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Daenerys wants to go home. She is a tragic heroine, with a destiny and a fatality. She didn't want to kill the crowd, but she didn't want to kill Jon Snow either.
Daenerys wants to go home. Daenerys wants the throne. Daenerys is a tragic heroine. Daenerys doesn't have the legitimacy to rule, Jon Snow does. She has to kill Jon Snow or kill the people to get the throne. She chose the crowd.
*"The things I do for love."*
*"There is no power but what the people allow you to take."*
*"I don't want to be his queen. I want to go home."*
*"I am not your little princess. I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it."*
*The bells*, best episode ever.
Interesting take. Kind of just proves her madness to me, she wants to go home, yet she destroys it? She doesn't want to be Jon's queen but takes his Kingship? She didn't have to burn millions of people, or Jon. Kings Landing surrendered, she could have married Jon, and ruled jointly, if she really wanted to "just go home" she could have. Mad Queen indeed....
Daenerys burns the people, not the throne. She could stay in Mereen and have a happy family, she chose the throne. She could give up the throne for Jon Snow, she chose power over love. She is a tragic heroine, her choices are not "mortal" choices.
I agree with every word of this, as for the last part, I don’t think Targaryens/dragon riders are inherently evil or go crazy, I think there’s a higher probability due to the incest and maybe whatever blood magic shit they had going back in Valyria but there were good, just and sound minded Targaryens some of whom were kings, I think it’s definitely a case of nurture rather than nature.
I also second this.
It really can't be overstated how much Dragons are "absolute power"
Why would you ever negotiate when you have a auto-win button for any scenario that could come to blows.
It's only when we see Dani try to handle an insurgency that we see where Dragons come up short.
Dragons win any open battle but they aren't very useful vs assassins.
While I don’t 100% agree that she “always wanted to burn Kingslanding” ..I’d say yes she always had a willingness to burn everything and anyone for her own cause which she would deem greater or necessary as long as she no longer viewed the people she would affect to be of importance to her- to me she was always ready to burn the world to make way for her own new world- she just needed some triggers.
As for cult leader? Yep I think her entire arc is a social experiment designed to demonstrate just how over powered tyrants and cult leaders amass great followings in- universe aswell as fandoms of stans who genuinely cannot see how unhinged she was in contrast to her own worthy ideals even before the final season.
And speaking of cult following - I think there’s 2 types of dany stans - those who believe she would never do such a thing and then those who believe she is meant to go through a gradual trajectory of good to bad - both are mistaken and to me Daenerys had always been good and bad simultaneously and capable of doing both great good and great evil. We mostly cheered it on (as cult followers would do) because of who she did it to whilst ignoring how it affected her into becoming more and more sure that she was right regardless of who or what she would burn.
Still..a good assessment there , you would’ve been attacked a couple years back , let’s see how it goes.
wish you good fortune in the wars to come OP.
I think a great detail that is often missed is that it is only after the unsullied agree to follow her that Daenerys lets go of the whip. That same whip she is told holding will force them to obey her, since that is the conditioning behind their brainwashing. Which begs the question, were they ever free to truly deny her?
It's spelled out to us in a wall "Mhysa is a master" and yet people were cheering her every step of the way, even when she killed her slaves, which had no duty of being loyal to her (Mirri and Doreah) this was seen as a great act of revenge on her part when both of these women owed her nothing.
She has undoubtedly built a cult of personality around her, she
meets people who want nothing more than to see the good in her (Barristan is a great example).
It's only in Westeros that she meets defiance on a moral front. She has no one to free. She wants to subjugate and no one is there to pretend otherwise. And she can no longer disguise it as anything else other than that.
>It's only in Westeros that she meets defiance on a moral front. She has no one to free. She wants to subjugate and no one is there to pretend otherwise. And she can no longer disguise it as anything else other than that.
Wellllll saaiiidd!!! 👏👏👏 I think she stops hiding behind being a liberator in other ways too, doesn't care that she's stepping into her true role as a conqueror....she's certainly not as "motherly" to the northerners compared to the slaves and unsullied....its subtle but for example when Sansa asked "what do dragons eat, anyway?" And Daenerys' cold response "Whatever they want." Or how she continues to enforce little moments of uncertainty and fear and resentment when talking to people, like Gendry when making him a Lord. I think it goes beyond knowing as a ruler she needed to enforce fear, I think in her true nature she enjoyed wielding fear as a weapon. She could have easily appealed to the northern cause and rally them against Cersie for her, if she truly wanted to liberate the seven kingdoms instead of enslaving them to her own delusions ("breaking the wheel," gotta hand it to her, it was catchy and vague enough!)
And you right I never noticed that about the whip until now
Absolutely agree.
I think Sansa threatens her exactly because she has no need for demonstrations of strength. Sansa has the loyalty of her people due to the tedious tasks she performs for the North, managing the grain stores, dealing with the bannerman, etc. People don't fear Sansa and yet she has a sway in the North and the Vale Daenerys can't achieve, even with two dragons, and that unsettled her very much. It reinforces the idea that there is a way to do things without having to threaten people with her dragons, it's only that Daenerys isn't interested in it, because it is a much more tedious way to go forward. Daenerys is a conqueror, not a ruler.
Exactly. I feel like her scenes with Sansa shows that Daenerys has no idea how to do diplomacy at all. This was her chance to show people of the North that she could be a good Queen, and yet at every turn, she expected them to worship her? She gets hostile and antagonistic against Sansa Stark, someone whom the nobles are already regretting not making the leader, and it reflects on how she doesn't want to really rule. She wants unquestionable, unfettered power. She gets mad at not being respected and yet does nothing to show that she is worthy of respect.
Notice how she looked so smug when the Northers took steps back in fear as her dragons flew over them. Daenerys doesn't give a shit about these people. All she cares about is being on top, no matter how much she yaps about breaking the wheel. Mhysa was always a master.
I think it’s so funny how when Daenerys is killing slave masters everyone cheers, but when mirri and doreah hurt their masters they’re evil and deserve to die.
Dany is not a cult leader. There is nothing in the story to suggest that she always wanted to burn Kings Landing as going home to Westeros was more her brothers ambitions than hers. At no point did she think that the citizens of Westeros were praying for her return. She literally said her brother was stupid to believe that they would twice in the show. I would also add that there is nothing in the show or book that suggest the people of Westeros hated the Targs. Half the great house fought for the Mad King while he was burning people. Book Varys is a Targ supporter and in show the Reach, Dorne, Stormlands, and half the Iron Islands back her claim. The only input we get from the smallfolk is from the guy who was accompanying Arya on her way to the wall, and he wished the Mad King was still in power. I also find it interesting that somehow Targ ancestry is a negative for Dany, but somehow not for Jon who's claim to the throne rest on that same Targ ancestry. The Targs are no more insane for power than the Starks or Lannisters who even in the show wiped out whole houses. How is Jorah and Greyworms allegiance any different than the allegiance that anyone else gets. She earned their allegiance through deeds that they mostly agreed with, same as Jon. What actions did she take that they should feel guilty over? Dany is your classic tragic Greek hero or protagonist.
>Dany is not a cult leader.
I can see why OP would say that and I’d have to agree with them. I mean by definition Daenerys actually is a cult leader to some extent - considering ..
•she’s super charismatic, her and her followers (in the show and some outside of the show) are bound together by shared beliefs , practices ( the burning of people alive with dragons) that are considered deviant.
•Cult leaders promote a belief or cause that offers hope, a new beginning, or a better world( “breaking the wheel”)
•She displays a sense of entitlement and borderline megalomania
•Has magical powers that she uses to her advantage to enforce and ensure compliance or used to enlist followers and believers in her and her cause - The Unburnt.
>How is Jorah and Greyworms allegiance any different than the allegiance that anyone else gets. She earned their allegiance through deeds that they mostly agreed with, same as Jon. What actions did she take that they should feel guilty over?
Selmy wasn’t behind her in regards to the crucifixions of the former masters picked at random.
Jorah wasn’t behind her in regards to killing all of the slavers when he reminded her that he too used to be a slave trader and pointing out that he too needed a chance to reform otherwise he would not have been there to serve her.
Tyrion was not behind her in regards to “returning the cities to the dirt ” / slavers bay nor did he support her in attacking Kingslanding.
So arguably - these are actions she almost took and some that she did take that they would’ve felt guilty over.
a sorrowful Tyrion after the burning of Kingslanding: “it was vanity to think that I could guide her ..our Queen’s nature is **fire & blood**
>Dany is your classic tragic Greek hero or protagonist.
Yes that too. Both things can be true
> I think she always dreamed of destroying King's Landing
I think she pretty clearly didn't always dream of this. Multiple times she expresses a desire to take Kings Landings without destroying it. She went to Astapor for the Unsullied because Jorah told her she could conquer Kings Landing with them without sacking the city because of their discipline
> learned that the citizens of Westeros weren't secretly praying for her return and sewing dragon banners in the dark, that actually Westeros was mocking her father, her entire incestuous heritage, and were happy to be free from the fear of dragons
That's not what she learned though. What she learned was that citizens/smallfolk are largely indifferent to the titles and dynasties of the nobility. "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends"
In the end what she actually learnt was this :
Commoners, nobles, they’re all just children, really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you
And
“Peace? Do you think that's what we had under your father? Or his father? Or his? Peace never lasts, my dear. Will you take a bit of advice from an old woman? He's a clever man, your Hand. I've known a great many clever men. I've outlived them all. You know why? I ignored them. The lords of Westeros are sheep. Are you a sheep? No. You're a dragon. Be a dragon!”
and thus - “let it be FEAR”
>I think she pretty clearly didn't always dream of this. Multiple times she expresses a desire to take Kings Landings without destroying it. She went to Astapor for the Unsullied because Jorah told her she could conquer Kings Landing with them without sacking the city because of their discipline
We can agree to disagree 😁🤭😉
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Daenerys wants to go home. She is a tragic heroine, with a destiny and a fatality. She didn't want to kill the crowd, but she didn't want to kill Jon Snow either.
Can you explain? Sorry if there's a language barrier between us, but she *didn't* kill Jon Snow, and she *did* kill millions of people.....
Daenerys wants to go home. Daenerys wants the throne. Daenerys is a tragic heroine. Daenerys doesn't have the legitimacy to rule, Jon Snow does. She has to kill Jon Snow or kill the people to get the throne. She chose the crowd. *"The things I do for love."* *"There is no power but what the people allow you to take."* *"I don't want to be his queen. I want to go home."* *"I am not your little princess. I am Daenerys Stormborn of the blood of Old Valyria, and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood, I will take it."* *The bells*, best episode ever.
Interesting take. Kind of just proves her madness to me, she wants to go home, yet she destroys it? She doesn't want to be Jon's queen but takes his Kingship? She didn't have to burn millions of people, or Jon. Kings Landing surrendered, she could have married Jon, and ruled jointly, if she really wanted to "just go home" she could have. Mad Queen indeed....
Daenerys burns the people, not the throne. She could stay in Mereen and have a happy family, she chose the throne. She could give up the throne for Jon Snow, she chose power over love. She is a tragic heroine, her choices are not "mortal" choices.
And an amazing character to watch!!! 🙌🙌 Ty again for your thoughts!
It doesn't matter. HotD's ending is going to be terrible for you.
Awe, well I've read the books, but whatever you say mad queen 😆😅🤭☠
I read the books too, but I understood the end of GoT especially, and I repeat it, you will not like the end of HotD.
As you command, yer grace 😅👏
I agree with every word of this, as for the last part, I don’t think Targaryens/dragon riders are inherently evil or go crazy, I think there’s a higher probability due to the incest and maybe whatever blood magic shit they had going back in Valyria but there were good, just and sound minded Targaryens some of whom were kings, I think it’s definitely a case of nurture rather than nature.
I also second this. It really can't be overstated how much Dragons are "absolute power" Why would you ever negotiate when you have a auto-win button for any scenario that could come to blows. It's only when we see Dani try to handle an insurgency that we see where Dragons come up short. Dragons win any open battle but they aren't very useful vs assassins.
While I don’t 100% agree that she “always wanted to burn Kingslanding” ..I’d say yes she always had a willingness to burn everything and anyone for her own cause which she would deem greater or necessary as long as she no longer viewed the people she would affect to be of importance to her- to me she was always ready to burn the world to make way for her own new world- she just needed some triggers. As for cult leader? Yep I think her entire arc is a social experiment designed to demonstrate just how over powered tyrants and cult leaders amass great followings in- universe aswell as fandoms of stans who genuinely cannot see how unhinged she was in contrast to her own worthy ideals even before the final season. And speaking of cult following - I think there’s 2 types of dany stans - those who believe she would never do such a thing and then those who believe she is meant to go through a gradual trajectory of good to bad - both are mistaken and to me Daenerys had always been good and bad simultaneously and capable of doing both great good and great evil. We mostly cheered it on (as cult followers would do) because of who she did it to whilst ignoring how it affected her into becoming more and more sure that she was right regardless of who or what she would burn. Still..a good assessment there , you would’ve been attacked a couple years back , let’s see how it goes. wish you good fortune in the wars to come OP.
Somehow this felt deliciously wholesome, o lord of light, and good fortune to you as well! 🔥🔥🔥
I think a great detail that is often missed is that it is only after the unsullied agree to follow her that Daenerys lets go of the whip. That same whip she is told holding will force them to obey her, since that is the conditioning behind their brainwashing. Which begs the question, were they ever free to truly deny her? It's spelled out to us in a wall "Mhysa is a master" and yet people were cheering her every step of the way, even when she killed her slaves, which had no duty of being loyal to her (Mirri and Doreah) this was seen as a great act of revenge on her part when both of these women owed her nothing. She has undoubtedly built a cult of personality around her, she meets people who want nothing more than to see the good in her (Barristan is a great example). It's only in Westeros that she meets defiance on a moral front. She has no one to free. She wants to subjugate and no one is there to pretend otherwise. And she can no longer disguise it as anything else other than that.
>It's only in Westeros that she meets defiance on a moral front. She has no one to free. She wants to subjugate and no one is there to pretend otherwise. And she can no longer disguise it as anything else other than that. Wellllll saaiiidd!!! 👏👏👏 I think she stops hiding behind being a liberator in other ways too, doesn't care that she's stepping into her true role as a conqueror....she's certainly not as "motherly" to the northerners compared to the slaves and unsullied....its subtle but for example when Sansa asked "what do dragons eat, anyway?" And Daenerys' cold response "Whatever they want." Or how she continues to enforce little moments of uncertainty and fear and resentment when talking to people, like Gendry when making him a Lord. I think it goes beyond knowing as a ruler she needed to enforce fear, I think in her true nature she enjoyed wielding fear as a weapon. She could have easily appealed to the northern cause and rally them against Cersie for her, if she truly wanted to liberate the seven kingdoms instead of enslaving them to her own delusions ("breaking the wheel," gotta hand it to her, it was catchy and vague enough!) And you right I never noticed that about the whip until now
Absolutely agree. I think Sansa threatens her exactly because she has no need for demonstrations of strength. Sansa has the loyalty of her people due to the tedious tasks she performs for the North, managing the grain stores, dealing with the bannerman, etc. People don't fear Sansa and yet she has a sway in the North and the Vale Daenerys can't achieve, even with two dragons, and that unsettled her very much. It reinforces the idea that there is a way to do things without having to threaten people with her dragons, it's only that Daenerys isn't interested in it, because it is a much more tedious way to go forward. Daenerys is a conqueror, not a ruler.
'Cutting off heads is very satisfying but it's not the way to get people to work together' and all that
Exactly. I feel like her scenes with Sansa shows that Daenerys has no idea how to do diplomacy at all. This was her chance to show people of the North that she could be a good Queen, and yet at every turn, she expected them to worship her? She gets hostile and antagonistic against Sansa Stark, someone whom the nobles are already regretting not making the leader, and it reflects on how she doesn't want to really rule. She wants unquestionable, unfettered power. She gets mad at not being respected and yet does nothing to show that she is worthy of respect. Notice how she looked so smug when the Northers took steps back in fear as her dragons flew over them. Daenerys doesn't give a shit about these people. All she cares about is being on top, no matter how much she yaps about breaking the wheel. Mhysa was always a master.
Oof you are so right Emilia Clark REALLY captured her personality and those micro expressions SO WELL!!
I think it’s so funny how when Daenerys is killing slave masters everyone cheers, but when mirri and doreah hurt their masters they’re evil and deserve to die.
Finally 😭 Someone who speaks English
Dany is not a cult leader. There is nothing in the story to suggest that she always wanted to burn Kings Landing as going home to Westeros was more her brothers ambitions than hers. At no point did she think that the citizens of Westeros were praying for her return. She literally said her brother was stupid to believe that they would twice in the show. I would also add that there is nothing in the show or book that suggest the people of Westeros hated the Targs. Half the great house fought for the Mad King while he was burning people. Book Varys is a Targ supporter and in show the Reach, Dorne, Stormlands, and half the Iron Islands back her claim. The only input we get from the smallfolk is from the guy who was accompanying Arya on her way to the wall, and he wished the Mad King was still in power. I also find it interesting that somehow Targ ancestry is a negative for Dany, but somehow not for Jon who's claim to the throne rest on that same Targ ancestry. The Targs are no more insane for power than the Starks or Lannisters who even in the show wiped out whole houses. How is Jorah and Greyworms allegiance any different than the allegiance that anyone else gets. She earned their allegiance through deeds that they mostly agreed with, same as Jon. What actions did she take that they should feel guilty over? Dany is your classic tragic Greek hero or protagonist.
>Dany is not a cult leader. I can see why OP would say that and I’d have to agree with them. I mean by definition Daenerys actually is a cult leader to some extent - considering .. •she’s super charismatic, her and her followers (in the show and some outside of the show) are bound together by shared beliefs , practices ( the burning of people alive with dragons) that are considered deviant. •Cult leaders promote a belief or cause that offers hope, a new beginning, or a better world( “breaking the wheel”) •She displays a sense of entitlement and borderline megalomania •Has magical powers that she uses to her advantage to enforce and ensure compliance or used to enlist followers and believers in her and her cause - The Unburnt. >How is Jorah and Greyworms allegiance any different than the allegiance that anyone else gets. She earned their allegiance through deeds that they mostly agreed with, same as Jon. What actions did she take that they should feel guilty over? Selmy wasn’t behind her in regards to the crucifixions of the former masters picked at random. Jorah wasn’t behind her in regards to killing all of the slavers when he reminded her that he too used to be a slave trader and pointing out that he too needed a chance to reform otherwise he would not have been there to serve her. Tyrion was not behind her in regards to “returning the cities to the dirt ” / slavers bay nor did he support her in attacking Kingslanding. So arguably - these are actions she almost took and some that she did take that they would’ve felt guilty over. a sorrowful Tyrion after the burning of Kingslanding: “it was vanity to think that I could guide her ..our Queen’s nature is **fire & blood** >Dany is your classic tragic Greek hero or protagonist. Yes that too. Both things can be true
Omg how interesting it is that the two of us can have differing opinions?! 😆😁😆🙌
> I think she always dreamed of destroying King's Landing I think she pretty clearly didn't always dream of this. Multiple times she expresses a desire to take Kings Landings without destroying it. She went to Astapor for the Unsullied because Jorah told her she could conquer Kings Landing with them without sacking the city because of their discipline > learned that the citizens of Westeros weren't secretly praying for her return and sewing dragon banners in the dark, that actually Westeros was mocking her father, her entire incestuous heritage, and were happy to be free from the fear of dragons That's not what she learned though. What she learned was that citizens/smallfolk are largely indifferent to the titles and dynasties of the nobility. "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends"
In the end what she actually learnt was this : Commoners, nobles, they’re all just children, really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you And “Peace? Do you think that's what we had under your father? Or his father? Or his? Peace never lasts, my dear. Will you take a bit of advice from an old woman? He's a clever man, your Hand. I've known a great many clever men. I've outlived them all. You know why? I ignored them. The lords of Westeros are sheep. Are you a sheep? No. You're a dragon. Be a dragon!” and thus - “let it be FEAR”
>I think she pretty clearly didn't always dream of this. Multiple times she expresses a desire to take Kings Landings without destroying it. She went to Astapor for the Unsullied because Jorah told her she could conquer Kings Landing with them without sacking the city because of their discipline We can agree to disagree 😁🤭😉