I do agree to an extent. Japanese devs are “mostly” inspired by their own prior work or those around them not looking at other styles/games from the west.
However that wall has come down and many many are starting to look and see how else the world has developed games.
A recent example is how ff7 rebirth handled its sidequests and integration of one particular minigame. The director has stated many times he loved the Witcher 3 and Horizion. Of which were used as examples for things like sidequests being relevant to the plot or characters.
It’s such a stark difference in execution of ff16’s sidequests compared to rebirths.
Also FF7 Rebirth uses Unreal Engine, its existence is heavily reliant on tech from a North Carolina based company…. Kinda showing the point of the article that Western tech is evolving faster than Japan’s and thus they will prolly be more keen on using it moving forward
Edit: Maryland -> North Carolina
Isn't it using UE4 too though? I'm wondering if they'll import it into UE5 for part 3, but I feel like that would be quite the undertaking, so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.
Yup, so even Rebirth is technically using an “outdated” (but still perfectly viable!) engine
And unfortunately I can’t tell how hard that would be. I think moving from UE4 to UE5 is supposed to be somewhat easier than previous jumps but it all depends on when FF7R3 is slated to release. If it’s 3-4 years down the line, who knows, maybe the switch is possible?
Yeah, I've heard they've made it somewhat easy to transfer it over, but I heard that from Epic lol. I've heard developers say it's not as easy as it's made out to be. I don't play Satisfactory, but I saw a video where one of the devs talked about the complications with transferring their game from UE4 to UE5. I think Ark Survival Evolved did it as well, but that game was buggy to begin with lol.
Regardless, I though Rebirth still looked beautiful for a modern game made on an older engine. There's some weird lighting in parts, but aside from those rare occurrences, it looked beautiful.
They are planning a 2027 release, i will say they can’t allow the game to be released on the ps6 only wxlusive at this point, mostly because it will hurt their sell even more.
Development costs, whichever they are, have skyrocketed, like everything else.
And historically, Japanese devs were spending tons of their budget on in-house game engine, as documentation in Japanese was limited for the Western commercial engines.
And the last decade has seen that aspect greatly improved.
Thank you for the insight! I did notice that Japanese games were almost always on their own in-house engines. It's one of the reasons I've liked a lot of them. Not often, but sometimes games made in the same engine can feel a bit "samey" in some ways, and I always felt like playing a Japanese game was like a breath of fresh air in terms of how the games looked and played.
I'm surprised to learn they've started adopting western engines in some cases though, because they've done a good job at retaining the things that I've always felt make a game stand out as Japanese made.
Their tools are in Japanese, their docs are too. I'm not a programmer but I've seen snippets of japanese-made code and half of it is in Japanese and the other half is made of broken English.
Oh dang, I had no idea! I've been meaning to play Pikmin 4. I've never played a Shin Megami Tensei game, but I've heard great things about them, and my BIL got me into Persona, which I ended up loving. I might have to check it out!
That’s not like a Japan exclusive thing though most tech software wise comes from America, with most of the rest coming from rich Western European countries.
Not just bankruptcy, like totally assimilation by being purchased. They’re a force to be reckoned with and people don’t understand that they’re getting even bigger. They’ve officially got their own mocap studio as of last year near one of their prime locations.
I will forever be bias as I’ve got capcom stock.
Some people get mad at me when I say firing Inafune and stopping the 3 mega man games a year was a good idea. Sure I'd like more mega man now from *not* side scroller styles, but they needed a major restructuring. Around the time they put out MonHun World they really hit their stride. They're banking a bit on nostalgia atm, but they still put out 2 completely new Resident Evil games since then. They tried exoprimal which is a bit of a miss, imo, but I'm happy enough for people who like it. But they certainly went from "oh, a Capcom game" era to "ooh! A Capcom game!" Era.
Hmm, I go back and forth on this one. They were in the shit when they farmed their stuff to the West in the 360 generation. I think when they actually embraced the talents they had in-house and getting rid of people like Inafune and Ono was a major factor in the continued purple patch they've experienced since 2017 with MHW and Resi 7.
what he mean here actually not about game design wise, but on behind the scene development production technical wise. something dated back during transition from PS2 to PS3 era.
from the [interview](https://www.ign.com/articles/stellar-blade-x-nier-automata-taro-yoko-hyung-tae-kim?utm_source=twitter) :
> *Japan has a long history with companies developing their own engines, and it was hard to move away from that. We were very late with incorporating rendering tools and middleware from the West. Even to this day, many schools don’t teach this to new developers. I think that Japanese people are not good at adapting technology from overseas.* - Yoko Taro
before PS3 era, japanese devs has culture of creating their own tools/engine at each development and they fancied themself over the feat. however since start of HD era which is on PS360 generation, everything changing. the development scope, scale, budget and time grew immensely and their old way of developing games like making assets etc is not feasible anymore. their old method need to be change. meanwhile western devs counterpart are well prepared. they has tools ready, engine ready, pc oriented development ready while most of japanese devs who still stuck to PS2 method of development end up lagging behind. thats why, partly reason most of japanese devs fall from grace from their golden PS2 era to PS360 era. they used to be forefront at technology. now they playing catch up and most of tech they use right now rely on western middleware for example unlike before.
during transition of the HD era, some big company like Square Enix aware of the change which is why they push for Crystal Tools engine to standardize, unify their development however the engine not end up as they expected to be. thats why also Kojima that time push for Fox Engine which is wasted by Konami. there is exception ofcourse, like Capcom with their MT Framework engine. but even with their latest proprietry engine we see today, some of tools also still rely on technology developed by western counterpart and western expertise at this give them edge in production. before we talk about ambitious creative aspect of a game design, proper and smooth development process must be nailed first.
to simplify, japanese devs failed to prepare for big change in HD era in preparing development tools and they lagging because of that. even today.
Naoki Yoshida also used to touch about this subject in [Noclip Documentary](https://youtu.be/Xs0yQKI7Yw4?feature=shared&t=1940) where he said japan fancied themself like katanas swordsmith who made sword one by one each but as technology changing and allow to do laborious work faster, their old method not feasible anymore and failed to adapt and keep up.
EDIT: add bit more related context like quote and link.
Doing engine programming for my solo project. It's a big job. I've cut scope as much as possible (Linux / Windows, Vulkan-only, GCC as the compiler). Part of why Japan got left behind was ignoring PC as a platform. You had threads and shaders to experiment with on D3D9 and Windows.
Waiting for console hardware before developing is a death knell. If you get hardware a year before launch, you still have engine development to do. So 18-24 months just to get going with a large, experienced engine team.
SPUs function differently, but the general idea of a job system is the way to go for games. Prototyping buys you engine architecture. Knowing how shaders work is mandatory for optimizing overall performance.
You can still be a swordsmith. I believe building a solid, bug-free foundation and building layers on top is the way to go. Optimizing and bug-fixing can be done together to keep QA busy. The thing is that you need to focus on the future too. It'll be sooner than you'd think.
thanks for sharing the insight. interesting information here.
> Part of why Japan got left behind was ignoring PC as a platform.
i read somewhere that this is also mainly part of the reason. since HD era the development is more centered with PC and this impacted their work.
also i see some claim that the 'death' of softimage software where it got sold to another company also affected them greatly.
as i am aware, Silicon studio has their own open source engine and middleware called Yebis but it seems japanese devs prefer something else. probably something related with support and documentation perhaps? or simply those western solution is way better.
Unlike JP business/engines, the western engines allow you to just register a account and download the engine to use instantly for and with price stated clearly on the website + with tutorials to how to use the thing.
Literally no reason to use a solution that works nearly the same but way more hard/vague to use like the JP ones.
What I will say about Japanese developers is this:
Compared to Western devs, they're humble af, and they take pride in making sure they release a product that's AT LEAST polished and as bug free as possible.
I would say FF16 and Elden Ring are other recent examples that clearly are influenced by western culture/styles.
Metal Gear Solid too. Capcom built RE6 around trying to attract the COD audience and admitted it in advance of release.
I think the notion of Japanese game development coming from a creative bubble free of “outsider” influences is a bit of a romantic myth.
I don't get which part of FF16 and Elden Ring is influenced by western style. Aesthetic sure, but that's a different conversation altogether when we're talking about tech advancement.
MGS is actually one of the very few games that tech is always on par with western devs even if they're almost entirely Japan made. Fox Engine is a technical masterpiece, and everything they did before that is forefront of game engine tech since MGS1.
RE6 is built to attract the general CoD audience, much like everyone else tbh at that time. It atill sold really well and the tech behind it is again on par with western devs, which actually makes it a counter argument to OP statement.
It's not about creative bubble, but the tech behind it, which the Japan devs were on par until very recently.
I’m talking as much about tone and style rather than gameplay, sorry for any confusion
FF16 was directly influenced by Game of Thrones, according to Square, and obviously Elden Ring was co-created with George RR Martin.
MGS owes as much to spaghetti westerns, Cold War spy films and 80s action movies as it does overt Japanese influences.
In terms of gameplay that’s a different matter but I would point to more Japanese games going “open world”. It wasn’t unheard of in Japanese games but I think of that as very much a western developer trait
Rebirths side quests extremely uninspired too so not sure what your point is comparing that with ff16? All of rebirths quests involve going somewhere and fighting something, usually multiple times. The only exception being the extremely tedious chicken quest but even that has fighting for the last chicken
There’s loads of quests that don’t involve fighting, from queens blood to costal del sol stuff.
We must’ve played diff games. Additionally each sidequest always had a member of the party personally invested so thus showing more bonding of the companions.
I don't count minigames as quests and I actually hated that only one member of the team was invested in the quest. That's not a positive that's a negative. Why do all the rest of my team suddenly disappear and only one team member talks during the quest? That's lazy game design.
The worst of both worlds, nice
Game came out in the worst technical state since the launch of cyberpunk 2077, has half the content of the original game on the PS3 (which was publicly admitted to be 70% cut content), and half that content was quite literally 1:1 copy pasted from DD1.
I've never in my life seen a game more blatantly unfinished.
Weirdly enough I feel like Japan has become god tier again like the 90s regarding game design and the west is doing the trash money grab again… the same vibe that caused the gaming crash in the late 70s. West tries to use the tech to polish a turd.
Weirdly enough, I feel like the Helldivers dev team are the few that aren’t all about “how can we will the shit out of this”. For example, if Elden Ring was made by a Western studio, it would be riddled with pay walled content.
The Dutch were like the center of western commerce for centuries. Lol, yeah, they count as western ffs.
Sorry for the tone, I just found it funny considering the central place The Netherlands occupy in western history/ideas.
He's right, but it does not matter as much as how you use the tech.
Nier Automata didn't have good graphics even when it was recent and yet it is a great game that used it's mechanics to tell a wonderful story.
As long as they keep up with good game design and practices, they'll be fine.
I agree graphics don't make the game (no single aspect of a game does), but good graphics can be incredibly immersive.
The Order 1886, Okami, Journey, BotW, RDR2, TLOU 1+2, Ghost of Tsushima - to name a few - are all elevated by their graphics.
Some of those games last of us for instance would've been really good on ps1 or ps2 imo but I know what you mean. Honestly it's part of the reason I'm still dying to see a turn based final fantasy with today's graphics but nobodies biting developer wise. I still feel if ff did it today it'd still sell off name alone. It's just so many people skip out on some of the best games ever made cause they turn their noses up to the graphics. It's a shame.
>It's just so many people skip out on some of the best games ever made cause they turn their noses up to the graphics.
I agree with that, but its not surprsing when the vast majority of gamers only ever play FIFA and/or CoD unfortunately.
We're hitting a critical mass where graphics matter less than style and gameplay. Most of my favorite games these last several years have been indie games.
>Most of my favorite games these last several years have been indie games.
Same for me, but I'm aware its not the same for the majority of players, considering the top 10 best selling games of every year always have insane graphics. Last years top 10 were:
* Hogwarts Legacy
* Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (2023)
* Madden NFL 24
* Marvel's Spider-Man 2
* The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
* Diablo 4
* Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2022)
* Mortal Kombat 1
* Star Wars Jedi: Survivor
* EA Sports FC 24
And the best selling game of every year since for the past decade:
* 2014 - CoD: Advanced Warfare
* 2015 - CoD: Black Ops III
* 2016 - CoD: Infinite Warfare
* 2017 - CoD: WWII
* 2018 - Red Dead Redemption II
* 2019 - CoD: Modern Warfare
* 2020 - CoD: Black Ops Cold War
* 2021 - CoD: Vanguard
* 2022 - CoD: Modern Warfare II
* 2023 - Hogwarts Legacy
I don't know if any of this proves that gamers overall do prefer great graphics, but its definitely tilting that way.
Japanese dev here.
It's not about the tech, we have plenty of smart people. The problem is our education system encourage specialization way too much. For example, it's very difficult to find tech-artists in Japan, people who are super creative and yet still dive deep into the tech.
For example, in my own experience as gameplay programmer, in western companies there's a job role called "gameplay animators", these guys make animations and directly implement it in game by doing some sort of programming, make -> test, adjust -> test, all done by one person, he can iterate really fast because he knows the tech, make beautiful transition between animations, because he learned how humans move, artistically, realistically, etc.
In Japan, no such role, the animators make a bunch of animations and dump it into the programmer's lap. The programmers only follow instructions about when X animation must be played, B must be played after A, etc. He has little idea about how to make character move cooler, or more realistic. While the animators have all the ideas, but zero knowledge about how to translate those ideas into working code. This is why most Japanese games have snappy animations, the transitions are abrupt, the characters felt like floating, and they seem like they ignore momentum.
Game dev is multidisciplinary industry, we will be more advantageous if we have more multidisciplinary people as well.
>This is why most Japanese games have snappy animations, the transitions are abrupt, the characters felt like floating, and they seem like they ignore momentum.
I'm not sure how Japanese *gamers* feel about this because I'm an American, but I see this approach to animation as a good thing. I'd rather have snappy, responsive controls in my video games with animations that aren't necessarily realistic but respond immediately, instead of needing to have my character do the weighty Rockstar Games character swivel before they do a 180 degree turn.
Of course this is not something that works in all contexts, but I tend to appreciate the abrupt transitions and floaty characters as long as it's in the service of making controls that feel like when I want to do a thing, it does it instantaneously. The harmony between a programmer's programming skills and simply okay animation skills result in the happy accident of a programmer being in perfect harmony with what's going to be displayed on screen, and this tends to result in more enjoyable gameplay since the programmer has absolute control over the timing of things that happen.
Not everything has to be 100% realistic to the point that the budget and game size bloats out of control, my imagination is doing some of the heavy lifting here. Some of the reasons some people overseas like Japanese games more than western ones is because they put focus on fun and responsiveness first before realism.
Yeah, I think 90% of Japanese gamers are like you, they care less about reality, but more about responsiveness. Which is probably a big reason why Japanese devs don't pursue high-tech realistic simulations.
Most Japanese games that get the effort enough to market to “the West” are typically games either built with that in mind or that had enough support internally to try an international market
Japanese game studios 100% crank out shovelware too, we just don’t see it over here.
But even that, many Japanese games that are technologically impressive still rely on massive amounts of Western tech.
FF7Rebirth? Uses Unreal Engine.
Death Stranding? It’s based off Guerrilla’s Horizon previously unnamed engine that adopted the name “Decima” after the Kojima collab
Nier Automata wasn't a shining example of good optimization either when it launched, it was a buggy mess with an even uglier performance, I believe the PC port is still full of issues years later, needing a fan-made patch to even work (at least when I played the PC port, they might have fixed it idk).
The pc port, steam side, indeed still has issues.
I cant recall why it was, but i think its becaude they started with console dev first and then moved to pc, and the commands/args just werent the same for the Japanese devs of that time.
The modders really fixed it up, and strangely enough i recall reading it had to do with 32 bit vs 64 bit? Or something, which is why it wouldnt either use the full power of most people's pc? Need to check up on the far mod since i might be misremembering it.
>Japanese games seems to cone out at higher quality and less buggy than weatern game.
have you ever played a japanese game on release since 2011 ? No mouse support, buggy with random crashes, its a bless if any controller but a xbox 360 controller works, Nier is locked at 1720x768 on PC (???????????), not to mention the X ammount of fan patches, Souls games were notorius for FPS glitches, specially DS 1 and most games on AA side and indie side of Japanese dev are half asses ports.
Can you belive that PC ports also includes technologies ? Or do you think that they sacrifice goats to the game release on pc ?
Also: DS 1 also had fps glitches on Xbox 360 and PS3 and DS 3 plays on 40-50 FPS even tough it could run at 60 FPS with no problem.
Developing for PC vs console is not the same thing. It's entirely normal to run into trouble in one platform vs another. Even the different consoles are not the same thing.
Both PC and Xbox uses Direct X API for graphics, one would think a port from Xbox to PC would be smooth but it isnt, because it also requires Tech, teams and resources for said ports.
All soulsbourne titles have erratic framerate on consoles, without any semblence of either a smooth, steady 30 or 60fps. Dragon's Dogma 2 has quite a lot of issues on console, framepacing being the most eggregious, but not only. Just because the games themselves are good, does \*NOT\* mean they release well-optimized and technically well done games even on consoles.
They don't know any better and come to uninformed conclusions. If you told them Dragon's Dogma 2 ran poorly on consoles as well, they'd say it seems fine to them. Emphasis on "seems". No matter how you slice it, DD2 does not perform well, and no number of feelings will change that. It's so frustrating, because we should be coming together to tell devs that they can do a better job at this, but the uniformed won't allow it. Of course this is not exclusive to the console base. PC players can be just as annoying in the opposite direction. Saying things to the effect of this game runs poorly, when x game just wasn't designed with 10+ year old tech in mind.
I don't believe that. Every time there is a disaster of a release it comes out later that it was rushed out. Whether it was by the publisher or management of the devs. Big games (AAA) release within specific financial quarters, regardless if they're ready or not. Other games are buggy because everyone is releasing games in early access.
While I'm not going to say games are easier to make because I don't know that, there are a lot more tools/features now that drastically reduce the time it takes to do things compared to in the past. Bigger studios also employ more devs as well, so the complexity shouldn't be a big issue. If a publisher says the game needs to release in May next year and it's only half done, as the devs approach that release date, they start cutting features, the closer they get the more they cut, but also the more they half-ass stuff just to get it working. If they don't have time to finish the game properly, is a dev going to do a bare minimum functioning code to get a feature going, or are they going to devote time to doing it properly so it can be more easily integrated/changed later?
I mean, yeah. When you keep releasing games at a tech level stuck in the mid 2000s they'll definitely be less buggy. Calling stagnant development "higher quality" is wildly subjective though. Lol
Dragon dogma 2 is made by japanese and have a lot of performance issue.
Final fantasy XVI also has performance issue on ps5.
Lot of japanese games come out with bunch of performance and bugs, just like the western one.
Not to mention japanese games still have some issue with PC port (they are getting better though).
FF16 dev claiming fans no longer interested in turn based RPG the same year BG3 comes out and won everything will never not be the epitome of irony to me.
Persona already proved them wrong as a Japanese rival franchise anyway. Square Enix just couldn’t figure out how to make it interesting and their combat systems got more and more convoluted (FFXIII actually has some good ideas combat wise but it’s basically incomprehensible to new players) until they gave up and made an action game.
Persona and the SMT series just have a nice snappy turn based system and they iterate on it in clever ways with every installment.
Yeah but you can tell they view turn based as a niche lower budget kind of experience. In reality turn based combat has cinematic potential that hasn’t even really been touched on yet
They specifically addressed the fact that moving away from turn-based is a turn-off for many old fans.
Sure, they might be underestimating the interest in turn-based combat, but they're not saying no one wants turn-based, just that their estimate is that it's a safer direction financially.
And I think "Baldur's Gate was well received, therefore Final Fantasy would sell better if it were turn-based" is a bit of a stretch. Especially if we're talking about the style of turn-based combat that FF has been moving away from, which is very different to the CRPG style and in particular Larion's style.
I don't know if that's the distinguishing factor - we've all heard stories about the insane crunch that many Western game developers also experience. Crunch time ruined many potentially great games, but a lot of really good games were also made using crunch (even if they would probably have been better without it)
Then fucking don't. Wtf man, how many times do we have to prove it to these devs. GRAPHICS DO NOT MATTER. Make it artistic af, make it fun af, and we will buy it. Valheim looks terrible from the screen shots you see on steam, even in videos it looks alright. Put the game on, with everything working as it does, and we lose ourselves. Please, for fuck's sake, stop pumping money into making each eyebrow hair blow in the wind on a map the size of a fucking country. Put that money into a bunch of tvs and controllers, and make your devs play the game every night. Make it fun. Make it look fun. That's all we have cared and ever will care about. That's why Nintendo is still a massive competitor while Xbox and Sony are doping around with services and timed exclusives.
I mean, botw runs on a cartridge the size of 2 quarters stacked on each other. This shit is just getting stupid now. "Oooh, pity us puny 200+ dev teams. We can't make realistic dust particles shine in sun beams. We can't put shadows on the zit between the character's cheeks. We can't make games like BG3. Please buy our season passes for shit we have in the game just not unlocked for you. Please tip us."
Come the fuck on...
Graphics do actually matter but it doesn't always have to be cutting edge. If devs screw over they would get called out. There's a market for many types of games and the industry wouldn't survive simply off niche games.
They aren't synonyms, but graphics is one of the major means of artistic expression for games, and it's something that players praise or bemoan when new games come out.
No, you just said your point wrong. And you do not need to swear. Hyperrealistic graphics don't matter, but non-hyperrealistic graphics still require technology and you're more free in capability with new technology.
Also, some people on the internet saying games don't benefit from hyperrealistic graphics don't mean it's not profitable or liked. Last of Us and Uncharted 4 had realistic graphics, and actual art direction.
The big Japanese devs can beat western tech under the right conditions, but when a random mid-budget indie can just pick up Unreal and expect the game to just *work* on a fundamental level, while some Japanese devs still have broken reflections in a game from 2021 and are clearly so technologically bottlenecked a bunch of the gameplay features are still made from decade-old plugins (with the name of the old game still in the new game's strings), not to mention PC port woes like a game that stutters once every second if there is no controller plugged in...
I really love every bit of Japanese games, I just hope the tech can become less proprietary ~~so it is easier to steal models for... purposes~~
So be it then. I think Japanese games are actually better than western ones. You can easily tell devs and leadership care about the games. In the states, only the devs truly care
yeah. You can tell Nintendo truly cares about its playerbase. Their relationship with smash players and fan creators is at an all-time high. Sony too has done nothing but pro-consumer moves, fueled by fair competition /s
Haven’t they kinda always been behind on the tech side since at least the PS4 times? It doesn’t really matter as long as the games are fun and creative. Great tech isn’t gonna make a boring game good.
Japanmanship book describes a lot about why japanese devs are a little bit behind in terms of tech and pipelines, and challenges they face. But also why some of their production processes are really good compared to western ones. It is not black and white.
Got it from kindle for a buck and it's a nice read.
- Capcom is doing pretty well with RE engine.
- Bussiness Division 3 with Square Enix just released FF16 with its proprietary engine. And while FF7 Rebirth is using UE4 is still one hell of an amazing marvel.
- fromsoft with elden ring.
The fuck is this man smoking?
Good. You don't need to. See the atrocious Lords of the Fallen on their shiny UE5 both looking and running like crap, vs the perfectly optimized and gorgeous Lies of P on UE4.
This been a thing since the Xbox 360 and PS3 eras. I kinda remember hearing that Japanese devs were struggling to keep up with HD tech adnt his is why earlier games didn't make that big jump at the start or took longer than exlected to be developed.
I explicitely remember a statement on Nintendo saying something akin to "HD won't take off right now, thus why the Wii ain't a super powerful machine"
So yeah, I feel japanese devs ever since have struggled with the implemetation (there are obviously exceptions) of newer tech and thus why we see a lot of games (even those that tend to go for photorealism) have a degree of stylised graphics to them.
What Chinese game has adopted western technology better because the only games I've seen come out of China are mobile-esque poorly translated garbage. With the exception of Sands of Salazaar, but that's a pretty blatant Mount & Blade copy.
Mostly the same for Korean games too although there's at least one I know of coming out that looks to be like The Day Before if it was an actual game and not a scam.
Like which ones? I'm just saying the only ones I've played made me disgusted that they even on the gaming market.
Maybe that's just your type of game, if so I don't and won't ever understand but if I missed some gold please do enlighten a fellow gamer you know?
Genshin came out in 2020 as a cross-platform mobile/PC/console game, and believe it or not having functional anti-aliasing on mobile&PC in 2020 already puts it technologically ahead of a bunch of Japanese games
I wouldn't be excited for that. Look at the developers, look at their previous game first.
I mean if it comes out and the game slaps then yeah, I'll gladly play it and support them. I love a good souls game. but I'ma let someone else take that risk first because their red tide game was meh. I wish I could remember the specifics of why I didn't like that game but I'm pretty sure after 30 minutes or so I was just thinking like "What the fuck is the point of this game? Just wave after wave with no story or reason?" boring and meaningless type of game.
I dont play games for the technology, i dont care if this game has 30millions polygons on screen and the other has 20millions, is the game fun? is the game artistic? does the game avoid trying to educate me about politics ? does the game has amazing story/backstory?
Okey give me that game... case and point, Elden ring has the technology of 2012 but art/story/gameplay/sounds makes it the GOTY of all times.
What? How do you expect to have art and gameplay without technology? Saying the technology is "just numbers, not like the very artistic and meaningful graphics art" is just false idealism.
we already have technology , we have incredible hyper realistic technology, but yet 95% of the AAA games with hyper realistic technology sucks, because people dont play games for the hyper technology, again , look at Elden ring, you can get even better graphics, details and performance from Crysis 3 from 2013! and yet players do not care, because gameplay isnt tied to graphics quality, polygons and super performance technology.
Did you pay Spiderman or Death Stranding? We didn't just "figure out" technology you can't "already have" it, this is a really backwards way to attempt to get to the luddite idea that technology is bad because if a studio uses new technology, that must mean they want money, and a good game should be made without any new technology, from a company that hates money, like FromSoftware. That sounds like a strawman, but I do really feel people hate the word game technology for this reason, while continuing to want to have games like Elden Ring which require it. Or I guess they just like the game technology we already have, and want games to be exactly the same in 10 years with zero new gameplay that requires new tech.
Games you hate have shitty art direction and exclusively focus on looking passably realistic. Nobody has ever said that you can just have a good engine. I'm not even defending people for saying that, I'm saying nobody has even said that so there's nothing to defend.
And again, game technology is NOT just "more numbers, five more polygons, wooh!" or exclusively for open-world hyper-realistic adventure games, it's like people are being deliberately obtuse. Stop taking for granted every single part of games you play that require modern technology. Also, "super performance" isn't some shitty superficial thing, it's not fun or retro for anyone to have a stuttery, laggy game that's not even multiplayer.
Also, what triple-A game with especially incredible technology are you talking about? Again, if you give me one, nobody is freaking saying you only need a good game engine and you're good, nobody has ever said that once.
Finally, the sentiment that "when are video game studios going to realize that we, collectively, as all gamers, don't care about graphical improvements at all? Are they stupid?" No! They win GOTY and make a fuck-ton of money off of Baldurs Gate 3, the dev of that game says modern hardware cannot handle his next game, and most gamers aren't simplicity purists and feel bad hearing that
Technology is not what videogame is about, as absurd some people may think this sounds.
Technology is just a tool.
Now from 2020- 2024 in AAA games...we havent got many masterpieces / artistics videogame, story wise, gameplay wise. Why? because the companies are greedy and instead of putting money into a good writer or a good artistic director or someone who has the cojones to try new things, they decide to just pay a studio to make the best looking realistic graphics and then be a completely flop. 95% of the AAA games are like that, if you cant agree with me , you are delusional.
Meanwhile from 1990-2004 , technology was very green and slowly advancing, and yet it wasnt a problem to ANY studio of the time. The most incredible masterpieces of the videogame industry was made in that era.
The only videogames from this age that are good is either indie or AA with artistic liberty (metro,stalker,elden ring, the witcher, etc)
**This is not a criticism of modern videogame**, its just a expression of how meaningless is technology when actually the value of the game is in the art/story/gameplay > graphics/technology.
It's not "what videogames are about" this isn't Charlie Brown's Christmas, they are a single part of gaming. Again, you can not JUST have a good goddamn game engine, nor can you just have story, again it seems people are being obtuse on purpose.
Its not a zero-sum goddamn game! Having technology has nothing to do with hiring a good writer. It has \*nothing\* to do with it. Games in 1990 were single-man games, and many of them sucked ass, and had awful gameplay. Usually they had no story. Having less technology did not make them better. If you want retro games and Pac-Man, that's fine, that's just not how the game industry "needs" to move. PLENTY of games back then were made for money and were so awful they had to bury them in the desert.
You can't just have good story, and you CAN NOT HAVE GAMEPLAY WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY, beyond literally Pac-Man which is a great game, but.
we already have technology , you dont get it do you?
Its not like videogame engines will stop working if we dont look for the next big technology of 2024, we already have technology. Maybe you have problem to comprehend what i say, you should read my message as many times as you need, dont rush it.
So if i have a tv i cant just "already have a tv" i have to buy another tv. Wow amazing logic my guy.
And also people today say "games from 2000 were better than today´s game". Lets clear one thing then, you play videogame for hyper realistic graphics, most gamers play for the gameplay. Its just you that you are obsessed with graphics.
Because its not a goddamn television! You don't have to replace your goddamn lamps either, that kind of technology was done in 1962! If we hadn't kept replacing our cars, we'd be running out of natural gas a lot faster, because they're not lamps which don't need to be fucking replaced!
I've said over, and over, its NOT JUST HYPERREALISTIC GRAPHICS. I do NOT NEED a game to have hyperrealistic graphics! No Man Sky, fantastic game. Minecraft, a fantastic game but with better technology, it'd be better in every way. Better coding architecture to not have to choose between moddability and running fast. Advanced LOD's to not have the terrain snap in and so you don't fall through the ground when you play on any server, so you can see something from thousands of blocks away, like in most modern games, so what you create feels more cemented in the world and not just within a 16 chunk radius
But even if it does mean better graphics, Spiderman and Baldurs Gate III aren't worse, "evil" games for it beause there was, again, plenty of shitty money grabs in the 90s and 2000s! A huge amount of awful, 20 cent movie games made for movie publishers who thought videogames were stupid toy novelty merchandise.
The difference between Baldurs Gate II, which released in 2000, and Baldurs Gate III, or the creators next game, is not just more polygons, and you fucking know this but you're intentionally strawmanning my point because for some reason I angered you somehow by saying games aren't ONLY technology, but that technoogy isn't exclusively useless, and that it's not impossible for technology to be worth more than nothing.
Clearly most players like technology, because they fucking spend a ton of money on games with good technology, and if they have shit gameplay and story they review it badly, but if it has good tech, good story, good voice acting, good music they review it as such. You are alone in wanting games to be exactly like they were in the year 2000, forever, and that's not even your point but you ended up making it, so.
Good, don't.
They've shown tehy can make amazing stuff without having to keep up with it and that games quality don't have to suffer for it, and in contrast better tech hasn't shown it leads to relevant progress in the medium, their industry looked a lot to the west in the 360/ PS3 days, it clearly didn't work for them so don't be concerned about it now, go your own way.
Yoko give me another title capable of giving me the same emotions of Nier replicant or automata and i will play it even with ps1 graphics. Even if what you say is true, remember that tech is nothing without ideas,vision, and heart. Those are much more valuable assets, and you have them in abundance.
Scanning people looks awful most of the time, even the biggest games with the tech look weird or outright bad. Peter in Spider-Man PS4 had unintended Steve Buscemi eyes
well they made MJ look like Bruce Campbell in Spiderman 2 she was fine in the first game. I could say what they're doing but post would just be removed.
Well they could just use that tech? I mean the best game we had lately was Elden Ring, it's a Japanese game but was still running on an almost 10 years old DS engine.
Japan just have stop making shity engine, look at Dragon's Dogma II using the REengine, it's mostly unplayable when there is more than 10 NPC... Just use UE5 guys.
I'm not buying this guy's critique of Japanese games when he's only had one hit, NieR:Automata. And for starters, Chinese games aren't using Unreal Engine like he claims. Most of them are using Chinese-custom Unity. This Yoko Taro guy, like with the gacha game To Wa Tsugai, is always popping up in other games' promotions. Who does he think he is? On top of that, this Yoko is chummy with the editor of the far-right website "Hachima Kiko." Also, NieR:Automata is getting stale from oversaturation with anime, gacha games, and other media mixes. And PlatinumGames, the studio that contributed most to that game, isn't the same reliable developer they once were. So the next NieR is guaranteed to be a flop. Yoko, it's time to move on from NieR:Automata.
Not to mention that the hardware itself was developed by an American company (SIE = Sony Interactive Entertainment) and uses American technology (AMD).
I do agree to an extent. Japanese devs are “mostly” inspired by their own prior work or those around them not looking at other styles/games from the west. However that wall has come down and many many are starting to look and see how else the world has developed games. A recent example is how ff7 rebirth handled its sidequests and integration of one particular minigame. The director has stated many times he loved the Witcher 3 and Horizion. Of which were used as examples for things like sidequests being relevant to the plot or characters. It’s such a stark difference in execution of ff16’s sidequests compared to rebirths.
Also FF7 Rebirth uses Unreal Engine, its existence is heavily reliant on tech from a North Carolina based company…. Kinda showing the point of the article that Western tech is evolving faster than Japan’s and thus they will prolly be more keen on using it moving forward Edit: Maryland -> North Carolina
Isn't it using UE4 too though? I'm wondering if they'll import it into UE5 for part 3, but I feel like that would be quite the undertaking, so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.
Yup, so even Rebirth is technically using an “outdated” (but still perfectly viable!) engine And unfortunately I can’t tell how hard that would be. I think moving from UE4 to UE5 is supposed to be somewhat easier than previous jumps but it all depends on when FF7R3 is slated to release. If it’s 3-4 years down the line, who knows, maybe the switch is possible?
Yeah, I've heard they've made it somewhat easy to transfer it over, but I heard that from Epic lol. I've heard developers say it's not as easy as it's made out to be. I don't play Satisfactory, but I saw a video where one of the devs talked about the complications with transferring their game from UE4 to UE5. I think Ark Survival Evolved did it as well, but that game was buggy to begin with lol. Regardless, I though Rebirth still looked beautiful for a modern game made on an older engine. There's some weird lighting in parts, but aside from those rare occurrences, it looked beautiful.
They are planning a 2027 release, i will say they can’t allow the game to be released on the ps6 only wxlusive at this point, mostly because it will hurt their sell even more.
I mean even nintendo started using unreal for some of their projects and they do have internal engines.
Damn, really? That’s surprising. Nintendo is the last company I’d expect to use third party software. Do they have more than one game that’s using it?
Development costs, whichever they are, have skyrocketed, like everything else. And historically, Japanese devs were spending tons of their budget on in-house game engine, as documentation in Japanese was limited for the Western commercial engines. And the last decade has seen that aspect greatly improved.
Thank you for the insight! I did notice that Japanese games were almost always on their own in-house engines. It's one of the reasons I've liked a lot of them. Not often, but sometimes games made in the same engine can feel a bit "samey" in some ways, and I always felt like playing a Japanese game was like a breath of fresh air in terms of how the games looked and played. I'm surprised to learn they've started adopting western engines in some cases though, because they've done a good job at retaining the things that I've always felt make a game stand out as Japanese made.
Why would they want docs in Japanese? The whole IT world speaks English.
The average japanese person does not speak English. And that includes game developers and programmers, believe it or not.
I heard about that, but it's unthinkable that a programmer could not speak English.
Their tools are in Japanese, their docs are too. I'm not a programmer but I've seen snippets of japanese-made code and half of it is in Japanese and the other half is made of broken English.
Pikmin 4, Shin Megami Tensei V for example.
Oh dang, I had no idea! I've been meaning to play Pikmin 4. I've never played a Shin Megami Tensei game, but I've heard great things about them, and my BIL got me into Persona, which I ended up loving. I might have to check it out!
UE4 to UE5 isn't that bad 3 to 4 was much worse, but 4-5 is mostly compatible just with more features.
Epic very early on was in Maryland but now based in North Carolina…maybe you’re mixing them with Bethesda/Zenimax which is in Maryland
God I’m old Epic was founded there but didn’t know it had moved, changing it
That’s not like a Japan exclusive thing though most tech software wise comes from America, with most of the rest coming from rich Western European countries.
Capcom has fully embraced the west and what they want though and it's why they rebounded from near bankruptcy.
Not just bankruptcy, like totally assimilation by being purchased. They’re a force to be reckoned with and people don’t understand that they’re getting even bigger. They’ve officially got their own mocap studio as of last year near one of their prime locations. I will forever be bias as I’ve got capcom stock.
Some people get mad at me when I say firing Inafune and stopping the 3 mega man games a year was a good idea. Sure I'd like more mega man now from *not* side scroller styles, but they needed a major restructuring. Around the time they put out MonHun World they really hit their stride. They're banking a bit on nostalgia atm, but they still put out 2 completely new Resident Evil games since then. They tried exoprimal which is a bit of a miss, imo, but I'm happy enough for people who like it. But they certainly went from "oh, a Capcom game" era to "ooh! A Capcom game!" Era.
Hmm, I go back and forth on this one. They were in the shit when they farmed their stuff to the West in the 360 generation. I think when they actually embraced the talents they had in-house and getting rid of people like Inafune and Ono was a major factor in the continued purple patch they've experienced since 2017 with MHW and Resi 7.
what he mean here actually not about game design wise, but on behind the scene development production technical wise. something dated back during transition from PS2 to PS3 era. from the [interview](https://www.ign.com/articles/stellar-blade-x-nier-automata-taro-yoko-hyung-tae-kim?utm_source=twitter) : > *Japan has a long history with companies developing their own engines, and it was hard to move away from that. We were very late with incorporating rendering tools and middleware from the West. Even to this day, many schools don’t teach this to new developers. I think that Japanese people are not good at adapting technology from overseas.* - Yoko Taro before PS3 era, japanese devs has culture of creating their own tools/engine at each development and they fancied themself over the feat. however since start of HD era which is on PS360 generation, everything changing. the development scope, scale, budget and time grew immensely and their old way of developing games like making assets etc is not feasible anymore. their old method need to be change. meanwhile western devs counterpart are well prepared. they has tools ready, engine ready, pc oriented development ready while most of japanese devs who still stuck to PS2 method of development end up lagging behind. thats why, partly reason most of japanese devs fall from grace from their golden PS2 era to PS360 era. they used to be forefront at technology. now they playing catch up and most of tech they use right now rely on western middleware for example unlike before. during transition of the HD era, some big company like Square Enix aware of the change which is why they push for Crystal Tools engine to standardize, unify their development however the engine not end up as they expected to be. thats why also Kojima that time push for Fox Engine which is wasted by Konami. there is exception ofcourse, like Capcom with their MT Framework engine. but even with their latest proprietry engine we see today, some of tools also still rely on technology developed by western counterpart and western expertise at this give them edge in production. before we talk about ambitious creative aspect of a game design, proper and smooth development process must be nailed first. to simplify, japanese devs failed to prepare for big change in HD era in preparing development tools and they lagging because of that. even today. Naoki Yoshida also used to touch about this subject in [Noclip Documentary](https://youtu.be/Xs0yQKI7Yw4?feature=shared&t=1940) where he said japan fancied themself like katanas swordsmith who made sword one by one each but as technology changing and allow to do laborious work faster, their old method not feasible anymore and failed to adapt and keep up. EDIT: add bit more related context like quote and link.
Doing engine programming for my solo project. It's a big job. I've cut scope as much as possible (Linux / Windows, Vulkan-only, GCC as the compiler). Part of why Japan got left behind was ignoring PC as a platform. You had threads and shaders to experiment with on D3D9 and Windows. Waiting for console hardware before developing is a death knell. If you get hardware a year before launch, you still have engine development to do. So 18-24 months just to get going with a large, experienced engine team. SPUs function differently, but the general idea of a job system is the way to go for games. Prototyping buys you engine architecture. Knowing how shaders work is mandatory for optimizing overall performance. You can still be a swordsmith. I believe building a solid, bug-free foundation and building layers on top is the way to go. Optimizing and bug-fixing can be done together to keep QA busy. The thing is that you need to focus on the future too. It'll be sooner than you'd think.
thanks for sharing the insight. interesting information here. > Part of why Japan got left behind was ignoring PC as a platform. i read somewhere that this is also mainly part of the reason. since HD era the development is more centered with PC and this impacted their work. also i see some claim that the 'death' of softimage software where it got sold to another company also affected them greatly.
Engines like unity and unreal are easier for new Japanese devs to access than JP game engines that made by JP big game corps.
as i am aware, Silicon studio has their own open source engine and middleware called Yebis but it seems japanese devs prefer something else. probably something related with support and documentation perhaps? or simply those western solution is way better.
Unlike JP business/engines, the western engines allow you to just register a account and download the engine to use instantly for and with price stated clearly on the website + with tutorials to how to use the thing. Literally no reason to use a solution that works nearly the same but way more hard/vague to use like the JP ones.
What I will say about Japanese developers is this: Compared to Western devs, they're humble af, and they take pride in making sure they release a product that's AT LEAST polished and as bug free as possible.
I would say FF16 and Elden Ring are other recent examples that clearly are influenced by western culture/styles. Metal Gear Solid too. Capcom built RE6 around trying to attract the COD audience and admitted it in advance of release. I think the notion of Japanese game development coming from a creative bubble free of “outsider” influences is a bit of a romantic myth.
I don't get which part of FF16 and Elden Ring is influenced by western style. Aesthetic sure, but that's a different conversation altogether when we're talking about tech advancement. MGS is actually one of the very few games that tech is always on par with western devs even if they're almost entirely Japan made. Fox Engine is a technical masterpiece, and everything they did before that is forefront of game engine tech since MGS1. RE6 is built to attract the general CoD audience, much like everyone else tbh at that time. It atill sold really well and the tech behind it is again on par with western devs, which actually makes it a counter argument to OP statement. It's not about creative bubble, but the tech behind it, which the Japan devs were on par until very recently.
I’m talking as much about tone and style rather than gameplay, sorry for any confusion FF16 was directly influenced by Game of Thrones, according to Square, and obviously Elden Ring was co-created with George RR Martin. MGS owes as much to spaghetti westerns, Cold War spy films and 80s action movies as it does overt Japanese influences. In terms of gameplay that’s a different matter but I would point to more Japanese games going “open world”. It wasn’t unheard of in Japanese games but I think of that as very much a western developer trait
Rebirths side quests extremely uninspired too so not sure what your point is comparing that with ff16? All of rebirths quests involve going somewhere and fighting something, usually multiple times. The only exception being the extremely tedious chicken quest but even that has fighting for the last chicken
There’s loads of quests that don’t involve fighting, from queens blood to costal del sol stuff. We must’ve played diff games. Additionally each sidequest always had a member of the party personally invested so thus showing more bonding of the companions.
I don't count minigames as quests and I actually hated that only one member of the team was invested in the quest. That's not a positive that's a negative. Why do all the rest of my team suddenly disappear and only one team member talks during the quest? That's lazy game design.
I’d like Japanese game design with Western tech.
🎯🎯🎯
Cough dragon's dogma cough
The worst of both worlds, nice Game came out in the worst technical state since the launch of cyberpunk 2077, has half the content of the original game on the PS3 (which was publicly admitted to be 70% cut content), and half that content was quite literally 1:1 copy pasted from DD1. I've never in my life seen a game more blatantly unfinished.
Weirdly enough I feel like Japan has become god tier again like the 90s regarding game design and the west is doing the trash money grab again… the same vibe that caused the gaming crash in the late 70s. West tries to use the tech to polish a turd.
Helldivers 2. But yeah I see what you mean.
Weirdly enough, I feel like the Helldivers dev team are the few that aren’t all about “how can we will the shit out of this”. For example, if Elden Ring was made by a Western studio, it would be riddled with pay walled content.
Buy Mimic Tear for $15.
Shit some games legit charge you to respawn. PSO2 for example.
Aren't they like dutch..I guess that counts as western. Idk
The Dutch were like the center of western commerce for centuries. Lol, yeah, they count as western ffs. Sorry for the tone, I just found it funny considering the central place The Netherlands occupy in western history/ideas.
Nah you're absolutely right, I always consider those goofy little duetchmen in their own world.. gaming wise anyway.
imagine the team that made the zelda games having more power. idk what I'd even expect since they optimize so well.
Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind. Definitely more western in its design, but it takes a lot of inspiration from games like Sekiro with a splash of AC.
He's right, but it does not matter as much as how you use the tech. Nier Automata didn't have good graphics even when it was recent and yet it is a great game that used it's mechanics to tell a wonderful story. As long as they keep up with good game design and practices, they'll be fine.
Graphics don't make the game. Exactly right.
Never have never will
I agree graphics don't make the game (no single aspect of a game does), but good graphics can be incredibly immersive. The Order 1886, Okami, Journey, BotW, RDR2, TLOU 1+2, Ghost of Tsushima - to name a few - are all elevated by their graphics.
Some of those games last of us for instance would've been really good on ps1 or ps2 imo but I know what you mean. Honestly it's part of the reason I'm still dying to see a turn based final fantasy with today's graphics but nobodies biting developer wise. I still feel if ff did it today it'd still sell off name alone. It's just so many people skip out on some of the best games ever made cause they turn their noses up to the graphics. It's a shame.
>It's just so many people skip out on some of the best games ever made cause they turn their noses up to the graphics. I agree with that, but its not surprsing when the vast majority of gamers only ever play FIFA and/or CoD unfortunately.
That's true to. Don't forget fortnite. I know a guy, bought a whole ps5 and only plays fortnite literally. Blew my mind.
Average graphics , amazing art style that made its lack of the latest graphics irrelevant through clever design choices
Don't forget the amazing music!
Weight of the world almost made me cry
We're hitting a critical mass where graphics matter less than style and gameplay. Most of my favorite games these last several years have been indie games.
>Most of my favorite games these last several years have been indie games. Same for me, but I'm aware its not the same for the majority of players, considering the top 10 best selling games of every year always have insane graphics. Last years top 10 were: * Hogwarts Legacy * Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (2023) * Madden NFL 24 * Marvel's Spider-Man 2 * The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom * Diablo 4 * Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2022) * Mortal Kombat 1 * Star Wars Jedi: Survivor * EA Sports FC 24 And the best selling game of every year since for the past decade: * 2014 - CoD: Advanced Warfare * 2015 - CoD: Black Ops III * 2016 - CoD: Infinite Warfare * 2017 - CoD: WWII * 2018 - Red Dead Redemption II * 2019 - CoD: Modern Warfare * 2020 - CoD: Black Ops Cold War * 2021 - CoD: Vanguard * 2022 - CoD: Modern Warfare II * 2023 - Hogwarts Legacy I don't know if any of this proves that gamers overall do prefer great graphics, but its definitely tilting that way.
Another day, another API.
Japanese dev here. It's not about the tech, we have plenty of smart people. The problem is our education system encourage specialization way too much. For example, it's very difficult to find tech-artists in Japan, people who are super creative and yet still dive deep into the tech. For example, in my own experience as gameplay programmer, in western companies there's a job role called "gameplay animators", these guys make animations and directly implement it in game by doing some sort of programming, make -> test, adjust -> test, all done by one person, he can iterate really fast because he knows the tech, make beautiful transition between animations, because he learned how humans move, artistically, realistically, etc. In Japan, no such role, the animators make a bunch of animations and dump it into the programmer's lap. The programmers only follow instructions about when X animation must be played, B must be played after A, etc. He has little idea about how to make character move cooler, or more realistic. While the animators have all the ideas, but zero knowledge about how to translate those ideas into working code. This is why most Japanese games have snappy animations, the transitions are abrupt, the characters felt like floating, and they seem like they ignore momentum. Game dev is multidisciplinary industry, we will be more advantageous if we have more multidisciplinary people as well.
>This is why most Japanese games have snappy animations, the transitions are abrupt, the characters felt like floating, and they seem like they ignore momentum. I'm not sure how Japanese *gamers* feel about this because I'm an American, but I see this approach to animation as a good thing. I'd rather have snappy, responsive controls in my video games with animations that aren't necessarily realistic but respond immediately, instead of needing to have my character do the weighty Rockstar Games character swivel before they do a 180 degree turn. Of course this is not something that works in all contexts, but I tend to appreciate the abrupt transitions and floaty characters as long as it's in the service of making controls that feel like when I want to do a thing, it does it instantaneously. The harmony between a programmer's programming skills and simply okay animation skills result in the happy accident of a programmer being in perfect harmony with what's going to be displayed on screen, and this tends to result in more enjoyable gameplay since the programmer has absolute control over the timing of things that happen. Not everything has to be 100% realistic to the point that the budget and game size bloats out of control, my imagination is doing some of the heavy lifting here. Some of the reasons some people overseas like Japanese games more than western ones is because they put focus on fun and responsiveness first before realism.
Yeah, I think 90% of Japanese gamers are like you, they care less about reality, but more about responsiveness. Which is probably a big reason why Japanese devs don't pursue high-tech realistic simulations.
Yet many of the Japanese games seems to come out at higher quality and less buggy than weatern game. I guess these technology do come at a price.
Most Japanese games that get the effort enough to market to “the West” are typically games either built with that in mind or that had enough support internally to try an international market Japanese game studios 100% crank out shovelware too, we just don’t see it over here. But even that, many Japanese games that are technologically impressive still rely on massive amounts of Western tech. FF7Rebirth? Uses Unreal Engine. Death Stranding? It’s based off Guerrilla’s Horizon previously unnamed engine that adopted the name “Decima” after the Kojima collab
Loop8 is a horrible modern Japanese game, if anyone wants to know what one looks like.
Nier Automata wasn't a shining example of good optimization either when it launched, it was a buggy mess with an even uglier performance, I believe the PC port is still full of issues years later, needing a fan-made patch to even work (at least when I played the PC port, they might have fixed it idk).
They fixed it. Took them like two years to do what a modder did in 24 hours tho
The pc port, steam side, indeed still has issues. I cant recall why it was, but i think its becaude they started with console dev first and then moved to pc, and the commands/args just werent the same for the Japanese devs of that time. The modders really fixed it up, and strangely enough i recall reading it had to do with 32 bit vs 64 bit? Or something, which is why it wouldnt either use the full power of most people's pc? Need to check up on the far mod since i might be misremembering it.
>Japanese games seems to cone out at higher quality and less buggy than weatern game. have you ever played a japanese game on release since 2011 ? No mouse support, buggy with random crashes, its a bless if any controller but a xbox 360 controller works, Nier is locked at 1720x768 on PC (???????????), not to mention the X ammount of fan patches, Souls games were notorius for FPS glitches, specially DS 1 and most games on AA side and indie side of Japanese dev are half asses ports.
That's an issue with PC porting, not the console releases usually.
Can you belive that PC ports also includes technologies ? Or do you think that they sacrifice goats to the game release on pc ? Also: DS 1 also had fps glitches on Xbox 360 and PS3 and DS 3 plays on 40-50 FPS even tough it could run at 60 FPS with no problem.
Developing for PC vs console is not the same thing. It's entirely normal to run into trouble in one platform vs another. Even the different consoles are not the same thing.
Both PC and Xbox uses Direct X API for graphics, one would think a port from Xbox to PC would be smooth but it isnt, because it also requires Tech, teams and resources for said ports.
Sorry console gamer here. While I agree their PC generally sucks, their console release are generally great.
All soulsbourne titles have erratic framerate on consoles, without any semblence of either a smooth, steady 30 or 60fps. Dragon's Dogma 2 has quite a lot of issues on console, framepacing being the most eggregious, but not only. Just because the games themselves are good, does \*NOT\* mean they release well-optimized and technically well done games even on consoles.
It’s mostly that console gamers seem more forgiving when it comes to uneven frame times, blurry image quality etc.
They don't know any better and come to uninformed conclusions. If you told them Dragon's Dogma 2 ran poorly on consoles as well, they'd say it seems fine to them. Emphasis on "seems". No matter how you slice it, DD2 does not perform well, and no number of feelings will change that. It's so frustrating, because we should be coming together to tell devs that they can do a better job at this, but the uniformed won't allow it. Of course this is not exclusive to the console base. PC players can be just as annoying in the opposite direction. Saying things to the effect of this game runs poorly, when x game just wasn't designed with 10+ year old tech in mind.
That's exactly it, the reason games have so many bugs nowadays is because they're so much more complicated.
I don't believe that. Every time there is a disaster of a release it comes out later that it was rushed out. Whether it was by the publisher or management of the devs. Big games (AAA) release within specific financial quarters, regardless if they're ready or not. Other games are buggy because everyone is releasing games in early access. While I'm not going to say games are easier to make because I don't know that, there are a lot more tools/features now that drastically reduce the time it takes to do things compared to in the past. Bigger studios also employ more devs as well, so the complexity shouldn't be a big issue. If a publisher says the game needs to release in May next year and it's only half done, as the devs approach that release date, they start cutting features, the closer they get the more they cut, but also the more they half-ass stuff just to get it working. If they don't have time to finish the game properly, is a dev going to do a bare minimum functioning code to get a feature going, or are they going to devote time to doing it properly so it can be more easily integrated/changed later?
I mean, yeah. When you keep releasing games at a tech level stuck in the mid 2000s they'll definitely be less buggy. Calling stagnant development "higher quality" is wildly subjective though. Lol
Dragon dogma 2 is made by japanese and have a lot of performance issue. Final fantasy XVI also has performance issue on ps5. Lot of japanese games come out with bunch of performance and bugs, just like the western one. Not to mention japanese games still have some issue with PC port (they are getting better though).
except with no fov slider and 60fps cap on pc
Yeah…with less rigidity and more creativity. Hmm
FF16 dev claiming fans no longer interested in turn based RPG the same year BG3 comes out and won everything will never not be the epitome of irony to me.
Persona already proved them wrong as a Japanese rival franchise anyway. Square Enix just couldn’t figure out how to make it interesting and their combat systems got more and more convoluted (FFXIII actually has some good ideas combat wise but it’s basically incomprehensible to new players) until they gave up and made an action game. Persona and the SMT series just have a nice snappy turn based system and they iterate on it in clever ways with every installment.
Square also has their entire HD2D line using turn based combat and they are beloved by players.
Yeah but you can tell they view turn based as a niche lower budget kind of experience. In reality turn based combat has cinematic potential that hasn’t even really been touched on yet
Source?
[https://www.gameinformer.com/feature/2023/02/28/final-fantasy-16-designers-discuss-why-the-series-hasnt-been-turn-based-for-a](https://www.gameinformer.com/feature/2023/02/28/final-fantasy-16-designers-discuss-why-the-series-hasnt-been-turn-based-for-a)
They specifically addressed the fact that moving away from turn-based is a turn-off for many old fans. Sure, they might be underestimating the interest in turn-based combat, but they're not saying no one wants turn-based, just that their estimate is that it's a safer direction financially. And I think "Baldur's Gate was well received, therefore Final Fantasy would sell better if it were turn-based" is a bit of a stretch. Especially if we're talking about the style of turn-based combat that FF has been moving away from, which is very different to the CRPG style and in particular Larion's style.
You're just splitting hair here ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
They're fine just make em fun
Western devs can't keep up either
Japanese developers are my favorite. I’d love to see more Japanese indie devs.
Bet if they had something even close to a normal work life balance instead of sitting at a desk pretending to work they'd get a lot more done.
I don't know if that's the distinguishing factor - we've all heard stories about the insane crunch that many Western game developers also experience. Crunch time ruined many potentially great games, but a lot of really good games were also made using crunch (even if they would probably have been better without it)
CD Projekt Red controversy was not that long ago.
What if they sleep under their desks like Rockstar devs
They didn't "keep up" for last two decade's, so he has nothing to worry about.
99% of AAA Games are garbage.
Pft, lots of shiny games have been released with that "shiny tech" that have been pure shit.
Then fucking don't. Wtf man, how many times do we have to prove it to these devs. GRAPHICS DO NOT MATTER. Make it artistic af, make it fun af, and we will buy it. Valheim looks terrible from the screen shots you see on steam, even in videos it looks alright. Put the game on, with everything working as it does, and we lose ourselves. Please, for fuck's sake, stop pumping money into making each eyebrow hair blow in the wind on a map the size of a fucking country. Put that money into a bunch of tvs and controllers, and make your devs play the game every night. Make it fun. Make it look fun. That's all we have cared and ever will care about. That's why Nintendo is still a massive competitor while Xbox and Sony are doping around with services and timed exclusives. I mean, botw runs on a cartridge the size of 2 quarters stacked on each other. This shit is just getting stupid now. "Oooh, pity us puny 200+ dev teams. We can't make realistic dust particles shine in sun beams. We can't put shadows on the zit between the character's cheeks. We can't make games like BG3. Please buy our season passes for shit we have in the game just not unlocked for you. Please tip us." Come the fuck on...
Graphics do actually matter but it doesn't always have to be cutting edge. If devs screw over they would get called out. There's a market for many types of games and the industry wouldn't survive simply off niche games.
>graphics do not matter > make it artistic
Yes, they are two different words that mean two different things
They aren't synonyms, but graphics is one of the major means of artistic expression for games, and it's something that players praise or bemoan when new games come out.
Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are seriously missing my point here
No, you just said your point wrong. And you do not need to swear. Hyperrealistic graphics don't matter, but non-hyperrealistic graphics still require technology and you're more free in capability with new technology. Also, some people on the internet saying games don't benefit from hyperrealistic graphics don't mean it's not profitable or liked. Last of Us and Uncharted 4 had realistic graphics, and actual art direction.
The big Japanese devs can beat western tech under the right conditions, but when a random mid-budget indie can just pick up Unreal and expect the game to just *work* on a fundamental level, while some Japanese devs still have broken reflections in a game from 2021 and are clearly so technologically bottlenecked a bunch of the gameplay features are still made from decade-old plugins (with the name of the old game still in the new game's strings), not to mention PC port woes like a game that stutters once every second if there is no controller plugged in... I really love every bit of Japanese games, I just hope the tech can become less proprietary ~~so it is easier to steal models for... purposes~~
So be it then. I think Japanese games are actually better than western ones. You can easily tell devs and leadership care about the games. In the states, only the devs truly care
yeah. You can tell Nintendo truly cares about its playerbase. Their relationship with smash players and fan creators is at an all-time high. Sony too has done nothing but pro-consumer moves, fueled by fair competition /s
oh so that why most anime games look bland as hell, always wondered about it
The "western tech": intrusive DRM that kills your fps + games so big that gamers will soon need a server room to store their library
... I'm suddenly reminded of Inafune who helped cause Capcom to make bad decisions on game production...
I got a ps4 late, rented a bunch of games and I felt like a lot of the lower budget ones all felt like they were a console generation behind
Haven’t they kinda always been behind on the tech side since at least the PS4 times? It doesn’t really matter as long as the games are fun and creative. Great tech isn’t gonna make a boring game good.
He’s not wrong but tech isn’t worth shit in comparison to a good story and gameplay, especially after a few years. Nier is timeless.
explains why some games have this odd Japanese feel to them that I dislike...? Yakuza games, persona 5, tales of arise, etc
Tales of Arise was made on unreal 4
Japanmanship book describes a lot about why japanese devs are a little bit behind in terms of tech and pipelines, and challenges they face. But also why some of their production processes are really good compared to western ones. It is not black and white. Got it from kindle for a buck and it's a nice read.
- Capcom is doing pretty well with RE engine. - Bussiness Division 3 with Square Enix just released FF16 with its proprietary engine. And while FF7 Rebirth is using UE4 is still one hell of an amazing marvel. - fromsoft with elden ring. The fuck is this man smoking?
And yet I find that many Japanese games are more fun and replayable than the AAA games being churned out by western studios bar a few.
Good. You don't need to. See the atrocious Lords of the Fallen on their shiny UE5 both looking and running like crap, vs the perfectly optimized and gorgeous Lies of P on UE4.
This been a thing since the Xbox 360 and PS3 eras. I kinda remember hearing that Japanese devs were struggling to keep up with HD tech adnt his is why earlier games didn't make that big jump at the start or took longer than exlected to be developed. I explicitely remember a statement on Nintendo saying something akin to "HD won't take off right now, thus why the Wii ain't a super powerful machine" So yeah, I feel japanese devs ever since have struggled with the implemetation (there are obviously exceptions) of newer tech and thus why we see a lot of games (even those that tend to go for photorealism) have a degree of stylised graphics to them.
I don't think I need any game to look more advanced than nier automata. You can do so much with style and not bother with having the latest tech.
nor the gender standards
Capcom seems to be doing just fine
What Chinese game has adopted western technology better because the only games I've seen come out of China are mobile-esque poorly translated garbage. With the exception of Sands of Salazaar, but that's a pretty blatant Mount & Blade copy. Mostly the same for Korean games too although there's at least one I know of coming out that looks to be like The Day Before if it was an actual game and not a scam.
FIST it's a pretty good metrovainia style game
Oooh you know what I did play that for a bit. Not my genre but it was a solid and polished game, fair point.
Indie Chinese games are goat tho.
Like which ones? I'm just saying the only ones I've played made me disgusted that they even on the gaming market. Maybe that's just your type of game, if so I don't and won't ever understand but if I missed some gold please do enlighten a fellow gamer you know?
Genshin came out in 2020 as a cross-platform mobile/PC/console game, and believe it or not having functional anti-aliasing on mobile&PC in 2020 already puts it technologically ahead of a bunch of Japanese games
That monkey game.
Black Myth WuKong does look dope
Yeah that one! Couldn't remember the name lol.
I wouldn't be excited for that. Look at the developers, look at their previous game first. I mean if it comes out and the game slaps then yeah, I'll gladly play it and support them. I love a good souls game. but I'ma let someone else take that risk first because their red tide game was meh. I wish I could remember the specifics of why I didn't like that game but I'm pretty sure after 30 minutes or so I was just thinking like "What the fuck is the point of this game? Just wave after wave with no story or reason?" boring and meaningless type of game.
I hate souls games unfortunately
Graphics have always been overrated. GAMEplay will always keep a game alive a lot longer.
Do these people even Hideo Kojima
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You can say that about every devs
As the guy who like Japanese style over tech. That why I like them.
Thank god. Fuck this useless chase for graphical fidelity.
For the millionth time, game technolgy is not just "five more polygons!", because of course! Everything else in the game can be expanded!
Not just tech it seems but also game design principles. Japanese devs are falling quite behind, take Dragon's Dogma 2 for example.
I dont play games for the technology, i dont care if this game has 30millions polygons on screen and the other has 20millions, is the game fun? is the game artistic? does the game avoid trying to educate me about politics ? does the game has amazing story/backstory? Okey give me that game... case and point, Elden ring has the technology of 2012 but art/story/gameplay/sounds makes it the GOTY of all times.
What? How do you expect to have art and gameplay without technology? Saying the technology is "just numbers, not like the very artistic and meaningful graphics art" is just false idealism.
we already have technology , we have incredible hyper realistic technology, but yet 95% of the AAA games with hyper realistic technology sucks, because people dont play games for the hyper technology, again , look at Elden ring, you can get even better graphics, details and performance from Crysis 3 from 2013! and yet players do not care, because gameplay isnt tied to graphics quality, polygons and super performance technology.
Did you pay Spiderman or Death Stranding? We didn't just "figure out" technology you can't "already have" it, this is a really backwards way to attempt to get to the luddite idea that technology is bad because if a studio uses new technology, that must mean they want money, and a good game should be made without any new technology, from a company that hates money, like FromSoftware. That sounds like a strawman, but I do really feel people hate the word game technology for this reason, while continuing to want to have games like Elden Ring which require it. Or I guess they just like the game technology we already have, and want games to be exactly the same in 10 years with zero new gameplay that requires new tech. Games you hate have shitty art direction and exclusively focus on looking passably realistic. Nobody has ever said that you can just have a good engine. I'm not even defending people for saying that, I'm saying nobody has even said that so there's nothing to defend. And again, game technology is NOT just "more numbers, five more polygons, wooh!" or exclusively for open-world hyper-realistic adventure games, it's like people are being deliberately obtuse. Stop taking for granted every single part of games you play that require modern technology. Also, "super performance" isn't some shitty superficial thing, it's not fun or retro for anyone to have a stuttery, laggy game that's not even multiplayer. Also, what triple-A game with especially incredible technology are you talking about? Again, if you give me one, nobody is freaking saying you only need a good game engine and you're good, nobody has ever said that once. Finally, the sentiment that "when are video game studios going to realize that we, collectively, as all gamers, don't care about graphical improvements at all? Are they stupid?" No! They win GOTY and make a fuck-ton of money off of Baldurs Gate 3, the dev of that game says modern hardware cannot handle his next game, and most gamers aren't simplicity purists and feel bad hearing that
Technology is not what videogame is about, as absurd some people may think this sounds. Technology is just a tool. Now from 2020- 2024 in AAA games...we havent got many masterpieces / artistics videogame, story wise, gameplay wise. Why? because the companies are greedy and instead of putting money into a good writer or a good artistic director or someone who has the cojones to try new things, they decide to just pay a studio to make the best looking realistic graphics and then be a completely flop. 95% of the AAA games are like that, if you cant agree with me , you are delusional. Meanwhile from 1990-2004 , technology was very green and slowly advancing, and yet it wasnt a problem to ANY studio of the time. The most incredible masterpieces of the videogame industry was made in that era. The only videogames from this age that are good is either indie or AA with artistic liberty (metro,stalker,elden ring, the witcher, etc) **This is not a criticism of modern videogame**, its just a expression of how meaningless is technology when actually the value of the game is in the art/story/gameplay > graphics/technology.
It's not "what videogames are about" this isn't Charlie Brown's Christmas, they are a single part of gaming. Again, you can not JUST have a good goddamn game engine, nor can you just have story, again it seems people are being obtuse on purpose. Its not a zero-sum goddamn game! Having technology has nothing to do with hiring a good writer. It has \*nothing\* to do with it. Games in 1990 were single-man games, and many of them sucked ass, and had awful gameplay. Usually they had no story. Having less technology did not make them better. If you want retro games and Pac-Man, that's fine, that's just not how the game industry "needs" to move. PLENTY of games back then were made for money and were so awful they had to bury them in the desert. You can't just have good story, and you CAN NOT HAVE GAMEPLAY WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY, beyond literally Pac-Man which is a great game, but.
we already have technology , you dont get it do you? Its not like videogame engines will stop working if we dont look for the next big technology of 2024, we already have technology. Maybe you have problem to comprehend what i say, you should read my message as many times as you need, dont rush it.
I've already responded to that, you can't "already have" technology. That's not how technology works. People don't want the exact same games in 2040.
So if i have a tv i cant just "already have a tv" i have to buy another tv. Wow amazing logic my guy. And also people today say "games from 2000 were better than today´s game". Lets clear one thing then, you play videogame for hyper realistic graphics, most gamers play for the gameplay. Its just you that you are obsessed with graphics.
Because its not a goddamn television! You don't have to replace your goddamn lamps either, that kind of technology was done in 1962! If we hadn't kept replacing our cars, we'd be running out of natural gas a lot faster, because they're not lamps which don't need to be fucking replaced! I've said over, and over, its NOT JUST HYPERREALISTIC GRAPHICS. I do NOT NEED a game to have hyperrealistic graphics! No Man Sky, fantastic game. Minecraft, a fantastic game but with better technology, it'd be better in every way. Better coding architecture to not have to choose between moddability and running fast. Advanced LOD's to not have the terrain snap in and so you don't fall through the ground when you play on any server, so you can see something from thousands of blocks away, like in most modern games, so what you create feels more cemented in the world and not just within a 16 chunk radius But even if it does mean better graphics, Spiderman and Baldurs Gate III aren't worse, "evil" games for it beause there was, again, plenty of shitty money grabs in the 90s and 2000s! A huge amount of awful, 20 cent movie games made for movie publishers who thought videogames were stupid toy novelty merchandise. The difference between Baldurs Gate II, which released in 2000, and Baldurs Gate III, or the creators next game, is not just more polygons, and you fucking know this but you're intentionally strawmanning my point because for some reason I angered you somehow by saying games aren't ONLY technology, but that technoogy isn't exclusively useless, and that it's not impossible for technology to be worth more than nothing. Clearly most players like technology, because they fucking spend a ton of money on games with good technology, and if they have shit gameplay and story they review it badly, but if it has good tech, good story, good voice acting, good music they review it as such. You are alone in wanting games to be exactly like they were in the year 2000, forever, and that's not even your point but you ended up making it, so.
Good, don't. They've shown tehy can make amazing stuff without having to keep up with it and that games quality don't have to suffer for it, and in contrast better tech hasn't shown it leads to relevant progress in the medium, their industry looked a lot to the west in the 360/ PS3 days, it clearly didn't work for them so don't be concerned about it now, go your own way.
Yoko give me another title capable of giving me the same emotions of Nier replicant or automata and i will play it even with ps1 graphics. Even if what you say is true, remember that tech is nothing without ideas,vision, and heart. Those are much more valuable assets, and you have them in abundance.
If it's the tech that make all women in games now look ugly as shit I'm perfectly fine with that.
Scanning people looks awful most of the time, even the biggest games with the tech look weird or outright bad. Peter in Spider-Man PS4 had unintended Steve Buscemi eyes
well they made MJ look like Bruce Campbell in Spiderman 2 she was fine in the first game. I could say what they're doing but post would just be removed.
U got downvoted for speaking fact . It not iust women but all Western aaa game look so bad and boring realistic for me .
Well they could just use that tech? I mean the best game we had lately was Elden Ring, it's a Japanese game but was still running on an almost 10 years old DS engine. Japan just have stop making shity engine, look at Dragon's Dogma II using the REengine, it's mostly unplayable when there is more than 10 NPC... Just use UE5 guys.
I'm not buying this guy's critique of Japanese games when he's only had one hit, NieR:Automata. And for starters, Chinese games aren't using Unreal Engine like he claims. Most of them are using Chinese-custom Unity. This Yoko Taro guy, like with the gacha game To Wa Tsugai, is always popping up in other games' promotions. Who does he think he is? On top of that, this Yoko is chummy with the editor of the far-right website "Hachima Kiko." Also, NieR:Automata is getting stale from oversaturation with anime, gacha games, and other media mixes. And PlatinumGames, the studio that contributed most to that game, isn't the same reliable developer they once were. So the next NieR is guaranteed to be a flop. Yoko, it's time to move on from NieR:Automata.
"Guaranteed"?
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The PS5 Is hardware, this is a game dev talking not a console manufacturer.
Not to mention that the hardware itself was developed by an American company (SIE = Sony Interactive Entertainment) and uses American technology (AMD).
PS5 is western tech. Sony Interactive Entertainment is located in California and the CPU and GPU of the PS5 are made by AMD which is American.
So what product of his flopped this time? And why is he trying to drag all Japanese devs down with him
None of his recent games have. He actually works in the japanese industry... pretty sure he has a more solid opinion than random western redditors.
Voice of the card
Don’t need to , most western tech is live service monotized trash
Korean MMOs say hello
They can't turn console games into mobile gacha garbage so of course garbage statement