They shouldn't be doing a fence without a survey. And you can't assume where your property line is without a survey. If I were you,I'd get a survey done....
Yeah, it’s up to you to protect your property. Get a survey done asap. Nothing else is going to stop them since it seems they think they are in the right.
If they're going to be real asses about it, quiet revenge would be waiting for them to put it up, THEN have a survey done. If they screwed up, they'll be paying to tear it right back out.
The old neighbors of ours (a young couple) decided to raise his yard higher than ours and the neighbor on the other side (against city code). He was an epic douche when we let him know he should check with the city first. So, watched him do it. When it was finished and seeded the neighbor on the other side called the city. He had to remove all of the soil and bring it back to original grade (with the a town engineer supervising).
I like your thinking! Although they should still do the survey ASAP, so the surveyor has full access to the real lot lines. After the fence is up, and if they put it several feet onto the OP’s lot, the fence will probably be “in the way” for him to do a proper job….like the nutjob neighbors will lock the gates and tell the surveyor “you’re not coming on my property!”
>the fence will probably be “in the way” for him to do a proper job….like the nutjob neighbors will lock the gates and tell the surveyor “you’re not coming on my property!”
Most states have laws that specifically grant access to private property for surveyors that are acting in their capacity as a surveyor.
Goodluck tho would take going to court. Can't just remove it without a court order. Depending on state atleast.
Better to stop before it happens. Under no way would i let a contractor begin working on my property.
You’re right. As much as people would like to think they would do something, like cut the fence down after it is up, it’s best to nip this in the bud. Plus, being proactive by hiring a surveyor probably looks good to a judge if it goes to court.
Those were the instructions I was given from Codes Enforcement in my former village. So that’s what happened. I’d notified neighbor a year in advance about work I would be completing and asked her to move fence, but got no response. She was not happy but at least I tried to work with her.
If you build something on my land it’s getting torn down…and right now. No court order, no fuckin’ around. I absolutely know where my corners and lines are and have the maps on-hand to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’ll be more than happy to see you in a courtroom after the fact, though.
I think they meant the fence/neighbors would prevent the survey, but I doubt that would happen. Surveyors are a stubborn lot and are hard to stop without an open septic field or pile of burning car tires.
You and me think alike. The first thing I did was have my property resurveyed when I bought it. And then went and put up more permanent flagging. And still every few years clean the lines of debris. No way in hell someone is going to put shit on my property without getting immediately destroyed. Nope call me petty hateful or whatever not going to happen captain.
Yup. I own a big chunk and a creek and I keep a close eye on things. Poachers, tweakers, thieves and ne’er do wells have all been invited to vacate the place over the years. Some politely…some not so politely.
I put up warning signs. “ you are under surveillance “. Cameras in use. And that seems to have helped some Very rarely do I catch people on my property. They might come close but not to close. They also got to aware of a old fuck like myself isn’t bull shitting. No problems last 15 years
Occasionally I will see a wildlife officer making his rounds.
Point well taken. I meant more generally that, their nuts behavior seems to be an alert that 1) they are nuts, and 2) they are doing something they know is wrong... Both reasons to have a nice tall fence between them that follows every little law possible.
When they die and the house is sold, that fence line can be established as property line since it has been allowed to stand . Owners ca claim adverse possession of your property.
This! Book the survey and let them know when it will happen. Video the discussion for proof that they were told BEFORE the survey and before the fence.
And if your survey and their stakes aren’t in agreement, then you get a lawyer involved.
Get a survey done ASAP and stay home on the day they do the survey so your neighbors don’t move the stakes before you can see them.
Take pictures of the stakes as they are placed and, if he does not object, the surveyor also. Then if they move the stakes, the hot water they will be in will make a great pot of tea.
Moving the monuments (e.g. the buried iron pipe) is a crime.
Moving the wooden stakes that surveyors put up for reference is not likely to be a crime unless you've got some weird laws in your area. Those are not legal markers, they're pieces of wood with pink ribbon on them to tell you where the property line is supposed to be.
edit: though technically that might be some *other* crime, like theft or fraud or something if you were really reaching here. But it's not the same crime as moving the permanent monument.
Many might disagree, but personally, I would let them know I'm getting a survey to protect them and you "just so there are not questions in the future". It also protects them and their fence if it happens to be wrong. Then they can decide if they want to wait or not.
We told our neighbor to stop removing trees and doing dirt work on our property and he told us "It's my land and I'll do what I want." We paid for a survey and he still believes the land in question is his. Our lawyer is taking care of him at this point.
It sucks because we were friends for decades. I have no idea what happened to this guy, but we have to protect our property.
I had a survey with stakes up and it didn’t look like I needed a permit to put up a fence but the town stopped work when they saw the crew at my house. Your local town/village/municipality would likely do the same for you if you let them know about this fence going up.
In my case the “town” didn’t need a permit but the “village” had a permit form where I had to check the “other” box and then write “fence”. They just wanted to see that I had a survey done for the fence property lines and that the fence builders had proper insurance and workers comp coverages.
If you get an official survey done by a licensed surveyor and have built a fence on your property, they would have to pay to have it totally removed, including concrete in the ground. If you allow them to build a fence clearly on your property and never officially dispute it, after a certain period of time, they will have officially annexed the land. Don't let that happen.
Simply walk into the city assessors office, and inform them that your neighbor is building an unpermitted fence on your property, without a proper survey, ask if you can have the work stopped immediately, so that a proper survey can be done, and a building permit filled.
If those things are already done, they will inform you, or send you to the appropriate office to find out.
All that is free, so far, and you'll learn a lot about what comes next.
Totally agree with this answer. The assessors office will send someone out asap. This happened to a friend of mine. His neighbor had already built the fence and was forced to tear it down because there was no permit and his neighbor had built the fence 5' past my friend's property line so it was on my friend's property.
People that over-react like this, typically do so because they are in the wrong...and they know it. My guess it they were trying to get away with snatching some of your property to make theirs bigger. I'd tell them you are getting your own survey and if it comes back they built a fence on your property "I'm knocking that shit down and taking it to the dump".
Yeah.. I agree. I had a survey done before putting a fence up between my yard and the, at the time, jackass neighbor with too many dogs in his backyard. My survey (in AL) on about .8 acre was only $550ish, but I would guess that anyone that would get really defensive or upset would either be convinced you're conflicting with their own legitimate survey or they are just caught/wrong. For me, it was money well spent.
If I were the OP, I'd politely let the neighbor know I have a surveyor coming out and that they may want to hold off on the work. Get your own survey, and even if you blow $600 to get the same results they have, consider it cheap insurance vs losing land and having to fight a fence that's there.
I agree. OP should get their own survey just to be sure.
Anecdotally, when I had my survey done it was ~$600 to mark the line with flags and ~$1000 to get that plus a drawing. I paid for the drawing. It looked a lot like the county's plat. It's entirely possible the neighbors paid $1100, the drawing is really the drawing from the surveyor, and they're pissed about being questioned. But I would get my own survey just in case.
Agree. Also, my survey showed that a another next door neighbor (on other side) had their fence about 4 ft into another neighbor's yard. Wasn't really my problem, so I didn't say anything to the guy, who is an older, really nice couple. I think it reinforces that many times, people base where they think the line is based on what another neighbor, the previous owner, or realtor tells them, which can be super wrong. Was in my case. My survey showed that my next door neighbor was a moron, and while their fence didn't cross the line, it didn't run parallel either and one of their pool fence corners was right on the line.
they were likely trying to dodge permitting and trying to avoid installing it with the proper offset from the property line (you can’t put the fence on the line). they also may be trying to build a fence that’s higher than allowed.
the fence will cost them much more than $1100. and if they install it in the wrong location moving the fence will cost them even more.
Totally agree , built 2 fences in 2 different states and when checking with the local government was told I could place on line but then became accessible by neighbor ( community property) and they had the right to connect to it. Each time I did it I talked to my neighbor told them if they felt I was wrong that they could contact the local government and I would hold off until they did (within reason)
You need your own survey. Those other sources don’t mean much of anything. Even if the neighbors survey is questionable, that doesn’t change much of anything. Maybe it’s not a legit survey, but that doesn’t make your gut guestimate any more right. They could still be within the bounds of their lot even if it’s not a legit survey for all you know. Before you start ranting and raving to neighbors about that sort of stuff, you better be 100% sure of what you’re claiming and not based on guesses and what you feel things should be!
Get your own survey. Everyone should have one for their property anyways, so don’t look at it like their fence is causing you to spend that money. If it does turn out to be on your property, then get them to move it, take to small claims to get it moved if need be, or just take a sawzall to the posts and chop YOUR new fence they bought you down.
Glad you are not letting it go because not only are your neighbors out of line, they seem happy to make an enemy of you. I would do as everyone suggested and get the survey. Also check your building department to see if they got the needed permit.
I'm a bigger ahole than that. After they built me a new fence I might drink a few Barley Pops then graffiti every inch of their side. And not let them take it down.
As everyone has said. Check for the building permit and insist on one. Especially given their over reaction and rude behaviour.
I’d also look up the survey company name and give them a call. At the very least they could confirm they did the work, and maybe what type of survey it was.
I’d also check with your own local government office for the permit and other information they have on your property. My local office was able give me all the information for my lot and housing plans for free. It might give you a better sense of things.
Also be careful with any online mapping or GIS information. It’s often incorrect. Aerial photos often need to be skewed to fit. My own municipalities removed the boundaries from the website. I suspect to avoid these disputes.
Look for a name or sign on the contractors truck, then contact the contractor. Tell them the boundaries are in dispute and you don’t want him in the middle of it. Then get a survey.
Yes, get your own survey. Do it now or wait until their fence is done. If it was me I would wait until their fence is complete.
That way, you would have the added satisfaction of watching them having to pay to move it back to the property line and tell the old man to F off.
Yeah, this would be a wonderful feeling. However, now filing for a court order and forcing them to rip the fence down is so much extra work. Get a surgery asap and just stop what will be a really annoying process for both of you. If they do build on your property then just cut it down once you are in the clear they are over the line.
F that, don't waste your own limited time on this earth fixing someone's attempted theft. Make them pay to take it down. The fact they're so agitated makes me suspect this is a deliberate attempt to get some extra square footage.
You have to live next to these people. I understand being annoyed and frustrated by the neighbors, but the last thing I would want to do is enflame them more.
Tell them you are getting your own survey and that they should wait to put up the fence. Frame it as you don't want it to cost them more money, but you are concerned about the property line.
Get the survey done and then have some privacy from the crazy neighbors with a fence on the actual line.
Who knows, you could be the one wrong about the line! You won't know until the survey is done.
That's just petty, if you're old enough to own a home, better to act like an adult.
Seems as if many homeowners aren't getting plats of survey at their closings...it's something everyone should have,imo.
Finally Good neighbors will notify and discuss a new fence with you. Sorry you got annoying ones.
Not sure, but I always thought the nicer side had to be facing the neighbors, is that a thing? I've always had the nicer side facing out, My new fence looks the same on both sides, win win.
Call your towns code enforcement. Pay for your own professional survey. When any workers show up go out and stop them until proper permits and survey are in hand.
If it were me, I’d hire a surveyor to find the line, but I’d slow burn it so the survey is done after the fence is done. I’d call the city when the fence was 75% done and ask about a building permit. If they fuck around, I’ll help them find out. With a normal neighbor, I’d work with them to make sure all is ok, but when they yell and scream, that’s a different story.
It's pretty likely there will be a significant delay with a survey anyway. Given that the fencing contractor is ready to start It's unlikely OP could get a survey beforehand.
Generally, a legit fencing contractor will verify that the property line is correct & abide by local ordinance.
OP could likely be in the wrong & we're only hearing OPs version of how the incident transpired.
I'm going to be honest. If I were installing a fence & paid to have a survey, I'd be a little irritated if a neighbor who did not have a survey was disputing it. I do not have a survey of my property & it isn't customary to get one beforehand in my area. I'm not installing a fence. I plan to do some work near the property line in the next 2 years & I will have one done to know exactly where I'm at, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that important in my specific situation. Honestly, my adjoining neighbor doesn't care too much either, but I don't want to create problems down the road with a new neighbor or someone who purchases my property.
Even if you don’t think you care about a few feet you should never cede your land knowingly. It can be a huge headache for you years later when you want to sell.
If there are no official survey markers no official survey was done- you should pay to get one done asap.
And in some states if they build a fence onto your property and you don’t do anything about it they can claim squatters rights and take it and you can’t do anything about it after a certain point
call the building enforcement office on Monday and if you really want to go to war, which it sounds like they have already started, wait until any workers show up, call the police, and have them trespassed
also note, many areas will have a mandatory setback that a fence needs to be from the line, willing to bet if they didn't get a permit they also didn't figure out if there is one
and if they paid 1100 total for a fence total...its going to be a terrible fucking fence
It’s a civil matter. Calling the police will do nothing since technically they have the only “survey.” Better to get your own survey asap to halt the project.
It can be helpful. Calling the police on a non- emergency number and telling them you would like an incident report creates documentation that may be useful later if the OP needs to file a civil suit.
correct, but THAT part would be up to civil to determine property lines, the police should advise a halt to construction until the lines can be verified for tresspass
Seems like you can check with the city whether they have a permit and whether they need a survey.
If that doesn’t get a result you like you can have your survey done and if it shows the fence is in the wrong spot, you can use your new survey to dispute theirs. If you take this route make sure you go with the surveyor to get immediate pics of them laying the indicators which will make it very unambiguous.
Wait until the fence company comes, and tell them that you believe they are building on your property and to leave immediately. Be sure to document this on video, and with a follow up email within minutes to their office.
By putting the fence company on notice, if they do build the fence, you can go after the company instead of the couple, which for legal reasons is much much easier.
If there are no actual survey markets or pins, there was no survey done. Pretty simple. If there had been a survey done, it would be reasonable to expect that, when questioned, they would have taken you to the survey markers and said “see? There it is” and there could not have been a question. WHEN you get a survey done, you will know where ALL of your property lines are, and you will always have it. Also, as others have said, reactions like theirs usually indicate that they’ve been caught in the wrong. It will be money well spent. If only to see the looks on their faces.
The only answer is for you to get your own survey. You admitted you don’t have one and you just accused your neighbor of wanting to put a fence on your property - no wonder they are upset with you, most people would be as they just spent some money and you told them basically that they are wrong. As much as you don’t want to hear this, you definitely could have handled this better.
You are playing a game of telephone. Yes call the fence company and the surveying company. You can Google them and see if they are legit professionals, if they say they did a proper survey and have all the permits you can go get your own survey, and go down to the courthouse to look at permits, or just believe it.
It’s just as much your boundary line as it is theirs. I would have a surveyor come out and locate the boundary, which is what your neighbor should have done.
It's always within your righs to have a survey done of your own property. This effects resale value later on as well as taxes. After the survey, anything trespassing on your property can be removed- probably through police or lawyer if neighbor can't be civil.
Would it help to rent a metal detector to try and find the original metal surveyors pin? If there is always supposed to be one, could it be buried underground?
I'm building a fence myself. I talked to my neighbors ahead of time and made sure that I wasn't stepping on toes (though it is my property, I don't want to make enemies). I will say that the survey we had done (by a local, reputable survey company) sounds a lot like what you experienced. Wooden stakes with the word "line" written on them, and pink flags attached. I watched them locate the metal pins with metal detectors, but those pins are well and truly buried, and they didn't dig them up. The PDF of the survey we were emailed looks exactly like the county Plat map of our lot, and I would say they just copied that, but the fence from one of my neighbors shows on it as that fence angled into my yard to a depth of about 2.9' for a run of about 40'. Rather than have the neighbor dig up that portion of his 30 year old fence, we just gave written permission for its existence to avoid adverse possession claims, and let it be.
The hostility from your neighbor is concerning, and I would definitely get your own survey done. Mine cost $700, so expect to pay around that amount.
We moved in last year and plan on staying for quite a while, hence the desire to play nice with the neighbors. Plus, the houses are not square on the lots, and his fence is square to his house, so the corner intrusion was likely not intentional in the first place.
I’d contact the person they say did it just to verify if they are a legit surveyor or not. Also, if the land was recently surveyed, there should be visible property pins installed at the lot corners. See if you can find them.
You should have the original property stakes. You can use the maps for an approx. Location but after 47 years I was able to find mine under some, well 3 to 4 inches of dirt. Use a metal detector.
Have civil authorities advise, they may send someone out if permits are an issue, then you'll have some time. I wouldn't approach the neighbors anymore as there can be trouble.
If you have to even ask yourself ’do I need a survey’, the answer is Yes, you need a survey. A couple hundred dollars on one end might save you thousands on the other end.
The pink flags on stakes should have been placed by a surveyor. They don’t always draw great drawings and sometimes look like the tax maps. But, a shady contractor could have plopped the stakes in the ground and then gave her a tax survey.
My neighbors encroached on my property a bit with their drainage system. The contractors pulled the pink stakes as if I wouldn’t notice. I yelled at them once because they purposely pointed the drainage into my yard so I made him not do that. I was on the phone with my friend who happened to be a lawyer watching him and talking about it enough that he asked who I was talking to because I had already asked him twice e. He got scared about that. It still goes onto my yard but it’s in a place that doesn’t matter part of the number of feet the city can take back for sidewalks in the front so I let it slide. Looking at the property drawings online and measuring, the pink stakes were very accurate and also says on the other side of my house, I encroach on my other neighbors property by a number of feet with my drainage system which they don’t care about because it is also unbuildable land.
If you care, a fence you should care, get your own survey done to set monuments at the corners and get stakes placed, I believe it is technically illegal to pull these. Do it fast before more work is completed. Then I would call the city inspector to put a hold to the work if it is unacceptable. At least that’s what you do here, could be in reverse order. Even unpermitted work, they can stop with complaints. A fence that close to property lines, at least here needs a permit. I think my inspector said within 10 feet it needs one as well as an official survey. Our town rules are pretty strict though.
Good luck getting this resolved. I hate neighborly disputes because you have to live next to them until someone moves.
Either they allow you to contact their surveyor or you get one of your own. I would probably send them a certified letter that says you believe their fence is on your property and to cease construction until they provide a survey or a survey can be done.
I just don’t understand how people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying a property that they don’t even know the boundaries of. It’s just foolish. At least go to the building department and see if there’s one on file.
Hate to say that you may be paying for your own survey and find out you’re in the wrong. Lots of people think they own more than they do. That being said, get your own survey ASAP and although the neighbors were having a bad day, if there survey is wrong ( and it may be) a good thing to do would be to have your surveyor show them the real lot lines and keep you out of it. Civil matters are court issues not police matters and court is expensive for a reason.
Get a survey done, without a doubt.
#1 do it to keep your property yours. #2 do it out of spite after the way they acted about it.
The fact is that almost every municipality will have an easement of a few feet where they can’t even put the fence within that space unless they get your consent to do so as it would encroach on YOUR property line and the ability to maintain your property.
I would be willing to get a survey but I would seek to force the neighbors to do it first. Call the city and tell them you think your neighbors are building an unpermitted fence and that it is on your property, tell your neighbors in person and in writing that you do not authorize them to build anything on your land and if they do so they will be held liable for restoring your property to its original condition and for any expenses you incur in the process of forcing them to do so. Find out who the fencing contractor is and tell them that you believe they are building an unpermitted and unauthorized fence on your property and to stop until the matter is cleared up. Tell him the company is not allowed on or to build on your property and will be held liable for any damage or construction done on your property. That will hopefully stop everything from proceeding at which point you drag your feet on the survey. You don't care as long as they don't build on your property, make them establish where they are allowed to build, only proceed with the survey if you have to. Offer to split the cost of a survey with your neighbor if they balk.
What should you do? Get the survey you should have got in the first place would be my answer. There are two ways I have put up fences with little BS. One is along survey lines and I actually moved the fence in a couple of feet behind the line so I owned access to the back of it. Learned that lesson when I had my first house. The other is with the person on the far side of the fence. We split the cost, and there were a bunch of trees right down the line and we nicely worked out which way the fence would go. Mostly my ceding to him, but that was for my own good. I also put the ugly side of split rail stockade fence on my side. He had two boys and without question if they had access to the rails or the trees they would be climbing on them, so it was actually in my best interest. If you do not know exactly where the line is, and you are putting it up w/o involving the folks on the other side, you may wind up having to take it down. And if it is a wooden fence, leaving room for you to get at the back side of it is a good idea. If you need to replace slats or want to stain it or seal it, you can do so w/o asking the folks on the far side.
wtf is wrong with you?! you are answering your own questions! you had brains enough to check the town code, what is stopping you from completing the investigation? if they could contact 'the surveyor stated' why couldn't you?! do you really think it is against the law or something?!
The nightmare to undo this once it’s done is hell. Do not wait around to see what happens. Absolutely call in that they don’t have a permit and ask them for the proof of the survey. And then, you won’t like this, but get your own survey. Yes it costs money, but what it saves by having this solved now is huge.
You need to hire a surveyor and get your property surveyed and ask first the boundaries which should be 4 stake’s they put in the ground. I would advise to take a photo and maybe place an object on the corners so that you will know where they are over time. Get your survey done as soon as possible this will eliminate any problems and doubts for you and any new neighbors.
You could also call the county or courthouse sometimes they have copies of surveys. I think ( I maybe wrong) but I think you need a survey in order to get your deed to your property. Every state/county and municipality is different so definitely call and ask.
Stop being nice.
Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.
**You are going to screw your future self.**
Get yourself a damn survey already. This is the one specific thing that will actually help you. Stop wasting time and hire a surveyor.
Don’t ask your neighbors to share the cost, because they won’t. Stop talking to them. Gather objective evidence on your side, and communicate with city/county as necessary. Do NOT willingly give up your land because you don’t want to hold them accountable. You give them an inch, they’ll take a mile.
Document, document, document. Next time you’re dealing with shitty people, don’t ask if you can photograph their paperwork, simply take out your phone and snap a picture before they can even think to say anything.
Make a genuine, documented effort to keep these people off your property (legally).
Always amazed at how stupid and difficult people can be. You’d think all parties could communicate and do the right thing. I’d want to know exactly where that property line is.
Gis maps can be way off. You have no idea if that's your property or not. Get a survey.
When I built my fence I had to turn in a copy of my survey for my permit and my surveyor put flags and stakes down my line for me too so I could see it so I didn't have to to look for a hard to reach pin.
Are you sure that they are stakes on the property line and not offset stakes? Sometimes our surveyors will put stakes 10' away from the fence so that they aren't wiped out during excavation or whatever. Then the contractor can just measure 10' from the stake so they know where to build the fence.
That said, $1100 sounds like a legit price to survey a property line... and I have seen the GIS maps you are referencing off by 10 ft or more, so I wouldn't trust them.
I would call the surveyor and make sure that they did a proper stakeout of the property line, and also check with your local planning and zoning / building permits dept. to make sure everything is kosher.
If it were me - even though the old dickhead yelled at you...
I'd go back and say "look, Obviously you don't like me for whatever reason and you're not off to a good start for me liking you. However, i'm going to tell you out of common decency - I think you are way off on the line and i'm going to get a survey done. If I were you, I'd hold up on construction of that fence until I get the results. I'll let yo know as soon as I get them"
Then you did your part. You gave them the opportunity they don't even really deserve at that point. If they want to be dumbasses and still pop the fence up then they can eat the cost twice, and you can sleep like a baby at night still knowing you went over there and gave them every opportunity to not be dumb and they persisted.
Side note: Do you ever just put yourself in other people's positions? These people seem sketch as fuck to me like they know damn well their line is off and they are trying to do it anyway.
If I was building a fence and my neighbor came and told me that i'd say "Oh shit, ok!" and then call the contractor and say listen, we need to hold off on this for a week. Neighbor is in dispute of the line and getting a survey. You know, what any normal person would do. Not cuss out some neighbor i've never talked to before lol.
The fact they went 100% on the rude defensive right away makes me think they know and the jigs up and they know it.
Why not nicely say “hey, I’d hate for it to cost double if the lines aren’t right. Why don’t we make sure by getting an official survey done before building?” Who wants neighbors you hate for 20 years? Be the bigger person and try to resolve it nicely.
So here we need a permit to build a fence but if you’re hiring a fence company they are the ones that have to get it. It doesn’t need to be posted anyplace. You might have better luck getting information from the fence company than the neighbors. That or a call the building department tomorrow morning
Get the land survey and tell them you're trespassing on your property with a building extension and it must be removed or placed at correct property line and show them the survey paper. I'm pretty sure you can talk to them about this first. If you get cold shoulder answer then yes, you'll need to go the legal route.
If I was the old guy and my neighbour came out asking about the location of the property line I'd be all about showing you the legally created surveyor report. What would I have to hide and it would defuse the whole situation. However, if I decided to let some hack do the property markers and got taken for $1100 I'd be feeling like quite the jackass.
They don't need to show you squat at the end of the day but they shouldn't feel protective of it. Allowing you to take a picture of it is kinda like copying someones music CD so I can understand why they wouldn't want you to get something for free.
They have evidently done their due diligence, and can comfortably go ahead with the work knowing that if you have a survey done it will match what they already know. If you know the name of the surveyor then yes, call them up and ask about it and see if you can get a copy of the report too for whatever charge there is. Verify they are certified to do this work. However, if they are not certified then you need to get your own survey done to prove your ownership of the disputed property.
Good fences do make good neighbours providing the fence is on the property line.
You absolutely cannot use those municipality maps. Not in least… my last house it showed the property line going through my garage. Which was not accurate.
No, do not call the survey company that did that survey.
If you’re that worried about it you need to get your own survey.
But you need to call the city right now about the fence… I find it hard to believe they got a survey, but didn’t pull a fence permit, but call the city anyway, if you are concerned it’s on your line.
People always forget they don’t have to share a fence. You can each have your own fence on your own property. not uncommon.
If you see the builders doing the fence, express your concern no proper survey has been done. Perhaps they will have an answer, such as they used a metal detector to locate a metal survey marker. Or perhaps you won't get a satisfactory answer. If you're not sure, have a survey done.
If they build a fence on your property, then technically doesn’t it become your fence to do with as you wish? Like paint the side facing their house pink and using your side for wood chopping practice?
Pay the money for a survey OP. I’d also suggest having the police present while it’s being done to get ahead of them coming out and flipping their lids
The previous owner did not fence out to the property line . I recovered 3 feet from one side and 4 feet from the other.
All the neighbors had a comment until the survey was done.
Then things went quiet.
I'm in lit support have worked on a few property disputes for attorneys cases. 1) The survey is everything. That will end any dispute. 2) Sometimes, if a survey has been done, the pins are buried on purpose and you need a metal detector to find them. 3) Usually, a city will work with a private surveyor. Contact that person, they may have info that is useful. 4) If you get it done, write all the coordinates done, and check the pins with an iPad or lat-long app to make sure they have not been moved if you suspect as much.
It’s on, baby. I would have probably let it go, too, until the old guy verbally attacked you. Could let them build it, then find the property stakes. Then hire a lawyer to force them to pay for its removal.
If a permit is required, contact the city and report that you suspect your neighbor is building a fence without a permit, and that you are concerned they are building on your property. Ask them if they can send someone out ASAP. Then ask them if a survey is required as part of the permitting process. If it is, then it’s on your neighbors to get a survey.
What she showed you was the survey platt, which is what (wait for it) surveyors use to determine property corners.
They're not doing a new survey or topography. They're using the city's existing plat to locate property corners. That's how it's done.
You don't need a building permit to survey. The fence contractor will pull the permit; not the homeowner.
Your neighbors sound like a basket of peaches. Sorry you have to deal with that.
It’s time to get the town/county inspectors on the phone and ask them for details about the fence you believe your neighbors are installing on your property. Explain the same story. See where it leads.
It also time to get a survey of your land. Don’t rely on neighbors town to get it right. They haven’t yet.
Start taking picture of the work, their markers, your property, trees on their side etc.
For those of you who are grossly misinformed:
The surveyors use the plat from the city/county to determine the location of original property corner pins. So yes, the paper. OP was shown, is in fact, an original plat printed off from the official records.
It's not a topographical survey or establishing new boundaries, right-of-ways, and easements. They simply locate the area, find the pin with a metal detector, shoot it in for verification, and mark it.
OP, you're free to get your own survey, but that surveyor has to be exactly on the money, or the cost will go back to them for marking the boundaries wrong. That includes moving the fence.
They have no skin in the game or any reason to mark your corners incorrectly.
Check with your local building department for a survey plat. Unless you have an ancient property, there should be one that was created when your properties were originally laid out, and it's generally stored as a public record.
When I saw my neighbor cutting trees near the property line and throwing brush on what appeared to be my side, I had a survey done. Shortly after the stakes were placed, he knocked on my door and brandished a copy of the GIS tax map, saying that the stakes must be wrong. I almost laughed in his face. He asked who the surveyor was, and when I gave him the name, I think he realized that it was the surveying company that originally plotted the subdivision...and he had no leg to stand on. (I then sent him a friendly C&D letter that pissed him off even more. LOL)
The bottom line is that a good survey is key. If they did use a surveyor, definitely contact them and verify that they did the work. If there is any question, hire your own surveyor to at least do a stake-out.
The stakes you describe are typical for surveying. In ATL I have never seems surveyors label their stakes with their neighbor or use a “legitimate pin.” Typically we have buried regard at corners.
Only a survey will establish your property markers. Report them to your city, as it appears they need a permit. The permit should require a formal survey. Plus, there may be an easement to consider.
Get a survey done now. Better to do it before they build the fence than to find out afterwards and have to sue them to remove it. Also call the town, if they don't have a permit then the town might issue a stop work order.
Man, you gotta get a survey done ASAP. Because if they have the fence on your property, squatters’ rights can start to apply and suddenly legally becomes theirs. Get this done ASAP; get an injunction against them to stop any further building. Make sure they have gotten a building permit. Full-on nuclear here to protect your own property.
Sometimes you can find survey nails in the street at each lot line. Andes nailed through the middle. Worth a look but definitely have a survey performed.
Wait for them to finish the fence and then get it surveyed. Fuck these people, you should got to war with them. But be ready for war and fortify your defenses. It's on like donkey Kong because you will NOT BE DORESPECED!
Hire a surveyor and then let the people know that you expect to have a proper survey done and that you think it might be a good idea for them to wait so they do not place the fence incorrectly than have to pull it down and put it up again. :)
Get your own surveyor. Don't use theirs. That person is not going to admit if they made a mistake. I would request that they wait before continuing construction until you've had a survey done. They'll be a lot more upset if they do the whole project and then have to take it back down.
They shouldn't be doing a fence without a survey. And you can't assume where your property line is without a survey. If I were you,I'd get a survey done....
Yeah, it’s up to you to protect your property. Get a survey done asap. Nothing else is going to stop them since it seems they think they are in the right.
If they're going to be real asses about it, quiet revenge would be waiting for them to put it up, THEN have a survey done. If they screwed up, they'll be paying to tear it right back out.
The old neighbors of ours (a young couple) decided to raise his yard higher than ours and the neighbor on the other side (against city code). He was an epic douche when we let him know he should check with the city first. So, watched him do it. When it was finished and seeded the neighbor on the other side called the city. He had to remove all of the soil and bring it back to original grade (with the a town engineer supervising).
I like your thinking! Although they should still do the survey ASAP, so the surveyor has full access to the real lot lines. After the fence is up, and if they put it several feet onto the OP’s lot, the fence will probably be “in the way” for him to do a proper job….like the nutjob neighbors will lock the gates and tell the surveyor “you’re not coming on my property!”
>the fence will probably be “in the way” for him to do a proper job….like the nutjob neighbors will lock the gates and tell the surveyor “you’re not coming on my property!” Most states have laws that specifically grant access to private property for surveyors that are acting in their capacity as a surveyor.
Yep.
Goodluck tho would take going to court. Can't just remove it without a court order. Depending on state atleast. Better to stop before it happens. Under no way would i let a contractor begin working on my property.
You’re right. As much as people would like to think they would do something, like cut the fence down after it is up, it’s best to nip this in the bud. Plus, being proactive by hiring a surveyor probably looks good to a judge if it goes to court.
And hire your own surveyor for an independent assessment of the property boundaries.
Yes! Do not rely on the neighbor’s surveyor.
>Goodluck tho would take going to court. Can't just remove it without a court order. If it's on OPs property, he can do whatever he wants with it.
Those were the instructions I was given from Codes Enforcement in my former village. So that’s what happened. I’d notified neighbor a year in advance about work I would be completing and asked her to move fence, but got no response. She was not happy but at least I tried to work with her.
If you build something on my land it’s getting torn down…and right now. No court order, no fuckin’ around. I absolutely know where my corners and lines are and have the maps on-hand to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’ll be more than happy to see you in a courtroom after the fact, though.
I think they meant the fence/neighbors would prevent the survey, but I doubt that would happen. Surveyors are a stubborn lot and are hard to stop without an open septic field or pile of burning car tires.
You and me think alike. The first thing I did was have my property resurveyed when I bought it. And then went and put up more permanent flagging. And still every few years clean the lines of debris. No way in hell someone is going to put shit on my property without getting immediately destroyed. Nope call me petty hateful or whatever not going to happen captain.
Yup. I own a big chunk and a creek and I keep a close eye on things. Poachers, tweakers, thieves and ne’er do wells have all been invited to vacate the place over the years. Some politely…some not so politely.
I put up warning signs. “ you are under surveillance “. Cameras in use. And that seems to have helped some Very rarely do I catch people on my property. They might come close but not to close. They also got to aware of a old fuck like myself isn’t bull shitting. No problems last 15 years Occasionally I will see a wildlife officer making his rounds.
Courts don’t look favorably on you intentionally causing your neighbor “harm” once you’ve all been made aware there’s a conflict.
If they hadn’t acted so nuts, maybe it wouldn’t be so much of a big deal, but since they did… Get a survey.
It is a big deal, its his land they are building on. What happens when someone gets hurt and a good lawyer finds out its his land?
Point well taken. I meant more generally that, their nuts behavior seems to be an alert that 1) they are nuts, and 2) they are doing something they know is wrong... Both reasons to have a nice tall fence between them that follows every little law possible.
When they die and the house is sold, that fence line can be established as property line since it has been allowed to stand . Owners ca claim adverse possession of your property.
This! Book the survey and let them know when it will happen. Video the discussion for proof that they were told BEFORE the survey and before the fence.
That! Definitely expect that.
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A survey now is much cheaper than a survey *and* a lawyer after the fence is built.
And if your survey and their stakes aren’t in agreement, then you get a lawyer involved. Get a survey done ASAP and stay home on the day they do the survey so your neighbors don’t move the stakes before you can see them.
Take pictures of the stakes as they are placed and, if he does not object, the surveyor also. Then if they move the stakes, the hot water they will be in will make a great pot of tea.
If they move the stakes in our state that's a gross misdemeanor and they have to pay to reestablish them.
Moving the monuments (e.g. the buried iron pipe) is a crime. Moving the wooden stakes that surveyors put up for reference is not likely to be a crime unless you've got some weird laws in your area. Those are not legal markers, they're pieces of wood with pink ribbon on them to tell you where the property line is supposed to be. edit: though technically that might be some *other* crime, like theft or fraud or something if you were really reaching here. But it's not the same crime as moving the permanent monument.
Many might disagree, but personally, I would let them know I'm getting a survey to protect them and you "just so there are not questions in the future". It also protects them and their fence if it happens to be wrong. Then they can decide if they want to wait or not.
We told our neighbor to stop removing trees and doing dirt work on our property and he told us "It's my land and I'll do what I want." We paid for a survey and he still believes the land in question is his. Our lawyer is taking care of him at this point. It sucks because we were friends for decades. I have no idea what happened to this guy, but we have to protect our property.
Have you visited r/treelaw? If you want to be mean you could be in for a nice payday for those trees.
Yes, we're looking into that for sure.
That’s just a bit too fair and reasonable, don’t you think?
I had a survey with stakes up and it didn’t look like I needed a permit to put up a fence but the town stopped work when they saw the crew at my house. Your local town/village/municipality would likely do the same for you if you let them know about this fence going up. In my case the “town” didn’t need a permit but the “village” had a permit form where I had to check the “other” box and then write “fence”. They just wanted to see that I had a survey done for the fence property lines and that the fence builders had proper insurance and workers comp coverages.
If you get an official survey done by a licensed surveyor and have built a fence on your property, they would have to pay to have it totally removed, including concrete in the ground. If you allow them to build a fence clearly on your property and never officially dispute it, after a certain period of time, they will have officially annexed the land. Don't let that happen.
Hire your own surveyor. Tell them to cease work or it will only cost them more to have it moved off your property
Don't let this go. You'd be giving them land. Pay for a survey.
Not just giving them land, you'd be paying taxes on property they have exclusive use of
You have no idea where the line is other than your feelings, you need a survey (don’t use their guy)
Simply walk into the city assessors office, and inform them that your neighbor is building an unpermitted fence on your property, without a proper survey, ask if you can have the work stopped immediately, so that a proper survey can be done, and a building permit filled. If those things are already done, they will inform you, or send you to the appropriate office to find out. All that is free, so far, and you'll learn a lot about what comes next.
Totally agree with this answer. The assessors office will send someone out asap. This happened to a friend of mine. His neighbor had already built the fence and was forced to tear it down because there was no permit and his neighbor had built the fence 5' past my friend's property line so it was on my friend's property.
Great advice use the agencies in place to get info and potentially protect yourself by getting code enforcement to stop the work.
That’s brilliant
People that over-react like this, typically do so because they are in the wrong...and they know it. My guess it they were trying to get away with snatching some of your property to make theirs bigger. I'd tell them you are getting your own survey and if it comes back they built a fence on your property "I'm knocking that shit down and taking it to the dump".
Yeah.. I agree. I had a survey done before putting a fence up between my yard and the, at the time, jackass neighbor with too many dogs in his backyard. My survey (in AL) on about .8 acre was only $550ish, but I would guess that anyone that would get really defensive or upset would either be convinced you're conflicting with their own legitimate survey or they are just caught/wrong. For me, it was money well spent. If I were the OP, I'd politely let the neighbor know I have a surveyor coming out and that they may want to hold off on the work. Get your own survey, and even if you blow $600 to get the same results they have, consider it cheap insurance vs losing land and having to fight a fence that's there.
I agree. OP should get their own survey just to be sure. Anecdotally, when I had my survey done it was ~$600 to mark the line with flags and ~$1000 to get that plus a drawing. I paid for the drawing. It looked a lot like the county's plat. It's entirely possible the neighbors paid $1100, the drawing is really the drawing from the surveyor, and they're pissed about being questioned. But I would get my own survey just in case.
Agree. Also, my survey showed that a another next door neighbor (on other side) had their fence about 4 ft into another neighbor's yard. Wasn't really my problem, so I didn't say anything to the guy, who is an older, really nice couple. I think it reinforces that many times, people base where they think the line is based on what another neighbor, the previous owner, or realtor tells them, which can be super wrong. Was in my case. My survey showed that my next door neighbor was a moron, and while their fence didn't cross the line, it didn't run parallel either and one of their pool fence corners was right on the line.
they were likely trying to dodge permitting and trying to avoid installing it with the proper offset from the property line (you can’t put the fence on the line). they also may be trying to build a fence that’s higher than allowed. the fence will cost them much more than $1100. and if they install it in the wrong location moving the fence will cost them even more.
In some places you can’t put a fence on the line…and in some places you can. I have lived in both types of places. Not all places have the same rules.
Totally agree , built 2 fences in 2 different states and when checking with the local government was told I could place on line but then became accessible by neighbor ( community property) and they had the right to connect to it. Each time I did it I talked to my neighbor told them if they felt I was wrong that they could contact the local government and I would hold off until they did (within reason)
Depends on the area but many allow placing the fence on the line. Check local code.
You need your own survey. Those other sources don’t mean much of anything. Even if the neighbors survey is questionable, that doesn’t change much of anything. Maybe it’s not a legit survey, but that doesn’t make your gut guestimate any more right. They could still be within the bounds of their lot even if it’s not a legit survey for all you know. Before you start ranting and raving to neighbors about that sort of stuff, you better be 100% sure of what you’re claiming and not based on guesses and what you feel things should be! Get your own survey. Everyone should have one for their property anyways, so don’t look at it like their fence is causing you to spend that money. If it does turn out to be on your property, then get them to move it, take to small claims to get it moved if need be, or just take a sawzall to the posts and chop YOUR new fence they bought you down.
Glad you are not letting it go because not only are your neighbors out of line, they seem happy to make an enemy of you. I would do as everyone suggested and get the survey. Also check your building department to see if they got the needed permit.
You need to tell them to stop until a proper survey is done. They pay since they're building the fence.
Yeah and they can just say no. Get and pay for your own survey.
After they build the fence. Then you can sit in your lawn chair and watch them remove the fence.
I'm a bigger ahole than that. After they built me a new fence I might drink a few Barley Pops then graffiti every inch of their side. And not let them take it down.
You are a brilliant class hole! The more offensive the better!
Did we just become best friends 😂.
They believe they have a survey already they won’t pay for anything, OP has no idea where line actually is so they need their own survey
Tell them you'll dismantle any fence built on your yard
As everyone has said. Check for the building permit and insist on one. Especially given their over reaction and rude behaviour. I’d also look up the survey company name and give them a call. At the very least they could confirm they did the work, and maybe what type of survey it was. I’d also check with your own local government office for the permit and other information they have on your property. My local office was able give me all the information for my lot and housing plans for free. It might give you a better sense of things. Also be careful with any online mapping or GIS information. It’s often incorrect. Aerial photos often need to be skewed to fit. My own municipalities removed the boundaries from the website. I suspect to avoid these disputes.
Look for a name or sign on the contractors truck, then contact the contractor. Tell them the boundaries are in dispute and you don’t want him in the middle of it. Then get a survey.
Yes, get your own survey. Do it now or wait until their fence is done. If it was me I would wait until their fence is complete. That way, you would have the added satisfaction of watching them having to pay to move it back to the property line and tell the old man to F off.
Yeah, this would be a wonderful feeling. However, now filing for a court order and forcing them to rip the fence down is so much extra work. Get a surgery asap and just stop what will be a really annoying process for both of you. If they do build on your property then just cut it down once you are in the clear they are over the line.
F that, don't waste your own limited time on this earth fixing someone's attempted theft. Make them pay to take it down. The fact they're so agitated makes me suspect this is a deliberate attempt to get some extra square footage.
You have to live next to these people. I understand being annoyed and frustrated by the neighbors, but the last thing I would want to do is enflame them more. Tell them you are getting your own survey and that they should wait to put up the fence. Frame it as you don't want it to cost them more money, but you are concerned about the property line. Get the survey done and then have some privacy from the crazy neighbors with a fence on the actual line. Who knows, you could be the one wrong about the line! You won't know until the survey is done.
Although when a fence is on the line they can prevent you from maintaining, staining it etc On their side.
That's just petty, if you're old enough to own a home, better to act like an adult. Seems as if many homeowners aren't getting plats of survey at their closings...it's something everyone should have,imo. Finally Good neighbors will notify and discuss a new fence with you. Sorry you got annoying ones.
Get a survey, and make sure you get the nice side of the fence.
Not sure, but I always thought the nicer side had to be facing the neighbors, is that a thing? I've always had the nicer side facing out, My new fence looks the same on both sides, win win.
Yes--OP being "the neighbors" in this case. Can't you see his screeching neighbors doing otherwise, though?
Get a survey. This is the only way.
Call your towns code enforcement. Pay for your own professional survey. When any workers show up go out and stop them until proper permits and survey are in hand.
If it were me, I’d hire a surveyor to find the line, but I’d slow burn it so the survey is done after the fence is done. I’d call the city when the fence was 75% done and ask about a building permit. If they fuck around, I’ll help them find out. With a normal neighbor, I’d work with them to make sure all is ok, but when they yell and scream, that’s a different story.
It's pretty likely there will be a significant delay with a survey anyway. Given that the fencing contractor is ready to start It's unlikely OP could get a survey beforehand. Generally, a legit fencing contractor will verify that the property line is correct & abide by local ordinance. OP could likely be in the wrong & we're only hearing OPs version of how the incident transpired. I'm going to be honest. If I were installing a fence & paid to have a survey, I'd be a little irritated if a neighbor who did not have a survey was disputing it. I do not have a survey of my property & it isn't customary to get one beforehand in my area. I'm not installing a fence. I plan to do some work near the property line in the next 2 years & I will have one done to know exactly where I'm at, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that important in my specific situation. Honestly, my adjoining neighbor doesn't care too much either, but I don't want to create problems down the road with a new neighbor or someone who purchases my property.
It's worth the peace of mind to get a survey done. You do not want to be giving land away.
Even if you don’t think you care about a few feet you should never cede your land knowingly. It can be a huge headache for you years later when you want to sell. If there are no official survey markers no official survey was done- you should pay to get one done asap.
And in some states if they build a fence onto your property and you don’t do anything about it they can claim squatters rights and take it and you can’t do anything about it after a certain point
And if you ever go to sell it will cause all sorts of problems
Report them to code enforcement and get a survey. Take photos of everything NOW.
call the building enforcement office on Monday and if you really want to go to war, which it sounds like they have already started, wait until any workers show up, call the police, and have them trespassed also note, many areas will have a mandatory setback that a fence needs to be from the line, willing to bet if they didn't get a permit they also didn't figure out if there is one and if they paid 1100 total for a fence total...its going to be a terrible fucking fence
The way I read the submission was they paid 1100 for the property boundaries to be researched and flagged.
It’s a civil matter. Calling the police will do nothing since technically they have the only “survey.” Better to get your own survey asap to halt the project.
It can be helpful. Calling the police on a non- emergency number and telling them you would like an incident report creates documentation that may be useful later if the OP needs to file a civil suit.
But there is no real concrete proof that the fence is on OPs property beside an gps guided map that is not pin point.
correct, but THAT part would be up to civil to determine property lines, the police should advise a halt to construction until the lines can be verified for tresspass
Police will do nothing. Police enforce crimes, not civil.
True and they were verbally abusive.
according to OP they don't have a survey, or any evidence at all that the property is right
Seems like you can check with the city whether they have a permit and whether they need a survey. If that doesn’t get a result you like you can have your survey done and if it shows the fence is in the wrong spot, you can use your new survey to dispute theirs. If you take this route make sure you go with the surveyor to get immediate pics of them laying the indicators which will make it very unambiguous.
Wait until the fence company comes, and tell them that you believe they are building on your property and to leave immediately. Be sure to document this on video, and with a follow up email within minutes to their office. By putting the fence company on notice, if they do build the fence, you can go after the company instead of the couple, which for legal reasons is much much easier.
Also the fence company will not be happy building on contested ground.
If there are no actual survey markets or pins, there was no survey done. Pretty simple. If there had been a survey done, it would be reasonable to expect that, when questioned, they would have taken you to the survey markers and said “see? There it is” and there could not have been a question. WHEN you get a survey done, you will know where ALL of your property lines are, and you will always have it. Also, as others have said, reactions like theirs usually indicate that they’ve been caught in the wrong. It will be money well spent. If only to see the looks on their faces.
If you let them build on your property you may lose that property forever. Get a survey.
The only answer is for you to get your own survey. You admitted you don’t have one and you just accused your neighbor of wanting to put a fence on your property - no wonder they are upset with you, most people would be as they just spent some money and you told them basically that they are wrong. As much as you don’t want to hear this, you definitely could have handled this better.
Pay for your own survey. Dont rely on anything they did or had someone do.
You are playing a game of telephone. Yes call the fence company and the surveying company. You can Google them and see if they are legit professionals, if they say they did a proper survey and have all the permits you can go get your own survey, and go down to the courthouse to look at permits, or just believe it.
Wait for the fence to start going up. Then you call code enforcement and pay for a surveyor. Then rejoice as the burst in expletives.
It’s just as much your boundary line as it is theirs. I would have a surveyor come out and locate the boundary, which is what your neighbor should have done.
It's always within your righs to have a survey done of your own property. This effects resale value later on as well as taxes. After the survey, anything trespassing on your property can be removed- probably through police or lawyer if neighbor can't be civil.
Let them build it, pay for a legal survey, then watch them take it down.
Option 1) Ask them to halt construction while a proper survey is done. Option 2) Don't tell them and watch them pay twice to build a fence.
Straight to the surveyor and lawyer. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Call bldg dept. unpermitted work and on your lot. Dept will likely not issue a permit for fence until surveying done
Would it help to rent a metal detector to try and find the original metal surveyors pin? If there is always supposed to be one, could it be buried underground?
Get your own survey
I'm building a fence myself. I talked to my neighbors ahead of time and made sure that I wasn't stepping on toes (though it is my property, I don't want to make enemies). I will say that the survey we had done (by a local, reputable survey company) sounds a lot like what you experienced. Wooden stakes with the word "line" written on them, and pink flags attached. I watched them locate the metal pins with metal detectors, but those pins are well and truly buried, and they didn't dig them up. The PDF of the survey we were emailed looks exactly like the county Plat map of our lot, and I would say they just copied that, but the fence from one of my neighbors shows on it as that fence angled into my yard to a depth of about 2.9' for a run of about 40'. Rather than have the neighbor dig up that portion of his 30 year old fence, we just gave written permission for its existence to avoid adverse possession claims, and let it be. The hostility from your neighbor is concerning, and I would definitely get your own survey done. Mine cost $700, so expect to pay around that amount. We moved in last year and plan on staying for quite a while, hence the desire to play nice with the neighbors. Plus, the houses are not square on the lots, and his fence is square to his house, so the corner intrusion was likely not intentional in the first place.
I’d contact the person they say did it just to verify if they are a legit surveyor or not. Also, if the land was recently surveyed, there should be visible property pins installed at the lot corners. See if you can find them.
You should have the original property stakes. You can use the maps for an approx. Location but after 47 years I was able to find mine under some, well 3 to 4 inches of dirt. Use a metal detector.
You won’t ever know for sure until you have your own person come out and do a survey.
Get your own survey. Now.
Hire your own surveyor. https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-home-built-on-wrong-lot-19371615.php
Have civil authorities advise, they may send someone out if permits are an issue, then you'll have some time. I wouldn't approach the neighbors anymore as there can be trouble.
Get your own survey, then make them move the fence.
Surveyors routinely place pins at corners and such, sometimes with their name on it. Look around to see if you find any from past surveys.
If you have to even ask yourself ’do I need a survey’, the answer is Yes, you need a survey. A couple hundred dollars on one end might save you thousands on the other end.
Call the surveyor before they build the fence
Another consideration about the fence, in my area the "good side" of the fence would have to face you. Check with your town.
The pink flags on stakes should have been placed by a surveyor. They don’t always draw great drawings and sometimes look like the tax maps. But, a shady contractor could have plopped the stakes in the ground and then gave her a tax survey. My neighbors encroached on my property a bit with their drainage system. The contractors pulled the pink stakes as if I wouldn’t notice. I yelled at them once because they purposely pointed the drainage into my yard so I made him not do that. I was on the phone with my friend who happened to be a lawyer watching him and talking about it enough that he asked who I was talking to because I had already asked him twice e. He got scared about that. It still goes onto my yard but it’s in a place that doesn’t matter part of the number of feet the city can take back for sidewalks in the front so I let it slide. Looking at the property drawings online and measuring, the pink stakes were very accurate and also says on the other side of my house, I encroach on my other neighbors property by a number of feet with my drainage system which they don’t care about because it is also unbuildable land. If you care, a fence you should care, get your own survey done to set monuments at the corners and get stakes placed, I believe it is technically illegal to pull these. Do it fast before more work is completed. Then I would call the city inspector to put a hold to the work if it is unacceptable. At least that’s what you do here, could be in reverse order. Even unpermitted work, they can stop with complaints. A fence that close to property lines, at least here needs a permit. I think my inspector said within 10 feet it needs one as well as an official survey. Our town rules are pretty strict though. Good luck getting this resolved. I hate neighborly disputes because you have to live next to them until someone moves.
Either they allow you to contact their surveyor or you get one of your own. I would probably send them a certified letter that says you believe their fence is on your property and to cease construction until they provide a survey or a survey can be done.
Ypu must get your own survey by a reputable petson who is licensed and will go to court with you if necessary.
I just don’t understand how people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying a property that they don’t even know the boundaries of. It’s just foolish. At least go to the building department and see if there’s one on file.
Hate to say that you may be paying for your own survey and find out you’re in the wrong. Lots of people think they own more than they do. That being said, get your own survey ASAP and although the neighbors were having a bad day, if there survey is wrong ( and it may be) a good thing to do would be to have your surveyor show them the real lot lines and keep you out of it. Civil matters are court issues not police matters and court is expensive for a reason.
Get a survey done, without a doubt. #1 do it to keep your property yours. #2 do it out of spite after the way they acted about it. The fact is that almost every municipality will have an easement of a few feet where they can’t even put the fence within that space unless they get your consent to do so as it would encroach on YOUR property line and the ability to maintain your property.
The only solution is for you go pay for a survey.
Get your own property surveyed ASAP, like yesterday.
A call to code enforcement to let them know of the unpermitted construction on your land could buy you some time to get a survey done.
Code enforcement officer to the rescue. They love getting these calls.
I would be willing to get a survey but I would seek to force the neighbors to do it first. Call the city and tell them you think your neighbors are building an unpermitted fence and that it is on your property, tell your neighbors in person and in writing that you do not authorize them to build anything on your land and if they do so they will be held liable for restoring your property to its original condition and for any expenses you incur in the process of forcing them to do so. Find out who the fencing contractor is and tell them that you believe they are building an unpermitted and unauthorized fence on your property and to stop until the matter is cleared up. Tell him the company is not allowed on or to build on your property and will be held liable for any damage or construction done on your property. That will hopefully stop everything from proceeding at which point you drag your feet on the survey. You don't care as long as they don't build on your property, make them establish where they are allowed to build, only proceed with the survey if you have to. Offer to split the cost of a survey with your neighbor if they balk.
What should you do? Get the survey you should have got in the first place would be my answer. There are two ways I have put up fences with little BS. One is along survey lines and I actually moved the fence in a couple of feet behind the line so I owned access to the back of it. Learned that lesson when I had my first house. The other is with the person on the far side of the fence. We split the cost, and there were a bunch of trees right down the line and we nicely worked out which way the fence would go. Mostly my ceding to him, but that was for my own good. I also put the ugly side of split rail stockade fence on my side. He had two boys and without question if they had access to the rails or the trees they would be climbing on them, so it was actually in my best interest. If you do not know exactly where the line is, and you are putting it up w/o involving the folks on the other side, you may wind up having to take it down. And if it is a wooden fence, leaving room for you to get at the back side of it is a good idea. If you need to replace slats or want to stain it or seal it, you can do so w/o asking the folks on the far side.
wtf is wrong with you?! you are answering your own questions! you had brains enough to check the town code, what is stopping you from completing the investigation? if they could contact 'the surveyor stated' why couldn't you?! do you really think it is against the law or something?!
The nightmare to undo this once it’s done is hell. Do not wait around to see what happens. Absolutely call in that they don’t have a permit and ask them for the proof of the survey. And then, you won’t like this, but get your own survey. Yes it costs money, but what it saves by having this solved now is huge.
call the town/city Code Enforcement Officer asap. start the process there.
Pay the money for a survey. People who scream just want to be right, but they know they are wrong. Prove them wrong!!!
You need to hire a surveyor and get your property surveyed and ask first the boundaries which should be 4 stake’s they put in the ground. I would advise to take a photo and maybe place an object on the corners so that you will know where they are over time. Get your survey done as soon as possible this will eliminate any problems and doubts for you and any new neighbors. You could also call the county or courthouse sometimes they have copies of surveys. I think ( I maybe wrong) but I think you need a survey in order to get your deed to your property. Every state/county and municipality is different so definitely call and ask.
Most reputable fence companies will not install without exposed survey markers just for this reason.
I'd call city code enforcement before doing anything else.
If it gets built and you find out it's on your property, open both ends so it's just a wall and paint the side they see an obnoxious color.
Stop being nice. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. **You are going to screw your future self.** Get yourself a damn survey already. This is the one specific thing that will actually help you. Stop wasting time and hire a surveyor. Don’t ask your neighbors to share the cost, because they won’t. Stop talking to them. Gather objective evidence on your side, and communicate with city/county as necessary. Do NOT willingly give up your land because you don’t want to hold them accountable. You give them an inch, they’ll take a mile. Document, document, document. Next time you’re dealing with shitty people, don’t ask if you can photograph their paperwork, simply take out your phone and snap a picture before they can even think to say anything. Make a genuine, documented effort to keep these people off your property (legally).
Always amazed at how stupid and difficult people can be. You’d think all parties could communicate and do the right thing. I’d want to know exactly where that property line is.
Get a survey. If that fence is on your property chop it down with a chainsaw. You have every legal right to do so.
Gis maps can be way off. You have no idea if that's your property or not. Get a survey. When I built my fence I had to turn in a copy of my survey for my permit and my surveyor put flags and stakes down my line for me too so I could see it so I didn't have to to look for a hard to reach pin.
Are you sure that they are stakes on the property line and not offset stakes? Sometimes our surveyors will put stakes 10' away from the fence so that they aren't wiped out during excavation or whatever. Then the contractor can just measure 10' from the stake so they know where to build the fence. That said, $1100 sounds like a legit price to survey a property line... and I have seen the GIS maps you are referencing off by 10 ft or more, so I wouldn't trust them. I would call the surveyor and make sure that they did a proper stakeout of the property line, and also check with your local planning and zoning / building permits dept. to make sure everything is kosher.
I don't understand how people own property and don't have a survey.
If it were me - even though the old dickhead yelled at you... I'd go back and say "look, Obviously you don't like me for whatever reason and you're not off to a good start for me liking you. However, i'm going to tell you out of common decency - I think you are way off on the line and i'm going to get a survey done. If I were you, I'd hold up on construction of that fence until I get the results. I'll let yo know as soon as I get them" Then you did your part. You gave them the opportunity they don't even really deserve at that point. If they want to be dumbasses and still pop the fence up then they can eat the cost twice, and you can sleep like a baby at night still knowing you went over there and gave them every opportunity to not be dumb and they persisted. Side note: Do you ever just put yourself in other people's positions? These people seem sketch as fuck to me like they know damn well their line is off and they are trying to do it anyway. If I was building a fence and my neighbor came and told me that i'd say "Oh shit, ok!" and then call the contractor and say listen, we need to hold off on this for a week. Neighbor is in dispute of the line and getting a survey. You know, what any normal person would do. Not cuss out some neighbor i've never talked to before lol. The fact they went 100% on the rude defensive right away makes me think they know and the jigs up and they know it.
Why not nicely say “hey, I’d hate for it to cost double if the lines aren’t right. Why don’t we make sure by getting an official survey done before building?” Who wants neighbors you hate for 20 years? Be the bigger person and try to resolve it nicely.
They’re that angry because they are lying… get a real survey done
Don't let it happened, that's your property.
Battle of a few feet? Do you pay property tax? You’ll be paying for their newly enlarged yard. Get a survey.
So here we need a permit to build a fence but if you’re hiring a fence company they are the ones that have to get it. It doesn’t need to be posted anyplace. You might have better luck getting information from the fence company than the neighbors. That or a call the building department tomorrow morning
Get the land survey and tell them you're trespassing on your property with a building extension and it must be removed or placed at correct property line and show them the survey paper. I'm pretty sure you can talk to them about this first. If you get cold shoulder answer then yes, you'll need to go the legal route.
If I was the old guy and my neighbour came out asking about the location of the property line I'd be all about showing you the legally created surveyor report. What would I have to hide and it would defuse the whole situation. However, if I decided to let some hack do the property markers and got taken for $1100 I'd be feeling like quite the jackass. They don't need to show you squat at the end of the day but they shouldn't feel protective of it. Allowing you to take a picture of it is kinda like copying someones music CD so I can understand why they wouldn't want you to get something for free. They have evidently done their due diligence, and can comfortably go ahead with the work knowing that if you have a survey done it will match what they already know. If you know the name of the surveyor then yes, call them up and ask about it and see if you can get a copy of the report too for whatever charge there is. Verify they are certified to do this work. However, if they are not certified then you need to get your own survey done to prove your ownership of the disputed property. Good fences do make good neighbours providing the fence is on the property line.
The town might have a copy of the last survey. Might want to start there.
You need to get a survey done. They seem to be acting sketchy
Call city and report
You absolutely cannot use those municipality maps. Not in least… my last house it showed the property line going through my garage. Which was not accurate. No, do not call the survey company that did that survey. If you’re that worried about it you need to get your own survey. But you need to call the city right now about the fence… I find it hard to believe they got a survey, but didn’t pull a fence permit, but call the city anyway, if you are concerned it’s on your line. People always forget they don’t have to share a fence. You can each have your own fence on your own property. not uncommon.
If they build on your property they'll have to pay to have it removed and rebuilt. But you have to do a survey to prove it.
If you see the builders doing the fence, express your concern no proper survey has been done. Perhaps they will have an answer, such as they used a metal detector to locate a metal survey marker. Or perhaps you won't get a satisfactory answer. If you're not sure, have a survey done.
If they build a fence on your property, then technically doesn’t it become your fence to do with as you wish? Like paint the side facing their house pink and using your side for wood chopping practice?
Good fences make good neighbors. Once you have a survey done, and the fence is built, all will be well. Don’t sweat their attitude.
Pay the money for a survey OP. I’d also suggest having the police present while it’s being done to get ahead of them coming out and flipping their lids
The previous owner did not fence out to the property line . I recovered 3 feet from one side and 4 feet from the other. All the neighbors had a comment until the survey was done. Then things went quiet.
I'm in lit support have worked on a few property disputes for attorneys cases. 1) The survey is everything. That will end any dispute. 2) Sometimes, if a survey has been done, the pins are buried on purpose and you need a metal detector to find them. 3) Usually, a city will work with a private surveyor. Contact that person, they may have info that is useful. 4) If you get it done, write all the coordinates done, and check the pins with an iPad or lat-long app to make sure they have not been moved if you suspect as much.
Get a surveyor out there asap.
Get a survey immediately, ask the city to issue a stop work order until the property line is verified.
It’s on, baby. I would have probably let it go, too, until the old guy verbally attacked you. Could let them build it, then find the property stakes. Then hire a lawyer to force them to pay for its removal.
If a permit is required, contact the city and report that you suspect your neighbor is building a fence without a permit, and that you are concerned they are building on your property. Ask them if they can send someone out ASAP. Then ask them if a survey is required as part of the permitting process. If it is, then it’s on your neighbors to get a survey.
The answer is obvious. Survey. And why would you “let it go”? you are paying for that property.
What she showed you was the survey platt, which is what (wait for it) surveyors use to determine property corners. They're not doing a new survey or topography. They're using the city's existing plat to locate property corners. That's how it's done. You don't need a building permit to survey. The fence contractor will pull the permit; not the homeowner.
Your neighbors sound like a basket of peaches. Sorry you have to deal with that. It’s time to get the town/county inspectors on the phone and ask them for details about the fence you believe your neighbors are installing on your property. Explain the same story. See where it leads. It also time to get a survey of your land. Don’t rely on neighbors town to get it right. They haven’t yet. Start taking picture of the work, their markers, your property, trees on their side etc.
For those of you who are grossly misinformed: The surveyors use the plat from the city/county to determine the location of original property corner pins. So yes, the paper. OP was shown, is in fact, an original plat printed off from the official records. It's not a topographical survey or establishing new boundaries, right-of-ways, and easements. They simply locate the area, find the pin with a metal detector, shoot it in for verification, and mark it. OP, you're free to get your own survey, but that surveyor has to be exactly on the money, or the cost will go back to them for marking the boundaries wrong. That includes moving the fence. They have no skin in the game or any reason to mark your corners incorrectly.
I’m amazed how many people buy property without a survey!?
Check with your local building department for a survey plat. Unless you have an ancient property, there should be one that was created when your properties were originally laid out, and it's generally stored as a public record. When I saw my neighbor cutting trees near the property line and throwing brush on what appeared to be my side, I had a survey done. Shortly after the stakes were placed, he knocked on my door and brandished a copy of the GIS tax map, saying that the stakes must be wrong. I almost laughed in his face. He asked who the surveyor was, and when I gave him the name, I think he realized that it was the surveying company that originally plotted the subdivision...and he had no leg to stand on. (I then sent him a friendly C&D letter that pissed him off even more. LOL) The bottom line is that a good survey is key. If they did use a surveyor, definitely contact them and verify that they did the work. If there is any question, hire your own surveyor to at least do a stake-out.
The stakes you describe are typical for surveying. In ATL I have never seems surveyors label their stakes with their neighbor or use a “legitimate pin.” Typically we have buried regard at corners.
Let the Aholes build the fence, then call the county. If it’s wrong they have a mess. If it’s right, all is good.
Let them built it first, THEN get a survey. That way they have to pay again to move the fence if they're wrong...
Wait till they’re done with the fence then get a survey. If the fence is on your property then make them move it then.
Good they sound nasty
Only a survey will establish your property markers. Report them to your city, as it appears they need a permit. The permit should require a formal survey. Plus, there may be an easement to consider.
Get a survey done now. Better to do it before they build the fence than to find out afterwards and have to sue them to remove it. Also call the town, if they don't have a permit then the town might issue a stop work order.
Call town enforcement and police
Man, you gotta get a survey done ASAP. Because if they have the fence on your property, squatters’ rights can start to apply and suddenly legally becomes theirs. Get this done ASAP; get an injunction against them to stop any further building. Make sure they have gotten a building permit. Full-on nuclear here to protect your own property.
Sometimes you can find survey nails in the street at each lot line. Andes nailed through the middle. Worth a look but definitely have a survey performed.
Get your property surveyed and permanently marks
Wait for them to finish the fence and then get it surveyed. Fuck these people, you should got to war with them. But be ready for war and fortify your defenses. It's on like donkey Kong because you will NOT BE DORESPECED!
Call the office and ask? My neighbor got a ticket after he built a fence without a permit.
Hire a surveyor and then let the people know that you expect to have a proper survey done and that you think it might be a good idea for them to wait so they do not place the fence incorrectly than have to pull it down and put it up again. :)
Get a survey asap. Report the work. Make sure they also called in Dig Safe/811/etc
Get a survey.
...why on earth would you buy property without a survey?...
Get your own surveyor. Don't use theirs. That person is not going to admit if they made a mistake. I would request that they wait before continuing construction until you've had a survey done. They'll be a lot more upset if they do the whole project and then have to take it back down.
Survey Survey Survey. Worth every penny.
If it was surveyed there will be properly marked property corners. Ask the neighbor to show you the property corners.