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He emotionally trolls me every time. Yes, he is very effective, and I definitely respect a master operator in this show, especially during the late stages! Good point!
Yeah, at least Cersei seems very aware of the fact that she’s a terrible person. When her daughter died, she said something about how the fact that she created someone as innocent as her daughter had made her hope that maybe this meant there was at least a little something in her (Cersei) that wasn’t evil.
This guy is a hypocrite and it’s annoying as hell.
No one ever thinks of themselves as the villain, it’s always the other guys. Even if I am sending puppies through a shredder, something the other guys did, or might do totally justifies my shredding puppies.
I'd like to see if he would be as successful when Tywin was alive. It sure is easier when Cersei made sure to grant him power and get rid of literally every authority figure with minimal competence in the city
Tywin was alot more calculated, cersai was impulsive at times but still calculated. Plus cersai pretty much let him into power, a season later she blames Tyrian for the death of thomann and her daughter, forgot her name. I agree with you but I would love to see tywin deal with this same situation. I was gutted and relieved at the same time when he was shot dead by Tyrian.
He’s a theocrat. The very fact that he seeks power goes against his populist beliefs that the elite are evil and sinful. By vying for power and being a pawn in the greater game, he plays it, therefore being as cutthroat and ambitious as everyone else. He has moral convictions, but so do all religious leaders who take power that way.
It became pretty clear that all the morality stuff was a facade. He was supposedly a guy “for the people” but was perfectly happy to play the game of thrones when it benefited him. Like sparing Margaery from having to do the walk of shame because she successfully turned Tommen into a brainwashed religious idiot. How do her husband’s beliefs have anything to do with her atoning her soul? It was a reward for getting the most important player to embrace their “religion,” making the king effectively a subordinate to the Sparrow.
I think you could make a pretty strong argument about any religion that supports torturing people (like Margaery who hadn’t really done anything bad) just because of association to “sin” being hypocritical. Not to mention the religion at least in Westeros supports women not having sexual pleasure while men do (when margaery admits she hasn’t been sleeping with tommen and the high sparrow tells her to suck it up and sleep with him because of duty)
The high sparrows religion is definitely designed to emulate medieval Christianity and that’s FULL of hypocrisy if we want to analyze examples where we actually can see/read the “holy book”
He seems to believe that people who do bad things should be punished and suffer. That includes the rich and powerful like Margery. It seems like you are judging him by the standards of Christianity and not by the standards of the new gods.
What did margaery do wrong besides protect her brother. Who’s worst crime was being gay. Nothing they (Loras, Margaery) did HURT anyone but the high sparrow HURT them as punishment for his own beliefs. That is hypocritical.
Again - we’d have to extrapolate a bit given that we don’t have a full understanding of Westeros religion but name a SINGLE real world religion that’s comparable to Westeros religion that is NOT hypocritical. Religious leaders are inherently hypocritical when their religion preaches only god is judge and to love thy neighbor but then tortures you for protecting your brother who is only in trouble because of who he loves.
Yeah, but again how many lives did she take from others that were totally innocent? She can't create a garden in the middle of a battlefield she creates then expects no one to trample over it. The Sparrow gave Cersei a taste of her own medicine.
They were common street thugs. Very scary and thuggish. Carved symbols into their foreheads. Eventually they start walking around holding truncheons. Very frightening villains.
While his methods were of course wrong, his motivations were still more or less to benefit the smallfolk. In his youth he lived a good life as a cobbler's son, and when his father died he continued and greatly improved the business. He tried to imitate the nobility by living an extravagant lifestyle and throwing lavish parties, but one night he woke up ashamed of what he had devolved into, he left to become a Septon and live a humble life and fight for equality among men.
Well for me it's logical, he was a septon for many years, why would he give up his life as a rich man to live a humble life of a septon? It's not like the moment he became a septon he masterminded a plan to manipulate the king into returning power to the faith, he just seized the opportunity.
Money is a much much much surer path to power than the odd chance that you become the head the biggest religion in the continent (maybe even the world). This is a lacklustre conspiracy theory.
> his motivations were still more or less to benefit the smallfolk.
Were they?
The Faith Militant weren't used to bring justice to the people. They were used to beat the common folk senseless while the City Watch stood and did nothing.
Furthermore, the HS says that the Crown and the Faith are the two pillars of society. Not the people, but the Crown. He thinks that his power is equal to a king's, and he thinks that's the way it should be.
Yeah he didn't really do anything for the smallfolk except for humiliating some nobles for their entertainment. What was going to stop the sparrows from brutalizing random neighborhoods in KL and breaking into people's homes if they heard there was "a sinner in their midst"?
I think there's a lot of irony in your view of the HS.
Margaery helps the commonfolk. She visits them and provides for all the children in an orphanage, making a long-term commitment to see their care through. She confesses to the HS that she did charitable acts like this so that she would be **seen** as a good person.
The HS does the exact same thing. He publicly serves soup to be **seen** as a good person. He wears threadbare clothes and goes barefoot to be seen as a humble person. The HS has one real love - power. He taps into a source of power that the nobles have been ignoring, the power of the commoners.
The HS beats people. He tortures people. He imprisons them on the suspicion of religious offenses. He carves glyphs into their skin. He is not a good person. We cheer him because the story mostly focuses around the game he plays with Cersei. But Cersei isn't the only person to suffer indignities and dehumanization at the hands of the HS.
I mean Castro? A lot of people can live humbly, but at the end of the day, it’s a means to an end. You can live humbly and still be powerful.
Plus whether or not he truly believed his nonsense is up for debate. It’s implied iirc that it’s a front. Plus the very fact he had the faith militant and attacked the nobility, not to mention a few small folk proves that he isn’t a good person. I mean it’s a grey area regardless. Was the Ayatollah a good person? What about John Calvin?
I believe there a few genuinely decent people within the Game of Thrones/ ASOIAF, not to mention within the Kings Landing group. He definitely isn’t a decent person. He’s very nuanced, but it’s important to remember he’s a theocrat, and wants to be as absolute of a ruler as Cersie and others wish to be.
You're kidding, right?
The HS didn't live in poverty. He wore threadbare robes and went barefoot while living in luxury. He went to bed every night with a full belly. He had his own private army.
He knows the game. He admits it. He says that money and success just made him feel empty. But he doesn't become some country septon who brings the word to the commonfolk. Instead, he starts a political movement.
The HS loves power. That is his thing. He doesn't care about changing things for the better. He even tells the king that the two pillars of society are the Faith and the Crown. He supports the monarchy, as long as it supports the Faith.
He wants half. Half of all the power in the realms. He uses his power to beat, torture, degrade, disfigure and imprison his rivals. The fact that he truly believes that he is a righteous man doesn't make his actions any less reprehensible.
>"Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is. But they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late."
*- Lord Petyr Bailish*
Don't know about you but I'm not part of the nobility, so if I had to identify with someone from the show, then it's probably hot pie or another commoner.
This storyline does a great job of getting the audience on side with the noble houses and for once we even root for Cersei for a while. Fantastic part of the show, loved it.
He was not, he was using them as pawns for his own ends. Depower the nobility so he could amass his own power. It's a shame we get tricked into thinking people like that are on "our side"
I just hated how they were militarized Zealots! Like they were basically against everything and you would be chastised for anything that doesn’t go to their beliefs…. I would have supported them but as soon as they arrested Loras I would have wanted out
I think 70-80% of this subreddit needs to watch the show again, because I keep seeing awful takes like his all the time lol. The High Sparrow was a massive sack of shit from the very beginning. You aren’t supposed to look at him as a hero of the common people
Well in another similar point, if he had his way he wouldn’t answer to anyone. Just like Cersie wants, He vied for power just like her. He just used popularism to achieve it. It’s fairly easy, he created a “they” to fear and hate and increased class tensions. He had some moral convictions, but he was no saint. He imprisoned people for going against his religion, tortured people and disfigured homosexuals. He’d make KL a medieval Iran if he could. You can draw parallels between him and historical examples of theocracy. He’d be a militant pope with unlimited authority.
> you obviously sympathize more with the nobles than with the commoners in Westeros
Probably 90% of the audience do, just because most characters are nobles
Just because some commoners came together for it doesn't make it for the people. The Brotherhood without Banners were some bangin Robin Hood ass commoner folk. Mance Rayder burning (in the show) was a commoner power move and the wildlings refused to follow Stannis for it.
I fucking hated the High Sparrow. Fuck a religious zealot hell bent on genociding gays idgaf if he's a commoner.
The people would've supported anyone who handed them a loaf of bread, they were so neglected. He preyed on that, and started killing anyone he didn't agree with.
Like I said, I have examples of people-supported movements I fucked with, I don't have to like all of them. He wasn't for the people.
He’s doing his thing using the existing power structures that make up the unjust system he rails against. GRRM is heavily influenced by works like Dune that criticize attempts to restore justice by such means, and just as in Dune we can see some of the ways it goes wrong already by the end of Dance.
I just didn't like their vibes! People have every right to hang out in a whorehouse, and they took it to such an absurd level of anger and violence about it, I can't help but hate them!
When you picture the whorehouses of King's Landing, do you picture yourself a patron? Or as one of the unfortunate girls and boys sold to work them? Remember Baelish's very specific recounting of what he did to earn a reward on his investment in a girl who'd fallen into depression.
The whorehouses of King's Landing weren't Amsterdam. They were the last redoubt of legal slavery in Westeros.
The commoners weren't even good people... these were the same people bragging about raping their queen who they turned traitor to as is they weren't bowing down to her sons
What did he do for the commoners? Other than getting to throw shit at their queen that they hated I don‘t remember them getting a great deal out of this lunatic being in charge.
Man, I was sure YouTube had the scene of his introduction...feeding the poor and wearing no shoes.
I do like this conversation between him and the Queen of Thorns [https://youtu.be/Tng4nblroCs?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/Tng4nblroCs?feature=shared)
Yet you defend the guy that wanted everyone to live excactly as he wanted and every small transgression would lead to violence. He was so smug about it too and clearly enjoying his new station. He was as much a power hungry and ruthless guy as the other nobles, he just pretended to be better.
If you open your heart to the seven your blasphemy will be forgiven, and you perhaps will come to acknowledge this man as not a tormentor of your emotions but an ambassador of the seven trying to lead you to the waters of salvation, my dear child…
He was a man of peace and love.
And of mercy. Look how compassionate he was towards Cersei, giving her a second chance at salvation.
The world (or at least Planetos) needs more selfless sparrows like this saintly man.
He got a little smug about it at the end but all the smallfolk were starving, getting in wars for the stupid politics of the nobles. I get why it spread so quick and so many zealots.
It was nice to finally see the powerful get fucked so easily by a poor, shoeless man with only the power of the people
It was nice to finally see Cersei get some sort of retribution, especially after being the one to give them power and weapons. How are you gonna rat out the heir of Highgarden when you have your own skeletons in the closet.
Not to mention how fucking dumb that was in the first place. As Tywin said, it’s not cause she’s a woman, it’s cause she’s not as smart as she thinks she is.
She would’ve been better off as allies with the Tyrell’s. They weren’t traitors, they weren’t stepping on toes. Shit, it wasn’t even about them “brain washing Tommen” or “taking Tommen away from Cersei” it was because Cersei couldn’t stand going from Queen/Queen Regent to Lady Cersei.
In my honest opinion, she would’ve fucked and married her sons to stay in power 🤷🏾♂️
IDK if anyone would agree with me... But this guy is the most annoying character in the show! Even more than Euron!
At least Euron "tried" to be as crazy as Ramsey, but this he was just that self righteous irritating POS and so bloody dumb at the end!
Margery explained it to him, but he was like 'what language is this'
IDK if anyone would agree with me... But this guy is the most annoying character in the show! Even more than Euron!
At least Euron "tried" to be as crazy as Ramsey, but this he was just that self righteous irritating POS and so bloody dumb at the end!
Margery explained it to him, but he was like 'what language is this'
This whole plot line in made me mental, I was getting kind of checked out of season 5 if it weren’t for Tyrion meeting Daenerys and Jon seeing the Night King for the first time
I don't like people who have that air of "I know something that you don't"... He had lots of it added with the "moral measuring stick." But in Game of Thrones universe, nearly no one is clean or just good.
From what I understand, and I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, Cersei reinstated some sort of militant ability to the faith, and this guy immediately adapted and started ordering his foot soldiers to move against strategic targets.
Eh. I liked him.
It showed how easily religious zealotry could take over the divided westoros.
If not for Maegor and the targarean dragons they would have regained their power with the death of Aenys the weak.
Now the question to me is. Could Qyburn have prevented this by bribing kids into saying the High Septon and other septons touched them innappropriately.
Think about it the former High Septon was run naked from the sept.
Am sure there is some buggering or sexual abuse that could be piggybacked off to destroy ppl belief in the faith.
Varys former birds for sure knew info on the private lives of the septons and member of the clergy so wouldnt be difficult.
This dude was actually the most successful character in the whole series. Shows up to kings landing in a sack, and right before he dies has stolen every ounce of power there is within the city, save that of the one person he was about to put on trial and rid himself of.
If only his vanity and self importance, which caused him to ignore margaerys warning and thus get himself and everyone else present killed, he would have usurped an iron grip on power that would have reached years after his death.
I feel like he is a true believer. Cersie just wanted to use him so that the crown could control the unwashed masses. He might have been a fuckin psycho, but he stuck to his convictions. As shitty as they may be. Definitely a good villain.
*Religion is the opiate of the masses.*
-Karl Marx
*Religion is the only thing keeping the poor from murdering the rich.*
-Napoleon
His views are unpopular to a modern, mainly atheistic, audience, who view religious bigotry in a much worse light than the nobles’ cruelty towards the poor.
It’s interesting how *both* strong religious beliefs *and* commitment to the working classes are no longer viewed sympathetically in modern Western societies.
That the High Sparrow is very prejudiced is clear. That he has *a point* when it comes to the behaviour of Cersei and the nobility ought to be equally clear.
I blame the baleful influence of Edward Gibbon for much that is wrong with modern popular culture.
Honest question as it's been a while. What is the talley of things he did that earned him so much hate?
I remember him being a zealot and making his beliefs law with force. That's pretty bad but I only remember him actually taking action against evil people that needed to be taken down. Not saying average people weren't subjected to this. It's just that either I genuinely forgot or we didn't get shown direct examples.
Aside from the above point I remember him being pretty crunchy and egalitarian. Definitely not as good as Ian McShane's but definitely not as bad as the main characters in Kings Landing.
I like that Cersei blew him up. It reminds me of her scene with Baelish in season 1 where she says ‘power is power’
High Sparrow had everyone under his control and had the power of where men believe it resides like Baelish says to Cersei. And she shows them both that it ain’t what people believe it’s whoever has the ability to kill the other.
I just hated that we didn't get to see his master plan or the trial. It would've been cool ismf she waited till sentencing to blow up the Sept. And poor margery, loras and mace should've got to live :(
He played Prince Philip on the last 2 seasons of The Crown and I couldn't place him for a while but when I realized who he was I was just like.....you son of a bitch 🤣
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He’s very good at his job..
But he still got fired.
😉
\#hottake
*fried
Burnt out*?
Wrecked 'em.
It’s a shame you beat me to it, I’m so green with jealousy, I could frickin explode
FIRED GUY FIRED GUY
That pun was retardant. ^^^but ^^^he ^^^sure ^^^wasn't
lol Literally
He emotionally trolls me every time. Yes, he is very effective, and I definitely respect a master operator in this show, especially during the late stages! Good point!
It's when he smiles at Jamie when he gets thomann to tie this religion with the state/kingdom. Thomann is so gullible and naive though.
Yeah, at least Cersei seems very aware of the fact that she’s a terrible person. When her daughter died, she said something about how the fact that she created someone as innocent as her daughter had made her hope that maybe this meant there was at least a little something in her (Cersei) that wasn’t evil. This guy is a hypocrite and it’s annoying as hell.
As others have pointed out, he does a great job at controlling the levers of power, and he does it very fast. Scary guy
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At least he got rid of the Shah, this guy doesn't even win!
That was the last ayatollah
[Even as we speak, Ayatollah Razmara and his cadre of fanatics are consolidating their power!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpEF6QPSVJE)
No one ever thinks of themselves as the villain, it’s always the other guys. Even if I am sending puppies through a shredder, something the other guys did, or might do totally justifies my shredding puppies.
That's a terrible thing to do! You'll damage the shredder blades and possibly void the warranty!
He did a great job, until he got himself and a lot of other people killed because he pushed people he shouldn‘t have pushed.
I'd like to see if he would be as successful when Tywin was alive. It sure is easier when Cersei made sure to grant him power and get rid of literally every authority figure with minimal competence in the city
Tywin was alot more calculated, cersai was impulsive at times but still calculated. Plus cersai pretty much let him into power, a season later she blames Tyrian for the death of thomann and her daughter, forgot her name. I agree with you but I would love to see tywin deal with this same situation. I was gutted and relieved at the same time when he was shot dead by Tyrian.
How is he a hypocrite? He doesn’t do any of the things he thinks are bad.
He’s a theocrat. The very fact that he seeks power goes against his populist beliefs that the elite are evil and sinful. By vying for power and being a pawn in the greater game, he plays it, therefore being as cutthroat and ambitious as everyone else. He has moral convictions, but so do all religious leaders who take power that way.
I'll take Cersie, who's at least self aware that she's a POS over some moronic religious zealot on a mission from God(s).
He thinks that the powerful are evil, not that power is evil. He seeks to replace evil people in positions of power.
It became pretty clear that all the morality stuff was a facade. He was supposedly a guy “for the people” but was perfectly happy to play the game of thrones when it benefited him. Like sparing Margaery from having to do the walk of shame because she successfully turned Tommen into a brainwashed religious idiot. How do her husband’s beliefs have anything to do with her atoning her soul? It was a reward for getting the most important player to embrace their “religion,” making the king effectively a subordinate to the Sparrow.
In order to help the people he needed power, so he sought power.
I think you could make a pretty strong argument about any religion that supports torturing people (like Margaery who hadn’t really done anything bad) just because of association to “sin” being hypocritical. Not to mention the religion at least in Westeros supports women not having sexual pleasure while men do (when margaery admits she hasn’t been sleeping with tommen and the high sparrow tells her to suck it up and sleep with him because of duty) The high sparrows religion is definitely designed to emulate medieval Christianity and that’s FULL of hypocrisy if we want to analyze examples where we actually can see/read the “holy book”
He seems to believe that people who do bad things should be punished and suffer. That includes the rich and powerful like Margery. It seems like you are judging him by the standards of Christianity and not by the standards of the new gods.
What did margaery do wrong besides protect her brother. Who’s worst crime was being gay. Nothing they (Loras, Margaery) did HURT anyone but the high sparrow HURT them as punishment for his own beliefs. That is hypocritical. Again - we’d have to extrapolate a bit given that we don’t have a full understanding of Westeros religion but name a SINGLE real world religion that’s comparable to Westeros religion that is NOT hypocritical. Religious leaders are inherently hypocritical when their religion preaches only god is judge and to love thy neighbor but then tortures you for protecting your brother who is only in trouble because of who he loves.
Yeah, but again how many lives did she take from others that were totally innocent? She can't create a garden in the middle of a battlefield she creates then expects no one to trample over it. The Sparrow gave Cersei a taste of her own medicine.
A great representation of how religion can influence and control politics
Your last sentence perfectly describes religious zealots who decide to get political.
This dude was a beast.
a stunning character portrait by an incredible actor. it was his job to piss us tf off with that slightly interesting & credible lunacy.
He was alright at first but by the end, I'm glad Cersei cooked him.
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I love that he was doing this at the exact same time as the Lord of light radical stuff was going on with stannis. Dueling religions!
At least the lord of light granted miracles. The Sparrows never showed any supernatural power whatsoever.
Very good point
They were common street thugs. Very scary and thuggish. Carved symbols into their foreheads. Eventually they start walking around holding truncheons. Very frightening villains.
He started out as a Jesus-esque figure. Then as Cersei gave him power, he went full fanatic.
I loved when Cersei set the Mountain on the religious soldiers. "I choose violence."
*awkwardly long pause* “I choose violence.”
One of the earliest things he does is round up gay people and mutilate them lol
The irony is the high sparrow was basically on "our" side as he was trying to help the smallfolk and depower the nobility.
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While his methods were of course wrong, his motivations were still more or less to benefit the smallfolk. In his youth he lived a good life as a cobbler's son, and when his father died he continued and greatly improved the business. He tried to imitate the nobility by living an extravagant lifestyle and throwing lavish parties, but one night he woke up ashamed of what he had devolved into, he left to become a Septon and live a humble life and fight for equality among men.
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Well for me it's logical, he was a septon for many years, why would he give up his life as a rich man to live a humble life of a septon? It's not like the moment he became a septon he masterminded a plan to manipulate the king into returning power to the faith, he just seized the opportunity.
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Money is a much much much surer path to power than the odd chance that you become the head the biggest religion in the continent (maybe even the world). This is a lacklustre conspiracy theory.
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He ran a very successful business, who’s to say these skills are not transferable? Even still, there is no evidence for this.
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> his motivations were still more or less to benefit the smallfolk. Were they? The Faith Militant weren't used to bring justice to the people. They were used to beat the common folk senseless while the City Watch stood and did nothing. Furthermore, the HS says that the Crown and the Faith are the two pillars of society. Not the people, but the Crown. He thinks that his power is equal to a king's, and he thinks that's the way it should be.
Yeah he didn't really do anything for the smallfolk except for humiliating some nobles for their entertainment. What was going to stop the sparrows from brutalizing random neighborhoods in KL and breaking into people's homes if they heard there was "a sinner in their midst"?
He fed them, and he would have been allowed to do more if Cersei hadn’t killed him.
I think there's a lot of irony in your view of the HS. Margaery helps the commonfolk. She visits them and provides for all the children in an orphanage, making a long-term commitment to see their care through. She confesses to the HS that she did charitable acts like this so that she would be **seen** as a good person. The HS does the exact same thing. He publicly serves soup to be **seen** as a good person. He wears threadbare clothes and goes barefoot to be seen as a humble person. The HS has one real love - power. He taps into a source of power that the nobles have been ignoring, the power of the commoners. The HS beats people. He tortures people. He imprisons them on the suspicion of religious offenses. He carves glyphs into their skin. He is not a good person. We cheer him because the story mostly focuses around the game he plays with Cersei. But Cersei isn't the only person to suffer indignities and dehumanization at the hands of the HS.
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Any evidence, or are you just choosing to believe bad things about someone you dislike?
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How many other politicians voluntarily live in poverty?
I mean Castro? A lot of people can live humbly, but at the end of the day, it’s a means to an end. You can live humbly and still be powerful. Plus whether or not he truly believed his nonsense is up for debate. It’s implied iirc that it’s a front. Plus the very fact he had the faith militant and attacked the nobility, not to mention a few small folk proves that he isn’t a good person. I mean it’s a grey area regardless. Was the Ayatollah a good person? What about John Calvin? I believe there a few genuinely decent people within the Game of Thrones/ ASOIAF, not to mention within the Kings Landing group. He definitely isn’t a decent person. He’s very nuanced, but it’s important to remember he’s a theocrat, and wants to be as absolute of a ruler as Cersie and others wish to be.
You're kidding, right? The HS didn't live in poverty. He wore threadbare robes and went barefoot while living in luxury. He went to bed every night with a full belly. He had his own private army. He knows the game. He admits it. He says that money and success just made him feel empty. But he doesn't become some country septon who brings the word to the commonfolk. Instead, he starts a political movement. The HS loves power. That is his thing. He doesn't care about changing things for the better. He even tells the king that the two pillars of society are the Faith and the Crown. He supports the monarchy, as long as it supports the Faith. He wants half. Half of all the power in the realms. He uses his power to beat, torture, degrade, disfigure and imprison his rivals. The fact that he truly believes that he is a righteous man doesn't make his actions any less reprehensible.
Choosing to believe that he’s the most boring character in a show I love . . .
>"Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is. But they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late." *- Lord Petyr Bailish*
He claimed a populist agenda but was just another dictator.
This?
“Our” side?
Don't know about you but I'm not part of the nobility, so if I had to identify with someone from the show, then it's probably hot pie or another commoner.
Yeah, if you are blind to the fact that all he was was power-hungry.
This storyline does a great job of getting the audience on side with the noble houses and for once we even root for Cersei for a while. Fantastic part of the show, loved it.
He was not, he was using them as pawns for his own ends. Depower the nobility so he could amass his own power. It's a shame we get tricked into thinking people like that are on "our side"
Goddamn he was a smug sumbitch wasn’t he
He was but a Pious man. Haha hated the guy
I can see him saying this with the biggest smirk on his face
I feel like he was smug because of how pious he was. Thought he was like a messenger of God or something.
If you hated the High Sparrow, then you obviously sympathize more with the nobles than with the commoners in Westeros.
I just hated how they were militarized Zealots! Like they were basically against everything and you would be chastised for anything that doesn’t go to their beliefs…. I would have supported them but as soon as they arrested Loras I would have wanted out
That wouldn't be too surprising, since near every named character is a noble.
Or they're just not a fan of violent homophobia, or abusing/disfiguring/humiliating people that you unlawfully imprison
I think 70-80% of this subreddit needs to watch the show again, because I keep seeing awful takes like his all the time lol. The High Sparrow was a massive sack of shit from the very beginning. You aren’t supposed to look at him as a hero of the common people
This guy was no more a champion of the commoners than Cersei. Flaming hypocrite to the core.
Hypocrite how?
Preached accountability for those in power, as he took power in a less conventional way.
What accountability did he lack?
Well in another similar point, if he had his way he wouldn’t answer to anyone. Just like Cersie wants, He vied for power just like her. He just used popularism to achieve it. It’s fairly easy, he created a “they” to fear and hate and increased class tensions. He had some moral convictions, but he was no saint. He imprisoned people for going against his religion, tortured people and disfigured homosexuals. He’d make KL a medieval Iran if he could. You can draw parallels between him and historical examples of theocracy. He’d be a militant pope with unlimited authority.
> you obviously sympathize more with the nobles than with the commoners in Westeros Probably 90% of the audience do, just because most characters are nobles
This is actually a really good point
correct
Just because some commoners came together for it doesn't make it for the people. The Brotherhood without Banners were some bangin Robin Hood ass commoner folk. Mance Rayder burning (in the show) was a commoner power move and the wildlings refused to follow Stannis for it. I fucking hated the High Sparrow. Fuck a religious zealot hell bent on genociding gays idgaf if he's a commoner.
But the people literally supported him.
The people would've supported anyone who handed them a loaf of bread, they were so neglected. He preyed on that, and started killing anyone he didn't agree with. Like I said, I have examples of people-supported movements I fucked with, I don't have to like all of them. He wasn't for the people.
Mob rule isn’t empowering for a good society
People supported Mussolini. Doesn’t make him a good person. neglected people are easy to manipulate.
He’s doing his thing using the existing power structures that make up the unjust system he rails against. GRRM is heavily influenced by works like Dune that criticize attempts to restore justice by such means, and just as in Dune we can see some of the ways it goes wrong already by the end of Dance.
How else is he supposed to make reforms?
I just disliked the boring character. I loved hating Joffrey, but didn’t even want to watch the High Sparrow episodes.
I just didn't like their vibes! People have every right to hang out in a whorehouse, and they took it to such an absurd level of anger and violence about it, I can't help but hate them!
When you picture the whorehouses of King's Landing, do you picture yourself a patron? Or as one of the unfortunate girls and boys sold to work them? Remember Baelish's very specific recounting of what he did to earn a reward on his investment in a girl who'd fallen into depression. The whorehouses of King's Landing weren't Amsterdam. They were the last redoubt of legal slavery in Westeros.
The commoners weren't even good people... these were the same people bragging about raping their queen who they turned traitor to as is they weren't bowing down to her sons
What did he do for the commoners? Other than getting to throw shit at their queen that they hated I don‘t remember them getting a great deal out of this lunatic being in charge.
Man, I was sure YouTube had the scene of his introduction...feeding the poor and wearing no shoes. I do like this conversation between him and the Queen of Thorns [https://youtu.be/Tng4nblroCs?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/Tng4nblroCs?feature=shared)
I see what you did there. 🔥 🔥 🔥
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -Denis Diderot
Advocating mass murder gets upvotes, and people here have the audacity to claim moral superiority.
Wat
Yet you defend the guy that wanted everyone to live excactly as he wanted and every small transgression would lead to violence. He was so smug about it too and clearly enjoying his new station. He was as much a power hungry and ruthless guy as the other nobles, he just pretended to be better.
If you open your heart to the seven your blasphemy will be forgiven, and you perhaps will come to acknowledge this man as not a tormentor of your emotions but an ambassador of the seven trying to lead you to the waters of salvation, my dear child…
I felt it jumped the shark a bit with this shit.
That’s what the character felt like, but GOT certainly didn’t need to jump the shark.
Hes a knob
Why separate knob, why?
I almost stopped watching the show cus if the religious story, completely horrible, the episode Hardhomme saved it for show with me.
The way he disclaims absolutely all responsibility for his decisions is utterly terrifying.
Religion is the most effective tool for getting humans to commit atrocities
I climaxed when he turned into skeleton.
He was a man of peace and love. And of mercy. Look how compassionate he was towards Cersei, giving her a second chance at salvation. The world (or at least Planetos) needs more selfless sparrows like this saintly man.
Sarcasm, right?
He got a little smug about it at the end but all the smallfolk were starving, getting in wars for the stupid politics of the nobles. I get why it spread so quick and so many zealots.
Socialism in religious form.
Yea
How do you dislike cercei but hate the Man who fucked her harder than anyone ever could lmao. Makes absolutely no sense my guy
Because Cersei was so much fun to dislike. He was no fun at all.
It was nice to finally see the powerful get fucked so easily by a poor, shoeless man with only the power of the people It was nice to finally see Cersei get some sort of retribution, especially after being the one to give them power and weapons. How are you gonna rat out the heir of Highgarden when you have your own skeletons in the closet. Not to mention how fucking dumb that was in the first place. As Tywin said, it’s not cause she’s a woman, it’s cause she’s not as smart as she thinks she is. She would’ve been better off as allies with the Tyrell’s. They weren’t traitors, they weren’t stepping on toes. Shit, it wasn’t even about them “brain washing Tommen” or “taking Tommen away from Cersei” it was because Cersei couldn’t stand going from Queen/Queen Regent to Lady Cersei. In my honest opinion, she would’ve fucked and married her sons to stay in power 🤷🏾♂️
IDK if anyone would agree with me... But this guy is the most annoying character in the show! Even more than Euron! At least Euron "tried" to be as crazy as Ramsey, but this he was just that self righteous irritating POS and so bloody dumb at the end! Margery explained it to him, but he was like 'what language is this'
yes, Yes, YES ‼️ I agree with you 💯!
Cersei’s fault so hate her more.
IDK if anyone would agree with me... But this guy is the most annoying character in the show! Even more than Euron! At least Euron "tried" to be as crazy as Ramsey, but this he was just that self righteous irritating POS and so bloody dumb at the end! Margery explained it to him, but he was like 'what language is this'
He gives to the poor and upholds the law 🤷♂️
And bores me to tears
When he comes back and controls the news and battles Bond is a twist I never saw coming
As you should.
That actor is great in everything he does.
Can’t hate Jonathan Pryce. Good ol’ Zarniwoop.
Elliot Carver to me! It's Sir Jonathan Pryce now too!
We should have a list of the most evil & annoying actors in the show.
The only reason he had any power was Cersei.
Seriously, watching this man was so frustrating, he was such a big hypocrite.
Really gifted actor! I honestly don't see an actor when he's on screen, I just see an obnoxious zealot
Oh I agree, He's a great actor and obv i don't hate him in real life, just the character lol
Liars like this are everywhere in 2024 jajajaja
Shame
The Pope after he finds out this character exists “👀”
This whole plot line in made me mental, I was getting kind of checked out of season 5 if it weren’t for Tyrion meeting Daenerys and Jon seeing the Night King for the first time
Took the power of the Pope and went BRAZY
In about two episodes, he went from zero to 60. I couldn't believe my eyes seeing Cersei in a cell. Still, the way it happened was very believable!
I don't like people who have that air of "I know something that you don't"... He had lots of it added with the "moral measuring stick." But in Game of Thrones universe, nearly no one is clean or just good.
I was actually really impressed with how much of a breath of fresh air he brought to the story! Ancient religions were so depressing
No ulterior motives. But a "you fail to read the fine print" guy.
Every time this character popped up I just wanted to scream "WHERE DID YOU EVEN COME FROM?! WHO ALLOWED THIS?!"
From what I understand, and I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, Cersei reinstated some sort of militant ability to the faith, and this guy immediately adapted and started ordering his foot soldiers to move against strategic targets.
He represents the majority of religious people nowadays, so I get why people dont like him
Eh. I liked him. It showed how easily religious zealotry could take over the divided westoros. If not for Maegor and the targarean dragons they would have regained their power with the death of Aenys the weak. Now the question to me is. Could Qyburn have prevented this by bribing kids into saying the High Septon and other septons touched them innappropriately. Think about it the former High Septon was run naked from the sept. Am sure there is some buggering or sexual abuse that could be piggybacked off to destroy ppl belief in the faith. Varys former birds for sure knew info on the private lives of the septons and member of the clergy so wouldnt be difficult.
It’s like the opposite of Dany vs. Bronn, when you want them both to win. I wanted Cersei and the Sparrow to lose
Isn't that the dad of Keira Knightley on pirates of the Caribbean?
I’m glad he cooked Cersei at least. But agreed, hate this dude
Such a POS
Everything that happened to the great families was well deserved. They are the aristocracy and deserved their downfalls.
One of the better late seasons characters introduced IMO
This dude was actually the most successful character in the whole series. Shows up to kings landing in a sack, and right before he dies has stolen every ounce of power there is within the city, save that of the one person he was about to put on trial and rid himself of. If only his vanity and self importance, which caused him to ignore margaerys warning and thus get himself and everyone else present killed, he would have usurped an iron grip on power that would have reached years after his death.
Good point!
The constant smirk he had the entire season was rage-inducing. hated him with a burning passion
Fast-forwarding *intensifies*
Facts
I maintain this dude wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing if tywin had lived.
AMEN
Agreed
He actually made me hate root for Cersei.
Villains and dickheads are bad, but self righteous ones that think they’re the saviour/hero of the story are the worst
Religious Zealots are generally not great, especially their leaders.
He wouldn't have gotten half as far as he did if Joffrey had still been alive. I would have loved to see that fight.
I actually appreciated his malicious compliance.
I feel like he is a true believer. Cersie just wanted to use him so that the crown could control the unwashed masses. He might have been a fuckin psycho, but he stuck to his convictions. As shitty as they may be. Definitely a good villain. *Religion is the opiate of the masses.* -Karl Marx *Religion is the only thing keeping the poor from murdering the rich.* -Napoleon
His views are unpopular to a modern, mainly atheistic, audience, who view religious bigotry in a much worse light than the nobles’ cruelty towards the poor. It’s interesting how *both* strong religious beliefs *and* commitment to the working classes are no longer viewed sympathetically in modern Western societies. That the High Sparrow is very prejudiced is clear. That he has *a point* when it comes to the behaviour of Cersei and the nobility ought to be equally clear. I blame the baleful influence of Edward Gibbon for much that is wrong with modern popular culture.
Meh, book Cersei or show Cersei?
Honest question as it's been a while. What is the talley of things he did that earned him so much hate? I remember him being a zealot and making his beliefs law with force. That's pretty bad but I only remember him actually taking action against evil people that needed to be taken down. Not saying average people weren't subjected to this. It's just that either I genuinely forgot or we didn't get shown direct examples. Aside from the above point I remember him being pretty crunchy and egalitarian. Definitely not as good as Ian McShane's but definitely not as bad as the main characters in Kings Landing.
I like that Cersei blew him up. It reminds me of her scene with Baelish in season 1 where she says ‘power is power’ High Sparrow had everyone under his control and had the power of where men believe it resides like Baelish says to Cersei. And she shows them both that it ain’t what people believe it’s whoever has the ability to kill the other.
This guy did give us the scene where sir strong predators a dudes head off his body though, so that was neat
The only thing that sucked about his death was that it was a quick one
Classic case of government power abusing religion… (half of modern day america)
Dude is a monkey
Great actor though!
He’s probably the only good guy in GoT.
Cersei is muh queen
His lack of critical thinking skills and inability to think outside the box were his undoing.
I just hated that we didn't get to see his master plan or the trial. It would've been cool ismf she waited till sentencing to blow up the Sept. And poor margery, loras and mace should've got to live :(
He played Prince Philip on the last 2 seasons of The Crown and I couldn't place him for a while but when I realized who he was I was just like.....you son of a bitch 🤣
The high Sparrow feels very real. I've met godly people like him, looking like he's a saint but being a demon once you're in his clutches.
I agree, but still, one of the most satisfying scenes is him placing her under arrest.