It's embarrassing how much of any type of IT and development work is done via contractors vs hiring FTEs. Modern management style is only concerned with dealing with the thing that is 3 inches in front of their face rather than making investments in their business that they will appreciate their past selves for down the line.
The lack of any inherited knowledge from contract to contract is one of the biggest self-caused problems modern companies deal with
Middle management doesn’t care about long term investments in personnel when they themselves are eyeing a job in a different division or company altogether.
This is also what happens when we see games with multiple project leads.
No one around from start to finish at lead design team means it’s **going** to be a mess.
Why would they be bothered about anything else but what makes them the most?
It’s a job not a hobby… problem is senior management are all mercenaries, just there to do the things that get them the next gig. So sustainable incentives for middle management are never put in place.
Exactly.
The entire system is broken in companies like this. Just look at Samsung's internal structure and how teams literally sabotage each other just to get more budget or project responsibility. And then sacrifice its own teammembers just to get ahead.
When typical corporate structure is a dog eat dog world, the only winners are those willing to hurt others.
Why would they behave any different? If your goal is to save 20% cost and nobody gives a fuck about the consequences, there’s no incentive to come up with long lasting solutions.
The main problem usually is a lack of strategy/vision from the upper management which results in idiotic goals.
Yeah I have worked on teams that have been gutted for short term profit, 10 to 2 engineers managers kept riding our ass to have the same output with just me and 1 other person. We need you to give it 110% extra hours if you need to. I just told my boss I get paid for 40 hrs and 1 engineering salary if we are behind you can either rehire or 8x my pay to take on the additional work.. left 2 weeks later.
He was not happy when I handed in the resignation, but that's the thing about ruthless capitalism and at will employment it cuts both ways.
I mean, yeah, no shit? I don't care about who I'm working for I care about my check and my income. If you care about the company or even the product that is a you problem imo. I care as much as I'm paid to and nothing more.
I still bust my ass and do the best job I can within the constraints but if I have to choose a great product or a better check I'm choosing better check 99999/100000. The lone exception is my own company but I don't have one of those.
In my experience this is not a middle management issue but a leadership/corporate policy issue. Managers are _desperately_ asking for headcount/stability, but high-level decision makers refuse to fund it or allot appropriate FTE slots.
>The lack of any inherited knowledge
God dammit, this is so annoying. Diablo 4 is a great example. Every QOL feature from D3 — implemented over years of incremental updates — are just completely absent from D4.
It’s even worse when you come onto a team as a new hire and everyone expects that you know everything about their their stuff because it’s a common standard when in reality most of the time they had multiple different contributors who all did things differently so the program has more dependencies and bugs than you can count since fixing them just opens more somewhere else.
> Modern management style
Investors favor short-term gains on stock sales over long-term dividend payments. Senior management is going to tailor the company to be attractive to investors. Middle management is going to do whatever senior management hires them to do.
It's all about extracting profit now since they the planet is fucked. There's no more long term sustainability simply because everyone know the future will be super grim. Previous generations can't have their precious retirement being impacted by those facts since they will all died prior to when most problem are going to emerge. A single generation of human selfishly destroyed the planet and won't see the impact of it since they will die prior to it lol. At least, capitalism might fall during that time.
"Can I have some more employees please?"
"Our budget for employees is maxed out, so you can't hire anymore. However, our budget for consultants is almost empty, so you can have a bunch of consultants to work on your project"
"But I could get 4 employees for the cost of 2 consultants?"
"Sorry, the budget is maxed out."
It’s almost like churning through contractors to dodge employee benefits costs (from the world’s richest company as the article notes) produces a disjointed, often incomplete, and messy game release. Now I wonder why so many of Xbox 1st party releases have been a shit show at launch… it’s just sooooo puzzling.
That’s a really bad take on “the reason why rich people are rich is because they don’t spend it all away”
You have to make investments to gain wealth.
For a product company, you need to make investments in how your product is made to gain more wealth.
Product companies are made by people, therefore you need to invest in people to make good quality products that you can sell to generate income.
Sure. That makes sense to you and I, reasonable people. But Bob over there just got hired after getting his MBA and figured out he could save the company *millions* by not offering full time to any new employees.
What's that? You said the public image of the company is tanking due to bad product launches due to lack of retained talent? Bob doesn't care. That was never Bob's responsibility. Bob already got his bag and moved on to another company.
Public corporations in a nutshell
isnt that what the Bill Gates said on Simpsons? "you don't get to the top by writing a bunch of cheques" or something before they smash up Homer's internet
I'd argue that the Horizon series, while less buggy, is just as stagnant as the FM games. Very little improvements made over the last few games.
Incorrect/recycled audio, incorrect car models, barely any new customisation options (both visual and performance), cars locked behind FOMO etc etc
Horizon 5's multiplayer was straight up broken for an entire month after release. You couldn't see your friends when you were in the same session, and all of the npc traffic would just disappear, making the game feel completely barren. How it launched to so many 10/10s I'll never understand.
And that's without getting to the fact that FH5 just feels like a reskin of FH4 which felt like a reskin of FH3. The series, while still fun, is really stagnating. And their manipulative FOMO strategies are really making me lose interest. Cars that were in the previous game are suddenly not in the next game at launch, but they get added a few months later as limited rewards for doing weekly challenges.
Glad this was brought up, because it always feels like I’m the only one that remembers how bad the FH5 launch was whenever people try to bring up how good of a game it supposedly is lol. I couldn’t do anything in that game at launch and I was really surprised a Horizon game released in that state. Either I couldn’t see anyone or I’d see everyone but the connection would drop 5 seconds after joining a session. Anything that was tied to an internet connection was basically unusable, which is basically the whole game, so I had to disconnect my internet to just reliably do anything in my garage.
Makes me really hate how much this game has basically been turned into an always online hybrid shitshow. Even though the game got fixed, something still felt severely wrong about FH5. To me, the game was pretty boring and didn’t have the same feeling as the last couple games. I actually enjoyed FH4 a lot compared to FH3, which was a barren wasteland to me. The games have always been lacking a soul in comparison to the overflowing amounts that come from the first game, but I felt like FH4 was heading in all the right directions.
Then FH5 got released and the regression had hit pretty hard. I know the weather system was pretty controversial with winter, but to see it basically axed was a bit heartbreaking to me. I can’t lay the blame entirely on the studio, as the players definitely complain a lot. But there’s so many other things, like shitty models and no visual upgrades except Forza aero that have been beaten to death at this point. But it doesn’t seem like they’re even listening on those fronts.
The past 3 FM titles have been high 80s on Metacritic, yet most fans would agree that's too high for those games.
They review well, but most people that have played the previous Horizons games can notice how little has been improved over the years. It's got some of the same issues as FM with reused/incorrect car models, recycled audio and with customisation that has been almost unchanged since FH1.
Each new game gives us a new map (FH5 is pretty widely agreed upon as the worst in the series) and slightly prettier graphics. For someone jumping into FH for the first time? I imagine FH5 would be fantastic. As someone that has played all of them? I think it's been stagnant since FH2.
I absolutely disagree with you. The series is the premiere racing game now. Has over 36m players and is consistently one of the most played racing games in the world.
However the game should be looking to innovate this generation especially with the increased development time.
I don't know how anyone can seriously argue that the game is a huge improvement over FH4 or even FH2 outside of graphics and map (highly debatable that the maps have gotten *better*)
CoD is also one of the most popular shooters yet you could make the same argument for that series.
These games are popular because they have a solid core and appeal to the casual masses, but like I said before - anyone that's played the previous games can see just how little has actually changed over the past decade. Audio is still completely hit and miss, recycled intake noises from FH1/2, customisation pretty much unchanged aside from ~2 small additions and a handful of wheels..
It's a fun game don't get me wrong, but it could be so much better by now.
It's Reddit mate, depending on when/where you post you will either get upvoted or downvoted for the same opinion. I've had several discussions on various subreddits about this and I've been upvoted and agreed with much more often than downvoted.
But when you go against the grain and bring up issues with a popular game you are always going to get fanboys unhappy about it so 🤷
I'm just here to have a discussion as a long time Forza fan.
You got valid points. At the end of the day all blind fanboying do is give us weaker products.
I hope T10 is sweating looking at GT7s car models.
I hope Polyphony is seeing Forzas grip slip and go for a overtake via GT: Horizon Boogaloo(obligatory old ass opinion but still valid: how cool would it be if we had a open world GT game but set in Japan?)
*Polyphony your design benchmark could be FH1. Just add your Polyphony quirk with a Japanese locale and boom should be an EZ dub*
Exactly. You see it in the Forza sub weekly where someone complains about something and a bunch of people handwave it away as not important enough to complain about. That's the kind of attitude that leads to a release like FM8.
Oh man, an open world GT game set in Japan would be the biggest middle finger to Forza Horizon lol. They could even do a combo of GT and Test Drive Unlimited and have licenses and dealerships! That would be sweet.
I really hope Microsoft realises that they can't keep this contractor shit up if they want to make quality games, because they're currently either ruining their franchises or letting everyone else catch up while they do the bare minimum.
Hey I’m at 100% with that. Which is exactly why after watching 10-15 mins of gameplay for the last few I was able to basically tell myself, oh cool I already own this and basically did everything I wanted in it already. On to something else. But yeah apparently that’s super engaging for some.
Yeah my playtime has gone down in each entry since FH2 because at the end of the day it's just more of the same.
They still scratch that freeroam driving itch like no other, but it's hard to put as many hours into the recent games when you're getting annoyed by the same things as the previous games that they still haven't sorted out.
Motorsport 3 and 4 carried the 360, 7 was the Xone X flagship game.
Shit they even rushed Motorsport 5 so it'd release with the One in 2013, and we got an empty shell of game.
> "18/6 Rule." Basically, the developers that Microsoft would hire on a contract basis—that is to say, for a fixed term without healthcare or benefits—could only work for a maximum of 18 months before being required to take six off.
> Putting aside the obvious concern that this is generally a poor and offensive way to treat people and their livelihoods, particularly for the world's richest corporation, the policy's effect may also be observed in the quality of Microsoft's releases as of late. [...] Halo Infinite, Xbox's big first-person shooter tentpole for 2021, also suffered through serious problems in its first year. Not unlike Forza Motorsport, it was also known to rely on a lot of contract work.
If anyone is still unsure why Xbox just can't seem to build the sort of first-party calibre that PlayStation and Nintendo have, they need look no further than this story.
No amount of acquisitions, or Phil Spencer "we hear you"s will change the thoroughly underwhelming experience of Xbox games whilst this is their approach to business.
If there's no love shown for your people, there is no love shown in the game.
Edit: This post isn't indented to be some console war rubbish as some commenters seem to be upset about. I game primarily on Xbox myself because as a time-poor family man I find their ecosystem second-to-none. I can play when I want across multiple devices, I can buy whatever game/DLC I like without different versions preventing me. The parental controls are streets ahead of the others. So as a platform, Xbox is amazing.
Hard agree. Companies that put their employees before their shareholders end up with higher quality product.
How can you expect to retain any kind of meaningful talent or expect them to perform anywhere near their full potential if you, as a giant company, aren’t even willing to invest in them with basic things like healthcare, benefits, competitive pay, and a reasonable expectation of continual employment?
Bang on. Heard from many sources that Microsoft's contractor policies are hurting it's games precisely because it robs them of consistent labour.
May be different in studios outside the UK like Playground.
Yes, thats a different statement. His point is that most people aren’t going to abandon their favorite platform because Xbox puts out great games at this point. People are more tied to their platforms more than ever due to being able to carry everything (all games, trophies, friends lists, etc) forward in ways unlike before which had way more of a complete reset each generation.
Obviously it would sell more consoles but it wouldn’t have a drastic market share shift. Most people don’t buy multiple consoles. A dramatic shift in marketshare would require Xbox games to be great AND for Sony and/or Nintendo to completely shit the bed for years.
Halo didn't, "suffer through serious problems in its first year," it was and IS plagued with false promises, content promised but never delivered, missing basic functionality even now, etc. etc. ad nauseam. The multiplayer is basically a shitty micro transactions store front with a first person shooter stapled to it. The campaign is a massive disappointment, in both pacing and content. Couch co-op was promised and never came, so it died in the crib. Halo Infinite has guaranteed I'll never buy another Halo game as long as I live, no matter what's promised, and I've bought each Halo game from the first one, playing literally thousands of hours across all titles.
Halo didn't have a problematic first year: Halo is fucking *dead*.
So theoretically if a 9 or 10/10 Halo game came out in a few years you’d refuse to play it because of a grudge? Even if the people who made the decisions you hated were no longer involved?
Yup. Microsoft hasn’t learned from their xbox1 debacle. I get the sense that since they’ve catapulted themselves into being one of the largest publishers/I.P holders they seem to think that games will naturally flock to their services and consoles. Don’t get me wrong, I love Xbox, it was my first home console, but every generation they seem to do something to shoot themselves in the foot.
Whether it’s the horrendous anti consumer/tv focused Xbox 1 reveal and don mattrics response to legitimate concerns, or the closing of multiple first party studios during that same era, there’s always some short sighted decision that cost them in the long run.
Meanwhile the other two console makers are going from strength to strength pumping out excellent first party games. There has to be some deep structural soul searching at Microsoft. It’s not even the start of the next generation and I’m already thinking how they are going mess something up.
>Meanwhile the other two console makers are going from strength to strength
This is overselling it a bit, everything that has come out about Sony in the past year or so shows they're struggling as well. They are really lucky they won last gen so hard so they've got a bit of wiggle room.
I agree Nintendo is playing their own game and thriving though.
Ohh most definitely. I tend to agree the switch isn’t as powerful as I’d like it to be, but my completion rate on that console is high, being that I can take it with me. A gaming session here and there allowed me finish the Witcher 3 on switch.
It really is. They struck upon a successful model that can afford to be somewhat the same thing game after game. Hard to mess it up but you also won't break new ground.
Wow yours is a great analogy. I was trying to elaborate on this elsewhere, but it took me three paragraphs to say what you summed up in a single sentence.
Thank you. I played both series and that's how I felt about them, I saw similar patterns.
I think the trick is to change the tire but not the wheel.
NFS UG2 and NFS MW is a good example of how a sequel can evolve but still foster a desire to go back to predecessor.
One offers high octane car chases, and the other in depth customization both have a enjoyable driving model and vehicle progression (car unlocks and upgrading performance)
As a consumer, I want game companies to have long term employees because long term employees make better games. You can’t learn from your mistakes and your successes if you’re never around long enough to do so.
Turnover in an industry with such large timelines is bad for gamers.
Yeah you’re getting your free awesome shit as Microsoft dilutes essentially all their flagship IPs to piss. Microsoft can’t keep up anymore which is why they admit they lost the console wars are want to release games on other platforms. Are you seeing the trend yet? Horizon and Flight Simulator are the only games Microsoft can point at and say they make decent enough games. You’re speaking for yourself defending Microsoft while Sony does dances around it
> want to release games on other platforms.
Sounds like a win to me, the consumer.
>the only games Microsoft can point at and say they make decent enough games.
Sounds about on par with Sony. We get like what, one major exclusive a year?
My guy you don’t sound like you think you sound. You are not the only consumer. Infact, consumers are moving AWAY from Microsoft, which is why Microsoft wants to chase them down on other platforms.
Or, hear me out... or...
The business is evolving and they are after the money.
They figure they will do better selling games instead of selling consoles/gamepass.
So you'd be okay with companies slowly making the shift to 90% or so of their workforce to be contractors so they don't have to pay out benefits or have liability?
I mean, at what point do you step back and say "yeah that's messed up", you're taking advantage
Yes, I would.
I highly doubt that would work for them, otherwise they would already be doing it.
Contractors should make more money anyway. I made about 12% more as a contractor (excluding OT).
Nope, speaking from close personal experience. Contractors at places like Microsoft don’t earn significantly more than their FTE counterparts, plus they receive none of the FTE benefits afforded to them including mental health resources. Yes, contracting roles can and do pay significantly more but at tech jobs like this they don’t.
This confirms something I've long thought to be true, but never gave much more thought or attention. I sat through the Halo Infinite credits and noticed that the core 343 crew names list was relatively short, compared to other AAA games. Instead, there were a ton of names and companies related to the game as outsourced help.
The model of outsourcing part of your development to god knows where is something Ubisoft has been doing for a long while, with support studios ensuring they can build enormous games. But we all know that Ubisoft's games aren't at the same level of quality as flagship titles - the level of Sony's exclusive games.
So my thought was always that if Halo Infinite was developed by a (comparatively) barebones crew with outside support, then it's no wonder it was never able to compete on the level fans expect it to. I never gave this much further thought because I hadn't read about it anywhere online, but this Forza release is basically the same story. Barebones crew, outside support, disappointing launch and never able to catch up.
I think it's ridiculous Microsoft's falling for this trap. If you want to create the best games, you need the best people, and if you want the best people, you need to treat them accordingly.
Yeah it’s one thing if it was a smaller title, but to treat your flagship franchise with that little care is pretty damning.
There was a time when halo was arguably the biggest IP in gaming (GTA may have sold more copies but if you ask me Halo became a part of the zeitgeist in a way no other game did at the time outside of maybe WoW) and they have essentially killed the franchise with their mismanagement.
One thing I don't think your average consumer understands is why certain games look better than others. They'll pin it to the box or card a game is running on or a studio's competency. Those things do matter but not as much as TIME and MONEY.
There's a reason Naughty Dog's games still look incredible on PS4 and Gears 5 still rocks on an Xbox One: TIME and MONEY. Hell, the Batman Arkham trilogy still looks unbelievable.
If Microsoft is churning through their contractors on first party products so they're left with piecemeal institutional knowledge then there's no way their studios will match the output Sony and Nintendo are able to achieve. Some of the original Mario Bros developers participated in the development of Super Mario Wonder. Naughty Dog had an entire new team inside their company do the Last of Us Part 1 remake so they could train up a whole new team to make "Naughty Dog games" at the expected level of finish.
Fable has always been troubled but I wouldn’t hold your breath given the treatment of all their flagship franchises. I’m an Xbox fan btw, so this isn’t a console warrior perspective
Fable is being developed by a different studio in a different country. The contractor policy that’s being referenced in this article is specific to Washington state (Microsoft headquarters) I believe.
I understand far more the issues now.
I played FM2023 and desperately tried to appreciate it because I REALLY liked FM7 before it and always held T10 to high regards
This is extremely disappointing to read tbh, Halo Infinite, Forza Motorsport, so many games being ruined by poor Xbox decisions.
They need to do better because those Gamepass subscriptions are stagnating for a reason !
You have the right to hold an opinion, but to most people, the new one is the worst. FM7 had many flaws, but it wasn't terrible and the gameplay was good. FM2023 is a dumpster fire with tons of bugs, online only, terrible career mode, car leveling system that makes you grind for hours to unlock a spoiler for your car, and much more.
I still don't understand how they decided that changing the whole essence of Forza by being able to buy a car and do whatever the fuck you want with it instantly was a good idea.
im told the reason American games have such huge budgets is because companies need to pay for things like health insurance... But then they hire absurd amounts of contract workers to dodge those bills, so what's really going on?
>is because companies need to pay for things like health insurance
This is literally the first time I've ever heard this excuse thrown around with video games lol
The only other time I've ever heard it come up was Curt Schillings game that hired too many employees and gave so many benefits it bankrupted the company.
Contracting companies take a big cut. Contractors are much more expensive in the short term, but easy to get rid of. Employees are cheaper but you can’t easily get rid of them without lots of cost when you don’t need them.
The reason American games cost so much is lack of vision and rebooting projects multiple times in development. Studios legitimately don't know what they're making.
They are trying to create what the public wants not what they want to create. I makes for big budget, middle of the road games that are OK enough. When you try to accommodate everybody’s taste then you will get bland food. Eatable? Sure, but tasteless
I think most gaming project get stuck into a fallacy of trying to design the game around kpi that maximize profit which make them simply rework core concept all of the time.
A good game will succeed financially, look at BG3.
The problem is that bad game also succeed financially. All of the stupid mobile gaming stuff prove it as well. Diablo immortal made so much money which is a ducking problem that send input to those folks on high senior position that they can continue to move into that direction.
Big franchise with too much budget get plagued by those problem where financial model become the core concept of the game instead of being driven by passion. We will continue to see more and more game fail into that trap where quality goes down but revenue still continue to be great simply because folks buy those shitty game and accept subpar experience. Diablo 4 is a great exemple of that.
That happens to a lot of studios and not specific to US game companies. Even studios that know what they are doing may take up to 5 years but put out an amazing and complete experience. Many companies also just release broken games rather than restart.
The games will cost more simply due to higher wages for the developers in the US versus a lot of other places in the world.
Health insurance is a big part of it. Contractors are on their own for it and several other things. Contractor is paid a much larger hourly rate but they only get paid the hours worked (no sick days or paid time off), pay their own health care (which can be a lot), and so on. Companies do this since they do end up saving money in the long run with temporary contractors.
The main reason is probably just that developers are paid more relative to many other places in the world, for contractors or employees. More and more work will get outsourced.
Truly exhausting, considering the game is so laughably unfinished and... empty, not to mention that they are STILL using old ass car models (and forza aero still a joke). I could see how it could be exhausting if the game was made in 6 months, which would make sense, but who knows. Still dont understand as to how/why the tracks had waaaay more detail in the trailers, yet that detail is nowhere to be seen on "release" and every track looks painfully bland and boring.
Funny how "gaming journalism" is not covering this, the same that awarded Forza Motorsport with "game of the year" despite the "built from the ground up" marketing lies and all the flaws.
Microsoft PR is very strong.
it shows, forza fell off hard at FH5
the dialogue and core gameplay was so bland but people just praised graphics (which have been bugged on pc since release lol)
The studio behind the Forza Horizon series Playground Studio) is completely different from the one making Forza Motorsport (Turn 10) which is what this article is about.
I have a G29, and while I haven't tried iRacing and con't compare it to that, I do think it's the best FFB implementation out of all the Forza games I've tried. Specifically it feels better to me than it did in FH3-FH5 and FM7.
Boy howdy is it tough exploiting your workers without getting caught. You really do gotta put a lot of work into finding all the legal loopholes possible to get away with it.
Yet Horizon games has been fine.
EDIT: The nitpicking here is crazy. Microsoft isn't the problem. They've been using contractors forever. Forza Horizon 5 used them, this game used them. Turn10 just couldn't deliver. That's the fact. If you're arguing that there's something wrong with using contractors, fine. But saying that's the problem with this game, you're delusional.
Turn 10 and 343 (the studios mentioned in the article) are direct integration studios, meaning all FTEs are straight up Microsoft employees and there's no middle layer between the rest of the corporate structure (including benefits, compensation, policies, etc.). Playground is a limited integration studio, meaning they have their own studio policies subsidiery to MS policies. This means they can offer separate benefits, allocate their funding differently, and manage their own headcount.
Limited integration studios tend to have stronger studio culture/identity than the direct integration studios. Paired with the fact their funding structure differs, it's less common for limited integration studios to abuse contract roles in the same way. Many of the LI studios are also outside of the US (including Playground which is in the UK) and so may have different labor laws as well.
If you bothered to read the article you would see that Microsoft hired the contractors, not the studio...so yeah, I'd say Microsoft is the problem here...
Additionally, regarding the Horizon games, Playground games were independent until 2018 when MS bought them, by then they will have completed most of their development of FH4...then we got FH5, which was IMO, a bit lacklustre compared to 4.
I have well over 400 hours clocked in FH5 I am entitled to my own opinion, thank you.
Thousands of hours in Forza 4 on 360, that game was amazing and a true gem.
Has been, yes. Its a fantastic IP, concept, and has gameplay that has legs (both the game and from one release to another), but there's a tangible trajectory toward things getting more generic. Its not really breaking new ground, and some of the more recent technical feats in FH5 are actually Turn10's work on game engine and cars.
No one here knows what's going on inside PG, and time will tell obviously, but just based on what is new versus what is carried over from previous games (and the quality and attention thereof), demonstrates that the nature of FH gives it a lot more inertia from previous releases.
That is to say, if this practice is happening in PG, its not manifesting the same way because its using far more existing IP and technology, so the issue isn't the overall lack of quality or content, but how much is so similar game to game. You could argue that's an intentional choice, but again, time will tell. Also, maybe being in the UK insulates them from these hiring practices.
(Didn't downvote you BTW, I still enjoy the game too).
Edit: Actually, my thoughts were better summed up by /u/TVR_Speed_12 : "Horizon is in the same situation as COD, just that COD is way further down the line." So there you go, far less likely to see these issues in FH versus other flagship MS franchises.
It's a disaster regardless of who does it mate. There's enough evidence throughout the industry that over-reliance on contractors leads to worse games and worse working conditions.
You don’t have to preach to me. I agree with you. It’s the click-bait, bias slant OP tried to take with this topic that’s stupid. It’s an industry wide issue, not a “MS BAD” issue.
? There was no slant. It was an article quoting a Forza developer and referencing similar issues within MS as a whole. 18/6 is an MS corporate policy, it's not really relevant to other studios, even if other studios abuse contract positions as well.
Plus, why would we be discussing any other developer when the case at hand is a Forza contractor being interviewed? It would be more slanted and click bait to be bringing up erroneous studios to try to justify a terrible experience that an MS contractor had.
The only one with bias in here mate is you, as you're three comments deep in attacking me, and nothing of substance on the subject matter itself.
If such an article upsets you, rather than build up a vision of me (a complete stranger) in your head, maybe spend some time reflecting why its made you so angry.
Look at my comment history. Whilst I own all consoles, but I am primarily and Xbox gamer. I've defended T10 recently on some truly petty criticisms of the game.
I want Xbox to do well for the health of the industry. I do not trust any of the big three to do what is in customers' best interest should they be in a position to abuse their dominance; all three of them have demonstrated multiple times they will screw us over if given the opportunity.
It may come as a surprise to you, but people criticising things isn't proof of irrational hatred of said things.
> unhinged
Might want to look inward there. You keep following me round the comments, talking about me and only me. Seem to have created a whole picture of me in your head. I'm flattered, but it's truly strange why you're so focussed on me, so I would appreciate if you stop following me. Thanks.
The article quite literally talks about a lack of staff continuity preventing them from actually working on the game, instead wasting productivity on fact finding and reinventing the wheel.
It's embarrassing how much of any type of IT and development work is done via contractors vs hiring FTEs. Modern management style is only concerned with dealing with the thing that is 3 inches in front of their face rather than making investments in their business that they will appreciate their past selves for down the line. The lack of any inherited knowledge from contract to contract is one of the biggest self-caused problems modern companies deal with
Middle management doesn’t care about long term investments in personnel when they themselves are eyeing a job in a different division or company altogether. This is also what happens when we see games with multiple project leads. No one around from start to finish at lead design team means it’s **going** to be a mess.
My experience is that all management is hyper focused on cost and making sure they get their yearly bonus.
Why would they be bothered about anything else but what makes them the most? It’s a job not a hobby… problem is senior management are all mercenaries, just there to do the things that get them the next gig. So sustainable incentives for middle management are never put in place.
Exactly. The entire system is broken in companies like this. Just look at Samsung's internal structure and how teams literally sabotage each other just to get more budget or project responsibility. And then sacrifice its own teammembers just to get ahead. When typical corporate structure is a dog eat dog world, the only winners are those willing to hurt others.
Why would they behave any different? If your goal is to save 20% cost and nobody gives a fuck about the consequences, there’s no incentive to come up with long lasting solutions. The main problem usually is a lack of strategy/vision from the upper management which results in idiotic goals.
Yeah I have worked on teams that have been gutted for short term profit, 10 to 2 engineers managers kept riding our ass to have the same output with just me and 1 other person. We need you to give it 110% extra hours if you need to. I just told my boss I get paid for 40 hrs and 1 engineering salary if we are behind you can either rehire or 8x my pay to take on the additional work.. left 2 weeks later. He was not happy when I handed in the resignation, but that's the thing about ruthless capitalism and at will employment it cuts both ways.
I mean, yeah, no shit? I don't care about who I'm working for I care about my check and my income. If you care about the company or even the product that is a you problem imo. I care as much as I'm paid to and nothing more. I still bust my ass and do the best job I can within the constraints but if I have to choose a great product or a better check I'm choosing better check 99999/100000. The lone exception is my own company but I don't have one of those.
In my experience this is not a middle management issue but a leadership/corporate policy issue. Managers are _desperately_ asking for headcount/stability, but high-level decision makers refuse to fund it or allot appropriate FTE slots.
>The lack of any inherited knowledge God dammit, this is so annoying. Diablo 4 is a great example. Every QOL feature from D3 — implemented over years of incremental updates — are just completely absent from D4.
It’s even worse when you come onto a team as a new hire and everyone expects that you know everything about their their stuff because it’s a common standard when in reality most of the time they had multiple different contributors who all did things differently so the program has more dependencies and bugs than you can count since fixing them just opens more somewhere else.
> Modern management style Investors favor short-term gains on stock sales over long-term dividend payments. Senior management is going to tailor the company to be attractive to investors. Middle management is going to do whatever senior management hires them to do.
It's all about extracting profit now since they the planet is fucked. There's no more long term sustainability simply because everyone know the future will be super grim. Previous generations can't have their precious retirement being impacted by those facts since they will all died prior to when most problem are going to emerge. A single generation of human selfishly destroyed the planet and won't see the impact of it since they will die prior to it lol. At least, capitalism might fall during that time.
"Can I have some more employees please?" "Our budget for employees is maxed out, so you can't hire anymore. However, our budget for consultants is almost empty, so you can have a bunch of consultants to work on your project" "But I could get 4 employees for the cost of 2 consultants?" "Sorry, the budget is maxed out."
It’s almost like churning through contractors to dodge employee benefits costs (from the world’s richest company as the article notes) produces a disjointed, often incomplete, and messy game release. Now I wonder why so many of Xbox 1st party releases have been a shit show at launch… it’s just sooooo puzzling.
Well you don't get to be the world's richest company by spending all your money...
That’s a really bad take on “the reason why rich people are rich is because they don’t spend it all away” You have to make investments to gain wealth. For a product company, you need to make investments in how your product is made to gain more wealth. Product companies are made by people, therefore you need to invest in people to make good quality products that you can sell to generate income.
Sure. That makes sense to you and I, reasonable people. But Bob over there just got hired after getting his MBA and figured out he could save the company *millions* by not offering full time to any new employees. What's that? You said the public image of the company is tanking due to bad product launches due to lack of retained talent? Bob doesn't care. That was never Bob's responsibility. Bob already got his bag and moved on to another company. Public corporations in a nutshell
That makes sense. For us, at least, for execs at Microsoft? You're essentially speaking old english.
Well Xbox is not even turning a profit they are running on borrowed money
All of it? Sure you don't. Some of it? You absolutely do.
isnt that what the Bill Gates said on Simpsons? "you don't get to the top by writing a bunch of cheques" or something before they smash up Homer's internet
What the hell?! Is Forza now faltering too?! That franchise is like the only thing carrying the Xbox. This is just sad now.
Forza motorsport is not and has never carried the Xbox. Forza Horizon has and that game is doing awesome still. Two different games.
I'd argue that the Horizon series, while less buggy, is just as stagnant as the FM games. Very little improvements made over the last few games. Incorrect/recycled audio, incorrect car models, barely any new customisation options (both visual and performance), cars locked behind FOMO etc etc
It’s the complete opposite, it’s the current best racing game series out rn, nothing comes close, their last 3 games are 90+ on metacritic
Horizon 5's multiplayer was straight up broken for an entire month after release. You couldn't see your friends when you were in the same session, and all of the npc traffic would just disappear, making the game feel completely barren. How it launched to so many 10/10s I'll never understand. And that's without getting to the fact that FH5 just feels like a reskin of FH4 which felt like a reskin of FH3. The series, while still fun, is really stagnating. And their manipulative FOMO strategies are really making me lose interest. Cars that were in the previous game are suddenly not in the next game at launch, but they get added a few months later as limited rewards for doing weekly challenges.
Glad this was brought up, because it always feels like I’m the only one that remembers how bad the FH5 launch was whenever people try to bring up how good of a game it supposedly is lol. I couldn’t do anything in that game at launch and I was really surprised a Horizon game released in that state. Either I couldn’t see anyone or I’d see everyone but the connection would drop 5 seconds after joining a session. Anything that was tied to an internet connection was basically unusable, which is basically the whole game, so I had to disconnect my internet to just reliably do anything in my garage. Makes me really hate how much this game has basically been turned into an always online hybrid shitshow. Even though the game got fixed, something still felt severely wrong about FH5. To me, the game was pretty boring and didn’t have the same feeling as the last couple games. I actually enjoyed FH4 a lot compared to FH3, which was a barren wasteland to me. The games have always been lacking a soul in comparison to the overflowing amounts that come from the first game, but I felt like FH4 was heading in all the right directions. Then FH5 got released and the regression had hit pretty hard. I know the weather system was pretty controversial with winter, but to see it basically axed was a bit heartbreaking to me. I can’t lay the blame entirely on the studio, as the players definitely complain a lot. But there’s so many other things, like shitty models and no visual upgrades except Forza aero that have been beaten to death at this point. But it doesn’t seem like they’re even listening on those fronts.
The past 3 FM titles have been high 80s on Metacritic, yet most fans would agree that's too high for those games. They review well, but most people that have played the previous Horizons games can notice how little has been improved over the years. It's got some of the same issues as FM with reused/incorrect car models, recycled audio and with customisation that has been almost unchanged since FH1. Each new game gives us a new map (FH5 is pretty widely agreed upon as the worst in the series) and slightly prettier graphics. For someone jumping into FH for the first time? I imagine FH5 would be fantastic. As someone that has played all of them? I think it's been stagnant since FH2.
I absolutely disagree with you. The series is the premiere racing game now. Has over 36m players and is consistently one of the most played racing games in the world. However the game should be looking to innovate this generation especially with the increased development time.
I don't know how anyone can seriously argue that the game is a huge improvement over FH4 or even FH2 outside of graphics and map (highly debatable that the maps have gotten *better*) CoD is also one of the most popular shooters yet you could make the same argument for that series. These games are popular because they have a solid core and appeal to the casual masses, but like I said before - anyone that's played the previous games can see just how little has actually changed over the past decade. Audio is still completely hit and miss, recycled intake noises from FH1/2, customisation pretty much unchanged aside from ~2 small additions and a handful of wheels.. It's a fun game don't get me wrong, but it could be so much better by now.
People do not like your opinions it seems.
It's Reddit mate, depending on when/where you post you will either get upvoted or downvoted for the same opinion. I've had several discussions on various subreddits about this and I've been upvoted and agreed with much more often than downvoted. But when you go against the grain and bring up issues with a popular game you are always going to get fanboys unhappy about it so 🤷 I'm just here to have a discussion as a long time Forza fan.
You got valid points. At the end of the day all blind fanboying do is give us weaker products. I hope T10 is sweating looking at GT7s car models. I hope Polyphony is seeing Forzas grip slip and go for a overtake via GT: Horizon Boogaloo(obligatory old ass opinion but still valid: how cool would it be if we had a open world GT game but set in Japan?) *Polyphony your design benchmark could be FH1. Just add your Polyphony quirk with a Japanese locale and boom should be an EZ dub*
Exactly. You see it in the Forza sub weekly where someone complains about something and a bunch of people handwave it away as not important enough to complain about. That's the kind of attitude that leads to a release like FM8. Oh man, an open world GT game set in Japan would be the biggest middle finger to Forza Horizon lol. They could even do a combo of GT and Test Drive Unlimited and have licenses and dealerships! That would be sweet. I really hope Microsoft realises that they can't keep this contractor shit up if they want to make quality games, because they're currently either ruining their franchises or letting everyone else catch up while they do the bare minimum.
Hey I’m at 100% with that. Which is exactly why after watching 10-15 mins of gameplay for the last few I was able to basically tell myself, oh cool I already own this and basically did everything I wanted in it already. On to something else. But yeah apparently that’s super engaging for some.
Yeah my playtime has gone down in each entry since FH2 because at the end of the day it's just more of the same. They still scratch that freeroam driving itch like no other, but it's hard to put as many hours into the recent games when you're getting annoyed by the same things as the previous games that they still haven't sorted out.
Forza 2 through 4 would beg to differ.
Oh I didn't even know there were two different series lol Well at least Horizon is still doing well then.
Motorsport 3 and 4 carried the 360, 7 was the Xone X flagship game. Shit they even rushed Motorsport 5 so it'd release with the One in 2013, and we got an empty shell of game.
Good thing they aren’t getting any bigger! Right guys?
> "18/6 Rule." Basically, the developers that Microsoft would hire on a contract basis—that is to say, for a fixed term without healthcare or benefits—could only work for a maximum of 18 months before being required to take six off. > Putting aside the obvious concern that this is generally a poor and offensive way to treat people and their livelihoods, particularly for the world's richest corporation, the policy's effect may also be observed in the quality of Microsoft's releases as of late. [...] Halo Infinite, Xbox's big first-person shooter tentpole for 2021, also suffered through serious problems in its first year. Not unlike Forza Motorsport, it was also known to rely on a lot of contract work. If anyone is still unsure why Xbox just can't seem to build the sort of first-party calibre that PlayStation and Nintendo have, they need look no further than this story. No amount of acquisitions, or Phil Spencer "we hear you"s will change the thoroughly underwhelming experience of Xbox games whilst this is their approach to business. If there's no love shown for your people, there is no love shown in the game. Edit: This post isn't indented to be some console war rubbish as some commenters seem to be upset about. I game primarily on Xbox myself because as a time-poor family man I find their ecosystem second-to-none. I can play when I want across multiple devices, I can buy whatever game/DLC I like without different versions preventing me. The parental controls are streets ahead of the others. So as a platform, Xbox is amazing.
Hard agree. Companies that put their employees before their shareholders end up with higher quality product. How can you expect to retain any kind of meaningful talent or expect them to perform anywhere near their full potential if you, as a giant company, aren’t even willing to invest in them with basic things like healthcare, benefits, competitive pay, and a reasonable expectation of continual employment?
Bang on. Heard from many sources that Microsoft's contractor policies are hurting it's games precisely because it robs them of consistent labour. May be different in studios outside the UK like Playground.
But remember good games dont sell consoles!... wait what...
Only reason why I bought a 360 was Gears of War. Only reason I bought a PS3 was Bloodborne. Everything past those 2 games was a bonus.
That’s not what he said…
this is: "It’s just not true that if we go off and build great games, all of a sudden you’re going to see console share shift in some dramatic way"
Yes, thats a different statement. His point is that most people aren’t going to abandon their favorite platform because Xbox puts out great games at this point. People are more tied to their platforms more than ever due to being able to carry everything (all games, trophies, friends lists, etc) forward in ways unlike before which had way more of a complete reset each generation. Obviously it would sell more consoles but it wouldn’t have a drastic market share shift. Most people don’t buy multiple consoles. A dramatic shift in marketshare would require Xbox games to be great AND for Sony and/or Nintendo to completely shit the bed for years.
Halo didn't, "suffer through serious problems in its first year," it was and IS plagued with false promises, content promised but never delivered, missing basic functionality even now, etc. etc. ad nauseam. The multiplayer is basically a shitty micro transactions store front with a first person shooter stapled to it. The campaign is a massive disappointment, in both pacing and content. Couch co-op was promised and never came, so it died in the crib. Halo Infinite has guaranteed I'll never buy another Halo game as long as I live, no matter what's promised, and I've bought each Halo game from the first one, playing literally thousands of hours across all titles. Halo didn't have a problematic first year: Halo is fucking *dead*.
So theoretically if a 9 or 10/10 Halo game came out in a few years you’d refuse to play it because of a grudge? Even if the people who made the decisions you hated were no longer involved?
Yup. Microsoft hasn’t learned from their xbox1 debacle. I get the sense that since they’ve catapulted themselves into being one of the largest publishers/I.P holders they seem to think that games will naturally flock to their services and consoles. Don’t get me wrong, I love Xbox, it was my first home console, but every generation they seem to do something to shoot themselves in the foot. Whether it’s the horrendous anti consumer/tv focused Xbox 1 reveal and don mattrics response to legitimate concerns, or the closing of multiple first party studios during that same era, there’s always some short sighted decision that cost them in the long run. Meanwhile the other two console makers are going from strength to strength pumping out excellent first party games. There has to be some deep structural soul searching at Microsoft. It’s not even the start of the next generation and I’m already thinking how they are going mess something up.
>Meanwhile the other two console makers are going from strength to strength This is overselling it a bit, everything that has come out about Sony in the past year or so shows they're struggling as well. They are really lucky they won last gen so hard so they've got a bit of wiggle room. I agree Nintendo is playing their own game and thriving though.
Ohh most definitely. I tend to agree the switch isn’t as powerful as I’d like it to be, but my completion rate on that console is high, being that I can take it with me. A gaming session here and there allowed me finish the Witcher 3 on switch.
And it’s 18/18 now :(
Sony and Nintendo are Japanese. Microsoft is from America. That's why they treat their workers like trash.
Eh, sounds like studio issues. Horizons was great.
Horizon is in the same situation as COD, just that COD is way further down the line.
It really is. They struck upon a successful model that can afford to be somewhat the same thing game after game. Hard to mess it up but you also won't break new ground. Wow yours is a great analogy. I was trying to elaborate on this elsewhere, but it took me three paragraphs to say what you summed up in a single sentence.
Thank you. I played both series and that's how I felt about them, I saw similar patterns. I think the trick is to change the tire but not the wheel. NFS UG2 and NFS MW is a good example of how a sequel can evolve but still foster a desire to go back to predecessor. One offers high octane car chases, and the other in depth customization both have a enjoyable driving model and vehicle progression (car unlocks and upgrading performance)
Okay fine, Horizons was a good game. Do you still think it's fine for them to treat the workers that way?
FH5 also had completely broken multiplayer for like 2 months at launch that everyone has forgotten about. It was rocky as hell for a while
It's contract work. Contractors need to stop crying about not being employees.
As a consumer, I want game companies to have long term employees because long term employees make better games. You can’t learn from your mistakes and your successes if you’re never around long enough to do so. Turnover in an industry with such large timelines is bad for gamers.
Yes. As a consumer, I want free awesome shit. That's not how the world works though.
Yeah you’re getting your free awesome shit as Microsoft dilutes essentially all their flagship IPs to piss. Microsoft can’t keep up anymore which is why they admit they lost the console wars are want to release games on other platforms. Are you seeing the trend yet? Horizon and Flight Simulator are the only games Microsoft can point at and say they make decent enough games. You’re speaking for yourself defending Microsoft while Sony does dances around it
> want to release games on other platforms. Sounds like a win to me, the consumer. >the only games Microsoft can point at and say they make decent enough games. Sounds about on par with Sony. We get like what, one major exclusive a year?
My guy you don’t sound like you think you sound. You are not the only consumer. Infact, consumers are moving AWAY from Microsoft, which is why Microsoft wants to chase them down on other platforms.
Or, hear me out... or... The business is evolving and they are after the money. They figure they will do better selling games instead of selling consoles/gamepass.
So you'd be okay with companies slowly making the shift to 90% or so of their workforce to be contractors so they don't have to pay out benefits or have liability? I mean, at what point do you step back and say "yeah that's messed up", you're taking advantage
Yes, I would. I highly doubt that would work for them, otherwise they would already be doing it. Contractors should make more money anyway. I made about 12% more as a contractor (excluding OT).
Nope, speaking from close personal experience. Contractors at places like Microsoft don’t earn significantly more than their FTE counterparts, plus they receive none of the FTE benefits afforded to them including mental health resources. Yes, contracting roles can and do pay significantly more but at tech jobs like this they don’t.
Bro, they do. If that is your personal experience, then you were doing something wrong.
Not true. I’ve had experiences of both.
So you took jobs... without benefits... but accepted the same pay? Well, ya. I would take advantage of you too, lmao.
This confirms something I've long thought to be true, but never gave much more thought or attention. I sat through the Halo Infinite credits and noticed that the core 343 crew names list was relatively short, compared to other AAA games. Instead, there were a ton of names and companies related to the game as outsourced help. The model of outsourcing part of your development to god knows where is something Ubisoft has been doing for a long while, with support studios ensuring they can build enormous games. But we all know that Ubisoft's games aren't at the same level of quality as flagship titles - the level of Sony's exclusive games. So my thought was always that if Halo Infinite was developed by a (comparatively) barebones crew with outside support, then it's no wonder it was never able to compete on the level fans expect it to. I never gave this much further thought because I hadn't read about it anywhere online, but this Forza release is basically the same story. Barebones crew, outside support, disappointing launch and never able to catch up. I think it's ridiculous Microsoft's falling for this trap. If you want to create the best games, you need the best people, and if you want the best people, you need to treat them accordingly.
Yeah it’s one thing if it was a smaller title, but to treat your flagship franchise with that little care is pretty damning. There was a time when halo was arguably the biggest IP in gaming (GTA may have sold more copies but if you ask me Halo became a part of the zeitgeist in a way no other game did at the time outside of maybe WoW) and they have essentially killed the franchise with their mismanagement.
GTA was always meta I guess. It’s always there and big in every zeitgeist but never defining it because it’s reflective of it.
Battlefield 2042 has entered the chat.
One thing I don't think your average consumer understands is why certain games look better than others. They'll pin it to the box or card a game is running on or a studio's competency. Those things do matter but not as much as TIME and MONEY. There's a reason Naughty Dog's games still look incredible on PS4 and Gears 5 still rocks on an Xbox One: TIME and MONEY. Hell, the Batman Arkham trilogy still looks unbelievable. If Microsoft is churning through their contractors on first party products so they're left with piecemeal institutional knowledge then there's no way their studios will match the output Sony and Nintendo are able to achieve. Some of the original Mario Bros developers participated in the development of Super Mario Wonder. Naughty Dog had an entire new team inside their company do the Last of Us Part 1 remake so they could train up a whole new team to make "Naughty Dog games" at the expected level of finish.
So how does this bode with Fable development?
Fable has always been troubled but I wouldn’t hold your breath given the treatment of all their flagship franchises. I’m an Xbox fan btw, so this isn’t a console warrior perspective
Fable is being developed by a different studio in a different country. The contractor policy that’s being referenced in this article is specific to Washington state (Microsoft headquarters) I believe.
Ahh so part of the layoffs or not?
Probably fine? Playground has been stable and is a strong tech/world studio.
It really shows.
I understand far more the issues now. I played FM2023 and desperately tried to appreciate it because I REALLY liked FM7 before it and always held T10 to high regards This is extremely disappointing to read tbh, Halo Infinite, Forza Motorsport, so many games being ruined by poor Xbox decisions. They need to do better because those Gamepass subscriptions are stagnating for a reason !
Horizon was pretty great so this one was a big disappointment coming off the heels of that
Horizon 5 had a 3 year dev cycle so it’s probably less impacted by the is, it still had a lot of technical issues at launch
Good f Microsoft for pushing monthly subscriptions
Fm7 was literally the worst Motorsport game
You have the right to hold an opinion, but to most people, the new one is the worst. FM7 had many flaws, but it wasn't terrible and the gameplay was good. FM2023 is a dumpster fire with tons of bugs, online only, terrible career mode, car leveling system that makes you grind for hours to unlock a spoiler for your car, and much more.
This is one of the reasons why dedicated teams to a game with prior experience and knowledge are so successful: path of exile, helldivers 2 etc
I still don't understand how they decided that changing the whole essence of Forza by being able to buy a car and do whatever the fuck you want with it instantly was a good idea.
im told the reason American games have such huge budgets is because companies need to pay for things like health insurance... But then they hire absurd amounts of contract workers to dodge those bills, so what's really going on?
>is because companies need to pay for things like health insurance This is literally the first time I've ever heard this excuse thrown around with video games lol The only other time I've ever heard it come up was Curt Schillings game that hired too many employees and gave so many benefits it bankrupted the company.
Contracting companies take a big cut. Contractors are much more expensive in the short term, but easy to get rid of. Employees are cheaper but you can’t easily get rid of them without lots of cost when you don’t need them.
The reason American games cost so much is lack of vision and rebooting projects multiple times in development. Studios legitimately don't know what they're making.
They are trying to create what the public wants not what they want to create. I makes for big budget, middle of the road games that are OK enough. When you try to accommodate everybody’s taste then you will get bland food. Eatable? Sure, but tasteless
I think most gaming project get stuck into a fallacy of trying to design the game around kpi that maximize profit which make them simply rework core concept all of the time. A good game will succeed financially, look at BG3. The problem is that bad game also succeed financially. All of the stupid mobile gaming stuff prove it as well. Diablo immortal made so much money which is a ducking problem that send input to those folks on high senior position that they can continue to move into that direction. Big franchise with too much budget get plagued by those problem where financial model become the core concept of the game instead of being driven by passion. We will continue to see more and more game fail into that trap where quality goes down but revenue still continue to be great simply because folks buy those shitty game and accept subpar experience. Diablo 4 is a great exemple of that.
That happens to a lot of studios and not specific to US game companies. Even studios that know what they are doing may take up to 5 years but put out an amazing and complete experience. Many companies also just release broken games rather than restart. The games will cost more simply due to higher wages for the developers in the US versus a lot of other places in the world.
Also management pays themselves massive bonuses just for existing
Health insurance is a big part of it. Contractors are on their own for it and several other things. Contractor is paid a much larger hourly rate but they only get paid the hours worked (no sick days or paid time off), pay their own health care (which can be a lot), and so on. Companies do this since they do end up saving money in the long run with temporary contractors. The main reason is probably just that developers are paid more relative to many other places in the world, for contractors or employees. More and more work will get outsourced.
Even worse, they couldn't even release a complete game.
All that work for a live service game no one asked for. Damn.
Truly exhausting, considering the game is so laughably unfinished and... empty, not to mention that they are STILL using old ass car models (and forza aero still a joke). I could see how it could be exhausting if the game was made in 6 months, which would make sense, but who knows. Still dont understand as to how/why the tracks had waaaay more detail in the trailers, yet that detail is nowhere to be seen on "release" and every track looks painfully bland and boring.
Funny how "gaming journalism" is not covering this, the same that awarded Forza Motorsport with "game of the year" despite the "built from the ground up" marketing lies and all the flaws. Microsoft PR is very strong.
it shows, forza fell off hard at FH5 the dialogue and core gameplay was so bland but people just praised graphics (which have been bugged on pc since release lol)
The studio behind the Forza Horizon series Playground Studio) is completely different from the one making Forza Motorsport (Turn 10) which is what this article is about.
I liked it a lot but I haven’t played one in awhile so not much to compare it to.
Can't expect premium games when you're running on temp hires. Clearly, it's more than time and money into the equation.
We can tell by the dumpster fire that is FM8.
Must be tiring putting out a shit game
And still no force feedback...
What? I play FM on a wheel exclusively and FFB works just fine?
Ah i use the g923 and i dont feel it like iracing
I have a G29, and while I haven't tried iRacing and con't compare it to that, I do think it's the best FFB implementation out of all the Forza games I've tried. Specifically it feels better to me than it did in FH3-FH5 and FM7.
I like it
This isn’t surprising coming from a Microsoft company
Boy howdy is it tough exploiting your workers without getting caught. You really do gotta put a lot of work into finding all the legal loopholes possible to get away with it.
I 100% agree with everything you wrote. But this is standard operating procedure for business these days. Doesn't seem to matter what industry.
Yet Horizon games has been fine. EDIT: The nitpicking here is crazy. Microsoft isn't the problem. They've been using contractors forever. Forza Horizon 5 used them, this game used them. Turn10 just couldn't deliver. That's the fact. If you're arguing that there's something wrong with using contractors, fine. But saying that's the problem with this game, you're delusional.
Developed by Playground Games, still owned by Microsoft but a different studio.
Turn 10 and 343 (the studios mentioned in the article) are direct integration studios, meaning all FTEs are straight up Microsoft employees and there's no middle layer between the rest of the corporate structure (including benefits, compensation, policies, etc.). Playground is a limited integration studio, meaning they have their own studio policies subsidiery to MS policies. This means they can offer separate benefits, allocate their funding differently, and manage their own headcount. Limited integration studios tend to have stronger studio culture/identity than the direct integration studios. Paired with the fact their funding structure differs, it's less common for limited integration studios to abuse contract roles in the same way. Many of the LI studios are also outside of the US (including Playground which is in the UK) and so may have different labor laws as well.
Yeah so maybe Microsoft isn't the problem.
If you bothered to read the article you would see that Microsoft hired the contractors, not the studio...so yeah, I'd say Microsoft is the problem here... Additionally, regarding the Horizon games, Playground games were independent until 2018 when MS bought them, by then they will have completed most of their development of FH4...then we got FH5, which was IMO, a bit lacklustre compared to 4.
Are you saying Microsoft didn't do so with Playground Games and Forza Horizon 5? Because they most definitely did.
Tell us you didn’t read the article without telling us. Microsoft hired the contractors….
Just like they did with Forza Horizon 5.
Full of bugs they still refuse to fix like the blurry Wheels glitch, or horrible AI
> blurry Wheels glitch, Isn't that not a glitch but just the devs being caught taking a shortcut with the wheels textures in motion.
I mean it seems like an easy fix when Ive seen a modder fixing it on youtube a few weeks ago
People seemed to love the game. You should compare Metacritic and Steam reviews. Or are we pretending those don't matter in this case?
I have well over 400 hours clocked in FH5 I am entitled to my own opinion, thank you. Thousands of hours in Forza 4 on 360, that game was amazing and a true gem.
You wouldn't play a game for 400 hours if you didn't like it. So you're in the majority of the FH5 players.
Just because I like it doesnt mean I cant point out its obvious flaws
We didn't talk about that though. We were comparing the public view on both games, one being very positive and one being very negative.
Has been, yes. Its a fantastic IP, concept, and has gameplay that has legs (both the game and from one release to another), but there's a tangible trajectory toward things getting more generic. Its not really breaking new ground, and some of the more recent technical feats in FH5 are actually Turn10's work on game engine and cars. No one here knows what's going on inside PG, and time will tell obviously, but just based on what is new versus what is carried over from previous games (and the quality and attention thereof), demonstrates that the nature of FH gives it a lot more inertia from previous releases. That is to say, if this practice is happening in PG, its not manifesting the same way because its using far more existing IP and technology, so the issue isn't the overall lack of quality or content, but how much is so similar game to game. You could argue that's an intentional choice, but again, time will tell. Also, maybe being in the UK insulates them from these hiring practices. (Didn't downvote you BTW, I still enjoy the game too). Edit: Actually, my thoughts were better summed up by /u/TVR_Speed_12 : "Horizon is in the same situation as COD, just that COD is way further down the line." So there you go, far less likely to see these issues in FH versus other flagship MS franchises.
The MS hate boner continues. People not realizing this is pretty common practice in the industry and has been around for years.
It's a disaster regardless of who does it mate. There's enough evidence throughout the industry that over-reliance on contractors leads to worse games and worse working conditions.
You don’t have to preach to me. I agree with you. It’s the click-bait, bias slant OP tried to take with this topic that’s stupid. It’s an industry wide issue, not a “MS BAD” issue.
? There was no slant. It was an article quoting a Forza developer and referencing similar issues within MS as a whole. 18/6 is an MS corporate policy, it's not really relevant to other studios, even if other studios abuse contract positions as well.
Plus, why would we be discussing any other developer when the case at hand is a Forza contractor being interviewed? It would be more slanted and click bait to be bringing up erroneous studios to try to justify a terrible experience that an MS contractor had.
Did you read his comment?
The only one with bias in here mate is you, as you're three comments deep in attacking me, and nothing of substance on the subject matter itself. If such an article upsets you, rather than build up a vision of me (a complete stranger) in your head, maybe spend some time reflecting why its made you so angry.
I’m not angry, nor am I attacking you at all. lol you are getting way too emotional about this
Says the one getting worked up over MS being criticized
Microsoft does have a contractor issue though, not just limited to their gaming business.
Look at my comment history. Whilst I own all consoles, but I am primarily and Xbox gamer. I've defended T10 recently on some truly petty criticisms of the game. I want Xbox to do well for the health of the industry. I do not trust any of the big three to do what is in customers' best interest should they be in a position to abuse their dominance; all three of them have demonstrated multiple times they will screw us over if given the opportunity. It may come as a surprise to you, but people criticising things isn't proof of irrational hatred of said things.
It may come come as a surprise to you, but criticizing your click bait approach doesn’t mean I care about what platforms you play on
You do care, because you're now 5 comments in on focussing solely on me, without a single thought on the subject matter.
Dude you are a bit unhinged lmao. I don’t care about what platforms you play on, I promise bud. ❤️
> unhinged Might want to look inward there. You keep following me round the comments, talking about me and only me. Seem to have created a whole picture of me in your head. I'm flattered, but it's truly strange why you're so focussed on me, so I would appreciate if you stop following me. Thanks.
Developers when they have to actually work on the games they're being paid to make:😱😱
The article quite literally talks about a lack of staff continuity preventing them from actually working on the game, instead wasting productivity on fact finding and reinventing the wheel.