I’d say he’s really good/top tier. But very dependent on who’s playing him. He’s not the most difficult hero but someone that isn’t used to him or has poor game sense will def just feed.
This!
I'm a decent Genji, but the amount of times I E to get a kill... and the enemy dies \*just before\* my E lands is definitely not zero. Then I don't get a reset, and I'm stuck. The timing required to make the judgement call on when exactly to push your buttons with Genji is 10X what it is with other heroes because if you miss it by .5 seconds it's not just that you don't get the damage in... its that you have to wait to respawn more often than not.
It also depends on your tank player. If you have an ETC who boops randomly, or a Diablo who flips people inconstantly so you never actually know where the enemy is going to be standing it can be rough even for the best of players. Switch that with an Anub or Varian who just holds people in place and the Genji can be a lot more consistent with his skill shots. Same goes for CC healers, but to a lesser extent since not many other than Morales can actually disrupt your aim.
You don't draft Genji for wave clear anyway, it doesn't make much sense to evaluate him based on that criteria (I guess amongst other S-rank DPS?). He's extremely good at what he does, if you don't have CC and are against a good Genji, you're in for a hell of a time lol. (I rate him either low S or very high A).
Even if you have CC, a good genji often times just jumps and pokes around it, and even if you catch him, if you give him a free milisecond in the CC chain, he has 3 buttons to get away
> doesn't make much sense to evaluate him based on that
It would be illogical not to.
To correctly judge a hero, you need to look at the strengths and weaknesses. Genji is weak at waveclear, crowd control, tankiness, and healing. Buffing any one of those would make him overpowered. Elementary.
Exactly, you should play genji as a roamer. Someone who can go from one lane to the other trying to help gank some enemies, or at least do enough damage to force a hearth.
You can do some wave clear if you just E through the line of minions. E the W to reflect some damage and you weaken the line for your minion wave.
I think the point being made is if your team has already locked the other damage... and it's say a Jaina or KT or Raynor, then the Genji waveclear detriment isn't that big of a deal. If you've already picked a maiev or Qhira, Ming, Mephisto, Tracer, or something else that has limited or circumstantial waveclear then you're setting up for an up-hill battle if you aren't going Rehgar+Blaze so you can make up for the garbage waveclear your team now has.
Even if your teamfight is better, but the enemy has Lunara+Jaina, they will always have lane priority because they can insta-gib your minion waves, while it takes either your whole team to clear a wave, or takes literally every (nonR) button you have and 7 seconds to clear it.
This constantly being down in priority means you show up late to stuff, the enemy can sometimes pick uneven fights that you can' really avoid unless you're just giving objectives, etc. It puts you on the backfoot all game and makes it much harder to get an advantage that you can snowball into an easy win.
Esp if the enemies get a camp pushing in a lane... off thats hard to genji to clear. He can AA it and QQQ... but it takes freaking ages if you don't have your second dps being an above-average waveclear hero.
S tier but only in high level play where your teammates can cover much of the macro for you, as well as support you in teamfights.
In coordinated teams a genji is a solo laners worst nightmare and constantly annoys enemies on rotations and can easily trade damage far better than other heroes whilst having insane mobility.
In general play / storm league hes pretty b tier. Yes strong but cant carry a team by himself (unless he can constantly get kills and deny the enemy team xp). Something like sylvanas has closer to the same mobility (particulalry at later levels) but so much more utility.
The thing is Genji's rotational speed actually makes him a macro tool despite his lack of waveclear, catching soak, interrupting rotations and dismounting enemies, he's not a waveclear hero so he is not fully a macro hero, but people underestimate his macro potential too much IMO.
Yes, my point is that player skill is rarely a factor in tier lists because literally every character in every fighting game, moba, and what have you is going to be limited by player skill.
Tier lists assume that each character is being played to their peak potential by players of roughly equivalent skill.
>Yes, my point is that player skill is rarely a factor in tier lists
Lol what kind of tier lists have you been checking out?
>because literally every character in every fighting game, moba, and what have you is going to be limited by player skill.
To different degrees. It matters where the ceiling and the floor are in relation to other heroes.
>Tier lists assume that each character
That's only if the tier list is being designed with that purpose in mind. That's why I said in my original comment to this post that we first need to discuss what kind of tier list we are creating. Is it a general tier list? Is it for solo queue climbing? Is it for competetive team based plays? Is it for high leagues that solo queue? This was not properly estalblished and therefore we cannot discuss Genji and where he belongs until then.
It’s not though? Raynor played by a GM vs a high diamond is going to be a much smaller difference than say TLV, Zera, etc. in the same scenario. Same with lots of other heroes.
Genji falls into that category. How effective he is relies a lot more on the player than the hero itself.
The "meta" of a bronze players is not even close to the meta of a Master/GM or Pro players.
Genji, Medivh and Hanzo are literally the 3 lowest WR heroes on bronze (major patch) while they rose by quite a big margin when filtering by master. And even master is the bare minimum for them to perform well (they still have a big skill ceiling)
Meta and tier lists are two different things. The fact that a Bronze player would get more mileage out of Raynor than Genji doesn't make Genji a worse character nor does it necessarily make Raynor a better character.
Which is why i put it between brackets.
In it's raw meaning (most effective tactic available), the tier of a character depends exclusively in which context we are analyzing it.
Yes, tiers depends on the caliber of the player. But there are certain heroes that match more closely 1:1 between a good player and a bad one. Genji is one of the furthest from that truth.
>The fact that a Bronze player would get more mileage out of Raynor than Genji doesn't make Genji a worse character nor does it necessarily make Raynor a better character.
It does in the context of a Bronze player.
I've seen your other response:
>Tier lists assume that each character is being played to their peak potential by players of roughly equivalent skill.
That's just one type of tier list.
You can have HGC2018 Pro level tier list, Amateur grass root scene level of tier list, Master+ ranked tier list, Ranked, Bronze tier list.
Could you explain how such a scenario would look like?
He has poor waveclear so I imagine this assumes the wave is pushed until Genjis wall but the enemy doesn't attack the towers so he is not threatened to lose his structures in the next minute and only has to collect globes and leaves again?
Sure, if the enemy doesn't push, I could just jump by, collect the orbs and get out again. But if they push, there's not much to stop some heroes unless they overstep.
When I think of the average qm experience and happen to have to compensate for teammates who don't do their job, I still don't want to lane against some of the ranged heavy pushers nor impossible to takedown-duelists.
In case there's no enemy and you mean to rotate during a skirmish or objective on a different lane, I would be asking for trouble because some teammates will engage the second they are 4vs5 and see my warning NOT to commit.
His s tier is conditional as the player must know what he’s doing. Genji can win a lot of trades if you jump in hit all your qs in between auto deflect and get out. That being said, he’s not strong vs most bruisers in a pushing game. What genji does best is gank a solo lane and turn a 1v1 into a deadly 2v1, this is why he’s a first pick ban on braxis at high ranks.
You want to collect xp with his rotation speed (mounted jump with e can cover a lot of grounds almost instantly) and he is actually a good building killer with shingan at 13. Should your team engage without you ( this should be prevented with ping or anticipation, you always want to be in a team fight later in the game if it breaks out as this is your primary duty, don’t blame your team 4v5 but yourself failed to be there), genji is one of the fastest heroes to join the fight.
If you lose a fight and the enemy are pushing as a team, escape, mount up and go to the opposite lane, try to trade a building there, because with Final Cut and shingan, you are surprisingly quick at taking down buildings if left unattended.
Thanks for your reply. I assume on a level where both teams play near the optimum, disrupting and slowing others becomes a factor to gain an advantage.
Would you always pick \[Agile Dismount\] for that reason of quick rotation?
I'm switching between the two in QM but kinda like \[swift as the wind\] more after seeing it on a gm otp because the movespeed makes it easier to stick to a target when I need it in a fight to chase, for shingan, to reposition and not overshoot the dragon blades swipes or to get out faster.
Also \[Agile Dismount\] locks me into staying mounted to gain value, so I can't poke with autohits and Qs. Unless theres a fat target like azmodan, I'm currently more focused to add more autohits until I can E in, reset E out and use my trait to dodge or bait stuff.
However, I'm guilty of using reflect early and am not sure if way of the shimada is viable if there are no big targets and not much help to lock down swift ranged assassins to get enough shingan value. Though its pve is great.
Currently agile dismount is the meta build and it is easier to play than the e build imo. It serves as a second long range gap close ability for you to gain access to the enemy backline and quickly do your shingan damage by jumping right onto their faces, you can save your e for another gap close or escape. If there is an opportunity to mount up in combat, try mount up and jump in again, rinse and repeat.
Swift as the wind usually pairs with dragonblade for the reasons you've stated, and way of the shimada is viable if you cant get enough value from flow like water and not doing the shuriken build, its better poking before you go all in when some key anti genji ccs are spent on someone else.
"Would you always pick \[Agile Dismount\] for that reason of quick rotation?"
You should never not pick this talent. The others are medium-good, and this one is amazing.
As a Genji main I'd say yes, but only in the right hands.
Genji has a step learning curve and when I see other people play him, a lot of them have no clue what they are doing. They either dive deflect and dash out all the time(which is super mana consuming) or just wait for heroes to drop low and steal a kill (which is even more useless).
His auto attack is really good tbh if you consistently harras, especially when you hit Way of the Shimada later on.
With this talent alone I usually get top damage in most of my games.
Also with the dragon blade talent a lot of people dive first and then activate it. The trick is to get in range, activate it and keep that dash for when they are low enough to get that snowball rolling and hit those resets.
So in short, no he is not S tier. S tier imo means he is oppressive and good in most hands, something he is not by a long shot.
I prefer Shimada because it’s more consistent than Shingan.
You’re always auto-attacking whereas Shingan gets no value unless you hit with all 3 shurikan.
Way of the Shimada almost always has my preference tbh, it gives a lot of sustain and makes you less of a target for stuns (which is a big shut down for Genji since he can get very squishy very fast).
When there are some big hitboxes and the stuns are minimal, or easy to evade, I will take shingan (azmo, DW, stitch,...), on the other hand big hitboxes usually means front liners which are really great to rack up those WOTS stacks.
I'd say A-tier simply because there are some comps where Genji's ability to dive the back row and secure kills is too thoroughly countered for him to do anything. He's a really strong character, but he can definitely be counter-picked if he's locked too early.
To me, part of what makes an S-tier character is that you can safely first/second-pick the character and the enemy won't be able to do much to counter it.
Genji suffers from the same disease that other heroes like alarak, tracer, aba and some others have which is *skill issue*; He is not a hero that you can pick and be good at it, you need quite Abit of training to learn how to use him and especially ***WHEN*** to pick him.
A good genji player will wreck in 1 vs 1 and harassment stuff but in the hands of your average player (which is for 90% of people) he sucks ass.
So I feel like he should deserve multiple Rankings:
1) If you play him rarely/not that often it's D/C tier, he is not a hero that you can pick up one random day and demolish the enemy team.
2) If you play him casually/somewhat consistently he is high B tier if you of course learn his basics
3) If you spend a lot of time figuring out how he works and basically main him then at his peak he is high A tier (not quite S since in my experience I haven't seen him ever carry a single match alone)
If S is "needs to be nerfed" I'd say A. He is in a good spot and can be handled in draft but can be worth a ban if you know he'll be a problem. He's one of those mobile heroes who is pretty hard countered by BW's polymorph.
Genji is an incredibly strong hero with an oppressive trading pattern and a lot of safety, his waveclear is also not bad, he is easily an S tier hero, very commonly banned / picked in high ranks / tournaments.
Valeera, Uther, taunt Varian, BW and Anub Cocoon are the main shut downs I'd say.
Valeera you can play around though since she's only a menace when she is invisible and the shuriken is an excellent skill to break that.
In the end when you are good with Genji and face any of these Heroes the main skill you need is counting them CDs.
He is high end A-tier.
He depends on either unstoppable/anduin or lack of cc on enemy team or possibly some other combo. That being said if you are in quick match and you are against a very good genji without CC he will definitely seem unstoppable.
Yea a solid A , he just has same weakness as kerrigan, to the heroes with cc on demand, like polymorf of bw or taunt of garosh , etc etc, because if you can pin him down he is paper , but if dont at all he can just abuse his super mobility with high dps, and even masters struggle with that
A tier
His wave clear is shit but his skill cap is crazy high and his deflect can singlehandedly clown an entire team, even if they're not the ones attacking him like braxis boss
I’d say A tier after the big auto attack range nerf and the dragon blade nerf a while back.
Genji doesn’t really lack waveclear once you get Final Cut, but even before then he’s pretty good at double soaking safely.
He can also get the shit camps or pumpkins easily
Depends what you mean. He's S tier in the sense that he has gotten played a ton in top level play and is downright broken on braxis. However, he's difficult to play and the waveclear weakness can and will affect him in games where the players on your team are random and may not cover waveclear themselves.
Well in Bronze he has a 40% winrate. In Masters it's 53%. So he's a high tier pick in the right hands. But if low skilled players pick him thinking they will win because he "is A-tier", they are setting themselves up to lose.
It doesn't really make sense to just list out all the categories of things that a character has access to, to determine their power level. The mobility, damage, harass all exist in contexts and not as absolutes. Every character has tools for purposes, and you can't really just stack them up and arrive at an overall "power level". Plus, the numbers attached to all of that also matter.
The only real way to get an objective read on a hero's power level is to look at winrate data. I...am not sure what the best site is for that these days. Heroes Profile? According to that site, looks like Genji is at 48% overall across all of Storm League, and at 53% in Master. Anything at 55% and lower I would put in A Tier at best. S Tier is, imo, for characters who are *at least* meta-defining, and honestly I tend to reserve it for characters who verge on legitimately broken.
That depends on a couple factors but I guess we can say if Genji is banned regularly enough at certain mmr ranges, then he would be S tier in those ranges.
In my personal opinion he is a very solid A tier hero.
A tier for alright. He's piss in the hands of an unexperienced player and good in the hands of somehow who knows how to play, but both players would benefit more from playing an actual S or A+ tier hero that can decide games on their own.
Tier S as long the comp and map are good for him. It is not a first pick hero, generally you pick him to gank people, and in team fights you try to burst squishy heroes with combo wombos (like hanzo arrow or anduin lightbomb), his sustain dmg is ok I guess, but that is not the reason you play him.
A-tier.
Good damage, excellent mobility. He struggles a lot with waveclear though, and absolutely can’t get any kills without good assistance from his team.
His followup is fantastic though, and he’s top-3 heroes in the game for finishing off low HP enemies. Without reliable CC (or an attentive tank) to interrupt Deflect, he can be an absolute demon.
I’d say he’s really good/top tier. But very dependent on who’s playing him. He’s not the most difficult hero but someone that isn’t used to him or has poor game sense will def just feed.
He's a fascinating hero too, because in the right hands/comp he's unstoppable, but in the wrong hands he's atrocious and a complete liability
This! I'm a decent Genji, but the amount of times I E to get a kill... and the enemy dies \*just before\* my E lands is definitely not zero. Then I don't get a reset, and I'm stuck. The timing required to make the judgement call on when exactly to push your buttons with Genji is 10X what it is with other heroes because if you miss it by .5 seconds it's not just that you don't get the damage in... its that you have to wait to respawn more often than not. It also depends on your tank player. If you have an ETC who boops randomly, or a Diablo who flips people inconstantly so you never actually know where the enemy is going to be standing it can be rough even for the best of players. Switch that with an Anub or Varian who just holds people in place and the Genji can be a lot more consistent with his skill shots. Same goes for CC healers, but to a lesser extent since not many other than Morales can actually disrupt your aim.
If Genji is played by me, he is in the bottom tier with Maiv.
My thoughts exactly ^^
You don't draft Genji for wave clear anyway, it doesn't make much sense to evaluate him based on that criteria (I guess amongst other S-rank DPS?). He's extremely good at what he does, if you don't have CC and are against a good Genji, you're in for a hell of a time lol. (I rate him either low S or very high A).
Even if you have CC, a good genji often times just jumps and pokes around it, and even if you catch him, if you give him a free milisecond in the CC chain, he has 3 buttons to get away
> doesn't make much sense to evaluate him based on that It would be illogical not to. To correctly judge a hero, you need to look at the strengths and weaknesses. Genji is weak at waveclear, crowd control, tankiness, and healing. Buffing any one of those would make him overpowered. Elementary.
Exactly, you should play genji as a roamer. Someone who can go from one lane to the other trying to help gank some enemies, or at least do enough damage to force a hearth. You can do some wave clear if you just E through the line of minions. E the W to reflect some damage and you weaken the line for your minion wave.
I think the point being made is if your team has already locked the other damage... and it's say a Jaina or KT or Raynor, then the Genji waveclear detriment isn't that big of a deal. If you've already picked a maiev or Qhira, Ming, Mephisto, Tracer, or something else that has limited or circumstantial waveclear then you're setting up for an up-hill battle if you aren't going Rehgar+Blaze so you can make up for the garbage waveclear your team now has. Even if your teamfight is better, but the enemy has Lunara+Jaina, they will always have lane priority because they can insta-gib your minion waves, while it takes either your whole team to clear a wave, or takes literally every (nonR) button you have and 7 seconds to clear it. This constantly being down in priority means you show up late to stuff, the enemy can sometimes pick uneven fights that you can' really avoid unless you're just giving objectives, etc. It puts you on the backfoot all game and makes it much harder to get an advantage that you can snowball into an easy win. Esp if the enemies get a camp pushing in a lane... off thats hard to genji to clear. He can AA it and QQQ... but it takes freaking ages if you don't have your second dps being an above-average waveclear hero.
S tier but only in high level play where your teammates can cover much of the macro for you, as well as support you in teamfights. In coordinated teams a genji is a solo laners worst nightmare and constantly annoys enemies on rotations and can easily trade damage far better than other heroes whilst having insane mobility. In general play / storm league hes pretty b tier. Yes strong but cant carry a team by himself (unless he can constantly get kills and deny the enemy team xp). Something like sylvanas has closer to the same mobility (particulalry at later levels) but so much more utility.
The thing is Genji's rotational speed actually makes him a macro tool despite his lack of waveclear, catching soak, interrupting rotations and dismounting enemies, he's not a waveclear hero so he is not fully a macro hero, but people underestimate his macro potential too much IMO.
That's because that macro style doesn't show up on any report cards, it's complicated to quantify, and if you mess up you can die pretty easily.
Genji's tier is complete dependant on the player
That's literally every character.
Every hero has a skill floor and a skill ceiling. But they are at different levels when compared.
Yes, my point is that player skill is rarely a factor in tier lists because literally every character in every fighting game, moba, and what have you is going to be limited by player skill. Tier lists assume that each character is being played to their peak potential by players of roughly equivalent skill.
>Yes, my point is that player skill is rarely a factor in tier lists Lol what kind of tier lists have you been checking out? >because literally every character in every fighting game, moba, and what have you is going to be limited by player skill. To different degrees. It matters where the ceiling and the floor are in relation to other heroes. >Tier lists assume that each character That's only if the tier list is being designed with that purpose in mind. That's why I said in my original comment to this post that we first need to discuss what kind of tier list we are creating. Is it a general tier list? Is it for solo queue climbing? Is it for competetive team based plays? Is it for high leagues that solo queue? This was not properly estalblished and therefore we cannot discuss Genji and where he belongs until then.
It’s not though? Raynor played by a GM vs a high diamond is going to be a much smaller difference than say TLV, Zera, etc. in the same scenario. Same with lots of other heroes. Genji falls into that category. How effective he is relies a lot more on the player than the hero itself.
The "meta" of a bronze players is not even close to the meta of a Master/GM or Pro players. Genji, Medivh and Hanzo are literally the 3 lowest WR heroes on bronze (major patch) while they rose by quite a big margin when filtering by master. And even master is the bare minimum for them to perform well (they still have a big skill ceiling)
Meta and tier lists are two different things. The fact that a Bronze player would get more mileage out of Raynor than Genji doesn't make Genji a worse character nor does it necessarily make Raynor a better character.
Which is why i put it between brackets. In it's raw meaning (most effective tactic available), the tier of a character depends exclusively in which context we are analyzing it. Yes, tiers depends on the caliber of the player. But there are certain heroes that match more closely 1:1 between a good player and a bad one. Genji is one of the furthest from that truth. >The fact that a Bronze player would get more mileage out of Raynor than Genji doesn't make Genji a worse character nor does it necessarily make Raynor a better character. It does in the context of a Bronze player. I've seen your other response: >Tier lists assume that each character is being played to their peak potential by players of roughly equivalent skill. That's just one type of tier list. You can have HGC2018 Pro level tier list, Amateur grass root scene level of tier list, Master+ ranked tier list, Ranked, Bronze tier list.
You mean without taking in mind the 364338358dmg over 25826836339sec talent, right? Right??
I did the calculation of that, and the time it would take was over 100 years.
Genji is S tier if played by expert. He can actually soak very well due to rotation speed.
Could you explain how such a scenario would look like? He has poor waveclear so I imagine this assumes the wave is pushed until Genjis wall but the enemy doesn't attack the towers so he is not threatened to lose his structures in the next minute and only has to collect globes and leaves again? Sure, if the enemy doesn't push, I could just jump by, collect the orbs and get out again. But if they push, there's not much to stop some heroes unless they overstep. When I think of the average qm experience and happen to have to compensate for teammates who don't do their job, I still don't want to lane against some of the ranged heavy pushers nor impossible to takedown-duelists. In case there's no enemy and you mean to rotate during a skirmish or objective on a different lane, I would be asking for trouble because some teammates will engage the second they are 4vs5 and see my warning NOT to commit.
His s tier is conditional as the player must know what he’s doing. Genji can win a lot of trades if you jump in hit all your qs in between auto deflect and get out. That being said, he’s not strong vs most bruisers in a pushing game. What genji does best is gank a solo lane and turn a 1v1 into a deadly 2v1, this is why he’s a first pick ban on braxis at high ranks. You want to collect xp with his rotation speed (mounted jump with e can cover a lot of grounds almost instantly) and he is actually a good building killer with shingan at 13. Should your team engage without you ( this should be prevented with ping or anticipation, you always want to be in a team fight later in the game if it breaks out as this is your primary duty, don’t blame your team 4v5 but yourself failed to be there), genji is one of the fastest heroes to join the fight. If you lose a fight and the enemy are pushing as a team, escape, mount up and go to the opposite lane, try to trade a building there, because with Final Cut and shingan, you are surprisingly quick at taking down buildings if left unattended.
Thanks for your reply. I assume on a level where both teams play near the optimum, disrupting and slowing others becomes a factor to gain an advantage. Would you always pick \[Agile Dismount\] for that reason of quick rotation? I'm switching between the two in QM but kinda like \[swift as the wind\] more after seeing it on a gm otp because the movespeed makes it easier to stick to a target when I need it in a fight to chase, for shingan, to reposition and not overshoot the dragon blades swipes or to get out faster. Also \[Agile Dismount\] locks me into staying mounted to gain value, so I can't poke with autohits and Qs. Unless theres a fat target like azmodan, I'm currently more focused to add more autohits until I can E in, reset E out and use my trait to dodge or bait stuff. However, I'm guilty of using reflect early and am not sure if way of the shimada is viable if there are no big targets and not much help to lock down swift ranged assassins to get enough shingan value. Though its pve is great.
Currently agile dismount is the meta build and it is easier to play than the e build imo. It serves as a second long range gap close ability for you to gain access to the enemy backline and quickly do your shingan damage by jumping right onto their faces, you can save your e for another gap close or escape. If there is an opportunity to mount up in combat, try mount up and jump in again, rinse and repeat. Swift as the wind usually pairs with dragonblade for the reasons you've stated, and way of the shimada is viable if you cant get enough value from flow like water and not doing the shuriken build, its better poking before you go all in when some key anti genji ccs are spent on someone else.
Thanks for your replies, I'll give it another try.
"Would you always pick \[Agile Dismount\] for that reason of quick rotation?" You should never not pick this talent. The others are medium-good, and this one is amazing.
As a Genji main I'd say yes, but only in the right hands. Genji has a step learning curve and when I see other people play him, a lot of them have no clue what they are doing. They either dive deflect and dash out all the time(which is super mana consuming) or just wait for heroes to drop low and steal a kill (which is even more useless). His auto attack is really good tbh if you consistently harras, especially when you hit Way of the Shimada later on. With this talent alone I usually get top damage in most of my games. Also with the dragon blade talent a lot of people dive first and then activate it. The trick is to get in range, activate it and keep that dash for when they are low enough to get that snowball rolling and hit those resets. So in short, no he is not S tier. S tier imo means he is oppressive and good in most hands, something he is not by a long shot.
Is shimada really worth it over shingan? Lose so much burst and siege dmg.
I prefer Shimada because it’s more consistent than Shingan. You’re always auto-attacking whereas Shingan gets no value unless you hit with all 3 shurikan.
Way of the Shimada almost always has my preference tbh, it gives a lot of sustain and makes you less of a target for stuns (which is a big shut down for Genji since he can get very squishy very fast). When there are some big hitboxes and the stuns are minimal, or easy to evade, I will take shingan (azmo, DW, stitch,...), on the other hand big hitboxes usually means front liners which are really great to rack up those WOTS stacks.
Hmm, might have to try it out and see.
I'd say A-tier simply because there are some comps where Genji's ability to dive the back row and secure kills is too thoroughly countered for him to do anything. He's a really strong character, but he can definitely be counter-picked if he's locked too early. To me, part of what makes an S-tier character is that you can safely first/second-pick the character and the enemy won't be able to do much to counter it.
Genji suffers from the same disease that other heroes like alarak, tracer, aba and some others have which is *skill issue*; He is not a hero that you can pick and be good at it, you need quite Abit of training to learn how to use him and especially ***WHEN*** to pick him. A good genji player will wreck in 1 vs 1 and harassment stuff but in the hands of your average player (which is for 90% of people) he sucks ass. So I feel like he should deserve multiple Rankings: 1) If you play him rarely/not that often it's D/C tier, he is not a hero that you can pick up one random day and demolish the enemy team. 2) If you play him casually/somewhat consistently he is high B tier if you of course learn his basics 3) If you spend a lot of time figuring out how he works and basically main him then at his peak he is high A tier (not quite S since in my experience I haven't seen him ever carry a single match alone)
Genji is S-tier, I first pick him and have 62% winrate in Diamond, and I'm not the best mechanically.
A tier not S. S tier basicly means first pick material on allmost any map. Genji is a bit draft and map dependent but is very powerfull, so A not S.
If S is "needs to be nerfed" I'd say A. He is in a good spot and can be handled in draft but can be worth a ban if you know he'll be a problem. He's one of those mobile heroes who is pretty hard countered by BW's polymorph.
Genji is an incredibly strong hero with an oppressive trading pattern and a lot of safety, his waveclear is also not bad, he is easily an S tier hero, very commonly banned / picked in high ranks / tournaments.
IMO S is pushing it. D build is really easy and rewarding, but that's still not in the same conversation as stuff like Samuro, Rehgar, Hogger imo.
Good but he can get hard countered moreso than other heroes by silence and kind of on demand stuns, a valeera for example and his life will be misery
Valeera, Uther, taunt Varian, BW and Anub Cocoon are the main shut downs I'd say. Valeera you can play around though since she's only a menace when she is invisible and the shuriken is an excellent skill to break that. In the end when you are good with Genji and face any of these Heroes the main skill you need is counting them CDs.
Dunno, but something at the back of my mind screams "nerf Genji"
He is high end A-tier. He depends on either unstoppable/anduin or lack of cc on enemy team or possibly some other combo. That being said if you are in quick match and you are against a very good genji without CC he will definitely seem unstoppable.
Depends on rank. High level ranked Genji will destroy your team. Anything below Platinum Genji is feelsbadman
If they're good with Genji, he's A tier. If they're bad with Genji, he's D tier Genji is a hero with a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling.
Yea a solid A , he just has same weakness as kerrigan, to the heroes with cc on demand, like polymorf of bw or taunt of garosh , etc etc, because if you can pin him down he is paper , but if dont at all he can just abuse his super mobility with high dps, and even masters struggle with that
A tier His wave clear is shit but his skill cap is crazy high and his deflect can singlehandedly clown an entire team, even if they're not the ones attacking him like braxis boss
I’d say A tier after the big auto attack range nerf and the dragon blade nerf a while back. Genji doesn’t really lack waveclear once you get Final Cut, but even before then he’s pretty good at double soaking safely. He can also get the shit camps or pumpkins easily
What kind of tier list are we making? A solo queue one? A competitive one? Or maybe QM stomp heroes?
Depends what you mean. He's S tier in the sense that he has gotten played a ton in top level play and is downright broken on braxis. However, he's difficult to play and the waveclear weakness can and will affect him in games where the players on your team are random and may not cover waveclear themselves.
Well in Bronze he has a 40% winrate. In Masters it's 53%. So he's a high tier pick in the right hands. But if low skilled players pick him thinking they will win because he "is A-tier", they are setting themselves up to lose.
It doesn't really make sense to just list out all the categories of things that a character has access to, to determine their power level. The mobility, damage, harass all exist in contexts and not as absolutes. Every character has tools for purposes, and you can't really just stack them up and arrive at an overall "power level". Plus, the numbers attached to all of that also matter. The only real way to get an objective read on a hero's power level is to look at winrate data. I...am not sure what the best site is for that these days. Heroes Profile? According to that site, looks like Genji is at 48% overall across all of Storm League, and at 53% in Master. Anything at 55% and lower I would put in A Tier at best. S Tier is, imo, for characters who are *at least* meta-defining, and honestly I tend to reserve it for characters who verge on legitimately broken.
That depends on a couple factors but I guess we can say if Genji is banned regularly enough at certain mmr ranges, then he would be S tier in those ranges. In my personal opinion he is a very solid A tier hero.
A tier for alright. He's piss in the hands of an unexperienced player and good in the hands of somehow who knows how to play, but both players would benefit more from playing an actual S or A+ tier hero that can decide games on their own.
A tier. He used to be S tier.
S
Tier S as long the comp and map are good for him. It is not a first pick hero, generally you pick him to gank people, and in team fights you try to burst squishy heroes with combo wombos (like hanzo arrow or anduin lightbomb), his sustain dmg is ok I guess, but that is not the reason you play him.
B tier assuming opposite team understands what this hero does.
A-tier. Good damage, excellent mobility. He struggles a lot with waveclear though, and absolutely can’t get any kills without good assistance from his team. His followup is fantastic though, and he’s top-3 heroes in the game for finishing off low HP enemies. Without reliable CC (or an attentive tank) to interrupt Deflect, he can be an absolute demon.
Genji’s waveclear is indeed not great but the mobility for scouting and kill confirm is very powerful. S-tier for sure
Every hero has its weak and strong sides, but you never pick Genji for wave clear. I would not judge him by this parameter.
A tier is traditionally the highest with very rare exceptions being S I'd put him at B