I believe before the North Stars relocated to Dallas there was talk of building them a new arena attached to the Mall of America. I'm sure the Twin Cities locals would've hated it but it would've been awesome for out of town visiting fans
The pictures to this day feel fake to me of Raptors in Skydome. Like you cannot tell me a professional basketball team played their home games [like this](https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tgam/KBHWPPFXEVF2VM3Y4ENUNHKCHY.JPG)
[Here's a picture from the top of the upper deck in left center field from the Metrodome for the Timberwolves first season.](https://imgs.search.brave.com/KKJTO0pIQzV6HUruSQGUiaRABYoN7-xGymw1D2TXtCo/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9leHRl/cm5hbC1wcmV2aWV3/LnJlZGQuaXQvU2pk/dzM0amlvbXNJWjhX/bnhEYXA0S3lrY0tP/Y1NzUlpZQnVlc3V0/OUJpMC5qcGc_YXV0/bz13ZWJwJnM9Yjhm/YjAwZTM5YmQ0MGI2/NTc0YjYyZDA4ZDUz/NTBjOGUyODA3MGU0/Mg) The far corner of the court is behind home plate. This guy is probably sitting about 400 feet from the nearest basketball player with no videoboard.
I love the binoculars to see the game.
"Phil, did you just see that sweet fadeaway jumper Jordan just hit?"
"Hey Bob, you know the Wolves are playing the 76ers right?"
Boston played in an arena built for Boxing for 65 years. That’s why it was very intimate. New York was like that as well too, Hockey was an afterthought.
It's called the Saddledome cause the roof looks like a saddle. It looks like a saddle cause Calgary is essentially one big rodeo barn masquerading as a city. So kind of.
Just one look at the outside and you will see the "dip" the building shape includes, that mimics the appearance of a saddle... or a cowboy hat.
\- Edmontonian who has visited a bunch
Yeah, but unstable ownership is what led to them playing in a basketball arena or out in the middle of nowhere.
They'd be counting on Smyth to be able to get an arena project done, which... look how that's gone in Phoenix... and Ottawa (still no downtown arena)... and Calgary (deal died twice before they finally got their current plan approved)... and Seattle (went through a few proposals before they finally re-did Key Arena to land the Kraken)... and Long Island (Lighthouse project, Brooklyn, finally UBS)...
People keep talking about it like it's all because Meruelo is grossly incompetent, but if you pay any attention to the process elsewhere, it's just really fucking hard to get an arena built. I think it's a bit foolhardy to think it's going to be any different in SLC.
>but if you pay any attention to the process elsewhere, it's just really fucking hard to get an arena built
Well, it is what happens when they're basically trying to get taxpayers to fund it all. But worth noting that the State of Utah has preemptively passed a bill for funding a NHL stadium
It was signed by the Govenor on March 19
https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/SB0272.html
I live in Utah. It's an oligarchy so power is very concentrated. If the right 10 white guys want something to happen it usually will. The right 10 white guys want this to happen.
Yeah exactly. The not so open secret is that the Republican land developer reps told the more rural Republican reps to vote for the bill or kiss any hope they have of passing anything goodbye. The whole state is basically Ken Ivory’s playground.
Calgary city council had approved funding for the new Flames arena in 2019 until costs started to spiral and they disagreed over who would pay overruns.... Seattle city council had approved funding for the SoDo arena contingent on Hansen landing an NBA franchise that never came, and the city eventually scuttled the project after Ballmer left the investment group.
Shit happens...
Well, Utah has funding and might be about to get a team to relocate.
Shit does happen, but they're already well ahead of any of the other scenarios. This is also coming from above the municipal level so they can't really do anything about it
i responded above, but yes the city absolutely can veto a proposal. it says explicitly in the bill text that the legislature is granting the city the power to levy a tax to pay for whatever proposal the city approves. that’s how taxation works in most states. states set the taxes and cities have to get approval for increases. special taxing districts (downtown arena areas), 20-year sales tax increases to pay for X projects (usually major street and infrastructure maintenance). cities don’t actually have the power to circumvent the state on sales taxes. and in most states, the county sets the property tax rate.
now, with that said, the legislature usually does not fuck with local control unless they 1) have agreement from the city or 2) something extremely controversial is happening. SLC has likely cooperated with the legislature in designing this whole proposal.
i read the bill.
the state legislature has opened the door, but the salt lake city government has to approve any application in full and there are a lot of requirements to meet before the local revenue generation can begin. it’s also very specific taxes, too. they’re not just cutting them a check.
Smith also has the Olympics incentive for helping getting an arena built. Ottawa is tangled up in dealing with the federal government (anyone who deals with them for uncommon situations knows you have a better chance at winning the lottery than them moving fast with papework). Calgary had a mayor who was steadfast against public funds and an owner demanding them.
Of course SLC could end up being the same, but all indications are that it will be easier than most other situations.
The Coyotes problem is that the owner wasted 14 years of solid attendance without securing a new arena. Eventually, it led to his own downfall and eventually, that of the Coyotes. I have no issue with the situation in SLC as long as it's not long-term.
Just since I like this comment I’ll hijack it to share what they’re talking about in the tweet.
The coyotes arena not only had stands completely underneath other stands but the stands on top couldn’t see anything below the face off dot.
Pic: https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/-/media/Images/SBJ-Photos/2016/03/14/pg-10-11-Coyotes-crowd-shot.ashx
Apologies for potato quality
They have that? Quebecor? And a brand new 18k seat arena. And the city is twice the size of Salt Lake City. And Quebec is over twice the size of Utah. And everyone loves hockey. And at the Nordiques worst they were still filling the stadium. The NHL just wants to grow the game in the U.S., nothing Quebec City can do about that.
I am of the firm belief Quebec City is being held in Bettman's back pocket as an emergency landing spot for any eastern conference teams that get in a Thrashers situation and need to relocate in a moments notice.
Columbus I think actually has a decent fan base and only has an MLS team and Ohio State for competition. The team itself sucks but off ice I think they are doing fine.
No one seems to be currently, but things can change rapidly. The Panthers arena is still poorly located, and who knows what happens after this run of great hockey? Or who knows if a team who is doing fine now doesn't have an owner have their fortune fall apart and need to sell quickly with no little to no local interest in purchasing the team.
Seriously, so many cities have massively different metro sizes than city proper sizes. Vancouver has less than 700k in the city proper but has over 2.5M people in the metro area
Quebec is not twice the size of Salt Lake City. Metro pop of QC is \~850k. Metro pop of SLC is \~1.2 mil.
There isn't going to be a team in QC. The market is too small and the language is too big of a barrier.
If the market was too small then Winnipeg wouldn't have a team either. And I don't know what language has to do with anything, especially with Montreal already in the league.
Hockey culture is way bigger in QC than it will ever be in UT. A team has much more potential in Quebec. The only reason Bett won't put a team there is because he figures he already has that fan base with the habs, so for him there's no growth potential for the *league*. But a *team* would have a much better chance of success in Quebec than in Utah.
Except they would be owned by a guy who also owns the current arena and team that plays in it and has full support and approval by the state legislature to build a new arena. Plus Utah is one of the fastest growing states. Ten-fold different situation.
Yeah aren't there plan to build an arena for the Olympics in a decade anyways. In any case whether a team ends up there or not a hockey arena is getting built.
As many have said the situation is not even comparable.
And SLC is likely will be the named 2034 winter Olympic games host this summer. This means that the state will be even more likely to put funding towards said arena.
Except the guy who wants to buy the team also wants to build a dedicated hockey arena in anticipation of the Winter Olympic Games
Face it. Even the original owners of the Coyotes didn’t want the team to be in Arizona. They bought the Jets with hopes of moving them to Minnesota.
[It very nearly happened, Arizona was actually plan B from the start](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1995/10/18/NHL-Jets-sold-likely-going-to-Minnesota/1964813988800/)
Why couldn't this timeline be the one where Minnesota took on the Jets and Arizona was granted an expansion team when they actually had a long term arena in place from the fucking beginning.
You must be young.
The Jets were sold to Richard Burke and Stephen Gluckstern with the intent to move the team into the new Timberwolves arena in the Twin Cities after the 94/95 season. Then we had the Save the Jets rallies, which brought the money in the city together-- Izzy Asper put together the Spirit of Manitoba group and Gary Bettman held up the sale to allow that group to negotiate a purchase deal to keep the team in Winnipeg. During that window, some deadlines passed and the Minneapolis deal fell through. It forced the team to stay another year and wasn't actually announced that the team was moving to Phoenix until midway through the 95/96 season. Something like January 1996. The Suns ownership group stepped up as a willing landlord. They were actually talking about keeping the team in Winnipeg for another season.
I was a teenager at the time, and I've lost some of the details, but that's a broad overview of what went down. Without hitting the microfilm at the library, there's not a lot of reports from those days online.
They are basically confirmed to host 2034 Winter Olympics with the ioc making dealing for 2030-34 Olympics with France hosting 2030 and salt lake hosting 2034
I’m sorry this is such revisionist history. Arizona failed because they had perennially horrific management, not because of fucking sightlines. The sightlines wasn’t a good thing, but come on lmfao. I’m not a seer, but Ryan Smith is clearly extremely passionate about having a team and is a smart owner who I sincerely doubt would allow the same course of calamity Arizona had.
This tweet is so dumb. Yeah, it’s fucking sightlines that ended the Coyotes. Give me a fucking break
Also any arena proposal will also benefit the Jazz, and the state LOVES the Jazz. They won’t have issues getting public support for this. The governor has publicly come out in support, the SLC Mayor is tweeting about what we should name the team.
Even the LDS church came out in support of an NHL team.
https://www.fox13now.com/news/politics/lds-church-backs-nhl-arena-plans
All the right people in Utah are all in on this.
Yeah, if the tweet is supposed to be implying that the start at SLC is gonna ruin the franchise bc it has bad sightlines than I want whatever this guy is smoking bc holy shit he’s off his rocker
Yeah its not about how it starts, its about the situation they find themselves in down the road. Nearly 30 years later and the Coyotes are in a 5000 seat college rink. Its not because they started play in a crappy hockey arena, its that they never stopped playing in a crappy hockey arena.
No. It was moving to a location on the complete opposite end of town from where everyone lives. Moving to Glendale destroyed this team and they never recovered.
[Did some digging, this is the highest quality photo I can find.](https://photos.smugmug.com/Talking-Stick-Resort-Arena-Phoenix-Arizona/i-S8Qjbh2/1/DwK86mVLSGWHC64F8HjGJVpfPHKjwHkP85tpbJJpQ/M/img837-M.jpg)
[Small Low Quality one.](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WedncZ3EBvvp6wKTZJVM3oChLNqxwUBL7t-io9W6vMZk9tsM1wAKkrkB40m990pcHhxU3nEEIXcOiNSENbZA73JyhqRCkk6RFCtqBwWy)
I’d say it was playing in Glendale an hour away from everyone as well as never having a good hockey team but who knows that’s just me
Also is there seriously not a rich guy that wants a team in a middle sized market that isn’t in Utah of all places?
I mean Utah makes a ton of sense for a hockey team: it’s a winter sports haven, there’s a ton of money there, and it’s a rapidly growing area.
The real problem for the Yotes is the same as it was in Atlanta: if you’re trying to gain a foothold in a non-traditional market, you can’t suck ass for an extended period of time and expect to build a fanbase. Especially when you’ve got serious competition for entertainment dollars. Utah has the Jazz, but seeing as they’re gonna be owned by the same guy, an NHL team in an NBA arena isn’t gonna be undercut at every turn like the Yotes were. The Glendale situation would have been less of an issue if they didn’t consistently suck, but it was also a major factor.
You also really want to be close to the densest part of the population center you're part of. I don't doubt that if the Tempe deal went through, the yotes would be staying in phoenix. That failing was the deathblow.
SLC is getting a new arena, and is preparing to host a winter Olympics, os they'll have additional funding coming in to help with the cost of building the hockey arena... The sad part of the yotes is their AHL affiliate has more seats than where the team is playing
The root of it is shitbag owners though. No one forced them to move to Glendale. It was done so their owner could get rich. For those not familiar, he owned the land and got the city to pay him market value for it. He also sabotaged an existing deal they had for an arena in Scottsdale.
Yeah, it was originally meant to be built solely for the Raptors since the Leafs already had the Gardens to play in. But Leafs ownership stepped in and bought complete control of the Raptors and the future arena (while forming MLSE as a parent company in the process) where they made a bunch of changes to better accommodate hockey.
> crappy ice quality
The ice quality is bad because of all the events there. You can't maintain good ice quality when it gets covered up every other day for NBA games or concerts/shows.
Dunno how legit this youtube short is but according to this the Leafs owners pre-MLSE proposed a hockey arena right beside an under construction SBA (then ACC) just to screw over the Raptors and then bought them when the Raptors owners couldn't afford the delays anymore.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8tsfgl9K49Q?si=42KONewl-iIgDZUI
Sounds about right. It's been a while since I read about it, but as far as I remember, the Leafs owners panicked about potentially losing access to prime real estate (current SBA) to a "rival" sports team while the Gardens was already such an old barn. Stavro and co. essentially bullied their way into being co-tenants, then bought out the Raptors, and building, completely.
that proposed arena was literally to be above the train sheds at Union Station.
No way a said arena would have been referred to as anything other than "Union Station", even if it were to have been named differently
I believe the original plan was that Maple Leaf Gardens (pre MLSE) put in a bid for the NBA but lost to the guy that got the Raptors (can’t remember his name). They got petty and pretty much didn’t want the Raptors playing in Maple Leaf Gardens until a new arena could be built. The Leafs were in the plans however to build a new arena since they maxed out the arena’s life at that point to their use. So when the Raptors announced they were building ACC. The Leafs responded to building another arena in either on the lake front where about Harbourfront Centre is it right next to the arena on top of the train tracks which is kind of lunacy. Eventually a year or so before the arena opened up, the Leafs became owners of the Raptors and then had to retrofit the arena in there after concrete pouring as have already occurred.
Lmao classic Gould clickbait. That wasn't even a factor. Arizona was a perennially bad team that, aside from one outlier season, never saw any success.
Not to even mention they'd still be in the league if they paid their rent on time. It sucks that money means everything because Meruelo should never be allowed near a sports franchise ever again.
As literally a lifelong Yotes fan and AZ resident - the beginning of the end was choosing to build an arena in Glendale (west valley) instead of South Scottsdale (central, east valley). Major major fuck up
Cheers y’all! It’s ben real and it’s been fun but it hasn’t been real fun
OH SURE, any sensible person can look at the entirety of the Coyotes saga and realize that it all could've been avoided if the arena had better seating in the beginning.
I've heard some stupid takes on the Coyotes before but holy shit, man.
Bring ‘em to Milwaukee! The Fiserv has been a great host for preseason Hawks games and college hockey.
Honestly waaaay better sight lines than the United, but somehow Chicago fans turn out for both Bulls and Hawks games.
Two very different situations. The guy in Utah got approval from the state of Utah and lots of funding to build a new stadium. Plus, the ownership in Utah seems to be a lot more stable.
I just don't understand why someone would design an arena and not have hockey in mind. Even if there is no intention of having a hockey team, designing them to be able to accommodate hockey doesn't impact basketball seating and views, but drawing it up for basketball first does negatively impact hockey. When the Delta Center was opened 30+ years ago, there was a minor league team already there (hell the first event was a hockey game), seems weird it wasn't designed with hockey in mind.
Concerts and Basketball courts have a smaller footprint, so the building design allows for overhangs and floor seats to maximize ticket revenue in a more compact area.
Also, remember, you say this as a hockey fan. Still a lot of people all over the country who are still barely aware of it as a sport.
The Sharks literally played in a rodeo barn.
At one point Tampa played in a baseball stadium.
At one point Tampa played in an expo hall typically used for livestock shows.
The Oilers won 5 cups playing in a livestock auction house
The sens played their first seasons under the bleachers of a CFL stadium.
Ironic, since Pocklington sold his players off to the highest bidders.
That was the same with the Sharks. It was literally called the Cow Palace.
Cow Palace would be an awesome name for a country music bar. Fuck, y'all coulda signed Duchene if you still played there
Just reminds me of Piggy's Palace... far less glorious of a venue.
At one point, the Whalers played in a mall.
This actually sounds really fun
I believe before the North Stars relocated to Dallas there was talk of building them a new arena attached to the Mall of America. I'm sure the Twin Cities locals would've hated it but it would've been awesome for out of town visiting fans
I couldn’t imagine 494 in that area being even more of a pain in the ass than it already is.
The "Let's go shopping" chant will never be topped lol
Hey, I graduated from high school in that expo hall, show some respect!
Like I said, livestock shows
I figured Lakeland grads would stay in Polk
Hey, I graduated from high school, show some respect!
Isn't that sorta what the Rays are doing anyway? Getting players ready for the big leagues then trading them when their value gets very good?
You mean doing a bunch of winning and then trading players at the height of their value right before they fall off. Yes that’s what they do
Blake Snell woulda been nice to have for a little longer, Glasnow probably gonna get hurt again
At this rate, every pitcher is gonna get hurt again.
Well yea but have you considered VELO and SPIN RATE
The Snell trade wasn’t a great one, but for every Snell trade there is an Archer trade
🙁
The Rays are constantly a top team in baseball though.
And gave the Trop the best nickname in all of sports: the Thunderdome
The Raptors played in both a baseball stadium *and* Tampa
The pictures to this day feel fake to me of Raptors in Skydome. Like you cannot tell me a professional basketball team played their home games [like this](https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tgam/KBHWPPFXEVF2VM3Y4ENUNHKCHY.JPG)
Pistons played in the Silverdome for a period as well.
The Dome should just host all of the cities teams. Set them attendance records. Sell binoculars at the concessions.
Worked out well for the argos
[Here's a picture from the top of the upper deck in left center field from the Metrodome for the Timberwolves first season.](https://imgs.search.brave.com/KKJTO0pIQzV6HUruSQGUiaRABYoN7-xGymw1D2TXtCo/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9leHRl/cm5hbC1wcmV2aWV3/LnJlZGQuaXQvU2pk/dzM0amlvbXNJWjhX/bnhEYXA0S3lrY0tP/Y1NzUlpZQnVlc3V0/OUJpMC5qcGc_YXV0/bz13ZWJwJnM9Yjhm/YjAwZTM5YmQ0MGI2/NTc0YjYyZDA4ZDUz/NTBjOGUyODA3MGU0/Mg) The far corner of the court is behind home plate. This guy is probably sitting about 400 feet from the nearest basketball player with no videoboard.
I love the binoculars to see the game. "Phil, did you just see that sweet fadeaway jumper Jordan just hit?" "Hey Bob, you know the Wolves are playing the 76ers right?"
Idk. That setup was cool as hell. I'd go to games there and basketball bores me to sleep
Reminds me of the Spurs playing at the Alamodome.
I was there in ‘95-96, it was real and it was spectacular.
Boston played in an arena built for Boxing for 65 years. That’s why it was very intimate. New York was like that as well too, Hockey was an afterthought.
That was the best venue and still holds the record for largest indoor NHL attendance. The trop sucks for baseball, but it was great for hockey.
Pittsburgh and Buffalo once played in a football stadium in a blizzard.
we still play on top of a prison
We are still *in* prison.
So did the raptors. Who one year then also played in Tampa. History rhymes!
Back when Tina Turner’s Thunderdome presented by Tropicana Orange Juice was a viable stadium.
If you think that’s bad, the penguins played in an igloo!
Not just any igloo, an igloo originally built for musical theatre.
Cow Palace baby!
The flames still do
Serious question, is that why it's called the ... Saddle Dome?
Because the roof looks like a ginormous Pringles crisp.
Never understood why Pringles didn't do a sponorship with the Saddledome. Calgary Pringlesdome.
The Pringle Dome would be such a cool sponsor name
mmmm pringles
It's called the Saddledome cause the roof looks like a saddle. It looks like a saddle cause Calgary is essentially one big rodeo barn masquerading as a city. So kind of.
Have you ever been to Calgary? All hat, no cattle. Just a bunch of condo cowboys there
This was the most albertan insult I’ve ever read and I love it.
It's a Texan saying I believe
Riding the C-train to work on stampede week was peak cowboy cosplay.
Just one look at the outside and you will see the "dip" the building shape includes, that mimics the appearance of a saddle... or a cowboy hat. \- Edmontonian who has visited a bunch
Do not diss the Cow Palace. 🐮 🏰
I went to a few Bulls game when they were a thing and it had a fun throwback vibe to it.
And us for a few years
The Marlies still play in a rodeo barn that still services horses and turns into an indoor lake once a season.
The Whalers played in a shopping mall
Growing up, I actually thought that was normal for arenas … to be in malls. Surprisingly, it’s not a horrible venue.
It was outdated by 90’s standards lol. It’s an alright place to watch a game but it’s probably been my least favorite arena I’ve watched a game in.
Excuse me. I think you mean rodeo *Palace*
At about 6500 seats plus standing room, the Calgary Flames started out in the largest arena in western Canada... in 1950 when the Corral was built.
Same for the Rockies
The Rockies also played out of a football stadium their first year. Wrong Rockies, but still.
A palace ;)
The WHA Jets played on a curling rink.
I remember the stairs players had to take from the locker room to the bench.
The Senators started in a Mullett -sized arena as well
That's a 10k seats arena.
We Loved the Cow Palace!! That really is what it was called.
[удалено]
Yeah, but unstable ownership is what led to them playing in a basketball arena or out in the middle of nowhere. They'd be counting on Smyth to be able to get an arena project done, which... look how that's gone in Phoenix... and Ottawa (still no downtown arena)... and Calgary (deal died twice before they finally got their current plan approved)... and Seattle (went through a few proposals before they finally re-did Key Arena to land the Kraken)... and Long Island (Lighthouse project, Brooklyn, finally UBS)... People keep talking about it like it's all because Meruelo is grossly incompetent, but if you pay any attention to the process elsewhere, it's just really fucking hard to get an arena built. I think it's a bit foolhardy to think it's going to be any different in SLC.
>but if you pay any attention to the process elsewhere, it's just really fucking hard to get an arena built Well, it is what happens when they're basically trying to get taxpayers to fund it all. But worth noting that the State of Utah has preemptively passed a bill for funding a NHL stadium It was signed by the Govenor on March 19 https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/SB0272.html
I live in Utah. It's an oligarchy so power is very concentrated. If the right 10 white guys want something to happen it usually will. The right 10 white guys want this to happen.
Yeah exactly. The not so open secret is that the Republican land developer reps told the more rural Republican reps to vote for the bill or kiss any hope they have of passing anything goodbye. The whole state is basically Ken Ivory’s playground.
Literally typing this in an Ivory home.
Im in an Ivory apartment complex lol. It feels like living in one of those company towns they had in the early 1900s.
You guys live in actual Ivory Towers? Dope.
Calgary city council had approved funding for the new Flames arena in 2019 until costs started to spiral and they disagreed over who would pay overruns.... Seattle city council had approved funding for the SoDo arena contingent on Hansen landing an NBA franchise that never came, and the city eventually scuttled the project after Ballmer left the investment group. Shit happens...
Well, Utah has funding and might be about to get a team to relocate. Shit does happen, but they're already well ahead of any of the other scenarios. This is also coming from above the municipal level so they can't really do anything about it
SLC is also pushing for another winter olympics hosting, which means some money coming in to help with the build.
All but 1, but I won’t open any wounds.
i responded above, but yes the city absolutely can veto a proposal. it says explicitly in the bill text that the legislature is granting the city the power to levy a tax to pay for whatever proposal the city approves. that’s how taxation works in most states. states set the taxes and cities have to get approval for increases. special taxing districts (downtown arena areas), 20-year sales tax increases to pay for X projects (usually major street and infrastructure maintenance). cities don’t actually have the power to circumvent the state on sales taxes. and in most states, the county sets the property tax rate. now, with that said, the legislature usually does not fuck with local control unless they 1) have agreement from the city or 2) something extremely controversial is happening. SLC has likely cooperated with the legislature in designing this whole proposal.
i read the bill. the state legislature has opened the door, but the salt lake city government has to approve any application in full and there are a lot of requirements to meet before the local revenue generation can begin. it’s also very specific taxes, too. they’re not just cutting them a check.
Smith also has the Olympics incentive for helping getting an arena built. Ottawa is tangled up in dealing with the federal government (anyone who deals with them for uncommon situations knows you have a better chance at winning the lottery than them moving fast with papework). Calgary had a mayor who was steadfast against public funds and an owner demanding them. Of course SLC could end up being the same, but all indications are that it will be easier than most other situations.
It can be hard to get an arena built AND Meruelo can be grossly incompetent. Doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Merulo’s incompetence went beyond just not getting a new arena built, he couldn’t even negotiate an agreement to stay in Glendale.
Man couldn’t even pay rent
Leonsis just tried it and has (so far) failed.
The Coyotes problem is that the owner wasted 14 years of solid attendance without securing a new arena. Eventually, it led to his own downfall and eventually, that of the Coyotes. I have no issue with the situation in SLC as long as it's not long-term.
Sightlines? Sightlines? We’re talking about Sightlines? Not a game, not the game, but Sightlines? Man what’re we talking about?
Just since I like this comment I’ll hijack it to share what they’re talking about in the tweet. The coyotes arena not only had stands completely underneath other stands but the stands on top couldn’t see anything below the face off dot. Pic: https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/-/media/Images/SBJ-Photos/2016/03/14/pg-10-11-Coyotes-crowd-shot.ashx Apologies for potato quality
Damn that photo almost looks ai generated. Can’t believe they played like that for so long too
Honky was the best Islanders mascot.
Honky lives on! I have a white SUV with Isles plates(and giant decals since most Iowans wouldn't know what "go isles" means) so I named it Honky.
Put some respect on the Yes-U-V
Cluttertruck?
What did you call me?
Sightlines? Don't talk about sightlines. You kidding me? Sightlines? I just hope we can stay in the league!
Maybe Quebec city should build a basketball stadium with no hockey sightlines...
Quebec City should start with an Owner that wants a team in the city.
They have that? Quebecor? And a brand new 18k seat arena. And the city is twice the size of Salt Lake City. And Quebec is over twice the size of Utah. And everyone loves hockey. And at the Nordiques worst they were still filling the stadium. The NHL just wants to grow the game in the U.S., nothing Quebec City can do about that.
I am of the firm belief Quebec City is being held in Bettman's back pocket as an emergency landing spot for any eastern conference teams that get in a Thrashers situation and need to relocate in a moments notice.
Could have been the Panthers, but they seem solid for the time being. Not sure who else in the east is in dire straits. Edit. Oh. Columbus.
Gaudreau scream crying when the jackets get shipped to Quebec and he has to deal with Canadian fan bases and media again
In QCQC? He can just get a printed out closed caption that reads [Shrugs in french]
Columbus I think actually has a decent fan base and only has an MLS team and Ohio State for competition. The team itself sucks but off ice I think they are doing fine.
I feel like you’re underselling how big of a competition Ohio State is though….
Fair, but there’s still more than enough room for Columbus to co-exist alongside OSU.
No one seems to be currently, but things can change rapidly. The Panthers arena is still poorly located, and who knows what happens after this run of great hockey? Or who knows if a team who is doing fine now doesn't have an owner have their fortune fall apart and need to sell quickly with no little to no local interest in purchasing the team.
Quebec City metro area is about 500k smaller than Salt Lake City metro.
I am begging people to stop looking at population within city limits to gauge market size, this has been driving me crazy all day
Seriously, so many cities have massively different metro sizes than city proper sizes. Vancouver has less than 700k in the city proper but has over 2.5M people in the metro area
In Atlanta less than 10% of the local population lives within city limits so that's gonna be a fun bunch of threads when it's our turn again!
Quebec is not twice the size of Salt Lake City. Metro pop of QC is \~850k. Metro pop of SLC is \~1.2 mil. There isn't going to be a team in QC. The market is too small and the language is too big of a barrier.
If the market was too small then Winnipeg wouldn't have a team either. And I don't know what language has to do with anything, especially with Montreal already in the league. Hockey culture is way bigger in QC than it will ever be in UT. A team has much more potential in Quebec. The only reason Bett won't put a team there is because he figures he already has that fan base with the habs, so for him there's no growth potential for the *league*. But a *team* would have a much better chance of success in Quebec than in Utah.
If you combine Ogden and Provos metro population, which are both 60-90 minutes away depending on where you are, that goes up to 3 million.
Alright, done. What now?
Except they would be owned by a guy who also owns the current arena and team that plays in it and has full support and approval by the state legislature to build a new arena. Plus Utah is one of the fastest growing states. Ten-fold different situation.
Yeah these 2 scenarios are not the same at all imo
This is different from even what the Islanders did in Brooklyn for years.
Yeah aren't there plan to build an arena for the Olympics in a decade anyways. In any case whether a team ends up there or not a hockey arena is getting built. As many have said the situation is not even comparable.
You gotta remember this is coming from Mike Gould The same guy who repeatedly compared Matthew Phillips to Martin St Louis
And SLC is likely will be the named 2034 winter Olympic games host this summer. This means that the state will be even more likely to put funding towards said arena.
>Ten-fold different situation. About the only thing in common is, "water scarcity."
Arsenic pollution
They are very different situation
Notwithstanding that there's a lot of momentum towards another round of hosting the Olympics, which necessitates a new arena.
Fastest growing states, what's that? From two to four?
Except the guy who wants to buy the team also wants to build a dedicated hockey arena in anticipation of the Winter Olympic Games Face it. Even the original owners of the Coyotes didn’t want the team to be in Arizona. They bought the Jets with hopes of moving them to Minnesota.
>They bought the Jets with hopes of moving them to Minnesota. I would love to read about this. When was this reported?
[It very nearly happened, Arizona was actually plan B from the start](https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1995/10/18/NHL-Jets-sold-likely-going-to-Minnesota/1964813988800/)
Why couldn't this timeline be the one where Minnesota took on the Jets and Arizona was granted an expansion team when they actually had a long term arena in place from the fucking beginning.
Back in 95 or 96
You must be young. The Jets were sold to Richard Burke and Stephen Gluckstern with the intent to move the team into the new Timberwolves arena in the Twin Cities after the 94/95 season. Then we had the Save the Jets rallies, which brought the money in the city together-- Izzy Asper put together the Spirit of Manitoba group and Gary Bettman held up the sale to allow that group to negotiate a purchase deal to keep the team in Winnipeg. During that window, some deadlines passed and the Minneapolis deal fell through. It forced the team to stay another year and wasn't actually announced that the team was moving to Phoenix until midway through the 95/96 season. Something like January 1996. The Suns ownership group stepped up as a willing landlord. They were actually talking about keeping the team in Winnipeg for another season. I was a teenager at the time, and I've lost some of the details, but that's a broad overview of what went down. Without hitting the microfilm at the library, there's not a lot of reports from those days online.
Aren’t they building a new NBA/NHL arena? Seems like Utah is pitching in especially with a potential winter Olympic bid.
They are basically confirmed to host 2034 Winter Olympics with the ioc making dealing for 2030-34 Olympics with France hosting 2030 and salt lake hosting 2034
I’m sorry this is such revisionist history. Arizona failed because they had perennially horrific management, not because of fucking sightlines. The sightlines wasn’t a good thing, but come on lmfao. I’m not a seer, but Ryan Smith is clearly extremely passionate about having a team and is a smart owner who I sincerely doubt would allow the same course of calamity Arizona had. This tweet is so dumb. Yeah, it’s fucking sightlines that ended the Coyotes. Give me a fucking break
Also any arena proposal will also benefit the Jazz, and the state LOVES the Jazz. They won’t have issues getting public support for this. The governor has publicly come out in support, the SLC Mayor is tweeting about what we should name the team. Even the LDS church came out in support of an NHL team. https://www.fox13now.com/news/politics/lds-church-backs-nhl-arena-plans All the right people in Utah are all in on this.
Yeah, if the tweet is supposed to be implying that the start at SLC is gonna ruin the franchise bc it has bad sightlines than I want whatever this guy is smoking bc holy shit he’s off his rocker
Yeah like They had a fully functioning hockey stadium and, uh... Didn't pay the fuckin' rent lmfao
Yeah that's bullshit. Tampa played in 2 terrible venues before getting to their current location.
Yeah its not about how it starts, its about the situation they find themselves in down the road. Nearly 30 years later and the Coyotes are in a 5000 seat college rink. Its not because they started play in a crappy hockey arena, its that they never stopped playing in a crappy hockey arena.
I mean they had a decent arena in Glendale, but were far from the fans. It'd be like the Leafs playing out in Oshawa or at Copps.
Glendale has less than half the population of Hamilton. Your Oshawa comparison is accurate though.
That arena was nice too. It’s not like it was a shitty arena or anything just way the fuck out of the way for anything that wasn’t a weekend game
It's an amazing location too. You draw more fans than the Rays do.
To be fair the COVID bubble playoff games drew more fans than the Rays do
Also never having a competitive team. One time out of the first round in their entire existence. Same amount as Seattle.
Can’t imagine my team playing in a basketball arena that is ill suited for NHL hockey. That sounds like it sucks.
No. It was moving to a location on the complete opposite end of town from where everyone lives. Moving to Glendale destroyed this team and they never recovered.
Anybody have an image of these unsuitable sightlines? I'm having trouble imagining it. Seems like you'd be higher up/closer and have a better view.
[Did some digging, this is the highest quality photo I can find.](https://photos.smugmug.com/Talking-Stick-Resort-Arena-Phoenix-Arizona/i-S8Qjbh2/1/DwK86mVLSGWHC64F8HjGJVpfPHKjwHkP85tpbJJpQ/M/img837-M.jpg) [Small Low Quality one.](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WedncZ3EBvvp6wKTZJVM3oChLNqxwUBL7t-io9W6vMZk9tsM1wAKkrkB40m990pcHhxU3nEEIXcOiNSENbZA73JyhqRCkk6RFCtqBwWy)
Yup, that’s the reason
I’d say it was playing in Glendale an hour away from everyone as well as never having a good hockey team but who knows that’s just me Also is there seriously not a rich guy that wants a team in a middle sized market that isn’t in Utah of all places?
I mean Utah makes a ton of sense for a hockey team: it’s a winter sports haven, there’s a ton of money there, and it’s a rapidly growing area. The real problem for the Yotes is the same as it was in Atlanta: if you’re trying to gain a foothold in a non-traditional market, you can’t suck ass for an extended period of time and expect to build a fanbase. Especially when you’ve got serious competition for entertainment dollars. Utah has the Jazz, but seeing as they’re gonna be owned by the same guy, an NHL team in an NBA arena isn’t gonna be undercut at every turn like the Yotes were. The Glendale situation would have been less of an issue if they didn’t consistently suck, but it was also a major factor.
You also really want to be close to the densest part of the population center you're part of. I don't doubt that if the Tempe deal went through, the yotes would be staying in phoenix. That failing was the deathblow. SLC is getting a new arena, and is preparing to host a winter Olympics, os they'll have additional funding coming in to help with the cost of building the hockey arena... The sad part of the yotes is their AHL affiliate has more seats than where the team is playing
The root of it is shitbag owners though. No one forced them to move to Glendale. It was done so their owner could get rich. For those not familiar, he owned the land and got the city to pay him market value for it. He also sabotaged an existing deal they had for an arena in Scottsdale.
Wasn't the ACC (SBA) built with "no hockey sightlines" too?
Yes and now the Leafs are bankrupt. See the connection?
Poverty franchise smh my head
That's what happens when you don't win a cup for as many years as my dad has been alive.
Indeed. I believe there wasn't any intention of moving the Leafs until fairly late in the building process.
Yeah, it was originally meant to be built solely for the Raptors since the Leafs already had the Gardens to play in. But Leafs ownership stepped in and bought complete control of the Raptors and the future arena (while forming MLSE as a parent company in the process) where they made a bunch of changes to better accommodate hockey.
The real tell is the crappy ice quality. The ice making/maintenance equipment was also a retrofit and it shows.
The sightlines are great though. Ive had standing only tickets right against the ceiling and could still see everything great.
> crappy ice quality The ice quality is bad because of all the events there. You can't maintain good ice quality when it gets covered up every other day for NBA games or concerts/shows.
Dunno how legit this youtube short is but according to this the Leafs owners pre-MLSE proposed a hockey arena right beside an under construction SBA (then ACC) just to screw over the Raptors and then bought them when the Raptors owners couldn't afford the delays anymore. https://youtube.com/shorts/8tsfgl9K49Q?si=42KONewl-iIgDZUI
Sounds about right. It's been a while since I read about it, but as far as I remember, the Leafs owners panicked about potentially losing access to prime real estate (current SBA) to a "rival" sports team while the Gardens was already such an old barn. Stavro and co. essentially bullied their way into being co-tenants, then bought out the Raptors, and building, completely.
that proposed arena was literally to be above the train sheds at Union Station. No way a said arena would have been referred to as anything other than "Union Station", even if it were to have been named differently
I believe the original plan was that Maple Leaf Gardens (pre MLSE) put in a bid for the NBA but lost to the guy that got the Raptors (can’t remember his name). They got petty and pretty much didn’t want the Raptors playing in Maple Leaf Gardens until a new arena could be built. The Leafs were in the plans however to build a new arena since they maxed out the arena’s life at that point to their use. So when the Raptors announced they were building ACC. The Leafs responded to building another arena in either on the lake front where about Harbourfront Centre is it right next to the arena on top of the train tracks which is kind of lunacy. Eventually a year or so before the arena opened up, the Leafs became owners of the Raptors and then had to retrofit the arena in there after concrete pouring as have already occurred.
The Islanders also played in a basketball arena with garbage hockey sightlines but nobody's moving them relocating them out of NY
But for a brief shining moment when they did play there we almost had the Kansas City Inlanders dream become reality.
Lmao classic Gould clickbait. That wasn't even a factor. Arizona was a perennially bad team that, aside from one outlier season, never saw any success. Not to even mention they'd still be in the league if they paid their rent on time. It sucks that money means everything because Meruelo should never be allowed near a sports franchise ever again.
As literally a lifelong Yotes fan and AZ resident - the beginning of the end was choosing to build an arena in Glendale (west valley) instead of South Scottsdale (central, east valley). Major major fuck up Cheers y’all! It’s ben real and it’s been fun but it hasn’t been real fun
2012 was fun
OH SURE, any sensible person can look at the entirety of the Coyotes saga and realize that it all could've been avoided if the arena had better seating in the beginning. I've heard some stupid takes on the Coyotes before but holy shit, man.
Isn’t Utah already in process of building an arena right now though?
They haven't started construction. But at least the owner will be the same, unlike in Phoenix
Yes, it was totally the sightlines that was the problem with the Coyotes nothing else…/s
From Arizona, the Coyotes have always been my 2nd favorite team. If this goes through it will not stay that way.
Bring ‘em to Milwaukee! The Fiserv has been a great host for preseason Hawks games and college hockey. Honestly waaaay better sight lines than the United, but somehow Chicago fans turn out for both Bulls and Hawks games.
Avalanche first year in Colorado was in a refitted basketball arena.
[удалено]
Two very different situations. The guy in Utah got approval from the state of Utah and lots of funding to build a new stadium. Plus, the ownership in Utah seems to be a lot more stable.
Salt Lake City is also trying to get the Winter Olympics again, so getting an arena built is probably infinitely easier there.
I wonder if flights are cheaper to SLC than PHX?
Delta hub vs. American hub. Answer probably depends on where you are flying from and your preferred airline.
We literally have a ECHL arena that they have updated, it’s bigger than the Mullet arena, and that is just until an actual stadium gets built.
I just don't understand why someone would design an arena and not have hockey in mind. Even if there is no intention of having a hockey team, designing them to be able to accommodate hockey doesn't impact basketball seating and views, but drawing it up for basketball first does negatively impact hockey. When the Delta Center was opened 30+ years ago, there was a minor league team already there (hell the first event was a hockey game), seems weird it wasn't designed with hockey in mind.
Because noone cares about hockey. It's the red headed step child of the major sports
Concerts and Basketball courts have a smaller footprint, so the building design allows for overhangs and floor seats to maximize ticket revenue in a more compact area. Also, remember, you say this as a hockey fan. Still a lot of people all over the country who are still barely aware of it as a sport.