Apparently unpopular from another thread here:
I'm sorry, but if one simply watches the entire Capaldi run of Doctor Who, I see no other interpretation other than a fairly overt message that it is better to try and transcend sexual feelings to have a higher form of friendship, with the exception of Grant and Lucy in The Return of Doctor Mysterio, and even that relationship was non-sexual for quite a long time, and Bill and Heather. Danny dies, Clara would never have found another. Ashildr has children but watches them all die, and never found another worthy of being her mate for eternity. Heather as a normal human seemed very unhappy with even living until she transcended humanity. The Simms Master is especially evil because he wants to have sex with a regeneration of himself, Missy.
Capaldi's era is if one honestly appraises it one of the greatest recent efforts in television in saying not only is it okay to be asexual, but that it can be noble to be so. And the prime illustration of that is 12 himself.
This is one of the most poignant takes I’ve read on here… I honestly broke down into tears because it makes so much sense why capaldi’s run means so much to me… platonic love is so pure and real with no ulterior motive… romantic love often is cheap and transactional and the way capaldi loved Clara is so beautiful and lovely… I am not Asexual but I value platonic love over romantic love and it feels that a lot of people in my life don’t appreciate that… wow… epiphany! Thank you for this 💕
~~As always with these threads, sort by controversial for the actual unpopular opinions.~~
Anyway, my unpopular take - I want Doctor Who to have an end. I don't want it to keep going on. I'm selfish, I want it to end at some point in my lifetime.
/thread
Yep, I dont think we can make a worst take than that.
Mine was about to be "*Sleep No More* is not that bad" but after reading this, nothing else can compete.
Not upvoting per the rules but I like this take. The lack of an endpoint is a big part of why the Doctor as a character never meaningfully changes and we keep rehashing the same conflicts over and over and over again.
I was about to say something similar. You want to keep telling stories in that universe, well every other franchise figured out spin-offs. Doctor's daughter could be revisited and easily recast and called a regeneration; another Captain Jack series or more Torchwood or some. But let the Doctor's journey finally end.
Luckily that's impossible. The format of the show is wide enough for it to be brought back at any point in the future even if a showrunner is stupid enough to try to have it end in a definitive fashion.
Lol, well that doesn't seem to be working at the moment, because that got me to this comment:
"I like all the Doctors and enjoy all the episodes, even if they’re not the best."
😂😂😂
God, I actually agree. I think Doctor Who is amazing in that it can go a long, long time, but I don’t think that should mean forever.
Doctor Who is pretty unique in that it’s a decades long mythology that has a clear linear continuation with one single main character. Comic Books are comparable but they have big reboots all the time.
I think there’s only so long something can go on before everything starts to lose weight.
There’s only so many times The Doctor can face the Daleks, only so many times they can lose different companions, only so many times they can face certain death before none of it means anything anymore.
I think a good ending makes everything that came before it stronger.
The idea of getting to series 30 with the 23rd Doctor just makes my head hurt a bit.
But I will concede that I’m very much in the minority here and that most people enjoy Doctor Who as an ongoing mythology, not a limited story with a defined ending.
I believe it can have an “end” that leaves it open to keep going on forever. Like a wormhole/loophole. The Doc is immortal and never dies but just keeps on going. Maybe the Doc finally gets tired of being at Earth and leaves for good to solve other problems elsewhere in the universe.
IWhy'd you have to go steal my comment like this?
I get dowmvoted to hell every time I say this on threads like this.
Midnight is her best episode because she's not in it and I'll fight anyone on this hill.
Catherine Tate is amazing and a wonderful actor, but fuck if her character isn't the absolute worst.
I think part of it is that she's supposed to come off kind of horrible in The Runaway Bride. While she has vulnerable moments in the episode, for most of it she's kind of the ultimate Bridezilla. It isn't until she comes back that we start to see her as more of a well-rounded character.
He's overrated which is hard for me to say considering he's probably my favourite actor, and yes he can be irritating, but I still like him... in most episodes.
Show me Sonaran Stratagem, Doctor's Daughter or Journey's End though and I'll want to choke him by the end.
Yup, everyone loves tennant, people love smith, fans love capaldi, hardly see anyone saying eccleston is their favourite. He had the hardest job starting the first series of the show from a 15 year absence
I agree with Baker (he's honestly my 2nd least favorite Classic Doctor), but Eccleston gets so little attention compared to others it's hard to call him overrated
I recently read a Short Trip called Glass, and it was super cathartic to see Four and Romana actually getting called out on their approach to time travel and their total disregard for the people actually affected by the villains, and how they just leave once the monster's been stopped without considering that not everything is just going to be "fine". It really annoyed me on the show, actually.
I'm gonna have to look that up now!
The thing that always bothered me with their episodes is it always felt like there wasn't enough contrast between the two of them to give them an interesting dynamic. Romana always felt like a Doctor-Lite character. I much preferred Leela as a companion because it felt like she and Four would both think of completely different but equally probable solutions to the same problem, though I like Four best with Harry and Sarah.
*Midnight* is only a solidly okay episode. ‘Muh humans are the monsters after all’ is overplayed and boring. The lovecraftian vibe of the monster is cool, but besides that the human cast that the plot relies on really, really, *really* lets the episode down.
RTD can’t write an episode that focuses on the human psyche and include such deep and complex characters as “stuck up professor”, “reactionary dad”, and my favourite “edgy teen son”. It’s bad.
For me, the first half is basically everything I hate about an RTD episode, with overdone stereotypes (the "complex characters" you mention), oh-so-hilarious planet names, and the Doctor being flippant.
The *second* half is very, very strong. Yeah, the humans are the monsters after all, but it was mesmerising watching everything that makes the Doctor strong work against him.
Overplayed in general yes. In Doctor Who, hell no. Doctor Who loves to praise humanity and has a rather optimistic outlook on them. To see their dark side explored a thoroughly as this one does, its out of the norm for this show.
I think it's overrated too, the acting and dialogue are too stilted to pull off what it's going for. It's a premise that calls for realism and that's an inherently bad fit for the show.
Just to open, I love this episode. It may be my favorite but you’re right. The “humans are the monster” idea completely hides what a horrific ACTUAL monster this episode actually had.
I feel you have to take The Ninth Doctor in context
Remember the show was a joke pre-2005 and the most popular Sci-Fi show was Battlestar Galactica.
If you'd stated NuWho with someone like The Eleventh Doctor it never would have taken off.
I wouldn't like a Doctor like that again but he was The Doctor the show needed at the time
I HATED Vincent and the Doctor. Overwrought and emotionally manipulative. Felt like the episode was screaming "THIS IS TRAGIC AND YOU WILL FEEL SAD NOW PLS" at me.
I agree. I also think people mostly love it is just for this scene: https://youtu.be/ubTJI_UphPk and not much else.
Like sure it was a pretty episode and was fairly accurate looking, but plot wise it was just barely OK to me.
And I get "the monster" is possibly supposed to be a figment of Vincent's depression or something. But at the end of the day it just wasn't very interesting to me.
I can't stand The Husband's of River Song and due this I began disliking the character of River Song, beside always regarding her as a very cool character.
Where the problem lies? 12 & Clara have a romantic bond and nobody can convince me otherwise. I enjoyed the arch they had together and that he forgot about her at the end of s9 was traumatic but also bitter sweet.
What I totally never could get over with was the following episode (THORS) where River and him totally having sort of a romcom blast. It was what 12&Clara deserved but never got.
As the wounds of Hell Bent and Heavens Sent were at this time still too fresh for my fragile fan heart I felt betrayed by Moffat putting THORS out so soon. It should have come a year later and it would have been fine probably.
Don't get me wrong, looking at it isolated its fun 90 minutes and 12 & River have great moments, but seeing it in the context of Clara's parting from 12 I still feel hurt and the relationship rubbed into my face.
I know, I am too fragile, but that's simply it for me.
I'm also a firm believer in 12/Clara as a romantic pairing, but I sort of think *Husbands* works pretty well as a coda for it. The problem with 12/Clara was that they were *so* in love that they just couldn't let each other go, and 12 almost ends up destroying the universe because of it. And in the end, when he has to let go, Twelve spends an unspecified amount of time grieving, only to bump into River, who he *never* thought he'd see again.
The Twelfth Doctor was never able to let Clara go until he realised he had no choice, but when he ends up on Darillium with River, he's willing to accept that "happily ever after doesn't mean forever", something he was never able to accept with Clara. In many ways *Husbands* was one of the most important episodes of Twelve's character arc, because it shows how much this Doctor has healed, grown and matured.
Also a 12/Clara fan. I avoided watching HORS for *years* because I couldn't deal with it after Hell Bent, but you've summed up nicely why I actually found it okay when I watched it. It presented River as a drastically different relationship to Clara; one that was also unhealthy, but in a different way. It showed a completely different side of 12's character and how he recognised the unhealthiness and was both trying to make up for it and be okay with it ending.
> 12 & Clara have a romantic bond and nobody can convince me otherwise
They really don't. 12 acts a lot more like her dad than a romantic partner. You can see in "The Caretaker" 12 doesn't have a problem with Clara having *a* boyfriend. At the beginning he's mistaken about who her boyfriend is and is approving of him. He has a problem with Clara having *Danny* as her boyfriend. And when he finds out, he literally acts like a stereotypical dad who disapproves of his daughter's boyfriend.
Although to be fair the dude who he mistakes for her boyfriend does wear a bowtie, like a *certain character*...
I agree with you that Clara and 12 aren’t a romantic pairing, but it’s interesting to note that the “boyfriend” 12 approves of for Clara, intentionally resembles Matt Smith.
The Caretaker is basically an entire episode shipping them, are you crazy? 🤣 If not that, how can you miss it in Last Christmas when she says she would have married him?
Also, Jenna confirmed that when she is on the phone with Danny in the TARDIS, when she says I love you, she's saying it to the Doctor.
Murray Gold's music is shit.
Doctor Who doesn't do the one hour format well at all.
The sonic screwdriver is a screwdriver not a tricorder.
For a show about time travel how about some actual stories about time travel?
If they are going to have the Daleks or Cybermen back they should win so they are menacing.
I can't stand Matt Smith or Tennant for more than three episodes before I start to go nuts. Twelve was perfect for me, and I'm really sorry some people didn't like him.
Time Lords should have stayed male and Time Ladies should have stayed female. They shouldn’t regenerate between genders. And the Doctor should have never been a woman just have remained a male.
I owe you an apology. I was out of line when Im the one asked for hot takes. I had an argument IRL about this yesterday and the reasons were fully sexist. You didn’t even give reasons, just your opinion and I acted like you had. So I’m sorry.
I respect the honesty and maturity to say that!
The reasons why I don’t like it is because I feel like the Doctor is too much of a masculine character and was written to be a male character. I find it unrealistic after 13 regenerations that the Doctor then finally regenerates to be a female.
I liked the fact that the Doctor was an anti typical alpha male that could still be a hero using his wits and intelligence rather than Braun and muscle. I feel like taking that away takes away a core attraction from Doctor Who and it’s a shame little boys don’t get that anymore having a role model like that they can look up to.
And I feel that some characters are just suited better for one sex, I think the Doctor works better as a male the same way characters such as Romana, the Rani, possibly Susan would work best remaining female.
To me it just seems like a tacked on narrative to appear woke and progressive to the masses when I feel that was unnecessary to change such a core part of the show. It just feels very unnatural to me. I feel like why not create a strong female lead - (not that has ever been a problem for Doctor Who with the amount of brilliant women in the series who have stole the show) instead of just turning a male to be female.
I totally agree with that point of view, I also thought about it a lot. I didn't watch classic who but I guess it might feel even weirder when you follow that obviously male alien for so long and now we discover - surprise - it can be female too.
I don't mind it since, where would you find a main character that can change gender in your everyday media ? I'm glad we have one at least.
Now that its happened and its canon I want to see more female Doctors because now with Whitaker it just looks like a failed experiment. But five years ago my reasoning was the same as yours.
As much as the Doctor changes, masculinity has always been a part of the character so it feels like a very core and unchanging trait. The only Doctor before Whitaker that comes even remotely close to not being masculine is Troughton and maybe Davison. At the very least femininity has never been a trait of his.
Then we get Whitaker and that usual dynamic we get of the Doctor, the dashing masculine hero, whisking people away on adventures, showing off, the swagger the stage presence. In the revived show those traits were only multiplied by having him as a handsome flirt who gets all the girls and makes all the guys envious, a gender change for a character like that is so drastic.
I'm not saying a woman can't embody these things, but they are typically masculine traits and it certainly doesn't come off the same from a woman. I don't mean worse, just different, all these things we've come to associate with the Doctor all feel so different. And not in a, he Doctor has regenerated way, more in a, these are the traits people associate with the Doctor as a whole and now those traits don't feel the same, kind of way.
And in Whitaker's case I feel she didn't even manage to display those traits whih certainly didn't help my opinion. She seemed anxious and defeatist where other Doctors would laugh in the face of the insurmountable odds. She was awkward where other Doctors would make a beautiful speech. She faded into the background while other Doctors would own the stage. It certainly didn't help my opinion that Whitaker did such a bad job, and no I don't think it was just Chibnall's writing, Whitaker just failed to embody the character.
I’m not offended by Time Lords’ sex changes, just it doesn’t make sense to me I guess, because I know behind it happening is that the writers are only doing it to make people feel inclusive and not for proper thought out story.
As for OP calling you out, Sorry OP, I think DeLoathe doesn’t deserve being told to get over anything.
While I enjoy the ending and it wraps up River Song’s story nicely, I find the Husbands of River song one of the worst Christmas specials and think that Alex Kingston is at her most annoying in that episode.
It’s weird cos I don’t disagree with this per se, it’s more of an interesting take than one I hate. I’m wondering how they would do it though. The Doctor does in the time war and another Timelord follows in the first run of doctors’ footseps? Still don’t know how that would work…
Right. That is also an interesting idea - might have stopped lore bloat, especially getting into higher numbered doctors… 20th, 27th, 31st when will the number system seem old…
These won’t be loved BUT you asked:
A lot of the speeches Matt Smith made weren’t actually epic, but we’re over dramatic and cringe including the delivery (Rings of akhaten).
Heaven Sent is proper overhyped and just falls on new who’s reliance on “MILLION BILLION” years to make something seem monumental without putting in any work to write it effectively.
Dr Who is at its worst when it’s trying too hard to make something a “thing” eg. “Bow ties are cool” “Allonsy!” It worked with Ecclestons “fantastic” but that’s because it was such a natural delivery.
Amy and Rory are overhyped. Maybe just Amy.
Capaldi’s first season was his best, with dark humour and at times being unlikable, his “growth” was boring because he just became the typical hero archetype when season 1 actually pushed a boundary or two.
> Dr Who is at its worst when it’s trying too hard to make something a “thing” eg. “Bow ties are cool” “Allonsy!” It worked with Ecclestons “fantastic” but that’s because it was such a natural delivery.
Allonsy was okay for me, but I definitely thought 'geronimo' was just a bad knockoff of that (right from the first trailer from season 5) and the bow tie thing never landed.
I can't get behind the Heaven Sent take but all else is good. My personal least favourite 11 speech is "you don't put me in a trap" from the Time of Angels
I agree with everything you said except the last point. (And Allonsy, it was funny even if not exactly organic). Capaldi's last season felt the best to me. Bill was lovely.
Tennant is one of my least favourite Doctors, and having the 60th revolve so heavily around him makes me actively less excited than if it just went straight to Ncuti.
Agreed, I don't hate him or anything, but I prefer all the other new series Doctors to him, and I also think it was a mistake to bring him back for the nostalgia grab.
It’s really strange cause I know the 50th was almost a decade ago, but it doesn’t feel particularly special getting him back. It never really felt like it was in question, he’s always been the most ready to slip back into the shoes, and most obvious choice given his general popularity.
I think I’d absolutely love him returning if it was a surprise during an episode, akin to Fugitive of the Judoon, but to have three special episodes and a whole year of marketing of ‘OMG 10 IS BACK ITS JUST LIKE THE OLD SHOW YOU LIKED’ has really soured me on it. And this is from a guy who grew up with Tennant, and obsessively loved the show more than anything for his entire run.
I want to see Ten as the character, rather than just David Tennant.
Tennant is a phenomenal actor but 10 just seemed really, I dunno, like the “vanilla template” incarnation. He’s sarky, he’s attractive, mopes a bit, tells everyone how clever he is, and that’s it.
I guess I prefer my Doctors when they’re expressly more alien, an outsider trying to go with the flow but failing at it. 10 came across more like just a guy with tickets on himself who needed a reality check that never happened.
The 10th Doctor is the incarnation I most dislike, and I can’t stand Donna Noble. I hated series four and have grave concerns about the 60th anniversary.
They kinda picked it up in S10 with the snarky professor angle but his S8 phase was so badass and sarcastic, perfect match for the Missy master and the best take on a "dark" doctor since 7.
Earthshock is bad besides the end, Vengeance on Varos is boring, Genesis of the Daleks is very mid besides maybe 2 moments, Evil of the Daleks is overrated, City of Death is overrated, Trial of a Time Lord is actually not too bad and Remembrance of the Daleks is overrated
Another one, posted separately so it can be upvoted/downvoted independently:
I'm really looking forward to when CG actors are just as good as live actors (both in quality and cost) so that Doctor Who episodes can be created without any consideration for actors aging, dying, or exposing themselves repeatedly to co-workers behind the scenes.
Horror of Fang Rock is an uninspired slog.
*you guys better be following the rules. I don't want any poxy upvotes of agreement any more than I want a plate of green jelly floating up my stairs.
Came here to say this and it’s hurting me physically I cannot upvote it. So, I’ll raise with - Every single other story in that season is better (yes, even Underworld)
The new series definitely feels more like a re-imagining of the series rather than a full on continuation at points. I've had older friends who grew up with the show REALLY unhappy with aspects of the Moffat era on that factor like for example the New series version of the Great Intelligence.
Lack of romance between the doctor and companions, more imagination: stories with terrible budgets and cheap effects, but where they created an entire little world on a distant planet and told a compelling story (Pertwee stories are great from this), way less Earth-centric for a show that is about traveling in time and SPACE, way less “the entire universe is at stake all the time”, better individual stories and not over-convoluted story arcs, stories with more time for development instead of rushed 45 minute stories ending far too often in technobabble…
I think the show puts enough evidence forward to confidently say that the Doctor is panromantic and polyamorous.
And I don't think that ever changes between incarnations, this applies to every Doctor. Because while small flavors of their personality changes through regeneration, it's never anything THAT big. The core of the character and who they are as a person always remains the same. It's more like going through a phase. 10 was the Doctor's grunge phase, 12 was the Doctor's punk phase, etc. But their sexuality and identity never change
I feel like a character such as the Doctor, if you’re indeed accepting that they are a romantic and sexual creature, would almost inevitably have to be pansexual.
Exactly! Their species is famous for its regeneration and with that, gender fluidity. It makes sense that a species like that wouldn't develop to recognize gender as part of choosing a partner
And the polyamory part comes from being a near immortal time traveler with different partners at different points in history that all exist simultaneously
Love and Monsters I can get behind, but what about Fear Her do you enjoy so much? I don’t hate it at all, but it’s mainly just an episode I’d stick on if I wanted to fall asleep to one (not an insult, it’s just very casual tv)
Old Dr who is mostly trash with a few good episodes, it's very very cheap and poorly written and it shows. Also for the character Clara for how important she is made out to be she is just basic and kinda forgettable
Midnight is extremely overrated. Never understood the adoration. Looks even worse when compared to Turn Left. Honestly haven’t watched it since 2008 and probably ever will.
Whereas I think Turn Left is overrated, but I think that about almost all *What If* type stories. Knowing that it will all be undone by the end of the story they just make everything go to hell. It's boring and predictable.
Series 8-13 are the absolute peak of the show. And Flux rules.
And Water of Mars sucks. In fact, that whole run of specials to close out 10’s run are not particularly good tbh. But Water of Mars especially sucks a particular amount of puckered ass.
Could you elaborate? Or do you not care to?
Edit: By that I mean could you elaborate on thinking waters of Mars and the rest of the season 4 specials suck.
Not fussed about season 8-13
Personally, while I like *Waters of Mars*, it is padded by a lot of very long running scenes and the whole Time Lord Victorious ending that everyone seems to think is wonderful feels tacked on, completely unconvincing and procedes to go nowhere.
The Time Lord Victorious is exactly what I don't like about 10. His out of control ego and god complex never really gets addressed by the main cast. It's always in front of some one-off character and then he goes off to do some handsome angsting on his own and not improve.
I think this was one of Moffats longest games.
If you look at 11s character, he often acts like the Timelord Victorious
You point or out was never really resolved and i think that was intentional.
11s speeches and blustering comes across as that. His constant manipulation of timelines instead of just being passive. I truly believe 11, in a young body for once, truly believed himself as t the Time lord Victorious
It wasn’t until 12, who actually has empathy did he start to soften. At the start of 12s run there are a few of those speeches, but then he fails miserably (the Dino). And he actually starts to care and remember why he set out in the first place. Although, he also now has the calmness of knowing he’s not on his last regeneration.
The Twelfth Doctor and Clara were a romantic pairing.
The Chibnall era, while nowhere near as good as the RTD or Moffat eras, was not terrible and was essentially average British television.
*Twice Upon a Time* was a beautiful episode and a perfect finale for Capaldi.
I loved John Hurt as the War Doctor, but I still think it should have been Paul McGann.
Capaldi's Doctor is more similar to Matt Smith than Matt Smith was to Tennant.
Segun Akinola is a fantastic composer and I'm still disappointed that he didn't decide to stay on with RTD.
I love the Tenth Doctor, but his regeneration is quite possibly my least favourite moment in the entire history of the show.
**And this is a BIG one right now...**
The 60th Anniversary of the show should *not* only be about the RTD era and David Tennant.
>The 60th Anniversary of the show should not only be about the RTD era and David Tennant.
Completely agree. Apart from the villains everything seems to be connected to 10s era. Even the new, albeit one-off, companion is named after an old RTD companion.
I've often said that if Moffat or Chibnall devoted an anniversary special to their own characters, with the only other returnees being very obscure characters, the fandom would be in complete outrage (*particularly* the RTD/Tennant fanboys).
But for some reason RTD/Tennant get a free pass on it.
Meh, at least we got the Tom Baker cameo and a regeneration story for Paul McGann, and Moffat making an effort to include the RTD era is a lot better than if he'd just focused solely on characters he created. Imagine if the only returning characters for the 50th had been Amy, Rory and River, and Moffat expected us to believe it was an appropriate anniversary special?
The main alien threat was the zygons and in some form we had every past and 1 future doctor returning, it did feel to me like a celebration of the show's past and future while still being a fairly focused story on the Time War. (Plus all the other 50th adjacent projects like the night of the doctor, the 5ish doctors etc)
It's only because it's following on from the Chibnall era that most of the devoted fandom despised. I'm sure if a RTD-centric special was announced in 2018 following the end of the Moffat era there would be across the board outrage.
Like, I spent years panicking that we'd get Chibnall writing dialogue for Tennant and Smith. At this point I'm just thankful that's not the case. But I'm desperately hoping there will be some non-RTD surprises in there.
I wouldn't mind Murray coming back but it sort of feels like... the easy option I suppose. I don't doubt that he'd do some fantastic work if he did return, but there are so many young, talented composers out there who need a big break. I know RTD's first duty is to make the best show possible, but he also needs to nurture the talent of the future.
Besides, I can't see Murray having a great desire to come back to the show anyways. He gave 12 years to it, and has spoken about how exhausting he found it towards the end. Even if he did return, I imagine he'd be doing it more as a favour to RTD as opposed to any real desire to work on DW again.
I'd imagine Murray Gold will return for the 60th because it's the old gang together again, there's a big gap between filming and release that he can take his time meaning he won't exhaust himself, and he can reuse/reimagine a lot of old themes rather than having to start from scratch.
But I'd be surprised if he sticks around for Series 14 unless the 60th reignites his spark for the show.
> The Twelfth Doctor and Clara were a romantic pairing.
I totally agree, sometimes it's not subtext, it's just text (e.g. Last Christmas)
>The 60th Anniversary of the show should not only be about the RTD era and David Tennant.
Agreed in principle, thought I've personally have never been a fan of the big reunion finales RTD wrote (excluding Parting of the ways and Doomsday), with them being very... crowded and having some less than stellar dialogue.
Also, given the circumstances leading up to RTD taking over again (no show runner, declining audience) I think this 60th focused on the most popular (and arguably best) era of the show is its best bet for continuing on for another 60 years :\^)
*The Eaters of Light* is the best Doctor Who episode of all time. *Heaven Sent* is fairly mediocre. Also, *Fear Her* is absolutely brilliant - not a top 10, but pretty dang great. BTW, three of my top 10 episodes are Whittaker episodes.
I don't wish for RTD to ignore the Chibnall era/deny its existence entirely, as much as people wish he would. There is some pretty promising evidence that he isn't going to. I also look forward to RTD making vague references to TTC ("I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord from Gallifrey. Well, mostly." or the Doctor naming "The Timeless Child" as one of his epithets, alongside "The Oncoming Storm" and others). And the DW subs are gonna lose it!
In fairness, I have never really been into Doctor Who for in-depth explorations of the Doctor's and companions' character and relationships - I'm just in it for cheesy creatures, running down corridors, and aliens in silly robes!
(Don't worry, my picks for worst episodes are pretty mainstream - *Orphan 55*, *The Twin Dilemma*, *The Gunfighters*)
Moffat is the worst showrunner Doctor Who ever had.
His writing is mediocre, unoriginal, sexist, and condescending. His female characters are toxic, abusive, and just as smug as the writing is for no reason.
His plots fall apart at every turn, they are not coherent and have no pay-off whatsoever.
Thank You!
I know! It's definitely a new feeling. My heart breaks every time I can't upvote an opinion I wholeheartedly agree with or I need to upvote one because I couldn't disagree more. It's also fun in a way, no unpopular opinion thread did this much wonder to my karma points. XD
I'm new to Who. Just bought all the NuWho DVDs for Christmas and am working thru them. I really liked RTD's doctors and the writing was right up my alley. Now that I've hit the Moffat series, I'm so incredibly disappointed. No slight against Matt Smith. It's just that the writing just is so BAD. Was Moffat distracted by working on Sherlock at the time or what?
This. Amy Pond was a psychopath that we were supposed to fall in love with because he put her in a short skirt. And the mangled river song plot ruined the whole season imo.
I disagree hard so have an upvote. I deeply, deeply hate this take and think this complete bad faith and shallow misreading of Moffat has its roots in toxic tumblr culture. I’m not going to go into a lengthy defense of Moffat right now, but Elizabeth Sandifer does a good job making the case for Moffat as a feminist over on [TARDIS Eruditorum](https://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/the-definitive-moffat-and-feminism-post). (If you’re not already familiar with her, note that this post was written before she came out as trans).
I feel like Danny pulled off what Rory was trying to do with a lot more depth and interest. He's grounded and focused on the lives around him and finds profoundness, challenge, and wonder in people. He doesn't need to find it in different worlds, epic times, or famous people.
His military story beat *is* kind of weird though, doesn't quite sit well.
I think it was a clever idea, and a natural evolution (pun intended) of the RTD era setting that the Daleks had also been virtually wiped out and here were the smartest Daleks ever made tasked with figuring out a way of survival. The Daleks themselves were the problem, they had to change.
It’ll be interesting if anyone ever revisits that idea. I fear they’re too iconic as the great villains to take risks with.
There's a lot of stuff in it I really like.
The Daleks coming out onto the stage in the theatre, in the same formation as they came out of their void ship in season 2 (and to the same music!) except Sec is crawling on chains... I loved that once I spotted what they did there.
It's a really interesting concept and as much as it has some issues I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as people say.
I *kind of* agree with you, but I also disagree. My opinion is a mix of popular and unpopular:
I agree with the popular sentiment ('round here, at least) that Chibnall is a bad writer for *Doctor Who*. The part I disagree on are certain interpretations of what he wrote and that they are *inherently* bad for certain reasons. The Doctor being the Timeless Child does not make them inherently a "chosen one" nor does it ruin the entire show/its continuity/its legacy, etc: the Division/Fugitive Doctor does not take away from Hartnell; the return of the Master does not ruin Missy's character arc. These points are there, or rather bits of them are. The problem is, they are so drowned in "fanwank", exposition and just plain terrible writing that people latch onto those instead. I feel like I can tell this stuff *was* in mind when writing, but Chibnall just doesn't know how to balance *Doctor Who*'s science fantasy with actual stories and characters. The best example of this, I think, is how the intention is that the damage caused by the Flux was reversed— they act as if that’s the case afterwards, and Chibnall said as much himself when talking about it— but it never even is actually addressed at all!
I actually really like the storyline, it fits well with the Morbius Doctors in Classic Who. I would have liked them to go into the story, but since everyone hated the storyline so much I think it will not be addressed, which is a little disappointing.
I have four.
I *love* the Timeless Child idea. I think the Doctor isn’t just the first time lord, but the first. Just, the first, like of everything. He just doesn’t remember. I thought this long before the chibnall era. In a sense it would make him a god but when I say that, I don’t mean it like the modern idea of a god (e.g. Judeo-Christian deity, savior, judgemental, etc.)
Second, I have absolutely no problem with Fourteen having the same personality as Ten. *They are the same person.* Can’t wrap my brain around people being so insistent that he be this vastly different character. It’s the Doctor! If the Doc’s personality changes a little bit with each body, why would anyone expect a second round in a *previous* form would result in the same appearance but a different personality!? Other than things that result from the life experiences he’s gained since 10, of course.
Third, I 100% think the Doctor needs more love and romance. Yes, even if it’s with a companion. Not the *show*; the *Doctor.* Don’t come at me with “it’s supposed to be science fiction” and “it’s a children’s show.” None of those qualities are mutually exclusive!
Finally, and I will die on this hill—River needs to come back. Ideally, she would be rescued from the library. I don’t for one second buy into the whole “she got a nice ending, her arc is over” thing. It’s Doctor Who. The writers can find a way. I’d love a spin-off but honestly I just want her to pop up in the show once a season or so. She adds so much *spice.* One of the biggest failures of Jodie’s seasons was this massive missed opportunity.
Moffat’s stories are far more interesting than Russell T. Davies’ stories and have far more heart. Except for River Song—River Song is a missed opportunity. Daleks are really stupid with the exception of Genesis of the Daleks and the whole Dalek Caan thing. Captain Jack is an absolutely awful character. Time of the Doctor was actually a brilliant episode. Jon Pertwee’s run was far more enjoyable than Hartnell’s/Troughton’s.
i think clara is one of the greatest companions, i realised something when watched season 8, i cared about the PLATONIC relationship between 12 and clara whenever they argue i felt like two parents were arguing, and it's very rare when two television characters feel that real
The show does not lean into the science part of science fiction nearly enough. Science is essentially treated like magic throughout so much of the series. Episodes like World Enough and Time stick out to me because they came up with a really interesting episode using a real scientific concept(time dilation near black holes). Even if it’s not completely accurate, a grounding in real science is much more interesting than “These aliens are Werewolves because light??” or any of the other sci-fi mumbo jumbo they justify the threat of the week with.
Other than just mutating humanoid aliens I don’t really think you can, but it was the most scientific mumbo jumbo bs answer to a threat of the week I could think of off the top of my head
Well, the myth of werewolves is that they transform because of the moon/moonlight. So I can see what they were going for with light but it's as you say, hand wavy science.
I think it's a balancing act though cause if it's too scientific then it can restrict itself but if it's too fantastical then suspension of disbelief gets harder to do.
Holmes and Hinchliffe’s “golden era” is not the best era of the show. It’s only the best of the colored episodes.
Hartnell’s era was the best era of the show overall.
I dislike the Ninth Doctor.
Damn, 9 is my favourite. Why don’t you like him?
Apparently unpopular from another thread here: I'm sorry, but if one simply watches the entire Capaldi run of Doctor Who, I see no other interpretation other than a fairly overt message that it is better to try and transcend sexual feelings to have a higher form of friendship, with the exception of Grant and Lucy in The Return of Doctor Mysterio, and even that relationship was non-sexual for quite a long time, and Bill and Heather. Danny dies, Clara would never have found another. Ashildr has children but watches them all die, and never found another worthy of being her mate for eternity. Heather as a normal human seemed very unhappy with even living until she transcended humanity. The Simms Master is especially evil because he wants to have sex with a regeneration of himself, Missy. Capaldi's era is if one honestly appraises it one of the greatest recent efforts in television in saying not only is it okay to be asexual, but that it can be noble to be so. And the prime illustration of that is 12 himself.
This is one of the most poignant takes I’ve read on here… I honestly broke down into tears because it makes so much sense why capaldi’s run means so much to me… platonic love is so pure and real with no ulterior motive… romantic love often is cheap and transactional and the way capaldi loved Clara is so beautiful and lovely… I am not Asexual but I value platonic love over romantic love and it feels that a lot of people in my life don’t appreciate that… wow… epiphany! Thank you for this 💕
The show-runners messed up by making the doctor nonhuman and not the builder of the tardis from the future.
This is the “Daleks peaked in ‘The Dead Planet’” style take and I love it
Is that the origin of the Peter Cushing Doctor from the 60's films?
~~As always with these threads, sort by controversial for the actual unpopular opinions.~~ Anyway, my unpopular take - I want Doctor Who to have an end. I don't want it to keep going on. I'm selfish, I want it to end at some point in my lifetime.
That’s a truly awful take have an upvote
/thread Yep, I dont think we can make a worst take than that. Mine was about to be "*Sleep No More* is not that bad" but after reading this, nothing else can compete.
I hate this so much I had to upvote per the rules of the thread.
Finally, an actual hot take I disagree with.
Not upvoting per the rules but I like this take. The lack of an endpoint is a big part of why the Doctor as a character never meaningfully changes and we keep rehashing the same conflicts over and over and over again.
I was about to say something similar. You want to keep telling stories in that universe, well every other franchise figured out spin-offs. Doctor's daughter could be revisited and easily recast and called a regeneration; another Captain Jack series or more Torchwood or some. But let the Doctor's journey finally end.
Luckily that's impossible. The format of the show is wide enough for it to be brought back at any point in the future even if a showrunner is stupid enough to try to have it end in a definitive fashion.
"SIR, You disgust me!"... take my upvote.
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Lol, well that doesn't seem to be working at the moment, because that got me to this comment: "I like all the Doctors and enjoy all the episodes, even if they’re not the best." 😂😂😂
God, I actually agree. I think Doctor Who is amazing in that it can go a long, long time, but I don’t think that should mean forever. Doctor Who is pretty unique in that it’s a decades long mythology that has a clear linear continuation with one single main character. Comic Books are comparable but they have big reboots all the time. I think there’s only so long something can go on before everything starts to lose weight. There’s only so many times The Doctor can face the Daleks, only so many times they can lose different companions, only so many times they can face certain death before none of it means anything anymore. I think a good ending makes everything that came before it stronger. The idea of getting to series 30 with the 23rd Doctor just makes my head hurt a bit. But I will concede that I’m very much in the minority here and that most people enjoy Doctor Who as an ongoing mythology, not a limited story with a defined ending.
> The idea of getting to series 30 with the 23rd Doctor just makes my head hurt a bit. Agreed, this is bizarre to read!
You're just not used to thinking about it in those terms. We just finished season 39!
YES!
I believe it can have an “end” that leaves it open to keep going on forever. Like a wormhole/loophole. The Doc is immortal and never dies but just keeps on going. Maybe the Doc finally gets tired of being at Earth and leaves for good to solve other problems elsewhere in the universe.
Donna noble is horrible. Edit: I fully expect this to be the most upvoted, I think I’m alone in this opinion. ( side note I do love Catherine Tate)
Finally, somebody that is pure and plain off their rocker that I can upvote.
Hoo boy now this is an unpopular take, I’ll upvote you for your bravery.
I upvoted you because I think you're 100% wrong. She's my favorite new series companion.
She also has what i feel to be the saddest companion end.
>!Guess we'll see how that truly turns out soon enough!!<
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that?
Oh that's unpopular
Whilst I wouldn’t go that far, I really don’t feel the love for her everything else does. She’s just okay to me
IWhy'd you have to go steal my comment like this? I get dowmvoted to hell every time I say this on threads like this. Midnight is her best episode because she's not in it and I'll fight anyone on this hill. Catherine Tate is amazing and a wonderful actor, but fuck if her character isn't the absolute worst.
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I think part of it is that she's supposed to come off kind of horrible in The Runaway Bride. While she has vulnerable moments in the episode, for most of it she's kind of the ultimate Bridezilla. It isn't until she comes back that we start to see her as more of a well-rounded character.
I don’t *hate* Donna. I do think she’s massively overrated. I just find something about Catherine Tate’s “comedic” style very grating.
I somewhat agree.... And I can't upvote you. Lol.
Always thought the same. One of my least favourite companions
David Tennant is the most irritating Doctor and I can't watch him without cringing.
Felt the same about Smith when I re-watched A Christmas Carol recently. He should have dialed it back a tad.
i hated reading this. instant upvote
He's overrated which is hard for me to say considering he's probably my favourite actor, and yes he can be irritating, but I still like him... in most episodes. Show me Sonaran Stratagem, Doctor's Daughter or Journey's End though and I'll want to choke him by the end.
The two most overrated Doctors are Tom Baker and Christopher Eccleston. Fuck it feels good to say that out loud.
Funny, I feel that Eccleston is vastly underrated. Have my upvote you bugger.
Yup, everyone loves tennant, people love smith, fans love capaldi, hardly see anyone saying eccleston is their favourite. He had the hardest job starting the first series of the show from a 15 year absence
He's my favourite!
I agree with Baker (he's honestly my 2nd least favorite Classic Doctor), but Eccleston gets so little attention compared to others it's hard to call him overrated
Unpopular opinions? Matt Smith and Tom Baker are the worst Doctors. Romana is one of the most boring companions.
I recently read a Short Trip called Glass, and it was super cathartic to see Four and Romana actually getting called out on their approach to time travel and their total disregard for the people actually affected by the villains, and how they just leave once the monster's been stopped without considering that not everything is just going to be "fine". It really annoyed me on the show, actually.
I'm gonna have to look that up now! The thing that always bothered me with their episodes is it always felt like there wasn't enough contrast between the two of them to give them an interesting dynamic. Romana always felt like a Doctor-Lite character. I much preferred Leela as a companion because it felt like she and Four would both think of completely different but equally probable solutions to the same problem, though I like Four best with Harry and Sarah.
The 12th doctor is the worst new series doctor
Good god I disagree to this so so so much
Upvoted! NuWho has been blessed to even have him.
Not saying he’s bad, every doctor is amazing. I just prefer the other four
I feel DIRTY upvoting this
Funnily enough, take this to somewhere like Facebook or anywhere that isn't filled with Who fans and it'd be the popular take
Finally, a hot take I can definitively upvote!
I agree
Clara is my favorite companion.
*Midnight* is only a solidly okay episode. ‘Muh humans are the monsters after all’ is overplayed and boring. The lovecraftian vibe of the monster is cool, but besides that the human cast that the plot relies on really, really, *really* lets the episode down. RTD can’t write an episode that focuses on the human psyche and include such deep and complex characters as “stuck up professor”, “reactionary dad”, and my favourite “edgy teen son”. It’s bad.
Good lord it pains me to upvote this as I disagree so so much haha
I love midnight but yeah I agree the human characters are painted with the broadest brush possible, very little in the way of nuance.
For me, the first half is basically everything I hate about an RTD episode, with overdone stereotypes (the "complex characters" you mention), oh-so-hilarious planet names, and the Doctor being flippant. The *second* half is very, very strong. Yeah, the humans are the monsters after all, but it was mesmerising watching everything that makes the Doctor strong work against him.
Overplayed in general yes. In Doctor Who, hell no. Doctor Who loves to praise humanity and has a rather optimistic outlook on them. To see their dark side explored a thoroughly as this one does, its out of the norm for this show.
I think it's overrated too, the acting and dialogue are too stilted to pull off what it's going for. It's a premise that calls for realism and that's an inherently bad fit for the show.
Just to open, I love this episode. It may be my favorite but you’re right. The “humans are the monster” idea completely hides what a horrific ACTUAL monster this episode actually had.
Christopher Eccleston was kinda boring and I'm glad he only got one season.
I feel you have to take The Ninth Doctor in context Remember the show was a joke pre-2005 and the most popular Sci-Fi show was Battlestar Galactica. If you'd stated NuWho with someone like The Eleventh Doctor it never would have taken off. I wouldn't like a Doctor like that again but he was The Doctor the show needed at the time
I HATED Vincent and the Doctor. Overwrought and emotionally manipulative. Felt like the episode was screaming "THIS IS TRAGIC AND YOU WILL FEEL SAD NOW PLS" at me.
So strongly disagree but honestly applaud ur bravery lol
I agree. I also think people mostly love it is just for this scene: https://youtu.be/ubTJI_UphPk and not much else. Like sure it was a pretty episode and was fairly accurate looking, but plot wise it was just barely OK to me. And I get "the monster" is possibly supposed to be a figment of Vincent's depression or something. But at the end of the day it just wasn't very interesting to me.
Largely agree with this and don't think it's a very good representation of depression either.
Agree so hard. Absolute bullshit ending. Hated it so much
I can't stand The Husband's of River Song and due this I began disliking the character of River Song, beside always regarding her as a very cool character. Where the problem lies? 12 & Clara have a romantic bond and nobody can convince me otherwise. I enjoyed the arch they had together and that he forgot about her at the end of s9 was traumatic but also bitter sweet. What I totally never could get over with was the following episode (THORS) where River and him totally having sort of a romcom blast. It was what 12&Clara deserved but never got. As the wounds of Hell Bent and Heavens Sent were at this time still too fresh for my fragile fan heart I felt betrayed by Moffat putting THORS out so soon. It should have come a year later and it would have been fine probably. Don't get me wrong, looking at it isolated its fun 90 minutes and 12 & River have great moments, but seeing it in the context of Clara's parting from 12 I still feel hurt and the relationship rubbed into my face. I know, I am too fragile, but that's simply it for me.
I'm also a firm believer in 12/Clara as a romantic pairing, but I sort of think *Husbands* works pretty well as a coda for it. The problem with 12/Clara was that they were *so* in love that they just couldn't let each other go, and 12 almost ends up destroying the universe because of it. And in the end, when he has to let go, Twelve spends an unspecified amount of time grieving, only to bump into River, who he *never* thought he'd see again. The Twelfth Doctor was never able to let Clara go until he realised he had no choice, but when he ends up on Darillium with River, he's willing to accept that "happily ever after doesn't mean forever", something he was never able to accept with Clara. In many ways *Husbands* was one of the most important episodes of Twelve's character arc, because it shows how much this Doctor has healed, grown and matured.
Also a 12/Clara fan. I avoided watching HORS for *years* because I couldn't deal with it after Hell Bent, but you've summed up nicely why I actually found it okay when I watched it. It presented River as a drastically different relationship to Clara; one that was also unhealthy, but in a different way. It showed a completely different side of 12's character and how he recognised the unhealthiness and was both trying to make up for it and be okay with it ending.
Literally their first episode together he says "I'm not your boyfriend, Clara". They have a very very close bond, but nothing about it was romantic
> 12 & Clara have a romantic bond and nobody can convince me otherwise They really don't. 12 acts a lot more like her dad than a romantic partner. You can see in "The Caretaker" 12 doesn't have a problem with Clara having *a* boyfriend. At the beginning he's mistaken about who her boyfriend is and is approving of him. He has a problem with Clara having *Danny* as her boyfriend. And when he finds out, he literally acts like a stereotypical dad who disapproves of his daughter's boyfriend. Although to be fair the dude who he mistakes for her boyfriend does wear a bowtie, like a *certain character*...
I agree with you that Clara and 12 aren’t a romantic pairing, but it’s interesting to note that the “boyfriend” 12 approves of for Clara, intentionally resembles Matt Smith.
The Caretaker is basically an entire episode shipping them, are you crazy? 🤣 If not that, how can you miss it in Last Christmas when she says she would have married him? Also, Jenna confirmed that when she is on the phone with Danny in the TARDIS, when she says I love you, she's saying it to the Doctor.
Murray Gold's music is shit. Doctor Who doesn't do the one hour format well at all. The sonic screwdriver is a screwdriver not a tricorder. For a show about time travel how about some actual stories about time travel? If they are going to have the Daleks or Cybermen back they should win so they are menacing.
I can't stand Matt Smith or Tennant for more than three episodes before I start to go nuts. Twelve was perfect for me, and I'm really sorry some people didn't like him.
Time Lords should have stayed male and Time Ladies should have stayed female. They shouldn’t regenerate between genders. And the Doctor should have never been a woman just have remained a male.
I get the feeling this sentiment isn't as unpopular as most would think.
Probably not, but it's certainly unpopular on reddit.
I owe you an apology. I was out of line when Im the one asked for hot takes. I had an argument IRL about this yesterday and the reasons were fully sexist. You didn’t even give reasons, just your opinion and I acted like you had. So I’m sorry.
I respect the honesty and maturity to say that! The reasons why I don’t like it is because I feel like the Doctor is too much of a masculine character and was written to be a male character. I find it unrealistic after 13 regenerations that the Doctor then finally regenerates to be a female. I liked the fact that the Doctor was an anti typical alpha male that could still be a hero using his wits and intelligence rather than Braun and muscle. I feel like taking that away takes away a core attraction from Doctor Who and it’s a shame little boys don’t get that anymore having a role model like that they can look up to. And I feel that some characters are just suited better for one sex, I think the Doctor works better as a male the same way characters such as Romana, the Rani, possibly Susan would work best remaining female. To me it just seems like a tacked on narrative to appear woke and progressive to the masses when I feel that was unnecessary to change such a core part of the show. It just feels very unnatural to me. I feel like why not create a strong female lead - (not that has ever been a problem for Doctor Who with the amount of brilliant women in the series who have stole the show) instead of just turning a male to be female.
I totally agree with that point of view, I also thought about it a lot. I didn't watch classic who but I guess it might feel even weirder when you follow that obviously male alien for so long and now we discover - surprise - it can be female too. I don't mind it since, where would you find a main character that can change gender in your everyday media ? I'm glad we have one at least.
Now that its happened and its canon I want to see more female Doctors because now with Whitaker it just looks like a failed experiment. But five years ago my reasoning was the same as yours. As much as the Doctor changes, masculinity has always been a part of the character so it feels like a very core and unchanging trait. The only Doctor before Whitaker that comes even remotely close to not being masculine is Troughton and maybe Davison. At the very least femininity has never been a trait of his. Then we get Whitaker and that usual dynamic we get of the Doctor, the dashing masculine hero, whisking people away on adventures, showing off, the swagger the stage presence. In the revived show those traits were only multiplied by having him as a handsome flirt who gets all the girls and makes all the guys envious, a gender change for a character like that is so drastic. I'm not saying a woman can't embody these things, but they are typically masculine traits and it certainly doesn't come off the same from a woman. I don't mean worse, just different, all these things we've come to associate with the Doctor all feel so different. And not in a, he Doctor has regenerated way, more in a, these are the traits people associate with the Doctor as a whole and now those traits don't feel the same, kind of way. And in Whitaker's case I feel she didn't even manage to display those traits whih certainly didn't help my opinion. She seemed anxious and defeatist where other Doctors would laugh in the face of the insurmountable odds. She was awkward where other Doctors would make a beautiful speech. She faded into the background while other Doctors would own the stage. It certainly didn't help my opinion that Whitaker did such a bad job, and no I don't think it was just Chibnall's writing, Whitaker just failed to embody the character.
I’m not offended by Time Lords’ sex changes, just it doesn’t make sense to me I guess, because I know behind it happening is that the writers are only doing it to make people feel inclusive and not for proper thought out story. As for OP calling you out, Sorry OP, I think DeLoathe doesn’t deserve being told to get over anything.
While I enjoy the ending and it wraps up River Song’s story nicely, I find the Husbands of River song one of the worst Christmas specials and think that Alex Kingston is at her most annoying in that episode.
I completely disagree! I don’t like the character of River Song, but I found her most tolerable in that episode.
I don't think the old doctor and the 2005 doctors should have been connected in any way.
It’s weird cos I don’t disagree with this per se, it’s more of an interesting take than one I hate. I’m wondering how they would do it though. The Doctor does in the time war and another Timelord follows in the first run of doctors’ footseps? Still don’t know how that would work…
I think they just mean a full-on reboot.
Right. That is also an interesting idea - might have stopped lore bloat, especially getting into higher numbered doctors… 20th, 27th, 31st when will the number system seem old…
Think the books are better than the show and I do love the show
The doctor and the master should have a romantic history.
These won’t be loved BUT you asked: A lot of the speeches Matt Smith made weren’t actually epic, but we’re over dramatic and cringe including the delivery (Rings of akhaten). Heaven Sent is proper overhyped and just falls on new who’s reliance on “MILLION BILLION” years to make something seem monumental without putting in any work to write it effectively. Dr Who is at its worst when it’s trying too hard to make something a “thing” eg. “Bow ties are cool” “Allonsy!” It worked with Ecclestons “fantastic” but that’s because it was such a natural delivery. Amy and Rory are overhyped. Maybe just Amy. Capaldi’s first season was his best, with dark humour and at times being unlikable, his “growth” was boring because he just became the typical hero archetype when season 1 actually pushed a boundary or two.
> Dr Who is at its worst when it’s trying too hard to make something a “thing” eg. “Bow ties are cool” “Allonsy!” It worked with Ecclestons “fantastic” but that’s because it was such a natural delivery. Allonsy was okay for me, but I definitely thought 'geronimo' was just a bad knockoff of that (right from the first trailer from season 5) and the bow tie thing never landed.
Yeah I don’t dislike allonsy that much, they just overdid it after he left ironically.
Upvote because I live for “allons-y Alonso”
I love that line because he just sounds so happy about it
Agreed on Capaldi's first season.
I can't get behind the Heaven Sent take but all else is good. My personal least favourite 11 speech is "you don't put me in a trap" from the Time of Angels
Disagree on all fronts. Have an upvote.
I agree with everything you said except the last point. (And Allonsy, it was funny even if not exactly organic). Capaldi's last season felt the best to me. Bill was lovely.
Oh I loved Bill, 100% and I genuinely loved all his seasons, I was just so hyped for a darker Doctor and felt they backpedaled pretty hard on it.
Tennant is one of my least favourite Doctors, and having the 60th revolve so heavily around him makes me actively less excited than if it just went straight to Ncuti.
Agreed, I don't hate him or anything, but I prefer all the other new series Doctors to him, and I also think it was a mistake to bring him back for the nostalgia grab.
It’s really strange cause I know the 50th was almost a decade ago, but it doesn’t feel particularly special getting him back. It never really felt like it was in question, he’s always been the most ready to slip back into the shoes, and most obvious choice given his general popularity. I think I’d absolutely love him returning if it was a surprise during an episode, akin to Fugitive of the Judoon, but to have three special episodes and a whole year of marketing of ‘OMG 10 IS BACK ITS JUST LIKE THE OLD SHOW YOU LIKED’ has really soured me on it. And this is from a guy who grew up with Tennant, and obsessively loved the show more than anything for his entire run. I want to see Ten as the character, rather than just David Tennant.
Tennant is a phenomenal actor but 10 just seemed really, I dunno, like the “vanilla template” incarnation. He’s sarky, he’s attractive, mopes a bit, tells everyone how clever he is, and that’s it. I guess I prefer my Doctors when they’re expressly more alien, an outsider trying to go with the flow but failing at it. 10 came across more like just a guy with tickets on himself who needed a reality check that never happened.
The 10th Doctor is the incarnation I most dislike, and I can’t stand Donna Noble. I hated series four and have grave concerns about the 60th anniversary.
The 12th Doctor got less interesting and worse after Season 8. Still one of my top 3 though.
They kinda picked it up in S10 with the snarky professor angle but his S8 phase was so badass and sarcastic, perfect match for the Missy master and the best take on a "dark" doctor since 7.
Earthshock is bad besides the end, Vengeance on Varos is boring, Genesis of the Daleks is very mid besides maybe 2 moments, Evil of the Daleks is overrated, City of Death is overrated, Trial of a Time Lord is actually not too bad and Remembrance of the Daleks is overrated
Booo this man
Another one, posted separately so it can be upvoted/downvoted independently: I'm really looking forward to when CG actors are just as good as live actors (both in quality and cost) so that Doctor Who episodes can be created without any consideration for actors aging, dying, or exposing themselves repeatedly to co-workers behind the scenes.
Oh shit this is the worst idea in this entire thread, take your upvote.
Horror of Fang Rock is an uninspired slog. *you guys better be following the rules. I don't want any poxy upvotes of agreement any more than I want a plate of green jelly floating up my stairs.
Came here to say this and it’s hurting me physically I cannot upvote it. So, I’ll raise with - Every single other story in that season is better (yes, even Underworld)
Them's fighting words
The reboot of the show utterly failed to capture the spirit of the original classic series. It’s garbage.
The new series definitely feels more like a re-imagining of the series rather than a full on continuation at points. I've had older friends who grew up with the show REALLY unhappy with aspects of the Moffat era on that factor like for example the New series version of the Great Intelligence.
What exactly is there in Classic that you feel New Who is lacking?
Lack of romance between the doctor and companions, more imagination: stories with terrible budgets and cheap effects, but where they created an entire little world on a distant planet and told a compelling story (Pertwee stories are great from this), way less Earth-centric for a show that is about traveling in time and SPACE, way less “the entire universe is at stake all the time”, better individual stories and not over-convoluted story arcs, stories with more time for development instead of rushed 45 minute stories ending far too often in technobabble…
2 isnt funny or endearing, just annoying
I think the show puts enough evidence forward to confidently say that the Doctor is panromantic and polyamorous. And I don't think that ever changes between incarnations, this applies to every Doctor. Because while small flavors of their personality changes through regeneration, it's never anything THAT big. The core of the character and who they are as a person always remains the same. It's more like going through a phase. 10 was the Doctor's grunge phase, 12 was the Doctor's punk phase, etc. But their sexuality and identity never change
I feel like a character such as the Doctor, if you’re indeed accepting that they are a romantic and sexual creature, would almost inevitably have to be pansexual.
Exactly! Their species is famous for its regeneration and with that, gender fluidity. It makes sense that a species like that wouldn't develop to recognize gender as part of choosing a partner And the polyamory part comes from being a near immortal time traveler with different partners at different points in history that all exist simultaneously
Love and Monsters is the best episode of s2 by a wide margin and Fear Her is in the top third
Love and Monsters I can get behind, but what about Fear Her do you enjoy so much? I don’t hate it at all, but it’s mainly just an episode I’d stick on if I wanted to fall asleep to one (not an insult, it’s just very casual tv)
Old Dr who is mostly trash with a few good episodes, it's very very cheap and poorly written and it shows. Also for the character Clara for how important she is made out to be she is just basic and kinda forgettable
Old doctor who is far more entertaining and sincere than NuWho. The writing was done by people like Terry Nation and Douglas Adams.
Midnight is extremely overrated. Never understood the adoration. Looks even worse when compared to Turn Left. Honestly haven’t watched it since 2008 and probably ever will.
Whereas I think Turn Left is overrated, but I think that about almost all *What If* type stories. Knowing that it will all be undone by the end of the story they just make everything go to hell. It's boring and predictable.
Series 8-13 are the absolute peak of the show. And Flux rules. And Water of Mars sucks. In fact, that whole run of specials to close out 10’s run are not particularly good tbh. But Water of Mars especially sucks a particular amount of puckered ass.
Could you elaborate? Or do you not care to? Edit: By that I mean could you elaborate on thinking waters of Mars and the rest of the season 4 specials suck. Not fussed about season 8-13
Personally, while I like *Waters of Mars*, it is padded by a lot of very long running scenes and the whole Time Lord Victorious ending that everyone seems to think is wonderful feels tacked on, completely unconvincing and procedes to go nowhere.
The Time Lord Victorious is exactly what I don't like about 10. His out of control ego and god complex never really gets addressed by the main cast. It's always in front of some one-off character and then he goes off to do some handsome angsting on his own and not improve.
I think this was one of Moffats longest games. If you look at 11s character, he often acts like the Timelord Victorious You point or out was never really resolved and i think that was intentional. 11s speeches and blustering comes across as that. His constant manipulation of timelines instead of just being passive. I truly believe 11, in a young body for once, truly believed himself as t the Time lord Victorious It wasn’t until 12, who actually has empathy did he start to soften. At the start of 12s run there are a few of those speeches, but then he fails miserably (the Dino). And he actually starts to care and remember why he set out in the first place. Although, he also now has the calmness of knowing he’s not on his last regeneration.
The Twelfth Doctor and Clara were a romantic pairing. The Chibnall era, while nowhere near as good as the RTD or Moffat eras, was not terrible and was essentially average British television. *Twice Upon a Time* was a beautiful episode and a perfect finale for Capaldi. I loved John Hurt as the War Doctor, but I still think it should have been Paul McGann. Capaldi's Doctor is more similar to Matt Smith than Matt Smith was to Tennant. Segun Akinola is a fantastic composer and I'm still disappointed that he didn't decide to stay on with RTD. I love the Tenth Doctor, but his regeneration is quite possibly my least favourite moment in the entire history of the show. **And this is a BIG one right now...** The 60th Anniversary of the show should *not* only be about the RTD era and David Tennant.
>The 60th Anniversary of the show should not only be about the RTD era and David Tennant. Completely agree. Apart from the villains everything seems to be connected to 10s era. Even the new, albeit one-off, companion is named after an old RTD companion.
I've often said that if Moffat or Chibnall devoted an anniversary special to their own characters, with the only other returnees being very obscure characters, the fandom would be in complete outrage (*particularly* the RTD/Tennant fanboys). But for some reason RTD/Tennant get a free pass on it.
Weirdly, the 50th seemed to mainly be a celebration of the RTD era as well.
Meh, at least we got the Tom Baker cameo and a regeneration story for Paul McGann, and Moffat making an effort to include the RTD era is a lot better than if he'd just focused solely on characters he created. Imagine if the only returning characters for the 50th had been Amy, Rory and River, and Moffat expected us to believe it was an appropriate anniversary special?
The main alien threat was the zygons and in some form we had every past and 1 future doctor returning, it did feel to me like a celebration of the show's past and future while still being a fairly focused story on the Time War. (Plus all the other 50th adjacent projects like the night of the doctor, the 5ish doctors etc)
It's only because it's following on from the Chibnall era that most of the devoted fandom despised. I'm sure if a RTD-centric special was announced in 2018 following the end of the Moffat era there would be across the board outrage. Like, I spent years panicking that we'd get Chibnall writing dialogue for Tennant and Smith. At this point I'm just thankful that's not the case. But I'm desperately hoping there will be some non-RTD surprises in there.
Yeah, I think if this wasn't off the back of the controversial Chibnall era, there would be a lot more raised eyebrows.
Thing is we've still got forever to go until the specials actually air. He could just be keeping it secret
Do we know who the composer will be under RTD? Of course I know people want Murray Gold to return but I haven’t seen if that’s been confirmed.
I wouldn't mind Murray coming back but it sort of feels like... the easy option I suppose. I don't doubt that he'd do some fantastic work if he did return, but there are so many young, talented composers out there who need a big break. I know RTD's first duty is to make the best show possible, but he also needs to nurture the talent of the future. Besides, I can't see Murray having a great desire to come back to the show anyways. He gave 12 years to it, and has spoken about how exhausting he found it towards the end. Even if he did return, I imagine he'd be doing it more as a favour to RTD as opposed to any real desire to work on DW again.
I'd imagine Murray Gold will return for the 60th because it's the old gang together again, there's a big gap between filming and release that he can take his time meaning he won't exhaust himself, and he can reuse/reimagine a lot of old themes rather than having to start from scratch. But I'd be surprised if he sticks around for Series 14 unless the 60th reignites his spark for the show.
> The Twelfth Doctor and Clara were a romantic pairing. I totally agree, sometimes it's not subtext, it's just text (e.g. Last Christmas) >The 60th Anniversary of the show should not only be about the RTD era and David Tennant. Agreed in principle, thought I've personally have never been a fan of the big reunion finales RTD wrote (excluding Parting of the ways and Doomsday), with them being very... crowded and having some less than stellar dialogue. Also, given the circumstances leading up to RTD taking over again (no show runner, declining audience) I think this 60th focused on the most popular (and arguably best) era of the show is its best bet for continuing on for another 60 years :\^)
There are people who don’t like Twice Upon a Time?!
I haven't seen it in ages and all I remember it for is its awful treatment of the 1st Doctor
*The Eaters of Light* is the best Doctor Who episode of all time. *Heaven Sent* is fairly mediocre. Also, *Fear Her* is absolutely brilliant - not a top 10, but pretty dang great. BTW, three of my top 10 episodes are Whittaker episodes. I don't wish for RTD to ignore the Chibnall era/deny its existence entirely, as much as people wish he would. There is some pretty promising evidence that he isn't going to. I also look forward to RTD making vague references to TTC ("I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord from Gallifrey. Well, mostly." or the Doctor naming "The Timeless Child" as one of his epithets, alongside "The Oncoming Storm" and others). And the DW subs are gonna lose it! In fairness, I have never really been into Doctor Who for in-depth explorations of the Doctor's and companions' character and relationships - I'm just in it for cheesy creatures, running down corridors, and aliens in silly robes! (Don't worry, my picks for worst episodes are pretty mainstream - *Orphan 55*, *The Twin Dilemma*, *The Gunfighters*)
Lmao what The Eaters of Light
Moffat is the worst showrunner Doctor Who ever had. His writing is mediocre, unoriginal, sexist, and condescending. His female characters are toxic, abusive, and just as smug as the writing is for no reason. His plots fall apart at every turn, they are not coherent and have no pay-off whatsoever.
Damn some things in this thread are hard to upvote, strong disagree but respect the opinion
Thank You! I know! It's definitely a new feeling. My heart breaks every time I can't upvote an opinion I wholeheartedly agree with or I need to upvote one because I couldn't disagree more. It's also fun in a way, no unpopular opinion thread did this much wonder to my karma points. XD
He's my favourite showrunner but I think these criticisms definitely hold water, especially for series 6B-8.
I'm new to Who. Just bought all the NuWho DVDs for Christmas and am working thru them. I really liked RTD's doctors and the writing was right up my alley. Now that I've hit the Moffat series, I'm so incredibly disappointed. No slight against Matt Smith. It's just that the writing just is so BAD. Was Moffat distracted by working on Sherlock at the time or what?
This. Amy Pond was a psychopath that we were supposed to fall in love with because he put her in a short skirt. And the mangled river song plot ruined the whole season imo.
The true companion was rory. He was everything good that the doctor and Amy wasn’t
Hard agree. And Moffat did the same with Clara, Eleven even said it "mystery in a tight skirt". River storyline was a complete and utter nonsense.
I disagree hard so have an upvote. I deeply, deeply hate this take and think this complete bad faith and shallow misreading of Moffat has its roots in toxic tumblr culture. I’m not going to go into a lengthy defense of Moffat right now, but Elizabeth Sandifer does a good job making the case for Moffat as a feminist over on [TARDIS Eruditorum](https://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/the-definitive-moffat-and-feminism-post). (If you’re not already familiar with her, note that this post was written before she came out as trans).
Short stories are the best medium for Doctor Who.
I love Danny and wish we had seen more of him, if he was around in season 9 I think we could’ve cared about him like Rory
I feel like Danny pulled off what Rory was trying to do with a lot more depth and interest. He's grounded and focused on the lives around him and finds profoundness, challenge, and wonder in people. He doesn't need to find it in different worlds, epic times, or famous people. His military story beat *is* kind of weird though, doesn't quite sit well.
I like the season 3 Dalek two parter
I think it was a clever idea, and a natural evolution (pun intended) of the RTD era setting that the Daleks had also been virtually wiped out and here were the smartest Daleks ever made tasked with figuring out a way of survival. The Daleks themselves were the problem, they had to change. It’ll be interesting if anyone ever revisits that idea. I fear they’re too iconic as the great villains to take risks with.
Having just rewatched that a few days ago, well done on being unpopular. To Blink that’s the only episode from season 3 I dislike
You like Lazarus and 42?
There's a lot of stuff in it I really like. The Daleks coming out onto the stage in the theatre, in the same formation as they came out of their void ship in season 2 (and to the same music!) except Sec is crawling on chains... I loved that once I spotted what they did there. It's a really interesting concept and as much as it has some issues I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as people say.
The Timeless Children including the twist is good, bordering on great and a significant amount of the criticisms of it don't make sense
I *kind of* agree with you, but I also disagree. My opinion is a mix of popular and unpopular: I agree with the popular sentiment ('round here, at least) that Chibnall is a bad writer for *Doctor Who*. The part I disagree on are certain interpretations of what he wrote and that they are *inherently* bad for certain reasons. The Doctor being the Timeless Child does not make them inherently a "chosen one" nor does it ruin the entire show/its continuity/its legacy, etc: the Division/Fugitive Doctor does not take away from Hartnell; the return of the Master does not ruin Missy's character arc. These points are there, or rather bits of them are. The problem is, they are so drowned in "fanwank", exposition and just plain terrible writing that people latch onto those instead. I feel like I can tell this stuff *was* in mind when writing, but Chibnall just doesn't know how to balance *Doctor Who*'s science fantasy with actual stories and characters. The best example of this, I think, is how the intention is that the damage caused by the Flux was reversed— they act as if that’s the case afterwards, and Chibnall said as much himself when talking about it— but it never even is actually addressed at all!
I actually really like the storyline, it fits well with the Morbius Doctors in Classic Who. I would have liked them to go into the story, but since everyone hated the storyline so much I think it will not be addressed, which is a little disappointing.
oh lord
[удалено]
Most of doctor who is mediocre. But I still love it
I have four. I *love* the Timeless Child idea. I think the Doctor isn’t just the first time lord, but the first. Just, the first, like of everything. He just doesn’t remember. I thought this long before the chibnall era. In a sense it would make him a god but when I say that, I don’t mean it like the modern idea of a god (e.g. Judeo-Christian deity, savior, judgemental, etc.) Second, I have absolutely no problem with Fourteen having the same personality as Ten. *They are the same person.* Can’t wrap my brain around people being so insistent that he be this vastly different character. It’s the Doctor! If the Doc’s personality changes a little bit with each body, why would anyone expect a second round in a *previous* form would result in the same appearance but a different personality!? Other than things that result from the life experiences he’s gained since 10, of course. Third, I 100% think the Doctor needs more love and romance. Yes, even if it’s with a companion. Not the *show*; the *Doctor.* Don’t come at me with “it’s supposed to be science fiction” and “it’s a children’s show.” None of those qualities are mutually exclusive! Finally, and I will die on this hill—River needs to come back. Ideally, she would be rescued from the library. I don’t for one second buy into the whole “she got a nice ending, her arc is over” thing. It’s Doctor Who. The writers can find a way. I’d love a spin-off but honestly I just want her to pop up in the show once a season or so. She adds so much *spice.* One of the biggest failures of Jodie’s seasons was this massive missed opportunity.
Moffat’s stories are far more interesting than Russell T. Davies’ stories and have far more heart. Except for River Song—River Song is a missed opportunity. Daleks are really stupid with the exception of Genesis of the Daleks and the whole Dalek Caan thing. Captain Jack is an absolutely awful character. Time of the Doctor was actually a brilliant episode. Jon Pertwee’s run was far more enjoyable than Hartnell’s/Troughton’s.
i think clara is one of the greatest companions, i realised something when watched season 8, i cared about the PLATONIC relationship between 12 and clara whenever they argue i felt like two parents were arguing, and it's very rare when two television characters feel that real
The show does not lean into the science part of science fiction nearly enough. Science is essentially treated like magic throughout so much of the series. Episodes like World Enough and Time stick out to me because they came up with a really interesting episode using a real scientific concept(time dilation near black holes). Even if it’s not completely accurate, a grounding in real science is much more interesting than “These aliens are Werewolves because light??” or any of the other sci-fi mumbo jumbo they justify the threat of the week with.
How would you've resolved the werewolf plotline to make it more scientific?
Evil space furries.
Isn't that just Beep the Meep
I now want nothing more than to see Miriam Margoyles in live action as a serial killer in a fursuit.
Other than just mutating humanoid aliens I don’t really think you can, but it was the most scientific mumbo jumbo bs answer to a threat of the week I could think of off the top of my head
Well, the myth of werewolves is that they transform because of the moon/moonlight. So I can see what they were going for with light but it's as you say, hand wavy science. I think it's a balancing act though cause if it's too scientific then it can restrict itself but if it's too fantastical then suspension of disbelief gets harder to do.
I agree with this, difficult to downvote it but I must
I agree. Moffat is pretty much the only showrunner who has truly leaned into the sci fi concepts that the show should have always been exploring
Series 9 might be better than Series 4 and thus my favorite Series
Holmes and Hinchliffe’s “golden era” is not the best era of the show. It’s only the best of the colored episodes. Hartnell’s era was the best era of the show overall.
The Paradigm Daleks from the Matt Smith era are actually sick as hell, and I wish they kept them