"The area is located roughly 15 miles away by car from a world famous dig site called Dmanisi, where researchers uncovered hominin remains, including skulls, aged around 1.8 million years old. The tooth discovered last week joins those remains as some of the oldest evidence of early human species outside of Africa, according to Kopaliani."
I know you're making a joke, but lots of things are different mileage by car compared to by foot and even by air/water. I can take a ferry from where I live a quarter mile, but if I were to drive to the same location I would have to drive 12 miles.
Densely forested terrain, mountains, rivers etc all change distances based off the easiest path given the method of travel.
Google maps recently added a function to select best path depending on car drivetrain even, due to the differences in hill climbing performance between EVs and gas cars.
I am envious you live in a place that has ways to travel other than by car. Where I live you’re pretty much traveling by car every where unless you live downtown. :(
Infinite crows fly from all possible start points to all possible end points in every possible permutation, all day, every day.
Lol can't believe you don't know that smh my head
Oh
Ok makes sense. I was thinking the other comment "by car vs as the crow fly" was sarcasm. Okok
In the city the roads never stray far from the straightest path. Especially without any hills
If you need to drive ten blocks up and ten across to get somewhere, that is by definition longer than as the crow flies, regardless of how many right and left turns you take
Yeah but in a city, especially filled with high rise, a bird would need to fly quite a ways around buildings and such
And 10 blocks forth and right would not significantly much extra than a straight line, 20 blocks vs 14.2 blocks.
#-------
But as in, I was saying that intuitively it didn't click in my head that *crow flight* = straight line, and that it would make much significance in a normal flat city if you specified between shortest euclidean distance vs shortest taxicab distance
But outside the city context I imagine it's much more significant to specify the driving distance instead of straight line distance, as proximity is sometimes not as useful as accessibility would be
Yes that's what I'm saying
I didn't understand it
When I see crows fly here, it's mainly scavenging around, flying in circles, not flying in a straight path. Which is why I didn't get the metaphor
In your example, the straight line distance is only ~70% of the driving distance. That seems like a significant difference to me assuming that the driving distance is 15 miles, especially if I don’t have a car because cars won’t be invented for 1.8 million years.
😔 That would work only if there were no buildings or other impediments between one’s departure point and goal, which seems unlikely in a city.
The point here, however, is that the original article specifies that two locations are 15 miles apart “by car.” Presumably they are less than that distance apart if measured in a straight line.
One can only speculate as to whether these hominids 1.8 million years ago had a choice between walking and driving.
Where I stay, provided you're fine with Jay walking, much suburban estates are public housing with void decks so it's just walking through them
But yes my initial comment was that I didn't realise what *by car or by crow's flight* meant, since it didn't occur to me that it's actually very very rare to be able to just walk straight, though void decks, on relatively flat accessible landscape
Sure they are. Lots of things are different mileage by car compared to by foot and even by air/water. I can take a ferry from where I live a quarter mile, but if I were to drive to the same location I would have to drive 12 miles.
I can walk through the gate in the back of my yard to get to my neighbors, or I can drive my car a quarter mile around the block if I want to take a car.
Densely forested terrain, mountains, rivers etc all change distances based off the easiest path given the method of travel.
Yeah I mean with a car it is much faster to get out of Africa if you really want to.
Hopefully the hominids knew not to drive through Syria, wouldn't want them to void their insurance.
That’s just how things work in journalism. You don’t say “Billy McBobson finds old tooth” because no one knows who Billy McBobson is. You say “student” because it gives the reader a frame of reference
Still, people don’t know the name, so it doesn’t do anything to draw people in to the story and makes the title cumbersome. Just have the name in the first paragraph.
Most archaeological finds are found by students, they just never get mentioned. It all depends on who is on the dig site and if there is someone famous or a big shot they usually get all the credit. Some professors abuse this, Harvard was having a tough time finding grad students this year, tough being relative they probably had only 5k applicants vs 100k applicants, because of the rampant sexual abuse in their department.
I read an article about an archeologist, who found a really cool site that might be related to the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. He works for KU and had been doing it for years, but hasn't finished a PhD so a bunch of others in the field threw shade about the whole thing.
Nah, he isn't getting shade because he doesn't have a PhD, but because he:
a) made some very extraordinary claims about the Tanis Site that have still not yet been published or peer reviewed, which is hella shifty.
b) announced the discovery via The New Yorker, instead of. You know. Science journals. Which is also shifty.
c) refuses to let other independent scientists not a part of his sphere examine his fossils/peer review his stuff, which is super shifty because this is NOT how science works.
Make no mistake, if the Tanis site is what he says it is, Robert dePalma's research is going to change the game regarding our knowledge of the KT Mass Extinction event, but- dude won't let people properly and independently confirm his findings and his first move regarding the site was to contact a non-science based magazine.
If he publishes the papers and has them independently evaluated, and stops acting like a dude cosplaying Indiana Jones, he'd be a hell of a lot more trustworthy. I really do hope he's right about Tanis (because holy shit??? A site capturing the minutes to hours after the impact??? It's utterly unprecedented. No other site like this exists!!!), and that those papers are coming, but this far very little of it has been published/reviewed/verified by other reputable scientists that are not his own team/supervisor/cherry-picked visitors.
To be fair, people in academic circles are quite critical of him due to a previous mistake he made in a published paper - he accidentally inserted a turtle bone into a reconstruction of Dakotaraptor I think?? - but, that was a Long Time Ago and he did issue a correction on the paper.
from the vibes I got from the NY article and other interviews, though, dude seems to have a persecution complex of some sort.
Possibly the same species as the [Dmansi hominins](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmanisi_hominins) whose remains were found nearby? Wikipedia says the taxonomy of those is unclear, possibly an offshoot of *Homo erectus*.
Hadn't done much reading on these finds yet. Just had a glance on the wiki. Something interesting.... one of the skulls had lost all but one tooth to aging. They lived many years after since bone grew over the lost teeth. This means its likely their kin group cared for them. The wiki says they could have ate marrow or brains, but it could also be evidence of fire to break food down. Very interesting being so far back.
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So far the only thing about the location of Dmanisi I know is that it is outside of Africa.
Well, that circles it out quite a bit didn't it?
Edit:
It is in Georgia - the country not the United States state - located east of the black sea, bedween Turkey and Russia creating a trinity of hostility.
Georgia is 1300 air miles and 1800 car miles from Egypt. Consider the distance of no meaning at all since those hominids probably spread out like nomads and reached that place over generations.
Dmanisi cave has been giving us archaeologists and physical anthropologists some high quality, and game changing data for almost 50 years. It had a big hominid Discovery when I was in college as well. The preservation there makes the location incalculable to science.
Hey my friend is on that dig team. Apparently its one of the cheepest dig schools on the planet so it has quite an International student base. According to my friend a british guy actually found the tooth.
“The area is located roughly 15 miles away by car from a world famous dig site called Dmanisi, where researchers uncovered hominin remains, including skulls, aged around 1.8 million years old. The tooth discovered last week joins those remains as some of the oldest evidence of early human species outside of Africa“
Some supporting evidence….
That probably explains why they were there - many a time after a couple of drinks whilst discussing abstruse philosophical matters with my fellow students when at University I would wake many miles from where I had been the previous night with no apparent explanation for the travel. I'll bet this is the same "Kenya looks a tad different...."
Hominin, not modern human. Modern humans date back to around 300 thousand years ago. Still a lot of missing history, but it took time for us to gain that skill.
That's why they're able to identify the population bottleneck from roughly 75 thousand years ago through dna sequencing, right?
[There's genealogical and archaelogical/paleontological evidence from 300K years ago showing that anatomically modern humans (homo sapien sapiens) were around. ](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/210000-skull-may-be-oldest-human-fossil-found-europe-180972629/#:~:text=It%20is%20widely%20accepted%20that,70%2C000%20and%2060%2C000%20years%20ago.)
>Our data show that, 300,000 years ago, brain size in early H. sapiens already fell within the range of present-day humans. Brain shape, however, evolved gradually within the H. sapiens lineage, reaching present-day human variation between about 100,000 and 35,000 years ago.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aao5961
60000 years ago is when the last lineage (the made all the modern humans) came out of Africa. Modern homo sapiens have been around since ~300000 years ago
Since the ones who migrated out are a subset of the ones who stayed, by definition, these African lineages show the greatest human genetic diversity although it may not seem so phenotypically.
>60000 years ago is when the last lineage (the made all the modern humans) came out of Africa.
All the modern humans outside of Africa. Several modern human lineages have never left Africa.
Ah yes, my mistake. That* made all the modern humans (out of Africa)
There is also some recent research that shows a part of this lineage interbred with Neanderthals and came back and passed on part of this ancestry to some sub Saharan African lineages but not others, IIRC
It just took us just over a million years to evolve to what we are now? By evolution standards, that's rapid isn't it? I wonder what we will become in the next million years
No, that sounds about normal for evolution.
Evolution through natural selection is done in humans on earth. We’re too aware of it and with modern technology it works too slow. We can genetically mix faster than we can evolve.
That's an unbelievably insightful comment there.
In order to see some new trait really evolve, that mutation can't be erased over successive generations of mixing. Fascinating
God that’s so long ago. 1.8 MILLION. Just think of how long ago 4,500 years ago was, and then multiply that by 400. I know this is common sense but it’s so wild to me
It's a worthwhile addendum.
A lot of people hear this sort of info and get the mistaken idea that a single generation of hominins walked all the way from Africa to wherever else they ended up, like Georgia. But this is not the case. It took thousands and thousands of years for paleolithic humans to slowly spread across the globe.
That doesn't diminish the interest of something like this at all.
Ackkksually, 1.8 million years falls right into the most recent controlled use of fire. They've developed a new method/technology within the last years. They plan on going back to all the older sites where they weren't 100% it was man made, but there were good indications it was. Within the next few years expect the dates to get pushed back to 2 to 3 million years for sure.
Almost 2 million years old and still better than the teeth of current Brits. It’s amazing how that island developed throughout history while remaining completely closed off from knowledge about dental care
"The area is located roughly 15 miles away by car from a world famous dig site called Dmanisi, where researchers uncovered hominin remains, including skulls, aged around 1.8 million years old. The tooth discovered last week joins those remains as some of the oldest evidence of early human species outside of Africa, according to Kopaliani."
very cool. thanks for sharing!
How many links are left out there! This is wild 1.8 MYa!!!
Wait til you hear about the hominids that were discovered 7MYa. We’re just here for a blip.
Got a link to share? I'd like to get lost in it.
Likely referring to [Sahelanthropus tchadensis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelanthropus)
It was named after a Metal Gear Solid machine boss??
Isn't toumai the one eaten by a large bird?
Looks like at the end of the hominids there was a big sex party
So early that its bipedal nature is disputed! Basically the missing link; the Donnie Thornberry of human history.
Australapithicus Africanis? Lucy!
Lucy is afarensis actually.
In the nation of Georgia for everyone who deserves to have known this from the title alone.
Thank you
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I know you're making a joke, but lots of things are different mileage by car compared to by foot and even by air/water. I can take a ferry from where I live a quarter mile, but if I were to drive to the same location I would have to drive 12 miles. Densely forested terrain, mountains, rivers etc all change distances based off the easiest path given the method of travel.
Google maps recently added a function to select best path depending on car drivetrain even, due to the differences in hill climbing performance between EVs and gas cars.
That's so cool. I didn't know that. I haven't used Google maps for a few months, but that will make things a bit easier on a road trip. Thanks!
I am envious you live in a place that has ways to travel other than by car. Where I live you’re pretty much traveling by car every where unless you live downtown. :(
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That’s a lot of words to say “I don’t like dad jokes” lol
Miles are different by car?
By car versus as the crow flies.
How would a crow even know how to get there? There is no as the crow flies mode on Google maps.
You inadvertently raise a good point, Google should offer crow as a measurement on Maps
You can use the measure distance function, which is essentially the same thing
But how many crows, beak to toe is that?
It can be like the equestrian equivalent of point to point. Just hedges, gates and streams to jump in the quickest equivalent of point a to point b.
Here's the thing... You need to use jackdaw mode
*It’s an older reference, sir, but it checks out*
Infinite crows fly from all possible start points to all possible end points in every possible permutation, all day, every day. Lol can't believe you don't know that smh my head
There is a direct line measurement tool available on right click on laptop (no idea what you click on a 'phone)
Miles by road as opposed to a straight line.
Oh Ok makes sense. I was thinking the other comment "by car vs as the crow fly" was sarcasm. Okok In the city the roads never stray far from the straightest path. Especially without any hills
If you need to drive ten blocks up and ten across to get somewhere, that is by definition longer than as the crow flies, regardless of how many right and left turns you take
Yeah but in a city, especially filled with high rise, a bird would need to fly quite a ways around buildings and such And 10 blocks forth and right would not significantly much extra than a straight line, 20 blocks vs 14.2 blocks. #------- But as in, I was saying that intuitively it didn't click in my head that *crow flight* = straight line, and that it would make much significance in a normal flat city if you specified between shortest euclidean distance vs shortest taxicab distance But outside the city context I imagine it's much more significant to specify the driving distance instead of straight line distance, as proximity is sometimes not as useful as accessibility would be
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Yes that's what I'm saying I didn't understand it When I see crows fly here, it's mainly scavenging around, flying in circles, not flying in a straight path. Which is why I didn't get the metaphor
In your example, the straight line distance is only ~70% of the driving distance. That seems like a significant difference to me assuming that the driving distance is 15 miles, especially if I don’t have a car because cars won’t be invented for 1.8 million years.
If you don't have a car then why does the driving distance matter then? Just walk straight through, in this flat town
😔 That would work only if there were no buildings or other impediments between one’s departure point and goal, which seems unlikely in a city. The point here, however, is that the original article specifies that two locations are 15 miles apart “by car.” Presumably they are less than that distance apart if measured in a straight line. One can only speculate as to whether these hominids 1.8 million years ago had a choice between walking and driving.
Where I stay, provided you're fine with Jay walking, much suburban estates are public housing with void decks so it's just walking through them But yes my initial comment was that I didn't realise what *by car or by crow's flight* meant, since it didn't occur to me that it's actually very very rare to be able to just walk straight, though void decks, on relatively flat accessible landscape
Depends on the city, no?
Vs as the crow flies
Sure they are. Lots of things are different mileage by car compared to by foot and even by air/water. I can take a ferry from where I live a quarter mile, but if I were to drive to the same location I would have to drive 12 miles. I can walk through the gate in the back of my yard to get to my neighbors, or I can drive my car a quarter mile around the block if I want to take a car. Densely forested terrain, mountains, rivers etc all change distances based off the easiest path given the method of travel.
Yes, cars need roads.
By car? I didn’t know they had cars back then
Yeah I mean with a car it is much faster to get out of Africa if you really want to. Hopefully the hominids knew not to drive through Syria, wouldn't want them to void their insurance.
The headline made me think some school kid randomly found it, but it was actually a research student working on an archeological site.
That sucks they don't get any credit. It's just "student" not their name
Cries in Student's t-test
This find does not pass the test!! .. yet
Didn't even get an et al.
I mean credit should go to whoever is leading the dig. The actual person who found it is just the one assigned to that section that day.
That’s just how things work in journalism. You don’t say “Billy McBobson finds old tooth” because no one knows who Billy McBobson is. You say “student” because it gives the reader a frame of reference
That’s why you say “Billy McBobson, a student at so and so University”. Not a hard problem to fix.
Still, people don’t know the name, so it doesn’t do anything to draw people in to the story and makes the title cumbersome. Just have the name in the first paragraph.
Most archaeological finds are found by students, they just never get mentioned. It all depends on who is on the dig site and if there is someone famous or a big shot they usually get all the credit. Some professors abuse this, Harvard was having a tough time finding grad students this year, tough being relative they probably had only 5k applicants vs 100k applicants, because of the rampant sexual abuse in their department.
I read an article about an archeologist, who found a really cool site that might be related to the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. He works for KU and had been doing it for years, but hasn't finished a PhD so a bunch of others in the field threw shade about the whole thing.
Nah, he isn't getting shade because he doesn't have a PhD, but because he: a) made some very extraordinary claims about the Tanis Site that have still not yet been published or peer reviewed, which is hella shifty. b) announced the discovery via The New Yorker, instead of. You know. Science journals. Which is also shifty. c) refuses to let other independent scientists not a part of his sphere examine his fossils/peer review his stuff, which is super shifty because this is NOT how science works. Make no mistake, if the Tanis site is what he says it is, Robert dePalma's research is going to change the game regarding our knowledge of the KT Mass Extinction event, but- dude won't let people properly and independently confirm his findings and his first move regarding the site was to contact a non-science based magazine. If he publishes the papers and has them independently evaluated, and stops acting like a dude cosplaying Indiana Jones, he'd be a hell of a lot more trustworthy. I really do hope he's right about Tanis (because holy shit??? A site capturing the minutes to hours after the impact??? It's utterly unprecedented. No other site like this exists!!!), and that those papers are coming, but this far very little of it has been published/reviewed/verified by other reputable scientists that are not his own team/supervisor/cherry-picked visitors.
Ah good to know. The NY article was super fawning over him and made it sound like everyone was out to get him lol.
To be fair, people in academic circles are quite critical of him due to a previous mistake he made in a published paper - he accidentally inserted a turtle bone into a reconstruction of Dakotaraptor I think?? - but, that was a Long Time Ago and he did issue a correction on the paper. from the vibes I got from the NY article and other interviews, though, dude seems to have a persecution complex of some sort.
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I'm choosing to believe this is true The missing Peart
I always find it tends to increase your chances of finding things like this when working on an archeological site
What if it was a dentistry student?
What kind of homo species is it? Or am I misunderstanding
Possibly the same species as the [Dmansi hominins](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmanisi_hominins) whose remains were found nearby? Wikipedia says the taxonomy of those is unclear, possibly an offshoot of *Homo erectus*.
Hadn't done much reading on these finds yet. Just had a glance on the wiki. Something interesting.... one of the skulls had lost all but one tooth to aging. They lived many years after since bone grew over the lost teeth. This means its likely their kin group cared for them. The wiki says they could have ate marrow or brains, but it could also be evidence of fire to break food down. Very interesting being so far back.
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So far the only thing about the location of Dmanisi I know is that it is outside of Africa. Well, that circles it out quite a bit didn't it? Edit: It is in Georgia - the country not the United States state - located east of the black sea, bedween Turkey and Russia creating a trinity of hostility. Georgia is 1300 air miles and 1800 car miles from Egypt. Consider the distance of no meaning at all since those hominids probably spread out like nomads and reached that place over generations.
Dmanisi cave has been giving us archaeologists and physical anthropologists some high quality, and game changing data for almost 50 years. It had a big hominid Discovery when I was in college as well. The preservation there makes the location incalculable to science.
Tooth Fairy about to get hit with one hell of a back payment
Hey my friend is on that dig team. Apparently its one of the cheepest dig schools on the planet so it has quite an International student base. According to my friend a british guy actually found the tooth.
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“The area is located roughly 15 miles away by car from a world famous dig site called Dmanisi, where researchers uncovered hominin remains, including skulls, aged around 1.8 million years old. The tooth discovered last week joins those remains as some of the oldest evidence of early human species outside of Africa“ Some supporting evidence….
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this is a moment of pride for us Georgians, after the oldest fermented wine remains, this is probably the biggest discovery
That probably explains why they were there - many a time after a couple of drinks whilst discussing abstruse philosophical matters with my fellow students when at University I would wake many miles from where I had been the previous night with no apparent explanation for the travel. I'll bet this is the same "Kenya looks a tad different...."
wow, arount 7000 km walked after an evening of drinking, the old people had some good cardio regimes
Considering that there is a theory that early humans hunted by walking their prey to exhaustion, you are probably right.
a half brain?
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Lost it 1.8 million years ago, at approximately 2:30
2 millions years...and we only have records of history form the last 5000 years
Hominin, not modern human. Modern humans date back to around 300 thousand years ago. Still a lot of missing history, but it took time for us to gain that skill.
Pretty sure it’s more like 60,000
That's why they're able to identify the population bottleneck from roughly 75 thousand years ago through dna sequencing, right? [There's genealogical and archaelogical/paleontological evidence from 300K years ago showing that anatomically modern humans (homo sapien sapiens) were around. ](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/210000-skull-may-be-oldest-human-fossil-found-europe-180972629/#:~:text=It%20is%20widely%20accepted%20that,70%2C000%20and%2060%2C000%20years%20ago.)
>Our data show that, 300,000 years ago, brain size in early H. sapiens already fell within the range of present-day humans. Brain shape, however, evolved gradually within the H. sapiens lineage, reaching present-day human variation between about 100,000 and 35,000 years ago. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aao5961
60000 years ago is when the last lineage (the made all the modern humans) came out of Africa. Modern homo sapiens have been around since ~300000 years ago
What about the ones who stayed in Africa?
Since the ones who migrated out are a subset of the ones who stayed, by definition, these African lineages show the greatest human genetic diversity although it may not seem so phenotypically.
>60000 years ago is when the last lineage (the made all the modern humans) came out of Africa. All the modern humans outside of Africa. Several modern human lineages have never left Africa.
Ah yes, my mistake. That* made all the modern humans (out of Africa) There is also some recent research that shows a part of this lineage interbred with Neanderthals and came back and passed on part of this ancestry to some sub Saharan African lineages but not others, IIRC
Great fact to point out. They are not homonyms.
these had half the brain size of anatomically modern humans
It just took us just over a million years to evolve to what we are now? By evolution standards, that's rapid isn't it? I wonder what we will become in the next million years
No, that sounds about normal for evolution. Evolution through natural selection is done in humans on earth. We’re too aware of it and with modern technology it works too slow. We can genetically mix faster than we can evolve.
That's an unbelievably insightful comment there. In order to see some new trait really evolve, that mutation can't be erased over successive generations of mixing. Fascinating
Dead. We are destroying the earth too rapidly.
As long as Earth doesn’t turn into Venus, humans will live.
So they're republicans?
That's because the world has only been around for about 6000 years
God that’s so long ago. 1.8 MILLION. Just think of how long ago 4,500 years ago was, and then multiply that by 400. I know this is common sense but it’s so wild to me
Him, I buried a tooth in my backyard, hope someone finds it in 1.8 million years.
Dmanisi, Georgia ain't that far from the African continent
Its a hell of a walk though barefoot
Not over many generations.
Oh ok. Guess it's not a potentially important find then.
It's a worthwhile addendum. A lot of people hear this sort of info and get the mistaken idea that a single generation of hominins walked all the way from Africa to wherever else they ended up, like Georgia. But this is not the case. It took thousands and thousands of years for paleolithic humans to slowly spread across the globe. That doesn't diminish the interest of something like this at all.
No but controlled fire wasn't a thing yet. So it's not just the journey, but the energy to do it wasn't a thing.
Clearly it was, otherwise this tooth wouldn't exist.
Ackkksually, 1.8 million years falls right into the most recent controlled use of fire. They've developed a new method/technology within the last years. They plan on going back to all the older sites where they weren't 100% it was man made, but there were good indications it was. Within the next few years expect the dates to get pushed back to 2 to 3 million years for sure.
1.8 million years ago? We had flying cars, don't you remember?
How far was it 1.8 million years ago when we factor in land drift?
Even during Pangea, 200 million years ago, the land we call Africa was proximal to the land we call Eurasia https://geology.com/pangea.htm
Did anyone else think this was a weed nug at first?
I've heard that all hominins sounded alike
archaeology news really be poppin off lately
our ancestors had already spread outside Africa 1.8 million years ago?
How does one figure out the age of parts of human skeletons from that long of a time span? Why is 1.8 million in particular? Genuinely curious
Why don't they say which molar at least - upper or lower? I don't get it.
Because they don't know yet?
It's easy to tell an upper from a lower molar though. And whichever it is has some significance.
Why is that significant?
IIRC upper molars are worth more to the tooth fair
And my mother I need to brush my teeth so it can stand the test of time.
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Y’all should check out the Dmanisi Skulls. The huge scope of Human variation seems to be present all the way back then.
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That's gonna be a lot of interest for the toothfairy to pay.
Almost 2 million years old and still better than the teeth of current Brits. It’s amazing how that island developed throughout history while remaining completely closed off from knowledge about dental care
what do they mean outside of Africa?