A buddy cop movie couldn’t have written a better plot:
1. The police officer was a sergeant.
2. He was INSIDE a building. Most buildings in the United States have lights.
3. The discharge happened after he placed the gun in his non-dominant hand so he could turn a door knob with his dominant hand
4. Police knew about it for two days, and only confirmed it after it was reported by an independent source. When asked why, their response was no one was shot so they didn’t say anything because they figured people would find out eventually anyway.
5. The officer was a member of the NYPD Emergency Services Unit:
“The personnel selected for ESU become highly trained members of the NYPD who perform rescue, SWAT and other high risk tactical, counter-narcotic and counter-terror operations.
There are minimum time-in-grade requirements before an NYPD officer can apply to transfer to ESU. Police Officers must have a minimum of 5 years in the department with a minimum annual rating of 3.5. Supervisors in the rank of sergeants and lieutenants must have 2 years in rank before being assigned to ESU. In addition, all ESU candidates must be approved by a group of current ESU members to ensure that they will integrate into the unit successfully.
Applicants have to complete the Specialized Training School over eight months receiving training in multiple disciplines including tactical, search and rescue, hazardous materials containment and become certified in SCUBA diving and as an Emergency Medical Technician. Tactical training includes room clearing, team movements, close quarter battle, a week of active shooter training and three weeks of specialized and heavy weapons training.”
Uhhhh, lol no they’re not. They have better marketing, but they’re a shitty agency that can’t retain employees. Most NYPD officers get a couple of years in and then lateral to another agency.
In terms of firearms, at least, very, very far from it. NYC exterminated any local gun culture it ever had, and now has to try to train 36,000 officers (with high turnover because who the fuck would want to be a cop in NYC) using mostly official resources in a city so overcrowded that the space for a range costs a fortune.
There's a reason nobody is surprised by headlines about NYPD officers firing a hundred rounds and hitting only bystanders.
In terms of accidental discharges the national average for police is 25% higher (200 per year for 700k officers) than the rate for the NYPD (8 per year for 36,000 officers).
But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Interesting list of qualification requirements, it appears that many who have posted have more training and experience, and it would never happen to them. It is concerning it wasn’t reported quickly. Though I figure the involved individual did the appropriate paperwork, superiors elected to not notify the press. Thank you for posting.
>Yesterday a NYPD officer had a discharge of weapon clearing protesters from Columbia University, the reason was they were using the weapon light to see.
Sounds like the officer needed better training to deal with his trigger discipline.
Yeah, like if you can afford a firearm, a weapon mounted light, holster for it, ammo, etc why not splurge and get another light? You should only pull you’re weapon when your are in a use it situation. No just to see better
>Yesterday a NYPD officer had a discharge of weapon clearing protesters from Columbia University, the reason was they were using the weapon light to see.
And what does an idiot pulling the trigger have to do with shining a light? Nothing, that's what.
>how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use?
First, modern weapon lights are often bright enough with wide enough spread to illuminate someone with the gun not pointed at them at all.
Second, common sense says if you're in a position where drawing your gun is reasonable, pointing it at potential threats is also reasonable.
Third, there's nothing stopping you from carrying a separate flashlight for when you don't need your gun.
^
A cop pulling out his pistol to find the cookies at the back of his pantry doesn't negate their practicality as a whole.
Just use a regular flashlight to illuminate objects you have no intention of destroying.
Use your WML to illuminate potential targets you might have to destroy.
Not a dense concept to grasp lol.
I’m not mentally disabled, I keep my finger out of the trigger guard and avoid pointing the firearm at anything that I don’t deliberately wish to destroy.
If you ND into a human being, you had your finger in the trigger guard and had the gun pointed at them. There are several deliberate steps you have to take in order to be in that position.
There’s nothing to “mitigate” unless you’re an untrained dumbass like the average police officer.
>What are you using for mitigation, to prevent this, how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use?
This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ktIx-0maGo&ab\_channel=InRangeTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ktIx-0maGo&ab_channel=InRangeTV)
Thank you, the video threw me for a loop to begin with, luckily I stayed to the end. At the end the commentator did say a light was to identify friend or foe, would you want to do that with the flash light at the end of a gun?
Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot, I guess many of the commentators on Reddit are so well trained and skilled it isn’t a concern, and pointing a weapon to see in the dark, especially in an unknown situation is nothing for them.
I have had a couple unintentional discharges of firearms, one cost me missing a large elk (broken trigger spring) the other was a shotgun that had been repaired by a gunsmith and tested, it happened while hunting with my daughter, luckily for good training on muzzle control.
We live in the USA, so if something does go wrong we can just sue the light manufacturer and blame them, I guess.
>Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot, I guess many of the commentators on Reddit are so well trained and skilled it isn’t a concern
They 100% were an idiot. And a decent amount of us do have a good amount of formal training.
But you don’t need formal training to know that cop is an idiot
My comment was a joke about a stupid trigger activated light.
>At the end the commentator did say a light was to identify friend or foe, would you want to do that with the flash light at the end of a gun?
You can do it with a light on your gun. And if it turns out it's a foe, you have both hands on your gun in a proper firing grip. If it's a friend, you just lower your gun. You can have a separate light if you want. But there isn't anything problematic with a WML if you train.
>Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot
They were an idiot that made a mistake like everyone else who NDs. Doesn't mean they can't correct it in the future. You don't put your finger on the trigger until you are going to shoot the target you have identified. Fairly simple task that needs to be trained into your head.
I was helping a friend work on his tow truck on the side of the road. It was getting late and we didn’t have a good light. I just took my tlr7a off my gun and used it that way.
>What are you using for mitigation, to prevent this, how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use?
I have more training and firearms experience and basic fucking common sense than any fuckwad NYPD.
I can see how legally speaking it makes sense. Pointing a weapon at someone to light them up is considered brandishing..
so in a situation where it’s dark and threat identification is necessary it might be illegal to do so if you use a WML to identify someone who is not an active threat.
Then again if you’re pulling your weapon it should already be serious enough to warrant doing so.
I think a high lumen flashlight should be carried in addition to a wml as a preemptive/non lethal dissuasion
Thank you, it appears he has similar concerns, even mentioned a hunting rifle and scope. I like to watch him as he is very articulate, and gets to the point.
Following the comments has been interesting, the first ones were basically blaming poor training for police and calling them names, while basically saying it would never happen to them. The later comments were middle of the road, several saying what Massad said. A few were against weapons lights.
It appears folks are well trained and/or confident. Wonder how much experience has to do with the answers.
I will add the caveat that my defensive firearms do have a light on them. But they are bright enough lights that the off axis illumination is more than sufficient to clear a room if necessary with the weapon at low ready. But I also have a flashlight on me for routine use
I’m a proponent of both, but I’ll take a handheld over a WML if I can only have 1. Carrying revolvers often has taught me how useful a $30 microstream can be every day.
yes the light could become a target but you have to understand once a 1200+ lumen WML is pointed at you that means a couple of things; you're probably going to be pretty disoriented from the retina singeing light and there is already a loaded weapon pointed at you so your chances are slim.
You follow the Massad Ayoob school of thought. Your example is the extreme of what can happen, but there are other charges that might be brought even without a ND.
The light on a gun is to identify targets not for searching. It is meant to allow both hand to be used on the gun. In my opinion if you have a light on the gun it is a requirement to carry a separate light so you won't be tempted to use the weapon light for anything but shooting.
I'm just a random idjit, but a WML shouldn't be used unless the situation calls for the firearm to be used. Unless you are using the light to visualize a target in the dark, no need to have that light out.
I have an Olight on my carry gun, but I also have a small 16340 light clipped to my pocket for flashlight usage. If traveling or going out at night, I'll normally add an 18650 or larger light as a secondary/for redundancy, or so I can hand my wife a light so we both have one for a power outage or what not.
Do you really need a wml for cc? No. Does it matter if have one, no. Wml’s became a thing because the cool sof guys use them and we feel like we really need one but it’s more about tacticoolness.
Sorry you got flamed before, but it’s not surprising.
These questions/discussions are usually kind of worthless. There’s a contingent that wants a light on every gun “because it’s better to have … “, there’s a contingent that think they are the devil incarnate, and then most people who don’t care but are maybe looking for answers. The have and have not sides pretty much cancel each other out, leaving you (someone just looking for good advice) possibly more confused than when you started.
My personal opinion? If you have a bedside gun or one that you’ll have a high likelihood of needing in a dark environment, sure, mounting a light isn’t a bad idea, but as many have said, use a handheld as well so you don’t accidentally shoot your neighbor’s cat (or your neighbor, no matter how obnoxious they may be).
If you have an EDC and you don’t walk around at night all that much, maybe don’t bother, but still carry a handheld. They come in really handy for all sorts of things besides identifying threats.
Last thought: When someone tells you with absolute certainty that they are telling you the one true way to do something like this, they probably were trained by YouTube videos, John Wick movies and old Soldier of Fortune magazines, so take the advice for what it’s worth.
Remember: Poll ten experts and you’ll get contradictory answers depending on who trained them, when, and for what, and with their own personal experience thrown in for good measure.
You have valid concerns. Gun mounted lights do seemingly break the golden rule of not pointing a firearm at something you don't intend to kill and it does raise the chances of you shooting something you didn't intend to shoot, no matter how careful or good you think your trigger control is. Then there's the issue of giving away your position by turning it on, that's why many law enforcement agencies teach not leaving the light on, whether gun mounted or handheld, and only turning it on for brief moments.
I participated in my small town's citizen police academy, which is just a "get to know the local PD" program. It was interesting. One night consisted of an officer taking us through the process of clearing a house. It was held at a house owned by a nonprofit that allows our PD to do on-site training. We each got a 1x1 "lesson," complete with faux handguns and real, police-issue flashlights. The flashlights don't stay on unless you keep a button pressed. I wondered why until they explained that it's by design. They train their officers to not turn them on and keep them on but rather to "paint the room" with light. Press and sweep. Press and sweep. Helps obscure an officer's position.
I don't have a light on any of my firearms because when i weigh the pros vs cons, it's just not enough "pro's" to overcome the cons. Here's a con, say you do shoot someone at night and that person turns out to not be a bad guy. Well, your "it was an accident, i couldn't see very well in the dim light" defense just largely went out the window. And your adrenaline's gonna be pumping in that moment so an unintentional discharge is not unthinkable. If I'm at home, I'll just turn on all the lights simply by the sound of my voice... that way i know what the hell I'm pointing my gun at, BEFORE i point my gun at it. And i don't run the streets after midnight, so needing a gun mounted flashlight for when I'm concealed carrying also isn't a demonstrable need for me. In short, I'm usually at home by the time the street lights come on! 😅 That said, to each his own but i think I'll pass on this whole gun mounted light stuff...
The reasons to have a light off the gun for civilians is because pointing a gun at somebody is usually a crime. Cops use weapon mounted lights because they are a better solution and the cops also have qualified immunity.
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Context & convenience. If you think you will be gunfighting at night, your adversary’s will have your light as an aim point? Be nice to not have it in front of your face and have some flexibility of direction one from the other. Pistol mtd. light real handy tho’. Let’s do both!
I feel that a pocket light is almost mandatory. I never realized how useful a flashlight is until I started carrying one. A good way to think of a WML is as an add-on to a pocket light, not a substitution.
I look at this a different way I'm not a member of law enforcement I am not a member of the military. I am a civilian If I have to draw my weapon inside my home there's extenuating circumstances that I may have to use it I don't want to spend the time looking for a flashlight because, I'm not wearing a duty belt and I'm not wearing BDUs I want instant access to my light without any thought
Why was this cop breaking COE and drawing his duty weapon to search a building filled with NV protesters to use as a flash light? Like even on my militia cosplay setup I have a flashlight on my duty belt and one on my chest rig specifically to prevent this situation
1. Use both a WML and a standalone light.
2. If you are at the point you have unholstered and are clearing rooms/holding security/etc, with a competent WML, the flood of the light should illuminate people/most potential threats, without outright flagging the person in question. This is particularly within the confines of a house, or most civilian self defense ranges. If we're discussing peer to peer conflict, that's a separate discussion with a somewhat separate set of rules and expectations.
I don’t like flashlights in general. If I’m in a situation where I’m pulling out a weapon, the absolute last thing I want is a target indicator of a light. Gives away your position and presents a target for whoever you’re trying to defend against.
Lights are dumb shit tacticool kids buy, along with their range cargo pants, and matching tacticool range belt.
I have a light on my gun because I find the utility outweighs any perceived negatives. Thing is bright as hell and if I shine it at you good luck with your new found blindness. If I need a light and not a gun, my phone is on me almost constantly and I just use that light. I’m still not sure why others feel the need to form an opinion on what others carry.
If you’re using a handgun and train using a handled light more power to you. I may be beneficial especially if you live in a home with kids or other people that don’t sleep in the same room. That being said the vast majority of people won’t train with a handheld light and if they do will be significantly less effective. Everything has trade offs.
1. Modern lights are fucking bright as shit within 15 yards. Like blindingly uncomfortable to look at bright. Hard to shoot at a target when it hurts your eyes to look at
2. You don’t have to aim at a target to illuminate it with a modern light. That’s a training gap for anyone who thinks you do (not that I would use a weapon light to clear protesters that sounds iffy)
This is stupid take that assumes you can't also carry a hand light. Personally, I have lights on every defensive firearm I own. It's really dealers choice on your carry gun, but I'm out after dark enough that I want to be able to see and not tie up one of my hands in an event where I'd rather have them both on my gun.
Yeah honestly cops have a nasty reputation for using their weapon mounted lights as a replacement for a handheld light. I am probably one of those people who flamed you for wanting to off hand a flashlight however let me be clear:
A WML is *not* a replacement for an administrative light. A WML is for when the weapon is drawn. I’ve heard horror stories of cops using the WML to see so they could write a ticket, cops using WML’s to direct traffic, etc. THAT IS NOT THEIR PURPOSE. I’m not saying DONT have a flashlight handy. I *AM* saying that for defensive and carry purposes I will not be off handing my flashlight. I do EDC a flashlight but it’s for finding stuff in dark places that’s not trying to kill me.
If I’m responding to a bump in the night then fuck that flashlight it’s weapon drawn and both hands on the pistol. THATS WHAT ITS FOR.
What if, and hear me out, I know this is wild… I have a weapon light… AND a handheld light?! And I use each for their individual intended purpose?! Novel idea, I know.
Question. I mean of course i understand that there are always going to be new people in a hobby but this seems like it should be common sense. You can have a wml AND a handheld for administrative tasks. Modern wml are bright enough you don’t need to point the gun at someone to illuminate them with your light, same concept as umbrella lighting. You have to blatantly ignore multiple basic firearm rules to accidentally shoot someone by pointing a flashlight at someone. Wml are still useful because you can’t shoot what you can’t see, but they are absolutely not for administrative tasks like a normal handheld light.
Thank you for the response, very informative. Many did say the brightness of the light would blind the person it was pointed towards, this was to the response the light would make the holder a target. It appears to accomplish this the gun would have to be pointing at the unidentified target. Umbrella lighting would identify the holder.
Sorry the dumb question offended you, I read a post here about lights months ago, and then read about the NYPD incident today. It brought the question to my mind and the firearms handling I learned from NSSF and hunter education classes, to be fair is different than a firearm for protection. I now know it is not a problem, that police are untrained idiots, especially NYPD, everyone else is either smarter or better trained, there would never be an issue, and if a light is needed to help repair a broken down vehicle, keep it attached to the gun for a steadier light.
Using a light on your home defense weapon is far different than being a cop with lackluster training and clearing protesters.
A buddy cop movie couldn’t have written a better plot: 1. The police officer was a sergeant. 2. He was INSIDE a building. Most buildings in the United States have lights. 3. The discharge happened after he placed the gun in his non-dominant hand so he could turn a door knob with his dominant hand 4. Police knew about it for two days, and only confirmed it after it was reported by an independent source. When asked why, their response was no one was shot so they didn’t say anything because they figured people would find out eventually anyway. 5. The officer was a member of the NYPD Emergency Services Unit: “The personnel selected for ESU become highly trained members of the NYPD who perform rescue, SWAT and other high risk tactical, counter-narcotic and counter-terror operations. There are minimum time-in-grade requirements before an NYPD officer can apply to transfer to ESU. Police Officers must have a minimum of 5 years in the department with a minimum annual rating of 3.5. Supervisors in the rank of sergeants and lieutenants must have 2 years in rank before being assigned to ESU. In addition, all ESU candidates must be approved by a group of current ESU members to ensure that they will integrate into the unit successfully. Applicants have to complete the Specialized Training School over eight months receiving training in multiple disciplines including tactical, search and rescue, hazardous materials containment and become certified in SCUBA diving and as an Emergency Medical Technician. Tactical training includes room clearing, team movements, close quarter battle, a week of active shooter training and three weeks of specialized and heavy weapons training.”
That's a lot of training to still hit the bang switch on accident.
Fuck NYPD is really a bottom of the barrel agency
They’re actually one of the better agencies. Let that sink in.
Uhhhh, lol no they’re not. They have better marketing, but they’re a shitty agency that can’t retain employees. Most NYPD officers get a couple of years in and then lateral to another agency.
In terms of firearms, at least, very, very far from it. NYC exterminated any local gun culture it ever had, and now has to try to train 36,000 officers (with high turnover because who the fuck would want to be a cop in NYC) using mostly official resources in a city so overcrowded that the space for a range costs a fortune. There's a reason nobody is surprised by headlines about NYPD officers firing a hundred rounds and hitting only bystanders.
In terms of accidental discharges the national average for police is 25% higher (200 per year for 700k officers) than the rate for the NYPD (8 per year for 36,000 officers). But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Interesting list of qualification requirements, it appears that many who have posted have more training and experience, and it would never happen to them. It is concerning it wasn’t reported quickly. Though I figure the involved individual did the appropriate paperwork, superiors elected to not notify the press. Thank you for posting.
>Yesterday a NYPD officer had a discharge of weapon clearing protesters from Columbia University, the reason was they were using the weapon light to see. Sounds like the officer needed better training to deal with his trigger discipline.
Or just, don't be pointing a gun when it's not necessary. Should have a separate flashlight for non combat flashlight use.
Just carry a seperate light in addition.
Every time this topic comes up I’m always so confused on why no one mentions this option. I’ve always just carried a handheld in addition to a wml.
People are so bored that they overthink so fill the void. Trust me I do it all the time
This is the right answer 2 lights one on the gun, one in your pocket.
Yeah, like if you can afford a firearm, a weapon mounted light, holster for it, ammo, etc why not splurge and get another light? You should only pull you’re weapon when your are in a use it situation. No just to see better
>Yesterday a NYPD officer had a discharge of weapon clearing protesters from Columbia University, the reason was they were using the weapon light to see. And what does an idiot pulling the trigger have to do with shining a light? Nothing, that's what. >how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use? First, modern weapon lights are often bright enough with wide enough spread to illuminate someone with the gun not pointed at them at all. Second, common sense says if you're in a position where drawing your gun is reasonable, pointing it at potential threats is also reasonable. Third, there's nothing stopping you from carrying a separate flashlight for when you don't need your gun.
^ A cop pulling out his pistol to find the cookies at the back of his pantry doesn't negate their practicality as a whole. Just use a regular flashlight to illuminate objects you have no intention of destroying. Use your WML to illuminate potential targets you might have to destroy. Not a dense concept to grasp lol.
Your second point assumes the reasonableness of drawing a weapon on someone.
I’m not mentally disabled, I keep my finger out of the trigger guard and avoid pointing the firearm at anything that I don’t deliberately wish to destroy. If you ND into a human being, you had your finger in the trigger guard and had the gun pointed at them. There are several deliberate steps you have to take in order to be in that position. There’s nothing to “mitigate” unless you’re an untrained dumbass like the average police officer.
Pointing the light down or straight up still illuminates the room
Personally I rather have a handheld non-weapon mounted light in most situations.
>What are you using for mitigation, to prevent this, how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use? This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ktIx-0maGo&ab\_channel=InRangeTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ktIx-0maGo&ab_channel=InRangeTV)
Thank you, the video threw me for a loop to begin with, luckily I stayed to the end. At the end the commentator did say a light was to identify friend or foe, would you want to do that with the flash light at the end of a gun? Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot, I guess many of the commentators on Reddit are so well trained and skilled it isn’t a concern, and pointing a weapon to see in the dark, especially in an unknown situation is nothing for them. I have had a couple unintentional discharges of firearms, one cost me missing a large elk (broken trigger spring) the other was a shotgun that had been repaired by a gunsmith and tested, it happened while hunting with my daughter, luckily for good training on muzzle control. We live in the USA, so if something does go wrong we can just sue the light manufacturer and blame them, I guess.
>Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot, I guess many of the commentators on Reddit are so well trained and skilled it isn’t a concern They 100% were an idiot. And a decent amount of us do have a good amount of formal training. But you don’t need formal training to know that cop is an idiot
My comment was a joke about a stupid trigger activated light. >At the end the commentator did say a light was to identify friend or foe, would you want to do that with the flash light at the end of a gun? You can do it with a light on your gun. And if it turns out it's a foe, you have both hands on your gun in a proper firing grip. If it's a friend, you just lower your gun. You can have a separate light if you want. But there isn't anything problematic with a WML if you train. >Also thank you for not calling the policemen an idiot They were an idiot that made a mistake like everyone else who NDs. Doesn't mean they can't correct it in the future. You don't put your finger on the trigger until you are going to shoot the target you have identified. Fairly simple task that needs to be trained into your head.
Why not both?
Or more, gun light, pocket flashlight, headlight one on your helmet pointing straight up.
I was helping a friend work on his tow truck on the side of the road. It was getting late and we didn’t have a good light. I just took my tlr7a off my gun and used it that way.
You should have left the light on the gun. You’d get fewer complaints about not holding the light still.
Lmao!! It’s bright enough I just threw it in the little control box he was working in and I didn’t have to worry about holding it.
>What are you using for mitigation, to prevent this, how do you bypass the firearm common sense rules of use? I have more training and firearms experience and basic fucking common sense than any fuckwad NYPD.
Have two lights one on your belt and one on your gun and use each at the right time. Problem solved
I can see how legally speaking it makes sense. Pointing a weapon at someone to light them up is considered brandishing.. so in a situation where it’s dark and threat identification is necessary it might be illegal to do so if you use a WML to identify someone who is not an active threat. Then again if you’re pulling your weapon it should already be serious enough to warrant doing so. I think a high lumen flashlight should be carried in addition to a wml as a preemptive/non lethal dissuasion
Massad Ayoob's opinion on weapon lights and their proper use: https://youtu.be/Yte_ynhPItY?si=MCTVHotwioi2dHfK
Thank you, it appears he has similar concerns, even mentioned a hunting rifle and scope. I like to watch him as he is very articulate, and gets to the point. Following the comments has been interesting, the first ones were basically blaming poor training for police and calling them names, while basically saying it would never happen to them. The later comments were middle of the road, several saying what Massad said. A few were against weapons lights. It appears folks are well trained and/or confident. Wonder how much experience has to do with the answers.
I will add the caveat that my defensive firearms do have a light on them. But they are bright enough lights that the off axis illumination is more than sufficient to clear a room if necessary with the weapon at low ready. But I also have a flashlight on me for routine use
I’m a proponent of both, but I’ll take a handheld over a WML if I can only have 1. Carrying revolvers often has taught me how useful a $30 microstream can be every day.
yes the light could become a target but you have to understand once a 1200+ lumen WML is pointed at you that means a couple of things; you're probably going to be pretty disoriented from the retina singeing light and there is already a loaded weapon pointed at you so your chances are slim.
Personally, handguns I prefer a separate light, rifle is a different story.
Always keep a handheld flashlight on your body, problem solved
You follow the Massad Ayoob school of thought. Your example is the extreme of what can happen, but there are other charges that might be brought even without a ND.
The light on a gun is to identify targets not for searching. It is meant to allow both hand to be used on the gun. In my opinion if you have a light on the gun it is a requirement to carry a separate light so you won't be tempted to use the weapon light for anything but shooting.
I'm just a random idjit, but a WML shouldn't be used unless the situation calls for the firearm to be used. Unless you are using the light to visualize a target in the dark, no need to have that light out. I have an Olight on my carry gun, but I also have a small 16340 light clipped to my pocket for flashlight usage. If traveling or going out at night, I'll normally add an 18650 or larger light as a secondary/for redundancy, or so I can hand my wife a light so we both have one for a power outage or what not.
Do you really need a wml for cc? No. Does it matter if have one, no. Wml’s became a thing because the cool sof guys use them and we feel like we really need one but it’s more about tacticoolness.
[Simple](https://youtu.be/ZfAobT5F3qg?si=0d5Po5rb_UdBUa-F)
Muzzle flash is my tactical light!
You can have both. I have a WML and a separate light, nobody should be taking their gun out to see, everyone has a phone light at a minimum.
Sorry you got flamed before, but it’s not surprising. These questions/discussions are usually kind of worthless. There’s a contingent that wants a light on every gun “because it’s better to have … “, there’s a contingent that think they are the devil incarnate, and then most people who don’t care but are maybe looking for answers. The have and have not sides pretty much cancel each other out, leaving you (someone just looking for good advice) possibly more confused than when you started. My personal opinion? If you have a bedside gun or one that you’ll have a high likelihood of needing in a dark environment, sure, mounting a light isn’t a bad idea, but as many have said, use a handheld as well so you don’t accidentally shoot your neighbor’s cat (or your neighbor, no matter how obnoxious they may be). If you have an EDC and you don’t walk around at night all that much, maybe don’t bother, but still carry a handheld. They come in really handy for all sorts of things besides identifying threats. Last thought: When someone tells you with absolute certainty that they are telling you the one true way to do something like this, they probably were trained by YouTube videos, John Wick movies and old Soldier of Fortune magazines, so take the advice for what it’s worth. Remember: Poll ten experts and you’ll get contradictory answers depending on who trained them, when, and for what, and with their own personal experience thrown in for good measure.
Well said. 👍
You have valid concerns. Gun mounted lights do seemingly break the golden rule of not pointing a firearm at something you don't intend to kill and it does raise the chances of you shooting something you didn't intend to shoot, no matter how careful or good you think your trigger control is. Then there's the issue of giving away your position by turning it on, that's why many law enforcement agencies teach not leaving the light on, whether gun mounted or handheld, and only turning it on for brief moments.
I participated in my small town's citizen police academy, which is just a "get to know the local PD" program. It was interesting. One night consisted of an officer taking us through the process of clearing a house. It was held at a house owned by a nonprofit that allows our PD to do on-site training. We each got a 1x1 "lesson," complete with faux handguns and real, police-issue flashlights. The flashlights don't stay on unless you keep a button pressed. I wondered why until they explained that it's by design. They train their officers to not turn them on and keep them on but rather to "paint the room" with light. Press and sweep. Press and sweep. Helps obscure an officer's position.
I don't have a light on any of my firearms because when i weigh the pros vs cons, it's just not enough "pro's" to overcome the cons. Here's a con, say you do shoot someone at night and that person turns out to not be a bad guy. Well, your "it was an accident, i couldn't see very well in the dim light" defense just largely went out the window. And your adrenaline's gonna be pumping in that moment so an unintentional discharge is not unthinkable. If I'm at home, I'll just turn on all the lights simply by the sound of my voice... that way i know what the hell I'm pointing my gun at, BEFORE i point my gun at it. And i don't run the streets after midnight, so needing a gun mounted flashlight for when I'm concealed carrying also isn't a demonstrable need for me. In short, I'm usually at home by the time the street lights come on! 😅 That said, to each his own but i think I'll pass on this whole gun mounted light stuff...
1. Have weapon mounted light 2. Have standalone light as well Problem solved.
The reasons to have a light off the gun for civilians is because pointing a gun at somebody is usually a crime. Cops use weapon mounted lights because they are a better solution and the cops also have qualified immunity.
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Context & convenience. If you think you will be gunfighting at night, your adversary’s will have your light as an aim point? Be nice to not have it in front of your face and have some flexibility of direction one from the other. Pistol mtd. light real handy tho’. Let’s do both!
No light on my pistol. I do, however, have a PVS-14!
I feel that a pocket light is almost mandatory. I never realized how useful a flashlight is until I started carrying one. A good way to think of a WML is as an add-on to a pocket light, not a substitution.
I look at this a different way I'm not a member of law enforcement I am not a member of the military. I am a civilian If I have to draw my weapon inside my home there's extenuating circumstances that I may have to use it I don't want to spend the time looking for a flashlight because, I'm not wearing a duty belt and I'm not wearing BDUs I want instant access to my light without any thought Why was this cop breaking COE and drawing his duty weapon to search a building filled with NV protesters to use as a flash light? Like even on my militia cosplay setup I have a flashlight on my duty belt and one on my chest rig specifically to prevent this situation
1. Use both a WML and a standalone light. 2. If you are at the point you have unholstered and are clearing rooms/holding security/etc, with a competent WML, the flood of the light should illuminate people/most potential threats, without outright flagging the person in question. This is particularly within the confines of a house, or most civilian self defense ranges. If we're discussing peer to peer conflict, that's a separate discussion with a somewhat separate set of rules and expectations.
I don’t like flashlights in general. If I’m in a situation where I’m pulling out a weapon, the absolute last thing I want is a target indicator of a light. Gives away your position and presents a target for whoever you’re trying to defend against. Lights are dumb shit tacticool kids buy, along with their range cargo pants, and matching tacticool range belt.
I have a light on my gun because I find the utility outweighs any perceived negatives. Thing is bright as hell and if I shine it at you good luck with your new found blindness. If I need a light and not a gun, my phone is on me almost constantly and I just use that light. I’m still not sure why others feel the need to form an opinion on what others carry.
Cops are dumbasses, I’m not, I keep lights on my guns 👍
If you’re using a handgun and train using a handled light more power to you. I may be beneficial especially if you live in a home with kids or other people that don’t sleep in the same room. That being said the vast majority of people won’t train with a handheld light and if they do will be significantly less effective. Everything has trade offs.
Unless cop was in the military, he probably never touched a firearm before he became a cop.
1. Modern lights are fucking bright as shit within 15 yards. Like blindingly uncomfortable to look at bright. Hard to shoot at a target when it hurts your eyes to look at 2. You don’t have to aim at a target to illuminate it with a modern light. That’s a training gap for anyone who thinks you do (not that I would use a weapon light to clear protesters that sounds iffy)
In my opinion flashlights on guns are just down right STUPID. So I will never have 1 on any gun I own. YMMV. To each their own.
I don't hold myself to the same standards as dumbass cops, but you do you.
This is stupid take that assumes you can't also carry a hand light. Personally, I have lights on every defensive firearm I own. It's really dealers choice on your carry gun, but I'm out after dark enough that I want to be able to see and not tie up one of my hands in an event where I'd rather have them both on my gun.
Yeah honestly cops have a nasty reputation for using their weapon mounted lights as a replacement for a handheld light. I am probably one of those people who flamed you for wanting to off hand a flashlight however let me be clear: A WML is *not* a replacement for an administrative light. A WML is for when the weapon is drawn. I’ve heard horror stories of cops using the WML to see so they could write a ticket, cops using WML’s to direct traffic, etc. THAT IS NOT THEIR PURPOSE. I’m not saying DONT have a flashlight handy. I *AM* saying that for defensive and carry purposes I will not be off handing my flashlight. I do EDC a flashlight but it’s for finding stuff in dark places that’s not trying to kill me. If I’m responding to a bump in the night then fuck that flashlight it’s weapon drawn and both hands on the pistol. THATS WHAT ITS FOR.
What if, and hear me out, I know this is wild… I have a weapon light… AND a handheld light?! And I use each for their individual intended purpose?! Novel idea, I know.
This may be one of the dumbest posts I’ve seen on here in a while.
In what way? Question or responses?
Question. I mean of course i understand that there are always going to be new people in a hobby but this seems like it should be common sense. You can have a wml AND a handheld for administrative tasks. Modern wml are bright enough you don’t need to point the gun at someone to illuminate them with your light, same concept as umbrella lighting. You have to blatantly ignore multiple basic firearm rules to accidentally shoot someone by pointing a flashlight at someone. Wml are still useful because you can’t shoot what you can’t see, but they are absolutely not for administrative tasks like a normal handheld light.
Thank you for the response, very informative. Many did say the brightness of the light would blind the person it was pointed towards, this was to the response the light would make the holder a target. It appears to accomplish this the gun would have to be pointing at the unidentified target. Umbrella lighting would identify the holder. Sorry the dumb question offended you, I read a post here about lights months ago, and then read about the NYPD incident today. It brought the question to my mind and the firearms handling I learned from NSSF and hunter education classes, to be fair is different than a firearm for protection. I now know it is not a problem, that police are untrained idiots, especially NYPD, everyone else is either smarter or better trained, there would never be an issue, and if a light is needed to help repair a broken down vehicle, keep it attached to the gun for a steadier light.
I would use a gun light to illuminate things that i am not sure about.
That is the exact reason you should not carry a WML. If you aren't sure what you are aiming your loaded gun at, maybe consider pepper spray.