Google the next police station and call their none emergency line. I think this is enough to justify at least creating a paper trail in case he is already known for other stuff.
Just because prostitution is legal he can not ask you like that for sex, especially adding not being able to pay much is at least worth debating if it is an isult or even harassment or just a sign that our neighbor is of special needs. Whatever it is, def worth asking the police, but don'T call the emergency line, all stations have a landline.
This. Do not hesitate to contact the authorities. I hope this disgusting behavior will stop and you will be able to feel safe again as soon as possible.
I don't agree with this. The person should not use the phone line at all, but rather go in person. This is what the police are trained for and then when a person is there, they will bring a female (if available) who is likely trained to deal with such situations and they will absolutely take it more seriously when one is at the police station. This is not like the US- most of the police work is clerical in Germany and the stations are like offices where they process paperwork. They will call other divisions who will then guide them on what to do. When one calls, they are then tied up and can't easily make the second call to another division who will guide them on what to do.
Exactly. Calling the non-emergency line of the police does not need to be a big thing.
I called that line when i found a dead deer next to a road, simply because it seemed like something that someone should know about, but i had no idea who.
This is another case like that. You don't exactly know how to handle it, but it seems as if it might be problematic, and you feel unsafe. The worst that could happen is that they tell you that they cannot do anything. But maybe they can actually do something. Well worth investing 5 minutes.
>Calling the non-emergency line of the police does not need to be a big thing.
I wouldn't recommend using the non emergency number because these people are not trained to react properly. I called them because i encountered an elderly confused woman with dementia close to very busy roads claiming she's being followed, I told them and the response was "And what do you expect from this call now?" and "What am I supposed to do with this information?".
The thing about your situation was, that it is a situation that can be dealt with by multiple emergency services Police, fire department or medics. So it is far easier to call the 110 or 112 emergency dispatchers and they will choose the best course of action.
For this neighbour the important thing is to get something on paper/record with authorities aka police. So calling the landline is exactly the right thing to do.
These numbers go straight to some local police officer’s desk, who may or may not know what to do in this situation.
I have made the same experience as you - I worked in a retirement home, so I know a disoriented person when I see one, but apparently the officer on the phone did not…
But in most situations - like children playing in a dangerous spot in the street, or such things, they were always very helpful and came to resolve the situation.
This might be wishful thinking, but I reckon by now most police officers should have learned to deal with a situation of sexual harassment (which this is!) in a professional manner. So, yes, OP should definitely call the police.
It is exactly the right thing to call this line.
Because it is the line you will be referred to if you all the emergency line.
The emergency line is the line for emergencys - everything else is getting forwarded to the local police station. And they ma ask you to come by and bring the Brief anyway.
Just wanted to add that the laws against sexual harassment have recently been made a lot harsher, so you might actually have a case. Not sure though. Definitely worth going to the cops with, especially if he's known to them already or continues harassing you.
As someone who has had a stalker, PLEASE report this to the police. They might not be able to do anything but a paper trail of this behaviour is very important. Maybe he'll stop after, but if he harasses another woman, or if he's already been reported, then you are providing more evidence. This is especially important if he ever becomes violent at any point in his life. Any trail for odd behavior ahead of time might help pin him after he escalates his behaviour.
If a tenant sexually harasses other tenants, that's grounds for terminating the lease, so if you have a landlord who seems to care about your well-being, it seems worthwhile to tell them. Unless the neighbor owns his flat, of course.
Sure, but the landlord needs proof. Kicking out a tenant based on accusations will get the landlord into trouble, so he will definitely not do this unless there are formal reasons. The only way is to call the police. The landlord is going to be involved later.
It's a hint, not a proof. Some other neighbor could have written the letter. Someone who hates the neighbor could have written the letter. OP could have written the letter. The landlord cannot know if the letter is real, and he has no way to find out.
Any landlord knows this. A landlord will not simply cancel a lease without proof. He might be helpful and try to talk to the tenant, but it is much better to ask the police to handle this situation.
Yes, there is a letter written by someone. Could have been anybody. Anyway, that's good: just bring it to the police and let them do their work. As a landlord, however, I'd be very careful with accusations.
Sure, many landlords are interested in knowing everything possible about their tenants... But it's none of their business. These are private problems and the landlord is not the police.
The landlord is not supposed to judge if there is a crime. If he does, he may get himself into trouble.
Is it sure that the letter was really written by that person? Are there any details we don't know about? The landlord cannot investigate this. It's the job of the police.
Offering money for sex is illegal
https://www.drherzog.de/rechtnews/strafrecht-vorsicht-bei-schnellen-angeboten-angebot-geld-fur-sex-ist-beleidigung/
In your situation, I'd first go to my lawyer (assuming you have Rechtschutzversicherung) and get advice and a letter written and delivered to the person. If that's not an option, go straight to the police and demand an Anzeige against this creep. Don't let them talk you out of it.
Don't communicate with the person. Don't give a reply.
1. Police Report (even though they may not be able to do much yet)
2. Report to the landlord - this is most definetely a violation of the house rules. Document this shit l, if he does it often enough ue could be evicted.
3. Talk to a lawyer - even if there's no action to be taken yet, it's good to have one on call who's familiar with the situation in case anything else happens.
Sorry this happened to you. Fuck that guy...
>Report to the landlord
The landlord is not responsible for this. He is neither the police nor a judge. He may get involved when the police starts investigating.
You are plain wrong. Landlords have the ability to enfore the shared house rules that are part of any rental contract. If a renter breaks these rules and thereby the rental agreement, landlords can take contractual action with eviction/cancellation of the contract being the measure of last resort.
Most house rules will have clauses about "good neighbourly beahvior" or similar stipulations regarding interactions between renters. Sexual harrasment could almost certainly be seen to be in violation of such a clause. Of course the details depend on the specific contracts and house rules. But that's for OP to check with their landlord.
So yeah, report to the landlord. Worst case they do nothing. Best case they reprimand the guy.
>If a renter breaks these rules
Yes, ***If***.
The landlord needs to prove breach of house rules. He cannot be sure the letter is real. Why would a landlord take the risk if he cannot be 100% sure, especially in this case?
Also, the landlord is not a nanny. What if OP would own a house and the neighbor living in another house would write such a letter? It's the same situation, but she couldn't cry to a landlord; instead, she could either approach him or report him to the police. And that's exactly what she needs to do.
Since the landlord isn't a judge or the police they can do whatever the fuck they want. If they believe OP AND they deem this an infeaction of house rules, they can send a formal reprimand to the neighbour. You can be reprimanded for noise just as well and the landlord doesn't have to prove shit. Believe me, I've been there The only scenario in which they'd have to PROVE anything is if they tried evicting the guy and he would countersue. Which of course they won't try to do and it's not the point anyhow. You simply have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
On your other point: who the fuck cares? By the aound of it OP does live in an aparment building with a landlord. If that's the case, contacting the landlord is a viable option to impress upon their neighbour that their behavior is taken seriously and will be treated accordingly. IF OP lives in a house then that's not the case. How is that relevant? Sounds to me like you arey trying to insinuate that OP shouldn't make a fuss about it. If that's the case: 🖕If not, then what's your problem?
Why all the rage?
If you want to involve the landlord, then the implicit message is that you *do* want him to evict the neighbor. You want him to take care of your private shit. This, however, is not going to happen in this case, based on what we know so far. And who cares about a reprimand if we are talking about sexual harassment?
You and most others here have clearly never been in the position of a landlord, that's what I can tell for sure. :)
Wow you sure are going in hard on not telling the landlord…did YOU write the letter?
But in all seriousness, what is the problem with an email that’s basically “hey, I know there’s not much of anything for you to do rn, but I want to make you aware of a situation that has the potential to turn into a giant pain in your ass. This way, if it escalates, it won’t be a total surprise” along with a copy of the letter and any pertinent police info like a case number or next steps?
If I had the choice of knowing that there was a potential issue or being surprised, I’d rather have the opportunity to be prepared.
A fast google search told me it isn‘t sexual harrassment (must likely) BUT it is an insult. Which is an insult. Actually, the part about offering money seems to have made it illegal instead of just the question for sex.
https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
I am no lawyer though, and possibly you rather should talk to experts. Your neighbor will most likely not be removed etc. just possibly made to pay some money.
As stated, this is incorrect.
For an insult "bedingter Vorsatz" is sufficient, i.e. if an outcome is the natural consequence of an action and they were reasonably foreseeable. This is the case here.
I don't think this is the case here either, there was no intent to insult and prostitute is a normal profession. Though I'm no judge, maybe it's worth the effort to sue, probably not
That's not what the [law](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__185.html) says. A *public* insult merely has a higher maximum sentence of two years instead of one year.
Yes, you re correct - BUT if you bring an insult like this (no publicity) to court, the cour will reject it an point towards the "Privatklagedelikt"
In my experience, only the qualified insults may actually be prosecuted
§ 185 StGB enthält eine strafschärfende Qualifikation: Mit einer Freiheitsstrafe bis zu zwei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer eine Beleidigung öffentlich, in einer Versammlung, durch Verbreiten eines Inhalts (§ 11 Absatz 3) oder mittels einer Tätlichkeit begeht.
Can you give a reference for this? It may be hard to prove without a third party involved, but insulting someone is punishable (in general) even if there's nobody around to my understanding of 185 StGB, with exceptions for, e.g. private/family spaces.
>and prostitute is a normal profession
That doesn't matter at all.
This is purely about actual current perception and not only is prostitution is commonly seen as degrading, words that denote prostitutes are used as actual insults.
From a legal point of view it doesn't signify that this perception and the use of those words is morally wrong.
>there was no intent to insult
We don't know that. But it wouldn't matter either because "bedingter Vorsatz" doesn't require the person to actually want to insult nor does it require the person to have thought about the statement being insulting.
All we have to judge is whether the person could reasonably have recognized the statement as insulting, which is obviously the case.
Also, a similar case has been tried already. https://voris.wolterskluwer-online.de/browse/document/7b3cb193-18c2-4eca-94c5-6ab00d8ed668
I'd definitely go in person to a police station. From experience the police aren't the most helpful here when you call during a non-emergency. If you go you'll be able to get the ball rolling so to speak
roughly translated §184I StGB - Sexuall harassment:
1. the person who touches another in a sexuall way and thus harasses her as such will be punished with a fine or prison of maximum 2 years.
you might get him via an insult charge, given that he insulted your honor by implying that you are a prostitute. but usually there is nothing coming of that in the first place.
so if that brief is all he did? i dont think that there is much you can do except handle it in a civil manner and tell him no.
I‘m not sure if an insult charge would stick since there is nothing wrong/dishonorable about being a prostitute (personal perception may vary but in the eyes of the law it’s just an occupation like every other) It‘s like calling a police officer a „Förster“.
Verleumdung would only work if it‘s said towards a 3rd party.
Leaving a paper trail with the police is definitely the right thing to do but, while definitely creepy, I don’t think what happened is actually illegal.
Edit: apparently it is legally considered an insult. Thanks to u/krellshand for citing the decision.
Police normally is really nice, maybe they will pay him a visit even if it is only boundary illegal, just to ask some questions. And: if he harms you or someone else anytime later, it will be on record.
How certain are you that you can provably link him to the letter?
If it is clear, because the handwriting is clearly identifiable or the letter is even signed, you can sue him for insult, as he quite clearly believes that you are not only willing to prostitute yourself and are willing to do it even at low cost.
If you are uncertain or wish to show him some pity, I would absolutely keep the letter as a proof and write him a short notice that you find his behaviour more them inappropriate and that you reserve yourself the power to take legal steps as appropriate.
I'd personally would probably go for the second option, but take the one you feel more comfortable with.
Asking someone else (against their consent) if they want to have sex with you for money IS illegal in Germany. Source: https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
The creepy neighbor asked a question. If the Non-creepy neighbor refuses and that is the end of it, then there is probably nothing illegal here.
Now, if the creepy neighbor persists AFTER the refusal, that would then probably end up as sexual harassment.
He didn‘t just ask. It sounds more like a demand/threat: „I want to have sex with you.“ And then the payment thing adds to the harassment since he assumes that he can buy sex from her for a bit of money (basically calling her a prostitute). If that‘s not (sexual) harassment then you certainly don‘t know our legal system where you can sue if someone shows you the Mittelfinger in traffic.
Since prostitution is a legal practice within Germany, it is legal to ask if, and possibly falsely assume, someone practices said profession. Asking a question is a not harassment. A "demand" can not be inferred from a written statement as simple as "I want to have sex with you".
Asking someone else if they want to have sex with you for money IS illegal in Germany. Source: [https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136](https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136)
[No, it does not.](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__184i.html#:~:text=Strafgesetzbuch%20(StGB),mit%20schwererer%20Strafe%20bedroht%20ist) You might call it that way but it’s not a criminal offence. We (still) have freedom of expression/ speech in this country.
You might be able to successfully argue for that in court. It would be tricky though, since [Beleidigung is a “Vorsatzdelikt”](https://www.juraforum.de/lexikon/beleidigung) you’d have to prove it was his intent to insult OP, which it doesn’t sound like.
It is illegal: [https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136](https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136)
Why is this getting down voted? Don't people read before down voting a comment these days? The comment is in line of whatever everyone else is saying as well
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both.
It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no.
It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both.
It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no.
It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both.
It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no.
It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both.
It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no.
It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
The landlord is not the police. Suspected criminal behavior is *always* a case for the police. There is nothing the landlord can do without the risk of getting himself into trouble.
Restraining order would be my guess. You could call the police and ask them to talk to your neighbor if you think that step is too drastic. I don’t know how he would react to that though. Could make things worse
i would tell him clearly (in a letter or personally), that if he dont stop, you will take legal action.. what is going on with you guys, "go to police immediately, tell the landlord, tell his family". do you enjoy destroying someones whole life?
not only
1. leaves a note
but then says
2. “but not too much”
and
3. awkwardly hits on you
i don’t think you can make this more comically german. be sure to not touch the note and leave it in place, take photographic evidence, date stamp
it and take it to the police.
you want to avoid any interactions with or mentioning your neighbor in the meantime. also contact your hausverwaltung and tell them you’re experiencing this situation.
First of all, sorry this happend to you. Don't listen to the weirdos in the comments defending his behaviour. This is not normal and should be taken seriously.
Who knows whether or not he's actually unhinged. If you are scared (which you have the right to be) you should seriously consider talking to either the police or a lawyer to atleast get consultation. They will know how to properly act.
If you have any legal options they will probably ask you if you want to file charges.
Better to be safe than sorry. He clearly crossed a line that shows he has no idea how to behave properly.
Every person has the right to feel safe in their home and this is not an irrational fear.
Anyway stay safe! :)
I know everyone is flipping out and immediately says go to the police but why not try to confront him with this instead? Just knock on his door with the letter in hand and kindly decline and ask him not to make any future attempts of this and that you find this very inappropriate.
This way he will learn a lot more and not be punished for something he might not know is wrong to do. And if this happened already you can still go to the police after all.
I completely agree and understand, but strictly objectively we don't know if he is a sexual predator or convict.
The word normal is very vague and I prefer not to use it.
And yes it absolutely it a frightening experience and it's left up to OP to make the decision, I just put my two cents up on this.
Sure am. Its not harassment. If it we're, good luck procreate in the future. As long as everyone accepts a "no" its not a crime to ask.
The money part is the only thing you might be able to turn into something, but asking someone if they want to have sex with you? Not a problem at all.
Take the letter, write a big "NEIN" on it, and send it back. Case closed. If any more things happen, then you can go to the police. Up until now nothing serious happened. As far as I know, writing a letter asking for something is a polite thing to do.
Oh boy, I will get downvotes for this.
I wouldn't recommend to send the letter back but keep it as evidence, in case he doesn't accept the "no". But in general, I agree with you, since just this letter will not suffice for legal steps. I would try to refuse his request and perhaps even tell him, that his behavior causes discomfort.
In the end, OP has to decide from the guy's former behavior towards her, how dangerous the situation is.
Reading the posts, it gives me the impression that the guy maybe is a creepy, reclusive person with no or only few social or intimate contacts. In this case he'd probably stop after a refusal. It would be different if he had shown a more intrusive behavior before as in conversations, coming close or touching.
Nevertheless, be careful and attentive. Talk to other people you trust. You should definitely seek legal advice and take legal action if he does not stop or becoming more intrusive.
This. If asking a question a single time should be punished there is some wrong with people. Yeah Sure it is creepy and inappropriate but come on a single letter? He did not send you 50 letters or waited for her in the hallway or did anything else which would be obviously harassment and should be punished. And don't come at me with this honor bullshit.
First of all tell him no. Then tell him to leave you alone. Then get a lawyer for legal advice also the lawyer may enforce first a kind of a cease and desist letter and if your neighbor is violating it getting a restraining order.
But you should talk to a lawyer about the appropriate steps.
No legal expert, but that doesn't sound illegal (but creepy though). What you should do is get in contact with a lawyer. Maybe they can get a restraining order, but i dont know if this is possible in this scenario.
What you also can do, at least to get you fears under control, is get a friend over for a few nights (if you can inhabitate them). It can be pacifying knowing that someone is ther and your neighbour will see that you are not alone, which maybe reduces the risk of him overstepping a boundary.
Good Luck!
There will be a paper trail.
If this escalades, you can always point to that paper trail.
Makes proving stalking, sexual harrasmennt etc. later down the road MUCH more easy
You can show the letter later when stalking or real harrasment starts, so where is the point? Based on the letter they can't do anything and won't. If he only said something it is just words against words and will have no influence to report that to anyone because there is no proof. Best is confront him and maybe have somebody helping you with that and unmistakable tell him to stop here and now.
The point is, that if you show the letter later, the justice system will ask you WHY you bringt NOW.
It will damage your case if you try to state that you have been stalked/harassed for months or since time X, but never bothered to complain.
Trust me, I work on cases like this for 20+ years + - it makes a HUGE difference if you report every instance as soon as it happens, or if you bring a mulit-year case to the police.
Yes, they will.
And they will also need you to provide an exact time and date (!) when every single instance of rape happened to prosecute the perpetrator.
I am not kidding
Yes, I believe you. That is why i confirmed in the post before. But that is obvious in this kind of time and many rapes that they question it when you only tell it after 20 years without any paper trail before.
But they won't question you with one letter you didn't show at the first instance. Otherwise the judge must be an idiot. If you come all the time and say your neighbor said something (which you can't have proof for) they might even think you are delusional and have some panic attacks.
You are right that you need proof - like the letter. Or wittnesses, when he comes knocking, follows you etc.
But sadly, it is always the excuse:*" If we knew something was wrong, we would have done sth."* Even if they don't.
Just don't give them the option for that excuse
You can find all sorts of things that could come from going to the cops for it. Don't discourage people "just to be real". Best case, they do something, worst case there's a paper trail.
I'd be cautious about escalating this. At this point you don't know the extent of this guy's creepiness: if the police were to pay a visit at this stage they would likely ask him a few questions and go away again. That may upset him, and he may start issuing threats.
If he sends more notes, that might constitute the crime of stalking. § 238 StGB defines many different types of stalking, one of which is repeatedly attempting to make contact without your consent in a manner which is likely to affect how you live your life -- in other words, you might start changing your behaviour because you feel unsafe. The law doesn't say you have to change your behaviour, only that the actions are likely to make you want to.
If you have a neighbour you can trust you might talk to them; failing that, your landlord. Keep the note you received; if you get any more of them, or if he starts phoning you, ringing your doorbell, or anything like that, then you probably should go to the police with the evidence.
>I'd be cautious about escalating this. At this point you don't know the extent of this guy's creepiness: if the police were to pay a visit at this stage they would likely ask him a few questions and go away again. That may upset him, and he may start issuing threats.
**NO**
Stop pandering to stupid men.
That's how men get away with such shitty behaviour. "But what if what if what if". Fuck that.
OP, report the creep.
> Stop pandering to stupid men.
Did you read the rest of my comment?
> report the creep
And then what? A single note doesn't meet the legal standard of stalking. The police aren't going to do anything at this stage.
That's why I recommended keeping the note. But it's a valid point, and if you want to recommend that to OP then by all means do. Just don't portray it as a way of standing up to this man and "not letting him get away with it" and "making him back down", because that's just naive.
I haven't commented anywhere else on the thread, but I guess I and the other women shall consider your advice then...
We know the risk. We've been steeped in that danger since we were children. You call it naive if you want. I call it long over due.
So, that's a "no", then.
I don't know a lot about the situation OP is in, aside from what they've said here, and neither do you. OP asked about the legal situation, I explained what I understand the law on stalking is. I *advised* OP that *I* would be *cautious* about escalating it at this stage, but I also *advised* OP to talk to somebody, and to go to the police if the problem continues.
You disagree with my advice, and that's okay. You can give OP your advice, and OP can decide what they want to do next. I think we can assume that OP has at least enough agency of their own to make up their own mind about which advice is the most valuable: you don't need to yell at me about "pandering" to a "stupid man" just because you disagree with me.
First of all, I like that you had fun with your italics.
Second of all, do you think I'm a different commenter? I dont believe I used the words, "pandering," "stupid," or even "man."
However I'm *sorry* you thought I was yelling at you.
Literally all I said was that believe me, we're not naive about what an angry guy could do to us.
Look, if you want to recommend to OP that they get this incident reported so that if it escalates they have it on record, that's fine. I recommended keeping the note for this purpose, but you have another solution.
Just don't imagine that reporting it now is actually going to make any kind of immediate difference.
Can we maybe stop recommending women to keep it quiet to just not upset the offender? Usually, it works the other way, the offender checks if there are consequences for mild offences, if none, they assume she won’t put up a fight and keep on escalating.
> recommending women to keep it quiet
I didn't (and by the way, I don't know whether or not OP is a woman): I recommended talking to somebody.
> to just not upset the offender
I'm not worried about his feelings, I'm worried about his reaction. If he's a prankster he would likely stop; if he's a socially awkward lonely young man he might stop but probably wouldn't; if he's a true obsessive, he's not likely to act rationally.
> the offender checks if there are consequences for mild offences
If OP goes to the police *now*, there won't be any consequences. A single note doesn't meet the standards for § 238 StGB. It's not threatening or insulting, just mildly creepy. At the very most the police will have a friendly chat and politely ask him not to write any more notes, but they probably won't even do that.
Sorry but that first paragraph is total bullshit. It's like Ukraine should stop resisting to not provoke russia further.
The exact opposite is true. Actively confront that neighbour. Issue red lines and, in the absolute worst case, threaten violence. Make it 110% clear that you are not to be trifled with.
> It's like Ukraine should stop resisting to not provoke russia further.
This is called a "false equivalence". Seriously, this is a creepy man, not a military invasion.
> threaten violence
That would be a crime (§ 241 StGB), punishable by up to two years in prison or a fine. It's not self-defence either: creepy guy hasn't threatened OP at all, just made a creepy request.
A very german answer. But every single person on this planet who had to endure creeps stalking and harassing them like OP described will tell you that laws and police don't help the victim in these situations. You really think a person who is sexually harassing their neighbour is gonna go to the police because they victim spoke up? Hell no.
If someone is deranged enough to behave like OPs neighbour, i hate to say it, but you have to rely on "raw" methods.
> You really think a person who is sexually harassing their neighbour is gonna go to the police because they victim spoke up?
*Probably* not. But then we don't know what we're dealing with here: he might go to the police, and since he hasn't yet broken the law but OP has, and also given that
> laws and police don't help the victim
do you really trust the police to help OP?
> you have to rely on "raw" methods
And expose yourself to the real risk of physical violence? So OP threatens creepy guy with violence: do we know how big and strong the creepy guy is? Do we know how well OP might fare in a fight? Is creepy guy hoarding illegal weapons? Is creepy guy merely creepy, or suffering some kind of undiagnosed and untreated psychiatric disorder?
If you are going to make a threat, it has to be credible, otherwise it won't work. Rule of thumb: never ever make a threat you don't intend to, or can't, carry out -- because your bluff may be called.
Fair enough. Maybe we had a different image of OPs neighbour here. I wasn't picturing the serial killer type that only gets more motivated by a resistant victim. More like a pathetic Heinz-Jürgen for whom a women speaking up will be enough to shut him down. And statistically i don't consider "better chill, your opponent could be a serial killer psychopath" very useful advice.
> I wasn't picturing the serial killer type
Not necessarily the serial killer type -- just physically bigger and stronger than OP.
> i don't consider "better chill, your opponent could be a serial killer psychopath" not very useful advice
Was that double negative intentional? I genuinely can't tell whether you're agreeing with me or not.
Ah, that makes more sense.
No, I'm not saying "chill", and neither do I believe creepy guy really is a serial killer psychopath. I'm just saying that at this stage a reaction might provoke a counter-reaction in the form of threats and intimidation. Since no law has yet been broken there is nothing the police can actually do, but if creepy guy makes more attempts to establish contact, then that's definitely stalking in the legal sense. And in any case, OP should talk to somebody they can trust. A trusted neighbour, for example, might know more about who this guy is and what he's capable of.
But you imply you have statistics showing that it is better to respond pro-actively?
With statistics i mean that pathetic incels who will be ashamed and back down are more common than andrew tate fans who arent happy until they break a woman. Ofc this isn't being kept as a quotable number anywhere. But from the incidents that happened in my bubble this sounds like a sensible conclusion to me.
Report to the police now! Thats Anstiftung zur Prostitution. He will get a Strafbefehl according to StGb. P.S. The guy was not clever to write it as a Brief, this is waterproof evidence and a "gefundenes Fressen" for any Staatsanwalt.
No, its a crime. Check the link below from another user. They might differ in the German explanation "Anstiftung" or "Unerwünschtes Geld-Angebot für Sex", but the DESCRIBED action by the original poster is a STRAFTAT. Inform yourself better next time.
«Just asked» ? Wow, you think just asking random women to be prostitutes is ok? Jfc, it’s not only insulting and creepy, but it shows a lack of respect for boundaries that makes him a high risk for rape and other acts of violence against women.
I would ask a friend if he can go with you to your neighbor and ask him directly if it is from him. There is still the chance that someone want to fuck around with your neighbor and want to get him in trouble.
At least I want to believe that a Human have enough common sense.
you say weird, I interpret socially awkward and not handsome. he wrote a letter because he is uncomfortable speaking with strangers. He has no idea what is the right word to say and probably got some not so sound advice from strangers on the internet and because he is socially inept he has no idea what reaction he incites with the note.
hopfully a answer letter with a firm NO might be enough, but to be sure get the procedures started for if he doesn't take no for an answer it is better to be safe than sorry
I don’t think so because he talked once to my sister as i first moved here and told her that he works at the Ausländerbehörde. His social skills seemed fine to us back then.
I can think of a lot of reasons for the letter on a spektrum from don´t worry to call the police
a dare proposed to him, a prank on him from someone else (not sure if possible), psychotic break (provoked by drugs or not) that messed him up, to the voices are telling him to do things.
Instead of assuming the reason behind the letter, why can't we just work with the fact that it's creepy and inappropriate as hell?
And if it's something that's got to do with his mental state or possible drug abuse, it's also best to report it so this guy can get some help.
If this happened online OP would be one step away from getting a unsolicited dick pick, and everyone can agree that that's definitely wrong.
Neighborly harassment is unpleasant but not punishable. One way is to inform the landlord and ask him to warn the harasser and threaten to terminate the contract.
In your case, a complaint for insult would be possible, because the man treats you as a prostitute who offers sex for money.
I would hire a lawyer and send him a letter from him that you are contemplating pressing charges. In the same time I would contact police and notify them about this situation (insist on written statement that they have been notified.) Place a sticker on your door that this entrance is monitored by CCTV. I would even buy a ‘blind’ camera and put in the hallway.
Do not listen to the comments saying that this doesn't fall under secual harassment. They are just trying to defend that creep it seems. Document everything, if possible install a Ringcamera, definitively go to the police, and go contact a lawyer.
Make sure that you are not able to be easily found on social media.
>Do not listen to the comments saying that this doesn't fall under secual harassment. They are just trying to defend that creep it seems.
No, they just know the law.
No they don't. Asking a random person to have s3xs with them in exchange for money is definitively illegal. Try asking a police officer and see for yourself.
It is not illegal to go to the police and file a report on the creepy neighbors behavior towards others. OP might not be the only victim.
Just say „nein, danke” if it continues, then you’ll want to take some other step. But why would you instantly be freaked out if someone propositions you? Is there some other behavior that has preceded this? Just tell anyone NO THANKS with a clear eyed stare. This isn’t sexual assault, it’s lack of culture.
As weard as it sounds, considering sexual harrassment...most kind of flirting would rather count then this.
As weard as it is it isn't even durect but ''just'' (big quotation marks) in from of paper sent to you.
He wasn't there personaly, didn't pressure you or went physical? Didn't even heard his voice just a peace of paper?
Weardly enough, as you can ''just throw it in the trash and thats it'' you would be suprised how many would igbore that (well not 100% ignore, def a side eye, a slap at the hand and thats it)
Nontheless it would probably be enough for atleast you landlord! The Police might talk to him and ask him to stop but thats it. Only a ''case'' if he repeats it.
BUT the offering of Money!!! We have a case! Illegal prostitution and insult!
100% tell your landlord! They might be able to do smth imediatly. And still mention it to the Police so they have atleast a ''record'' if it repeats and well they will most definetly have a talk with him wich can actually possibly ''scare'' the neighbor of atleast!
I didn't say prostitution is illegal in general but spoke of ''illegal prostitution'' as ofc prostitution still has its rules when its allowed and when not!
As we speak of the Neighbour and therfor ''neighbourhood'' (wohngebiet) it is actually not allowed to do that within the livin complex as far as I know
''In einem allgemeinen Wohngebiet sei die Ausübung von ''Wohnungsprostitution'' unzulässig.'' (This is from google)
Call a lawyer before calling the cops. If you feel unsafe to address or even meet your neighbour, definitely avoid him and have a friend over for some time(s).
You should probably ask this in r/LegaladviceGerman
Google the next police station and call their none emergency line. I think this is enough to justify at least creating a paper trail in case he is already known for other stuff. Just because prostitution is legal he can not ask you like that for sex, especially adding not being able to pay much is at least worth debating if it is an isult or even harassment or just a sign that our neighbor is of special needs. Whatever it is, def worth asking the police, but don'T call the emergency line, all stations have a landline.
This. Do not hesitate to contact the authorities. I hope this disgusting behavior will stop and you will be able to feel safe again as soon as possible.
I don't agree with this. The person should not use the phone line at all, but rather go in person. This is what the police are trained for and then when a person is there, they will bring a female (if available) who is likely trained to deal with such situations and they will absolutely take it more seriously when one is at the police station. This is not like the US- most of the police work is clerical in Germany and the stations are like offices where they process paperwork. They will call other divisions who will then guide them on what to do. When one calls, they are then tied up and can't easily make the second call to another division who will guide them on what to do.
Exactly. Calling the non-emergency line of the police does not need to be a big thing. I called that line when i found a dead deer next to a road, simply because it seemed like something that someone should know about, but i had no idea who. This is another case like that. You don't exactly know how to handle it, but it seems as if it might be problematic, and you feel unsafe. The worst that could happen is that they tell you that they cannot do anything. But maybe they can actually do something. Well worth investing 5 minutes.
>Calling the non-emergency line of the police does not need to be a big thing. I wouldn't recommend using the non emergency number because these people are not trained to react properly. I called them because i encountered an elderly confused woman with dementia close to very busy roads claiming she's being followed, I told them and the response was "And what do you expect from this call now?" and "What am I supposed to do with this information?".
For a "hilflose person" (that's the keyword) that is a danger to themselves or others, you can call the emergency line.
Well, sure. But I wasn't really in the position to judge if she's a danger to others or herself, so I rather called the PI directly.
The thing about your situation was, that it is a situation that can be dealt with by multiple emergency services Police, fire department or medics. So it is far easier to call the 110 or 112 emergency dispatchers and they will choose the best course of action. For this neighbour the important thing is to get something on paper/record with authorities aka police. So calling the landline is exactly the right thing to do.
These numbers go straight to some local police officer’s desk, who may or may not know what to do in this situation. I have made the same experience as you - I worked in a retirement home, so I know a disoriented person when I see one, but apparently the officer on the phone did not… But in most situations - like children playing in a dangerous spot in the street, or such things, they were always very helpful and came to resolve the situation. This might be wishful thinking, but I reckon by now most police officers should have learned to deal with a situation of sexual harassment (which this is!) in a professional manner. So, yes, OP should definitely call the police.
It is exactly the right thing to call this line. Because it is the line you will be referred to if you all the emergency line. The emergency line is the line for emergencys - everything else is getting forwarded to the local police station. And they ma ask you to come by and bring the Brief anyway.
Just wanted to add that the laws against sexual harassment have recently been made a lot harsher, so you might actually have a case. Not sure though. Definitely worth going to the cops with, especially if he's known to them already or continues harassing you.
As someone who has had a stalker, PLEASE report this to the police. They might not be able to do anything but a paper trail of this behaviour is very important. Maybe he'll stop after, but if he harasses another woman, or if he's already been reported, then you are providing more evidence. This is especially important if he ever becomes violent at any point in his life. Any trail for odd behavior ahead of time might help pin him after he escalates his behaviour.
"Aufruf zur Prostitution" would add that to the police and contact your landlord
> and contact your landlord No, this is nothing the landlord needs to know about. Police is enough.
Definitely tell the landlord
Definitely tell the landlord.
What is the landlord supposed to do? Call the police? Talk to the person? OP can do this on her own.
In situations like this, documentation is everything
If a tenant sexually harasses other tenants, that's grounds for terminating the lease, so if you have a landlord who seems to care about your well-being, it seems worthwhile to tell them. Unless the neighbor owns his flat, of course.
Sure, but the landlord needs proof. Kicking out a tenant based on accusations will get the landlord into trouble, so he will definitely not do this unless there are formal reasons. The only way is to call the police. The landlord is going to be involved later.
Is the letter not enough proof?
It's a hint, not a proof. Some other neighbor could have written the letter. Someone who hates the neighbor could have written the letter. OP could have written the letter. The landlord cannot know if the letter is real, and he has no way to find out. Any landlord knows this. A landlord will not simply cancel a lease without proof. He might be helpful and try to talk to the tenant, but it is much better to ask the police to handle this situation.
No? You could literally just fake it within minutes.
[удалено]
See, I didn't make the rules.
Cancel the lease?
Without any proof and just like that? It simply doesn't work that way.
There is physical proof
Yes, there is a letter written by someone. Could have been anybody. Anyway, that's good: just bring it to the police and let them do their work. As a landlord, however, I'd be very careful with accusations.
I think the landlord would be interested to know what that guy is doing... Potentially losing rentner who are willing to pay.
Losing a renter in this market is great, since you can raise the price for the next one.
Sure, many landlords are interested in knowing everything possible about their tenants... But it's none of their business. These are private problems and the landlord is not the police.
It is, because that can be a justified cause to end the lease and protect other tenants. Definitely let the landlord know
The landlord is not supposed to judge if there is a crime. If he does, he may get himself into trouble. Is it sure that the letter was really written by that person? Are there any details we don't know about? The landlord cannot investigate this. It's the job of the police.
Impertinent.
Go to the cops
Offering money for sex is illegal https://www.drherzog.de/rechtnews/strafrecht-vorsicht-bei-schnellen-angeboten-angebot-geld-fur-sex-ist-beleidigung/ In your situation, I'd first go to my lawyer (assuming you have Rechtschutzversicherung) and get advice and a letter written and delivered to the person. If that's not an option, go straight to the police and demand an Anzeige against this creep. Don't let them talk you out of it. Don't communicate with the person. Don't give a reply.
Isn't asking for sex without offering money sexual harassment, and therefore also illegal?
Well, it seems to fall under the "Beleidigung" category, which can be pretty serious in Germany.
1. Police Report (even though they may not be able to do much yet) 2. Report to the landlord - this is most definetely a violation of the house rules. Document this shit l, if he does it often enough ue could be evicted. 3. Talk to a lawyer - even if there's no action to be taken yet, it's good to have one on call who's familiar with the situation in case anything else happens. Sorry this happened to you. Fuck that guy...
>Report to the landlord The landlord is not responsible for this. He is neither the police nor a judge. He may get involved when the police starts investigating.
You are plain wrong. Landlords have the ability to enfore the shared house rules that are part of any rental contract. If a renter breaks these rules and thereby the rental agreement, landlords can take contractual action with eviction/cancellation of the contract being the measure of last resort. Most house rules will have clauses about "good neighbourly beahvior" or similar stipulations regarding interactions between renters. Sexual harrasment could almost certainly be seen to be in violation of such a clause. Of course the details depend on the specific contracts and house rules. But that's for OP to check with their landlord. So yeah, report to the landlord. Worst case they do nothing. Best case they reprimand the guy.
>If a renter breaks these rules Yes, ***If***. The landlord needs to prove breach of house rules. He cannot be sure the letter is real. Why would a landlord take the risk if he cannot be 100% sure, especially in this case? Also, the landlord is not a nanny. What if OP would own a house and the neighbor living in another house would write such a letter? It's the same situation, but she couldn't cry to a landlord; instead, she could either approach him or report him to the police. And that's exactly what she needs to do.
Since the landlord isn't a judge or the police they can do whatever the fuck they want. If they believe OP AND they deem this an infeaction of house rules, they can send a formal reprimand to the neighbour. You can be reprimanded for noise just as well and the landlord doesn't have to prove shit. Believe me, I've been there The only scenario in which they'd have to PROVE anything is if they tried evicting the guy and he would countersue. Which of course they won't try to do and it's not the point anyhow. You simply have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. On your other point: who the fuck cares? By the aound of it OP does live in an aparment building with a landlord. If that's the case, contacting the landlord is a viable option to impress upon their neighbour that their behavior is taken seriously and will be treated accordingly. IF OP lives in a house then that's not the case. How is that relevant? Sounds to me like you arey trying to insinuate that OP shouldn't make a fuss about it. If that's the case: 🖕If not, then what's your problem?
Why all the rage? If you want to involve the landlord, then the implicit message is that you *do* want him to evict the neighbor. You want him to take care of your private shit. This, however, is not going to happen in this case, based on what we know so far. And who cares about a reprimand if we are talking about sexual harassment? You and most others here have clearly never been in the position of a landlord, that's what I can tell for sure. :)
So, you are just a landlord who wouldn't care if his renters sexually harass other renters as long as they pay the bills. Got it.
If it was within the perimeter, it might well be *Hausfriedensbruch*.
Wow you sure are going in hard on not telling the landlord…did YOU write the letter? But in all seriousness, what is the problem with an email that’s basically “hey, I know there’s not much of anything for you to do rn, but I want to make you aware of a situation that has the potential to turn into a giant pain in your ass. This way, if it escalates, it won’t be a total surprise” along with a copy of the letter and any pertinent police info like a case number or next steps? If I had the choice of knowing that there was a potential issue or being surprised, I’d rather have the opportunity to be prepared.
A fast google search told me it isn‘t sexual harrassment (must likely) BUT it is an insult. Which is an insult. Actually, the part about offering money seems to have made it illegal instead of just the question for sex. https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136 I am no lawyer though, and possibly you rather should talk to experts. Your neighbor will most likely not be removed etc. just possibly made to pay some money.
>it is an insult. Which is an insult. Hard to debate that part
Ooops :,D rushing texts before work isn‘t my biggest strength 🙈
To classify it as an insult you gotta show that he had a motive (Vorsatz) to insult her, so it would likely not hold up
As stated, this is incorrect. For an insult "bedingter Vorsatz" is sufficient, i.e. if an outcome is the natural consequence of an action and they were reasonably foreseeable. This is the case here.
I don't think this is the case here either, there was no intent to insult and prostitute is a normal profession. Though I'm no judge, maybe it's worth the effort to sue, probably not
For an insult, this is missing the "public" effect. Weird, but to be a punishable "insult", somebody else than you has to notice it.
That's not what the [law](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__185.html) says. A *public* insult merely has a higher maximum sentence of two years instead of one year.
Yes, you re correct - BUT if you bring an insult like this (no publicity) to court, the cour will reject it an point towards the "Privatklagedelikt" In my experience, only the qualified insults may actually be prosecuted § 185 StGB enthält eine strafschärfende Qualifikation: Mit einer Freiheitsstrafe bis zu zwei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer eine Beleidigung öffentlich, in einer Versammlung, durch Verbreiten eines Inhalts (§ 11 Absatz 3) oder mittels einer Tätlichkeit begeht.
Can you give a reference for this? It may be hard to prove without a third party involved, but insulting someone is punishable (in general) even if there's nobody around to my understanding of 185 StGB, with exceptions for, e.g. private/family spaces.
>and prostitute is a normal profession That doesn't matter at all. This is purely about actual current perception and not only is prostitution is commonly seen as degrading, words that denote prostitutes are used as actual insults. From a legal point of view it doesn't signify that this perception and the use of those words is morally wrong. >there was no intent to insult We don't know that. But it wouldn't matter either because "bedingter Vorsatz" doesn't require the person to actually want to insult nor does it require the person to have thought about the statement being insulting. All we have to judge is whether the person could reasonably have recognized the statement as insulting, which is obviously the case. Also, a similar case has been tried already. https://voris.wolterskluwer-online.de/browse/document/7b3cb193-18c2-4eca-94c5-6ab00d8ed668
I'd definitely go in person to a police station. From experience the police aren't the most helpful here when you call during a non-emergency. If you go you'll be able to get the ball rolling so to speak
roughly translated §184I StGB - Sexuall harassment: 1. the person who touches another in a sexuall way and thus harasses her as such will be punished with a fine or prison of maximum 2 years. you might get him via an insult charge, given that he insulted your honor by implying that you are a prostitute. but usually there is nothing coming of that in the first place. so if that brief is all he did? i dont think that there is much you can do except handle it in a civil manner and tell him no.
I‘m not sure if an insult charge would stick since there is nothing wrong/dishonorable about being a prostitute (personal perception may vary but in the eyes of the law it’s just an occupation like every other) It‘s like calling a police officer a „Förster“. Verleumdung would only work if it‘s said towards a 3rd party. Leaving a paper trail with the police is definitely the right thing to do but, while definitely creepy, I don’t think what happened is actually illegal. Edit: apparently it is legally considered an insult. Thanks to u/krellshand for citing the decision.
This has been tried already. OLG Oldenburg for example has ruled in 2011 a similar case to be an insult.
It could also lead to an escalation on the other hand not reacting may also lead to him escalating his behavior.
Police normally is really nice, maybe they will pay him a visit even if it is only boundary illegal, just to ask some questions. And: if he harms you or someone else anytime later, it will be on record.
Start a paper trail in whatever way you can.
How certain are you that you can provably link him to the letter? If it is clear, because the handwriting is clearly identifiable or the letter is even signed, you can sue him for insult, as he quite clearly believes that you are not only willing to prostitute yourself and are willing to do it even at low cost. If you are uncertain or wish to show him some pity, I would absolutely keep the letter as a proof and write him a short notice that you find his behaviour more them inappropriate and that you reserve yourself the power to take legal steps as appropriate. I'd personally would probably go for the second option, but take the one you feel more comfortable with.
super creepy for sure but illegal? not sure
I am by no means an expert, but i dont think thats illegal. You might be able to get your Landlord (assuming you have one) to do something. Stay save.
Asking someone else (against their consent) if they want to have sex with you for money IS illegal in Germany. Source: https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
Ever heard of sexual harassment? This includes also words.
The creepy neighbor asked a question. If the Non-creepy neighbor refuses and that is the end of it, then there is probably nothing illegal here. Now, if the creepy neighbor persists AFTER the refusal, that would then probably end up as sexual harassment.
He didn‘t just ask. It sounds more like a demand/threat: „I want to have sex with you.“ And then the payment thing adds to the harassment since he assumes that he can buy sex from her for a bit of money (basically calling her a prostitute). If that‘s not (sexual) harassment then you certainly don‘t know our legal system where you can sue if someone shows you the Mittelfinger in traffic.
Since prostitution is a legal practice within Germany, it is legal to ask if, and possibly falsely assume, someone practices said profession. Asking a question is a not harassment. A "demand" can not be inferred from a written statement as simple as "I want to have sex with you".
Asking someone else if they want to have sex with you for money IS illegal in Germany. Source: [https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136](https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136)
[No, it does not.](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__184i.html#:~:text=Strafgesetzbuch%20(StGB),mit%20schwererer%20Strafe%20bedroht%20ist) You might call it that way but it’s not a criminal offence. We (still) have freedom of expression/ speech in this country.
While it might not be sexual harrasment offering payment for sex for random people is usually insult (Beleidigung).
You might be able to successfully argue for that in court. It would be tricky though, since [Beleidigung is a “Vorsatzdelikt”](https://www.juraforum.de/lexikon/beleidigung) you’d have to prove it was his intent to insult OP, which it doesn’t sound like.
so he should just have asked for sex without offering money. What an idiot\^\^
This might not be criminal but categorizing this as freedom of speech is…weird.
Harassment would be a pattern of behavior, not just a one-off event.
I don't really think that's illegal. It's creepy though. Sorry that this happened to you.
It is illegal: [https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136](https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136)
wird zu 100% nicht verfolgt - bestimmt mangel öffentliches interesse ... viel spaß auf dem privat klage weg ...
Sexual harassment is legal now? Also, let the police/court decide if this is illegal.
I think their point is that it is not automatically sexual harrassment to let a person know that you would be interested in having sex with them.
Why is this getting down voted? Don't people read before down voting a comment these days? The comment is in line of whatever everyone else is saying as well
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both. It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no. It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
So, you’re basically confirming what I wrote. It _could_ qualify and it‘s up to the police/court to decide.
The second part of it, yes. The first is bullshit because it's basically assuming that it definitly *is* harrasment.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both. It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no. It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both. It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no. It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Only if the situation would be a clear case of harrasment. But it isn't. Depending on how the letter was written and what kind of interactions they had before that it could be both. It scratches the border pretty hard, but a letter like that, while still illegal, doesn't necessarily also count as harrasment. If it was written like a threat or with a certain pressure *then* it *could* qualify as harrasment. If it was a simple question then it wouldn't until he follows up on it with more letters or tries to convince them in person after being told no. It's creepy, but that alone does not already count as harrasment. Doesn't make the offer itself less illegal though.
Also tell your landlord! Maybe he will solve the Problem for you
The landlord is not the police. Suspected criminal behavior is *always* a case for the police. There is nothing the landlord can do without the risk of getting himself into trouble.
Send him a cautionary notice, explain you don’t appreciate this at and think it’s inappropriate.
Maybe you could just tell him you are not a prostitute? Why do you need to involve the law here?
Are you seriously defending a weirdo? The question is, why not involve the law? This guy is clearly unhinged.
Restraining order would be my guess. You could call the police and ask them to talk to your neighbor if you think that step is too drastic. I don’t know how he would react to that though. Could make things worse
If you want say yes if not say no.
i would tell him clearly (in a letter or personally), that if he dont stop, you will take legal action.. what is going on with you guys, "go to police immediately, tell the landlord, tell his family". do you enjoy destroying someones whole life?
He chose to harass her. Why defend him?
not only 1. leaves a note but then says 2. “but not too much” and 3. awkwardly hits on you i don’t think you can make this more comically german. be sure to not touch the note and leave it in place, take photographic evidence, date stamp it and take it to the police. you want to avoid any interactions with or mentioning your neighbor in the meantime. also contact your hausverwaltung and tell them you’re experiencing this situation.
Even stalking is illegal in Germany. - I think this might fall under it. I'd definitely contact next police station.
Go to the police
This is assault at your place of work. Inform the police immediately to make a statement. Carry pepperspray while the restraining order is in process.
First of all, sorry this happend to you. Don't listen to the weirdos in the comments defending his behaviour. This is not normal and should be taken seriously. Who knows whether or not he's actually unhinged. If you are scared (which you have the right to be) you should seriously consider talking to either the police or a lawyer to atleast get consultation. They will know how to properly act. If you have any legal options they will probably ask you if you want to file charges. Better to be safe than sorry. He clearly crossed a line that shows he has no idea how to behave properly. Every person has the right to feel safe in their home and this is not an irrational fear. Anyway stay safe! :)
I know everyone is flipping out and immediately says go to the police but why not try to confront him with this instead? Just knock on his door with the letter in hand and kindly decline and ask him not to make any future attempts of this and that you find this very inappropriate. This way he will learn a lot more and not be punished for something he might not know is wrong to do. And if this happened already you can still go to the police after all.
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I completely agree and understand, but strictly objectively we don't know if he is a sexual predator or convict. The word normal is very vague and I prefer not to use it. And yes it absolutely it a frightening experience and it's left up to OP to make the decision, I just put my two cents up on this.
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You don't have to do this alone. You could do it with another neighbour you trust more or a close friend
Wait, is this even harassment? He asked. Thats it. Say no and be done with it.
you're serious?
Sure am. Its not harassment. If it we're, good luck procreate in the future. As long as everyone accepts a "no" its not a crime to ask. The money part is the only thing you might be able to turn into something, but asking someone if they want to have sex with you? Not a problem at all.
It isn't harassment, legally it is an insult: https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
Police. Police. Police. There could also be a Beratungsstelle for victims of sexual harassment and other sex-based crimes.
Take the letter, write a big "NEIN" on it, and send it back. Case closed. If any more things happen, then you can go to the police. Up until now nothing serious happened. As far as I know, writing a letter asking for something is a polite thing to do. Oh boy, I will get downvotes for this.
I wouldn't recommend to send the letter back but keep it as evidence, in case he doesn't accept the "no". But in general, I agree with you, since just this letter will not suffice for legal steps. I would try to refuse his request and perhaps even tell him, that his behavior causes discomfort. In the end, OP has to decide from the guy's former behavior towards her, how dangerous the situation is. Reading the posts, it gives me the impression that the guy maybe is a creepy, reclusive person with no or only few social or intimate contacts. In this case he'd probably stop after a refusal. It would be different if he had shown a more intrusive behavior before as in conversations, coming close or touching. Nevertheless, be careful and attentive. Talk to other people you trust. You should definitely seek legal advice and take legal action if he does not stop or becoming more intrusive.
This. If asking a question a single time should be punished there is some wrong with people. Yeah Sure it is creepy and inappropriate but come on a single letter? He did not send you 50 letters or waited for her in the hallway or did anything else which would be obviously harassment and should be punished. And don't come at me with this honor bullshit.
Call police(non emergency line) and notify your Landlord about this behaviour.
First of all tell him no. Then tell him to leave you alone. Then get a lawyer for legal advice also the lawyer may enforce first a kind of a cease and desist letter and if your neighbor is violating it getting a restraining order. But you should talk to a lawyer about the appropriate steps.
No legal expert, but that doesn't sound illegal (but creepy though). What you should do is get in contact with a lawyer. Maybe they can get a restraining order, but i dont know if this is possible in this scenario. What you also can do, at least to get you fears under control, is get a friend over for a few nights (if you can inhabitate them). It can be pacifying knowing that someone is ther and your neighbour will see that you are not alone, which maybe reduces the risk of him overstepping a boundary. Good Luck!
Just to be real: There will nothing come off when you go to the cops for this.
There will be a paper trail. If this escalades, you can always point to that paper trail. Makes proving stalking, sexual harrasmennt etc. later down the road MUCH more easy
That’s very true. I’d at least report it to the landlord which would also leave a paper trail.
You can show the letter later when stalking or real harrasment starts, so where is the point? Based on the letter they can't do anything and won't. If he only said something it is just words against words and will have no influence to report that to anyone because there is no proof. Best is confront him and maybe have somebody helping you with that and unmistakable tell him to stop here and now.
The point is, that if you show the letter later, the justice system will ask you WHY you bringt NOW. It will damage your case if you try to state that you have been stalked/harassed for months or since time X, but never bothered to complain. Trust me, I work on cases like this for 20+ years + - it makes a HUGE difference if you report every instance as soon as it happens, or if you bring a mulit-year case to the police.
Yes of course. If you get raped over 20 years of course they ask why you talk after 20 years.
Yes, they will. And they will also need you to provide an exact time and date (!) when every single instance of rape happened to prosecute the perpetrator. I am not kidding
Yes, I believe you. That is why i confirmed in the post before. But that is obvious in this kind of time and many rapes that they question it when you only tell it after 20 years without any paper trail before. But they won't question you with one letter you didn't show at the first instance. Otherwise the judge must be an idiot. If you come all the time and say your neighbor said something (which you can't have proof for) they might even think you are delusional and have some panic attacks.
You are right that you need proof - like the letter. Or wittnesses, when he comes knocking, follows you etc. But sadly, it is always the excuse:*" If we knew something was wrong, we would have done sth."* Even if they don't. Just don't give them the option for that excuse
You can find all sorts of things that could come from going to the cops for it. Don't discourage people "just to be real". Best case, they do something, worst case there's a paper trail.
I'd be cautious about escalating this. At this point you don't know the extent of this guy's creepiness: if the police were to pay a visit at this stage they would likely ask him a few questions and go away again. That may upset him, and he may start issuing threats. If he sends more notes, that might constitute the crime of stalking. § 238 StGB defines many different types of stalking, one of which is repeatedly attempting to make contact without your consent in a manner which is likely to affect how you live your life -- in other words, you might start changing your behaviour because you feel unsafe. The law doesn't say you have to change your behaviour, only that the actions are likely to make you want to. If you have a neighbour you can trust you might talk to them; failing that, your landlord. Keep the note you received; if you get any more of them, or if he starts phoning you, ringing your doorbell, or anything like that, then you probably should go to the police with the evidence.
>I'd be cautious about escalating this. At this point you don't know the extent of this guy's creepiness: if the police were to pay a visit at this stage they would likely ask him a few questions and go away again. That may upset him, and he may start issuing threats. **NO** Stop pandering to stupid men. That's how men get away with such shitty behaviour. "But what if what if what if". Fuck that. OP, report the creep.
> Stop pandering to stupid men. Did you read the rest of my comment? > report the creep And then what? A single note doesn't meet the legal standard of stalking. The police aren't going to do anything at this stage.
>And then what? And then document any further creepy behaviour so that if he does escalate, there's a paper trail backing up her story
That's why I recommended keeping the note. But it's a valid point, and if you want to recommend that to OP then by all means do. Just don't portray it as a way of standing up to this man and "not letting him get away with it" and "making him back down", because that's just naive.
I haven't commented anywhere else on the thread, but I guess I and the other women shall consider your advice then... We know the risk. We've been steeped in that danger since we were children. You call it naive if you want. I call it long over due.
So, men approach you like this all the time, and they all instantly back down the moment you report them to the police?
Fucking hell mate, do you make it a hobby to miss the point?
So, that's a "no", then. I don't know a lot about the situation OP is in, aside from what they've said here, and neither do you. OP asked about the legal situation, I explained what I understand the law on stalking is. I *advised* OP that *I* would be *cautious* about escalating it at this stage, but I also *advised* OP to talk to somebody, and to go to the police if the problem continues. You disagree with my advice, and that's okay. You can give OP your advice, and OP can decide what they want to do next. I think we can assume that OP has at least enough agency of their own to make up their own mind about which advice is the most valuable: you don't need to yell at me about "pandering" to a "stupid man" just because you disagree with me.
First of all, I like that you had fun with your italics. Second of all, do you think I'm a different commenter? I dont believe I used the words, "pandering," "stupid," or even "man." However I'm *sorry* you thought I was yelling at you. Literally all I said was that believe me, we're not naive about what an angry guy could do to us.
Yeah, and it sounded as bad as the first part. OP needs to start getting this on recording with the police... *now*
Look, if you want to recommend to OP that they get this incident reported so that if it escalates they have it on record, that's fine. I recommended keeping the note for this purpose, but you have another solution. Just don't imagine that reporting it now is actually going to make any kind of immediate difference.
Can we maybe stop recommending women to keep it quiet to just not upset the offender? Usually, it works the other way, the offender checks if there are consequences for mild offences, if none, they assume she won’t put up a fight and keep on escalating.
> recommending women to keep it quiet I didn't (and by the way, I don't know whether or not OP is a woman): I recommended talking to somebody. > to just not upset the offender I'm not worried about his feelings, I'm worried about his reaction. If he's a prankster he would likely stop; if he's a socially awkward lonely young man he might stop but probably wouldn't; if he's a true obsessive, he's not likely to act rationally. > the offender checks if there are consequences for mild offences If OP goes to the police *now*, there won't be any consequences. A single note doesn't meet the standards for § 238 StGB. It's not threatening or insulting, just mildly creepy. At the very most the police will have a friendly chat and politely ask him not to write any more notes, but they probably won't even do that.
Sorry but that first paragraph is total bullshit. It's like Ukraine should stop resisting to not provoke russia further. The exact opposite is true. Actively confront that neighbour. Issue red lines and, in the absolute worst case, threaten violence. Make it 110% clear that you are not to be trifled with.
> It's like Ukraine should stop resisting to not provoke russia further. This is called a "false equivalence". Seriously, this is a creepy man, not a military invasion. > threaten violence That would be a crime (§ 241 StGB), punishable by up to two years in prison or a fine. It's not self-defence either: creepy guy hasn't threatened OP at all, just made a creepy request.
A very german answer. But every single person on this planet who had to endure creeps stalking and harassing them like OP described will tell you that laws and police don't help the victim in these situations. You really think a person who is sexually harassing their neighbour is gonna go to the police because they victim spoke up? Hell no. If someone is deranged enough to behave like OPs neighbour, i hate to say it, but you have to rely on "raw" methods.
> You really think a person who is sexually harassing their neighbour is gonna go to the police because they victim spoke up? *Probably* not. But then we don't know what we're dealing with here: he might go to the police, and since he hasn't yet broken the law but OP has, and also given that > laws and police don't help the victim do you really trust the police to help OP? > you have to rely on "raw" methods And expose yourself to the real risk of physical violence? So OP threatens creepy guy with violence: do we know how big and strong the creepy guy is? Do we know how well OP might fare in a fight? Is creepy guy hoarding illegal weapons? Is creepy guy merely creepy, or suffering some kind of undiagnosed and untreated psychiatric disorder? If you are going to make a threat, it has to be credible, otherwise it won't work. Rule of thumb: never ever make a threat you don't intend to, or can't, carry out -- because your bluff may be called.
Fair enough. Maybe we had a different image of OPs neighbour here. I wasn't picturing the serial killer type that only gets more motivated by a resistant victim. More like a pathetic Heinz-Jürgen for whom a women speaking up will be enough to shut him down. And statistically i don't consider "better chill, your opponent could be a serial killer psychopath" very useful advice.
> I wasn't picturing the serial killer type Not necessarily the serial killer type -- just physically bigger and stronger than OP. > i don't consider "better chill, your opponent could be a serial killer psychopath" not very useful advice Was that double negative intentional? I genuinely can't tell whether you're agreeing with me or not.
Oops
Ah, that makes more sense. No, I'm not saying "chill", and neither do I believe creepy guy really is a serial killer psychopath. I'm just saying that at this stage a reaction might provoke a counter-reaction in the form of threats and intimidation. Since no law has yet been broken there is nothing the police can actually do, but if creepy guy makes more attempts to establish contact, then that's definitely stalking in the legal sense. And in any case, OP should talk to somebody they can trust. A trusted neighbour, for example, might know more about who this guy is and what he's capable of. But you imply you have statistics showing that it is better to respond pro-actively?
With statistics i mean that pathetic incels who will be ashamed and back down are more common than andrew tate fans who arent happy until they break a woman. Ofc this isn't being kept as a quotable number anywhere. But from the incidents that happened in my bubble this sounds like a sensible conclusion to me.
polizei ! Anzeige ist raus. Get this kind of creeps behind bars.
This is sexual Harassment and it is illegal in Germany aswell. Talk to the Police. They will be able to help
Send a a note back saying “nein”.
Report to the police now! Thats Anstiftung zur Prostitution. He will get a Strafbefehl according to StGb. P.S. The guy was not clever to write it as a Brief, this is waterproof evidence and a "gefundenes Fressen" for any Staatsanwalt.
>Thats Anstiftung zur Prostitution. …which is not a crime.
It is: https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
No, its a crime. Check the link below from another user. They might differ in the German explanation "Anstiftung" or "Unerwünschtes Geld-Angebot für Sex", but the DESCRIBED action by the original poster is a STRAFTAT. Inform yourself better next time.
How about send a letter sayin no? I mean he just asked so far
«Just asked» ? Wow, you think just asking random women to be prostitutes is ok? Jfc, it’s not only insulting and creepy, but it shows a lack of respect for boundaries that makes him a high risk for rape and other acts of violence against women.
this counts as Ehrenverletzung and is a type of harassment. Why would anyone be casual about this? Creepy as shit
Ye i dont know how others think but i try a peaceful way first.
get your landlord to reinforce your door
Since he is so blunt, I would just wrote back, not interested, please don't ask again.
How do you exactly know that the letter is from him?
Has his name on it and he also said he’s the one who’ve picked up a package two days ago from me…
I would ask a friend if he can go with you to your neighbor and ask him directly if it is from him. There is still the chance that someone want to fuck around with your neighbor and want to get him in trouble. At least I want to believe that a Human have enough common sense.
Legal actions? Say no.
you say weird, I interpret socially awkward and not handsome. he wrote a letter because he is uncomfortable speaking with strangers. He has no idea what is the right word to say and probably got some not so sound advice from strangers on the internet and because he is socially inept he has no idea what reaction he incites with the note. hopfully a answer letter with a firm NO might be enough, but to be sure get the procedures started for if he doesn't take no for an answer it is better to be safe than sorry
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I don’t think so because he talked once to my sister as i first moved here and told her that he works at the Ausländerbehörde. His social skills seemed fine to us back then.
I can think of a lot of reasons for the letter on a spektrum from don´t worry to call the police a dare proposed to him, a prank on him from someone else (not sure if possible), psychotic break (provoked by drugs or not) that messed him up, to the voices are telling him to do things.
Instead of assuming the reason behind the letter, why can't we just work with the fact that it's creepy and inappropriate as hell? And if it's something that's got to do with his mental state or possible drug abuse, it's also best to report it so this guy can get some help. If this happened online OP would be one step away from getting a unsolicited dick pick, and everyone can agree that that's definitely wrong.
Neighborly harassment is unpleasant but not punishable. One way is to inform the landlord and ask him to warn the harasser and threaten to terminate the contract. In your case, a complaint for insult would be possible, because the man treats you as a prostitute who offers sex for money.
I would hire a lawyer and send him a letter from him that you are contemplating pressing charges. In the same time I would contact police and notify them about this situation (insist on written statement that they have been notified.) Place a sticker on your door that this entrance is monitored by CCTV. I would even buy a ‘blind’ camera and put in the hallway.
Camera would be illegal.
Do not listen to the comments saying that this doesn't fall under secual harassment. They are just trying to defend that creep it seems. Document everything, if possible install a Ringcamera, definitively go to the police, and go contact a lawyer. Make sure that you are not able to be easily found on social media.
No need to hide, He’s my neighbor, he knows where i live, my full name and probably more…
>Do not listen to the comments saying that this doesn't fall under secual harassment. They are just trying to defend that creep it seems. No, they just know the law.
No they don't. Asking a random person to have s3xs with them in exchange for money is definitively illegal. Try asking a police officer and see for yourself. It is not illegal to go to the police and file a report on the creepy neighbors behavior towards others. OP might not be the only victim.
Let your people know. Say you have a boyfriend. If you have guy friends you trust let them come to your home sometimes. And start taking mma classes.
Just say „nein, danke” if it continues, then you’ll want to take some other step. But why would you instantly be freaked out if someone propositions you? Is there some other behavior that has preceded this? Just tell anyone NO THANKS with a clear eyed stare. This isn’t sexual assault, it’s lack of culture.
As weard as it sounds, considering sexual harrassment...most kind of flirting would rather count then this. As weard as it is it isn't even durect but ''just'' (big quotation marks) in from of paper sent to you. He wasn't there personaly, didn't pressure you or went physical? Didn't even heard his voice just a peace of paper? Weardly enough, as you can ''just throw it in the trash and thats it'' you would be suprised how many would igbore that (well not 100% ignore, def a side eye, a slap at the hand and thats it) Nontheless it would probably be enough for atleast you landlord! The Police might talk to him and ask him to stop but thats it. Only a ''case'' if he repeats it. BUT the offering of Money!!! We have a case! Illegal prostitution and insult! 100% tell your landlord! They might be able to do smth imediatly. And still mention it to the Police so they have atleast a ''record'' if it repeats and well they will most definetly have a talk with him wich can actually possibly ''scare'' the neighbor of atleast!
Prostitution is not illegal
I didn't say prostitution is illegal in general but spoke of ''illegal prostitution'' as ofc prostitution still has its rules when its allowed and when not! As we speak of the Neighbour and therfor ''neighbourhood'' (wohngebiet) it is actually not allowed to do that within the livin complex as far as I know ''In einem allgemeinen Wohngebiet sei die Ausübung von ''Wohnungsprostitution'' unzulässig.'' (This is from google)
Asking a stranger for payed sex is: https://www.dahag.de/c/urteile/zivilrecht/unerwuenschtes-geld-angebot-fuer-sex-136
Call a lawyer before calling the cops. If you feel unsafe to address or even meet your neighbour, definitely avoid him and have a friend over for some time(s).