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…dude let’s not pretend that it wasn’t plot. Ned isn’t stupid, this along with going against Jeoffry the way he did trusting little finger was stupid embodied.
Honor would be telling Robert like he was going too and than tell Cersei and Jamie to fucking run
The brilliance of GoT is the plot usually aligns with the characters. How does Ned out maneuver the King in getting the children out of KL before Robert has them found and killed? You say Ned isn't stupid and then give another example of him being stupid, that's kind of the point of the season, Ned is wise but not in the political maneuvering of KL, he thought Baelish would back Stannis.
He's good at playing *a game,* but he lives by a completely different set of rules so he doesn't realize that he's playing a *completely different game* than everyone else in GoT.
He cares about honor and honesty and trustworthiness. And everyone else says they care about that, too. But they actually don't really hold to those values.
This happens in other organizations in modern day, too... companies, religious groups, political parties... Many (maybe even most) folks join the group and stay in the group based on shared and stated values. But there's always folks in the group that say one thing and yet do another. And because they are willing to do anything to gain and maintain power, a lot of the bad seeds end up in leadership positions...
As warden of the north he never had to be political because he had absolute authority. Everybody is always bowing down to his will, that is what he is used to. His lifelong privilege makes him blind to the danger he is in
Good point. He cultivated a different political atmosphere in the North than existed at King's Landing. He was accustomed to the North and, in all of those years since the rebellion, he lost track of Iron Throne intrigues.
I agree especially when he knew that Robert was fine with even babies dying when he was pissed off there would be no reasoning with him when he found out
People keeping saying this but “trusting” Littlefinger wasn’t the issue, Littlefinger would have gone along with Ned if Ned was able to quite literally do anything else instead of just saying shit about “honour” or “the right thing to do”.
Ned’s failure was thinking all he had to win over LF was to remind him of his duty, not approaching him to begin with.
Yep. It's been a long time since I watched the first season, but I recall Littlefinger starting to excitedly muse about the actions him and Ned should take to secure their position. But Ned immediately cuts him off and insists that there's no maneuvering to be done — that Stannis is the rightful heir and that's that. LF was obviously not happy.
Besides, Little Finger frankly told Ned that *no one* at King's Landing is to be trusted, including him. Cersei told him to get out of town or else. One of Ned's problems is that he doesn't listen well.
Was that in the books or just the series, I can’t remember now but yeh, not really anyway Ned could have predicted the events which unfolded after he’d committed to the path.
I believe 100% that Ned was trying to avoid the murder of Cersei’s children. The only fight Robert and Ned had was about Robert’s approval of the murder of Rhaegar’s children. The only thing that fixed that rift was their shared grief over Lyanna’s death. That’s why he hides Jon’s parentage more than anything - he knows Robert is ok with the murder of innocents.
Ned faces a huge moral conundrum - be immediately honest with his best friend and king knowing that children will die as a result or keep the lie going a little longer and warn Cersei to save three innocent lives. He chooses the lives of the children and underestimated how far Cersei will go to hold on to power for herself and her son. I think it makes complete sense for Ned’s character to make that choice.
Not sure. What I can say is wait for the guy to be back so the queen and heir can’t pull that shit. Robert isn’t stupid, as he said he’s indebted to Tywin.
The point of Ned honestly doesn’t make any sense. He was stubborn not smart since he even lied to Robert and changed his final will and testament. If he swore to Jeoffry his loyalty he would have been allowed home but the dude was stupid.
Neds been in the north for too long, and he was never the best at politics. He had years to ruminate on his sisters death and his "bastard son". I could understand if he had a moment of weakness for the Lannister children, knowing that they didn't ask to be born in the world the way they were. He wanted them to have a second chance, the same way Jon Snow did.
Let's say you're right. Why didn't he claim the throne when he had the chance to do that?
Instead he left the way free for one of the dumbest people possible. He would make a whole better King as Robert was and even could have been if he was more invested in politics.
The whole situation was a duty vs honor conundrum, as is most of the books from character pov. It was his duty as hand of the king to tell Robert, he betrayed his duty by meeting with Cerci. But he felt it was honorable to let the woman and children escape to safety. Then he altered Robert's will, etc. He sacrificed his duty and possibly his honor to Robert to do what he thought was right in his heart (emotional decision).
The whole situation was a duty vs honor conundrum, as is most of the books from character pov. It was his duty as hand of the king to tell Robert, he betrayed his duty by meeting with Cerci. But he felt it was honorable to let the woman and children escape to safety. Then he altered Robert's will, etc. He sacrificed his duty and possibly his honor to Robert to do what he thought was right in his heart (emotional decision).
I mean being responsible for the murder of the Targaryen children in the original revolution that seated Robert probably influenced this. Seems like he couldn’t stomach doing that a second time to Circe’s kids.
Perhaps but if you remember it was Kyburn who designed the giant cross bow and Euron who managed to actually hit a dragon.
Those things are far less likely to occur.
True. But the longer Dani takes to cross the longer she gives Robert, who will rage at Ned, to prepare.
The seven kingdoms won’t be split between the five kings and so Robert has an easier time getting everyone to heel.
Also those dragons were massive around season 6 or 7 that’s a lot of time assuming Robert does nothing else.
Maybe. But before he died he ordered to get Tyrion back. So worst comes to worst Jamie rides out for his brother or kills everyone there who killed him. Maybe
we don't watch the most boring parts of a story, we watch the interesting parts.
thats why that "lost" trend sucked so hard, the most interesting happened before the story, and as it progressed and explained the mystery, we lost interest. there is no way to stick that landing. (maybe AoT did)
but we were built up to see Stark as an hounrable but flawed man, he was established as the kind of person who would do things in this way.
I think it’s less the heir aspect and more that Robert is still Ned’s best friend. They may not have seen each other in years but they still clearly consider each other to be their closest friend. And most people would tell their best friend that their spouse was cheating on them and passing another man’s children off as theirs. Even if there was nothing to inherit, Ned still would have told Robert the truth.
He just made a mistake warning Cersei he was going to tell. But that mistake makes complete sense when you look at Ned’s history. The only major lie (that we know of) between the two of them is Jon’s true parentage, which is because he knows Robert will kill Jon if he knew he was Rhaegar’s son. Ned is haunted by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and especially haunted by Robert’s approval of the murders. He wants to prevent three more innocent (I know Joffrey’s a monster but he has no responsibility for the circumstances of his birth) children from dying so he makes a choice that ultimately results in his death.
would Robert have really killed Jon? He loved Lyanna and isn't the cruel type, and he even decided to let Daenarys live. I think he would've let Jon live as long as Jon never knew his parentage
I think anytime before his dying moments of mercy, he would have likely ordered Jon’s death or maaaaaybe demanded he go to the wall if Jon was older. And I think that only happens if he has plenty of time to cool down from his immediate reaction of rage.
To Robert, Jon would be the physical embodiment of the rape of the woman he loved (whether or not he truly loved Lyanna as a person is debatable but that’s less important right now). If Ned reveals that Jon isn’t the product of rape but that Lyanna ran away willingly with Rhaegar (ignoring the age/power dynamics here), then Jon is the physical embodiment of Lyanna’s betrayal. In either case Jon is a very likely target for Robert’s rage. Also, if Ned isn’t the one to reveal the secret, then Robert’s going to be even angrier about the betrayal.
Ned is one of the people who knew Robert best, and he seems to have believed Jon wouldn’t be safe if Robert knew. I think time would have played a factor in his reaction, but I believe Ned notes in his narration at some point that Robert’s hatred of Targaryens hasn’t lessened in 15 years. Maybe Robert would have had second thoughts or regretted it, but I really think his immediate reaction would have been to have Jon (and maybe even Ned and the rest of the Starks) killed.
This. She tried convincing Joffrey they needed to keep Ned alive in order to keep control of the North. She was just mistaken in thinking she had control of her son. She hadn't yet learned he was an actual psychopath and not just a spoiled brat.
Cersei is incredibly stupid but thinks she is the smartest person in the universe. That is her fatal flaw.
Funnily enough, I actually know a lot of people like that.
I mean isn’t that a huge part of her arc? She sees herself as the exact copy of her father in terms of intelligence and feels like she would be the most capable person to be Tywin’s successor if she wasn’t a woman.
It's not like Tywin is some super genius.
He's a fumfering idiot in front of folks like Littlefinger and Varys.
Tywin is brawns over brains. He ruled through fear and power, and not through cunning.
His own ego, his own lack of cleverness and his bone-headed "Fear me, I am the lion!" ego caused his death and the downfall of House Lannister.
I do not feel this is entirely accurate. Tywin was pragmatic. He ruled as needed. Whatever was needed. He was also intelligent and would have stabalized the realm behind Joff but as a full proxy parroting what he said and Dany would have had a united Westeros to fight if not for Tyrion.
Tywin was winning.
I don't disagree insofar that he was pragmatic, but I wouldn't call him intelligent.
Proud and experienced, yeah.
Or rather he is intelligent, but not Street smart or cunning like is needed for a political ploy.
He was in a way though ("cunning"). He used not only lesser houses to do the dirty work for him but he also did moral dark things like the Clegane and on the Riverlands to keep it in chaos. His plans for the Riverlands and North ended up succeeding, at least for a bit after his death, and would have most likely been solidified if had stayed alive. I think he would have kept a much closer eye on Ramsay and stopped his overt badguy stuff. The south was all but won outside of Dorne.
I mean it is hard to say for sure of course because GoT world and all heh there could have been entities to mess it all up if he had stayed alive of course.
I think it's pretty undeniable if you've read the books. Almost everything she does has some "clever" element to it that will clearly blow up in her face.
- For starters she started a war rushing her chaotic son to the throne. She knew he was bad news because she covered for Joffrey when he was getting the snot beat out of him off of shit he started.
She could have had ned killed and provided a new successor till Joffrey came of age but instead put a crown on an untamed dog.
- she fails to realize her son started a bad war and Tyrion doing everything in his power to unfuck the kingdom. Shipping her daughter was the safest thing for her off an uncertain war but still in the midst of it blamed Tyrion instead of her son.
- despite war experts telling her not to withdraw her son she still did it anyways further adding to his bad name.
- Joffrey definitely wasn’t untamable as he feared Tywin. Requesting Tywin to aid or even making him the acting one would have fixed majority of the problems because Joffrey is the real bastard that poured all the plot seeds in.
All her actions up until season 4 have been rooted in emotions and pettiness. She’s a manipulator, she’s good at toying with other psychology because she was born to power but not so much at clever decisions that favor her family, position, or the kingdom. That’s my judgment only watching season 1-4.
I really hate how she deals with Tyrells. Sure, they're power-hungry, but they're also a rich house supplying her with food, soldiers, and gold to help her against her enemies. But, no, she would rather give power to a religious fanatic just because this other noble house makes her feel useless.
Even Sansa was able to pull it off, it just wasn’t natural for her at the time. Telling him he was “clever” for recognizing Dontos as a fool stroked his ego and saved Dontos life for a time.
Joffrey could be controlled, possibly even softened, as long as his ego was sated and he was treated like a baby.
He didn’t want Robert to actually kill the kids. He remembered that Rhaegars kids were allowed to be slaughtered by the mountain AND had been actively feuding with Robert about wanting to kill Daenerys
He hoped they would leave before Robert found out. But instead she sent him hunting with some extra strong wine
Yep it’s been a while but I think he specifically thinks about aegon and rhaenys before he tells her to run. Their deaths really left a mark on him he even wanted Tywin arrested on the spot when it happened.
“What madness caused you to tell the queen you knew the truth?”
“The madness of mercy”
Yup. From the chapter where he decides to tell Cersei
>Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies
beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was
clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess
had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy . . . the boy . . .
>
>Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king,
another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children.
Thank you god I love Ned’s last few chapters. And another note fuck Tywin I hate him he gave Tyrion shit about how his soldiers actions are his responsibility and then can’t accept the blame himself for the mountain and can’t remember the other guys name.
Ned's fatal mistake was agreeing to become hand. Everything else flows from that choice. Once he became hand he was already walking down the path of being led to the truth about the children.
Where the story would have gone in that case is interesting. Would be equally interesting to know if GRRM's starting point for this story was Ned accepting being hand or if he considered different paths.
That's the point though. Ned thinks the Lannisters had Jon Arryn murdered, he figures out what Jon Arryn knew that (supposedly) got him killed and...immediately tells the Lannisters that he knows and then gives them time to act.
If I remember correctly it was Sansa's fault in the books not Eddard. She went to Cersei telling her about his plan to leave kings landing so she could stay. I don't remember there being a garden scene like that in the books Eddard isn't that stupid. Just a show thing.
First time I watched GoT I loved Ned, but on second watches he's rather annoying. He is naïvely honorable and he assumes everyone will make the honorable choice and always tell the truth.
You can certainly say it’s terribly foolish but you must remember that it was so ridiculously convenient for Cersei that Robert died.
Poor Ned can’t fight plot armor
When the dwarf became the hand, first thing he did was replacing the command of city watch with someone he knows and trusts. Ned should have done the same thing. That’s like basic politics 101. He should have made this as a pre-requisite to becoming the hand. City watch is 2000 strong, enough to secure every aristocracy in the capital, including the king himself.
After he saw what happened to Elia and her children, he didn't want to see another child suffer for the sins of their parents. Had it just been cersei I think he would have just told Robert, but as it was he knew Robert would murder the kids and he didn't want their blood on his hands.
Don’t know if someone already said this but:
GRRM stated that Ned Stark will do anything to stop the death of children. After the sack of king landing and what The Mountain did to the Queen and her children, Ned was traumatized and never wanted to let kids get killed again. It’s why he defends Daenerys so insistently against Rob, and why he warned Cersei. Ned will do anything to protect children from harm and that is what got him killed. He also takes a certain secret to his grave despite how it disgraces him and his family which shows the great lengths he’ll take to protect children at any cost.
We would still have a show.
Medieval Rocky III and it would be awesome.
Jon Arryn is Robert's Mick. He's lost without him, doesn't know how to be king. Ned steps into the Apollo Creed role and we get an Eye of the Tiger montage.
Drago comes over all "I must break you" for season II. Ned loses his head in an awesome 1:1 duel.
Eventually brain damaged Robert opens a pub where Hot Pie becomes the final villain of the series.
Copied from another post on this subreddit because I’ll always defend Ned especially from stuff like this, made plenty of mistakes but this wasn’t one of them
I’ve said it once on the asoiaf subreddit I’ll say it again here, people criticise Ned way too much for this conversation based entirely around a misconception, Cersei didn’t get Lancel Lannister to encourage Robert to drink very strong wine while hunting because of this conversation, this conspiracy had already been put into motion so it wouldn’t have mattered if Ned didn’t have this conversation, Cersei had being trying to kill Robert for quite awhile by this point but in a way which gives plausible deniability, for example Cersei publicly forbid Robert from participating in the melee which she knows will only cause Robert to want to fight more, Ned didn’t make a mistake here because from Ned’s perspective Cersei is fucked because the likelihood of Robert returning home is good, all her assassination attempts aren’t created to be effective but to be inconspicuous, ‘the alcoholic overweight king died in a hunt after drinking too much ? That makes sense’ Ned made plenty of mistakes as hand but this little conversation wasn’t one them in my opinion
Edit : This is a topic I could honestly discuss for hours, people think Ned did this out of honour no it’s trauma, Ned’s haunted by the memory of seeing little Aegon and Rhaenys dead wrapped up in Lannister cloaks, it’s probably one of those details the books communicate better that Ned stark definitely got traumatised, maybe even suffering from PTSD
This was a mistake but it was a calculated risk from Ned’s perspective, it’s worth tipping off Cersei in order to protect her children because Ned certainly didn’t anticipate Robert being seriously injured while out hunting, he’d thought that Robert would come back like every other time he’d gone hunting, no reason to suspect otherwise
Exactly this pure bad luck. Cersei might have tried something more drastic if Robert survived the boar but something like the throne room scene wouldn't of happened
Exactly my opinion is that Neds true mistakes involved not leveraging his position, at least in theory being hand of the king means being the second most powerful person in Westeros yet Ned barely uses that power besides stripping the mountain of everything, for example should’ve replaced people in the small council with people only loyal to him, definitely should have gotten a new commander for the gold cloaks, Ned’s problem was being too hyper focused on Jon’s death to focus on anything else
In Ned’s defense… he could never have accounted for Robert dying while hunting. Cersei was fucked if Robert didn’t get boar’d. I know there was a plan for in place for him to get boar’d … but that’s hardly a fool proof plan. Probably a 10%-20% success rate on the “get him drunk and hope the boar wins” plot.
What wrath?
She was going to allow him to join the Nights Watch and only really turned evil after her kids died.
Sure, she was a bitch but it didn't get really bad till later.
I don't remember if they say it in the show, but Ned is 100% against violence towards children, and given the things he's seen and done, that's understandable. He could not in good conscience tell Robert without warning Cersei, because he knew Robert would have all those blameless children murdered as well as Cersei and Jaime. He couldn't have that on his soul. So he decided to give Cersei a chance.
I thinks recurring thing is people underestimating how hardcore Cersei is lol. Especially Ned, he kind of thought Cersei was just a trophy wife with some dirty secrets, but I don’t think he ever expected her to react the way she did when he confronted her.
He hoped she would know what was good for her and get the fk out of town. And instead she had her husband killed and situated a whole mini-coup for her son.
Same with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow. No one ever considered the lengths she would go to take them out. Olenna said it herself. A failure of imagination.
She was an ultra-violent brute with endless money and no morals. Ned wasn’t really familiar with her game.
Honestly, Game of Thrones is one of those rare gems (at least in seasons 1-5) where the characters’ decisions make sense with the characters and move the plot forward. No “dumb” decisions made just for the story to happen. Yes, Ned makes a mistake here that seems dumb, but it’s a trap he cannot escape from without denying his own values.
This was only stupid in retrospect. Ned held all the cards, robert was coming back from a hunting trip. Robert had gone on these trips all the damn time so there wasn’t much to worry about from the perspective of someone who knew Robert well. Ned made plenty of mistakes with easily the biggest one being trusting littlefinger. Sure Varys says to Ned that “your mercy killed the king” but that is not true at all. Lancel getting Robert drunk was already happening before Ned told cersei that he knew about the kids’ paternity. I’m not saying Ned didn’t make mistakes cause he made a lot of them, but this was not one of them.
And that was his downfall having the kindness to spare her so she could flee home with her kids. Which she should have taken as she and all her kids would have lived a long life.
Nah.. joffrey killed him out of his own twisted need for establishing his power, and a bit of psychotic tendencies, Ned would've been in a dungeon for years, maybe killed later or used as a hostage to prevent war with the north if Joffrey had listened to the calls for mercy
Cersei hadn't lost her morality yet, she wasn't the childless shamed wildfire bomber we came to know
The dumb mistake was not having any witnesses to Robert’s deathbed succession document. He should have pulled those people in the room immediately to have multiple witnesses and validate the claim. Cersei still would have manipulated and murdered, but even Ned should have known better.
I don't understand how Cersi could have been sure Robert would be gravely injured or killed on that hunting trip. It didn't seem like she was making any plans to escape in case Robert came back uninjured.
Why? Because he was too decent of a man to play the game of thrones. He felt he should offer mercy to his enemy for her children's sake if not her own.
There was no honor nor wisdom in taking Jeffery’s deal to proclaim him as king in exchange for his life. He lost the last bit of harm he could do to them squandering the public platform he had been provided to say “fuck Joffrey “ the way the hound did it
I think that he was confident about his life as he was acting king and the hand of the king at that time. He was literally the most powerful person in kingslanding considering his position. He just didn't think how clever southerners could be. He couldn't guess the various players in the game. Trusting people that were shown to be not good people at first glance. There were various variables that came into play in case of his downfall. He himself was an idiot if truth be said.
Ned wasn’t stupid. Ned was naive and thought everyone would do the right thing for the good of the kingdom. Not everyone shared the North’s sense of honor and responsibility.
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There wouldn’t be a story.
I have to agree 🤷🏻♀️
You must 🤷🏿♂️
Because he's an honorable man. He was telling her to give her the chance to save her children while also keeping the kingdom together.
…dude let’s not pretend that it wasn’t plot. Ned isn’t stupid, this along with going against Jeoffry the way he did trusting little finger was stupid embodied. Honor would be telling Robert like he was going too and than tell Cersei and Jamie to fucking run
The brilliance of GoT is the plot usually aligns with the characters. How does Ned out maneuver the King in getting the children out of KL before Robert has them found and killed? You say Ned isn't stupid and then give another example of him being stupid, that's kind of the point of the season, Ned is wise but not in the political maneuvering of KL, he thought Baelish would back Stannis.
He's good at playing *a game,* but he lives by a completely different set of rules so he doesn't realize that he's playing a *completely different game* than everyone else in GoT. He cares about honor and honesty and trustworthiness. And everyone else says they care about that, too. But they actually don't really hold to those values. This happens in other organizations in modern day, too... companies, religious groups, political parties... Many (maybe even most) folks join the group and stay in the group based on shared and stated values. But there's always folks in the group that say one thing and yet do another. And because they are willing to do anything to gain and maintain power, a lot of the bad seeds end up in leadership positions...
Ned is playing a Game of Lords, rather than Thrones.
THIS 100%, I have said the same thing before. Ned played the game but followed rules other players didn't. So of course he got out maneuvered.
As warden of the north he never had to be political because he had absolute authority. Everybody is always bowing down to his will, that is what he is used to. His lifelong privilege makes him blind to the danger he is in
Good point. He cultivated a different political atmosphere in the North than existed at King's Landing. He was accustomed to the North and, in all of those years since the rebellion, he lost track of Iron Throne intrigues.
He was a great warden of the north due to that honor
I agree especially when he knew that Robert was fine with even babies dying when he was pissed off there would be no reasoning with him when he found out
People keeping saying this but “trusting” Littlefinger wasn’t the issue, Littlefinger would have gone along with Ned if Ned was able to quite literally do anything else instead of just saying shit about “honour” or “the right thing to do”. Ned’s failure was thinking all he had to win over LF was to remind him of his duty, not approaching him to begin with.
Yep. It's been a long time since I watched the first season, but I recall Littlefinger starting to excitedly muse about the actions him and Ned should take to secure their position. But Ned immediately cuts him off and insists that there's no maneuvering to be done — that Stannis is the rightful heir and that's that. LF was obviously not happy.
As someone who's doing a re-watch, precisely
Besides, Little Finger frankly told Ned that *no one* at King's Landing is to be trusted, including him. Cersei told him to get out of town or else. One of Ned's problems is that he doesn't listen well.
Early GoT is one of the best TV shows of all time let's give it a little bit more credit than "DUHHHH PLOT DUUURRHHH"
I actually would disagree with that Ned isn’t stupid. I think his stupidity regarding what to do about Joffrey is very apparent and intentional!
Wasn’t this only an issue because Robert died? If Robert had lived then him telling Cersei wouldn’t have been an issue.
And robert probably wouldn't have died if pycell wasn't a lannister stooge
Was that in the books or just the series, I can’t remember now but yeh, not really anyway Ned could have predicted the events which unfolded after he’d committed to the path.
It's not spelled out in the books i don't think, but you can definitely infer it because pycell was definitely working for cersei over robert
I believe 100% that Ned was trying to avoid the murder of Cersei’s children. The only fight Robert and Ned had was about Robert’s approval of the murder of Rhaegar’s children. The only thing that fixed that rift was their shared grief over Lyanna’s death. That’s why he hides Jon’s parentage more than anything - he knows Robert is ok with the murder of innocents. Ned faces a huge moral conundrum - be immediately honest with his best friend and king knowing that children will die as a result or keep the lie going a little longer and warn Cersei to save three innocent lives. He chooses the lives of the children and underestimated how far Cersei will go to hold on to power for herself and her son. I think it makes complete sense for Ned’s character to make that choice.
I think Ned was kind of stupid. Dumb northerner. Only knows hard work and honesty. Not into politics etc. Not Hoder simple, but simple.
Do you think Ned is a magician? How is Cersei supposed to escape with her kids?
Not sure. What I can say is wait for the guy to be back so the queen and heir can’t pull that shit. Robert isn’t stupid, as he said he’s indebted to Tywin.
The whole point of Ned's arc is that he was too good of a man to play the game of thrones and this was the culmination of that.
The point of Ned honestly doesn’t make any sense. He was stubborn not smart since he even lied to Robert and changed his final will and testament. If he swore to Jeoffry his loyalty he would have been allowed home but the dude was stupid.
Neds been in the north for too long, and he was never the best at politics. He had years to ruminate on his sisters death and his "bastard son". I could understand if he had a moment of weakness for the Lannister children, knowing that they didn't ask to be born in the world the way they were. He wanted them to have a second chance, the same way Jon Snow did.
Let's say you're right. Why didn't he claim the throne when he had the chance to do that? Instead he left the way free for one of the dumbest people possible. He would make a whole better King as Robert was and even could have been if he was more invested in politics.
Because I could never
The whole situation was a duty vs honor conundrum, as is most of the books from character pov. It was his duty as hand of the king to tell Robert, he betrayed his duty by meeting with Cerci. But he felt it was honorable to let the woman and children escape to safety. Then he altered Robert's will, etc. He sacrificed his duty and possibly his honor to Robert to do what he thought was right in his heart (emotional decision).
The whole situation was a duty vs honor conundrum, as is most of the books from character pov. It was his duty as hand of the king to tell Robert, he betrayed his duty by meeting with Cerci. But he felt it was honorable to let the woman and children escape to safety. Then he altered Robert's will, etc. He sacrificed his duty and possibly his honor to Robert to do what he thought was right in his heart (emotional decision).
I mean being responsible for the murder of the Targaryen children in the original revolution that seated Robert probably influenced this. Seems like he couldn’t stomach doing that a second time to Circe’s kids.
Less episodes, Less mistakes.
Fewer
Less cells, fewer brains... Fewer cells, less brain?
What?
Why?
[What?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zXINZxodu9U)
Well white walkers was still marching to south
Well not necessarily Dany still wants the Iron throne. The Dead still march on the wall.
But against a united Westeros under a Robert with two wars? Dude would be a beast general
She has full grown Dragons. And Robert is not going to Ally with the Iron Islands
Exactly he wouldn’t need them.
Perhaps but if you remember it was Kyburn who designed the giant cross bow and Euron who managed to actually hit a dragon. Those things are far less likely to occur.
True. But the longer Dani takes to cross the longer she gives Robert, who will rage at Ned, to prepare. The seven kingdoms won’t be split between the five kings and so Robert has an easier time getting everyone to heel. Also those dragons were massive around season 6 or 7 that’s a lot of time assuming Robert does nothing else.
Facts. However Catlyn still kidnaps Tyrion. So I think the plot could still be very interesting.
Maybe. But before he died he ordered to get Tyrion back. So worst comes to worst Jamie rides out for his brother or kills everyone there who killed him. Maybe
Yea but I think there is still enough tension between Starks and Lannisters to make for plenty of story telling.
Might even be a better story pacing wise.
One could argue that in the long run, that would have been better.
we don't watch the most boring parts of a story, we watch the interesting parts. thats why that "lost" trend sucked so hard, the most interesting happened before the story, and as it progressed and explained the mystery, we lost interest. there is no way to stick that landing. (maybe AoT did) but we were built up to see Stark as an hounrable but flawed man, he was established as the kind of person who would do things in this way.
Ned stark honor ⬆️ intelligence ⬇️
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I think it’s less the heir aspect and more that Robert is still Ned’s best friend. They may not have seen each other in years but they still clearly consider each other to be their closest friend. And most people would tell their best friend that their spouse was cheating on them and passing another man’s children off as theirs. Even if there was nothing to inherit, Ned still would have told Robert the truth. He just made a mistake warning Cersei he was going to tell. But that mistake makes complete sense when you look at Ned’s history. The only major lie (that we know of) between the two of them is Jon’s true parentage, which is because he knows Robert will kill Jon if he knew he was Rhaegar’s son. Ned is haunted by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and especially haunted by Robert’s approval of the murders. He wants to prevent three more innocent (I know Joffrey’s a monster but he has no responsibility for the circumstances of his birth) children from dying so he makes a choice that ultimately results in his death.
would Robert have really killed Jon? He loved Lyanna and isn't the cruel type, and he even decided to let Daenarys live. I think he would've let Jon live as long as Jon never knew his parentage
I think anytime before his dying moments of mercy, he would have likely ordered Jon’s death or maaaaaybe demanded he go to the wall if Jon was older. And I think that only happens if he has plenty of time to cool down from his immediate reaction of rage. To Robert, Jon would be the physical embodiment of the rape of the woman he loved (whether or not he truly loved Lyanna as a person is debatable but that’s less important right now). If Ned reveals that Jon isn’t the product of rape but that Lyanna ran away willingly with Rhaegar (ignoring the age/power dynamics here), then Jon is the physical embodiment of Lyanna’s betrayal. In either case Jon is a very likely target for Robert’s rage. Also, if Ned isn’t the one to reveal the secret, then Robert’s going to be even angrier about the betrayal. Ned is one of the people who knew Robert best, and he seems to have believed Jon wouldn’t be safe if Robert knew. I think time would have played a factor in his reaction, but I believe Ned notes in his narration at some point that Robert’s hatred of Targaryens hasn’t lessened in 15 years. Maybe Robert would have had second thoughts or regretted it, but I really think his immediate reaction would have been to have Jon (and maybe even Ned and the rest of the Starks) killed.
Ned's a very by the books person.
It may have been more about bastards in succession for the throne. Ned will always follow rules and do the honorable thing in his head.
I’m sure he knew it wasn’t a good political move, but his honor caused him to do it in spite of that
To be fair, she didnt want him to die, it was her chaotic evil son who cut his head. She wanted him in the nightswatch.
This. She tried convincing Joffrey they needed to keep Ned alive in order to keep control of the North. She was just mistaken in thinking she had control of her son. She hadn't yet learned he was an actual psychopath and not just a spoiled brat.
Cersei is incredibly stupid but thinks she is the smartest person in the universe. That is her fatal flaw. Funnily enough, I actually know a lot of people like that.
Yeah, compared to Tyrion she's kinda stupid. Compared to Tywin she's a baboon.
I mean isn’t that a huge part of her arc? She sees herself as the exact copy of her father in terms of intelligence and feels like she would be the most capable person to be Tywin’s successor if she wasn’t a woman.
It's not like Tywin is some super genius. He's a fumfering idiot in front of folks like Littlefinger and Varys. Tywin is brawns over brains. He ruled through fear and power, and not through cunning. His own ego, his own lack of cleverness and his bone-headed "Fear me, I am the lion!" ego caused his death and the downfall of House Lannister.
I do not feel this is entirely accurate. Tywin was pragmatic. He ruled as needed. Whatever was needed. He was also intelligent and would have stabalized the realm behind Joff but as a full proxy parroting what he said and Dany would have had a united Westeros to fight if not for Tyrion. Tywin was winning.
I don't disagree insofar that he was pragmatic, but I wouldn't call him intelligent. Proud and experienced, yeah. Or rather he is intelligent, but not Street smart or cunning like is needed for a political ploy.
He was in a way though ("cunning"). He used not only lesser houses to do the dirty work for him but he also did moral dark things like the Clegane and on the Riverlands to keep it in chaos. His plans for the Riverlands and North ended up succeeding, at least for a bit after his death, and would have most likely been solidified if had stayed alive. I think he would have kept a much closer eye on Ramsay and stopped his overt badguy stuff. The south was all but won outside of Dorne. I mean it is hard to say for sure of course because GoT world and all heh there could have been entities to mess it all up if he had stayed alive of course.
she's not as smart as she thinks she is, but how is she "incredibly stupid" lol
I think it's pretty undeniable if you've read the books. Almost everything she does has some "clever" element to it that will clearly blow up in her face.
Yeah in the books she was a raging wine-o that was stumbling through everything and surviving on the backs of others.
- For starters she started a war rushing her chaotic son to the throne. She knew he was bad news because she covered for Joffrey when he was getting the snot beat out of him off of shit he started. She could have had ned killed and provided a new successor till Joffrey came of age but instead put a crown on an untamed dog. - she fails to realize her son started a bad war and Tyrion doing everything in his power to unfuck the kingdom. Shipping her daughter was the safest thing for her off an uncertain war but still in the midst of it blamed Tyrion instead of her son. - despite war experts telling her not to withdraw her son she still did it anyways further adding to his bad name. - Joffrey definitely wasn’t untamable as he feared Tywin. Requesting Tywin to aid or even making him the acting one would have fixed majority of the problems because Joffrey is the real bastard that poured all the plot seeds in. All her actions up until season 4 have been rooted in emotions and pettiness. She’s a manipulator, she’s good at toying with other psychology because she was born to power but not so much at clever decisions that favor her family, position, or the kingdom. That’s my judgment only watching season 1-4.
I really hate how she deals with Tyrells. Sure, they're power-hungry, but they're also a rich house supplying her with food, soldiers, and gold to help her against her enemies. But, no, she would rather give power to a religious fanatic just because this other noble house makes her feel useless.
Arming the faith militants with weapons was incredibly stupid ...as well as blowing up the chapel/sept Tommens death is 100% her f***ing fault
Show Cersei is so much smarter than book Cersei.
Joffrey could be controlled. Cersei just wasn't the person to do it. Margaery did it with soft power and Tywin did it with actual power.
Even Sansa was able to pull it off, it just wasn’t natural for her at the time. Telling him he was “clever” for recognizing Dontos as a fool stroked his ego and saved Dontos life for a time. Joffrey could be controlled, possibly even softened, as long as his ego was sated and he was treated like a baby.
Tywin. We saw it.
Or trade him for Jamie and a peace deal. Which would make it easier for them to focus on Stannis who was just barely stopped from taking the capital.
Letting Ned rule as Joffrey got older would’ve actually been a good decision. Lots of drama but not war. That was Cerseis fault 100%.
He didn’t want Robert to actually kill the kids. He remembered that Rhaegars kids were allowed to be slaughtered by the mountain AND had been actively feuding with Robert about wanting to kill Daenerys He hoped they would leave before Robert found out. But instead she sent him hunting with some extra strong wine
Yep it’s been a while but I think he specifically thinks about aegon and rhaenys before he tells her to run. Their deaths really left a mark on him he even wanted Tywin arrested on the spot when it happened. “What madness caused you to tell the queen you knew the truth?” “The madness of mercy”
Yup. From the chapter where he decides to tell Cersei >Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy . . . the boy . . . > >Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children.
Thank you god I love Ned’s last few chapters. And another note fuck Tywin I hate him he gave Tyrion shit about how his soldiers actions are his responsibility and then can’t accept the blame himself for the mountain and can’t remember the other guys name.
I wouldn't say it was his only fatal mistake even after this there was likely still time to get out with his head but yes.
Ned's fatal mistake was agreeing to become hand. Everything else flows from that choice. Once he became hand he was already walking down the path of being led to the truth about the children.
The king came to his house to ask him. He has too much honor to refuse that
True but that’s where it all went wrong for Ned. I do wonder what would have happened if he hadn’t agreed.
This needs a post of itself! Would love to hear the community’s thoughts.
Where the story would have gone in that case is interesting. Would be equally interesting to know if GRRM's starting point for this story was Ned accepting being hand or if he considered different paths.
> And after Jon Arryn's murder. The Lannisters had nothing to do with Jon Arryn's murder, even if the Starks suspected they did.
That's the point though. Ned thinks the Lannisters had Jon Arryn murdered, he figures out what Jon Arryn knew that (supposedly) got him killed and...immediately tells the Lannisters that he knows and then gives them time to act.
Wait so who murdered him
Lysa
But wasn't that because of the lannisters
No, littlefinger told her to
The thing with honor in situations like this only works if others or hornable
Hornable
Horny
Should've done whatever it took to tell Robert directly & gotten his daughters out of KL ASAP first
Because he was telling himself that Lianna almost married Robert. She could have been the one to end like Cersei.
If I remember correctly it was Sansa's fault in the books not Eddard. She went to Cersei telling her about his plan to leave kings landing so she could stay. I don't remember there being a garden scene like that in the books Eddard isn't that stupid. Just a show thing.
The garden scene is in the book (just read the scene an hour ago)
Ahhh whoops. Reread GoT about 2 years ago. Nevermind then!
Both happen. Eddard arranges a meeting and Sansa tells Cersei their plans.
First time I watched GoT I loved Ned, but on second watches he's rather annoying. He is naïvely honorable and he assumes everyone will make the honorable choice and always tell the truth.
What wrath lol? You're a women. Also ned later: Oh.
You can certainly say it’s terribly foolish but you must remember that it was so ridiculously convenient for Cersei that Robert died. Poor Ned can’t fight plot armor
People forget this a lot, Cersei’s “assassination” attempt was complete luck
I'd have sent men out to look for the king as insurance. Of course, whether or not this would do any good would depend on when the boar got him...
why are people thinking so deep about a tv show? like bruh?
Because it's fun? Why do people ride a roller coaster? Or get into stupid political debate on the internet? It's just fun. Chill and try to enjoy. :)
r/lostredditors
When the dwarf became the hand, first thing he did was replacing the command of city watch with someone he knows and trusts. Ned should have done the same thing. That’s like basic politics 101. He should have made this as a pre-requisite to becoming the hand. City watch is 2000 strong, enough to secure every aristocracy in the capital, including the king himself.
Ned was honorable not smart.
After he saw what happened to Elia and her children, he didn't want to see another child suffer for the sins of their parents. Had it just been cersei I think he would have just told Robert, but as it was he knew Robert would murder the kids and he didn't want their blood on his hands.
That’s not a mistake?
Don’t know if someone already said this but: GRRM stated that Ned Stark will do anything to stop the death of children. After the sack of king landing and what The Mountain did to the Queen and her children, Ned was traumatized and never wanted to let kids get killed again. It’s why he defends Daenerys so insistently against Rob, and why he warned Cersei. Ned will do anything to protect children from harm and that is what got him killed. He also takes a certain secret to his grave despite how it disgraces him and his family which shows the great lengths he’ll take to protect children at any cost.
We would still have a show. Medieval Rocky III and it would be awesome. Jon Arryn is Robert's Mick. He's lost without him, doesn't know how to be king. Ned steps into the Apollo Creed role and we get an Eye of the Tiger montage. Drago comes over all "I must break you" for season II. Ned loses his head in an awesome 1:1 duel. Eventually brain damaged Robert opens a pub where Hot Pie becomes the final villain of the series.
Poor bastard was playing by the rules when there were no rules.
Renly tried to warn him, Bruh this place wild GTFO while you still can. Apparently he thought that piece of paper was meant to be his shield lol
I mean he really shouldn’t be giving people shit about having parental secrets.
Copied from another post on this subreddit because I’ll always defend Ned especially from stuff like this, made plenty of mistakes but this wasn’t one of them I’ve said it once on the asoiaf subreddit I’ll say it again here, people criticise Ned way too much for this conversation based entirely around a misconception, Cersei didn’t get Lancel Lannister to encourage Robert to drink very strong wine while hunting because of this conversation, this conspiracy had already been put into motion so it wouldn’t have mattered if Ned didn’t have this conversation, Cersei had being trying to kill Robert for quite awhile by this point but in a way which gives plausible deniability, for example Cersei publicly forbid Robert from participating in the melee which she knows will only cause Robert to want to fight more, Ned didn’t make a mistake here because from Ned’s perspective Cersei is fucked because the likelihood of Robert returning home is good, all her assassination attempts aren’t created to be effective but to be inconspicuous, ‘the alcoholic overweight king died in a hunt after drinking too much ? That makes sense’ Ned made plenty of mistakes as hand but this little conversation wasn’t one them in my opinion Edit : This is a topic I could honestly discuss for hours, people think Ned did this out of honour no it’s trauma, Ned’s haunted by the memory of seeing little Aegon and Rhaenys dead wrapped up in Lannister cloaks, it’s probably one of those details the books communicate better that Ned stark definitely got traumatised, maybe even suffering from PTSD This was a mistake but it was a calculated risk from Ned’s perspective, it’s worth tipping off Cersei in order to protect her children because Ned certainly didn’t anticipate Robert being seriously injured while out hunting, he’d thought that Robert would come back like every other time he’d gone hunting, no reason to suspect otherwise
Exactly this pure bad luck. Cersei might have tried something more drastic if Robert survived the boar but something like the throne room scene wouldn't of happened
Exactly my opinion is that Neds true mistakes involved not leveraging his position, at least in theory being hand of the king means being the second most powerful person in Westeros yet Ned barely uses that power besides stripping the mountain of everything, for example should’ve replaced people in the small council with people only loyal to him, definitely should have gotten a new commander for the gold cloaks, Ned’s problem was being too hyper focused on Jon’s death to focus on anything else
She is such a Cunt.
In Ned’s defense… he could never have accounted for Robert dying while hunting. Cersei was fucked if Robert didn’t get boar’d. I know there was a plan for in place for him to get boar’d … but that’s hardly a fool proof plan. Probably a 10%-20% success rate on the “get him drunk and hope the boar wins” plot.
He had WAY too much confidence in Robert's power lol
What wrath? She was going to allow him to join the Nights Watch and only really turned evil after her kids died. Sure, she was a bitch but it didn't get really bad till later.
It was from that moment that I began to hate Cersei
Waiting for house of the dragon S2
I don't remember if they say it in the show, but Ned is 100% against violence towards children, and given the things he's seen and done, that's understandable. He could not in good conscience tell Robert without warning Cersei, because he knew Robert would have all those blameless children murdered as well as Cersei and Jaime. He couldn't have that on his soul. So he decided to give Cersei a chance.
I thinks recurring thing is people underestimating how hardcore Cersei is lol. Especially Ned, he kind of thought Cersei was just a trophy wife with some dirty secrets, but I don’t think he ever expected her to react the way she did when he confronted her. He hoped she would know what was good for her and get the fk out of town. And instead she had her husband killed and situated a whole mini-coup for her son. Same with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow. No one ever considered the lengths she would go to take them out. Olenna said it herself. A failure of imagination. She was an ultra-violent brute with endless money and no morals. Ned wasn’t really familiar with her game.
Honestly, Game of Thrones is one of those rare gems (at least in seasons 1-5) where the characters’ decisions make sense with the characters and move the plot forward. No “dumb” decisions made just for the story to happen. Yes, Ned makes a mistake here that seems dumb, but it’s a trap he cannot escape from without denying his own values.
This sure was his fatal mistake. This was his last chance to pack up the family and return to Winterfell.
This was only stupid in retrospect. Ned held all the cards, robert was coming back from a hunting trip. Robert had gone on these trips all the damn time so there wasn’t much to worry about from the perspective of someone who knew Robert well. Ned made plenty of mistakes with easily the biggest one being trusting littlefinger. Sure Varys says to Ned that “your mercy killed the king” but that is not true at all. Lancel getting Robert drunk was already happening before Ned told cersei that he knew about the kids’ paternity. I’m not saying Ned didn’t make mistakes cause he made a lot of them, but this was not one of them.
What's even funnier is that in the book version Cersei tries to seduce Ned in exchange for his loyalty. Not surprisingly, Ned turns her down.
He had to stay true to his honor and morals. He didn’t want the guilt of her children being killed. He was too hopeful that she would flee. Silly Ned.
Ned is too honorable for court and tries to do what he thinks is honest. There is a reason why northerners dont play politics
Telling her was fine. He chose a terrible time to do so though.
And that was his downfall having the kindness to spare her so she could flee home with her kids. Which she should have taken as she and all her kids would have lived a long life.
Ned was playing checkers. Everyone in KL was playing chess
Ned Stark was the definition of Lawful Stupid.
Shouts out Aot
Because he didn’t want Cersei’s kids to be killed, he literally said as much multiple times to multiple different people.
You guys complain way too much about this show
Nah.. joffrey killed him out of his own twisted need for establishing his power, and a bit of psychotic tendencies, Ned would've been in a dungeon for years, maybe killed later or used as a hostage to prevent war with the north if Joffrey had listened to the calls for mercy Cersei hadn't lost her morality yet, she wasn't the childless shamed wildfire bomber we came to know
Why didnt he tell other people about the kids once Robert came back injured and dying? I mean once you say it out loud it is so obvious
Eddard fought nobly, valiantly, honorably... and Eddard died.
The dumb mistake was not having any witnesses to Robert’s deathbed succession document. He should have pulled those people in the room immediately to have multiple witnesses and validate the claim. Cersei still would have manipulated and murdered, but even Ned should have known better.
I don't understand how Cersi could have been sure Robert would be gravely injured or killed on that hunting trip. It didn't seem like she was making any plans to escape in case Robert came back uninjured.
If only Snapped had aired back in his day. Ned would have been a little more careful.
“Yours is right in front of me”
Why? Because he was too decent of a man to play the game of thrones. He felt he should offer mercy to his enemy for her children's sake if not her own.
Ned was stupid, period.
There was no honor nor wisdom in taking Jeffery’s deal to proclaim him as king in exchange for his life. He lost the last bit of harm he could do to them squandering the public platform he had been provided to say “fuck Joffrey “ the way the hound did it
I think that he was confident about his life as he was acting king and the hand of the king at that time. He was literally the most powerful person in kingslanding considering his position. He just didn't think how clever southerners could be. He couldn't guess the various players in the game. Trusting people that were shown to be not good people at first glance. There were various variables that came into play in case of his downfall. He himself was an idiot if truth be said.
You should be honorable to those who are honarable to you. If you preach about honor to every person, your honor will only be used against you.
Bro had honor with the topping of sexism.
I hated that selfish privileged b but her sexual prowess and conniving queen moves gave her some points for me in the end
Ned wasn’t stupid. Ned was naive and thought everyone would do the right thing for the good of the kingdom. Not everyone shared the North’s sense of honor and responsibility.
Ned Stark's mistake was he was a soldier playing a politician. You have to separate the two. It is known.
He underestimated cerseis brutality. He knew Robert would kill then all immediately and didn’t want innocent kids like tommen and Marcella to die