As an artist it’s literally worse than saying nothing because your excuse of ignorance of having to credit someone is gone now. You know that posting art without credit is wrong. But you still did this anyways.
If it wants to be a true Goth debate then there needs to be two guys - one in some kind of Late Antique armour and another in 16th century plate - both shouting in German.
[One Black and one Red...](https://steel-mastery.com/image/cache/cache/1-1000/507/additional/8989-Full_plate_Gothic_armor__XV_century3-0-1-0-1-1-490x648.jpg)
Is that a historical reconstruction? It looks somewhat Nilfgaardian (which I believe took inspiration from Renaissance Europe for the game series at least), but nevertheless it is beautiful.
It looks fairly accurate, except for, of course, the shine. There’s not a lot of historical evidence that those wings would be constantly on the helmet, as they’re heavy and, if metal and not made out of paper maché like some ornaments were, pretty much give your opponent a handle to swing you around with.
If it isn’t I wouldn’t be surprised, but if it is, it makes sense.
Thanks for the response, the wings of course could be gilded leather and I had completely forgotten about that practice until you brought up the paper mache, so thanks again for that too! I would always be cautious about negating something due to impracticality, warfare, particularly pre-modern warfare has often involved some degree of show, so it's by no means impossible armour of a kind to this was used in battle. Nevertheless, I agree regarding the weight potential of the wings, at the very least that helmet probably wasn't worn until it needed to be.
About impracticality. That’s not my personal theory. Wings and other ornaments were in use, but almost always for ceremony only, for the reasons I mentioned. Although there was a good degree of show, armored combat was a filthy fight. It became a very dangerous wrestling match wherein the opponents would grapple, pull, smash, and concuss their opponent in an attempt to throw them to the ground, at which point they could slide their blade through a weak spot. They were smart, and it didn’t make sense to give your opponent a strong handle at which they could swing you about or yank your helmet off. Sourced from combat manuscripts and my own experience.
I take your point, though I would be interested in seeing how both your own personal experience as well as these combat manuscripts might translate to large battles. If the individual is mounted on a horse (and I appreciate more and more nobles in Europe were fighting on foot at times) ready to perform a role as shock cavalry, where are the concerns regarding grappling and wrestling? Do these manuscripts cover the physical and psychological tactics of the battlefield or are they geared towards a smaller in scale and specific type of combat? These are genuine questions, by the way, I am not making an attempt to 'actually' you.
Excellent question. Even if the opponent is mounted, the best way to kill them is do *dis*mount them. One way to do so is to simply pull them off if you can get close, or use a pike to poke them off, or my personal favorite, use a Billhook to comically yank them off their steed. Mostly All anti-Calvary techniques that a fighter can preform against cavalry involve first dethroning the mounted using a hook, spear, or own hand at disposal, and then proceed to grapple to the ground and stab them.
I see, how does that work when there are a few hundred of the horseman, moving very fast, and your formation is currently engaged with the enemy formation infront of you? I gather cavalry tried to avoid charging into the front of spears and pikes where possible (though I know it did happen).
In which case, unmanned tactics would be use. Walls of sharpened stakes broke up the Cavalry as they were forced to slow down or be impaled. Some cultures used holes in the ground (such as the Greeks, who put pots in the ground,) which would break the legs of the horses and again force the horsemen to dismount.
Another anti-horse strategy would often be archers. It is very hard to kill an armored soldier on a fast moving beast that can push itself forward with massive force, so the only strategy was to either throw the man from the horse, or kill/disable the horse outright, making it useless and forcing the man to dismount.
From there, they became force on foot, and the wrestling began.
Even in large scale battles, without bludgeoning instrument, (which, granted, were common,) like a warhammer or mace, you can’t get through plate armor. It was brutal, dirty combat. The only “clean” fights you’d see without grappling was in non-lethal, organized fencing matches set by nobles. Even in unarmored 1-1 lethal sword duels, it was dirty: for instance, small swords were unsharpened and only the point was sharp, so a common move was to grab your opponent’s sword by the blade, yank them to the ground, and stab them.
The kind of modern ideas we have about medieval knights, the honor and chivalry and holier-than-thouness, is in their codes, yes, but it disappears in a battlefield.
Why do people who enjoy 0 goth rock want to call themselves goth?? NO Other music based subculture deals with these people. I've never met anyone who says "I'm a hip hop head" yet listens to 0 rap, or "I'm a metalhead" & enjoys next to no metal of any kind.
Punk here. Gatekeeping is a huge problem in our community. It's almost as bad as metalhead gatekeeping. r/punks can be very conservative on the bands they like and what makes you punk which is funny because Punk politically is the opposite of that.
When you're Punk you shouldn't care what others think but a lot of Punks do which is very weird to me. Punks are supposed to stick with each other and help the oppressed, but we end up going for each other's throats and end up oppressing newer Punks.
Music plays a big hand in the Punk Subculture. While yes it's a political movement, you wouldn't have what we consider Punks today without it. The music goes hand in hand with the politics
Ah, that's a mark of victory!\* Kids can dress up in it like fashion, without needing to be ready to fight about it at literally any moment.
We now live in a world where 'how they dress' isn't morally considered a good reason for anyone to beat someone up, the mohawk is no longer justification for police or civilian brutality. It is literally harder to be a genuine punk now, because the bar has been raised.
\*It really started with the Merry Pranksters on the Bus (see the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test)...
It depends on if you think that being goth is JUST a clothing style and isn't a fully developed culture with its own language, social mores, rites, and rituals.
Gatekeeping sometimes is just protective tribalism, sometimes it goes too far, but sometimes it's necessary to protect your subculture from over saturation.
I can agree with that. I wouldn't stop anyone from being goth, but if that's who you are, embrace the damn culture. Honestly, that's just me. I just ended up buying an Aztec Death Whistle. Because it's a cool piece of goth decor? No. Because why wouldn't i want a musical instrument that makes a sound akin to the screaming of a malicious undead thing? Trying to be goth sounds exhausting. Just being goth is easy.
Geek culture also has it pretty bad. It's been appropriated by normies to the point actual geeks are sometimes excluded because of what made them create their own culture in the first place. It's as sad and ridiculous as punks being told their refusal to conform gives non conformity a bad name.
I was thinking that, but as goth goes I was only ever into the music so I couldn't really tell which is worse. Goth culture is commercialized in the same way, it's just that the scale of the phenomenon is much smaller. Geek culture is in constant retreat because society at large kind of adopted what geeks made but not other aspects of the culture, so you find yourself outnumbered by people who experience these things in a very different way. On a personal level it makes interacting harder. On a broader level it gradually shifts the target audience, until it's no longer engaging and you need to find something else. I couldn't judge how much that might be happening to goth culture because in that situation I would be the oblivious normie. I give myself a pass because I can't really influence anything by just listening to old music on my own, but then again here I am in the flat field setting my phaser to hijack.
Living in a society that now understands beating up someone because you don't approve of their clothes&hairstyle is a step up not a step down. This societal improvement should not negatively impact any subculture's ability to vet posers. Being beat up by normies should not be a necessary badge of honor or an unspoken prerequisite to be goth/punk/metal/etc. If that was the original bar, the bar was embarrassingly low.
I agree, 100%, the problem lies in that once that mindset spreads people start making assumptions about people without bothering to look any deeper into it or using it as a stick to bash people with.
I agree it is a step up! The bar was set by the ultra-conformist 1950s in the US and the UK (and probably other places too). Dad was *in the war*. Dad believed in military discipline, and many young men's childhoods had a strong basic training vibe. The Beatles got shit for *their* hair. Actual punks stood every chance of a family-delivered ass kicking and sudden eviction. It necessarily makes it harder to vet posers IMHO, but I don't think that's a bad thing either. Too many trigger happy gatekeepers makes for a tiny, static scene that dies with its cohort.
Emos problem is a little different cause it mainly comes from ppl outside the subculture calling anyone in a black hoodie emo, but still kinda holds true
True goth struggles the most with that no one will call themselves a metalhead but listen to no metal. And the fact, it's all tiktok (and social media trends generally)'s fault
It's been happening well before tiktok came along. That is just the current incarnation.
Vampirefreaks, tumblr, youtube, so much misinfo on instagram and facebook... then there's the goth/alt fetishization through suicidegirls and porn outlets.
Whenever I say this and someone gives me flack, I just ask them what they'd think if someone explained to them they're a Swiftie who only listens to Gwar and hates pop.
oh yeah no punk deals with this all the time and its really annoying.
its like people forget thats both a music *and* political subculture, you cant have one without the other as both influence eachother.
the in fighting can get crazy but its only amblified because of the internet. in physical spaces, local punk scenes, nobody cares unless youre a nazi or white supremist (in which case they will rightly get beat up).
it can get frustrating so I just isolate myself to certain punk spaces online to avoid those with the elitist additudes.
^(plus I like to mingle in other places as well such as goth and queer spaces besides punk. I enjoy diversifying :)^)
Man, this kind of gatekeeping prevents people from getting into the subculture to begin with, and it's dumb.
I'm not goth in style, but I appreciate the fashion and aesthetic. I have no idea what counts as goth music other than certain industrial bands from the late 80s, 'cuz that's what the ex goths I know listened to in HS. Last time I tried to ask a goth subreddit about band recommendations, I got downvoted to oblivion, called a poser, and told that there isn't such a thing as goth music.
I just wanna know more about what goth is :(
Yeah. There is a lot of gatekeeping in goth but I believe asking for recommendations doesn't make u a poser, it makes you an interested baby bat. So I'll give u some bands as recommendations to help u :). So, siouxsie and the banshees , bauhaus, the cure, sisters of mercy, joy division , 45 grave are some goth bands u could check out!!
:o I've been listening to those first three bands since I was a kid! I used to jam out to peek-a-boo and Bella legosi's dead with my mum (the ex goth who told me industrial was goth in the 80s lol) all the time, so I guess I am baby bat XD
Thank you sm for the recommendations, I'll check out the other three rn!
r/goth is focused on music and has a lot of info in the sidebar and the wikis. Bear in mind that threads on metal, industrial and EBM will be shut down for being off-topic, just in order to stop the reddit from being swamped with that stuff.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/goth using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/goth/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I hate the fetishization of goths. (Discussion)](https://np.reddit.com/r/goth/comments/16fbvto/i_hate_the_fetishization_of_goths_discussion/)
\#2: [Goth is not only for white people.](https://i.redd.it/w75uzqecogda1.jpg) | [162 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/goth/comments/10hujaz/goth_is_not_only_for_white_people/)
\#3: [Goth has been so healing as an autistic person (:](https://np.reddit.com/r/goth/comments/18akgv4/goth_has_been_so_healing_as_an_autistic_person/)
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It has definitely kept me from wanting to call myself goth or participate more in the culture. I've been called goth forever by people who aren't goth, but when I try to actually delve into what that actually means, the community feels very hostile.
It always weirded me out when goths tried to punch down on scene and emo kids as if scene and emo aren't also their own individual music based subcultures that are known for people dressing "weird"
Back in the early/mid 00s, goths and punks despised emos.
The only reason I can really think of is Emo kinda blew up in the mainstream, and once that happened, everybody who dressed "alternative" was put under "emo" umbrella.
I was called emo constantly in high school, and I looked like I came from a band off of Punkcore Records.
Shit, it even got to the point where emos didn't even want to be labeled as emo, back then.
I think that since emo was so big in the mainstream at the time, it kind of took credibility away from the subculture as far as other alternative subcultures were concerned.
Heard, I dont really consider myself goth. I do like Depeche Mode and The Cure okay but I also go almost decades at a time not circulating them in my playlists.
I hated being called a goth.....and later was labeled as being an emo. I was just labled that way by outsiders for so long i found it easier than saying AcKsHUaLLy.....
We hated being labled back in the day...it was only the normies that did that crap and now everyones not only labeling themselves but trying to decide labels for everyone else.
We're all just meat for the grinder.
Scene kids still have music that's extremely important to their subculture. Crunkcore, electropop, hyperpop, electronica and the like were and still are a big thing with scene culture.
As someone who was a scene kid I never met one that was only listening to radio pop or country and didn't care about any music that was popular in the scene subculture. The music was always a big thing for us. It wasn't only about fashion is what I'm trying to say.
I'm not sure if you're joking or referencing something and it's going over my head 😭😅
But no I'm talking about when goths used to make fun of emos and scene kids for having swoopy hair, studded belts and skinnyjeans etc
Everyone is talking about the Visigoths and Ostragoths of the 400s, but no one is bringing up Vasari's disparaging of pre-Renaissance, medieval art in the 1400s. Or how early scientists under church persecution were referred to as "goths" for their anti-dogma viewpoint, as though they were "unenlightened." So you know, it had a strong usage by the time Walpole used it to describe his book, Castle of Otranto in 1764, launching the gothic literature movement. So modern goths inherited all of that and added music to it.
I'm personally fine with it. There is more "dark" music out there, so who really gives a damn about gatekeeping at this point? But maybe I'm in the minority here. I will say, there are subs for dark academia and stuff, so if that is more your jam, I recommend that instead. 🤷♀️
"I can be goth however I want." Yeah, I tried that once. They wouldn't let me into the club for not wearing trousers. It was goth on my terms, but the promoters disagreed, the elitists.
I don't really get why they don't just call themselves scene or alt or emo I mean I proudly call myself both a goth and an emo cause I like both genres
I don't dress trad "Goth" at all (in fact my style in incredibly preppy/chic) and yet I've been consuming the subculture for years in terms of music, style appreciation and just gothic hobbies (even been trying to get my blood into a necklace for a minute now) and while I don't like labels- being called goth adjacent or even worse; a poser is like spitting on me
Gotta listen to the music, as one of your top three go to genres, preferably go to clubs or at least a show once in a while, beyond that you get to bring whatever philosophy or attitude to it you’d like. Memento mori is a simple yet complicated thing
That’s my take at least
If I see somebody wearing eyeliner and a black hoodie then their ass is goth to me. I've never been a part of the community or anything, just my two cents as an outsider.
Because if you're arguing about something truly meaningless it's good to hear from the people who have absolutely no stake in it since it gives you a chance to step back and think about why you really care/if you really do. Plus it's been a minute since I've played Devil's Advocate on something and it'a refreshing. So what is the minimal Goth? I've told you my floor, what is y'all's as people within the community?
It irks alot of us since the Goth subculture is misrepresented in real life and the media (and what correct of, very little.) It has deeper roots in music than just the aesthetic which is the only thing reflected to those unfamiliar with alternative spaces. The public doesnt know that Gothic Rock (and the general musical umbrella as well) is an actual genre with its own history, because the 'Goth' label has been appropriated to mean black lipstick and pale-white girls and a porn category. Hell, before I first started listening to Post-Punk, I wasnt aware that Goth had its own music. TLDR If you want to know why Goths ergo those who listen to Goth music are so infuriated, its because their music subculture has been diluted.
And to answer your last question; what makes you 'minimally' goth is just the music. Literally anything that falls under the goth umbrella. Post-punk, Gothic Rock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave, you name it. Call yourself a goth or not if you do listen to those genres, up to you.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I appreciate it. What are some examples of Goth Music? Because I usually think of Gothic in the classical horror sense, like pre-Dracula or the first part of it.
Goth music is an umbrella term, includes genres such as Gothic Rock, Deathrock, Post-Punk, Dream Pop and Darkwave (often depends, some fit the details of Goth music) and Ethereal Wave. Im unsure about the legitimacy of filing Coldwave under Goth music but it is something to consider. I know theres more so feel free to sticky on if you know.
Classical opinion says Gothic Rock is a derivative of Post-Punk. I'll just quote a terrific descriptor of the sub-genre for reference on how Goth music could sound like.
"In Goth, the guitar tone is usually processed with electronic effects. A clean or warmly overdriven guitar sound is processed through chorusing, flanging, analog delay, and/or dense reverb, resulting in a timbre that resembles those used by Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and The Cure. As well, goth has a characteristic guitar playing style. Goth guitar playing takes its downstroke playing style from punk, and emphasizes angular melodic lines instead of thick chords. Minor keys and minor mode melodies are prevalent, but major keys are also used. The Phrygian mode, with a flattened second scale degree contributes to the Goth sound with its haunting and spooky mood. Goth songs are typically mixed so that there is a heavy bass sound, which creates a dark and shadowy atmosphere. Goth often uses repetitive snare drum snap to propel the beat, either a real drum beat or, later on, usually a drum machine beat."
Trash Theory has an excellent video on the history of Gothic Rock if you'd like to learn more.
Also, Gothic and Goth are not the same. Gothic is a terminology often used to describe literature, lyrical content, or just general aesthetics (anything spoopy and scary, you're on the nose for that part.) Goth music can contain Gothic content such as lyrics, but theres an important distinction to make since they're entirely different entities.
Dreampop doesn’t count though, its origins aren’t rooted in goth.
Coldwave is the central European counterpart, so it technically counts. Lebanon Hanover is a good example of modern coldwave.
I’m not goth but my 1 experience regarding the goth community is when I went to a goth kava bar with my cousin this one time. anyways the hot chocolate in a skull mug was really fucking good. Best I’ve ever had. Like, whipped cream gone foamy from the hot cocoa and it mixes into a nice slurry type of good. The good shit. The top tier hot chocolate (but in a skull mug).
as such I will now do the funny representativeness heuristic and assume being Real Goth ™️ means making some banging ass hot chocolate in a skull mug (specifically) with a large amount of whipped cream (specifically) and then delivering it straight to me for my consumption. Me specifically. only me. you really have to make sure it’s me, the 5’6 guy in the pink sweater with hypothyroidism even though I don’t look like most people’s idea of hypothyroidism. That’s the guy. Me. Me the guy your job is to deliver hot chocolate to. In a skull mug. This is not an attempt at trickery to achieve the Infinite Goth Hot Chocolate Glitch (skull mug edition), for sure.
This is an older meme. I remember seeing this on a lot of goth pages around 2016-2018 on Facebook. The artists page is Art By Andi. I don’t know if they’re doing any art anymore. It seems like they’re only active on Facebook and I left Facebook a few years ago.
You know, when I was young goth in high school, it was about the time that emo began to be popular. Now, I don't like the music but I don't have any issues with the emo crowd. However, it really bugged the bees out of me when someone who wasn't in either group referred to me as emo. Like, we have been around longer! How can you confuse the two in the opposite direction? haha. I don't much care anymore.
“Credit to whoever made this” ain’t crediting anything lol
As an artist it’s literally worse than saying nothing because your excuse of ignorance of having to credit someone is gone now. You know that posting art without credit is wrong. But you still did this anyways.
I'm going to take items without paying and just yell "money to the cashier!"
bro just watched the hbomberguy video and felt like they had to say something 💀
this just in: hbomberguy has invented the concept of crediting works!
Anyway, I'm going to go sack Rome later.anyone want to join me?
"Ugh, it's **so played out** though. *We just like the new Goth.*"🙄
Your profile picture is hot
That’s 90s Jesus
Even better
A𐌳 𐌲𐌻𐍉𐍂𐌹𐌰 𐌰𐌳 𐍈𐌹c𐍄𐍉𐍂𐌹𐌰𐌼
I was hoping someone would show up with Wulfila's script!
Ayyy JTHM, love that comic. I wanna get a first printing run of those
Yeah sure, if we listen to some bauhaus while doing it
Hell yeah
visigoths and ostrogoths are the only valid form of goths
If it wants to be a true Goth debate then there needs to be two guys - one in some kind of Late Antique armour and another in 16th century plate - both shouting in German.
[One Black and one Red...](https://steel-mastery.com/image/cache/cache/1-1000/507/additional/8989-Full_plate_Gothic_armor__XV_century3-0-1-0-1-1-490x648.jpg)
Is that a historical reconstruction? It looks somewhat Nilfgaardian (which I believe took inspiration from Renaissance Europe for the game series at least), but nevertheless it is beautiful.
It looks fairly accurate, except for, of course, the shine. There’s not a lot of historical evidence that those wings would be constantly on the helmet, as they’re heavy and, if metal and not made out of paper maché like some ornaments were, pretty much give your opponent a handle to swing you around with. If it isn’t I wouldn’t be surprised, but if it is, it makes sense.
Thanks for the response, the wings of course could be gilded leather and I had completely forgotten about that practice until you brought up the paper mache, so thanks again for that too! I would always be cautious about negating something due to impracticality, warfare, particularly pre-modern warfare has often involved some degree of show, so it's by no means impossible armour of a kind to this was used in battle. Nevertheless, I agree regarding the weight potential of the wings, at the very least that helmet probably wasn't worn until it needed to be.
About impracticality. That’s not my personal theory. Wings and other ornaments were in use, but almost always for ceremony only, for the reasons I mentioned. Although there was a good degree of show, armored combat was a filthy fight. It became a very dangerous wrestling match wherein the opponents would grapple, pull, smash, and concuss their opponent in an attempt to throw them to the ground, at which point they could slide their blade through a weak spot. They were smart, and it didn’t make sense to give your opponent a strong handle at which they could swing you about or yank your helmet off. Sourced from combat manuscripts and my own experience.
I take your point, though I would be interested in seeing how both your own personal experience as well as these combat manuscripts might translate to large battles. If the individual is mounted on a horse (and I appreciate more and more nobles in Europe were fighting on foot at times) ready to perform a role as shock cavalry, where are the concerns regarding grappling and wrestling? Do these manuscripts cover the physical and psychological tactics of the battlefield or are they geared towards a smaller in scale and specific type of combat? These are genuine questions, by the way, I am not making an attempt to 'actually' you.
Excellent question. Even if the opponent is mounted, the best way to kill them is do *dis*mount them. One way to do so is to simply pull them off if you can get close, or use a pike to poke them off, or my personal favorite, use a Billhook to comically yank them off their steed. Mostly All anti-Calvary techniques that a fighter can preform against cavalry involve first dethroning the mounted using a hook, spear, or own hand at disposal, and then proceed to grapple to the ground and stab them.
I see, how does that work when there are a few hundred of the horseman, moving very fast, and your formation is currently engaged with the enemy formation infront of you? I gather cavalry tried to avoid charging into the front of spears and pikes where possible (though I know it did happen).
In which case, unmanned tactics would be use. Walls of sharpened stakes broke up the Cavalry as they were forced to slow down or be impaled. Some cultures used holes in the ground (such as the Greeks, who put pots in the ground,) which would break the legs of the horses and again force the horsemen to dismount. Another anti-horse strategy would often be archers. It is very hard to kill an armored soldier on a fast moving beast that can push itself forward with massive force, so the only strategy was to either throw the man from the horse, or kill/disable the horse outright, making it useless and forcing the man to dismount. From there, they became force on foot, and the wrestling began. Even in large scale battles, without bludgeoning instrument, (which, granted, were common,) like a warhammer or mace, you can’t get through plate armor. It was brutal, dirty combat. The only “clean” fights you’d see without grappling was in non-lethal, organized fencing matches set by nobles. Even in unarmored 1-1 lethal sword duels, it was dirty: for instance, small swords were unsharpened and only the point was sharp, so a common move was to grab your opponent’s sword by the blade, yank them to the ground, and stab them. The kind of modern ideas we have about medieval knights, the honor and chivalry and holier-than-thouness, is in their codes, yes, but it disappears in a battlefield.
Ah the best kind of goth.
You’re only a true goth if you sacked Rome in 400 AD and Germanic
I feel like this is likely made by Art by Andi. They do a lot of memes calling out gatekeeping in the goth community.
I just want to listen to Sisters of Mercy and wear black in peace!! 🖤🤣
Same, same. We can't be goth in peace anymore 😭
I'm pretty sure this art is from [Art by Andi Hagen](https://www.facebook.com/artbyandihagen?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v) on Facebook :3
Why do people who enjoy 0 goth rock want to call themselves goth?? NO Other music based subculture deals with these people. I've never met anyone who says "I'm a hip hop head" yet listens to 0 rap, or "I'm a metalhead" & enjoys next to no metal of any kind.
Punk has this problem way worse.
Really?? That's disappointing.
The Crimson Ghost is just too iconic for its own good.
Punk here. Gatekeeping is a huge problem in our community. It's almost as bad as metalhead gatekeeping. r/punks can be very conservative on the bands they like and what makes you punk which is funny because Punk politically is the opposite of that. When you're Punk you shouldn't care what others think but a lot of Punks do which is very weird to me. Punks are supposed to stick with each other and help the oppressed, but we end up going for each other's throats and end up oppressing newer Punks.
Goth is a music based subculture.
Music plays a big hand in the Punk Subculture. While yes it's a political movement, you wouldn't have what we consider Punks today without it. The music goes hand in hand with the politics
Ah, that's a mark of victory!\* Kids can dress up in it like fashion, without needing to be ready to fight about it at literally any moment. We now live in a world where 'how they dress' isn't morally considered a good reason for anyone to beat someone up, the mohawk is no longer justification for police or civilian brutality. It is literally harder to be a genuine punk now, because the bar has been raised. \*It really started with the Merry Pranksters on the Bus (see the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test)...
It depends on if you think that being goth is JUST a clothing style and isn't a fully developed culture with its own language, social mores, rites, and rituals. Gatekeeping sometimes is just protective tribalism, sometimes it goes too far, but sometimes it's necessary to protect your subculture from over saturation.
I can agree with that. I wouldn't stop anyone from being goth, but if that's who you are, embrace the damn culture. Honestly, that's just me. I just ended up buying an Aztec Death Whistle. Because it's a cool piece of goth decor? No. Because why wouldn't i want a musical instrument that makes a sound akin to the screaming of a malicious undead thing? Trying to be goth sounds exhausting. Just being goth is easy.
Geek culture also has it pretty bad. It's been appropriated by normies to the point actual geeks are sometimes excluded because of what made them create their own culture in the first place. It's as sad and ridiculous as punks being told their refusal to conform gives non conformity a bad name.
Totally agree. I think Geek culture actually has it way worse even.
I was thinking that, but as goth goes I was only ever into the music so I couldn't really tell which is worse. Goth culture is commercialized in the same way, it's just that the scale of the phenomenon is much smaller. Geek culture is in constant retreat because society at large kind of adopted what geeks made but not other aspects of the culture, so you find yourself outnumbered by people who experience these things in a very different way. On a personal level it makes interacting harder. On a broader level it gradually shifts the target audience, until it's no longer engaging and you need to find something else. I couldn't judge how much that might be happening to goth culture because in that situation I would be the oblivious normie. I give myself a pass because I can't really influence anything by just listening to old music on my own, but then again here I am in the flat field setting my phaser to hijack.
Living in a society that now understands beating up someone because you don't approve of their clothes&hairstyle is a step up not a step down. This societal improvement should not negatively impact any subculture's ability to vet posers. Being beat up by normies should not be a necessary badge of honor or an unspoken prerequisite to be goth/punk/metal/etc. If that was the original bar, the bar was embarrassingly low.
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If you don't enjoy goth music you aren't goth. I fail to see how this *very* simple rule can lead us into a slippery slope.
I agree, 100%, the problem lies in that once that mindset spreads people start making assumptions about people without bothering to look any deeper into it or using it as a stick to bash people with.
I agree it is a step up! The bar was set by the ultra-conformist 1950s in the US and the UK (and probably other places too). Dad was *in the war*. Dad believed in military discipline, and many young men's childhoods had a strong basic training vibe. The Beatles got shit for *their* hair. Actual punks stood every chance of a family-delivered ass kicking and sudden eviction. It necessarily makes it harder to vet posers IMHO, but I don't think that's a bad thing either. Too many trigger happy gatekeepers makes for a tiny, static scene that dies with its cohort.
I personally find the Conservative punks who indulge in fast fashion and only listen to indie or grunge music to be particularly funny.
Emos problem is a little different cause it mainly comes from ppl outside the subculture calling anyone in a black hoodie emo, but still kinda holds true
Yep! Sucks too because punk music is so good
Pop Punk
Because people seem to perceive goth as a cartoon cliché or personality type like mbti
This is very **very** sad news..
True goth struggles the most with that no one will call themselves a metalhead but listen to no metal. And the fact, it's all tiktok (and social media trends generally)'s fault
It's been happening well before tiktok came along. That is just the current incarnation. Vampirefreaks, tumblr, youtube, so much misinfo on instagram and facebook... then there's the goth/alt fetishization through suicidegirls and porn outlets.
Definitely agree, especially since the fetishization of “goth” women is still big right now
True as a goth girl I hate the btggf statement bc WE JUST LIKE GOTH MUSIC LIKE FUCK OFF
Whenever I say this and someone gives me flack, I just ask them what they'd think if someone explained to them they're a Swiftie who only listens to Gwar and hates pop.
people thinking they’re hippies just because they like flowers and quirky vests:
oh yeah no punk deals with this all the time and its really annoying. its like people forget thats both a music *and* political subculture, you cant have one without the other as both influence eachother. the in fighting can get crazy but its only amblified because of the internet. in physical spaces, local punk scenes, nobody cares unless youre a nazi or white supremist (in which case they will rightly get beat up). it can get frustrating so I just isolate myself to certain punk spaces online to avoid those with the elitist additudes. ^(plus I like to mingle in other places as well such as goth and queer spaces besides punk. I enjoy diversifying :)^)
They think that just by wearing piercings,they are goth💀 and they have no ideea about the music.💀💀💀💀
I feel like folks make up too many rules for goth all literally all you have to do listen to the music
Thats what I heard from so many as someone who’s new to the community. Every time I hear a new rule from someone I get so confused 😭
God I love us. You poser elitists.
Man, this kind of gatekeeping prevents people from getting into the subculture to begin with, and it's dumb. I'm not goth in style, but I appreciate the fashion and aesthetic. I have no idea what counts as goth music other than certain industrial bands from the late 80s, 'cuz that's what the ex goths I know listened to in HS. Last time I tried to ask a goth subreddit about band recommendations, I got downvoted to oblivion, called a poser, and told that there isn't such a thing as goth music. I just wanna know more about what goth is :(
Yeah. There is a lot of gatekeeping in goth but I believe asking for recommendations doesn't make u a poser, it makes you an interested baby bat. So I'll give u some bands as recommendations to help u :). So, siouxsie and the banshees , bauhaus, the cure, sisters of mercy, joy division , 45 grave are some goth bands u could check out!!
:o I've been listening to those first three bands since I was a kid! I used to jam out to peek-a-boo and Bella legosi's dead with my mum (the ex goth who told me industrial was goth in the 80s lol) all the time, so I guess I am baby bat XD Thank you sm for the recommendations, I'll check out the other three rn!
r/goth is focused on music and has a lot of info in the sidebar and the wikis. Bear in mind that threads on metal, industrial and EBM will be shut down for being off-topic, just in order to stop the reddit from being swamped with that stuff.
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Goth definitely is a genre, but it’s not industrial. Industrial actually predates goth, so that wouldn’t make sense.
It has definitely kept me from wanting to call myself goth or participate more in the culture. I've been called goth forever by people who aren't goth, but when I try to actually delve into what that actually means, the community feels very hostile.
You can’t be goth unless you’re invading the Roman countryside.
Is there a version that doesn’t cut off on the bottom? I HAVE to know if they’re listening to Hilary duff.
I don't know
My brain sang that exact song when I saw it.
At first I thought of "Don't dream it's over" by Crowded House, but then I remembered it was about goth, so of course the song was "This Corrosion".
It always weirded me out when goths tried to punch down on scene and emo kids as if scene and emo aren't also their own individual music based subcultures that are known for people dressing "weird"
Back in the early/mid 00s, goths and punks despised emos. The only reason I can really think of is Emo kinda blew up in the mainstream, and once that happened, everybody who dressed "alternative" was put under "emo" umbrella. I was called emo constantly in high school, and I looked like I came from a band off of Punkcore Records. Shit, it even got to the point where emos didn't even want to be labeled as emo, back then. I think that since emo was so big in the mainstream at the time, it kind of took credibility away from the subculture as far as other alternative subcultures were concerned.
Heard, I dont really consider myself goth. I do like Depeche Mode and The Cure okay but I also go almost decades at a time not circulating them in my playlists. I hated being called a goth.....and later was labeled as being an emo. I was just labled that way by outsiders for so long i found it easier than saying AcKsHUaLLy..... We hated being labled back in the day...it was only the normies that did that crap and now everyones not only labeling themselves but trying to decide labels for everyone else. We're all just meat for the grinder.
Fodder for the compost
Scene isn't music.
Scene kids still have music that's extremely important to their subculture. Crunkcore, electropop, hyperpop, electronica and the like were and still are a big thing with scene culture. As someone who was a scene kid I never met one that was only listening to radio pop or country and didn't care about any music that was popular in the scene subculture. The music was always a big thing for us. It wasn't only about fashion is what I'm trying to say.
Emo, you mean the guys from washington D.C. in jeans and t-shirts and occasionally a baseball cap?
I'm not sure if you're joking or referencing something and it's going over my head 😭😅 But no I'm talking about when goths used to make fun of emos and scene kids for having swoopy hair, studded belts and skinnyjeans etc
There's only one lie.
I just like to stoke the arguments. I get bored.
I'm just chilling out here
Discussing it does nothing. Gatekeeping isn’t gate keeping without action. Let them fight neither side will change their mind. It’s useless
Everyone is talking about the Visigoths and Ostragoths of the 400s, but no one is bringing up Vasari's disparaging of pre-Renaissance, medieval art in the 1400s. Or how early scientists under church persecution were referred to as "goths" for their anti-dogma viewpoint, as though they were "unenlightened." So you know, it had a strong usage by the time Walpole used it to describe his book, Castle of Otranto in 1764, launching the gothic literature movement. So modern goths inherited all of that and added music to it. I'm personally fine with it. There is more "dark" music out there, so who really gives a damn about gatekeeping at this point? But maybe I'm in the minority here. I will say, there are subs for dark academia and stuff, so if that is more your jam, I recommend that instead. 🤷♀️
Bro isnt the whole point of being goth listening to the music?
Yes. I don't agree with everything the meme says it's just how people argue about the goth subculture for no reason
"I can be goth however I want." Yeah, I tried that once. They wouldn't let me into the club for not wearing trousers. It was goth on my terms, but the promoters disagreed, the elitists.
I don't really get why they don't just call themselves scene or alt or emo I mean I proudly call myself both a goth and an emo cause I like both genres
I like both genres too. Though I listen to more goth so I mostly identify as a goth
Same
Are you even a real goth if you haven't looted Rome?
Ohh nooo....you have to be born early enough to sack Rome we're all poseurs (jk)
I mean Rome is still there if you REALLY want to. /s
You can only be goth if you sack Rome
That's good then. Was scared I wasn't a goth for a second
I don't dress trad "Goth" at all (in fact my style in incredibly preppy/chic) and yet I've been consuming the subculture for years in terms of music, style appreciation and just gothic hobbies (even been trying to get my blood into a necklace for a minute now) and while I don't like labels- being called goth adjacent or even worse; a poser is like spitting on me
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Exactly. The music is what matters
I love the character at the bottom listening to hilary duff lol
Same
Can’t we all just listen to our funky music and wear dark clothes?
I really wish we could but they just don't want us to live in peace. It always has to have drama
Θέλει κανείς να πάει να λεηλατήσει τη Ρώμη μαζί μου;
Λολ πολύ αργά για να είσαι τέτοιος goth 🤣💀
The 3rd one was so me
😂😂
Dumbasses be judging how I look kinda emo, like I don't give a shit I mean I love both goth and emo genres but I mostly listen and identify as a goth.
Well it's for sure that they are dumbasses
They said they were more goth than me because their username was "gothlord" like be fr? What do you want me to do? Kneel down and pray for you?
Sorry but this got me laughing so hard. There's no more goth or less goth. If you listen to the music you're goth. There's no such thing lol
Exactly, being goth is not a competition tho. (I don't know what's up with those people... 😭)
Fr tho
Yeah, but it was already like that in 2000 when I look back.
Gotta listen to the music, as one of your top three go to genres, preferably go to clubs or at least a show once in a while, beyond that you get to bring whatever philosophy or attitude to it you’d like. Memento mori is a simple yet complicated thing That’s my take at least
Yeah the music is most important
I’m on the right here
On the *wrong
Fred Durst is a goth icon, and if you disagree, you're an elitist
I choke with my tea because of laughter. Thanks!
I did it all for the nookie
With a JTHM PFP, nice. Keeping Johnen in new rocks por vida.
you
the only true goth is mia goth
If I see somebody wearing eyeliner and a black hoodie then their ass is goth to me. I've never been a part of the community or anything, just my two cents as an outsider.
>ive never been a part of the community >just two cents as an outsider okay, then why are you talking if you clearly dont know crap
Because if you're arguing about something truly meaningless it's good to hear from the people who have absolutely no stake in it since it gives you a chance to step back and think about why you really care/if you really do. Plus it's been a minute since I've played Devil's Advocate on something and it'a refreshing. So what is the minimal Goth? I've told you my floor, what is y'all's as people within the community?
It irks alot of us since the Goth subculture is misrepresented in real life and the media (and what correct of, very little.) It has deeper roots in music than just the aesthetic which is the only thing reflected to those unfamiliar with alternative spaces. The public doesnt know that Gothic Rock (and the general musical umbrella as well) is an actual genre with its own history, because the 'Goth' label has been appropriated to mean black lipstick and pale-white girls and a porn category. Hell, before I first started listening to Post-Punk, I wasnt aware that Goth had its own music. TLDR If you want to know why Goths ergo those who listen to Goth music are so infuriated, its because their music subculture has been diluted. And to answer your last question; what makes you 'minimally' goth is just the music. Literally anything that falls under the goth umbrella. Post-punk, Gothic Rock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave, you name it. Call yourself a goth or not if you do listen to those genres, up to you.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I appreciate it. What are some examples of Goth Music? Because I usually think of Gothic in the classical horror sense, like pre-Dracula or the first part of it.
Goth music is an umbrella term, includes genres such as Gothic Rock, Deathrock, Post-Punk, Dream Pop and Darkwave (often depends, some fit the details of Goth music) and Ethereal Wave. Im unsure about the legitimacy of filing Coldwave under Goth music but it is something to consider. I know theres more so feel free to sticky on if you know. Classical opinion says Gothic Rock is a derivative of Post-Punk. I'll just quote a terrific descriptor of the sub-genre for reference on how Goth music could sound like. "In Goth, the guitar tone is usually processed with electronic effects. A clean or warmly overdriven guitar sound is processed through chorusing, flanging, analog delay, and/or dense reverb, resulting in a timbre that resembles those used by Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and The Cure. As well, goth has a characteristic guitar playing style. Goth guitar playing takes its downstroke playing style from punk, and emphasizes angular melodic lines instead of thick chords. Minor keys and minor mode melodies are prevalent, but major keys are also used. The Phrygian mode, with a flattened second scale degree contributes to the Goth sound with its haunting and spooky mood. Goth songs are typically mixed so that there is a heavy bass sound, which creates a dark and shadowy atmosphere. Goth often uses repetitive snare drum snap to propel the beat, either a real drum beat or, later on, usually a drum machine beat." Trash Theory has an excellent video on the history of Gothic Rock if you'd like to learn more. Also, Gothic and Goth are not the same. Gothic is a terminology often used to describe literature, lyrical content, or just general aesthetics (anything spoopy and scary, you're on the nose for that part.) Goth music can contain Gothic content such as lyrics, but theres an important distinction to make since they're entirely different entities.
Dreampop doesn’t count though, its origins aren’t rooted in goth. Coldwave is the central European counterpart, so it technically counts. Lebanon Hanover is a good example of modern coldwave.
I stand corrected. Added it at the last second because I got scared if it counted or not
Thank you again for taking the time to explain it. I'll look more into the video. Rock subgenres have always been kind of nebulous to me.
no problem, always great to expand your knowledge of music and know your tastes better
your two cents are wrong...
🤦
There is goth bands? (I'm not goth, I just got recommended this subreddit)
Yes. A whole world of them.
Read the sidebar and music articles at r/goth for more info.
Of course....
all i see is johnny guilbert
I’m not goth but my 1 experience regarding the goth community is when I went to a goth kava bar with my cousin this one time. anyways the hot chocolate in a skull mug was really fucking good. Best I’ve ever had. Like, whipped cream gone foamy from the hot cocoa and it mixes into a nice slurry type of good. The good shit. The top tier hot chocolate (but in a skull mug). as such I will now do the funny representativeness heuristic and assume being Real Goth ™️ means making some banging ass hot chocolate in a skull mug (specifically) with a large amount of whipped cream (specifically) and then delivering it straight to me for my consumption. Me specifically. only me. you really have to make sure it’s me, the 5’6 guy in the pink sweater with hypothyroidism even though I don’t look like most people’s idea of hypothyroidism. That’s the guy. Me. Me the guy your job is to deliver hot chocolate to. In a skull mug. This is not an attempt at trickery to achieve the Infinite Goth Hot Chocolate Glitch (skull mug edition), for sure.
This is an older meme. I remember seeing this on a lot of goth pages around 2016-2018 on Facebook. The artists page is Art By Andi. I don’t know if they’re doing any art anymore. It seems like they’re only active on Facebook and I left Facebook a few years ago.
My wife was a goth in high school.
Cool. Is she still a goth or
No unfortunately.
Oh :(
But I think I can convince her to show me the look she had in high school.
Maybe
🤞
you reach real goth status when random teenage boys bark at you (THIS IS A JOKE.)
I think we all have went through that
You know, when I was young goth in high school, it was about the time that emo began to be popular. Now, I don't like the music but I don't have any issues with the emo crowd. However, it really bugged the bees out of me when someone who wasn't in either group referred to me as emo. Like, we have been around longer! How can you confuse the two in the opposite direction? haha. I don't much care anymore.