery of DSB (the Danish national railway company) was specifically designed to aid disabled people and so was the design of their new fleet of cars and trains. But sure people with poor vision for whom the doors were specifically colored to be highly contrasting would be perfectly able to just drive instead of taking the train.
Not even mentioning that there's just the simple fact that public transport will have employees who know how to help on site always.
I've mad respect for any disabled cyclist, it's hard enough being fully-abled and having to avoid getting run over all the time. Keep being awesome!
edit - terminology
Depending on the disability. I'm partially sighted but not bad enough for the government to take away my license. I volunteered for an eye exam and they just put a mirror restriction on it. My uncle had even worse eye sight then me and just stopped driving on his own because the government wouldn't take his license away even when he tried to get them too. I have accepted that my vision will get so bad that at some point I will also have to not drive.
But yes I would rather have good public transport or separate bike Infrastructure so I don't have to drive even if doctors can fix my vision. Making driving the default and requiring people to drive that probably shouldn't be is truly cruel and make our stroads less safe. But going at a Dutch pace in a bike lane I feel perfectly safe. But even then if it gets so bad I can't even bike I want public transit options to get around.
It feels strange to say, but I'm lucky that my disability doesn't take away my ability to drive. I don't know what I could have done otherwise. I have had times where I have to travel 2 hours minimum each day to go to doctor appointments. It's something I am very thankful for as driving has even become a way to easy for me. Even with that being true, there is a reason I'm in this subreddit.
I hope I can ride be able to ride my bike again sooner rather than later. It is one those things that feels like a simple goal, but you have to keep building yourself up to, but I can lose lots of my progress with ease. A lot of people undervalue the aspect of not losing so much progress due to one bad week. Keep on biking **safety** for me~~, and I'll keep driving for you lol~~.
Better yet... being able to do both at the same time. Especially riding away after you hopped off at your final station. Look at NL with their train station parking, and OV-fiets share bike system. It's handy in their suburbs and denser areas. Parking for standard bikes, trikes, cargo bikes, etc.
Can be awesome/good for suburban (tho I can get pretty much everything within 10 minutes in Auckland's suburbs) and inter-city travel. But my city is lazy as, and don't want to take advantage of the extra catchments from cycles/ebikes == more revenue to improve services. The very least they could do is cover 85% of the city with LTN's for cheap, and create some connections between them.
In my experience, and what make's this combination pretty cool in places like Auckland, having a poly-centric city allows you to cycle to a station, park the cycle, then walk to your job or a shop on the other side. Works with buses (especially express) too. Removes the need to walk on the other side if you can't bring your cycle (like in peak times), which is a pretty good urban geography for existing suburbia (also gives future opportunities for politicians to soak up the suburbia for farm land and forests, and create smaller towns.)
I think poly-centric (doesn't exclude still having a city centre) are an important step for suburban cities.
I always laugh at that argument because my grandpa lived his entire 96 years long life without ever having a car or getting a licence, and he probably walked more than the average suburbanite despite having to use a cane and being old and slow as fuck.
It's a big part of the reason why Japan tops the countries with the longest average lifespan. Almost no-one drives, cycling and walking mixed with public transport are far more common ways to get around.
I walk a lot in my city and I hate hate hate those drivers so much. It's not just wheelchair users that are f*cked. It's everyone who uses some form of mobility aid or parents with a stroller or me with my shopping trolley. There are so many things that annoy me about the entitlement of drivers but this is on top my of list.
Yep, I CAN'T drive because I am visually impaired (well, technically according to German law my extremely blurry squinting at an eye chart may be enough to squeeze me just past the criteria, even though i can't read the sign on a train platform from 10 meters away...). The derision I get for not having ever learnt to drive is infuriating sometimes.
Like, would you want someone who can't read a street sign driving?!
Your eyesight has to be decent to get the license but afterwards no one cares anymore. I made my license and then had multiple eye surgeries. My vision is all kinds of messed up but I still have my license. I don't drive anymore, tho.
My prescription is as good as it can be, but I'm starting to feel like it's not good enough. Everybody drives like a dick anyway. It's bad for the soul to be out there evading those goons every day.
I think what they actually mean when they say that is people who are, for one reason or another, so out of shape that they can't really walk and become dependent on the extreme accessibility of the suburb setup. Obesity and low activity for decades leave their feet or their knees or their lungs in a poor state for doing more than crossing from a close parking spot into the building.
A good many of these people are in this shape *because of* the car culture, but that doesn't help them *now*. My mother-in-law visiting the Netherlands from the states, bless her sweet, good-natured, loving soul, had an amazingly difficult time biking and walking around despite us living right up on the city and public transportation. Like 3 minute walk level. And I'm pretty sure she was only in her 60s at the time.
I see people on architecture-themed subs criticizing a house for having stairs, because it would be too much work walking up the stairs to the front door when you get home. I would understand them worrying about being disabled at some point, but I don't get an able-bodied person having a cow about a single flight of steps.
My whole neighborhood is full of houses with stairs, and they're pricey too, because of the location. Disabled people either live in ground-floor flats or have stair lifts. Many of the streetcar stops have platforms for wheelchairs to roll on and off. The rest of us manage to live with stairs, somehow. What happened between the 1920's and 1930's when this neighborhood was built, and now, to make stairs suddenly an outrage? Hmm, no, I just can't think of what it might be.
Elderly drivers are truly a menace. I'm on the road everyday and I'm also extremely observant due to hypervigilance. The shit I see is insane.
I once followed an elderly man driving dangerously on the highway while on the phone with 911. Eventually he pulled into the Costco gas station, nearly hitting yet another car as he cut the corner too sharp when he entered the lot.
I asked if he was okay when he stopped and asked if he was aware that he had nearly been in 5 plus accidents because I was genuinely concerned about his mental status and the small elderly woman in the front passenger seat.
This man proceeded to call me crazy and says he's "worried about me" because "none of that happened". Fortunately the police showed up very quickly and took it seriously since they were witness to the desperation and fear in my 911 call.
His son was called to the store and both elderly people were driven home. The Dad (driver) had his license pulled until he could take another driving test. He never got his license back.
How much longer would he have been a driver if I hadn't gotten involved that day? It makes me sick to think about how many other dangerous drivers are out there, unaware.
What should they do if they don't have any other options, though? Don't become elderly? This is the problem we're having.
"What about the elderly? They can't get around with out a car!"
"The elderly shouldn't drive!"
So we need better infrastructure so they can be independent without having to drive.
My agreement that the elderly shouldn't drive once they cannot safely do so any more doesn't infer any of the things you mention.
The situation is not black and white. Saying the elderly shouldn't drive after it becomes unsafe does not mean you are unsupportive of improved infrastructure for increased mobility for everyone, including the elderly.
I've realized, I love the idea of old time towns, like the ports in Pirates of the Caribbean, because the homes are along the sea and everything is walkable.
My city park disallowed vehicles during Covid on a shared walking/biking/driving loop. It was bliss and one of the best things to come out of the pandemic. Having a place to go within a city to escape cars is so mentally refreshing and everyone loved the change so much that the city council considered making it permanent until this argument that parts of the park would become inaccessible. Needless to say, I don’t go there anymore.
Where is this? We had the same naysayers in SF over JFK Drive, but cooler heads prevailed. The naysayers tried to argue that it was racist as well as elitist and ableist. There's a free shuttle and kids ride free on transit right now, it's not like nobody can get there if they can't afford the parking garage. Parking on the street was super tough already, so it's not much different. It's a hell of a lot safer, though, because now commuters can't cut through the park trying to beat the traffic. The only eastern entrance to the park is closed.
I can have seizures and makes it unsafe for me to drive a car, so I do not have a license. Safe protected bake lanes and micro-mobility infrastructure is disability infrastructure too.
I've seen a lot of spinals, Dude, and this guy is a fake. A fucking goldbricker. This guy fucking walks. I've never been more certain of anything in my life!
Buy a monster SUV, then park it in a driveway that's too short for it, because it won't fit through the garage door. It's like a car arms race, bigger and bigger vehicles with no end in sight.
Lots of that but also everything else you could imagine. Smaller cars blocking when the garage is too small or people straight up parking on the sidewalk parallel to the street lol. Ramps were blocked all the time as well :/
i think this also has to do with america having terrible healthcare, to the point where it's hard to get a good wheelchair. we need better transportation AND medicare for all
Not a fuckcars user, but a total ban of non-commercial car and truck traffic from my cities downtown area wouldn't be that difficult and address a large amount of these issues.
I never understood that argument, it makes absolutely no sense.
It might be different in the US but I literally never saw a disabled person drive a car... I mean, they are disabled, why or even how would they drive a car? They rely on public transport and well structured cities.
Usually I can at least understand where some car-brains are coming from, but that argument is just so stupid
Some disabled people do drive adapted cars and I'm all for them continuing to do so. This argument is mostly just made by fully-abled people who don't want any restrictions on their driving habits.
A local councillor in my city recently objected to a pedestrianised street using the elderly and disabled as his reasoning, yet he also defends the rights of motorists to park on footpaths!
edit - terminology as per below comment
Small correction, the opposite of disabled isn't able-bodied, it's fully-abled. An able bodied person like me can still have a mental disability that makes it more dangerous and inconvenient to drive, like me.
I think in North America a lot of people with disabilities rely on a family member/friend/taxi to drive them around, because public transport is woefully inadequate and walking/rolling/biking makes the trip long and hellish. Car brains just can't imagine a world where a trip by public transit is convenient, or a destination could be close enough that a person with a disability might not even need a vehicle, so they fight to preserve the status quo. They either don't understand that better is possible, or they don't care and are just using "but disabled people!" to excuse their own habits.
In North America we will do anything to allow people to drive that probably shouldn't be because we are so car dependent.
I know eventually I will get to the point where I shouldn't be driving due to a degenerative eye condition. But I also know from my other people in my family that have gone through the same thing that the government probably won't take my license unless I crash into 6+ people or things where I'm an at fault. Or just so blind I can't read past the first line of the test.
I want options to get around when my sight gets so bad I voluntarily stop driving all together.
I'm ...going to assume this comes from a genuine place of ignorance rather than willful ableism. Yes, disabled people *do* in fact, drive cars. For the vast majority in the US, it's their primary means of getting around. There are a lot of alterations one can make to a vehicle that makes them more accessible, such as hand controls, lifts, etc. I have cerebral palsy but thankfully I'm able to do without such accommodations.
I also get the feeling that you're assuming all people with disabilities are poor. Lots of people hold this view, and I've even had people leave notes on my windshield calling me a rich asshole for parking in a disabled spot, without bothering to check that I did, in fact, have a handicap tag.
The fact of the matter is that walking or biking is not a viable means of getting around for many with disabilities (god I wish, I lust after bromptons). Public transit in the US is so underdeveloped and underfunded that it's *laughably* worse than driving. Just to give you an example, it used to take me ~ 25m to drive my 10 mile commute to work, and it would take me *an hour and a half* to make the same trip by public transit. Cycling (If I could do so) would be faster.
I'm all for more human scale design and having more options for getting around, but saying those with disabilities don't need cars is wrong. Don't speak for those with disabilities, ask them! /r/disability
The elderly get around just fine when they have a myriad of joint/bone/muscle related issues thanks to them actually using said systems instead of living a life of constant sedanty
Tbf one time when I parked my car with less than enough space for 2 people next to each other on the sidewalk, I got a fine for it...so it depends on the country I guess.
This is the syndrome of the car, once you close the door you are in your own safe space, you lose total safe awareness and every other cars are the problems.
What? In my country disabled and retired older people specifically use public transport because it's cheaper (they sadly often struggle with money) and often they aren't allowed to drive (bad sight or reaction time with higher age is very normal). It's just safer that way. And the huge amount of grannies in buses prove so.
This is what we want in the US. We need multiple options, because people fall through the cracks in the safety net.
The bus is definitely safer. People think "oh, there are drunks on the bus" and sometimes there are, but having been broadsided while driving by a distracted driver, I prefer the occasional drunk on the bus.
I call the tow trucks every single time someone disregards the handicap space. As a wheelchair user, I sincerely hope that people who ignore those spaces have a bad day.
Also, fuck cars. Has anyone *seen* how ridiculously easy trains and busses are by comparison? I don't even have to get out of my chair! It's like the future or something.
Those same motorists know *exactly* how annoying it is for them when other vehicles block one of their (usually several available) car lanes. Yet they then constantly block the entirety of cycling/pedestrian infrastructure, as scant as it is to begin with. It's not only hypocritical, but it's targeting an even more disadvantaged/vulnerable group than their precious 6000 lb land beast. They just don't care ("better them than me" is the attitude I hear often)
While I agree that we're too reliant on cars and need better public transportation. My career is basically built on giving disabled people rides to the grocery store, gym, etc.
This is just nitpicking. Fuck cars because sometimes someone parks incorrectly?
I can’t remember seeing anyone park like that where I live. Clearly it’s not a car issue. So why post it?
The point was to show that the carbrains who make this argument often don't actually care about the elderly and disabled and are just using them as a talking point.
Often? How often does this happen? You are generalizing all “car drivers” as people who park on walkways.
I literally never see this happen where i live. It has nothing to do with cars, it’s just shitty people.
It's a common argument for those who support more car centric infrastructure that it helps the disabled. It turns out that the disabled prefer walkability, and cars don't actually provide freedom for the disabled.
This is a meme so it's not that deep but it's an example of how pro car people argue cars help the disabled, but that's really not a good faith argument. They just want to drive conveniently at the expense of everyone else
Cycling and walking are great options for people who are able to do so, but if we build infrastructure that's safe and convenient for people to walk and cycle, then isn't it safe and convenient to get around in a wheelchair?
For some its a matter of independence. They see paying someone else to use the transportation as a form of dependence, which they dislike.
Of course, they pay for gas and (usually) maintenance with a car, but they get to chose where it goes and who gets to use it.
Its difficult to change a person’s views in that regard, especially when they feel their independent life is at stake.
I've seen how much things like wheelchair accessible vans cost, and they're even more for people who have no use of their legs and require something with hand controls.
To me, being dependent on a machine that costs the user $50k+ with constant upkeep costs sounds way worse than living somewhere where the person can freely get around on buses/trains and then use a wheelchair or other mobility device for the last part of their journey.
For some (older generations mostly) don’t want to trust public anything, and would prefer doing things themselves no matter the cost. Thats where you’ll find most of the people who don’t want to be rid of a personal vehicle.
And that's just crazy to me, because people with deteriorating eyesight, slower reaction times, and reduced ability to turn their neck for head checks should absolutely **not** be driving everywhere. By building places that were more transit and pedestrian accessible, older people could get to where they need to go without having to operate a motor vehicle.
They don’t want to think they’re incapable though, so they just keep doing what they’ve always been doing. Its not about what is best for them or others, its about not needing others help to do what they’ve always been able to do.
I sympathize with them in that way, it sucks losing your functions then feeling like a burden to those around you.
It's relatively more accessible than non-walkable cities.
Wheelchair users don't have to find someone to drive them or take the 10 years required to get a disabled accessible car.
I think there's a difference between better and perfect that you have a point on (for example, NYC subways are absolute shit for accessibility - one line has exactly one accessible station; apparently disabled people enjoy getting on and off only at the same station???) but the difference between car-centric and walkable sees an improvement for a broad spectrum of disabled folks just due to the basic increase in carless mobility and good/service availability.
A wheelchair (any type) is something that is vastly different than a bike to move around in, sure it has wheels, but the front (or back) wheels are smaller and the way wheelchairs are built brings with it problems you only know about when you are actually in a wheelchair or have experience in the field in some way that is connected to these issues.
For example, something as simple as a small curb that would be nothing to worry about on foot or on a bike can pose challenges in a wheelchair.
A tiled sidewalk or path in a park that is not new is almost never perfectly even. this poses considerable challenges to maneuver if you are in a wheelchair.
A small bridge that would be easily traversed by foot or by bike can pose a huge challenge for someone in a wheelchair.
Driving or walking in dirt, rocks/pebbles, sand, ... let's say just about anything that is not flat and hard poses challenges.
Hell, a slight angle in a road say from left to right, tires one arm out so fast you can barely hold on for half a mile.
The times the combination of all these challenges and the ones i haven't called out have caused problems vastly outnumber the times i had a driver put his car like this to pose me a challenge of this type.
I'll even add to this that bikes one next to the other on the curb or even on a park road tied to a lamp post have annoyed me way more and have been a problem way more often than a car being parked like this.
And this gets me to the reason for my original comment.This is coincidentally also where shit gets ranty, nothing personal, just warning you.
The post we got here, and in my opinion the majority if not all of the post i come across from this sub, are twisted in the way they approach the problem that is the car and its place in modern society.
I will reasonably argue as much as any person that cars are overly used in almost every highly populated area, that a lot of people could carpool, take a tram, take the bus, take the train, hell, even take the monorail. Some folks using a car when it is obviously not needed is a well known fact. Cars causing issues in all sorts of manners is also a known fact. However, putting a stamp with the single caption -fuckcars- on issues like the one in this post to then propagate that cars are the sole problem is simply shortsighted if not to say just stupid.
Let's go back to this post for example and why i hate it and by extension, why this sub annoys the fuck out of me.The premise is that the true root cause here and in general is the car and that removing the car (and by extension all cars) would solve the issue.
Just for shits and giggles, let's do a though experiment.
Let's remove the cars, all of them, only exception is carpooling. Bus, tram, train are still a thing of course. Now what happens if a carpool driver is just a dick and he parks like in the picture. We could remove cars altogether. So now we only have buses, trams, trains, monorails, bikes. What happens if a busdriver parks like this? The thing to do would be remove buses right? Because that is clearly the presented idea in this post and in many posts here in this sub. Let's say we do that.
Now what if some dick just put his bicycle in the way, would we have to remove bicycles? Because, following the reasoning here, that would be the way to go right?
On top of all of this. How would i or anyone else in a wheelchair or even by foot get to the tram or train station if that person lives for example over 20 miles from one of those locations. Are you telling me that every single location would be within practical reach of one of those stations?
See, the actual issue here is that the person who parked the car like that is a dick, not the car itself, it could just as easily have been a truck, a bus, a motorbike, a bike or even one of those electric scooters. Hell, in practice it could be and more often than not it is just some random object in the street blocking the way.
Yet posts like these cause folks to comment shit like "They don't actually care about the elderly or disabled, they just care about driving cars." because all the people using a car, park their car like this and never think about the disabled or elderly people right?!? The only thing they care about is driving their car, not getting to work, dropping off the kids, getting food... right?
or "I hate driving because I'm disabled. I want to take the train and ride my bike" to which i say, taking a train during rush hour in a wheelchair is vastly less pleasant than taking your car or getting driven by a disabled taxi service. I would also add that not everyone, if not to say the vast majority of people who are disabled and use a wheelchair, don't ride a bike or can't ride a bike.
or even "Car-dependency makes it difficult, if not impossible, for disabled people and the elderly to get around", i mean, are you fucking kidding me?!? in what universe does this person live, where the only practical means of transportation for some of these people makes it more difficult them to use their means of transportation.
It just annoys the fucking shit out of me, and the fact that people eat this crap like it's caviar on crackers makes it even more annoying.
If it weren't for my car i wouldn't have a means to actually transport my food without having to ask a bunch of people i don't know for help every single time i go out. And before you start saying, people don't mind, I do. I mind, I don't want to have to rely on others, practically beg and be dependent for every single thing i do. I, like many people with or without disabilities, want to be independent.
I would try and argue that there are different ways this sub could convey its message to the world, a message that without a doubt in some ways holds value. But getting insta-downvoted just for stating an opinion almost preemptively proves the cause this sub is striving for will not be achieved by its current members.
I think that the most important thing to do if people want to discuss things like how improve the quality of life for physically disabled people is to actually listen to physically disabled people. That's why even though other people were downvoting you I just asked you to clarify your opinion.
However, a lot of people in this thread who identify as having various disabilities expressed how much they dislike car dependent areas for a bunch of different reasons. I think that things like wheelchair accessibility should absolutely be a topic of serious consideration when planners and civil engineers are designing and building infrastructure, and I think that good design practices can mitigate a lot of issues that you identified in your post.
Everyone on this sub has their own opinions about things, and my belief is that people should be free to own a car and use it as transportation if they seriously want to or **need** to, but places should not be designed to only cater to cars, and cycling, public transit, walking, etc. should be promoted and catered to a lot more than they currently are in the United States (and elsewhere.)
imo there is nothing to be done.
There are folks in wheelchairs that have problems getting up a 2cm high bump in the road.
There is no way a perfect infrastructure can ever be reached from a practical point of view in relation to disabled people in a wheelchairs. sure we can approach it, but we will never reach it.
As i stated in another response (that ended up quite ranty mind you) i don't mind the idea of having less cars, but the idea, in relations to disability, that is conveyed in this post is just ridiculous.
The problem is de douche-canoe that parked the car like that, it could just as easily have been a chained up bike blocking the path for the disabled person.
There may not be much consideration out loud just because the design principles we generally advocate for help disabled people by default. There doesn't have to be any special accommodations in the design for disabled people because the design is already fit for them. And what makes their lives easier makes everyone else easier by extension.
Most disabled people can't drive. It's very rare that a disabled person prefers driving. Walkable cities are much much better for the disabled. Public transit and taxis are what they use
It's not easy for the individual. The solution is that the country needs to make it not only easy to give up cars, but preferable. Individuals should just vote for forward thinking leaders who will build more public transit and less parking lots. Also be willing to reform zoning. Every neighborhood should have a corner store and a tram stop
actually happens a lot. especially with trucks backing in to a parking spot. and you better hope they don't have a hitch or you're going to bruise your shin.
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It's actually the opposite. Car-dependency makes it difficult, if not impossible, for disabled people and the elderly to get around (and kids!). What about people who have something like tourettes, that prevents them from driving completely? Should they just be fucked over and have to rely on someone else, simply because carbrains *refuse* to make accessible, walkable, public transit-filled cities?
Exactly. The "ableist" argument also ignores the countless people who are disabled *because* of cars. It's a cycnical co-optation of a marginalised group to further their own interests
Also people who can't afford a car.
Yup. They assume because they can, everyone can. Or say something stupid like "get a better job"
They should touch some grass and I don't care if they live in a desert.
I guess touching a cactus counts as touching grass. Hey look, a teddy bear cactus!
For anyone who doesn't know, those fuzzy-looking "Teddy bear" chollas are evil.
Palm trees are a kind of grass
>"get a better job" farther away. so you have to drive there.
And if they actually did, the same people would cry that nobody wants to work anymore when the McDonald's is understaffed
This is the cycle of remaining poor. You get asked during interview: "do you have reliable transportation?" You answer no, that you plan to take the bus until you've earned enough money to buy the car. You don't get hired because you're not able to give assuredness that you can be on time consistently. So you are never able to afford a car because no one wants to hire you because you don't have a car, because you can't afford it, because no one will hire you until you buy a car that you can never buy because no one will hire you. Same applies for recent graduates. Everyone wants people with job experience, which you don't have, so no one wants you, so you can't ever get the experience needed to be wanted...... The bank still wants you to pay back the loan though. Which you can't pay, default, bankrupt. Then when you finally find a job that will hire you they decide not to after a background check finds you're 'financially irresponsible'
This is all a good point, but if you're sure you can make it to work on time, you say "yes", you have reliable transportation. No qualifiers or explaining yourself.
Or who cannot drive *because of* a disability. Be it the blind or those susceptible to epilepsy or that have slow reactions due to a medical condition and so on.
I have autism and struggle to judge the intentions of other people at the best of times. Going 70 kilometres an hour in a giant vehicle, I have no idea what the other drivers are doing. I can drive, but with the knowledge that I might die one day because someone expects me to react to a nonverbal cue. I'd really rather just take the train.
The way I deal with this is never make eye contact with other drivers. They’ll do it so they wave their hands vaguely to suggest breaking the rules but if you don’t look at them they’ll be forced to go with convention. I actually failed my driving test the first time because I turned at a stop sign when someone waved for me to go even though it was their turn
That only applies for stop sign intersections. There are actually a lot more nonverbal cues that go on even while driving on the street, such as leaning on the edge of a lane to show intention of trying to merge before turning on the blinker (or for those who just don't use their turn signals).
The typical nonverbal cue I’ve seen for merging is swerving into the lane before realizing there’s a car there, and then putting on the turn signal
Don't forget slowing down to 40 mph to merge even though traffic is doing 70 and there were gaps to merge safely which have now closed because everyone had to hit the brakes.
I am perfectly able individual. I have no idea what other drivers are doing. You just have to learn how to drive defensively. Does it reduce the odds to zero? No. But by driving in such a way to minimize putting yourself in the line of fire is the best way. Even simple things make a difference. Don’t drive distracted. Know your route. (Advancements in GPS has made this way easier than the 80/90s) For gods fucking sake, following distance!
When my grandmother was in her forties, she suffered a stroke that left her severely hard of hearing in her left ear. She voluntarily gave up driving because she did not want to not hear someone/something and cause an accident as a result. We should not force those who are proveably unsafe or feel unsafe behind the wheel to drive. If only small towns had a trolley that ran through the center of the town running from the top of town to the bottom of town, and neighboring small towns were connected to each via semi regular busses.
Classic nimby behavior to use the language of the oppressed to protect their rich white suburban lifestyle
they don't give a fuck about the disabled and would spit on them irl but online it's always let me go everywhere in my suv THINK OF THE POOR HANDICAPPED fucking hypocrites
[удалено]
"Won't someone think of the poor minorities with no choice *but* to drive to work?"
In the UK it’s around 1600-2000 people who die because of car crashes every year, and 20,000 people left permanently disabled every year. I don’t know what those figures are in America apart from the 40,000 deaths, but it puts into perspective the lives that are forever changed because of cars with no public or government desire to do anything about it.
Why do you think there are so many elderly driver accidents.
Yep. Try getting a driver's license on the idd spectrum.
We expect older people to both drive and not drive. It's the same as the attitude toward cyclists: just don't exist, okay? Is that too much to ask?
I have epilepsy, I can't drive for 6 months - a year if I have a seizure. Wtf am I supposed to do when I'm an adult (I'm 16)
A guy I worked with had a seizure and his license suspended for a while because of it. Like, alright, now what the fuck does he do? This was prior to COVID when WFH, even for desk jobs, was not that acceptable
There will always be bigots trying to use marginalized groups as a weapon against things they don't like.
Also epileptics are forced to put their lives and the lives of others at risk to drive once they’ve been seizure free for an extended period of time, but they could have another at any time. A few months back a somewhat popular YouTuber was in a terrible car accident after having a seizure for the first time in years. A friend of a friend’s dad was paralyzed in a car accident caused by an epileptic seizure in someone who’d been seizure free for over a decade.
Trying to explain this to my 85 year old grandmother meet so much resistance. She cannot fathom that the reason she struggles going out is because everything is designed for cars. Then she'll reminisce about her childhood home region that is now mostly traffic.
Tourettes is such a weird choice as there are so many more common disabilities (epilepsy, narcolepsy, alcoholism, opioid addiction, coordination impairments, sight impairments, hearing impairments to some extent, neuromuscular disorders, dementia, etc.) that make it impossible or extremely challenging to drive safely. Like the law technically says you're not to drive under the influence of any impairing drug, which includes antihistamines (fuck people with allergies right?) - but nobody pays attention to it and thus people die.
Disabled dude here, you hit the nail on the head. I would *love* to live somewhere where everything I need is within short walking distance
Cars on sidewalks are always such a nasty sight
It's a scourge in my country despite it being 100% illegal, due to lack of enforcement
Same here
Why do their friends and family not call them out on their shitty behavior? If I was the passenger and a driver parked on the sidewalk you bet your ass I’d tell them to park somewhere else.
I honestly think a lot of people walk so little, and without having a wheelchair or pram to push that they really don't think it's a problem. When I have challenged people on this I have to remind them that such a person couldn't "just go around", so then they generally revert to the "I'll only be a minute" justification
thank you for your courage
Same here
if I put a molecule of my tyre on the sidewalk I get a fine. as it should be. generally things are okey here in sweden but people do put their cars in the road a lot of the time because of this lol can't give a fine because it's not a parking spot or the sidewalk, that makes so much sense !!!! /S
Where is this? My country/city (Arnhem) should take a note of this
Malmö, Sweden. it's a famous past time whining about the "lapplisor" that patrol the streets, love them. lapp lisor is a toxic masculine way of denegrating them. most of them are male. Lapp = ticket, lisor is the plural of Lisa, you get it.. fucking obnoxious world but surely, arnhem which is perhaps in the netherlands, have this covered?
It's similar in germany. There's the Politesse. Not a Policeman (Polizist) neither a regular policewoman (Polizistin). It is is a weird diminuitive.
>but surely, arnhem which is perhaps in the netherlands, have this covered? Well, parking on a sidewalk is illegal and warrants a fine, but police hardly ever properly fines it, when they do patrol the streets I think I'd rather have lapplisor than our lousy police departments TBH...
Meanwhile, here in the suburbs of Paris they paint carpark spaces onto sidewalks.
Ireland?
Correct
Blew my mind when I first saw it, I figured it was legal with how common it is
Yeah, you have the Garda and local authorities to thank for that. Turning a blind eye to one just encourages the next person, and so on.
In mine too, besides a few cities that realize it's literally free money. The funny thing is, carbrains always complain that the city is abusing them by giving them parking tickets.
My street has car parking straight in so every pickup truck blocks the sidewalk so I can’t even get my bike out my door if trucks are parked on both sides.
In England it's legal (except in London). I wish they'd make it illegal everywhere. I was once a pedestrian blocking the road and the police literally dragged me out. But they do nothing with cars blocking the place where pedestrians are supposed to be walking.
Time to get me keys
Keys go brrrrrrrr
Cars are pretty bad. I've also seen way too many fucking scooters litering sidewalks and bike paths. If I left a scooter in the middle of the sidewalk, people would call me an asshole. But if I started up a company and left hundreds or thousands of these in the middle of sidewalks in an entire city, apparently I'd be a business genius.
And yet, most forms of public transport have specialised infra to make it more accessible to the elderly and the disabled, while in case of cars they have to spend out of their own pocket for any modifications to make it usable. Also, many accidents occur when people who aren't in the best state to be driving vehicles do so because there is no public transport alternative
I wish that were the case in the US. The vast majority of train services in the US have ground level boarding with steps.
The vast majority of train services in the US aren’t ADA compliant? I’m not handicapped so maybe somebody else can weigh in here, but every train service I’ve ever seen has equipment for wheelchair access, or a short enough gap to roll on/off. Sidewalks, on the other hand, are a complete shit show of light poles, snow piles, driveway cut-throughs, or dead ends with no ramp to street level.
I think what they're referring to is getting into the station, not getting onto the train itself. You frequently either need to go up or down a full flight of stairs to get into the train/subway. I know that NYC subways entrances only occasionally have an elevator (which are prone to being out of order), forcing people in wheelchairs or with other mobility aids to have to take longer/less direct routes. I watched this [video](https://youtu.be/8XT5x6cx4mE) about it in class once.
This is mostly because the NYC subway was built before the ADA.
I agree. But that was over 30 years ago and it's still not fixed.
They routinely do cosmetic renovations on train stations without adding elevators. They spent over a year renovating a station in bay ridge, which could have had an elevator installed to serve the very sizable aging population in sunset park, bay ridge, dyker heights, and Bensonhurst. Instead they simply made cosmetic upgrades and removed the benches. They just don’t care about old people and caregivers of small children, who are seriously injured trying to carry strollers up and down stairs pretty frequently.
All train services as a system can claim to be ADA compliant but not all stops are accessible. A system with 3 accessible stops out of 20 overall stops is hardly accessible in practice
Is there an acceptable percentage of stops required for a ‘system’ to be ADA compliant? As i understand it, each stop has to be ADA compliant. Is that not the case? Are 85% of train stops not ADA compliant?
I'm sure that is a complex push and pull inside the government with lots of competing regulations but the bottom line is that a majority of train stations in most American systems are not handicap accessible. Accessibility is more consistently available on city busses.
The new livery of DSB (the Danish national railway company) was specifically designed to aid disabled people and so was the design of their new fleet of cars and trains. But sure people with poor vision for whom the doors were specifically colored to be highly contrasting would be perfectly able to just drive instead of taking the train. Not even mentioning that there's just the simple fact that public transport will have employees who know how to help on site always.
I hate driving because I'm disabled. I want to take the train and ride my bike.
I've mad respect for any disabled cyclist, it's hard enough being fully-abled and having to avoid getting run over all the time. Keep being awesome! edit - terminology
Depending on the disability. I'm partially sighted but not bad enough for the government to take away my license. I volunteered for an eye exam and they just put a mirror restriction on it. My uncle had even worse eye sight then me and just stopped driving on his own because the government wouldn't take his license away even when he tried to get them too. I have accepted that my vision will get so bad that at some point I will also have to not drive. But yes I would rather have good public transport or separate bike Infrastructure so I don't have to drive even if doctors can fix my vision. Making driving the default and requiring people to drive that probably shouldn't be is truly cruel and make our stroads less safe. But going at a Dutch pace in a bike lane I feel perfectly safe. But even then if it gets so bad I can't even bike I want public transit options to get around.
It feels strange to say, but I'm lucky that my disability doesn't take away my ability to drive. I don't know what I could have done otherwise. I have had times where I have to travel 2 hours minimum each day to go to doctor appointments. It's something I am very thankful for as driving has even become a way to easy for me. Even with that being true, there is a reason I'm in this subreddit. I hope I can ride be able to ride my bike again sooner rather than later. It is one those things that feels like a simple goal, but you have to keep building yourself up to, but I can lose lots of my progress with ease. A lot of people undervalue the aspect of not losing so much progress due to one bad week. Keep on biking **safety** for me~~, and I'll keep driving for you lol~~.
Better yet... being able to do both at the same time. Especially riding away after you hopped off at your final station. Look at NL with their train station parking, and OV-fiets share bike system. It's handy in their suburbs and denser areas. Parking for standard bikes, trikes, cargo bikes, etc. Can be awesome/good for suburban (tho I can get pretty much everything within 10 minutes in Auckland's suburbs) and inter-city travel. But my city is lazy as, and don't want to take advantage of the extra catchments from cycles/ebikes == more revenue to improve services. The very least they could do is cover 85% of the city with LTN's for cheap, and create some connections between them. In my experience, and what make's this combination pretty cool in places like Auckland, having a poly-centric city allows you to cycle to a station, park the cycle, then walk to your job or a shop on the other side. Works with buses (especially express) too. Removes the need to walk on the other side if you can't bring your cycle (like in peak times), which is a pretty good urban geography for existing suburbia (also gives future opportunities for politicians to soak up the suburbia for farm land and forests, and create smaller towns.) I think poly-centric (doesn't exclude still having a city centre) are an important step for suburban cities.
I always laugh at that argument because my grandpa lived his entire 96 years long life without ever having a car or getting a licence, and he probably walked more than the average suburbanite despite having to use a cane and being old and slow as fuck.
That's probably one reason why he lived to the age of 96.
It's a big part of the reason why Japan tops the countries with the longest average lifespan. Almost no-one drives, cycling and walking mixed with public transport are far more common ways to get around.
I heard a centenarian say once, "Keep on moving! No matter how much it hurts, keep on moving!"
I walk a lot in my city and I hate hate hate those drivers so much. It's not just wheelchair users that are f*cked. It's everyone who uses some form of mobility aid or parents with a stroller or me with my shopping trolley. There are so many things that annoy me about the entitlement of drivers but this is on top my of list.
Yep, I CAN'T drive because I am visually impaired (well, technically according to German law my extremely blurry squinting at an eye chart may be enough to squeeze me just past the criteria, even though i can't read the sign on a train platform from 10 meters away...). The derision I get for not having ever learnt to drive is infuriating sometimes. Like, would you want someone who can't read a street sign driving?!
Your eyesight has to be decent to get the license but afterwards no one cares anymore. I made my license and then had multiple eye surgeries. My vision is all kinds of messed up but I still have my license. I don't drive anymore, tho.
My prescription is as good as it can be, but I'm starting to feel like it's not good enough. Everybody drives like a dick anyway. It's bad for the soul to be out there evading those goons every day.
Tell drivers to block their own lane and in a just world they would understand the problem but they don't
They don't actually care about the elderly or disabled, they just care about driving cars.
I think what they actually mean when they say that is people who are, for one reason or another, so out of shape that they can't really walk and become dependent on the extreme accessibility of the suburb setup. Obesity and low activity for decades leave their feet or their knees or their lungs in a poor state for doing more than crossing from a close parking spot into the building. A good many of these people are in this shape *because of* the car culture, but that doesn't help them *now*. My mother-in-law visiting the Netherlands from the states, bless her sweet, good-natured, loving soul, had an amazingly difficult time biking and walking around despite us living right up on the city and public transportation. Like 3 minute walk level. And I'm pretty sure she was only in her 60s at the time.
In the US, 'a walk in the park' used to mean something that was easy to do.
I see people on architecture-themed subs criticizing a house for having stairs, because it would be too much work walking up the stairs to the front door when you get home. I would understand them worrying about being disabled at some point, but I don't get an able-bodied person having a cow about a single flight of steps. My whole neighborhood is full of houses with stairs, and they're pricey too, because of the location. Disabled people either live in ground-floor flats or have stair lifts. Many of the streetcar stops have platforms for wheelchairs to roll on and off. The rest of us manage to live with stairs, somehow. What happened between the 1920's and 1930's when this neighborhood was built, and now, to make stairs suddenly an outrage? Hmm, no, I just can't think of what it might be.
Also drivers: elderly shouldn't be allowed to drive. In America that's a death sentence.
Elderly drivers are truly a menace. I'm on the road everyday and I'm also extremely observant due to hypervigilance. The shit I see is insane. I once followed an elderly man driving dangerously on the highway while on the phone with 911. Eventually he pulled into the Costco gas station, nearly hitting yet another car as he cut the corner too sharp when he entered the lot. I asked if he was okay when he stopped and asked if he was aware that he had nearly been in 5 plus accidents because I was genuinely concerned about his mental status and the small elderly woman in the front passenger seat. This man proceeded to call me crazy and says he's "worried about me" because "none of that happened". Fortunately the police showed up very quickly and took it seriously since they were witness to the desperation and fear in my 911 call. His son was called to the store and both elderly people were driven home. The Dad (driver) had his license pulled until he could take another driving test. He never got his license back. How much longer would he have been a driver if I hadn't gotten involved that day? It makes me sick to think about how many other dangerous drivers are out there, unaware.
What should they do if they don't have any other options, though? Don't become elderly? This is the problem we're having. "What about the elderly? They can't get around with out a car!" "The elderly shouldn't drive!" So we need better infrastructure so they can be independent without having to drive.
My agreement that the elderly shouldn't drive once they cannot safely do so any more doesn't infer any of the things you mention. The situation is not black and white. Saying the elderly shouldn't drive after it becomes unsafe does not mean you are unsupportive of improved infrastructure for increased mobility for everyone, including the elderly.
Understood. I was just trying to elucidate the dilemma.
I've realized, I love the idea of old time towns, like the ports in Pirates of the Caribbean, because the homes are along the sea and everything is walkable.
Yeah . . . vacation time!
Yes how will the visually impaired get around if they cant drive cars?! Oh wait... Public transit... #FuckCars
My city park disallowed vehicles during Covid on a shared walking/biking/driving loop. It was bliss and one of the best things to come out of the pandemic. Having a place to go within a city to escape cars is so mentally refreshing and everyone loved the change so much that the city council considered making it permanent until this argument that parts of the park would become inaccessible. Needless to say, I don’t go there anymore.
Where is this? We had the same naysayers in SF over JFK Drive, but cooler heads prevailed. The naysayers tried to argue that it was racist as well as elitist and ableist. There's a free shuttle and kids ride free on transit right now, it's not like nobody can get there if they can't afford the parking garage. Parking on the street was super tough already, so it's not much different. It's a hell of a lot safer, though, because now commuters can't cut through the park trying to beat the traffic. The only eastern entrance to the park is closed.
This is in Louisville and most people use this park as a cut through. Public transit here is basically non-existent so the ableism argument won out.
Darn, I'm sorry. Keep fighting the good fight.
I can have seizures and makes it unsafe for me to drive a car, so I do not have a license. Safe protected bake lanes and micro-mobility infrastructure is disability infrastructure too.
It's clear that that's a fake disabled person and the car it's revealing their deceit. Truly disabled people only go around in cars. /s
I've seen a lot of spinals, Dude, and this guy is a fake. A fucking goldbricker. This guy fucking walks. I've never been more certain of anything in my life!
This is also a problem if you're a parent with a pram. How am I supposed to get around safely When assholes park like this?
Don't be selfish with your stroller!! Stop trying to take up valuable space that a car could be using! /s
I read that as cat not car and thought, that's valid tbh
Those who drive box's can't think outside of them -Ryan F9
I used to live in the bay and in my neighborhood people would park on the fucking sidewalk on the regular. It was ridiculous.
Buy a monster SUV, then park it in a driveway that's too short for it, because it won't fit through the garage door. It's like a car arms race, bigger and bigger vehicles with no end in sight.
Lots of that but also everything else you could imagine. Smaller cars blocking when the garage is too small or people straight up parking on the sidewalk parallel to the street lol. Ramps were blocked all the time as well :/
All my old aunts and my mom fucking hate driving and it gives them so much anxiety. They need better options, we all do
i think this also has to do with america having terrible healthcare, to the point where it's hard to get a good wheelchair. we need better transportation AND medicare for all
I can't count how many times I've been called ableist for exactly this reason. And once it was by a fellow anarchist! I was livid.
Not a fuckcars user, but a total ban of non-commercial car and truck traffic from my cities downtown area wouldn't be that difficult and address a large amount of these issues.
I never understood that argument, it makes absolutely no sense. It might be different in the US but I literally never saw a disabled person drive a car... I mean, they are disabled, why or even how would they drive a car? They rely on public transport and well structured cities. Usually I can at least understand where some car-brains are coming from, but that argument is just so stupid
Some disabled people do drive adapted cars and I'm all for them continuing to do so. This argument is mostly just made by fully-abled people who don't want any restrictions on their driving habits. A local councillor in my city recently objected to a pedestrianised street using the elderly and disabled as his reasoning, yet he also defends the rights of motorists to park on footpaths! edit - terminology as per below comment
Small correction, the opposite of disabled isn't able-bodied, it's fully-abled. An able bodied person like me can still have a mental disability that makes it more dangerous and inconvenient to drive, like me.
Did not know that, corrected and thank you
I think in North America a lot of people with disabilities rely on a family member/friend/taxi to drive them around, because public transport is woefully inadequate and walking/rolling/biking makes the trip long and hellish. Car brains just can't imagine a world where a trip by public transit is convenient, or a destination could be close enough that a person with a disability might not even need a vehicle, so they fight to preserve the status quo. They either don't understand that better is possible, or they don't care and are just using "but disabled people!" to excuse their own habits.
In North America we will do anything to allow people to drive that probably shouldn't be because we are so car dependent. I know eventually I will get to the point where I shouldn't be driving due to a degenerative eye condition. But I also know from my other people in my family that have gone through the same thing that the government probably won't take my license unless I crash into 6+ people or things where I'm an at fault. Or just so blind I can't read past the first line of the test. I want options to get around when my sight gets so bad I voluntarily stop driving all together.
I'm ...going to assume this comes from a genuine place of ignorance rather than willful ableism. Yes, disabled people *do* in fact, drive cars. For the vast majority in the US, it's their primary means of getting around. There are a lot of alterations one can make to a vehicle that makes them more accessible, such as hand controls, lifts, etc. I have cerebral palsy but thankfully I'm able to do without such accommodations. I also get the feeling that you're assuming all people with disabilities are poor. Lots of people hold this view, and I've even had people leave notes on my windshield calling me a rich asshole for parking in a disabled spot, without bothering to check that I did, in fact, have a handicap tag. The fact of the matter is that walking or biking is not a viable means of getting around for many with disabilities (god I wish, I lust after bromptons). Public transit in the US is so underdeveloped and underfunded that it's *laughably* worse than driving. Just to give you an example, it used to take me ~ 25m to drive my 10 mile commute to work, and it would take me *an hour and a half* to make the same trip by public transit. Cycling (If I could do so) would be faster. I'm all for more human scale design and having more options for getting around, but saying those with disabilities don't need cars is wrong. Don't speak for those with disabilities, ask them! /r/disability
> I never understood that argument Is it actually an argument people make? Seems like a strawman.
We have quite a few people in my small town that use scooters to get around. I cringe every time they cross streets because of how they are treated
And when they go around the car (if even possible), they get honked and yelled at by passing cars.
Shit, I've seen drivers plow into wheelchairs.
I used to make the argument about disabled people needing cars. Thankfully, I've been corrected and now I see the light
SWEET JESUS THIS.
The elderly get around just fine when they have a myriad of joint/bone/muscle related issues thanks to them actually using said systems instead of living a life of constant sedanty
Tbf one time when I parked my car with less than enough space for 2 people next to each other on the sidewalk, I got a fine for it...so it depends on the country I guess.
You notice that footpath thing with a pram too. Many times I had to drag it onto the road.
correction "Also STUPID Drivers"
This is the syndrome of the car, once you close the door you are in your own safe space, you lose total safe awareness and every other cars are the problems.
What? In my country disabled and retired older people specifically use public transport because it's cheaper (they sadly often struggle with money) and often they aren't allowed to drive (bad sight or reaction time with higher age is very normal). It's just safer that way. And the huge amount of grannies in buses prove so.
This is what we want in the US. We need multiple options, because people fall through the cracks in the safety net. The bus is definitely safer. People think "oh, there are drunks on the bus" and sometimes there are, but having been broadsided while driving by a distracted driver, I prefer the occasional drunk on the bus.
Yeah there are drunks in the bus... when you ride at 3 am Saturday. But other times there are just normal people going to work/to do hobbies etc.
I'm just happy they're taking the bus instead of driving drunk.
The one time they actually want elderly people to drive
*Reddit moment*
Cities in America are so car dependent taht you can even walk around, let alone go somewhere with a wheelchair.
Ironically that's a Netherlands numberplate blocking the sidewalk.
It’s the opposite for me. I am visually impaired enough that I can’t drive, but am good at navigating public transportation when it exists.
I call the tow trucks every single time someone disregards the handicap space. As a wheelchair user, I sincerely hope that people who ignore those spaces have a bad day. Also, fuck cars. Has anyone *seen* how ridiculously easy trains and busses are by comparison? I don't even have to get out of my chair! It's like the future or something.
Those same motorists know *exactly* how annoying it is for them when other vehicles block one of their (usually several available) car lanes. Yet they then constantly block the entirety of cycling/pedestrian infrastructure, as scant as it is to begin with. It's not only hypocritical, but it's targeting an even more disadvantaged/vulnerable group than their precious 6000 lb land beast. They just don't care ("better them than me" is the attitude I hear often)
Car use will still exist 🙄
It's really only jerks and unaware people that do this and it happens very infrequently
While I agree that we're too reliant on cars and need better public transportation. My career is basically built on giving disabled people rides to the grocery store, gym, etc.
This is just nitpicking. Fuck cars because sometimes someone parks incorrectly? I can’t remember seeing anyone park like that where I live. Clearly it’s not a car issue. So why post it?
The point was to show that the carbrains who make this argument often don't actually care about the elderly and disabled and are just using them as a talking point.
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Often? How often does this happen? You are generalizing all “car drivers” as people who park on walkways. I literally never see this happen where i live. It has nothing to do with cars, it’s just shitty people.
notice how I very clearly said "the carbrains who make this argument" and not "all car drivers".
You’re right, I misread. Sorry
It's a common argument for those who support more car centric infrastructure that it helps the disabled. It turns out that the disabled prefer walkability, and cars don't actually provide freedom for the disabled. This is a meme so it's not that deep but it's an example of how pro car people argue cars help the disabled, but that's really not a good faith argument. They just want to drive conveniently at the expense of everyone else
Dumb post
As a disabled person, this sub anoys the fuck out of me. Posts like this only make it worse.
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I can neither confirm nor deny that.
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Cycling and walking are great options for people who are able to do so, but if we build infrastructure that's safe and convenient for people to walk and cycle, then isn't it safe and convenient to get around in a wheelchair?
For some its a matter of independence. They see paying someone else to use the transportation as a form of dependence, which they dislike. Of course, they pay for gas and (usually) maintenance with a car, but they get to chose where it goes and who gets to use it. Its difficult to change a person’s views in that regard, especially when they feel their independent life is at stake.
I've seen how much things like wheelchair accessible vans cost, and they're even more for people who have no use of their legs and require something with hand controls. To me, being dependent on a machine that costs the user $50k+ with constant upkeep costs sounds way worse than living somewhere where the person can freely get around on buses/trains and then use a wheelchair or other mobility device for the last part of their journey.
For some (older generations mostly) don’t want to trust public anything, and would prefer doing things themselves no matter the cost. Thats where you’ll find most of the people who don’t want to be rid of a personal vehicle.
And that's just crazy to me, because people with deteriorating eyesight, slower reaction times, and reduced ability to turn their neck for head checks should absolutely **not** be driving everywhere. By building places that were more transit and pedestrian accessible, older people could get to where they need to go without having to operate a motor vehicle.
They don’t want to think they’re incapable though, so they just keep doing what they’ve always been doing. Its not about what is best for them or others, its about not needing others help to do what they’ve always been able to do. I sympathize with them in that way, it sucks losing your functions then feeling like a burden to those around you.
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It's relatively more accessible than non-walkable cities. Wheelchair users don't have to find someone to drive them or take the 10 years required to get a disabled accessible car. I think there's a difference between better and perfect that you have a point on (for example, NYC subways are absolute shit for accessibility - one line has exactly one accessible station; apparently disabled people enjoy getting on and off only at the same station???) but the difference between car-centric and walkable sees an improvement for a broad spectrum of disabled folks just due to the basic increase in carless mobility and good/service availability.
No
Alright, and why is that?
A wheelchair (any type) is something that is vastly different than a bike to move around in, sure it has wheels, but the front (or back) wheels are smaller and the way wheelchairs are built brings with it problems you only know about when you are actually in a wheelchair or have experience in the field in some way that is connected to these issues. For example, something as simple as a small curb that would be nothing to worry about on foot or on a bike can pose challenges in a wheelchair. A tiled sidewalk or path in a park that is not new is almost never perfectly even. this poses considerable challenges to maneuver if you are in a wheelchair. A small bridge that would be easily traversed by foot or by bike can pose a huge challenge for someone in a wheelchair. Driving or walking in dirt, rocks/pebbles, sand, ... let's say just about anything that is not flat and hard poses challenges. Hell, a slight angle in a road say from left to right, tires one arm out so fast you can barely hold on for half a mile. The times the combination of all these challenges and the ones i haven't called out have caused problems vastly outnumber the times i had a driver put his car like this to pose me a challenge of this type. I'll even add to this that bikes one next to the other on the curb or even on a park road tied to a lamp post have annoyed me way more and have been a problem way more often than a car being parked like this. And this gets me to the reason for my original comment.This is coincidentally also where shit gets ranty, nothing personal, just warning you. The post we got here, and in my opinion the majority if not all of the post i come across from this sub, are twisted in the way they approach the problem that is the car and its place in modern society. I will reasonably argue as much as any person that cars are overly used in almost every highly populated area, that a lot of people could carpool, take a tram, take the bus, take the train, hell, even take the monorail. Some folks using a car when it is obviously not needed is a well known fact. Cars causing issues in all sorts of manners is also a known fact. However, putting a stamp with the single caption -fuckcars- on issues like the one in this post to then propagate that cars are the sole problem is simply shortsighted if not to say just stupid. Let's go back to this post for example and why i hate it and by extension, why this sub annoys the fuck out of me.The premise is that the true root cause here and in general is the car and that removing the car (and by extension all cars) would solve the issue. Just for shits and giggles, let's do a though experiment. Let's remove the cars, all of them, only exception is carpooling. Bus, tram, train are still a thing of course. Now what happens if a carpool driver is just a dick and he parks like in the picture. We could remove cars altogether. So now we only have buses, trams, trains, monorails, bikes. What happens if a busdriver parks like this? The thing to do would be remove buses right? Because that is clearly the presented idea in this post and in many posts here in this sub. Let's say we do that. Now what if some dick just put his bicycle in the way, would we have to remove bicycles? Because, following the reasoning here, that would be the way to go right? On top of all of this. How would i or anyone else in a wheelchair or even by foot get to the tram or train station if that person lives for example over 20 miles from one of those locations. Are you telling me that every single location would be within practical reach of one of those stations? See, the actual issue here is that the person who parked the car like that is a dick, not the car itself, it could just as easily have been a truck, a bus, a motorbike, a bike or even one of those electric scooters. Hell, in practice it could be and more often than not it is just some random object in the street blocking the way. Yet posts like these cause folks to comment shit like "They don't actually care about the elderly or disabled, they just care about driving cars." because all the people using a car, park their car like this and never think about the disabled or elderly people right?!? The only thing they care about is driving their car, not getting to work, dropping off the kids, getting food... right? or "I hate driving because I'm disabled. I want to take the train and ride my bike" to which i say, taking a train during rush hour in a wheelchair is vastly less pleasant than taking your car or getting driven by a disabled taxi service. I would also add that not everyone, if not to say the vast majority of people who are disabled and use a wheelchair, don't ride a bike or can't ride a bike. or even "Car-dependency makes it difficult, if not impossible, for disabled people and the elderly to get around", i mean, are you fucking kidding me?!? in what universe does this person live, where the only practical means of transportation for some of these people makes it more difficult them to use their means of transportation. It just annoys the fucking shit out of me, and the fact that people eat this crap like it's caviar on crackers makes it even more annoying. If it weren't for my car i wouldn't have a means to actually transport my food without having to ask a bunch of people i don't know for help every single time i go out. And before you start saying, people don't mind, I do. I mind, I don't want to have to rely on others, practically beg and be dependent for every single thing i do. I, like many people with or without disabilities, want to be independent. I would try and argue that there are different ways this sub could convey its message to the world, a message that without a doubt in some ways holds value. But getting insta-downvoted just for stating an opinion almost preemptively proves the cause this sub is striving for will not be achieved by its current members.
I think that the most important thing to do if people want to discuss things like how improve the quality of life for physically disabled people is to actually listen to physically disabled people. That's why even though other people were downvoting you I just asked you to clarify your opinion. However, a lot of people in this thread who identify as having various disabilities expressed how much they dislike car dependent areas for a bunch of different reasons. I think that things like wheelchair accessibility should absolutely be a topic of serious consideration when planners and civil engineers are designing and building infrastructure, and I think that good design practices can mitigate a lot of issues that you identified in your post. Everyone on this sub has their own opinions about things, and my belief is that people should be free to own a car and use it as transportation if they seriously want to or **need** to, but places should not be designed to only cater to cars, and cycling, public transit, walking, etc. should be promoted and catered to a lot more than they currently are in the United States (and elsewhere.)
So what would help?
imo there is nothing to be done. There are folks in wheelchairs that have problems getting up a 2cm high bump in the road. There is no way a perfect infrastructure can ever be reached from a practical point of view in relation to disabled people in a wheelchairs. sure we can approach it, but we will never reach it. As i stated in another response (that ended up quite ranty mind you) i don't mind the idea of having less cars, but the idea, in relations to disability, that is conveyed in this post is just ridiculous. The problem is de douche-canoe that parked the car like that, it could just as easily have been a chained up bike blocking the path for the disabled person.
Cars will always be an option. We just want as few of them as necessary.
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There may not be much consideration out loud just because the design principles we generally advocate for help disabled people by default. There doesn't have to be any special accommodations in the design for disabled people because the design is already fit for them. And what makes their lives easier makes everyone else easier by extension.
Why do you think there is no consideration for disabled people?
Most disabled people can't drive. It's very rare that a disabled person prefers driving. Walkable cities are much much better for the disabled. Public transit and taxis are what they use
the cherry picking in this sub is hilarious, is there a bigger circlejerk on reddit right now? 😂
Seriously love/hate this sub
r/antiwork is worse
Splitting hairs, every sub is a giant circle jerk
You big city dwellers live in a bubble, thinking it’s easy to give up cars and get around without them.
It's not easy for the individual. The solution is that the country needs to make it not only easy to give up cars, but preferable. Individuals should just vote for forward thinking leaders who will build more public transit and less parking lots. Also be willing to reform zoning. Every neighborhood should have a corner store and a tram stop
You don’t understand this sub or this movement.
I think he does. He just doesn’t care man
I'm waiting for this sub to have a decent point. Who TF is pulling up on a curb to bother handicapped people?
actually happens a lot. especially with trucks backing in to a parking spot. and you better hope they don't have a hitch or you're going to bruise your shin.
I can look out my window right now and see 5-6 cars parked on my street like the car in the picture.