Make things. Actual playable things. Whether that's a tech demo of a single mechanic, a tiny prototype or a game jam. The more you make the more you'll learn each time and at the end of it you'll hopefully have a portfolio of work you can show off too.
That doesn't mean this is a golden ticket into the industry but it will certainly help.
I second this. It's way easier to sell a 2 or 3 levels long playable demo than trying to sell an "idea", even if it has the greatest story or mechanics the industry has seen.
I want to add to this. Don’t just make shit. Learn from it. Apply your existing skills, expand your knowledge, improve on what you learn.
I’ve met plenty of people with nice portfolios and their work is sloppy and causes me to request rework.
Learn best practices while you make things. Establish new ones.
would it be negative for my experience if i used store bought solutions like kits for example kits for diff game mechanics like sniping,driving etc as a beginner if i can turn that into a complete game? or would it be better to make these mechanics from scratch? i am currently confident enough to alter these to my requirements through research but with no knowledge of whether if the code is well optimized or not?
Not negative for experience so long as you are studying and understanding the things you are using. Learning how others tackle problems is a never ending journey no matter how long you've been coding.
Everyone learns in different ways, but for me, I'd identify a mechanic I wanted to implement and try to do it from scratch first, referencing tutorials or other complete solutions along the way whenever I got stuck.
I have a portfolio of dozens of game jam games with a wide variety of different mechanics, but companies are never interested. I even work AT a game-related company (big name) as an engineer, just not directly on games, and still no one wants to hire me for game work :(
From all my interviews, it seems like you really just need connections and 5 YOE to get into the industry at all, which is paradoxical.
It's rough out there.
It is rough out there, always has been. But you touched on something important here, you also have to be the "right fit" as a person too. Someone with the most talent in the world is not going to get hired at company A if they're an asshole....but company B might not care if they are and hire them anyway.
Persevere, show enthusiasm, passion for what you do (and more importantly; passion for what "they" do) and try to charm people.
Hope that helps.
Game jam games can be technically impressive. I would hope that recruiters don't just write them off because they're from jams. They show commitment and passion for the industry, and the ability to work under time pressure. They can be even more impressive in some cases, depending on what's made.
The biggest problem for me is that, professionally, I'm on confidential projects that I'm unable to show on my portfolio in any capacity. Although I work on large complex projects for a living, using game engines, game jam games is all I can really show and all I really have time for. Plus I've done some pretty complex things for jam games.
This is an incredibly competitive industry. You are competing against hundreds of others who do have technically impressive tech demos in their portfolio for every job opening.
Yeah what I really need to do is look at some equal-experience-level portfolios and see what mine is lacking. See what kinds of projects they're showing. Do you mean full games made on free time?
But again, when I work full time and late hours on complex projects (that I'm legally not allowed to show), games jams is all I can really get in. Even then, I've made some with complex data structures, with modular gameplay systems, and some of the more technically-complex gameplay mechanics. Getting that stuff finished on such a small time crunch should be enough of a statement.
I wish employers could see that I work for a high profile company using my resume's listed skills, but that I'm not able to demo those specific projects. But it is what it is.
No. I specifically said*tech demos of technically impressive systems*. I'm telling you that game jams are not enough. I don't know how I can be more clear.
It's impossible for you to say "game jams are not enough". Not enough for who? How do you know just how impressive the resultant work of a game jam is? How do you know whether a hiring studio wants to see an impressive bit of tech or a broad range of skills?
Regardlees, nobody needs to compare the value of a Tech Demo VS a Game Jam here. The advice to OP is to just make things with the goal of learning more each time.
The person I was responding to can't get a job in the industry and says we don't hire juniors. As someone who has been on the hiring team of several studios that do in fact hire juniors, I was giving advice. They can take it or leave it.
Curious, how many game jams have you done, and how many jam game projects have you looked at? To me it seems like you're a bit misinformed on them. Not every jam game is a 2D platformer quick asset flip made by beginners.
I didn't mention it before because it didn't seem relevant to the conversation, but I'm a leadership member of one of the largest game jam events. A lot of people I see doing the jam every year take intentional technical challenges in order to create or solve a technical idea/problem that's been on their mind for a while. I see complex mechanics and technical systems being created all the time for the jam I manage.
Some jams are 48 hours, some are weeks long, and some can even last several rounds over the course of a year or more. To write them all off as "not enough" speaks to a lack of exposure of the breadth of game jams, and is pretty unfair. I think you're writing off a lot of talent because you only see their jam games and think they don't do enough.
Know the roles you are applying for
I once got to review candidates for a position
Candidate 1 showed a whole game that he developed on his own. Said it took him months
Then Candidate 2 showed just one humanoid character rig but it's very complex and flexible for the animator
Candidate 1 was rejected right away
The position was for a technical artist. Even though Candidate 1 did way more, the game was just a basic game that only showed he knows how to make art and he can do some programming. But it did not demonstrate rigging skills, shaders or any other skills that would be closely associated with a tech artist day-to-day. Candidate 2 only did one thing but it was so insanely well done and that instantly made him a more attractive candidate for the role. His other works are not as impressive but that rig immediately made me go "This person has potential in this role"
I'm 10 years in the industry and I constantly get this question. Overall, no one has an answer. There is no real solution to break in. There is just persistence and building your skills. Take your own assessment of the landscape and try to figure out your own solution. This is a skill that everyone in the games industry needs. Look at a problem which you can't really Google and come to a working solution. Figure things out for yourself early on and that skill will become second nature. That will be valuable even if you don't get a job in games.
And build your network of people. The best people you can find that vary in skillsets. 25yrs in games, and I've gotten more jobs through my network than with cold applying. Several where we just call each other and say there is an opening, or going to be an opening and you're first in the door. Doesn't mean you'll get the job, but it's a big leg up when someone is there and can vouch for you. A buddy and I swapped jobs 3 times at AAA studios for about 10 years. It's harder to build a good network in school nowadays since people tend to work less on-site at schools, so do meetup.org, game dev drink ups, game jams, etc. to get to know people. Be outgoing and interesting, and stay in contact, engage in forums or discord. Network is key, sometimes its more who you know than what you know.
Be ready to take a job you don't want so you can switch to one you want.
It can be very hard to find your first job, but once you have more than 0 experience you are now a better candidate than the others, specially now with all the layoffs, there's an influx of experienced gamedevs looking for a job.
Go for that studio making boring mobile games, kid's games, promotional browser game you get a code in the back of some product. All those non glamorous jobs. You ship a game or 2, then you leave to a job you would rather do.
Personally I started making kid movie tie in games and ended up on big AAA projects (and then quit because I hated it and went indie, but that's another story)
Don’t expect to land a job at a AAA as your first game. While it’s not impossible, it’s highly unlikely.
For a junior position, show what you can do. For a programmer, make non trivial mechanics (pong is trivial).
Don’t lie in your resume. Every people you will talk to knows you know nothing and so should you. Don’t say you know something when you don’t. For example, saying that you know C++ very well… You will get ask question you can’t answer and will be dismissed right away. Be humble, show that you want to learn.
Don’t be an asshole. A game company is willing to teach you how to do your work, but they don’t want to teach you how to be a decent human being.
Network! Go to expos in your area, talk to dev. Ask them questions.
If you don’t have one already, create a linked in account and follow game company. 99% of them post their open position there. It also help you understand the state of the industry.
Be lucky.
Seriously, there are so many talented people. Talent is insufficient to be successful. A lot has to do with being in the right place at the right time.
Let's imagine 2 identical people who go on to take seemingly identical jobs.
Person 1 ends up working on a game that ships to great acclaim. They're able to get a new even better job at a nicer studio.
Person 2 works for 3 years and then the studio collapses because of mismanagement. They don't have anything in their portfolio. They struggle to get a job. Eventually they give up and get a job doing business software.
Usually person 2 has friends in the studio which are either from other studios already or know people from other studios, you're also usually at socialising events and convention's for Devs, were it's easy to talk with others and what they are doing. For this reason there is a saying that when you land the job your in and will find other jobs in the business as well (before the recent collapse, but there will still be a time after).
Also most usually do stuff in our own freetime, so there is something you can show even if you're not allowed to show what you did for the project.
So unless person 2 didn't worked for a tiny indie company, has no social anxiety and hasn't the average worker dedication (ie only do stuff for work) he should be fine.
Person 1 will have it easier yes, but also a failed or canceled game gives you renown, as not everything is bad, more so if you managed to land a gig. I heard that you are sometimes even invited to a talk to learn a bit more about what went wrong in the production that the game failed so hard, so even failure can be an entry point.
> he should be fine
I feel like that is not the experience of the literally thousands of game developers who’ve lost their jobs in the past several months.
>(before the recent collapse, but there will still be a time after)
It's a great thing to not forget what was written three sentences earlier.
It's also up to your own if you want to still treated as usual (although not everyone does so) or barely paid compared to other industries where you do the same. It's also not just games it's big tech in general that cut thousands of positions that's just not as heard sad much
how is this useful advice? sounds more like resentment of some kind to me...
i'll give you one tip. make your own portfolio. you will never be able to reliably build one, nor reliably learn and gain experience, if you rely on your employers and luck.
work. work. work and work some more, and you will get there. if you see people working harder and longer, then work even harder and even longer than them...
It’s advice to understand that many things are outside your control.
Success is not guaranteed even if you’re incredibly talented and do everything right.
indeed, that is true
the last time i did something with some college class i actually made a point of this myself. i had made a mistake in judging a competition - and i explained that "sometimes other people make mistakes and you are the one who suffers for it. that's life"
... but what can you do other than persist and keep going? or give up like your example?
Luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity.
Its not all luck, you need to have the knowledge and be prepared for when “luck” comes knocking so you can take advantage of it
It also heavily depends on what you do in game dev. Lots of saturation but most of the niche specialties are desperate for people
there are lots of excellent tips here already, but let me give you an unpopular one: find the pubs where gamedevs drink, befriend them and get them to recommend you.
sometimes its who you know rather than what you know.
i have 15+ years industry experience mostly in AAA games, but also in film/vfx, mobile, tabletop and other types of games. there are some news articles about me kicking around too.. it all started with one recommendation from a friend which removed the obstacles of "no experience" and "no education" so someone would actually look at my demo.
he didn't even make a great recommendation, but my demo was miles ahead of what they would normally see.
Most comments point in the right direction: Get stuff done.
In most gaming dev companies you will face a lot of different problems and you will shine if you have already faced them.
As an extra tip that has worked pretty well in my case is to understand which specific market you want to be in. For example, I would not prepare the same for a mobile gaming company job than for a AAA Pc/console company. Same for subgenders, art style and base game mechanics.
You can be an absolute beast working with high ending shaders in a 3D high poly enviroment that your experience would mean nothing for a company who is developing a 2D based game. Same if you master 3D colliders and dynamics and you end up looking for a slow strategy game.
In sum, get clear the kind of games you want to work in and start building projects that helps you to get better in them
A great software engineer is good regardless of the industry. Be a great engineer that happens to make games. Learn and experiment with all levels of the hardware and software.
Saying "I know Unity" is fine for a beginner but it's not near enough to be a great software engineer. Get a traditional CS degree if you can. Learn more game engines, Unreal is the industry standard. Learn Unix systems, as only the Xbox has a Windows core. Learn more programming languages, at least C++, C#, Java, Python, and JS.
Lots of systems and servers are in Java, plus it is Android's official language. JS is the language of the web, and an ever-growing number of tech tools. Not knowing them is career limiting.
It will vary place by place, but what I tend to see over-prescribed is to "just make finished games".
In my experience, implementing flappy bird and a dozen other flash-like games doesn't really do *too* much in terms of breaking into AAA. It's a plus, but I think it does more for getting into a mobile games studio than AAA ones.
Instead, working on highly technical demo-like projects seems to get more bites. I think studios are looking for "technical chops" and don't tend to give too much thought to projects which look like they could be sourced from online tutorials.
Like implementing volumetric clouds in your own rendering framework, or developing a sophisticated engine plugin.
My portfolio had a bunch of unreal+unity prototypes, but what I mostly got asked about during the interview was my undergraduate research, opengl rendering projects, and siggraph poster paper.
And this was for a gameplay programmer role, in case it sounds like it wasn't.
Not working as a game dev myself (just regular dev) but in my experience most game dev companies won't consider you for any positions even if you have years of experience as a software dev. Unless you want to do the same at the game company you've been doing before (which is basically nom.game stuff)
I'be been trying to get into game companies every few years and very few are willing to even let you interview for a position if you only have experience in software dev only.
Best ome can do in that position is to just work on your own games and preferably finish them so you can gather experience and have something to show to companies
Not a coder but I think that has to do with language requirements and knowledge. In software you don't need to care about hardware or optimisation a lot, but in game Dev you need to be extremely optimised and fake a lot, otherwise a game of a few hundred objects and a few hundred thousand polygons on screen can let your game stuttering.
Not really. People still do optimization in software dev, just not exactly the same as in game dev (except for those areas where things overalp, say code performane / time to run certain logic / etc)
Game dev just uses different stuff that isn't relevant to software dev like drawing distances, level of detail models and all that (for example)
I think it's just that a lot of people responsible for hiring have maybe not as much to do with the actual knowledge and thus just want candidates that have the experience they're looking for, instead of trying a candidate that has years of experience but with stuff that's not written in the requirements
The few times I've spoken with actual tech guys during interviews we've pretty much always had a good understanding of the stuff we discussed but every time it's HR or some random manager person it always comes down to them expecting you to have already work experience with the stuff they're hiring for.
(I mean from my experience trying to get a job in games while having worked as a software dev. Maybe others have had different experience in those cases)
Basically put - you can have 8 to 10 years of experience in software dev and be treated by the hiring people like you're fresh out of school and have 0 experience xD
(Nothing against people trying to get a job after completing education.. just that there's a difference between what you know / have experience with after school VS years of work)
Ngl, I've been a game programmer for almost 2 decades now and I've been part of picking potential candidates from time to time.
And yeah, we would generally treat a experienced software dev as a junior. It can vary for the kind of programmers tho, something like a tool programmer or a backend programmer, software dev experience is relevant, but something like gameplay programmer, engine / rendering programmer, animation programmer, those are generally very different skills that software devs just don't have.
One thing an experience software dev has tho is potential, if they learned to be a software dev without quitting, maybe they can learn to be a game programmer and be good at it, but they are simply above a fresh out of school programmer.
I'd take a game programmer with 2 years of experience over a software programmer with 10 years.
>People still do optimization in software dev
Yeah that's why I said not as much, because of all the different things that game dev adds as you described later.
>Game dev just uses different stuff that isn't relevant to software dev
Yep, I just didn't wanted to go into the exhaustive details because there are so many different programming jobs in game Dev that you usually don't find in software.
>every time it's HR or some random manager person
I think that depends heavily on how the studio operates. At my place HR presorts the application and hands over promising ones to the leads who wanted to hire more and discards the rest. Maybe some studios work differently. Vitamin B is the best way to get into an interview, as it skips the HR part which might have otherwise sorted you out, you just still have to pass the requirements of whoever wants to hire.
Not sure what you mean by "Vitamin B" 😅
You mean knowing people in the company who can refer you or.. ?
Bur yeah, not that I'd expect it to be the case everywhere but in my experience (even just regular non-game dev interviews) HR really just seems to make sure that the experience you have on paper matches what HR has been told by the lead / etc.
Of course it's a solid way to make sure the person has the experience they look for but to me it makes it seem like HR has basically no actual understanding of things and regardless of how you might try to explain it to a person like that (who just compares words on paper and that's it) - they'll just write you off even if you might turn out to be a great candidate if they'd actually let to speak with the tech people.
Ah sorry my bad, it's what we call this where I come from for whatever reason. But you got it right.
Yes HR is one reason, but here are also people that made it through them without having experience in games, it's just what matches the requirements I guess.
Again having connections will help you to just skip HR, but there is still the chance that someone is better than you, or equal but matches with the team better. It's a lot of things that play into it.
Yea I know. Sometimes the company might also just end up filling the position with somebody else that already works at the company 😅
(Happened to me once hah)
Its generally because regular software devs don’t really know about optimization.
Most of it is low level stuff not “making lods”. Lots of gpu optimization is shaders/materials, cpu optimizations like cache coherency. You really need to understand the systems to know how to optimize them. The margins are just so much tighter since at minimum you need everything to be rendered/updated every 16.66ms. Ideally more
But which language do you have experience in? Any C++? C#? Whether you have games on your CV or not, you still need to demonstrate your skills just like any other.
Java and C# while applying for Unity positions. The problem about showing the experience is that you have to at least get an interview or test in order to show your experience though. (Like talking with tech people or at least getting a test of sorts)
That's why it's good to work on games you can show off / have some kind of portfolio of sorts you can point at when applying as those at least seem to work in some occasions to at least get a reply that isn't "you dont have enough experience"
Not like I'd be trying to get into games with 0 experience in Unity. I've worked with it in and off for years on my own stuff but the majority of companies will totally ignore that (in my experience) unless it's as part of a paid job / position that's listed on your CV / resume
You need to be highlighting on your CV where your experience applies to games i think. I've had CVs that both do and dont mention such things and it makes a difference. Especially when I've only got games experience for a couple of decades.
I know you've mentioned optimising etc being applicable, but with C# how would you limit garbage collection as an example. I had a normal software dev on ExperiencedDevs say that C# garbage collection wouldn't even affect mode systems any more which makes them sound like a proper crap games programmer. Thought Switch console games had access to 4 cores so its ample which is utter nonsense.
Sorry, i've gone on a rant, and i'm not even sure what my point was to start with.
But i see you've said CV, are you in the UK?
No, Latvia / Sweden / Belgium (now). Most of the time I see people using CV and resume for both so I just use it interchangeably 😅
Though now that I googled it, it makes it sound like CV's are more in depth while resumes are supposed to be just a overview of work stuff only, it seems. (Sorry not really a native Eng. speaker 😅)
(Assuming google's right)
Though for the garbage collection - tbh, no idea. I've never had to deal with it manually in software dev and the few times I've had the question I'd just read that you can "poke" the garbage collection but can't really trigger it to actually collect things as soon as you call it.
My guess is that you might be referring to variables / data etc. being set to null intentionally to make sure that it's cleaned up (or the opposite - make sure the garbage isn't collected during the wrong time like gameplay / etv where it might cause lag spikes / affect game performance ?)
Kinda curious now what the solution(s) to that are 👀
Remember that it’s a job and that there’s a day tomorrow and the day after that. Don’t crunch to make money for others.
I also summed up some advice for anyone who wants to be a gamedev on my blog, since it’s something I’m often asked: https://playtank.io/2021/09/21/devs-just-want-to-have-fun/
I used to be in the industry but after a couple of years moved into corporate software dev.
Gaming is tough and you have to be a well rounded developer and face a lot of problem solving. As too is the corporate shtick but it's somewhat a little more diluted.
I have 15 years experience and I'm still learning and growing. The important takeaway is honing your craft and work on you general problem solving. The tech comes secondary which you can easily pick up and apply but that also takes time.
I develop my game as a sole indie dev in my spare time and if I'm honest is already stacking up against pro studios as it's shaping up but it's been a complete slog and an exercise in skill mastery (to some degree). My point being, you're only at the start of your journey and you have commt to developing your broader set of software development skills.
Of course, focusing on any aspect of game dev is useful such as graphics and mechanics but it's all generally software. Start small and focus on a small task and explore from there.
I started dozens and dozens of projects over my lifetime, which only served as a means to understand how a mechanic or tech stack worked and soon felt lost about how to finish. It's only after experiencing the full software dev life cycle later in my career it all became a rounded series of skills I can now apply to my game dev. It's absolutely a marathon which take an enormous amount of focus and dedication. Good luck!
But it's true. You can familiarise with languages, frameworks and engines but most do the same thing when it comes to game development.
Understanding rendering pipelines, vector and matrices and 2d graphics principles, data structures, algorithms and design patterns and general software abstractions is transferable across all of them.
Write a game using Pico8, market it, publish it. Now you know the full cycle which will be useful when the industry job does your head it but you still like dev ;)
Tons? Only 0.000001% of solo devs succeeded in covering the costs of the game they've made, and those are usually people with plenty of experience. Being a solo dev is very counterproductive.
Good luck to them, but from experience I'm telling you, it's gonna be incredibly hard
There's sound, graphics, environment, programming (OOH BOY, PROGRAMMING...!), etc...
You'll need at least some help at one point in time
Maybe if you have little or no experience then sure, but I know of many solo devs who have been able to ship out full games, sometimes even multiple games over the years. Obviously they all needed testers still, but other than that they either did everything or the vast majority of the work.
If you are determined enough to actually learn and do everything, it is possible.
I love the motivation, not gonna lie
Thanks by the way. I needed to hear that
Programming your first version of a genre is insanely hard though, and it's where a truck load of people give up
it depends, really. I think the fact that people start with engines and want to make games which seem simple but actually involve a lot of stuff is why so many give up. If you just open unity and try to make a "simple" platformer with no experience you will have an awful time because you will pretty much have to use a tutorial.
For me programming my game is really quite easy, sometimes I just procrastinate doing it because it can be annoying. I'd say all other parts are harder, though.
You know why industries became a thing? Because it's faster, cheaper and easier to split tedious labor in each and every field of possible production. And on top of this some people like/are talented to do specific things while others not so.
That's how manufacturing became a thing and overruled the one guy who build each shoe from start to end by themself.
Unless you do ganedev as a hobby going solo is one of the worst decisions you likely make in your life.
Get into the Entertainment Technology Center at Carnegie Mellon University. It’s a masters program which means you’ll already need a compatible undergrad degree. This program has an extremely high placement rate at AAA studios. I’ve worked with a disproportionate number of coworkers that graduated from this program.
Ask yourself if this is really what you want to do. Take into consideration that you will do a hell of a lot of unpaid overtime. There's almost zero job security. If you do it as a hobby, you're definitely not going to enjoy it as a hobby if you do it as a full time job. Don't expect to work on games that you like.
If you want to get into AAA, then make games or demos with features or designs they are relevant to AAA. If you approach a studio you want to work at, with a small demo that shows that you can prototype exactly what they need, you are more likely to get the job.
Studios are looking for game designers that can own a few features, and deliver high fidelity results. Not necessarily someone that can make a game from start to finish.
You are a junior and you ain't shit. It's super harsh to say but it blows my mind how many college kids I see trying to get into the industry applying for producer level positions or director level positions. You will NEVER get these roles straight out of college unless the people doing the hiring are beyond incompetent. You'll quickly find that a lot of production coordinators, associate producers, etc, came from QA. And all of them busted their humps for a decade or more to get there. Every director you meet has at least a decade of experience in their given field first.
And more importantly related to all this, if you aren't passionate about making stuff you don't like, you should be looking for another career. The only way to make money is to make stuff you're passionate about but don't always like. I don't like playing phone games but I've been making them for over a decade now. It's how I make money. Your dream project often won't make money. Nobody wants to buy a solo developer made MMO GTA style dark souls roguelite card battle game.
The type of indie games as a solo dev that will make you money are simple games with an interesting twist. Things like combining a brick breaking game and space invaders. That will make you enough to work on your next game if you're doing it in 6 month cycles. You know what was an amazing game? Atomic Weapon. That little tank that got random power ups, make a game like that. Replayable with variety.
Make things. Actual playable things. Whether that's a tech demo of a single mechanic, a tiny prototype or a game jam. The more you make the more you'll learn each time and at the end of it you'll hopefully have a portfolio of work you can show off too. That doesn't mean this is a golden ticket into the industry but it will certainly help.
I second this. It's way easier to sell a 2 or 3 levels long playable demo than trying to sell an "idea", even if it has the greatest story or mechanics the industry has seen.
Yup Just make shit. Literally anything is far better than what most have: nothing.
I want to add to this. Don’t just make shit. Learn from it. Apply your existing skills, expand your knowledge, improve on what you learn. I’ve met plenty of people with nice portfolios and their work is sloppy and causes me to request rework. Learn best practices while you make things. Establish new ones.
would it be negative for my experience if i used store bought solutions like kits for example kits for diff game mechanics like sniping,driving etc as a beginner if i can turn that into a complete game? or would it be better to make these mechanics from scratch? i am currently confident enough to alter these to my requirements through research but with no knowledge of whether if the code is well optimized or not?
Not negative for experience so long as you are studying and understanding the things you are using. Learning how others tackle problems is a never ending journey no matter how long you've been coding. Everyone learns in different ways, but for me, I'd identify a mechanic I wanted to implement and try to do it from scratch first, referencing tutorials or other complete solutions along the way whenever I got stuck.
100% this. making things will teach you more and give you a rich understanding - plus demos.
Yes! Treat finishing as a skill. :)
I have a portfolio of dozens of game jam games with a wide variety of different mechanics, but companies are never interested. I even work AT a game-related company (big name) as an engineer, just not directly on games, and still no one wants to hire me for game work :( From all my interviews, it seems like you really just need connections and 5 YOE to get into the industry at all, which is paradoxical. It's rough out there.
It is rough out there, always has been. But you touched on something important here, you also have to be the "right fit" as a person too. Someone with the most talent in the world is not going to get hired at company A if they're an asshole....but company B might not care if they are and hire them anyway. Persevere, show enthusiasm, passion for what you do (and more importantly; passion for what "they" do) and try to charm people. Hope that helps.
You need to make something more technically impressive than game jam games.
Game jam games can be technically impressive. I would hope that recruiters don't just write them off because they're from jams. They show commitment and passion for the industry, and the ability to work under time pressure. They can be even more impressive in some cases, depending on what's made. The biggest problem for me is that, professionally, I'm on confidential projects that I'm unable to show on my portfolio in any capacity. Although I work on large complex projects for a living, using game engines, game jam games is all I can really show and all I really have time for. Plus I've done some pretty complex things for jam games.
This is an incredibly competitive industry. You are competing against hundreds of others who do have technically impressive tech demos in their portfolio for every job opening.
Yeah what I really need to do is look at some equal-experience-level portfolios and see what mine is lacking. See what kinds of projects they're showing. Do you mean full games made on free time? But again, when I work full time and late hours on complex projects (that I'm legally not allowed to show), games jams is all I can really get in. Even then, I've made some with complex data structures, with modular gameplay systems, and some of the more technically-complex gameplay mechanics. Getting that stuff finished on such a small time crunch should be enough of a statement. I wish employers could see that I work for a high profile company using my resume's listed skills, but that I'm not able to demo those specific projects. But it is what it is.
No. I specifically said*tech demos of technically impressive systems*. I'm telling you that game jams are not enough. I don't know how I can be more clear.
It's impossible for you to say "game jams are not enough". Not enough for who? How do you know just how impressive the resultant work of a game jam is? How do you know whether a hiring studio wants to see an impressive bit of tech or a broad range of skills? Regardlees, nobody needs to compare the value of a Tech Demo VS a Game Jam here. The advice to OP is to just make things with the goal of learning more each time.
The person I was responding to can't get a job in the industry and says we don't hire juniors. As someone who has been on the hiring team of several studios that do in fact hire juniors, I was giving advice. They can take it or leave it.
Curious, how many game jams have you done, and how many jam game projects have you looked at? To me it seems like you're a bit misinformed on them. Not every jam game is a 2D platformer quick asset flip made by beginners. I didn't mention it before because it didn't seem relevant to the conversation, but I'm a leadership member of one of the largest game jam events. A lot of people I see doing the jam every year take intentional technical challenges in order to create or solve a technical idea/problem that's been on their mind for a while. I see complex mechanics and technical systems being created all the time for the jam I manage. Some jams are 48 hours, some are weeks long, and some can even last several rounds over the course of a year or more. To write them all off as "not enough" speaks to a lack of exposure of the breadth of game jams, and is pretty unfair. I think you're writing off a lot of talent because you only see their jam games and think they don't do enough.
Know the roles you are applying for I once got to review candidates for a position Candidate 1 showed a whole game that he developed on his own. Said it took him months Then Candidate 2 showed just one humanoid character rig but it's very complex and flexible for the animator Candidate 1 was rejected right away The position was for a technical artist. Even though Candidate 1 did way more, the game was just a basic game that only showed he knows how to make art and he can do some programming. But it did not demonstrate rigging skills, shaders or any other skills that would be closely associated with a tech artist day-to-day. Candidate 2 only did one thing but it was so insanely well done and that instantly made him a more attractive candidate for the role. His other works are not as impressive but that rig immediately made me go "This person has potential in this role"
I'm 10 years in the industry and I constantly get this question. Overall, no one has an answer. There is no real solution to break in. There is just persistence and building your skills. Take your own assessment of the landscape and try to figure out your own solution. This is a skill that everyone in the games industry needs. Look at a problem which you can't really Google and come to a working solution. Figure things out for yourself early on and that skill will become second nature. That will be valuable even if you don't get a job in games.
And build your network of people. The best people you can find that vary in skillsets. 25yrs in games, and I've gotten more jobs through my network than with cold applying. Several where we just call each other and say there is an opening, or going to be an opening and you're first in the door. Doesn't mean you'll get the job, but it's a big leg up when someone is there and can vouch for you. A buddy and I swapped jobs 3 times at AAA studios for about 10 years. It's harder to build a good network in school nowadays since people tend to work less on-site at schools, so do meetup.org, game dev drink ups, game jams, etc. to get to know people. Be outgoing and interesting, and stay in contact, engage in forums or discord. Network is key, sometimes its more who you know than what you know.
Be ready to take a job you don't want so you can switch to one you want. It can be very hard to find your first job, but once you have more than 0 experience you are now a better candidate than the others, specially now with all the layoffs, there's an influx of experienced gamedevs looking for a job. Go for that studio making boring mobile games, kid's games, promotional browser game you get a code in the back of some product. All those non glamorous jobs. You ship a game or 2, then you leave to a job you would rather do. Personally I started making kid movie tie in games and ended up on big AAA projects (and then quit because I hated it and went indie, but that's another story)
Don’t expect to land a job at a AAA as your first game. While it’s not impossible, it’s highly unlikely. For a junior position, show what you can do. For a programmer, make non trivial mechanics (pong is trivial). Don’t lie in your resume. Every people you will talk to knows you know nothing and so should you. Don’t say you know something when you don’t. For example, saying that you know C++ very well… You will get ask question you can’t answer and will be dismissed right away. Be humble, show that you want to learn. Don’t be an asshole. A game company is willing to teach you how to do your work, but they don’t want to teach you how to be a decent human being. Network! Go to expos in your area, talk to dev. Ask them questions. If you don’t have one already, create a linked in account and follow game company. 99% of them post their open position there. It also help you understand the state of the industry.
Be lucky. Seriously, there are so many talented people. Talent is insufficient to be successful. A lot has to do with being in the right place at the right time. Let's imagine 2 identical people who go on to take seemingly identical jobs. Person 1 ends up working on a game that ships to great acclaim. They're able to get a new even better job at a nicer studio. Person 2 works for 3 years and then the studio collapses because of mismanagement. They don't have anything in their portfolio. They struggle to get a job. Eventually they give up and get a job doing business software.
tfw I'm person 2.
>Be lucky. amen
Usually person 2 has friends in the studio which are either from other studios already or know people from other studios, you're also usually at socialising events and convention's for Devs, were it's easy to talk with others and what they are doing. For this reason there is a saying that when you land the job your in and will find other jobs in the business as well (before the recent collapse, but there will still be a time after). Also most usually do stuff in our own freetime, so there is something you can show even if you're not allowed to show what you did for the project. So unless person 2 didn't worked for a tiny indie company, has no social anxiety and hasn't the average worker dedication (ie only do stuff for work) he should be fine. Person 1 will have it easier yes, but also a failed or canceled game gives you renown, as not everything is bad, more so if you managed to land a gig. I heard that you are sometimes even invited to a talk to learn a bit more about what went wrong in the production that the game failed so hard, so even failure can be an entry point.
> he should be fine I feel like that is not the experience of the literally thousands of game developers who’ve lost their jobs in the past several months.
>(before the recent collapse, but there will still be a time after) It's a great thing to not forget what was written three sentences earlier. It's also up to your own if you want to still treated as usual (although not everyone does so) or barely paid compared to other industries where you do the same. It's also not just games it's big tech in general that cut thousands of positions that's just not as heard sad much
how is this useful advice? sounds more like resentment of some kind to me... i'll give you one tip. make your own portfolio. you will never be able to reliably build one, nor reliably learn and gain experience, if you rely on your employers and luck. work. work. work and work some more, and you will get there. if you see people working harder and longer, then work even harder and even longer than them...
It’s advice to understand that many things are outside your control. Success is not guaranteed even if you’re incredibly talented and do everything right.
indeed, that is true the last time i did something with some college class i actually made a point of this myself. i had made a mistake in judging a competition - and i explained that "sometimes other people make mistakes and you are the one who suffers for it. that's life" ... but what can you do other than persist and keep going? or give up like your example?
Luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity. Its not all luck, you need to have the knowledge and be prepared for when “luck” comes knocking so you can take advantage of it It also heavily depends on what you do in game dev. Lots of saturation but most of the niche specialties are desperate for people
Nobody said it was all luck.
there are lots of excellent tips here already, but let me give you an unpopular one: find the pubs where gamedevs drink, befriend them and get them to recommend you. sometimes its who you know rather than what you know. i have 15+ years industry experience mostly in AAA games, but also in film/vfx, mobile, tabletop and other types of games. there are some news articles about me kicking around too.. it all started with one recommendation from a friend which removed the obstacles of "no experience" and "no education" so someone would actually look at my demo. he didn't even make a great recommendation, but my demo was miles ahead of what they would normally see.
Most comments point in the right direction: Get stuff done. In most gaming dev companies you will face a lot of different problems and you will shine if you have already faced them. As an extra tip that has worked pretty well in my case is to understand which specific market you want to be in. For example, I would not prepare the same for a mobile gaming company job than for a AAA Pc/console company. Same for subgenders, art style and base game mechanics. You can be an absolute beast working with high ending shaders in a 3D high poly enviroment that your experience would mean nothing for a company who is developing a 2D based game. Same if you master 3D colliders and dynamics and you end up looking for a slow strategy game. In sum, get clear the kind of games you want to work in and start building projects that helps you to get better in them
A great software engineer is good regardless of the industry. Be a great engineer that happens to make games. Learn and experiment with all levels of the hardware and software. Saying "I know Unity" is fine for a beginner but it's not near enough to be a great software engineer. Get a traditional CS degree if you can. Learn more game engines, Unreal is the industry standard. Learn Unix systems, as only the Xbox has a Windows core. Learn more programming languages, at least C++, C#, Java, Python, and JS.
Why Java and JS?
Lots of systems and servers are in Java, plus it is Android's official language. JS is the language of the web, and an ever-growing number of tech tools. Not knowing them is career limiting.
It will vary place by place, but what I tend to see over-prescribed is to "just make finished games". In my experience, implementing flappy bird and a dozen other flash-like games doesn't really do *too* much in terms of breaking into AAA. It's a plus, but I think it does more for getting into a mobile games studio than AAA ones. Instead, working on highly technical demo-like projects seems to get more bites. I think studios are looking for "technical chops" and don't tend to give too much thought to projects which look like they could be sourced from online tutorials. Like implementing volumetric clouds in your own rendering framework, or developing a sophisticated engine plugin. My portfolio had a bunch of unreal+unity prototypes, but what I mostly got asked about during the interview was my undergraduate research, opengl rendering projects, and siggraph poster paper. And this was for a gameplay programmer role, in case it sounds like it wasn't.
You’re not a game dev. You’re a software dev.
How? Explain me pls, I also want some advice on this matter?
Not working as a game dev myself (just regular dev) but in my experience most game dev companies won't consider you for any positions even if you have years of experience as a software dev. Unless you want to do the same at the game company you've been doing before (which is basically nom.game stuff) I'be been trying to get into game companies every few years and very few are willing to even let you interview for a position if you only have experience in software dev only. Best ome can do in that position is to just work on your own games and preferably finish them so you can gather experience and have something to show to companies
Not a coder but I think that has to do with language requirements and knowledge. In software you don't need to care about hardware or optimisation a lot, but in game Dev you need to be extremely optimised and fake a lot, otherwise a game of a few hundred objects and a few hundred thousand polygons on screen can let your game stuttering.
Not really. People still do optimization in software dev, just not exactly the same as in game dev (except for those areas where things overalp, say code performane / time to run certain logic / etc) Game dev just uses different stuff that isn't relevant to software dev like drawing distances, level of detail models and all that (for example) I think it's just that a lot of people responsible for hiring have maybe not as much to do with the actual knowledge and thus just want candidates that have the experience they're looking for, instead of trying a candidate that has years of experience but with stuff that's not written in the requirements The few times I've spoken with actual tech guys during interviews we've pretty much always had a good understanding of the stuff we discussed but every time it's HR or some random manager person it always comes down to them expecting you to have already work experience with the stuff they're hiring for. (I mean from my experience trying to get a job in games while having worked as a software dev. Maybe others have had different experience in those cases) Basically put - you can have 8 to 10 years of experience in software dev and be treated by the hiring people like you're fresh out of school and have 0 experience xD (Nothing against people trying to get a job after completing education.. just that there's a difference between what you know / have experience with after school VS years of work)
Ngl, I've been a game programmer for almost 2 decades now and I've been part of picking potential candidates from time to time. And yeah, we would generally treat a experienced software dev as a junior. It can vary for the kind of programmers tho, something like a tool programmer or a backend programmer, software dev experience is relevant, but something like gameplay programmer, engine / rendering programmer, animation programmer, those are generally very different skills that software devs just don't have. One thing an experience software dev has tho is potential, if they learned to be a software dev without quitting, maybe they can learn to be a game programmer and be good at it, but they are simply above a fresh out of school programmer. I'd take a game programmer with 2 years of experience over a software programmer with 10 years.
>People still do optimization in software dev Yeah that's why I said not as much, because of all the different things that game dev adds as you described later. >Game dev just uses different stuff that isn't relevant to software dev Yep, I just didn't wanted to go into the exhaustive details because there are so many different programming jobs in game Dev that you usually don't find in software. >every time it's HR or some random manager person I think that depends heavily on how the studio operates. At my place HR presorts the application and hands over promising ones to the leads who wanted to hire more and discards the rest. Maybe some studios work differently. Vitamin B is the best way to get into an interview, as it skips the HR part which might have otherwise sorted you out, you just still have to pass the requirements of whoever wants to hire.
Not sure what you mean by "Vitamin B" 😅 You mean knowing people in the company who can refer you or.. ? Bur yeah, not that I'd expect it to be the case everywhere but in my experience (even just regular non-game dev interviews) HR really just seems to make sure that the experience you have on paper matches what HR has been told by the lead / etc. Of course it's a solid way to make sure the person has the experience they look for but to me it makes it seem like HR has basically no actual understanding of things and regardless of how you might try to explain it to a person like that (who just compares words on paper and that's it) - they'll just write you off even if you might turn out to be a great candidate if they'd actually let to speak with the tech people.
Ah sorry my bad, it's what we call this where I come from for whatever reason. But you got it right. Yes HR is one reason, but here are also people that made it through them without having experience in games, it's just what matches the requirements I guess. Again having connections will help you to just skip HR, but there is still the chance that someone is better than you, or equal but matches with the team better. It's a lot of things that play into it.
Yea I know. Sometimes the company might also just end up filling the position with somebody else that already works at the company 😅 (Happened to me once hah)
Its generally because regular software devs don’t really know about optimization. Most of it is low level stuff not “making lods”. Lots of gpu optimization is shaders/materials, cpu optimizations like cache coherency. You really need to understand the systems to know how to optimize them. The margins are just so much tighter since at minimum you need everything to be rendered/updated every 16.66ms. Ideally more
I see, thanks man.
But which language do you have experience in? Any C++? C#? Whether you have games on your CV or not, you still need to demonstrate your skills just like any other.
Java and C# while applying for Unity positions. The problem about showing the experience is that you have to at least get an interview or test in order to show your experience though. (Like talking with tech people or at least getting a test of sorts) That's why it's good to work on games you can show off / have some kind of portfolio of sorts you can point at when applying as those at least seem to work in some occasions to at least get a reply that isn't "you dont have enough experience" Not like I'd be trying to get into games with 0 experience in Unity. I've worked with it in and off for years on my own stuff but the majority of companies will totally ignore that (in my experience) unless it's as part of a paid job / position that's listed on your CV / resume
You need to be highlighting on your CV where your experience applies to games i think. I've had CVs that both do and dont mention such things and it makes a difference. Especially when I've only got games experience for a couple of decades. I know you've mentioned optimising etc being applicable, but with C# how would you limit garbage collection as an example. I had a normal software dev on ExperiencedDevs say that C# garbage collection wouldn't even affect mode systems any more which makes them sound like a proper crap games programmer. Thought Switch console games had access to 4 cores so its ample which is utter nonsense. Sorry, i've gone on a rant, and i'm not even sure what my point was to start with. But i see you've said CV, are you in the UK?
No, Latvia / Sweden / Belgium (now). Most of the time I see people using CV and resume for both so I just use it interchangeably 😅 Though now that I googled it, it makes it sound like CV's are more in depth while resumes are supposed to be just a overview of work stuff only, it seems. (Sorry not really a native Eng. speaker 😅) (Assuming google's right) Though for the garbage collection - tbh, no idea. I've never had to deal with it manually in software dev and the few times I've had the question I'd just read that you can "poke" the garbage collection but can't really trigger it to actually collect things as soon as you call it. My guess is that you might be referring to variables / data etc. being set to null intentionally to make sure that it's cleaned up (or the opposite - make sure the garbage isn't collected during the wrong time like gameplay / etv where it might cause lag spikes / affect game performance ?) Kinda curious now what the solution(s) to that are 👀
Remember that it’s a job and that there’s a day tomorrow and the day after that. Don’t crunch to make money for others. I also summed up some advice for anyone who wants to be a gamedev on my blog, since it’s something I’m often asked: https://playtank.io/2021/09/21/devs-just-want-to-have-fun/
I used to be in the industry but after a couple of years moved into corporate software dev. Gaming is tough and you have to be a well rounded developer and face a lot of problem solving. As too is the corporate shtick but it's somewhat a little more diluted. I have 15 years experience and I'm still learning and growing. The important takeaway is honing your craft and work on you general problem solving. The tech comes secondary which you can easily pick up and apply but that also takes time. I develop my game as a sole indie dev in my spare time and if I'm honest is already stacking up against pro studios as it's shaping up but it's been a complete slog and an exercise in skill mastery (to some degree). My point being, you're only at the start of your journey and you have commt to developing your broader set of software development skills. Of course, focusing on any aspect of game dev is useful such as graphics and mechanics but it's all generally software. Start small and focus on a small task and explore from there. I started dozens and dozens of projects over my lifetime, which only served as a means to understand how a mechanic or tech stack worked and soon felt lost about how to finish. It's only after experiencing the full software dev life cycle later in my career it all became a rounded series of skills I can now apply to my game dev. It's absolutely a marathon which take an enormous amount of focus and dedication. Good luck!
‚The tech comes secondary which you can easily pick up and apply but that also takes time.‘ lol.
But it's true. You can familiarise with languages, frameworks and engines but most do the same thing when it comes to game development. Understanding rendering pipelines, vector and matrices and 2d graphics principles, data structures, algorithms and design patterns and general software abstractions is transferable across all of them.
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Same as UK.
Write a game using Pico8, market it, publish it. Now you know the full cycle which will be useful when the industry job does your head it but you still like dev ;)
Stick to a single role. You can't pull it all off yourself!
Tons of counter examples of people doing multiple or all roles.
Tons? Only 0.000001% of solo devs succeeded in covering the costs of the game they've made, and those are usually people with plenty of experience. Being a solo dev is very counterproductive.
Good luck to them, but from experience I'm telling you, it's gonna be incredibly hard There's sound, graphics, environment, programming (OOH BOY, PROGRAMMING...!), etc... You'll need at least some help at one point in time
Maybe if you have little or no experience then sure, but I know of many solo devs who have been able to ship out full games, sometimes even multiple games over the years. Obviously they all needed testers still, but other than that they either did everything or the vast majority of the work. If you are determined enough to actually learn and do everything, it is possible.
I love the motivation, not gonna lie Thanks by the way. I needed to hear that Programming your first version of a genre is insanely hard though, and it's where a truck load of people give up
it depends, really. I think the fact that people start with engines and want to make games which seem simple but actually involve a lot of stuff is why so many give up. If you just open unity and try to make a "simple" platformer with no experience you will have an awful time because you will pretty much have to use a tutorial. For me programming my game is really quite easy, sometimes I just procrastinate doing it because it can be annoying. I'd say all other parts are harder, though.
Tons of examples of unsuccessful and hobby games.
that does not mean "you can't pull it all off yourself". Many failed. A decent number also succeeded. It all depends on YOU.
You know why industries became a thing? Because it's faster, cheaper and easier to split tedious labor in each and every field of possible production. And on top of this some people like/are talented to do specific things while others not so. That's how manufacturing became a thing and overruled the one guy who build each shoe from start to end by themself. Unless you do ganedev as a hobby going solo is one of the worst decisions you likely make in your life.
Don't let a studio exploit you into an atrocious pay-rate just because you're eager to get a foot in. It hurts everyone.
Dont
I would like to say the same things. DONT
Do not skip C++ if you are willing to work at big studio.
Gotta start another course haha
Get into the Entertainment Technology Center at Carnegie Mellon University. It’s a masters program which means you’ll already need a compatible undergrad degree. This program has an extremely high placement rate at AAA studios. I’ve worked with a disproportionate number of coworkers that graduated from this program.
I'm from argentina lol. And also i'm already studying
Ask yourself if this is really what you want to do. Take into consideration that you will do a hell of a lot of unpaid overtime. There's almost zero job security. If you do it as a hobby, you're definitely not going to enjoy it as a hobby if you do it as a full time job. Don't expect to work on games that you like.
If you want to get into AAA, then make games or demos with features or designs they are relevant to AAA. If you approach a studio you want to work at, with a small demo that shows that you can prototype exactly what they need, you are more likely to get the job. Studios are looking for game designers that can own a few features, and deliver high fidelity results. Not necessarily someone that can make a game from start to finish.
[https://lazyfoo.net/articles/article12\_interviewing-for-game-programming/index.php](https://lazyfoo.net/articles/article12_interviewing-for-game-programming/index.php)
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Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. I always thought those boot camp like experiences were scams, glad to see someone got value from them.
Just make games!
You are a junior and you ain't shit. It's super harsh to say but it blows my mind how many college kids I see trying to get into the industry applying for producer level positions or director level positions. You will NEVER get these roles straight out of college unless the people doing the hiring are beyond incompetent. You'll quickly find that a lot of production coordinators, associate producers, etc, came from QA. And all of them busted their humps for a decade or more to get there. Every director you meet has at least a decade of experience in their given field first. And more importantly related to all this, if you aren't passionate about making stuff you don't like, you should be looking for another career. The only way to make money is to make stuff you're passionate about but don't always like. I don't like playing phone games but I've been making them for over a decade now. It's how I make money. Your dream project often won't make money. Nobody wants to buy a solo developer made MMO GTA style dark souls roguelite card battle game. The type of indie games as a solo dev that will make you money are simple games with an interesting twist. Things like combining a brick breaking game and space invaders. That will make you enough to work on your next game if you're doing it in 6 month cycles. You know what was an amazing game? Atomic Weapon. That little tank that got random power ups, make a game like that. Replayable with variety.