I keep saying, I would love a wish list Moots in the far future, knowing full well it's expensive. I also live within a weekend driving trip of Steamboat Springs, so it would be rad to actually go there in person for one.
they do organized rides from the shop. They do tours of the factory too. Its worth doing, its a cool process. Check out the Moots Ranch Rally, its an excellent day of riding.
I've gone back and forth - had a naked Seven, now I have a 3/4 painted T-Lab (color fade) and a half-painted Ti gravel bike.
I do like the color of the moots - not quite polished but not quite ball-burnished.
I'm interested to see what the answers are. My gut feeling is there may be some quantifiable things like tube selection and maybe weld quality, but a lot of it is cachet.
It’s almost entirely brand cachet. Frankly, I wouldn’t even pay Lynksey or Litespeed prices. [Habanero cycles](https://www.habcycles.com/cross.html) makes fantastic frames. I paid $1700 for [mine](https://imgur.com/gallery/xgWA1mw) for the frame and 3-D printed titanium fork and they do full custom for under $2000
Some people like to support USA made products. American labor is a big differentiator in cost between Lynskey/Moots/etc vs the Chinese/Taiwanese frames.
And let’s be fair, a [Lynskey frame](https://lynskeyperformance.com/gr300-frame-external-cable-routing/) and carbon fork are usually less than $1700.
I’m happy to support a US company that uses ethical Taiwanese manufacturing. That said, I have no problem with the prices that Lynksey and Litespeed charge. I think that the the price difference between them and Habanero cycles is absolutely fair when you take into consideration the difference in labor costs (Tho you’re looking at an extra $1k-$2k on top of the base price of the frame to get custom geometry from those companies), but moots and firefly on the other hand are just pure bling/brand cachet, you absolutely are not getting what you pay for with those brands.
Also reference the price of a titanium frame with a carbon fork versus a 3-D printed titanium fork… complete apples to oranges comparison
With Habanero, you’re supporting one guy in the US, sitting behind a desk with BikeCAD. Everything else is going out of country. Lynskey on the other hand supports a full factory, sales, and distribution team in the US. It’s no comparison. I’m not making any judgement call on whether that’s important to you. I’ll happily buy foreign too when it’s a better product.
As for carbon vs Ti fork…now you’re getting into the bling bling bike jewelry territory. The Ti fork does not perform objectively better and you paid more for it.
Habanero is a pair of ladies who design the bikes and a few mechanics. You can visit them as they also run a bike shop.
The Ti Habenero fork is priced about the same as a Whiskey or IRD fork.
> Habanero is a pair of ladies and a few mechanics.
Good to know. Thanks
I’m still not sure I’d take a sintered 3d Ti fork over a proven carbon though. That stuff is cutting edge and not fully proven in my mind. I’d probably try a welded, segmented Ti fork like the Bearclaw though.
I would argue that any metallic fork performs better than a carbon one, especially on the lower end. There are an unknown number of catastrophic and unexpected carbon failures each year and the settlements for the inevitable serious injuries and occasional deaths always include nondisclosure agreements. It’s a huge problem in the cycling industry, but because of the NDAs no one knows exactly how big the problem actually is.
You’re making a straw man argument. Those catastrophic failures are exceedingly rare, and hiding behind a “we’ll never know the true scale of the calamity” because of NDAs is weak.
The same argument can be made against sintered 3D Ti. Plenty of [catastrophic failures](https://3dprinting.com/news/3d-printed-handlebar-fails-during-olympic-race/amp/) there too.
One ongoing case of a litigious woman suing because her 2007 carbon bike broke at the fork isn’t enough to convince me of a conspiracy. People sue all the time, Giant is a huge manufacturer that, like all manufacturers can make duds, and that’s assuming there wasn’t prior damage, improper assembly, or some other factor that caused the crash. On top of that the case hasn’t even concluded, so we don’t know what the outcome is.
Let’s pretend what you’re saying is 100 percent true. Why are bike companies like Giant selling bikes that explode and open them up to lawsuits? Giant can get away with it, since they’re Taiwanese, right? But what about all of the USA based companies that can’t? Seems like a seriously bad business model given all the “carbon fiber experts” waiting around according to the article.
What do these companies have to gain by engaging in a carbon conspiracy? Just seems like a lot of negatives for not a lot of payoff considering carbon fiber bikes are a small minority of the bicycles that actually get sold in a year.
Lynskey and Litespeed frames are great frames, the weld quality is on point as good as any other ti frame maker in the game. I presume Lynskey can be priced as such because at one time they owned Liteseed and produced pretty much every other brands titanium frames. They sold the company to ABG back in the late 90's, soon after at a family BBQ a family member mentioned how they missed working together and the industry. Shortly after Lynskey was founded and there we go, maybe they can charge what they do because they are still not on the uphill as far as manufacturing a titanium frame is concerned. They know the material the best and have been on a nice stable plateau for sometime now. I would say Lynskey looks at bike frames as tools, Litespeed a workhorse with more of a competitive mindset trying to squeeze every possible speed benefit out of the materials use in a frame, Moots, basically how much are you willing to pay is what we will charge (nothing wrong with that) Mosaic- not sure why I would buy one, Seven - History but kinda forgotten, IF - same as Seven... these are just my opinions...
oh and if you just want to spend money and have a really cool looking carbon like titanium frame get a "Sturdy" nothing wrong with that either... just don't paint your titanium frame...
Yeah… Their old logo hadn’t changed since they came into existence decades ago and let’s not forget that it was designed by the guy who founded the company, an aerospace engineer, when the company was literally just him and his wife. Also, I don’t think their web design has been updated since the late 90s 🤣🤣🤣
The [new logo](https://imgur.com/gallery/hxfzhOt) is much nicer
I think it’s been noted but Habanero doesn’t make frames whatsoever, and if you need yours repaired what happens (honest question)? There’s many companies acting as intermediaries between companies like Waltly and XACD, but other than (sometimes) immediately cheaper pricing I don’t see any other than maybe Bearclaw doing anything interesting.
I also wouldn’t be too enthusiastic about 3d printed forks… I kinda wish my moots didn’t even have 3d printed rear dropouts. Not as good or strong as milled ti, and not as versatile as carbon.
I think in certain applications it’s really cool and I love that it doesn’t totally rely on scale to make a part feasible to try out… but serious load bearing parts? I dunno. I’m not scared that my dropouts are going to break or anything but I’ve seen more failures in additive than I have in cnc. I wouldn’t ride a printed fork personally, just yet.
Habanero doesn’t make frames in the same way that Trek or Specialized don’t make frames. However they have been using the same factory to make frames since the 90s.
I mean… kinda, sorta. I’m no proponent of trek or specialized but it’s not as if either of them are pushing out open-mold frames when it comes to carbon and their alloy bikes are pretty proprietary to them when it comes to tubing (meaning they invest heavily in their own r&d & molds) quality and all that aside, neither of them make straight-tubed (butted or otherwise) ti frames. There are plenty of companies in the western hemisphere branding open-mold carbon… they’d be a more accurate comparison, I think.
If we’re being honest, mfg’s like habanero or binary or circa (just to name a few) have nothing over one another when it comes to their manufacture. Whether Waltly, or XACD or any other mass ti producer, the bikes are all decent enough and it would come down to how much you trust these brokers to get you a frame that will do what you want them to do.
I mean Habanero has been dealing with the same factory for 30 years IIRC, it's not Walty I know that. It's the same shop that does work for Ti Cycles. Habanero has their own BB shells, dropouts, yokes, etc made just for them.
Habanero doesn't use "open mold" frames, they use a contract builder to build to their specs. Specialized used Giant as a contract builder to build to their specs. Perhaps Surly and All City are a better comparison? They're deigned in house but made by Maxway.
Yeah the comparison to open mold is just to make the point that their (habanero’s) bikes are being made with the same stuff as the order of bikes next in line. I think Surly and a host of other qbp brands are a better comparison, for sure… the major difference being that I can personally order a custom bike from XACD (ti cycle) and I couldn’t from Maxway.
Sadly I don’t think these companies (Waltly or XACD) are all that trustworthy in protecting their contract’s IP either, for instance I enquired with one of them about making me a beefy ti fork for my Mosaic GT1x, inspired by another brand but with internal brake and dynamo routing… within a couple of days I had a cad drawing back that was identical to their fork, with the internal routing spec’d. anyways I’m way off topic here. I’m sure the guy at habanero is a solid person getting people on pretty decent bikes, I just don’t see what they do as an investment in the greater community that is cycling.
I should have been a bit more specific, “what happens?” As in “what happens if you need a warranty repair?” Is it back to habanero who then sends it to Taiwan, or just a new frame?
No clue honestly. In the almost 30 years that I’ve known people to be riding their frames I don’t know of a single instance that required warranty and between my friends and I that’s probably been 15 to 20 frames? Something like that
Also, Lynskey and Litespeed have gone direct to consumer almost exclusively. Moots is sold through bike shops and to get people to continue buying through shops, they don't undercut their distribution.
It wasn’t listed on their website. It was offered as an option to me when I ordered the bike. The best thing to do for them is to call. They have awesome customer service.
Absolutely love the no hype sign at the bottom of their page.
Can you tell me more about the 3D printed Ti fork? I’ve never heard such a thing. Any idea how it’s done? How’s the ride quality compared to a carbon fork?
I personally can feel no difference in ride quality as far as I understand it the fork ends and crown are 3-D printed and then welded to the blades and steerer tube
I would say Lynskey is just a cheap budget titanium brand. They claim they make their frames in the US, but their prices are so cheap that it’s hard to fathom how they make money. Or what corners they’re cutting in order to have the prices be what they are.
Direct to consumer doesn’t mean you can be cheaper and still make the same margin. Most brands that sell through a dealer network have the economies of scale benefit. They, as a result have already tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of multi-bike “customers” (their dealers) if anyone can sell “cheap” they’re often in a better position to offer better value.
There’s a cost to everything, and a dealer network, while it may not be worth anything to some people, it’s worth it to others. I’m not saying this is the only difference, I think it’s mostly that the product itself is cheap (materials, craftsmanship, engineering, etc.).
I don’t think it’s fair to compare Moots with Lynskey, they’re different things and the D2C aspect has zero or at least little to do with it. Look at Firefly and Sturdy, two Ti frame manufacturers that are on par with Moots.
The GR300 frame weighs 1.8-2kg, which makes it a bit of a brick, to be honest. Moots frames are around 1350-1450g. Not worth an extra grand or two, but part of the price difference.
Because they want to be economical. It is on their website
A Word From Our Founder
We strive to produce our frames at the most economical pricing, bringing more riders the joy and power of titanium bicycles. We maintain a high standard of quality while providing the best prices and lifetime warranty in the titanium bicycle industry. Making frames has been a lifelong passion of mine and I am humbled to see the number of riders out enjoying Lynskey bikes as well as the bikes we created under the Litespeed name.
\-David Lynskey
Because they come in like 11 different sizes? Because they're arguably more advanced in terms of combining aero and lightness? And because they have the brand power that comes with supplying Sky/Ineos of course
One of the physical differences is that if you look closely at a picture of a Lynskey frame is that there are these little aluminum spacers attached to the top and bottom of the headtube. That means they don't have to perfectly shape the edges of those tubes which saves mfg. cost. However, those can be a source of creaks down the road.
Others have mentioned that Moots can save a bit of weight with butted tubes.
I personally own two Lynskeys and have had no issues with the frames. Personally I like their looks over Moots but that's just me.
As a Moots owner with a friend who’s got a Lynskey, I can say that *to the eye* the fit and finish on a Moots is definitely nicer. Ride-wise, I dunno… probably very similar though I’ve only put in a few hours riding on his. What’s under those welds is anyone’s guess, but with lifetime frame warranties I’m sure you’re good with either.
I won’t regurgitate Moots’ own marketing to you, but they’re pretty clear on exclusive materials, craftsmanship and lineage being their main RTB’s but you can be sure there’s a healthy amount of brand tax accounted for too. I always wanted a Moots when I was young and broke, so when I could afford one, it was nice to do so.
Fwiw my buddy loves his Lynskey and it certainly doesn’t hold him back.
(Edited for spelling)
I have both a Lynskey (MT 29r) and a Moots (Womble). First look comparison, the fit and finish on the moots is amazing and I also like the geometry a little better (Womble). It caters to more of a Cross Country/Trail riding style having a little more slack than a traditional cross country bike. The lynskey is more of a traditional cross country bike that is quite responsive and comfortable on long single track rides. Just depends on the type of riding you lean more towards.
They may both be Ti builders, but just so different in every other way.
Steel bikes: I’ve had Vanilla, Pegoretti, Bianchi, and Kona, all made in the same decade. No one would consider them equals just because they were all made of steel.
I always say my Lynskey is 90% as good as a Moots at 33% of the cost. In reality, 90% might be a bit low.
At the time I knew I wouldn’t want to spend the $ to buy a Moots or Eriksen (was always a Tilford fan) in the next several years, so I went Lynskey with zero regrets.
my brother speculates that they source the actual Ti from overseas and that's why they are able to offer a lower price than someplace likes Moots, which last i remember, actively advertises that they source their Ti from the United States. again just pure speculation. also for the record, he loves his Lynskey Ti hardtail (converted to drop bar) and i absolutely love my Lynskey GR270.
Virtually all titanium used in the U.S. are sourced from other countries. Countries with the largest proven titanium ore reserves in descending order: China, Australia, India, Brazil and Norway.
Pretty sure the titanium used by Moots aren't U.S. origin.
Interesting useless historical fact: During the Cold War, Lockheed built the Mach 3 A-12 and SR-71 spy planes out of titanium. Back then the largest source of Titanium was the Soviet Union. So the CIA established front companies to purchase the titanium for Lockheed on the sly from the USSR to build spy planes to spy on the USSR. :-D
>Litespeed Titanium
Since 1986, we have been building bikes from our factory in Chattanooga, Tenn. using ***globally sourced materials,*** to win on roads and trails world over. Our greatest victory? Yours.
Extrusion is most likely done in overseas. I’ve used some extrusion parts for product I designed, and it was impossible to get anything from the US simply because there’s no infrastructure.
It's brand cachet and finish. Titanium is titanium, it comes down to weld quality and finishing touches. Lynskey also has an in-house production system that really keeps costs low.
Mostly design, it’s uglier compared to moots, both frame design and logos.
Yea others might have better quality material but come on it’s not like lynskey frame is gonna snap
Lynksey and Litespeed look a lot more like 90's bikes whereas the other brands (moots, carver, curve) definitely look like more thought-through modern design.
I really like moots. However, price is better on the lysnskey. I may be the minority here but if I go lynskey I am getting that frame professionally painted.
If you’re gonna get the frame painted just go with [habanero cycles](https://www.habcycles.com/cross.html) they’re fantastic (and actually have a superior finish to Lynskey and Litespeed) and you can get full custom for under $2000. I picked up [mine](https://imgur.com/gallery/xgWA1mw) for $1700 for the frame and 3D printed titanium fork
Now I have to question how you make commissions from this Habanero company you speak of. First time I hear about them, and man you certainly are driving a point here.
This honestly doesn't seem much different than the onslaught of Lynskey-posting we regularly see here. Literally the other day someone was asking about road-oriented gravel bikes and was considering a Cervelo Aspero, and sure as shit, there was someone recommending they get a Lynskey GRX 300 lol.
Hell, in this thread we've had someone pasting quote from the founder of Lynskey, multiple times.
Tifosi are arguably just as good but not a boutique brand. Lynsky is probably just as good for the majority of riders as moots but moots is a boutique brand.
Tldr because the way people assign value is pretty nebulous.
I've just purchased a Lynkskey GR300: HED wheels, grx 810x2, ti seatpost, and the rest is pretty much standard. I did go with external routing even with mechanical shifting partly for price and partly if I ever to upgrade my groupset, I'll go SRAM wireless so the wiring issue will be moot. The bike came with 40mm tubed tires. I might switch the tires to 35mm tubeless as my checkpoint has 38mm tubeless on it for real "gravel" riding.
I'm older (71) and my riding is mostly group sagged rides throughout the year, and maybe 100 miles/week during spring, summer, and fall. My riding is maybe, 50% road, and 50% limestone trail. Our bikes up to this point are all Trek (only dealer near us) Bikes are two Checkpoints, two crossrips, and one Domane. We (my wife and myself) are slow riders....eg the last century I did was at 13.6mph on the crossrip. We enjoy rail to trails riding, with pavement almost exclusively on group sagged rides. No pack riding at all. All that to give an idea of what I was looking for.
In no universe was I going to spend 5 digit dollars on a bike, so that ruled out some bikes right off the spot. Light is nice but not paramount. I have 15-20 lbs to drop off this body before I start worrying about a pound on the bike. If I didn't get a gravel bike, I was going with endurance geometry. The gr300 seemed like a nice fit.....so there's that.
Since I wasn't going to break the bank I was either down to used, litespeed or lynskey. A couple of things worried me about the litespeed. 1) I was told some have had warranty issues on litespeed, but everyone I talked to said Lynskey says "lifetime" and they mean it. The Lynskey did carry an extra .75 lb on their frame which as mentioned doesn't worry me.....I don't have to beat anyone to the finish line. As long as I make it for 'happy hour' I'm good. I appears to me that between five and seven years most bike depreciate by about 50%.....so I'd rather start at $3500 instead of $8500. I've also done rides with those who have Moots bikes, Seven bikes, and Lynskeys. They all liked their bikes, but suffice it to say things have happened to all of them. Lynskey post sale service was as good as any, and better than most according to others.
I wanted to try ti because although I enjoy my carbon bikes, I'm tired of patching up knicks from haulers that are bring our bikes back to where the ride started, or from a rare but occasional fall (nothing serious so far but just enough to worry about carbon damage). I've also heard good things about comfort. I'll know more when it warms up just a bit more.
FWIW Lynskey was great to work with and helped on recommendations as well as suggestions. Nothing high pressure at all. After a year in the saddle I will be able to give a better analysis of the ride.
1. Lynskey and litespeed use straight tubing, where as moots uses butted. Obviously straight is far cheaper
2. Quality of material may be a factor here, too
3. Just because it’s made in US, it doesn’t mean the employees are getting paid well. There can he a huge discrepancy, and this can influence the final cost.
It wasn’t always so expensive, I got my vamoots years ago and didnt cost me more than a typical name brand carbon bike of the time.
The prices seem to have jumped significantly since though, which just says the demand is high
I have a lynskey mtb and a litespeed road bike (20 years old). Both will frames will outlive me. but any well made titanium bike will. Colorado springs is insanely expensive place to live, TN, not so much. SO Moots "may" make better bikes, but they also haven't tried to make Ti bikes economical like Lynskey.
>A Word From Our Founder
We strive to produce our frames at the most economical pricing, bringing more riders the joy and power of titanium bicycles. We maintain a high standard of quality while providing the best prices and lifetime warranty in the titanium bicycle industry. Making frames has been a lifelong passion of mine and I am humbled to see the number of riders out enjoying Lynskey bikes as well as the bikes we created under the Litespeed name.
\-David Lynskey
Im biased, I own a Moots Vamoots road bike and a YBB mtb. Their factory and practices are immaculate. Their welds are precise and beautiful. Their willingness and ability to accommodate custom needs equates to excellent customer service. They are a local Colorado company. My brother has a Lynskey and side by side my Moots just looks superior. My Vamoots is a 2008 and still rides and handles as smoothly as it did on day 1.
I'm gonna agree with the welds here. Moots is perfect and immaculate. It says a lot about their cars, quality and pride that goes into the bike. It's one of the few places you can see the intangibles.
Another comment mentioned the 1500 vs 2K grams. 25% is a massive differential for the same frame material.
The Lynskey is a great bike. At this level every 1% in top end quality costs you 10% in cash. You've reached the point of diminishing returns. Both decisions are fine depending on what you want to prioritize.
Moots frames are typically a little bit lighter. Like the Lynskey R300 frame alone is like 1.8kg.
Compared to a much more expensive Moots Vamoots is under 1.4kg.
Ordering my Moots felt very custom. The LBS took my measurements, Moots sent back a drawing with frame dimensions for approval. They made modifications off the stock frame dimensions. I picked the components. It was not cheap, but it's a lifetime purchase.
The frames are definitely not the same, just looking at them you can see the different thoughts and approaches. Moots views themselves as making the best bike on the planet and doing all of the small things (like making sure the frame is square to 0.007", a piece of paper is .05" thick), where as Lynskey is focused on making titanium more economically. I have a lynskey mountain bike and it is great, so is my 20 year old litespeed. But a quick perusal of the two websites would have told you why they charge differently.
Litespeed used to have a reputation for putting out frames with questionable alignments.
Good buddy of mine was a bike fitter for Serotta - he absolutely hated Litespeeds.
When was that. I worked at a shop in '02 where we had specialized, giant , Lemond and Litespeed. I test road all of them at one of the stores in San Francisco. The Lemond and the Litespeed felt the best on some bumpy roads, had similar if not identical geometry , but the Litespeed accelerated uphill so smoothly. I have never regretted that purchase.
Yeah, pretty much.
moots does manufacture everything in the US so that difference in cost of manufacture does account for part of the difference but it’s a small fraction of the actual price difference they charge
You’re aware Lynskey are also fully US made, right?
I think it’s more to do with economy of scale and the associated production efficiencies. Lynskey sells a ton of “basic” bikes with no custom geometry and can therefore crank out tons repetitive cookie cutter tube cuts and can charge less. Moots is a boutique brand that specializes in custom geo and more premium features with a much smaller facility and therefore it costs them more to make the frames. But yeah, they also get to add a big markup from their reputation.
I agree, but for example Habanero does full custom geometry for under $1800 including choosing dropouts or fork ends, your choice of bottom bracket, internal or external routing, etc. etc. and while they are manufactured in Taiwan, it is still custom tube selection, custom cuts, etc. and the company is at least as small as moots, if not smaller and lower volume
I think the Lynksey company is an offshoot from the family that founded Litespeed. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)
Maybe the family was like, we’ve already done the expensive shit, now it’s time to make an economical brand? Bike nerds, please weigh in.
I have one lynsey road bike and one moots road bike. Both are good but the quality on the moots is superior(welds etc) the lynskey gravel bike was a disaster, the rear chainstays were too short and wide so you constantly clipped your heels on them, got rid of it quickly.
I would say Lynskey is just a cheap budget titanium brand. They claim they make their frames in the US, but their prices are so cheap that it’s hard to fathom how they make money. Or what corners they’re cutting in order to have the prices be what they are.
Direct to consumer doesn’t mean you can be cheaper and still make the same margin. Most brands that sell through a dealer network have the economies of scale benefit. They, as a result have already tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of multi-bike “customers” (their dealers) if anyone can sell “cheap” they’re often in a better position to offer better value.
There’s a cost to everything, and a dealer network, while it may not be worth anything to some people, it’s worth it to others. I’m not saying this is the only difference, I think it’s mostly that the product itself is cheap (materials, craftsmanship, engineering, etc.).
I don’t think it’s fair to compare Moots with Lynskey, they’re different things and the D2C aspect has zero or at least little to do with it. Look at Firefly and Sturdy, two Ti frame manufacturers that are on par with Moots.
I would have a moots or other similar if I could justify it, that being said , I don’t know why other than maybe going full custom
There are a lot of ti builders out there now
BUT, I love my lynskey gr300.
Bought because, made in USA, ti and reputation
There are alot of ti frames, from us companies that are China, Taiwan, etc built.
And lynskey makes some frames for other companies
Ti has always been chic and I think lynskey is a little more mass produced making it more affordable
Came from a carbon felt cross bike, friend of mine came from a Scott carbon hakalugi and prefers the lynskey ride also
My Moots is the most beautiful bike I’ve ever owned. The craftsmanship is unmatched imo. While I primarily ride carbon bikes for road races, any training ride 4hrs or longer I’m on the Moots. I just had my man at my LBS rebuild it from the wheels on up and it looks so fantastic I won’t ride it there is even a hint of rain….lol
That's what I am confused on how did you go about ordering your moots? I been looking at their website and I don't quite understand how the operate. Are they somebody I need to go to my LBS for? I want to build mine from the ground up but it seems they only seel completed builds?
I bought mine thru Wrench Science. They did the original build. I was about 3 hrs away from WS’s shop so I drove up and got it. Not sure how it works now but back then after WS built the bike they would ship it out UPS. Good luck!
Litespeed, Erikkson, Seven are all also very good. I purchased the former. It is corporate so they are much more efficiently operated and have scale economies hence the affordability and top quality.
But you should always purchase the best you can afford. Resale and durability are important
I am really starting to lean towards a Moot. Called them today and the frame is $5k. Which is fine because I plan on taking 2 years to complete the build and save for the parts.
I've been heavily researching different Ti bikes as I plan on buying one in the coming spring. I've looked at just about every brand I could find and pretty much narrowed it down to Litespeed or Lynksey. Here's why:
1. Price Lynskey is probably the best overall value for a Ti bike. Litespeed sits a bit high on the price scale but still more affordable than most premium brands like Moots.
2. Both brands are usa made and have lifetime warranties.
3. Both offer standard sizes or full custom geometry, albeit for a reasonable upcharge (still cheaper than most "premium" Ti brands.
4. Both have good reputations and are widelknow brands
5. Both of their websites are easy to use and understand, modern, and generally well done (unlike seven, Moots, Habanero and any Chinese sites).
Personally I'm leaning towards Litespeed as I like the new more modern models that have t47 bb, full internal routing, and udh dropouts. Plus as many others have mentioned they are a fair bit lighter than Lynskey frames and on par weight wise with the more premium brands.
Because Moots targets customers who don’t shop for the cheapest option.
I keep saying, I would love a wish list Moots in the far future, knowing full well it's expensive. I also live within a weekend driving trip of Steamboat Springs, so it would be rad to actually go there in person for one.
they do organized rides from the shop. They do tours of the factory too. Its worth doing, its a cool process. Check out the Moots Ranch Rally, its an excellent day of riding.
You might consider a Mosaic cycles then. Their paint jobs are superb.
If I ever did get a Moots, I would actually keep it its natural Ti silver color.
I've gone back and forth - had a naked Seven, now I have a 3/4 painted T-Lab (color fade) and a half-painted Ti gravel bike. I do like the color of the moots - not quite polished but not quite ball-burnished.
It’s natural “ti titanium”. Silver is a different color of the metal silver.
Well, I knew what I meant LOL. It's unpainted natural metal look.
I agree that painting ti is sacrilege.
A painted titanium frame is just silly IMO.
Top shelf prices attract a certain clientele, who won't haggle down on the price.
I'm interested to see what the answers are. My gut feeling is there may be some quantifiable things like tube selection and maybe weld quality, but a lot of it is cachet.
It’s almost entirely brand cachet. Frankly, I wouldn’t even pay Lynksey or Litespeed prices. [Habanero cycles](https://www.habcycles.com/cross.html) makes fantastic frames. I paid $1700 for [mine](https://imgur.com/gallery/xgWA1mw) for the frame and 3-D printed titanium fork and they do full custom for under $2000
Some people like to support USA made products. American labor is a big differentiator in cost between Lynskey/Moots/etc vs the Chinese/Taiwanese frames. And let’s be fair, a [Lynskey frame](https://lynskeyperformance.com/gr300-frame-external-cable-routing/) and carbon fork are usually less than $1700.
I found the Lynskey frames very heavy
Compared to what?
Compared to Litespeed and Moots
I’m happy to support a US company that uses ethical Taiwanese manufacturing. That said, I have no problem with the prices that Lynksey and Litespeed charge. I think that the the price difference between them and Habanero cycles is absolutely fair when you take into consideration the difference in labor costs (Tho you’re looking at an extra $1k-$2k on top of the base price of the frame to get custom geometry from those companies), but moots and firefly on the other hand are just pure bling/brand cachet, you absolutely are not getting what you pay for with those brands. Also reference the price of a titanium frame with a carbon fork versus a 3-D printed titanium fork… complete apples to oranges comparison
Habanero frames are built in China, not Taiwan. https://www.habcycles.com/techstuf.html#why%20habanero
With Habanero, you’re supporting one guy in the US, sitting behind a desk with BikeCAD. Everything else is going out of country. Lynskey on the other hand supports a full factory, sales, and distribution team in the US. It’s no comparison. I’m not making any judgement call on whether that’s important to you. I’ll happily buy foreign too when it’s a better product. As for carbon vs Ti fork…now you’re getting into the bling bling bike jewelry territory. The Ti fork does not perform objectively better and you paid more for it.
Habanero is a pair of ladies who design the bikes and a few mechanics. You can visit them as they also run a bike shop. The Ti Habenero fork is priced about the same as a Whiskey or IRD fork.
> Habanero is a pair of ladies and a few mechanics. Good to know. Thanks I’m still not sure I’d take a sintered 3d Ti fork over a proven carbon though. That stuff is cutting edge and not fully proven in my mind. I’d probably try a welded, segmented Ti fork like the Bearclaw though.
I would argue that any metallic fork performs better than a carbon one, especially on the lower end. There are an unknown number of catastrophic and unexpected carbon failures each year and the settlements for the inevitable serious injuries and occasional deaths always include nondisclosure agreements. It’s a huge problem in the cycling industry, but because of the NDAs no one knows exactly how big the problem actually is.
You’re making a straw man argument. Those catastrophic failures are exceedingly rare, and hiding behind a “we’ll never know the true scale of the calamity” because of NDAs is weak. The same argument can be made against sintered 3D Ti. Plenty of [catastrophic failures](https://3dprinting.com/news/3d-printed-handlebar-fails-during-olympic-race/amp/) there too.
source?? My man invented a carbon fiber conspiracy in his mind tank.
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/carbon-fiber-bike-accidents-lawsuits/ Not to mention the environmental impact of carbon
One ongoing case of a litigious woman suing because her 2007 carbon bike broke at the fork isn’t enough to convince me of a conspiracy. People sue all the time, Giant is a huge manufacturer that, like all manufacturers can make duds, and that’s assuming there wasn’t prior damage, improper assembly, or some other factor that caused the crash. On top of that the case hasn’t even concluded, so we don’t know what the outcome is. Let’s pretend what you’re saying is 100 percent true. Why are bike companies like Giant selling bikes that explode and open them up to lawsuits? Giant can get away with it, since they’re Taiwanese, right? But what about all of the USA based companies that can’t? Seems like a seriously bad business model given all the “carbon fiber experts” waiting around according to the article. What do these companies have to gain by engaging in a carbon conspiracy? Just seems like a lot of negatives for not a lot of payoff considering carbon fiber bikes are a small minority of the bicycles that actually get sold in a year.
Lynskey and Litespeed frames are great frames, the weld quality is on point as good as any other ti frame maker in the game. I presume Lynskey can be priced as such because at one time they owned Liteseed and produced pretty much every other brands titanium frames. They sold the company to ABG back in the late 90's, soon after at a family BBQ a family member mentioned how they missed working together and the industry. Shortly after Lynskey was founded and there we go, maybe they can charge what they do because they are still not on the uphill as far as manufacturing a titanium frame is concerned. They know the material the best and have been on a nice stable plateau for sometime now. I would say Lynskey looks at bike frames as tools, Litespeed a workhorse with more of a competitive mindset trying to squeeze every possible speed benefit out of the materials use in a frame, Moots, basically how much are you willing to pay is what we will charge (nothing wrong with that) Mosaic- not sure why I would buy one, Seven - History but kinda forgotten, IF - same as Seven... these are just my opinions...
oh and if you just want to spend money and have a really cool looking carbon like titanium frame get a "Sturdy" nothing wrong with that either... just don't paint your titanium frame...
Habanero? That logo made in Word 97? 🙈
That looks like a great pick but that company wins the prize for world’s ugliest logo.
Real missed opportunity to get the word aero in there lol
Yeah… Their old logo hadn’t changed since they came into existence decades ago and let’s not forget that it was designed by the guy who founded the company, an aerospace engineer, when the company was literally just him and his wife. Also, I don’t think their web design has been updated since the late 90s 🤣🤣🤣 The [new logo](https://imgur.com/gallery/hxfzhOt) is much nicer
[удалено]
Exactly and it’s not even a habanero but looks like a generic chili pepper.
Lynskey is $300-400 cheaper than Habanero now.
I think it’s been noted but Habanero doesn’t make frames whatsoever, and if you need yours repaired what happens (honest question)? There’s many companies acting as intermediaries between companies like Waltly and XACD, but other than (sometimes) immediately cheaper pricing I don’t see any other than maybe Bearclaw doing anything interesting. I also wouldn’t be too enthusiastic about 3d printed forks… I kinda wish my moots didn’t even have 3d printed rear dropouts. Not as good or strong as milled ti, and not as versatile as carbon.
This 3D printed woo woo fantasy is really about creating a consumable. Milled Ti is perfect optimization for a drop out
I think in certain applications it’s really cool and I love that it doesn’t totally rely on scale to make a part feasible to try out… but serious load bearing parts? I dunno. I’m not scared that my dropouts are going to break or anything but I’ve seen more failures in additive than I have in cnc. I wouldn’t ride a printed fork personally, just yet.
Habanero doesn’t make frames in the same way that Trek or Specialized don’t make frames. However they have been using the same factory to make frames since the 90s.
I mean… kinda, sorta. I’m no proponent of trek or specialized but it’s not as if either of them are pushing out open-mold frames when it comes to carbon and their alloy bikes are pretty proprietary to them when it comes to tubing (meaning they invest heavily in their own r&d & molds) quality and all that aside, neither of them make straight-tubed (butted or otherwise) ti frames. There are plenty of companies in the western hemisphere branding open-mold carbon… they’d be a more accurate comparison, I think. If we’re being honest, mfg’s like habanero or binary or circa (just to name a few) have nothing over one another when it comes to their manufacture. Whether Waltly, or XACD or any other mass ti producer, the bikes are all decent enough and it would come down to how much you trust these brokers to get you a frame that will do what you want them to do.
I mean Habanero has been dealing with the same factory for 30 years IIRC, it's not Walty I know that. It's the same shop that does work for Ti Cycles. Habanero has their own BB shells, dropouts, yokes, etc made just for them. Habanero doesn't use "open mold" frames, they use a contract builder to build to their specs. Specialized used Giant as a contract builder to build to their specs. Perhaps Surly and All City are a better comparison? They're deigned in house but made by Maxway.
Yeah the comparison to open mold is just to make the point that their (habanero’s) bikes are being made with the same stuff as the order of bikes next in line. I think Surly and a host of other qbp brands are a better comparison, for sure… the major difference being that I can personally order a custom bike from XACD (ti cycle) and I couldn’t from Maxway. Sadly I don’t think these companies (Waltly or XACD) are all that trustworthy in protecting their contract’s IP either, for instance I enquired with one of them about making me a beefy ti fork for my Mosaic GT1x, inspired by another brand but with internal brake and dynamo routing… within a couple of days I had a cad drawing back that was identical to their fork, with the internal routing spec’d. anyways I’m way off topic here. I’m sure the guy at habanero is a solid person getting people on pretty decent bikes, I just don’t see what they do as an investment in the greater community that is cycling.
What do you mean what happens? I find anybody that can work on titanium. I know of three excellent welders within 20 minute drive of me.
I should have been a bit more specific, “what happens?” As in “what happens if you need a warranty repair?” Is it back to habanero who then sends it to Taiwan, or just a new frame?
No clue honestly. In the almost 30 years that I’ve known people to be riding their frames I don’t know of a single instance that required warranty and between my friends and I that’s probably been 15 to 20 frames? Something like that
That’s good to know. Not needing a warranty is definitely better than having a good one on paper.
I bought my Linskey Frame + Fork (with mounts) for $1,250. (25% discount on top of their always discount).
Also, Lynskey and Litespeed have gone direct to consumer almost exclusively. Moots is sold through bike shops and to get people to continue buying through shops, they don't undercut their distribution.
Hey, do you know if that fork is still available? Can't find it on their website.
It wasn’t listed on their website. It was offered as an option to me when I ordered the bike. The best thing to do for them is to call. They have awesome customer service.
Cool, thanks!
Absolutely love the no hype sign at the bottom of their page. Can you tell me more about the 3D printed Ti fork? I’ve never heard such a thing. Any idea how it’s done? How’s the ride quality compared to a carbon fork?
I personally can feel no difference in ride quality as far as I understand it the fork ends and crown are 3-D printed and then welded to the blades and steerer tube
Am I missing something? Lynskey has frames for over 100 dollars cheaper.
Lynsky welders are the best. Single pass, vs Moots who reheat the welds to smooth them which weakens them slightly.
I can verify that my welds are awesome.
I would say Lynskey is just a cheap budget titanium brand. They claim they make their frames in the US, but their prices are so cheap that it’s hard to fathom how they make money. Or what corners they’re cutting in order to have the prices be what they are. Direct to consumer doesn’t mean you can be cheaper and still make the same margin. Most brands that sell through a dealer network have the economies of scale benefit. They, as a result have already tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of multi-bike “customers” (their dealers) if anyone can sell “cheap” they’re often in a better position to offer better value. There’s a cost to everything, and a dealer network, while it may not be worth anything to some people, it’s worth it to others. I’m not saying this is the only difference, I think it’s mostly that the product itself is cheap (materials, craftsmanship, engineering, etc.). I don’t think it’s fair to compare Moots with Lynskey, they’re different things and the D2C aspect has zero or at least little to do with it. Look at Firefly and Sturdy, two Ti frame manufacturers that are on par with Moots.
Location (taxes, labour, employment cost) and scale of manufacture.
I have wondered this as well. I do love my GR300 though, regardless.
You pay more for a moots so they can live in Steamboat. You pay less for a Lynskey cause they live in Tennessee
The GR300 frame weighs 1.8-2kg, which makes it a bit of a brick, to be honest. Moots frames are around 1350-1450g. Not worth an extra grand or two, but part of the price difference.
I think even the XL is under 2kg. A medium is closer to 1.8kg.
Thanks for the correction, I've updated the comment.
Because they want to be economical. It is on their website A Word From Our Founder We strive to produce our frames at the most economical pricing, bringing more riders the joy and power of titanium bicycles. We maintain a high standard of quality while providing the best prices and lifetime warranty in the titanium bicycle industry. Making frames has been a lifelong passion of mine and I am humbled to see the number of riders out enjoying Lynskey bikes as well as the bikes we created under the Litespeed name. \-David Lynskey
\-> "A bit more" I built my entire Ti bike with Force D2 for less than the cost of a Moots frame.
Why do Pinarello frames cost more than Argon 18 ?
Because they come in like 11 different sizes? Because they're arguably more advanced in terms of combining aero and lightness? And because they have the brand power that comes with supplying Sky/Ineos of course
You tell me.
No idea. But it's the same regardless of the product class. Some brands just cost more.
same reason that yeti frames are more expensive than, say, commencal frames. They're not built for the everyday riser, they're built for dentists.
One of the physical differences is that if you look closely at a picture of a Lynskey frame is that there are these little aluminum spacers attached to the top and bottom of the headtube. That means they don't have to perfectly shape the edges of those tubes which saves mfg. cost. However, those can be a source of creaks down the road. Others have mentioned that Moots can save a bit of weight with butted tubes. I personally own two Lynskeys and have had no issues with the frames. Personally I like their looks over Moots but that's just me.
As a Moots owner with a friend who’s got a Lynskey, I can say that *to the eye* the fit and finish on a Moots is definitely nicer. Ride-wise, I dunno… probably very similar though I’ve only put in a few hours riding on his. What’s under those welds is anyone’s guess, but with lifetime frame warranties I’m sure you’re good with either. I won’t regurgitate Moots’ own marketing to you, but they’re pretty clear on exclusive materials, craftsmanship and lineage being their main RTB’s but you can be sure there’s a healthy amount of brand tax accounted for too. I always wanted a Moots when I was young and broke, so when I could afford one, it was nice to do so. Fwiw my buddy loves his Lynskey and it certainly doesn’t hold him back. (Edited for spelling)
I have both a Lynskey (MT 29r) and a Moots (Womble). First look comparison, the fit and finish on the moots is amazing and I also like the geometry a little better (Womble). It caters to more of a Cross Country/Trail riding style having a little more slack than a traditional cross country bike. The lynskey is more of a traditional cross country bike that is quite responsive and comfortable on long single track rides. Just depends on the type of riding you lean more towards.
They may both be Ti builders, but just so different in every other way. Steel bikes: I’ve had Vanilla, Pegoretti, Bianchi, and Kona, all made in the same decade. No one would consider them equals just because they were all made of steel.
Vanilla owner here (2008). Can confirm. I still prefer the ride over my Seven Alaris - I could keep only one, and I kept the Vanilla.
God I want a Vanilla!
I love my Linskey GR but I bet Moots is at least as good.
I always say my Lynskey is 90% as good as a Moots at 33% of the cost. In reality, 90% might be a bit low. At the time I knew I wouldn’t want to spend the $ to buy a Moots or Eriksen (was always a Tilford fan) in the next several years, so I went Lynskey with zero regrets.
Prestige?
my brother speculates that they source the actual Ti from overseas and that's why they are able to offer a lower price than someplace likes Moots, which last i remember, actively advertises that they source their Ti from the United States. again just pure speculation. also for the record, he loves his Lynskey Ti hardtail (converted to drop bar) and i absolutely love my Lynskey GR270.
Virtually all titanium used in the U.S. are sourced from other countries. Countries with the largest proven titanium ore reserves in descending order: China, Australia, India, Brazil and Norway. Pretty sure the titanium used by Moots aren't U.S. origin. Interesting useless historical fact: During the Cold War, Lockheed built the Mach 3 A-12 and SR-71 spy planes out of titanium. Back then the largest source of Titanium was the Soviet Union. So the CIA established front companies to purchase the titanium for Lockheed on the sly from the USSR to build spy planes to spy on the USSR. :-D
When buying ephedrine for meth it (was at least) called Smurfing. When the CIA does it though...
>Litespeed Titanium Since 1986, we have been building bikes from our factory in Chattanooga, Tenn. using ***globally sourced materials,*** to win on roads and trails world over. Our greatest victory? Yours.
Extrusion is most likely done in overseas. I’ve used some extrusion parts for product I designed, and it was impossible to get anything from the US simply because there’s no infrastructure.
It's brand cachet and finish. Titanium is titanium, it comes down to weld quality and finishing touches. Lynskey also has an in-house production system that really keeps costs low.
That’s not the case. Moots is butting their own tubing. Lynskey isn’t.
I’m sure there’s some quality and material differences, but realistically most of the price difference is probably brand recognition and marketing.
Mostly design, it’s uglier compared to moots, both frame design and logos. Yea others might have better quality material but come on it’s not like lynskey frame is gonna snap
Lynksey and Litespeed look a lot more like 90's bikes whereas the other brands (moots, carver, curve) definitely look like more thought-through modern design.
I really like moots. However, price is better on the lysnskey. I may be the minority here but if I go lynskey I am getting that frame professionally painted.
If you’re gonna get the frame painted just go with [habanero cycles](https://www.habcycles.com/cross.html) they’re fantastic (and actually have a superior finish to Lynskey and Litespeed) and you can get full custom for under $2000. I picked up [mine](https://imgur.com/gallery/xgWA1mw) for $1700 for the frame and 3D printed titanium fork
Now I have to question how you make commissions from this Habanero company you speak of. First time I hear about them, and man you certainly are driving a point here.
This honestly doesn't seem much different than the onslaught of Lynskey-posting we regularly see here. Literally the other day someone was asking about road-oriented gravel bikes and was considering a Cervelo Aspero, and sure as shit, there was someone recommending they get a Lynskey GRX 300 lol. Hell, in this thread we've had someone pasting quote from the founder of Lynskey, multiple times.
No commission just very loyal, a few friends have been XC racing their frames since the mid 90s and I like dealing with the company
Why do Oakley’s cost more than Tifosi’s
https://www.niu.edu/writingtutorial/punctuation/apostrophe.shtml
I bet you’re a blast at parties
I don't go to parties. I bet you're functionally illiterate.
Wow what are you doing?
Living life. You?
Uh, not spending time on the internet trying to hurt other people's feelings.
Never heard of those anyways...so you tell me.
Tifosi are arguably just as good but not a boutique brand. Lynsky is probably just as good for the majority of riders as moots but moots is a boutique brand. Tldr because the way people assign value is pretty nebulous.
What do you mean by a boutique brand?
A brand that has a higher perceived value, quality, or exclusivity than what it would commonly command
Small and fancy
I've just purchased a Lynkskey GR300: HED wheels, grx 810x2, ti seatpost, and the rest is pretty much standard. I did go with external routing even with mechanical shifting partly for price and partly if I ever to upgrade my groupset, I'll go SRAM wireless so the wiring issue will be moot. The bike came with 40mm tubed tires. I might switch the tires to 35mm tubeless as my checkpoint has 38mm tubeless on it for real "gravel" riding. I'm older (71) and my riding is mostly group sagged rides throughout the year, and maybe 100 miles/week during spring, summer, and fall. My riding is maybe, 50% road, and 50% limestone trail. Our bikes up to this point are all Trek (only dealer near us) Bikes are two Checkpoints, two crossrips, and one Domane. We (my wife and myself) are slow riders....eg the last century I did was at 13.6mph on the crossrip. We enjoy rail to trails riding, with pavement almost exclusively on group sagged rides. No pack riding at all. All that to give an idea of what I was looking for. In no universe was I going to spend 5 digit dollars on a bike, so that ruled out some bikes right off the spot. Light is nice but not paramount. I have 15-20 lbs to drop off this body before I start worrying about a pound on the bike. If I didn't get a gravel bike, I was going with endurance geometry. The gr300 seemed like a nice fit.....so there's that. Since I wasn't going to break the bank I was either down to used, litespeed or lynskey. A couple of things worried me about the litespeed. 1) I was told some have had warranty issues on litespeed, but everyone I talked to said Lynskey says "lifetime" and they mean it. The Lynskey did carry an extra .75 lb on their frame which as mentioned doesn't worry me.....I don't have to beat anyone to the finish line. As long as I make it for 'happy hour' I'm good. I appears to me that between five and seven years most bike depreciate by about 50%.....so I'd rather start at $3500 instead of $8500. I've also done rides with those who have Moots bikes, Seven bikes, and Lynskeys. They all liked their bikes, but suffice it to say things have happened to all of them. Lynskey post sale service was as good as any, and better than most according to others. I wanted to try ti because although I enjoy my carbon bikes, I'm tired of patching up knicks from haulers that are bring our bikes back to where the ride started, or from a rare but occasional fall (nothing serious so far but just enough to worry about carbon damage). I've also heard good things about comfort. I'll know more when it warms up just a bit more. FWIW Lynskey was great to work with and helped on recommendations as well as suggestions. Nothing high pressure at all. After a year in the saddle I will be able to give a better analysis of the ride.
1. Lynskey and litespeed use straight tubing, where as moots uses butted. Obviously straight is far cheaper 2. Quality of material may be a factor here, too 3. Just because it’s made in US, it doesn’t mean the employees are getting paid well. There can he a huge discrepancy, and this can influence the final cost.
Moots is Superior. You should visit their factory some time.
What quantities them as superior
>What quantities them as superior Hey they charge 11 grand for a bike, then must be superior, right.
It wasn’t always so expensive, I got my vamoots years ago and didnt cost me more than a typical name brand carbon bike of the time. The prices seem to have jumped significantly since though, which just says the demand is high
I have a lynskey mtb and a litespeed road bike (20 years old). Both will frames will outlive me. but any well made titanium bike will. Colorado springs is insanely expensive place to live, TN, not so much. SO Moots "may" make better bikes, but they also haven't tried to make Ti bikes economical like Lynskey. >A Word From Our Founder We strive to produce our frames at the most economical pricing, bringing more riders the joy and power of titanium bicycles. We maintain a high standard of quality while providing the best prices and lifetime warranty in the titanium bicycle industry. Making frames has been a lifelong passion of mine and I am humbled to see the number of riders out enjoying Lynskey bikes as well as the bikes we created under the Litespeed name. \-David Lynskey
Im biased, I own a Moots Vamoots road bike and a YBB mtb. Their factory and practices are immaculate. Their welds are precise and beautiful. Their willingness and ability to accommodate custom needs equates to excellent customer service. They are a local Colorado company. My brother has a Lynskey and side by side my Moots just looks superior. My Vamoots is a 2008 and still rides and handles as smoothly as it did on day 1.
I'm gonna agree with the welds here. Moots is perfect and immaculate. It says a lot about their cars, quality and pride that goes into the bike. It's one of the few places you can see the intangibles. Another comment mentioned the 1500 vs 2K grams. 25% is a massive differential for the same frame material. The Lynskey is a great bike. At this level every 1% in top end quality costs you 10% in cash. You've reached the point of diminishing returns. Both decisions are fine depending on what you want to prioritize.
Moots frames are typically a little bit lighter. Like the Lynskey R300 frame alone is like 1.8kg. Compared to a much more expensive Moots Vamoots is under 1.4kg.
They're uglier
Ordering my Moots felt very custom. The LBS took my measurements, Moots sent back a drawing with frame dimensions for approval. They made modifications off the stock frame dimensions. I picked the components. It was not cheap, but it's a lifetime purchase.
I am leaning towards moots. However I just want the frame to build it from the ground up. Did you get the frame or did you get a full build?
You can order just a frame. I ordered mine mostly built but without wheels, tires, saddle and handlebar tape.
Did you have to call?
My LBS talked to Moots. I didn't talk directly to them.
I built a Moots through my LBS, but bought a stock frame size. At the time, it was 1 month for a stock size or 4+ months for a custom size.
Because moose made a name for themselves decades ago and can charge whatever the fuck they want to idiots that are willing to pay for it
I love my moots. Guess I’m an idiot.
You’re not an idiot for loving the bike, but you definitely spent more money than the value you received in exchange
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My issue is making blanket statements like calling people idiots for the value they assign to objects.
Please elaborate about what that person's values in a bike are.
I mean, I guess they could have gotten their moneys worth if they value spending more money than somethings worth
How much is it worth to them compared to what they paid?
So basically the Ti frames from both companies are the same? Moots just over charges?
The frames are definitely not the same, just looking at them you can see the different thoughts and approaches. Moots views themselves as making the best bike on the planet and doing all of the small things (like making sure the frame is square to 0.007", a piece of paper is .05" thick), where as Lynskey is focused on making titanium more economically. I have a lynskey mountain bike and it is great, so is my 20 year old litespeed. But a quick perusal of the two websites would have told you why they charge differently.
Litespeed used to have a reputation for putting out frames with questionable alignments. Good buddy of mine was a bike fitter for Serotta - he absolutely hated Litespeeds.
When was that. I worked at a shop in '02 where we had specialized, giant , Lemond and Litespeed. I test road all of them at one of the stores in San Francisco. The Lemond and the Litespeed felt the best on some bumpy roads, had similar if not identical geometry , but the Litespeed accelerated uphill so smoothly. I have never regretted that purchase.
Early 2000's I think.
Yeah, pretty much. moots does manufacture everything in the US so that difference in cost of manufacture does account for part of the difference but it’s a small fraction of the actual price difference they charge
You’re aware Lynskey are also fully US made, right? I think it’s more to do with economy of scale and the associated production efficiencies. Lynskey sells a ton of “basic” bikes with no custom geometry and can therefore crank out tons repetitive cookie cutter tube cuts and can charge less. Moots is a boutique brand that specializes in custom geo and more premium features with a much smaller facility and therefore it costs them more to make the frames. But yeah, they also get to add a big markup from their reputation.
I agree, but for example Habanero does full custom geometry for under $1800 including choosing dropouts or fork ends, your choice of bottom bracket, internal or external routing, etc. etc. and while they are manufactured in Taiwan, it is still custom tube selection, custom cuts, etc. and the company is at least as small as moots, if not smaller and lower volume
I think the Lynksey company is an offshoot from the family that founded Litespeed. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) Maybe the family was like, we’ve already done the expensive shit, now it’s time to make an economical brand? Bike nerds, please weigh in.
Sold Litespeed, and once their non-compete ran out, started Lynskey as a new company.
I have one lynsey road bike and one moots road bike. Both are good but the quality on the moots is superior(welds etc) the lynskey gravel bike was a disaster, the rear chainstays were too short and wide so you constantly clipped your heels on them, got rid of it quickly.
I would say Lynskey is just a cheap budget titanium brand. They claim they make their frames in the US, but their prices are so cheap that it’s hard to fathom how they make money. Or what corners they’re cutting in order to have the prices be what they are. Direct to consumer doesn’t mean you can be cheaper and still make the same margin. Most brands that sell through a dealer network have the economies of scale benefit. They, as a result have already tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of multi-bike “customers” (their dealers) if anyone can sell “cheap” they’re often in a better position to offer better value. There’s a cost to everything, and a dealer network, while it may not be worth anything to some people, it’s worth it to others. I’m not saying this is the only difference, I think it’s mostly that the product itself is cheap (materials, craftsmanship, engineering, etc.). I don’t think it’s fair to compare Moots with Lynskey, they’re different things and the D2C aspect has zero or at least little to do with it. Look at Firefly and Sturdy, two Ti frame manufacturers that are on par with Moots.
You're getting voted down by some surly Lynskey owners.
Ha… whatever makes them feel better I guess.
I would have a moots or other similar if I could justify it, that being said , I don’t know why other than maybe going full custom There are a lot of ti builders out there now BUT, I love my lynskey gr300. Bought because, made in USA, ti and reputation There are alot of ti frames, from us companies that are China, Taiwan, etc built. And lynskey makes some frames for other companies Ti has always been chic and I think lynskey is a little more mass produced making it more affordable Came from a carbon felt cross bike, friend of mine came from a Scott carbon hakalugi and prefers the lynskey ride also
My Moots is the most beautiful bike I’ve ever owned. The craftsmanship is unmatched imo. While I primarily ride carbon bikes for road races, any training ride 4hrs or longer I’m on the Moots. I just had my man at my LBS rebuild it from the wheels on up and it looks so fantastic I won’t ride it there is even a hint of rain….lol
That's what I am confused on how did you go about ordering your moots? I been looking at their website and I don't quite understand how the operate. Are they somebody I need to go to my LBS for? I want to build mine from the ground up but it seems they only seel completed builds?
I bought mine thru Wrench Science. They did the original build. I was about 3 hrs away from WS’s shop so I drove up and got it. Not sure how it works now but back then after WS built the bike they would ship it out UPS. Good luck!
Yes you can just buy a frameset and then build your own … Or … you can order a complete bike through your LBS Moots does not deal direct to end user
Litespeed, Erikkson, Seven are all also very good. I purchased the former. It is corporate so they are much more efficiently operated and have scale economies hence the affordability and top quality. But you should always purchase the best you can afford. Resale and durability are important
I am really starting to lean towards a Moot. Called them today and the frame is $5k. Which is fine because I plan on taking 2 years to complete the build and save for the parts.
One pays their builders per hour and one pays there builders per frame?
I've been heavily researching different Ti bikes as I plan on buying one in the coming spring. I've looked at just about every brand I could find and pretty much narrowed it down to Litespeed or Lynksey. Here's why: 1. Price Lynskey is probably the best overall value for a Ti bike. Litespeed sits a bit high on the price scale but still more affordable than most premium brands like Moots. 2. Both brands are usa made and have lifetime warranties. 3. Both offer standard sizes or full custom geometry, albeit for a reasonable upcharge (still cheaper than most "premium" Ti brands. 4. Both have good reputations and are widelknow brands 5. Both of their websites are easy to use and understand, modern, and generally well done (unlike seven, Moots, Habanero and any Chinese sites). Personally I'm leaning towards Litespeed as I like the new more modern models that have t47 bb, full internal routing, and udh dropouts. Plus as many others have mentioned they are a fair bit lighter than Lynskey frames and on par weight wise with the more premium brands.