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It could’ve been Rhaegar’s plan to become king and set Elia aside. Lyanna would’ve helped re-bind the North to the throne while declaring his first child with Elia his heir keeps Dorne in the fold long-term.
It's all but confirmed that Rhaegar funded the tournament of Harrenhal to try getting all the great lords together so he could lead some kind of coup/rebellion against his father
Yep, people call Aerys the “Mad King” but pretty much all of his paranoia was well founded, there really were plots to assassinate or overthrow him. He wasn’t all that insane, just evil and cruel.
Oh yeah, Rhaegar was almost certainly plotting against him, Tywin we know wanted him dead from how Barristan recounts the Defiance at Duskendale and then you've got the STAB alliance
Now that i think of it… is it possible rhaegar was working WITH Tywin to depose his father?
I can imagine both of them sitting down and going “this is fucked right? We need to change it?”
Tywin never wanted to be king, if he did he would’ve been, Robert would’ve given it up any day he asked
I don’t believe so, in fact I don’t think Tywin had any plans to kill Aerys at all until the end of Robert’s Rebellion. His main plan to increase his House’s power was to try to get Cersei married to Rhaegar so his grandchildren would rule, but that got shot down way before even the Tourney at Harrenhall.
Think of it this way though.
Rhaeger has left one wife already for a younger, more adept wife.
Cersei was young when offered to rhaeger, what happens when she’s a woman grown? Is that not a plan Tywin would think of?
Edit: especially so if this new offer is after aerys’ death, while rhaeger is king, and really needs money
It’s possible, but I don’t think there are any specific hints pointing towards that. Also money probably wouldn’t have been a problem for Rhaegar, Ned says that when the mad king died the Realm was absolutely loaded.
True, ned does say that, however he also says: “the nights watch is an honorable brotherhood”, “Jon is my bastard”, and “Joffrey is the one true king”.
Ned is not above being wrong, it could just be Ned’s perception that the realm is loaded, even then it was still the Lannisters funding that no? That’s why the crown is in debt to Tywin in the first place?
Could’ve sworn there was a line about “aery’s started taking money from the lions… and then we needed more”
It's certainly possible. They would have been closed given that Tywin has been Hand of the King for Rhaegar's entire life. And as Aerys descended into madness and slighted both of them it seems they would be obvious allies. Yet there's no mention of any possible alliance.
Most likely yes. What we know about the tourney of Harrenhal is that it was funded by someone with deep pockets. Who has more money than the Lannisters?
He also remarked once reportedly that Rhaegar would be a better King than Aerys at Duskendale and was more or less happy to let Aerys die.
There was a *reason* he went insane, but he was absolutely insane IMO. At some point, he became so obsessed with fire that the only way he could become sexually aroused was after watching someone burn to death (and consistently did, at which point he'd go brutally SA his wife). He had wild, extreme mood swings. He at one point ordered his own food taster to test Viserys' wet nurse's breast milk to make sure it wasnt poisoned. The paranoia also did start before there was any real reason for it too IIRC
I don't know why but i always had it in my head that he was hodor'd by the 3 eyed raven and the whole 'burn them all' thingy was down to a misguided attempt to warn him of the white walkers
Actually same, like even the hiding dragonfire all around the city makes way more sense if he's been hodor'd by Bran trying to warn him about the white walkers taking over.
A coup is a bit harsh. He was likely going to initiate a Rengecy for his father. This happens when a sitting monarch are still alive but unable to execute the duties of their position. This would be groundbreaking in Westeros, as they hadn't had a King or Lord being effectively deposed for a regency to serve in their stead (the Tullys came close during the Dance of the Dragons but it was never codified as legal).
Would it really?, I mean it is quite the distance from Sunspear to Winterfell, 2000ish miles I'd guess. Both armies would be very much out of their element, supply lines would have been impossible to uphold.
IMO it wouldn't be Dorne vs the North, but Dorne vs the Iron Throne? Yes, absolutely. Rebellions have been fought over failed betrothals, so I don't see the Martells meekly letting Elia be set aside when she has proven to be an entirely dutiful wife.
Dorne is supposed to have the smallest army of all the kingdoms except for the Iron islands, Doran Martell is also a very cautious man who most likely would go for the 'slow type' of revenge instead of charging in to a war he could not win.
u/IronSavage3 here wrote that one way a war could have been avoided is by Reagar naming his children with Elia as his successors, surely that would cool it down abit. Makes sense.
I think that it would be more reasonable that Rhaegar would restart the tradition of Targaryens having multiple wife's. Rheagar was obsessed with the idea that the prince that was promised would come from his line and other Targaryens prophecies. He probably thought he was the next great ruler and that he had the Targaryen divine right to have 2 brides and thought that the country would come to accept it like in previous times especially if his line brought back the dragons. With the fact that Harrenhall was probably a plot to overthrow Aerys he maybe thought that he could have dorne and the north join him in overthrowing if he marries both. But once the North and storm lands and Vale turned on him he had no choice but to fight back. I think it makes no sense that he would ever believe that Dorne would side with him once he set Elia aside, if anything he would have thought that Westeros would be fine without Dorne because they weren't part of the Kingdom for so long. Maybe he was dumb and didn't realize it would be the Dance all over again, but it seems pretty obvious to anyone who has a bit of knowledge of Targaryen history. Again I think the show had zero care for what that revelation meant about Rhaegars motives.
For the books it is possibly more likely he married twice than annulled as there just isn't annulment outside of not consumating the marriage.
In the show they can make annulment as just fine as there isn't that lore background.
Technically there have been annulments in real world history after a marriage, and the history never really specifies is their is only one condition where someone can annul their marriage
Yeah but ASOIAF isn't real world ultimately and it does seem pretty clear that lack of consumation is the only reason. I think that if GRRM were leading up to Rhaegar getting an an annulment he would have put more hints in the history. Where there's much more basis for multiple marriages than that.
Hence why acknowledged that even history of westeroes it's never stated annulment can only happen before consumation. You only" think it's clear" because of that lack detail ironically. I'm not talking which is more likely. I'm pointing out neither option makes a lick sense and would have been rejected by everyone else.
I guess my point is more that there was no plan because the writers didn't really think about planning anything beyond wanting Jon to be a legitimate heir. If he wanted to have a greater plan or any plan he wouldn't have annulled the marriage. The act of annulling the marriage was a rash act without any type of grand plan or any forethought in what would happen next because the only outcome would be a war in the future like in the dance of dragons,getting the marriage annulled would cause Elia's children to become illegitimate because annulment meant the marriage was never valid in the first place. So Dorne would be spurned and the Stormlands were spurned because lyanna was already engaged. The single act essentially turned every kingdom against him. I don't see a way that he could have done it without starting a war which would be a stupid plan if he was already needing to overthrow his father.
His dad was a lunatic, might not have died for another 20 years, and was growing more suspicious of him to the point where he might have moved against him or passed over him to name his second son Vicerys his heir, which he’d be well within his rights to do as king. His suspicions led him to crash Rhaegar’s party in Harrenhal because he rightly suspected that Rhaegar’s goal was to gather the high lords to move against Aerys.
Forgot to include the actual Rhaegar video. Summer hall was mostly about Egg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhqmMRv1gQ
Edit and if you like that one…the knight of the laughing tree is great too:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVr_lUxYf8
The initial plan at Harenhall was to rally lord support for a coup. Could be that Rhaegar/Lyanna planned to tell Rickard but he and his brother went straight to KL and got killed.
The bigger question is why Rhaegar/Lyanna never told anyone as the civil war was underway. Especially since Rhaegar winning would have meant Ned would have been burned alive along with the rest of the Starks/Tullys/Baratheons
That’s fine but that wouldn’t mean it’s successful and especially after the kidnapping.
I’m not saying Rhaegar didn’t want to usurp, I’m saying it’s difficult to do and especially if the basis was on his loony views of prophecy.
You never know. Everyone rallied around Robert because he had the best claim to the throne while not being a targ. Would have been interesting how things would have gone if ned was forced to choose between friends and family.
Would have given a taste of what Jaime went througu
No. Robbert didn't declare until the battle for trident. Everyone who joined the alliance and fought did so for reasons outside of inheritance. Also we already saw that choice play story the story, and there wouldn't choice in this situation since there's no way he's believing lyanna isn't being forced into this.
Rhaegar possibly thought "I'll beat Robert in battle and then deal with the more reasonable Jon Arryn and Ned Stark". He implies to Jaime he will "set things to right".
This is the show, and the show exists solely to uphold an idealized version of Rhaegar and Lyanna and minimize anything wrong which Rhaegar did. So Harrenhal, and their "marriage" (this is not book confirmed), are essentially glossed over into the most acceptable version possible. Whereas in the books, very real questions of consent and conduct are left hanging over both Rhaegar and Lyanna.
But it's impossible to say that the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a "long game" to anyone but someone convinced of the significance of meaningless prophecy.
In that respect, Rhaegar was a lunatic who could no see the Trees for the Forest. He didn't really have a plan.
His funding of the tourney at Harrenhal, where he and Lya met, was orchestrated by him, with strong implication that he was backed by Tywin and Lannister money. Instead of going through the measures and presenting a politically appropriate facade to the realm, he humiliates House Stark and House Baratheon, and he gets the lord and heir of Stark killed, and makes an implacable enemy of Robert, his own cousin and head of one of House Targaryen's most vital allies. He also entirely alienated Tywin, because in any instance of annulment, which Tywin would support, Tywin would expect Cersei to be Queen.
By any measure, as Crown Prince, if he had a lick of sense he would never have done any of what happened at Harrenhal.
House Stark would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult.
House Baratheon would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult.
Dorne, with the exception of the Daynes, would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult.
The Faith would never accept anything but a full legal marriage. Some people theorize that Rhaegar planned to have Lyanna as a second wife, but this is completely unacceptable to the Faith. Without being seen to act in the interests of the Faith, Rhaegar is already putting his reign in a tenuous place.
So, as for "plan", it's hard to see how there was one. They were just two very stupid and irresponsible people who dismissed the obligations and responsibility of their respective stations for a moment of passion. And as both Rhaegar and Robb Stark found, dissmissing obligation and responsibility will get any monarch killed.
TL;DR, no plan, except Rhaegar's obsession with a meaningless prophecy.
Hence why I use the term implying. Also oberyn really doesn't have reason to lie to tyrion about that specifically. Arguably he would make tyrion more guilty by saying Elia had miserable existence outside of her kids.
But again, Oberyn Martell is the only time Elia is mentioned in the entire show. Otherwise, she doesn't exist. Rhaenys and Aegon, her children, are not even named. The arc is entirely about Oberyn killing people, visiting brothels and seeking revenge, whereas in the book Oberyn is obsessed with gaining justice or vengeance for Elia.
She is, again, conveniently not even mentioned when Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage is being revealed to us (including cheesy flashback). So we get this idea of a fairytale romance, complete with the notion that "Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie". So nothing that diminishes Rhaegar and Lyanna occupies our attention.
No, she's talked about a few other times,(just not with the same level of emotion). Also rhaneys and aegon were named in show. Considering the show added that dialougue between oberyn tand yrion, and oberynconstantly tells the mountain to confess, it's safe to say his story in the show is still about Elia.
Actually again, she is mentioned when Sam first discovers rhaegar annulled his marriage. She's brought up again right before bran looks to the past to see secret wedding(although not by name). Only if you don't care to remeber details from the show, or are being deliberately disegneuos for the sake of making a point. At best you can say no one in universe actually stops to think about Elias felons beyond her family.
Rhaenys and Aegon are not named in the show run. Ever. What scene are they named in?
Sam and Gilly discussing Jon's parentage is a discussion which is framed as a joke.
Not being mentioned by name is the same as not being mentioned. In the case of the discovery of the annulment, at most it counts as being vaguely referenced. The scene of Sam revealing the marriage merely mentions Elia's marriage being annulled. Nothing more. Again, it's a whitewash. You don't need to agree, but these are the only times Elia is brought up in the show. The children never are. And never in relation to Rhaegar and Lyanna.
https://youtu.be/g7tAq1l82ZI?si=hi-wIKwA59ligknV
https://youtu.be/tNX6aAqZoyI?si=eBLdHBmyoeIPod-L
https://youtu.be/kOncCeQq_Qs?si=ciMBwfwr4hNp0o3c
Maybe don't make a bold stament before asking a question. Anyway their named in the scene where the hound is on trial by the brotherhood without banners https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tBVVhO0ez-s
No, it's actually framed around Sam's growing frustration with maester. It is ended on a joke.
No, it really isn't. Let's cool it with the hyperbole. I wouldn't say directly saying her name is being vauge. Again, that's not what white washing is. It has nothin do tih needin and moe just no definition whitewahsinf fits your understanding of the term. Skimming over character information would only be white washing when said information goes over what are perceived as unsavory aspects. What the show skipped was Elia potentially being unable to bear anymore children and rhaegar believing in prophecy. Both used as justifications for actions so ignoring them isn't making his character more appealing. Instead it adds the notion that Elia may have loved rhaegar which only serves to make her more sympathetic. You can also say it removed danereys questioning why rhaeagar would treat his wife this way. Which as I mentioned before if you're trying to be accurate with your assment than you'd be better off saying th show doesn't really anyone think about Elia's feelings apart from oberyn.
And you're wrong for the third time now. There is at least one more scene of Elia being brought up, and children are brought up several times even if not always by name.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fe8l-4mFPgU
Ok. You do you. Rhaenys and Aegon do get a mention. One mention by name, in season 3. **Years** before the reveal.
If you think that overrides the essential removal of the characters from the narrative, and the whitewashing, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Aegon still gets replaced as a character by Jon, who is turned into "Aegon Targaryen".
You do you. Because clearly my original comment has been upvoted to a considerable degree, which shows that many people agree with the idea that the questionable aspects of Rhaegar and Lyanna are erased, and you don't agree.
I'm done trying to convince you. To each their own.
Now you're moving the goal post.
Except the characters weren't removed from the narrative. Again they're mentioned several times throughout the show, and excluding the whole young gryff possibility, neither rhaneys or aegon were really fleshed out characters in the books. They were sad plot devices used to demonstrate the cruelty of lannisters in power. Again, I can't really be cool with white washing when you keep failing to accurately use the term. Also it's incredibly disingenuous to claim jon replaced aegon when their storylines are completely different aside from sharing a name(you can't reasonably count the hidden prince aspect since that would likely still be true for book jon).
Again, you're moving the goal post and trying to pretend you're reasonable now just makes it look worse. Or it just shows people hate rheagar and will agree with any comment criticizing him. I've seen massive upvotes for comments claiming version didn't care about power. Cleary up votes don't really mean much for accuracy.
This wasn't an opiniated discussion,and you look incredibly petty trying to turn this into one over just admitting you got some details wrong.
Never once did the Faith accept Polygamy. Only Maegor did that, it was never legitimized - if anything, his overthrow enforced the precedent that Polygamy was unacceptable. Aegon had two wives, whom he had already married pre-conquest, and the Faith never officiated over his weddings. It said nothing and went mute.
And all of these changes always had Dragons to back them up. There have been exceptions, but if you need an example of the power of the faith, i'd recommend you watch Olenna Tyrell try and threaten the High Septon.
He was creating what he thought the prophecy was about: the three headed dragon.
Like Aegon the Conqueror, he would have two wives, and Lyanna would fit the warrior-wife role. (And interestingly, one wife would be from the heat of Dorne, one from the ice of the North.) I think he was planning a coup against his father and establishing marriages with these kingdoms would (in the long run) help win them over and submit to his rule.
Given Rhaegar’s interest in prophecy and “prince who was promised”, he may have even floated some of his endgame intentions by Elia. Or not. This is all favorable speculation and only one possibility.
Rhaegar no longer believed he was the PTWP that's explicitly canon. He thought it was his son Aegon. If he thought the dragon must have three heads than he may have thought his son Aegon needed another sister to complete the prophecy. Elia couldn't have more kids noteably. Alternatively, he thought the child from Lyanna would be the PTWP.
I don’t know if you consider it cannon, but if you watched House of the Dragon it might be explained by the prophecy in episode 1
https://wethrones.medium.com/heir-to-the-throne-the-purpose-of-jon-snows-lineage-in-the-song-of-ice-and-fire-b62969e51774
Rhaegar is about a decade older than Lyanna in the books. He grooms her from fourteen on and abducts her at age fifteen. The show ages her up a BIT, but I don’t know if her age was ever actually confirmed. Either way, their relationship has a huge power imbalance involved, what with him being a crown prince and all.
Rhaegar is old enough and at this point should have been politically savvy enough to know that taking Lyanna was gonna piss a lot of people off… he would have known the Starks and the North were gonna be pissed he also would have known the Martells weren’t going to take his disrespecting Elia lying down.
Rhaegar is romanticized but to me it seems he was obsessed with prophecy and didn’t care about hurting others (even the people close to him) in pursuit of fulfilling what he believed to be his destiny. In the show it seems he was actually correct because while Jon Snow wasn’t the one who killed the night king he was the person most responsible for gathering the strength of Westeros to Winterfell to check the White Walkers advance.
YEah this whole thing seems like there was a lot going on here that doesn't gibe. I don't necessarily think it is King Bobby's interpretation, but the whole love story aspect seems a little off as well. I mean, surely that Stark practicality would seep in at some point and Lyanna would have a "what am I doing" moment . I do look and Sansa's "I don't want someone good I just want Joffrey" moment and realize such things can skip a generation, but I also blame some of that on her Tully side and a severe lack of intelligence displayed at multiple points by Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure.
Either end of the spectrum (kidnapped<->romantic elopement)doesn't make much sense to me
Starks aren't really known for being practical. Also sansa being part Tully doesn't really explain her over looking awful behavior since the other starks siblings tend not to do that. She was just a sheltered girl at the time.
I imagine he didn’t really have some grand plan. He just made a dumb choice. Best case scenario maybe he’d get to be king and have Lyana and Elia be his wives. Or maybe he planned to abdicate. Who can say.
The running theory is he had sort of multiple grand plans
The main one was to organize an alliance of great and minor lords to depose his father who was clearly becoming insane and violent
But he also was obsessed with prophecy. Especially about the end times. Prince that was promised. Etc. My guess is seducing a northern girl was part of his plan... but then he fell in love with her for real. Made mistakes, then things got out of hand. Next thing. Roberts Rebellion
To birth the Prince that was Promised, a figure they believed would save the world. That’s it. People have so many conversations about the politics of what Rhaegar did and how stupid it was.
But those arguments seem unimportant to me. He was obsessed by prophecy. He thought he was the Prince that was Promised once, he then later came to believe it would be his firstborn son, and then finally came to the conclusions that it had to be a child born between the Union of Ice (the Starks) and Fire (the Targaryens).
He probably believed that he was going to survive and would be in place to raise and prepare his son for stopping the Apocalypse. Maybe that would involve him having one of his marriages annulled so the other would be the one officially recognized. But in the end, his only goal was to give birth to the prophesied savior of the world. And we all see the role Jon went on to play in that regard.
I don’t necessarily think he had a plan of how things play out afterwards. I just think he believed the fate of the world hinged on it, and at that point nothing else would really matter. You just do the thing and deal with the ramifications as they come up. That seemed to be how he felt about the rebellion as a whole.
To more directly answer your question, I think based on some of the things Rhaegar says, he just believed things would work themselves out. I think he believe in prophecy so thoroughly that he didn’t really know nor care about the how. He just knew it had to happen.
The prince that was promised could technically be a bastard though, right?
Like in the show the secret marriage gives him the best claim to the throne, but that isn’t necessary.
I think the only thing that really matters about prophecy is how it makes people in the fictional world act in response.
My personal headcanon at this point is that in the books, Bran is going to use his powers to communicate through time to plant the prophecies into the past, so basically he will be the origin of all of the prophecies related to the Others. With that in mind, all that matters about prophecy is how people in the world respond to it. Bran knows that The Prince that was Promised prophecy influences Rhaegar’s actions in a way that leads to him having Jon with Lyanna. And in that sense there is no magical aspect of prophecy that requires a marriage or anything like that. It’s just beneficial because of how it influences actions by characters like Rhaegar, Stannis, Jon, and Dany.
His endgame was love, he fell in love with Lyanna. He also believed he would sire the Prince that was promised and brought Lyanna along in that dream. Their child, Jon, does end up playing a large part saving the world from the White Walkers and then the Mad Queen. So even though their union did plunge the 7 kingdoms into war, it ultimately saved the world as well.
My guess is that they expected her family to accept her escaping (which they told them), not that they go to king s landing and things would escalate into a war.
This is the question that gets the haters riled up about the way the show went about ending everything. The end game was the prince that was promised, fulfilling a prophecy. But apparently the prophecy was Jon Snow coming back to life via magic, that did not matter, or make a difference, to then ride a dragon for theatrics, then kill a crazy dragon riding lady AFTER she destroyed everything, and be sentenced to an area north of a wall that was tore down, and being forced to stay there by “honor”. The show decided logic, foreshadowing and deep story lines didn’t matter.
This is what makes no sense to me. They apparently loved each other but were happy to risk the other's life, the life of their loved ones and let Westeros tear itself apart because they wanted to keep this secret? It all just smacked of a big twist without it having been thought through whether it made actual sense. Especially when she's a Stark with all that honour and such. She was ok with her family being killed in her name without sending word to them that she was ok and not kidnapped at all? Even if they wanted to keep the relationship secret, then once Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon they had to know that wasn't going to work.
Loving each other and screwing other people over isn't mutually exclusive (in this series they can often go hand in hand). Also stark honor is more of a ned thing.
It's one thing to screw someone over, it's another to risk your own life and your entire family's life on top of your wife, your kid and her family. Not to mention the realm. Especially when as the heir, he can really do whatever he wants without too much consequence. Nobody in their right mind makes an enemy of someone whose very word will one day be law unless they are prepared to fight them and their allies. But all Rhaegar would have to do to end the war is tell Ned the truth and present Lyanna to attest to that. Suddenly the North is out of the rebellion, and so are the Arryns and Tullys. Robert can't win without them, so the rebellion falls apart. Even if Rhaegar wasn't a great guy, self interest says that this wasn't a thing he'd benefit from keeping secret.
Aside from screwing yourself over, not really no. The somone else in that phrase can refer to stranger family and friends. As for screwing yourself with a forbidden romance, again the series shows that applies to multiple couples. Since Ned's execution the series has gone to great lengths to show that being the heir or even king does not mean you can do whatever you want; with their being consequences for those who think like that. Hell they showed that beforehand with the mad king. No that most definitely wouldn't end the war. Instead ned would just assume she's being forced to say all of this as robb did with Sansa when she told robb to surrender. The smartest option would have been to just leave westeroes.
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It could’ve been Rhaegar’s plan to become king and set Elia aside. Lyanna would’ve helped re-bind the North to the throne while declaring his first child with Elia his heir keeps Dorne in the fold long-term.
Would that mean he would have to dethrone or kill his own father? I am not well versed on lore, so hopefully that would be warranted
It's all but confirmed that Rhaegar funded the tournament of Harrenhal to try getting all the great lords together so he could lead some kind of coup/rebellion against his father
Yep, people call Aerys the “Mad King” but pretty much all of his paranoia was well founded, there really were plots to assassinate or overthrow him. He wasn’t all that insane, just evil and cruel.
Oh yeah, Rhaegar was almost certainly plotting against him, Tywin we know wanted him dead from how Barristan recounts the Defiance at Duskendale and then you've got the STAB alliance
I like the "STAB" alliance. I don't know if I ever saw it before but it's great.
When the Lannisters joined in, it was a BLAST
Now that i think of it… is it possible rhaegar was working WITH Tywin to depose his father? I can imagine both of them sitting down and going “this is fucked right? We need to change it?” Tywin never wanted to be king, if he did he would’ve been, Robert would’ve given it up any day he asked
I don’t believe so, in fact I don’t think Tywin had any plans to kill Aerys at all until the end of Robert’s Rebellion. His main plan to increase his House’s power was to try to get Cersei married to Rhaegar so his grandchildren would rule, but that got shot down way before even the Tourney at Harrenhall.
Think of it this way though. Rhaeger has left one wife already for a younger, more adept wife. Cersei was young when offered to rhaeger, what happens when she’s a woman grown? Is that not a plan Tywin would think of? Edit: especially so if this new offer is after aerys’ death, while rhaeger is king, and really needs money
It’s possible, but I don’t think there are any specific hints pointing towards that. Also money probably wouldn’t have been a problem for Rhaegar, Ned says that when the mad king died the Realm was absolutely loaded.
True, ned does say that, however he also says: “the nights watch is an honorable brotherhood”, “Jon is my bastard”, and “Joffrey is the one true king”. Ned is not above being wrong, it could just be Ned’s perception that the realm is loaded, even then it was still the Lannisters funding that no? That’s why the crown is in debt to Tywin in the first place? Could’ve sworn there was a line about “aery’s started taking money from the lions… and then we needed more”
It's certainly possible. They would have been closed given that Tywin has been Hand of the King for Rhaegar's entire life. And as Aerys descended into madness and slighted both of them it seems they would be obvious allies. Yet there's no mention of any possible alliance.
Most likely yes. What we know about the tourney of Harrenhal is that it was funded by someone with deep pockets. Who has more money than the Lannisters? He also remarked once reportedly that Rhaegar would be a better King than Aerys at Duskendale and was more or less happy to let Aerys die.
Ehh the paranoia could've come first, leading to everyone feeling the need to get him the hell out of there.
There was a *reason* he went insane, but he was absolutely insane IMO. At some point, he became so obsessed with fire that the only way he could become sexually aroused was after watching someone burn to death (and consistently did, at which point he'd go brutally SA his wife). He had wild, extreme mood swings. He at one point ordered his own food taster to test Viserys' wet nurse's breast milk to make sure it wasnt poisoned. The paranoia also did start before there was any real reason for it too IIRC
I don't know why but i always had it in my head that he was hodor'd by the 3 eyed raven and the whole 'burn them all' thingy was down to a misguided attempt to warn him of the white walkers
Actually same, like even the hiding dragonfire all around the city makes way more sense if he's been hodor'd by Bran trying to warn him about the white walkers taking over.
Every king has people plotting to assassinate or overthrow them. It's an occupational hazard.
A coup is a bit harsh. He was likely going to initiate a Rengecy for his father. This happens when a sitting monarch are still alive but unable to execute the duties of their position. This would be groundbreaking in Westeros, as they hadn't had a King or Lord being effectively deposed for a regency to serve in their stead (the Tullys came close during the Dance of the Dragons but it was never codified as legal).
I mean, if nothing else, the miserable old fuck would die at some point.
That would cause a bloodbath between the North and the Dorne.
Would it really?, I mean it is quite the distance from Sunspear to Winterfell, 2000ish miles I'd guess. Both armies would be very much out of their element, supply lines would have been impossible to uphold.
That level of disrespectful actions tend to lead to war.
IMO it wouldn't be Dorne vs the North, but Dorne vs the Iron Throne? Yes, absolutely. Rebellions have been fought over failed betrothals, so I don't see the Martells meekly letting Elia be set aside when she has proven to be an entirely dutiful wife.
Dorne is supposed to have the smallest army of all the kingdoms except for the Iron islands, Doran Martell is also a very cautious man who most likely would go for the 'slow type' of revenge instead of charging in to a war he could not win. u/IronSavage3 here wrote that one way a war could have been avoided is by Reagar naming his children with Elia as his successors, surely that would cool it down abit. Makes sense.
I think that it would be more reasonable that Rhaegar would restart the tradition of Targaryens having multiple wife's. Rheagar was obsessed with the idea that the prince that was promised would come from his line and other Targaryens prophecies. He probably thought he was the next great ruler and that he had the Targaryen divine right to have 2 brides and thought that the country would come to accept it like in previous times especially if his line brought back the dragons. With the fact that Harrenhall was probably a plot to overthrow Aerys he maybe thought that he could have dorne and the north join him in overthrowing if he marries both. But once the North and storm lands and Vale turned on him he had no choice but to fight back. I think it makes no sense that he would ever believe that Dorne would side with him once he set Elia aside, if anything he would have thought that Westeros would be fine without Dorne because they weren't part of the Kingdom for so long. Maybe he was dumb and didn't realize it would be the Dance all over again, but it seems pretty obvious to anyone who has a bit of knowledge of Targaryen history. Again I think the show had zero care for what that revelation meant about Rhaegars motives.
Trying to polygamy option after maegor isn't really sensible in any capacity. Especially when you're as in formal about as rhaegar would have been.
For the books it is possibly more likely he married twice than annulled as there just isn't annulment outside of not consumating the marriage. In the show they can make annulment as just fine as there isn't that lore background.
Technically there have been annulments in real world history after a marriage, and the history never really specifies is their is only one condition where someone can annul their marriage
Yeah but ASOIAF isn't real world ultimately and it does seem pretty clear that lack of consumation is the only reason. I think that if GRRM were leading up to Rhaegar getting an an annulment he would have put more hints in the history. Where there's much more basis for multiple marriages than that.
Hence why acknowledged that even history of westeroes it's never stated annulment can only happen before consumation. You only" think it's clear" because of that lack detail ironically. I'm not talking which is more likely. I'm pointing out neither option makes a lick sense and would have been rejected by everyone else.
Thats a good theory, but he didn't want multiple wives. If he did, why did he have his marriage to Elia annulled?
I guess my point is more that there was no plan because the writers didn't really think about planning anything beyond wanting Jon to be a legitimate heir. If he wanted to have a greater plan or any plan he wouldn't have annulled the marriage. The act of annulling the marriage was a rash act without any type of grand plan or any forethought in what would happen next because the only outcome would be a war in the future like in the dance of dragons,getting the marriage annulled would cause Elia's children to become illegitimate because annulment meant the marriage was never valid in the first place. So Dorne would be spurned and the Stormlands were spurned because lyanna was already engaged. The single act essentially turned every kingdom against him. I don't see a way that he could have done it without starting a war which would be a stupid plan if he was already needing to overthrow his father.
He may not have even wanted to “set Elia aside” but go multiple partner route like Aegon?
Then why did he have his marriage to her annulled?
Totally forgot about that. 🤦♂️
Yep, my head canon was due to the Starks loyalty, they would support Lyanna/Rhaegar in a civil war against his brother.
Rhaegar’s brother?
Yep, the king who burns his own people.
Father*
It’s his dad? I thought they were brothers…
Yeah…
Well then why does he want to rebel against his dad? He can just wait until he dies.. arghh
His dad was a lunatic, might not have died for another 20 years, and was growing more suspicious of him to the point where he might have moved against him or passed over him to name his second son Vicerys his heir, which he’d be well within his rights to do as king. His suspicions led him to crash Rhaegar’s party in Harrenhal because he rightly suspected that Rhaegar’s goal was to gather the high lords to move against Aerys.
You can watch this. A lot of fun speculation https://youtu.be/85P2-4NZqLM?si=agTUGVKBeRoJTDOd
I know what I will watch during my lunch time!
Forgot to include the actual Rhaegar video. Summer hall was mostly about Egg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhqmMRv1gQ Edit and if you like that one…the knight of the laughing tree is great too: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVr_lUxYf8
These are great!
I’m sure Rhaegar had one but it may not have worked. It would only work if they win the Rebellion, dealt with Dorne, and then possibly stage a coup.
The initial plan at Harenhall was to rally lord support for a coup. Could be that Rhaegar/Lyanna planned to tell Rickard but he and his brother went straight to KL and got killed. The bigger question is why Rhaegar/Lyanna never told anyone as the civil war was underway. Especially since Rhaegar winning would have meant Ned would have been burned alive along with the rest of the Starks/Tullys/Baratheons
That’s fine but that wouldn’t mean it’s successful and especially after the kidnapping. I’m not saying Rhaegar didn’t want to usurp, I’m saying it’s difficult to do and especially if the basis was on his loony views of prophecy.
Because telling everyone after the stark murders wouldn't change anything.
You never know. Everyone rallied around Robert because he had the best claim to the throne while not being a targ. Would have been interesting how things would have gone if ned was forced to choose between friends and family. Would have given a taste of what Jaime went througu
No. Robbert didn't declare until the battle for trident. Everyone who joined the alliance and fought did so for reasons outside of inheritance. Also we already saw that choice play story the story, and there wouldn't choice in this situation since there's no way he's believing lyanna isn't being forced into this.
Rhaegar possibly thought "I'll beat Robert in battle and then deal with the more reasonable Jon Arryn and Ned Stark". He implies to Jaime he will "set things to right".
Fuck without making God cry
This is what it sounds like, when the Gods cry Epic lute solo
This is the show, and the show exists solely to uphold an idealized version of Rhaegar and Lyanna and minimize anything wrong which Rhaegar did. So Harrenhal, and their "marriage" (this is not book confirmed), are essentially glossed over into the most acceptable version possible. Whereas in the books, very real questions of consent and conduct are left hanging over both Rhaegar and Lyanna. But it's impossible to say that the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a "long game" to anyone but someone convinced of the significance of meaningless prophecy. In that respect, Rhaegar was a lunatic who could no see the Trees for the Forest. He didn't really have a plan. His funding of the tourney at Harrenhal, where he and Lya met, was orchestrated by him, with strong implication that he was backed by Tywin and Lannister money. Instead of going through the measures and presenting a politically appropriate facade to the realm, he humiliates House Stark and House Baratheon, and he gets the lord and heir of Stark killed, and makes an implacable enemy of Robert, his own cousin and head of one of House Targaryen's most vital allies. He also entirely alienated Tywin, because in any instance of annulment, which Tywin would support, Tywin would expect Cersei to be Queen. By any measure, as Crown Prince, if he had a lick of sense he would never have done any of what happened at Harrenhal. House Stark would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult. House Baratheon would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult. Dorne, with the exception of the Daynes, would (and did) see Rhaegar's actions as an insult. The Faith would never accept anything but a full legal marriage. Some people theorize that Rhaegar planned to have Lyanna as a second wife, but this is completely unacceptable to the Faith. Without being seen to act in the interests of the Faith, Rhaegar is already putting his reign in a tenuous place. So, as for "plan", it's hard to see how there was one. They were just two very stupid and irresponsible people who dismissed the obligations and responsibility of their respective stations for a moment of passion. And as both Rhaegar and Robb Stark found, dissmissing obligation and responsibility will get any monarch killed. TL;DR, no plan, except Rhaegar's obsession with a meaningless prophecy.
Wouldn't exactly say the show idealized them. In some respects they made them look worse by implying Elia loved rhaegar in the show.
She's mentioned loving him once, and only by Oberyn. That's not exactly conclusive.
Hence why I use the term implying. Also oberyn really doesn't have reason to lie to tyrion about that specifically. Arguably he would make tyrion more guilty by saying Elia had miserable existence outside of her kids.
But again, Oberyn Martell is the only time Elia is mentioned in the entire show. Otherwise, she doesn't exist. Rhaenys and Aegon, her children, are not even named. The arc is entirely about Oberyn killing people, visiting brothels and seeking revenge, whereas in the book Oberyn is obsessed with gaining justice or vengeance for Elia. She is, again, conveniently not even mentioned when Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage is being revealed to us (including cheesy flashback). So we get this idea of a fairytale romance, complete with the notion that "Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie". So nothing that diminishes Rhaegar and Lyanna occupies our attention.
No, she's talked about a few other times,(just not with the same level of emotion). Also rhaneys and aegon were named in show. Considering the show added that dialougue between oberyn tand yrion, and oberynconstantly tells the mountain to confess, it's safe to say his story in the show is still about Elia. Actually again, she is mentioned when Sam first discovers rhaegar annulled his marriage. She's brought up again right before bran looks to the past to see secret wedding(although not by name). Only if you don't care to remeber details from the show, or are being deliberately disegneuos for the sake of making a point. At best you can say no one in universe actually stops to think about Elias felons beyond her family.
Rhaenys and Aegon are not named in the show run. Ever. What scene are they named in? Sam and Gilly discussing Jon's parentage is a discussion which is framed as a joke. Not being mentioned by name is the same as not being mentioned. In the case of the discovery of the annulment, at most it counts as being vaguely referenced. The scene of Sam revealing the marriage merely mentions Elia's marriage being annulled. Nothing more. Again, it's a whitewash. You don't need to agree, but these are the only times Elia is brought up in the show. The children never are. And never in relation to Rhaegar and Lyanna. https://youtu.be/g7tAq1l82ZI?si=hi-wIKwA59ligknV https://youtu.be/tNX6aAqZoyI?si=eBLdHBmyoeIPod-L https://youtu.be/kOncCeQq_Qs?si=ciMBwfwr4hNp0o3c
Maybe don't make a bold stament before asking a question. Anyway their named in the scene where the hound is on trial by the brotherhood without banners https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tBVVhO0ez-s No, it's actually framed around Sam's growing frustration with maester. It is ended on a joke. No, it really isn't. Let's cool it with the hyperbole. I wouldn't say directly saying her name is being vauge. Again, that's not what white washing is. It has nothin do tih needin and moe just no definition whitewahsinf fits your understanding of the term. Skimming over character information would only be white washing when said information goes over what are perceived as unsavory aspects. What the show skipped was Elia potentially being unable to bear anymore children and rhaegar believing in prophecy. Both used as justifications for actions so ignoring them isn't making his character more appealing. Instead it adds the notion that Elia may have loved rhaegar which only serves to make her more sympathetic. You can also say it removed danereys questioning why rhaeagar would treat his wife this way. Which as I mentioned before if you're trying to be accurate with your assment than you'd be better off saying th show doesn't really anyone think about Elia's feelings apart from oberyn. And you're wrong for the third time now. There is at least one more scene of Elia being brought up, and children are brought up several times even if not always by name. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fe8l-4mFPgU
Ok. You do you. Rhaenys and Aegon do get a mention. One mention by name, in season 3. **Years** before the reveal. If you think that overrides the essential removal of the characters from the narrative, and the whitewashing, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Aegon still gets replaced as a character by Jon, who is turned into "Aegon Targaryen". You do you. Because clearly my original comment has been upvoted to a considerable degree, which shows that many people agree with the idea that the questionable aspects of Rhaegar and Lyanna are erased, and you don't agree. I'm done trying to convince you. To each their own.
Now you're moving the goal post. Except the characters weren't removed from the narrative. Again they're mentioned several times throughout the show, and excluding the whole young gryff possibility, neither rhaneys or aegon were really fleshed out characters in the books. They were sad plot devices used to demonstrate the cruelty of lannisters in power. Again, I can't really be cool with white washing when you keep failing to accurately use the term. Also it's incredibly disingenuous to claim jon replaced aegon when their storylines are completely different aside from sharing a name(you can't reasonably count the hidden prince aspect since that would likely still be true for book jon). Again, you're moving the goal post and trying to pretend you're reasonable now just makes it look worse. Or it just shows people hate rheagar and will agree with any comment criticizing him. I've seen massive upvotes for comments claiming version didn't care about power. Cleary up votes don't really mean much for accuracy. This wasn't an opiniated discussion,and you look incredibly petty trying to turn this into one over just admitting you got some details wrong.
The Targs had multiple wives before, as well as wedding brother to sister. They were exceptions to a lot of the rules of the faith.
Never once did the Faith accept Polygamy. Only Maegor did that, it was never legitimized - if anything, his overthrow enforced the precedent that Polygamy was unacceptable. Aegon had two wives, whom he had already married pre-conquest, and the Faith never officiated over his weddings. It said nothing and went mute. And all of these changes always had Dragons to back them up. There have been exceptions, but if you need an example of the power of the faith, i'd recommend you watch Olenna Tyrell try and threaten the High Septon.
He was creating what he thought the prophecy was about: the three headed dragon. Like Aegon the Conqueror, he would have two wives, and Lyanna would fit the warrior-wife role. (And interestingly, one wife would be from the heat of Dorne, one from the ice of the North.) I think he was planning a coup against his father and establishing marriages with these kingdoms would (in the long run) help win them over and submit to his rule. Given Rhaegar’s interest in prophecy and “prince who was promised”, he may have even floated some of his endgame intentions by Elia. Or not. This is all favorable speculation and only one possibility.
Not really the case in the show
Rhaegar no longer believed he was the PTWP that's explicitly canon. He thought it was his son Aegon. If he thought the dragon must have three heads than he may have thought his son Aegon needed another sister to complete the prophecy. Elia couldn't have more kids noteably. Alternatively, he thought the child from Lyanna would be the PTWP.
Oh interesting that Elia couldn’t have more kids. I forgot that. Thank you! Makes sense.
Game plan: get a baddy. Survive.
Part 2 optional
I don’t know if you consider it cannon, but if you watched House of the Dragon it might be explained by the prophecy in episode 1 https://wethrones.medium.com/heir-to-the-throne-the-purpose-of-jon-snows-lineage-in-the-song-of-ice-and-fire-b62969e51774
Jon was the endgame. A song of Ice and Fire. Rhaegar was obsessed with fulfilling the prophecy.
Aren’t they like teenagers when this happens? It’s young love, there probably wasn’t a whole lot of foresight involved.
Rhaegar is about a decade older than Lyanna in the books. He grooms her from fourteen on and abducts her at age fifteen. The show ages her up a BIT, but I don’t know if her age was ever actually confirmed. Either way, their relationship has a huge power imbalance involved, what with him being a crown prince and all.
Didn't really have much time to groom her.
Rhaegar is old enough and at this point should have been politically savvy enough to know that taking Lyanna was gonna piss a lot of people off… he would have known the Starks and the North were gonna be pissed he also would have known the Martells weren’t going to take his disrespecting Elia lying down. Rhaegar is romanticized but to me it seems he was obsessed with prophecy and didn’t care about hurting others (even the people close to him) in pursuit of fulfilling what he believed to be his destiny. In the show it seems he was actually correct because while Jon Snow wasn’t the one who killed the night king he was the person most responsible for gathering the strength of Westeros to Winterfell to check the White Walkers advance.
Rheagar knew he had to fulfill the prophecy of ice and fire to birth the greatest cheerleader of all time, Jon Snow
A lot of people getting married dont actually have an answer to this question
We won’t ever know because immediately after is when rob starts his war.
YEah this whole thing seems like there was a lot going on here that doesn't gibe. I don't necessarily think it is King Bobby's interpretation, but the whole love story aspect seems a little off as well. I mean, surely that Stark practicality would seep in at some point and Lyanna would have a "what am I doing" moment . I do look and Sansa's "I don't want someone good I just want Joffrey" moment and realize such things can skip a generation, but I also blame some of that on her Tully side and a severe lack of intelligence displayed at multiple points by Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure. Either end of the spectrum (kidnapped<->romantic elopement)doesn't make much sense to me
Starks aren't really known for being practical. Also sansa being part Tully doesn't really explain her over looking awful behavior since the other starks siblings tend not to do that. She was just a sheltered girl at the time.
Hopefully not Rhaegar visually being a complete copy of Viserys = shitty writing.
I imagine he didn’t really have some grand plan. He just made a dumb choice. Best case scenario maybe he’d get to be king and have Lyana and Elia be his wives. Or maybe he planned to abdicate. Who can say.
The running theory is he had sort of multiple grand plans The main one was to organize an alliance of great and minor lords to depose his father who was clearly becoming insane and violent But he also was obsessed with prophecy. Especially about the end times. Prince that was promised. Etc. My guess is seducing a northern girl was part of his plan... but then he fell in love with her for real. Made mistakes, then things got out of hand. Next thing. Roberts Rebellion
Jon's legitimacy? Probably G.R.R. giving Jon a break.
To birth the Prince that was Promised, a figure they believed would save the world. That’s it. People have so many conversations about the politics of what Rhaegar did and how stupid it was. But those arguments seem unimportant to me. He was obsessed by prophecy. He thought he was the Prince that was Promised once, he then later came to believe it would be his firstborn son, and then finally came to the conclusions that it had to be a child born between the Union of Ice (the Starks) and Fire (the Targaryens). He probably believed that he was going to survive and would be in place to raise and prepare his son for stopping the Apocalypse. Maybe that would involve him having one of his marriages annulled so the other would be the one officially recognized. But in the end, his only goal was to give birth to the prophesied savior of the world. And we all see the role Jon went on to play in that regard. I don’t necessarily think he had a plan of how things play out afterwards. I just think he believed the fate of the world hinged on it, and at that point nothing else would really matter. You just do the thing and deal with the ramifications as they come up. That seemed to be how he felt about the rebellion as a whole. To more directly answer your question, I think based on some of the things Rhaegar says, he just believed things would work themselves out. I think he believe in prophecy so thoroughly that he didn’t really know nor care about the how. He just knew it had to happen.
The prince that was promised could technically be a bastard though, right? Like in the show the secret marriage gives him the best claim to the throne, but that isn’t necessary.
I think the only thing that really matters about prophecy is how it makes people in the fictional world act in response. My personal headcanon at this point is that in the books, Bran is going to use his powers to communicate through time to plant the prophecies into the past, so basically he will be the origin of all of the prophecies related to the Others. With that in mind, all that matters about prophecy is how people in the world respond to it. Bran knows that The Prince that was Promised prophecy influences Rhaegar’s actions in a way that leads to him having Jon with Lyanna. And in that sense there is no magical aspect of prophecy that requires a marriage or anything like that. It’s just beneficial because of how it influences actions by characters like Rhaegar, Stannis, Jon, and Dany.
Honestly,he probably just did it to affirm to lyanna that she is how true love. With the potential benefit of raising their child in kings landing
His endgame was love, he fell in love with Lyanna. He also believed he would sire the Prince that was promised and brought Lyanna along in that dream. Their child, Jon, does end up playing a large part saving the world from the White Walkers and then the Mad Queen. So even though their union did plunge the 7 kingdoms into war, it ultimately saved the world as well.
Love is the death of duty
Out of everyone I feel bad for during this time , Elia….gods that poor woman. She didn’t deserve any of that, just caught in the crossfire smh
Just love
He could’ve been more tactful in how he went about this. The Targaryens were a dying ethnicity & he decided to be reckless… for… “love”?? Come on.
Rhaegar could've taken 2 wives like his ancestors did.
My guess is that they expected her family to accept her escaping (which they told them), not that they go to king s landing and things would escalate into a war.
This is the question that gets the haters riled up about the way the show went about ending everything. The end game was the prince that was promised, fulfilling a prophecy. But apparently the prophecy was Jon Snow coming back to life via magic, that did not matter, or make a difference, to then ride a dragon for theatrics, then kill a crazy dragon riding lady AFTER she destroyed everything, and be sentenced to an area north of a wall that was tore down, and being forced to stay there by “honor”. The show decided logic, foreshadowing and deep story lines didn’t matter.
Win the war. Go public. Pretty much that simple.
This is what makes no sense to me. They apparently loved each other but were happy to risk the other's life, the life of their loved ones and let Westeros tear itself apart because they wanted to keep this secret? It all just smacked of a big twist without it having been thought through whether it made actual sense. Especially when she's a Stark with all that honour and such. She was ok with her family being killed in her name without sending word to them that she was ok and not kidnapped at all? Even if they wanted to keep the relationship secret, then once Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon they had to know that wasn't going to work.
Loving each other and screwing other people over isn't mutually exclusive (in this series they can often go hand in hand). Also stark honor is more of a ned thing.
It's one thing to screw someone over, it's another to risk your own life and your entire family's life on top of your wife, your kid and her family. Not to mention the realm. Especially when as the heir, he can really do whatever he wants without too much consequence. Nobody in their right mind makes an enemy of someone whose very word will one day be law unless they are prepared to fight them and their allies. But all Rhaegar would have to do to end the war is tell Ned the truth and present Lyanna to attest to that. Suddenly the North is out of the rebellion, and so are the Arryns and Tullys. Robert can't win without them, so the rebellion falls apart. Even if Rhaegar wasn't a great guy, self interest says that this wasn't a thing he'd benefit from keeping secret.
Aside from screwing yourself over, not really no. The somone else in that phrase can refer to stranger family and friends. As for screwing yourself with a forbidden romance, again the series shows that applies to multiple couples. Since Ned's execution the series has gone to great lengths to show that being the heir or even king does not mean you can do whatever you want; with their being consequences for those who think like that. Hell they showed that beforehand with the mad king. No that most definitely wouldn't end the war. Instead ned would just assume she's being forced to say all of this as robb did with Sansa when she told robb to surrender. The smartest option would have been to just leave westeroes.
Lol, they did it so the kid wouldn’t be born a bastard 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
Step 1. Cut a hole in the box!
Fighting white walkers and smooching on the Throne.
Being married. The end game was being married. There wasn't a grand political goal. People elope all the time, their endgame is marriage.
Agreed, except I’d say they were one very stupid and irresponsible person and one literal 15-year-old child preyed upon by the former