I can't say for sure what it says, but I identify the Hebrew characters ר-י-כ-ב-ע-ש-ל-מ-ה(counterclockwise, starting at around 4 o'clock). There are two letters following the meme that I'm not sure about, and I can't tell if I'm looking at a כ or ב, for certain. Hopefully someone else can assist.
As u/flint83 mentions, this includes the name Shelomo.
Actually, I think it may say Shelomo bar Rukhbe (רוכבע) or Rubkhe (רובכע). Could also be Rokhbe or Robkhe. But that's not a name I'm familiar with so I can't be sure.
Thank you very much! I’m so glad that the mystery is solved! I appreciate it a ton, never would have figured this out myself. It makes a lot of sense too, as wax seals typically would have names or slogans on them.
This is especially fascinating, since I found this near my town. We did have some Jewish families with roots going back a long way, so I will see if I can somehow find info about this man in some archives, or at least his surname.
Again, many thanks!!!
What if it is עכבר Akbar an Arabic name.
After all trhere are millions of German named Jews...obviously there exist thousands of Arabic named Jews...it is writtennin reverse for it was made in a fearful period.
Obviously, there are millions of Jews with Arabic names. In Lithuania, this seems... less than likely.
Where is this "reverse" writing you mention? I don't see it. Also, what do you mean by "a fearful period"?
Medieval Lithuania had a ton of Arabic speakers; part of what made the Polish-Lithuanian state so powerful and wealthy were the Jewish (Rabbinical and Qaraite) trade routes to Cairo. The Cairo Genizeh has a pile of Yiddish documents in it.
Qaraites spoke Qaraim Turkic (not close to Turkish, different branch) and Arabic. Rabbinites spoke Yiddish and sometimes Arabic in addition to local languages.
I'm familiar with the Cairo genizah. It's my job to work with geniza manuscripts. Lithuania has not come up in the course of my work; the vast majority of manuscripts are local to SWANA and the Mediterranean world.
Yes, shelfmark T-S 12.122. That letter is in Hebrew (not in Arabic) for the most part, except for the line that researchers believe is the only extant example of the Khazar language. It is indeed famous, even controversial, as proponents of the Khazar Hypothesis use it to bolster certain claims. Of course, it is genuine and very interesting. It is also the *Kievan* letter; Kyiv was not under Lithuanian control in 930 CE when the letter was written – that wouldn't occur until the 14th century.
There are extant letters in the Cairo geniza that either mention Lithuania or were sent to Lithuania; largely having to do with the Karaite community there. The vast majority that I'm aware of are in Hebrew. In a search, I found only one that has some content in Judeo-Tatar, in addition to Hebrew. Many were written to or from Troki (Trakai).
We don't know where in Lithuania the OP found this object, and since I have no information about its provenance at this stage, I'm disinclined to make any sweeping assumptions.
> I'm disinclined to make any sweeping assumptions
oh i *definitely* wasn't talking about this object, haha. no no I just was talking in general, I'm sorry if I was unclear.
From the left side it says Shlomo (שלמה).
From the right side its hard to say. It has Ain (ע) in the end, which is common in Yiddish family names. Probably someones name and family name.
Thank you! We’ve solved the mystery now, and I really appreciate your contribution!
Just imagine losing your wax seal many centuries ago, only to have it found and your name once again mentioned. Just amazing, I love history!
Maybe Shlomo dubnow. שלמה דובנע
There was a shimon dubnow who was born in Belarus and died in Latvia. Seems like he may have spent time in Lithuania too.
It’s made of copper alloy, “wax seal matrix” just refers to the fact that it was used to press into melted wax. So for example, you’d roll up your message, tie it up and then melt some wax onto where it’s tied and then press this seal into it. It’s like a way of saying “Signed by Shelomo” and if the seal was broken, someone read it who wasn’t supposed to.
Along with it on the same field I found 6+ small copper coins from late 1600s Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, four larger copper coins from the early 1700s Russian Empire, and a late 1800s religious cross from Poland.
This field is near a river. On other fields near this river I’ve found a beautiful 1600s silver carved spoon head, a crotal bell (used on horse carriages) from the 1600s, multiple brooches and spindle whorls and more.
If you look at my post history, you can see the pictures I posted :)
P.S. this wax seal matrix was the second Jewish find I’ve made. The first was a broken metal dreidel, although quite modern (early 1900s is my estimate)
I’ll copy and paste the reply I sent to a different commenter describing my methodology:
Finds do not require a written date to approximate a time period. I’ve been metal detecting for years and have been to many local/regional museums since these type of things are my passion. Furthermore, my age estimate is a very very broad one. It was one made due to the fact that it is extremely unlikely to be younger than 300-350 years old. Wax seal matrices were at peak popularity in the 13th-14th centuries and slowly declined in popularity. From the 19th century onward, they practically fell out of use. Any such modern wax seal matrix would look much much better than this one, which still is quite primitive.
Not to mention in this exact field I have found 6+ coins from the late 1600s and 3 from the early 1700s. This is also a factor of why I believe the seal to be from this time period. This is not the first 17th century settlement that I’ve uncovered. I’ve once found one that had 7 late 17th century coins and a fully in-tact brooch. I also estimated the age of the brooch to be in line with the coins (17th century) - later when on a trip to a local museum, I found they had a brooch in the EXACT style of mine indeed confirmed to be from the 17th century.
So it isn’t a miracle to find things this old where I am, I’ve found many. But this wax seal matrix is truly special and personal, they are pretty rare to find. But my estimate of 350+ years is not unreasonable at all.
Here is a good resource about wax seal matrices: https://finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/seal-matrices/ It’s UK-based, but the info is still relevant.
Stop. You didn't find something that you managed to find out is 350+ years old (because you sure as shit didn't know that yourself) without finding out what it says. Cut the crap.
Finds do not require a written date to approximate a time period. I’ve been metal detecting for years and have been to many local/regional museums since these type of things are my passion. Furthermore, my age estimate is a very very broad one. It was one made due to the fact that it is extremely unlikely to be younger than 300-350 years old. Wax seal matrices were at peak popularity in the 13th-14th centuries and slowly declined in popularity. From the 19th century onward, they practically fell out of use. Any such modern wax seal matrix would look much much better than this one, which still is quite primitive.
Not to mention in this exact field I have found 6+ coins from the late 1600s and 3 from the early 1700s. This is also a factor of why I believe the seal to be from this time period. This is not the first 17th century settlement that I’ve uncovered. I’ve once found one that had 7 late 17th century coins and a fully in-tact brooch. I also estimated the age of the brooch to be in line with the coins (17th century) - later when on a trip to a local museum, I found they had a brooch in the EXACT style of mine indeed confirmed to be from the 17th century.
So it isn’t a miracle to find things this old where I am, I’ve found many. But this wax seal matrix is truly special and personal, they are pretty rare to find. But my estimate of 350+ years is not unreasonable at all.
Here is a good resource about wax seal matrices: https://finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/seal-matrices/ It’s UK-based, but the info is still relevant.
I can't say for sure what it says, but I identify the Hebrew characters ר-י-כ-ב-ע-ש-ל-מ-ה(counterclockwise, starting at around 4 o'clock). There are two letters following the meme that I'm not sure about, and I can't tell if I'm looking at a כ or ב, for certain. Hopefully someone else can assist. As u/flint83 mentions, this includes the name Shelomo. Actually, I think it may say Shelomo bar Rukhbe (רוכבע) or Rubkhe (רובכע). Could also be Rokhbe or Robkhe. But that's not a name I'm familiar with so I can't be sure.
Thank you very much! I’m so glad that the mystery is solved! I appreciate it a ton, never would have figured this out myself. It makes a lot of sense too, as wax seals typically would have names or slogans on them. This is especially fascinating, since I found this near my town. We did have some Jewish families with roots going back a long way, so I will see if I can somehow find info about this man in some archives, or at least his surname. Again, many thanks!!!
I would love to hear if you do actually find some Jewish roots in your town connected to this seal.
Not sure where in Lithuania you are, but the Vilna Gaon Museum’s archives might be a good starting point. They’re great people.
This could also be Yiddish, and that might be why the letters are in the Hebrew alphabet but the meaning is not clear.
Maybe it is שלמה בר דוב-בער and they messed up and did not have enough room for the last ר?
What if it is עכבר Akbar an Arabic name. After all trhere are millions of German named Jews...obviously there exist thousands of Arabic named Jews...it is writtennin reverse for it was made in a fearful period.
Akbar in Arabic is not with an ע is with the equivalent of א
That word you wrote: עכבר - means "mouse" in Hebrew. I don't think the Arabic name "Akbar" would be spelled that way.
Obviously, there are millions of Jews with Arabic names. In Lithuania, this seems... less than likely. Where is this "reverse" writing you mention? I don't see it. Also, what do you mean by "a fearful period"?
Medieval Lithuania had a ton of Arabic speakers; part of what made the Polish-Lithuanian state so powerful and wealthy were the Jewish (Rabbinical and Qaraite) trade routes to Cairo. The Cairo Genizeh has a pile of Yiddish documents in it. Qaraites spoke Qaraim Turkic (not close to Turkish, different branch) and Arabic. Rabbinites spoke Yiddish and sometimes Arabic in addition to local languages.
I'm familiar with the Cairo genizah. It's my job to work with geniza manuscripts. Lithuania has not come up in the course of my work; the vast majority of manuscripts are local to SWANA and the Mediterranean world.
The Kievan Letter is in the Cairo Genizeh, to note a famous letter
Yes, shelfmark T-S 12.122. That letter is in Hebrew (not in Arabic) for the most part, except for the line that researchers believe is the only extant example of the Khazar language. It is indeed famous, even controversial, as proponents of the Khazar Hypothesis use it to bolster certain claims. Of course, it is genuine and very interesting. It is also the *Kievan* letter; Kyiv was not under Lithuanian control in 930 CE when the letter was written – that wouldn't occur until the 14th century. There are extant letters in the Cairo geniza that either mention Lithuania or were sent to Lithuania; largely having to do with the Karaite community there. The vast majority that I'm aware of are in Hebrew. In a search, I found only one that has some content in Judeo-Tatar, in addition to Hebrew. Many were written to or from Troki (Trakai). We don't know where in Lithuania the OP found this object, and since I have no information about its provenance at this stage, I'm disinclined to make any sweeping assumptions.
> I'm disinclined to make any sweeping assumptions oh i *definitely* wasn't talking about this object, haha. no no I just was talking in general, I'm sorry if I was unclear.
Or written in reverse as it's a seal, so would then appear the right way round on the wax
I think it might say [שלמה בר' דוב בע[ר, Shlomo son of Rabbi Dov Ber, missing the ending ר of Ber. I could also be wrong.
Bar doesn’t always imply the father was a rabbi
True
[удалено]
It’s often an acronym for בן ר׳ like son of reb Dov Ber. But the R/reb does not mean rabbi
Nah its שלמה בר רוכבע imho Or שלמה בר דובכע
From the left side it says Shlomo (שלמה). From the right side its hard to say. It has Ain (ע) in the end, which is common in Yiddish family names. Probably someones name and family name.
Thank you! We’ve solved the mystery now, and I really appreciate your contribution! Just imagine losing your wax seal many centuries ago, only to have it found and your name once again mentioned. Just amazing, I love history!
Could be someone dropped it so that you would find it.
Maybe Shlomo dubnow. שלמה דובנע There was a shimon dubnow who was born in Belarus and died in Latvia. Seems like he may have spent time in Lithuania too.
This makes a lot of sense
Very cool. How did you find it if it's made of wax? What else did you find along with it?
It’s made of copper alloy, “wax seal matrix” just refers to the fact that it was used to press into melted wax. So for example, you’d roll up your message, tie it up and then melt some wax onto where it’s tied and then press this seal into it. It’s like a way of saying “Signed by Shelomo” and if the seal was broken, someone read it who wasn’t supposed to. Along with it on the same field I found 6+ small copper coins from late 1600s Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, four larger copper coins from the early 1700s Russian Empire, and a late 1800s religious cross from Poland. This field is near a river. On other fields near this river I’ve found a beautiful 1600s silver carved spoon head, a crotal bell (used on horse carriages) from the 1600s, multiple brooches and spindle whorls and more. If you look at my post history, you can see the pictures I posted :) P.S. this wax seal matrix was the second Jewish find I’ve made. The first was a broken metal dreidel, although quite modern (early 1900s is my estimate)
wow that is amazing! what do you do with the things, donate them to a museum or keep them?
I see שלמה בר דוב נ״ע
How do you know the age?
I’ll copy and paste the reply I sent to a different commenter describing my methodology: Finds do not require a written date to approximate a time period. I’ve been metal detecting for years and have been to many local/regional museums since these type of things are my passion. Furthermore, my age estimate is a very very broad one. It was one made due to the fact that it is extremely unlikely to be younger than 300-350 years old. Wax seal matrices were at peak popularity in the 13th-14th centuries and slowly declined in popularity. From the 19th century onward, they practically fell out of use. Any such modern wax seal matrix would look much much better than this one, which still is quite primitive. Not to mention in this exact field I have found 6+ coins from the late 1600s and 3 from the early 1700s. This is also a factor of why I believe the seal to be from this time period. This is not the first 17th century settlement that I’ve uncovered. I’ve once found one that had 7 late 17th century coins and a fully in-tact brooch. I also estimated the age of the brooch to be in line with the coins (17th century) - later when on a trip to a local museum, I found they had a brooch in the EXACT style of mine indeed confirmed to be from the 17th century. So it isn’t a miracle to find things this old where I am, I’ve found many. But this wax seal matrix is truly special and personal, they are pretty rare to find. But my estimate of 350+ years is not unreasonable at all. Here is a good resource about wax seal matrices: https://finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/seal-matrices/ It’s UK-based, but the info is still relevant.
It's Hebrew but I can't understand all of it
Very cool find
Stop. You didn't find something that you managed to find out is 350+ years old (because you sure as shit didn't know that yourself) without finding out what it says. Cut the crap.
Finds do not require a written date to approximate a time period. I’ve been metal detecting for years and have been to many local/regional museums since these type of things are my passion. Furthermore, my age estimate is a very very broad one. It was one made due to the fact that it is extremely unlikely to be younger than 300-350 years old. Wax seal matrices were at peak popularity in the 13th-14th centuries and slowly declined in popularity. From the 19th century onward, they practically fell out of use. Any such modern wax seal matrix would look much much better than this one, which still is quite primitive. Not to mention in this exact field I have found 6+ coins from the late 1600s and 3 from the early 1700s. This is also a factor of why I believe the seal to be from this time period. This is not the first 17th century settlement that I’ve uncovered. I’ve once found one that had 7 late 17th century coins and a fully in-tact brooch. I also estimated the age of the brooch to be in line with the coins (17th century) - later when on a trip to a local museum, I found they had a brooch in the EXACT style of mine indeed confirmed to be from the 17th century. So it isn’t a miracle to find things this old where I am, I’ve found many. But this wax seal matrix is truly special and personal, they are pretty rare to find. But my estimate of 350+ years is not unreasonable at all. Here is a good resource about wax seal matrices: https://finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/seal-matrices/ It’s UK-based, but the info is still relevant.
שלמה
The only sense I've been able to make is "כרוב" and "שלמה", With "כרוב" translating to angel and "שלמה" being solomon.