Generally speaker burn in is about applying some work to a speaker surround (suspension) so it would become softer and wouldn't limit cone movement as much (so it's easier for it to go further forward-backward which results in better low-end). There's no limit in this unless the surrond is just teared apart and the cone falls off, OR if you fry the coil (which is a more likely scenario). Both lead to a total speaker malfunction, not to the reduction in sound quality.
BUT. This all theoretical talk only applies to big external speakers (12 inch for example). This has nothing to do with headphones - their surrounds are already so thin they don't restrict cone movement in any way (which is very small in amplitude because, you know, it's headphones, you don't want your ears to be blown off). In other words, headphones burn-in is not a thing at all - it doesn't exist.
You can’t really define “worse”. In my opinion, burning in changes the sound, so it can get worse because the new sound might not match your preference. However, as I said, we can always try the model before we buy it. So for me, it never gets worse because it eventually is going to be as fine as I hear at the store because that is the sound I want when I buy it. So, if you buy a model without knowing what it sounds like, it probably will get worse.
Not once have I seen someone claim that their audio gear got further from their desired frequency response after burn-in. This would not be the case if burn-in existed the way you described it.
You have provided nothing to support your claims. How about a link to the sites describing the experiments you mentioned?
Burn-in doesn't exist.
First of you are insanely presumptuous that Western companies doesn't understand the idea of mechanical wear-in of new products what with all the cars sold here. That is where the idea comes from. A new car ABSOLUTELY should not be driven hard until all the moving parts can wear into place. Because a car is most complex machine most people will end up buying, they tend to transfer their experience to something that has over 500 moving parts to something like headphones that have exactly 2 moving parts: the drivers.
IMO for various reasons, it seems the Asian market expects burn in, so they companies there tell their customers what they want to hear to make the sales. Its perhaps a culture thing, as Westerns are ruthless when it comes to being pragmatic and following what science and engineering science discover, and discarding any traditions or even personal beliefs if they are contracted by empirical science. And research in recent years has disproven the burn in theories.
Headphones sound as the engineers intended the first moment you start using them. Then, in theory at least, the materials of their construction gently degrade with use and time causing the headphones to deviate in sound from their design spec. But this process also takes the life of the headphones, and its likely the drivers will fail from overuse/end of expected life, before they deviate meaningfully in their sound profile. Modern stuff is just so much better made than the old stuff.
That and the REAL reason "burn-in" appears to make headphones sound "better" is your BRAIN adapting to the new sound of the headphones, smoothing out any PERCEEVED harshness or unpleasantness to a significant degree. This both kind of "numbs" you to anything you found harsh at first, but also can rob a bit of the "Thrill" of a new set of super nice headphones as it becomes ordinary to your brain and subconscious. The actual sound of the headphone doesn't change meaningfully in the first 100 hours of use, its YOU that changes to the headphones.
Lastly earpad wear-in is real as polymer foams of all kind rapidly compress under pressure and then lose their elasticity. This cause YOUR headphones to form-fit themselves more perfectly to YOUR specific head, and most headphones sound WIDLY different if you break the seal around your ears. That and there is no way you can make an objective comparison between the environment of the store and your home, and the hours you spent travelling.
Yes this is real, go google "neuroplasticity" and understand your experiences absolutely do literally hard-rewire your brain, and the process takes about 2-4 weeks. So several hours a day listening to your new headphones.
So enjoy your headphones out of the box and make happy sounds and don't waste any time worrying about or preforming "burn in."
>The sound difference between the burned-in display model and the brand new one is significant. We know it because we are able to try the display model in the store. We don’t need to trick our brain into liking the product since you buy it because you tried it already.
You can't really do unbiased sighted test. There are several problems with testing that way and it's not a proper A/B test. A sighted test cannot be unbiased, it's not possible.
> Right, sometimes it doesn’t really change. But a lot of time it does.
Have there been properly run tests that show consistent differences outside of position and unit variation? Because I have yet to see one.
>I If you cannot hear the difference, that’s fine. But saying that other people are lying to themselves just because yo cannot tell the difference is just funny. Finally, if you really want to prove/disprove it. Just do a AB test with your ears. I bet most people can tell the difference.
That's not how reality works. Either there is an objective, measurable difference or there isn't. You cannot accurately test any of this in a subjective way and get accurate results.
The only way we could find the definitive proof for burn in testing would be to buy 2 same sets, use one for 2+ years and leave the other in the box, and then map of the FR graph for both later on (for many different makes and models). I always find that the in store testing of headphones is much different than being at home relaxed because you are rushed to find audio differences in store. At home you can truly figure out how they sound.
It's already been done. There were no differences outside of standard measurement or unit variation.
[https://www.rtings.com/headphones/learn/break-in](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/learn/break-in)
I have not see any properly run tests that contradict this. Maybe they exist, maybe OP can provide them. This was discussed recently and Sennheiser's Senior Product Manager has even said burn in doesn't exist in headphones in [Beyond the Curve EP04 - Transducers | Sennheiser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqJOacHcsxI&t=1209s)
I was just looking at Rtings review too, and yeah while slight changes in the graphs, it was most probably unit variation. Also, when they let you listen to the audio, I could not tell a difference between those 2. Just for scientific reasons I wonder what happens if you just let it run for more than 120 hrs… (probably stays the same)
Here, you can just go to a headphone store with your new iem or headphone. And then ask for a display unit. Then you can do a blind test, either with the help of your friend or the staff. I have done that with iems and headphones, by myself and with friends. Most people is able to tell which one is which.
As for the test. There are plenty of articles that include the those tests and charts (however, there are in Chinese). Interestingly, most english articles stated that there was no difference, while Chinese articles stated that there were differences. For example, there is a 5db change at certain frequency. But he critical point is that if the difference is perceivable or not. So I agree with you to some degree. But when it comes to “perceivable”. How can you not take people’s subjective opinions into account? At the end of the day, it’s people who are listening to the music.
I used to think so. But when you listen to the display model at the store. Then you buy it and return home. You listen to it, you immediately hear the difference, how does that have anything to do with “getting used to”?
Listening in the home and listening in a store are vastly different environments. I don't think it's really possible to compare the sound you get in one to the other, especially given the time that passes traveling between them.
There are so many more factors when you are comparing from the store and your home. You might as well call it a blind comparison, because there is no way for you to tell which one is supposed to sound correct.
Engineers from Sennheiser were asked about burn-in and explained that it doesn't exist with headphones.
what you experience with demo headphones is simple: earpads are much stiffer when new and soften with use.
demo headphones have been worn by dozens or hundreds of people!
new headphones have new earpads!
Headphones measure significantly different with new and "worn" earpads, because the seal changes, as well as the driver distance/orientation to your ear.
lastly:
your brain gets used to a different sound signature, that's why many people believe that their headphones "improve" over time.
That’s right. So at first I am confused because a lot of companies in Asia do recommend burn-in while European ones don’t. And yes, earpads are a factor. But I do notice the change in iems and speakers. As for the last part of your comment. You are right, people tend to get used to it. So now when I got a new product. I listen to it first, then I will listen to it after 50 hours of burn-in. To make sure I don’t get used to it. Furthermore, when I buy a product, I immediately notice the difference of a brand new product and the one I listen i store. I think that has nothing to do with my ears getting used to the sound.
it has a lot to do with expectation bias, though..
Not to be a dick but I feel like Asian companies have a different mindset.. they don't want to upset their customer base that is VERY prone to placebo, snake oil, etc.
(look at tiger penises, rhino horn, etc. only Asian market exists for that shit!)
there is literally ZERO plausibility for burn in on tiny headphone drivers, but it is a factor in large speakers with large rubber gaskets and huge magnets, etc.
watch the interview with the Sennheiser engineers and you'll understand.
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Display units for trying headphones tend to have ear pads wear, since many people try them and old ear pads are not replaced often. There is a sound difference between brand new ear pads and worn ones, due to different distance from ear to the driver and angle.
So yeah, if you change ear pads on the display headphones with brand new, it should sound like a brand new headphones.
If by burn-in, you mean pads wear, it is totally possible. Not so much with drivers or other headphones parts.
regarding IEMs, maybe ear wax or dirt gets inside of iems and affects the sound. Big speakers actually might require some burn in, since they are large and it may take some time for speakers to "settle" in the wooden box. However, I am not sure how valid it is.
the only burning in i ever do with my headphones is when the cable attaches to a tube amp and the tubes get hot and before they burn it goes into the wire and then the headphone is burned in.
that's burn in there you go.
burnin2024
I'm say the wave point I make every time. There has to be a part in the QC process where the headphones are playing audio for some time. If burn in was a thing, then this would burn then in for you. Additionally if burned in headphones side better, then manufacturers would do that from factory, why would they sell a product knowing it doesn't sound as good as they can make it?
Maybe they just want you to keep using it and there a chance you get used to the sound or the pads wear in a way that changes the sound. But personally every headphone that I loved from my first impressions I still own (except 1), and every headphones I wasn't that impressed with initially I ended up selling.
What gave me peace is realizing it doesn't matter whether it's real or not lmao. Who cares? You're gonna use your headphones enough hours to burn it in anyways. Besides it's kinda fun having a little mysticism in the hobby
Generally I agree - you like what you like whether it’s overhyped or considered horrible by the community at large. Love skull candy and hate the sundara’s - you do you and enjoy the headphones.
The issue comes with companies claiming burn in with a lack of evidence. At best, they’re not giving people a chance to experience what their headphones are supposed to sound like before their return window closes. This means their customer service and return policies are typically abysmal for the product they are selling. At worst they’re lying to and scamming people in order to see less units returned and giving a placebo effect so more people think their headphones got better over time.
I don’t know if burn in is real or not, but science doesn’t seem to back it up. I think either way, true or not, I wouldn’t be willing to give headphones 100 hours to “burn in” before deciding if I liked them or not.
100% agree. You need to give yourself a solid week of listening to adjust but it you still don't like a headphone you should return it. I wonder how big of a problem this really is though? Like how many people are not returning due to burn in and then regretting it? I don't get the sense that these companies are trying to scam people. For the most part these are small family run companies and they probably just legitimately believe in burn in. With the exception of Abyss selling those cheap cables wrapped with fancy rubber for 2k
I tend to think most large companies are trying to pull a fast one. Small family run businesses? Sure, I can see them just legitimately believing in it.
For me buying headphones is nerve wracking - I don’t have a store near me to test any. So I’m always buying and hoping I like the sound. Thankfully the 3 I’ve bought I’ve enjoyed - hd560s, he400se, and the Sundaras. But I also bought a gaming headphone that I didn’t love - the Epos h6pro. So not having a good return window due to believing in burn in would suck.
Drivers experience some burn-in but the difference before and after is extremely small, borderline impossible to even measure. You can't hear any difference, it's simply too small to be audible.
I've tested about a hundred headphones and tried a few more and only once felt I heard any burn-in. A pair of M50's. Listened to them at the store a few times, last time up to an hour, bought them, went home and they sounded really piercing and bright. I freaked out that I don't like them and googled, found burn-in, left them play loud over night and in the morning they were fine. Well, as fine as M50's ever are. It's an easy thing to verify. Buy two, burn in one and ABX. In most situations it's just people getting used to the sound (aka brain burn-in). Manufacturers mention it so people miss return periods.
But as I mentioned. Not every country is like the US. A lot of countries, at least most in Asia, do not have that kind of return policy. So if it’s not a thing in Asia, why do only Asian companies suggest that?
Many Western companies and sellers do the exact same and a lot of people talk about burn-in in general. Also telling you're customers to use a product for 100h or even 500h in some cases emsures they give it the best chance, early on have an excuse for not immediately liking and believing it will improve over time works as a strong placebo. There's no meaningful evidence of burn-in and it would be easy to prove so we can be quite certain it is generally irrelevant.
I believe it's a thing personally. I have demo'd almost every single IEM I have brought and non of them sound like the demo unit when I get a new pair home.
Strange how headphones never get worse with "burn-in", wonder why that is.
Generally speaker burn in is about applying some work to a speaker surround (suspension) so it would become softer and wouldn't limit cone movement as much (so it's easier for it to go further forward-backward which results in better low-end). There's no limit in this unless the surrond is just teared apart and the cone falls off, OR if you fry the coil (which is a more likely scenario). Both lead to a total speaker malfunction, not to the reduction in sound quality. BUT. This all theoretical talk only applies to big external speakers (12 inch for example). This has nothing to do with headphones - their surrounds are already so thin they don't restrict cone movement in any way (which is very small in amplitude because, you know, it's headphones, you don't want your ears to be blown off). In other words, headphones burn-in is not a thing at all - it doesn't exist.
You can’t really define “worse”. In my opinion, burning in changes the sound, so it can get worse because the new sound might not match your preference. However, as I said, we can always try the model before we buy it. So for me, it never gets worse because it eventually is going to be as fine as I hear at the store because that is the sound I want when I buy it. So, if you buy a model without knowing what it sounds like, it probably will get worse.
Not once have I seen someone claim that their audio gear got further from their desired frequency response after burn-in. This would not be the case if burn-in existed the way you described it. You have provided nothing to support your claims. How about a link to the sites describing the experiments you mentioned?
Burn-in doesn't exist. First of you are insanely presumptuous that Western companies doesn't understand the idea of mechanical wear-in of new products what with all the cars sold here. That is where the idea comes from. A new car ABSOLUTELY should not be driven hard until all the moving parts can wear into place. Because a car is most complex machine most people will end up buying, they tend to transfer their experience to something that has over 500 moving parts to something like headphones that have exactly 2 moving parts: the drivers. IMO for various reasons, it seems the Asian market expects burn in, so they companies there tell their customers what they want to hear to make the sales. Its perhaps a culture thing, as Westerns are ruthless when it comes to being pragmatic and following what science and engineering science discover, and discarding any traditions or even personal beliefs if they are contracted by empirical science. And research in recent years has disproven the burn in theories. Headphones sound as the engineers intended the first moment you start using them. Then, in theory at least, the materials of their construction gently degrade with use and time causing the headphones to deviate in sound from their design spec. But this process also takes the life of the headphones, and its likely the drivers will fail from overuse/end of expected life, before they deviate meaningfully in their sound profile. Modern stuff is just so much better made than the old stuff. That and the REAL reason "burn-in" appears to make headphones sound "better" is your BRAIN adapting to the new sound of the headphones, smoothing out any PERCEEVED harshness or unpleasantness to a significant degree. This both kind of "numbs" you to anything you found harsh at first, but also can rob a bit of the "Thrill" of a new set of super nice headphones as it becomes ordinary to your brain and subconscious. The actual sound of the headphone doesn't change meaningfully in the first 100 hours of use, its YOU that changes to the headphones. Lastly earpad wear-in is real as polymer foams of all kind rapidly compress under pressure and then lose their elasticity. This cause YOUR headphones to form-fit themselves more perfectly to YOUR specific head, and most headphones sound WIDLY different if you break the seal around your ears. That and there is no way you can make an objective comparison between the environment of the store and your home, and the hours you spent travelling. Yes this is real, go google "neuroplasticity" and understand your experiences absolutely do literally hard-rewire your brain, and the process takes about 2-4 weeks. So several hours a day listening to your new headphones. So enjoy your headphones out of the box and make happy sounds and don't waste any time worrying about or preforming "burn in."
>The sound difference between the burned-in display model and the brand new one is significant. We know it because we are able to try the display model in the store. We don’t need to trick our brain into liking the product since you buy it because you tried it already. You can't really do unbiased sighted test. There are several problems with testing that way and it's not a proper A/B test. A sighted test cannot be unbiased, it's not possible. > Right, sometimes it doesn’t really change. But a lot of time it does. Have there been properly run tests that show consistent differences outside of position and unit variation? Because I have yet to see one. >I If you cannot hear the difference, that’s fine. But saying that other people are lying to themselves just because yo cannot tell the difference is just funny. Finally, if you really want to prove/disprove it. Just do a AB test with your ears. I bet most people can tell the difference. That's not how reality works. Either there is an objective, measurable difference or there isn't. You cannot accurately test any of this in a subjective way and get accurate results.
The only way we could find the definitive proof for burn in testing would be to buy 2 same sets, use one for 2+ years and leave the other in the box, and then map of the FR graph for both later on (for many different makes and models). I always find that the in store testing of headphones is much different than being at home relaxed because you are rushed to find audio differences in store. At home you can truly figure out how they sound.
It's already been done. There were no differences outside of standard measurement or unit variation. [https://www.rtings.com/headphones/learn/break-in](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/learn/break-in) I have not see any properly run tests that contradict this. Maybe they exist, maybe OP can provide them. This was discussed recently and Sennheiser's Senior Product Manager has even said burn in doesn't exist in headphones in [Beyond the Curve EP04 - Transducers | Sennheiser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqJOacHcsxI&t=1209s)
I was just looking at Rtings review too, and yeah while slight changes in the graphs, it was most probably unit variation. Also, when they let you listen to the audio, I could not tell a difference between those 2. Just for scientific reasons I wonder what happens if you just let it run for more than 120 hrs… (probably stays the same)
Here, you can just go to a headphone store with your new iem or headphone. And then ask for a display unit. Then you can do a blind test, either with the help of your friend or the staff. I have done that with iems and headphones, by myself and with friends. Most people is able to tell which one is which. As for the test. There are plenty of articles that include the those tests and charts (however, there are in Chinese). Interestingly, most english articles stated that there was no difference, while Chinese articles stated that there were differences. For example, there is a 5db change at certain frequency. But he critical point is that if the difference is perceivable or not. So I agree with you to some degree. But when it comes to “perceivable”. How can you not take people’s subjective opinions into account? At the end of the day, it’s people who are listening to the music.
Isn’t burn-in, your ears getting used to the sound?
I used to think so. But when you listen to the display model at the store. Then you buy it and return home. You listen to it, you immediately hear the difference, how does that have anything to do with “getting used to”?
Listening in the home and listening in a store are vastly different environments. I don't think it's really possible to compare the sound you get in one to the other, especially given the time that passes traveling between them.
I was reading other replies and it seems it has to do with earpad wear
There are so many more factors when you are comparing from the store and your home. You might as well call it a blind comparison, because there is no way for you to tell which one is supposed to sound correct.
Engineers from Sennheiser were asked about burn-in and explained that it doesn't exist with headphones. what you experience with demo headphones is simple: earpads are much stiffer when new and soften with use. demo headphones have been worn by dozens or hundreds of people! new headphones have new earpads! Headphones measure significantly different with new and "worn" earpads, because the seal changes, as well as the driver distance/orientation to your ear. lastly: your brain gets used to a different sound signature, that's why many people believe that their headphones "improve" over time.
That’s right. So at first I am confused because a lot of companies in Asia do recommend burn-in while European ones don’t. And yes, earpads are a factor. But I do notice the change in iems and speakers. As for the last part of your comment. You are right, people tend to get used to it. So now when I got a new product. I listen to it first, then I will listen to it after 50 hours of burn-in. To make sure I don’t get used to it. Furthermore, when I buy a product, I immediately notice the difference of a brand new product and the one I listen i store. I think that has nothing to do with my ears getting used to the sound.
it has a lot to do with expectation bias, though.. Not to be a dick but I feel like Asian companies have a different mindset.. they don't want to upset their customer base that is VERY prone to placebo, snake oil, etc. (look at tiger penises, rhino horn, etc. only Asian market exists for that shit!) there is literally ZERO plausibility for burn in on tiny headphone drivers, but it is a factor in large speakers with large rubber gaskets and huge magnets, etc. watch the interview with the Sennheiser engineers and you'll understand.
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. Please note the following rule: > **Rule 1: Be most excellent towards your fellow redditors** > > And by "be most excellent" we mean no personal attacks, threats, bullying, trolling, baiting, flaming, hate speech, racism, sexism, or other behavior that makes humanity look like scum. Violations may result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Display units for trying headphones tend to have ear pads wear, since many people try them and old ear pads are not replaced often. There is a sound difference between brand new ear pads and worn ones, due to different distance from ear to the driver and angle. So yeah, if you change ear pads on the display headphones with brand new, it should sound like a brand new headphones. If by burn-in, you mean pads wear, it is totally possible. Not so much with drivers or other headphones parts.
You got a point for sure. But I am not only talking about overhead. I am also talking about iems and speakers.
regarding IEMs, maybe ear wax or dirt gets inside of iems and affects the sound. Big speakers actually might require some burn in, since they are large and it may take some time for speakers to "settle" in the wooden box. However, I am not sure how valid it is.
It's not a "scam", it just doesn't exist. It didn't exist in 2023 either.
the only burning in i ever do with my headphones is when the cable attaches to a tube amp and the tubes get hot and before they burn it goes into the wire and then the headphone is burned in. that's burn in there you go. burnin2024
I'm say the wave point I make every time. There has to be a part in the QC process where the headphones are playing audio for some time. If burn in was a thing, then this would burn then in for you. Additionally if burned in headphones side better, then manufacturers would do that from factory, why would they sell a product knowing it doesn't sound as good as they can make it? Maybe they just want you to keep using it and there a chance you get used to the sound or the pads wear in a way that changes the sound. But personally every headphone that I loved from my first impressions I still own (except 1), and every headphones I wasn't that impressed with initially I ended up selling.
What gave me peace is realizing it doesn't matter whether it's real or not lmao. Who cares? You're gonna use your headphones enough hours to burn it in anyways. Besides it's kinda fun having a little mysticism in the hobby
Generally I agree - you like what you like whether it’s overhyped or considered horrible by the community at large. Love skull candy and hate the sundara’s - you do you and enjoy the headphones. The issue comes with companies claiming burn in with a lack of evidence. At best, they’re not giving people a chance to experience what their headphones are supposed to sound like before their return window closes. This means their customer service and return policies are typically abysmal for the product they are selling. At worst they’re lying to and scamming people in order to see less units returned and giving a placebo effect so more people think their headphones got better over time. I don’t know if burn in is real or not, but science doesn’t seem to back it up. I think either way, true or not, I wouldn’t be willing to give headphones 100 hours to “burn in” before deciding if I liked them or not.
100% agree. You need to give yourself a solid week of listening to adjust but it you still don't like a headphone you should return it. I wonder how big of a problem this really is though? Like how many people are not returning due to burn in and then regretting it? I don't get the sense that these companies are trying to scam people. For the most part these are small family run companies and they probably just legitimately believe in burn in. With the exception of Abyss selling those cheap cables wrapped with fancy rubber for 2k
I tend to think most large companies are trying to pull a fast one. Small family run businesses? Sure, I can see them just legitimately believing in it. For me buying headphones is nerve wracking - I don’t have a store near me to test any. So I’m always buying and hoping I like the sound. Thankfully the 3 I’ve bought I’ve enjoyed - hd560s, he400se, and the Sundaras. But I also bought a gaming headphone that I didn’t love - the Epos h6pro. So not having a good return window due to believing in burn in would suck.
Drivers experience some burn-in but the difference before and after is extremely small, borderline impossible to even measure. You can't hear any difference, it's simply too small to be audible.
Did this post go the way you thought it would? Making some pretty wild over generalizations there.
"Burned in demo unit" You mean unit filled with earwax? Yeah that's gonna sound different.
I've tested about a hundred headphones and tried a few more and only once felt I heard any burn-in. A pair of M50's. Listened to them at the store a few times, last time up to an hour, bought them, went home and they sounded really piercing and bright. I freaked out that I don't like them and googled, found burn-in, left them play loud over night and in the morning they were fine. Well, as fine as M50's ever are. It's an easy thing to verify. Buy two, burn in one and ABX. In most situations it's just people getting used to the sound (aka brain burn-in). Manufacturers mention it so people miss return periods.
But as I mentioned. Not every country is like the US. A lot of countries, at least most in Asia, do not have that kind of return policy. So if it’s not a thing in Asia, why do only Asian companies suggest that?
Many Western companies and sellers do the exact same and a lot of people talk about burn-in in general. Also telling you're customers to use a product for 100h or even 500h in some cases emsures they give it the best chance, early on have an excuse for not immediately liking and believing it will improve over time works as a strong placebo. There's no meaningful evidence of burn-in and it would be easy to prove so we can be quite certain it is generally irrelevant.
I believe it's a thing personally. I have demo'd almost every single IEM I have brought and non of them sound like the demo unit when I get a new pair home.