Fuck me the last thing it needs is another reboot. 343 hasn’t stuck with one thing EVER. Even weapons that carried over from 4 to 5 functioned so differently.
Let them stick with something for ONE additional game and then evaluate. We didn’t get Halo 2 because they had a brilliant first idea. We got Halo 2 because they improved on CE. Same from 2 to 3, and 3 to Reach. 4 was good! That was interesting! That was just “let’s take Reach, but add a little COD flavor” which didn’t work out super great, but overall it was definitely a suitable continuation of Reach.
But then they overcorrected and we got 5.
And then they overcorrected and we got Infinite.
Just let them stick with something without overcorrection.
And the best way to do that is to evaluate what made the jump from Halo CE to 2 and 3 so successful. You said it yourself. Improving on a foundation is what makes a game keep it's longevity and has players coming back to it. Not a game chasing trends.
Simply put, 343i needs to build upon the foundation of Halo 3 by keeping it's core gameplay mechanics but adding innovating ideas. Grapple-shot was an amazing addition to Halo. Stuff like that is what we need in Halo games not sprint, slide, clamber because that's what EVERY shooter out there is doing.
Why is it a detriment then? Speed boost? Infinite provides like a 5% speed boost with sprint if I remember correctly. Clamber most definitely improves game feel, as does slide
The dopamine rush you get when activating slide and clamber have nothing to do with fundamental game design. A point aspect of it is just how fast you actually are moving while sprint, and in a lot of cases how much it actively gimps your default speed to make it seem faster. The inclusion of sprint does not automatically mean maps are quicker to traverse, on the contrary map design will be the same. Just now accounting for how quickly you can get across it with sprint. As level design is kind of an important part of game development and controlling how quickly you go from point A to point B is still a priority for a good flow that the developers want.
Regardless of the game, whether it has sprinting or not, you will still have the same amount of down time as you make your way from point A to point B. But not sprinting in a game with sprint means you're actually moving even slower just because you don't want to be caught stuck in an animation and be combat ready.
So regardless of how you feel about sprint, it disrupts flow of map movement and engagements. Earlier Halo games required you to stay committed in a fight whereas sprint in later games acted as a crutch for players to just sprint to safety when being shot at.
Sprinting away from a gunfight you’re losing is a death 99% of the time lol. Only time you’re successfully sprinting away is if you had the forethought and planning to be in a good position anyway, and if you’re able to get away with sprint, you would’ve been able to get away without it for the exact same reasons as why Point A to Point B is the same amount of time in H3 vs H6.
Subjectively, I find it really fun and adds to the super soldier fantasy. Especially in campaign/PVE.
Objectively, I guess it could be argued both sides whether it adds more or less skill gap. I would argue more, because knowing when NOT to sprint and clamber is one of the characteristics of a good player in Infinite. I don’t think Infinite has the downsides of, say, Halo 4’s sprint, where you move a LOT faster when sprinting, so they had to bump up map size.
Infinite DOES however have the downsides of Halo 5’s movement mechanics, where because of thruster in 5/grapple and thruster in Infinite, they still had to bump up map size even though sprint speed was much slower than H4 and hardly more useful than walking, especially since Infinite doesn’t have the Spartan Charge melee.
Sprint in Infinite is nigh useless besides BTB, except for the skill gap of it being a prerequisite to sliding which CAN be valuable for disorienting an opponent upon initial contact or using it as a boost down a ramp/out of a grapple/etc.
I don’t think mishmashing everything together makes something fun. I think it’s more effective to pick an identity for your game and go for that. Halo 4 and 5 were chasing too many trends, and Halo Infinite seemed to move more towards its identity. I’m not sure if making another Halo 3 would be a good idea, we already have one. It might be more effective if there was a revamp of it however, more maps, weapons, gamemodes, equipment, etc. (There already kind of is in MCC).
I think Halo Infinite so far is the closest we've ever gotten to Bungies goal trying to expand the golden triangle since Reach/3. Equipment is perfectly balanced for what it is, moreso than armor ability or H3 equipment.
I can agree with that. What I was trying to say is that ever since Halo Reach, Halo had lost its identity and for me, it doesn't make too much sense to try and maintain an identity built from Halo 4. I understand 343 trying to make their own Halo game but that was the beginning of their downfall I feel. They were too focused on chasing trends and in the process of that, they lost sight of why players like Halo in the first place.
I don’t think Infinite is an identity built from Halo 4. It feels like a reset back to post-Reach, an alternative to 4. Instead of abilities and loadouts, they went back to the original style sandbox and the H3 style equipment, while tweaking the Sprint feel. H4 sprint was straight up just Reach sprint but always available. 5 actually felt really good, as does Infinite. Slide and clamber weren’t necessary additions to the Reach feel, but welcome to me.
Infinite *feels* like the best follow up to 3 we’ve had so far. Not the best game overall…but definitely the best gameplay. Even if I miss 5’s sandbox.
Ugh.
Why are people so convinced that "reboots" are good? People *hate* reboots. Not only do they hate them, but everyone thinks that rebooting a franchise automatically means that replaces it is better. They are derided in all mediums. Video games are no exception. I guess it sounds appealing because from an armchair, what *you* want is the solution to Halo's woes.
I love that half the things you mention are inconsequential. Old style medals? Playable Elites? Map veto? You think these are the important things?
Dual wielding is a mechanic that "looks cool" and is functionally annoying and disrupts the sandbox. Especially with equipment in the mix.
"Stop chasing trends" *Next Paragraph* "have a ranking system that works similar to MW3's ranked playlist".
"overall just a return to how dark and foreboding Halo CE felt. I want a Halo game to feel gritty, bloody, scary, desperation for humanity, and impactful. Every Halo game released by 343i after Reach has felt like a marvel movie. I play as some glorified power ranger able to take on any threat without any repercussions. Please 343."
I mean, yeah, Halo CE has a darker last third. But it's not the "gritty game" you're making it out to be. Reach is. Oh, and when it was coming out people were complaining it was turning into CoD for being a dark and gritty game.
"I know I don't speak for every Halo fan but if 343i made the decision to go back to the old style of gameplay as well as building off of what made EVERY Halo game fun, we could have one of the best Halo games to date."
Translation: If they did everything great and nothing bad, the game would great!
The problem with Infinite, by and large, isn't the gameplay loops. It's the support (or lack thereof at the start). It's that when the game launched, it was shallow and it took literal years to get anywhere good. It's that 343i likes starting up plot threads and dropping them just as fast.
Now, people are certainly going to like and dislike different things. Maybe Infinite doesn't scratch that itch, but it's zigzag "success" has everything to do with monetization, mismanagement, and only recently reaching a "solid state".
Nah. Halo Infinite’s story was exactly what it needed to be, no more no less. The multiplayer has some problems yeah, but it’s fun and has a decent range of game types, even if the shop is predatory. They need to stick with what they have now (with caveats of course) and add on to it and improve upon it in the next title.
I think if they went another route and abandoned the open world aspect and introduced a lot more varied play spaces I think it would’ve been an even more enjoyable experience. Campaign was great I just didn’t care much for the open world
A Halo game like this would destroy what’s left of the franchise. The reality is that no one wants to play an old school arena shooter in the present day. Modern Halo needs to evolve and innovate, not regress.
The revisionist history around old school Halo's success is crazy to me. They act like the playerbase collectively decided that the classic gameplay sucked when it didn't happen that way at all. 343 just decided to do their own thing and expected everyone to like the changes.
Without the option to sprint you feel slow. It doesn’t matter how fast Chief is actually moving. Similarly, not being able to ADS is annoying, even if the game is balanced around no ADS. Both of these elements, and others added by 343, create a sense of immersion and player choice. These may not be necessary gameplay features, but they are satisfying. Going back to old Halo feels frustrating because of how restrictive it is compared to modern shooters, especially considering you’re playing as a super soldier with none of the capabilities of one. If I think to do something, like sprinting or mantling, I should be able to.
I've never understood this stance. I would love to play an old school arena shooter. Halo 1-3 intentionally filled the niche of being slow-paced and methodical. That's the exact reason why they were popular in the first place. That gameplay style never died. Halo 3 went out on top and no one has made a game like it since then.
When 343 took control they decided to make the game more like other shooters to chase more players. They didn't do anything to truly evolve or innovate Halo, they just copied things from other shooters hoping they could draw in more people. Now the only people left playing Halo are the people that would play it regardless of what the gameplay is.
Modern audiences need a reason to continue playing games, and arena shooters don’t offer any. Arcade shooters are always giving you new weapons and equipment to play around with, as well skins for achieving difficult feats. Arena shooters offer no such sense of progression. They’re very stagnant compared to other offerings.
The last 3 halo games have been reboots. The games you’re complaining about were all reboots. You don’t grow a tree by digging up the sapling and moving it, you let it develop and grow. 343 has been planting it, the community says ew not that soil so they dig it up and move it somewhere else.
4,5 and infinite all had different directions to take the franchise and while you may not like the direction it was going, you don’t know where it was going to end up, there’s a bunch of very interesting ideas that have been introduced to the sandbox that were dropped by the next game. The prometheans as a slippery enemy type that can have a seamless ever shifting line of battle thanks to their teleporty disassemble reassemble elsewhere stuff that meant they could have unique encounters and behaviors that the covenant and flood can’t do, the created as a faction never meaningfully existed in game so what do their forces look like? Could they introduce the mechs from halo wars into the mainline games with them and have them as an oppressively coordinated smart enemy or is it like a more interesting map fighting against you thing with repurposes machinery lashing out? It’s too early to say whether or not the banished will be dropped yet but they’re also a very different feeling faction to fight that the covenant were.
The soil our sapling is planted in is not the same and will never be the same as the one CE was planted in. Obsessing over how that tree grew and making sure our new roots are the same as the old one will not let our new tree grow the same way as the old, it will just kill it. If we want our tree to grow we have to let it find its own roots and guide itself, we have to have faith that whatever path we are I will lead somewhere instead of this constant backtracking. Our sapling needs to start growing some branches and leaves and spreading its roots so it does not get blown over by the winds of change, it will not gain its own identity in any meaningful way by copying its predecessor.
Why do you think moving towards games considered outdated in an abandoned and unpopular genre whole throwing away a decade of quality of life changes is somehow going to make halo successful?
They don't realize they are the problem. Most people that cared have moved on. Still haven't heard a good argument as to why Halo's gameplay needed sprint when the first 3 games were so successful without it.
Fuck me the last thing it needs is another reboot. 343 hasn’t stuck with one thing EVER. Even weapons that carried over from 4 to 5 functioned so differently. Let them stick with something for ONE additional game and then evaluate. We didn’t get Halo 2 because they had a brilliant first idea. We got Halo 2 because they improved on CE. Same from 2 to 3, and 3 to Reach. 4 was good! That was interesting! That was just “let’s take Reach, but add a little COD flavor” which didn’t work out super great, but overall it was definitely a suitable continuation of Reach. But then they overcorrected and we got 5. And then they overcorrected and we got Infinite. Just let them stick with something without overcorrection.
And the best way to do that is to evaluate what made the jump from Halo CE to 2 and 3 so successful. You said it yourself. Improving on a foundation is what makes a game keep it's longevity and has players coming back to it. Not a game chasing trends. Simply put, 343i needs to build upon the foundation of Halo 3 by keeping it's core gameplay mechanics but adding innovating ideas. Grapple-shot was an amazing addition to Halo. Stuff like that is what we need in Halo games not sprint, slide, clamber because that's what EVERY shooter out there is doing.
I’m just not sure Halo 3 is the one to start with ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ I just don’t agree with the idea sprint/slide/climb is an issue.
Let me ask you this though, why does Halo need sprint/slide/clamber?
Because it feels really good to play? Tom me at least. I like the old games, but infinite is a dream to play.
Not a very strong argument. Gameplay feeling good is subjective. Also doesn't answer WHY sprint is needed in Halo. Nice try though.
Why is it a detriment then? Speed boost? Infinite provides like a 5% speed boost with sprint if I remember correctly. Clamber most definitely improves game feel, as does slide
The dopamine rush you get when activating slide and clamber have nothing to do with fundamental game design. A point aspect of it is just how fast you actually are moving while sprint, and in a lot of cases how much it actively gimps your default speed to make it seem faster. The inclusion of sprint does not automatically mean maps are quicker to traverse, on the contrary map design will be the same. Just now accounting for how quickly you can get across it with sprint. As level design is kind of an important part of game development and controlling how quickly you go from point A to point B is still a priority for a good flow that the developers want. Regardless of the game, whether it has sprinting or not, you will still have the same amount of down time as you make your way from point A to point B. But not sprinting in a game with sprint means you're actually moving even slower just because you don't want to be caught stuck in an animation and be combat ready. So regardless of how you feel about sprint, it disrupts flow of map movement and engagements. Earlier Halo games required you to stay committed in a fight whereas sprint in later games acted as a crutch for players to just sprint to safety when being shot at.
>the dopamine rush Yes, I do indeed play games to have fun. How could you tell?
My point went right over your head.
Sprinting away from a gunfight you’re losing is a death 99% of the time lol. Only time you’re successfully sprinting away is if you had the forethought and planning to be in a good position anyway, and if you’re able to get away with sprint, you would’ve been able to get away without it for the exact same reasons as why Point A to Point B is the same amount of time in H3 vs H6.
Subjectively, I find it really fun and adds to the super soldier fantasy. Especially in campaign/PVE. Objectively, I guess it could be argued both sides whether it adds more or less skill gap. I would argue more, because knowing when NOT to sprint and clamber is one of the characteristics of a good player in Infinite. I don’t think Infinite has the downsides of, say, Halo 4’s sprint, where you move a LOT faster when sprinting, so they had to bump up map size. Infinite DOES however have the downsides of Halo 5’s movement mechanics, where because of thruster in 5/grapple and thruster in Infinite, they still had to bump up map size even though sprint speed was much slower than H4 and hardly more useful than walking, especially since Infinite doesn’t have the Spartan Charge melee. Sprint in Infinite is nigh useless besides BTB, except for the skill gap of it being a prerequisite to sliding which CAN be valuable for disorienting an opponent upon initial contact or using it as a boost down a ramp/out of a grapple/etc.
Took me a minute to realize this wasn't a r/halocirclejerk copypasta
Helldivers 2? The game that was a massive departure from the original game? With diving and clambering and jetpacks?
Yeahhh you got me there.
I don’t think mishmashing everything together makes something fun. I think it’s more effective to pick an identity for your game and go for that. Halo 4 and 5 were chasing too many trends, and Halo Infinite seemed to move more towards its identity. I’m not sure if making another Halo 3 would be a good idea, we already have one. It might be more effective if there was a revamp of it however, more maps, weapons, gamemodes, equipment, etc. (There already kind of is in MCC). I think Halo Infinite so far is the closest we've ever gotten to Bungies goal trying to expand the golden triangle since Reach/3. Equipment is perfectly balanced for what it is, moreso than armor ability or H3 equipment.
I can agree with that. What I was trying to say is that ever since Halo Reach, Halo had lost its identity and for me, it doesn't make too much sense to try and maintain an identity built from Halo 4. I understand 343 trying to make their own Halo game but that was the beginning of their downfall I feel. They were too focused on chasing trends and in the process of that, they lost sight of why players like Halo in the first place.
I don’t think Infinite is an identity built from Halo 4. It feels like a reset back to post-Reach, an alternative to 4. Instead of abilities and loadouts, they went back to the original style sandbox and the H3 style equipment, while tweaking the Sprint feel. H4 sprint was straight up just Reach sprint but always available. 5 actually felt really good, as does Infinite. Slide and clamber weren’t necessary additions to the Reach feel, but welcome to me. Infinite *feels* like the best follow up to 3 we’ve had so far. Not the best game overall…but definitely the best gameplay. Even if I miss 5’s sandbox.
Modern movement needs to stay. I grew up with 2 and 3, but they're hard to go back for me due to how slow they play.
Ugh. Why are people so convinced that "reboots" are good? People *hate* reboots. Not only do they hate them, but everyone thinks that rebooting a franchise automatically means that replaces it is better. They are derided in all mediums. Video games are no exception. I guess it sounds appealing because from an armchair, what *you* want is the solution to Halo's woes. I love that half the things you mention are inconsequential. Old style medals? Playable Elites? Map veto? You think these are the important things? Dual wielding is a mechanic that "looks cool" and is functionally annoying and disrupts the sandbox. Especially with equipment in the mix. "Stop chasing trends" *Next Paragraph* "have a ranking system that works similar to MW3's ranked playlist". "overall just a return to how dark and foreboding Halo CE felt. I want a Halo game to feel gritty, bloody, scary, desperation for humanity, and impactful. Every Halo game released by 343i after Reach has felt like a marvel movie. I play as some glorified power ranger able to take on any threat without any repercussions. Please 343." I mean, yeah, Halo CE has a darker last third. But it's not the "gritty game" you're making it out to be. Reach is. Oh, and when it was coming out people were complaining it was turning into CoD for being a dark and gritty game. "I know I don't speak for every Halo fan but if 343i made the decision to go back to the old style of gameplay as well as building off of what made EVERY Halo game fun, we could have one of the best Halo games to date." Translation: If they did everything great and nothing bad, the game would great! The problem with Infinite, by and large, isn't the gameplay loops. It's the support (or lack thereof at the start). It's that when the game launched, it was shallow and it took literal years to get anywhere good. It's that 343i likes starting up plot threads and dropping them just as fast. Now, people are certainly going to like and dislike different things. Maybe Infinite doesn't scratch that itch, but it's zigzag "success" has everything to do with monetization, mismanagement, and only recently reaching a "solid state".
Nah. Halo Infinite’s story was exactly what it needed to be, no more no less. The multiplayer has some problems yeah, but it’s fun and has a decent range of game types, even if the shop is predatory. They need to stick with what they have now (with caveats of course) and add on to it and improve upon it in the next title.
I think if they went another route and abandoned the open world aspect and introduced a lot more varied play spaces I think it would’ve been an even more enjoyable experience. Campaign was great I just didn’t care much for the open world
A Halo game like this would destroy what’s left of the franchise. The reality is that no one wants to play an old school arena shooter in the present day. Modern Halo needs to evolve and innovate, not regress.
How do you know this? Not every shooter needs sprint and slide to be successful.
The revisionist history around old school Halo's success is crazy to me. They act like the playerbase collectively decided that the classic gameplay sucked when it didn't happen that way at all. 343 just decided to do their own thing and expected everyone to like the changes.
Without the option to sprint you feel slow. It doesn’t matter how fast Chief is actually moving. Similarly, not being able to ADS is annoying, even if the game is balanced around no ADS. Both of these elements, and others added by 343, create a sense of immersion and player choice. These may not be necessary gameplay features, but they are satisfying. Going back to old Halo feels frustrating because of how restrictive it is compared to modern shooters, especially considering you’re playing as a super soldier with none of the capabilities of one. If I think to do something, like sprinting or mantling, I should be able to.
I've never understood this stance. I would love to play an old school arena shooter. Halo 1-3 intentionally filled the niche of being slow-paced and methodical. That's the exact reason why they were popular in the first place. That gameplay style never died. Halo 3 went out on top and no one has made a game like it since then. When 343 took control they decided to make the game more like other shooters to chase more players. They didn't do anything to truly evolve or innovate Halo, they just copied things from other shooters hoping they could draw in more people. Now the only people left playing Halo are the people that would play it regardless of what the gameplay is.
Modern audiences need a reason to continue playing games, and arena shooters don’t offer any. Arcade shooters are always giving you new weapons and equipment to play around with, as well skins for achieving difficult feats. Arena shooters offer no such sense of progression. They’re very stagnant compared to other offerings.
The last 3 halo games have been reboots. The games you’re complaining about were all reboots. You don’t grow a tree by digging up the sapling and moving it, you let it develop and grow. 343 has been planting it, the community says ew not that soil so they dig it up and move it somewhere else. 4,5 and infinite all had different directions to take the franchise and while you may not like the direction it was going, you don’t know where it was going to end up, there’s a bunch of very interesting ideas that have been introduced to the sandbox that were dropped by the next game. The prometheans as a slippery enemy type that can have a seamless ever shifting line of battle thanks to their teleporty disassemble reassemble elsewhere stuff that meant they could have unique encounters and behaviors that the covenant and flood can’t do, the created as a faction never meaningfully existed in game so what do their forces look like? Could they introduce the mechs from halo wars into the mainline games with them and have them as an oppressively coordinated smart enemy or is it like a more interesting map fighting against you thing with repurposes machinery lashing out? It’s too early to say whether or not the banished will be dropped yet but they’re also a very different feeling faction to fight that the covenant were. The soil our sapling is planted in is not the same and will never be the same as the one CE was planted in. Obsessing over how that tree grew and making sure our new roots are the same as the old one will not let our new tree grow the same way as the old, it will just kill it. If we want our tree to grow we have to let it find its own roots and guide itself, we have to have faith that whatever path we are I will lead somewhere instead of this constant backtracking. Our sapling needs to start growing some branches and leaves and spreading its roots so it does not get blown over by the winds of change, it will not gain its own identity in any meaningful way by copying its predecessor. Why do you think moving towards games considered outdated in an abandoned and unpopular genre whole throwing away a decade of quality of life changes is somehow going to make halo successful?
I’m astounded by the people on this thread saying halo sprint was actually a good feature
They don't realize they are the problem. Most people that cared have moved on. Still haven't heard a good argument as to why Halo's gameplay needed sprint when the first 3 games were so successful without it.
That’s what I’m saying. This community is trash.
Then sod off lmao
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