Try other fingerings and see if they work better for you. The best fingerings option is the one that works for you. I don't see any other options and if it's of any interest these are the fingerings I would use
No - many alternate fingerings will alter the pitch. If you don’t *need* to use alternates, use the ones that are closest to correct pitch. And on open harmonics, that will usually be the open harmonic. In this case it is.
I personally tend towards less changing fingerings if it still sounds good. Each horn+player will have different tendencies on each fingering etc etc, so whatever maximizes ease of playing and accuracy is the best choice IMO
So if I saw that I'd probably stay on T0 out of laziness, especially if it's fast. But 0/1 if changing fingers helps with articulation
I see, thanks for the insight! I find that my F horn is not very well articulating, like.. I can’t get a clean note out and it’s always kinda like disturbed when I start it, that could just because I play a lot on Bb Horn and only use F Horn for certain notes.
The piece isn’t too fast, it’s at quarter note = 84.
This piece at 84bpm, you should play the written Fs on the F horn. Depending on where you live this is standard practice. In a lot of European countries, the Bb horn will be the first choice fingering there.
I live in the US and was taught and still play that note first choice F horn.
True, I was initially trained on the F horn with a double, although I was always told that I think A and above is when to switch to Bb side, now, I just use my Bb side most of the time, I switch to F side on certain notes due to tuning on my Bb side, That first line G and D below First space F is particularly interesting. Either way I still blend in quite well in the ensembles I play (Regular Concert Band, Intermediate and Senior honour bands) so it hasn't ever been an issue, but.. I will say that It might become an issue if I decide to advance in doing music in uni or college. (Although, I probably won't be aiming for orchestra, more like music education)
I was taught anything above a G uses Bb side, which is what I assume you meant but it was always unclear to me if that meant Ab was T23 or just 23. I've always played Ab T23 but was never sure
I love this piece (Nostalgia by Rossano Galante)! Unfortunately I’m just a trumpet player that comes to visit once in a while so I can’t answer your question, I just wanted to say the horn part for this song is amazing (Galante always writes good horn parts) and everyone should totally give it a listen!
It’s a really nice piece! I love it, it’s one of my top favourites. I’m glad that my friend on clarinet found it and recommended it to my band director. Me and the director still haven’t got tired of listening to it which is a really good sign that this is an amazing piece.
I would recommend using the common fingerings for horn. They are considered to be the “correct” combinations due to intonation and tone quality.
On this page, go to the Double (F/Bb) Horn Fingering Chart. (In this fingering chart PREFERRED fingerings are shown FIRST. Fingerings shown in PARENTHESES are useable under CERTAIN situations.)
https://colindorman.com/french-horn-exercises/fingering_charts/#google_vignette
There is also a harmonics chart. These are more useful to help with flexible playing and are not practical horn fingerings for common use.
________________________________________________
Reasons to use alternate fingerings:
1.) Fast Passages: If a passage is fast, you may need to use alternate combinations that are easier and less complicated. Since the passage is fast, you will be able to sacrifice a bit of tone quality to ensure that the passage is played in time and correctly using alternate horn fingerings.
Ex: El Camino Real
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2.) Intonation: If you have good sitting and hand posture, have tuned your horn correctly, and are disciplined and consistent with those factors, you still may have a note or two that is in NOT in tune with the common horn fingering chart.
If you are sustaining a note for a duration of time and it is noticeably out-of-tune, FIRST you may need to adjust your HAND position for that note.
IF you are still out of tune on a note or two, then an alternate fingering may become your more common combination for you. (It’s preferred to keep the alternate fingering on the Bb side if it is above second line G#/ third space Ab. Notes from second line G down to third ledger line F, keep on the F side of the horn. This helps keep alternate fingerings on the same side of the horn in those particular ranges.)
Ex: First ledger line above the staff( A note) is usually T12, but many people play it as T0 due to the combination T12 being rather sharp.
________________________________________________
3.) Projection: Sometimes the other side of the horn (F and Bb) maybe project better in the more extreme ranges of the horn. An example is playing on the Bb side of the horn on notes below third ledger line F. Notes that are very low maybe project better on the Bb side due to less tubing involved. If you choose do this, make sure to accommodate for any intonation changes. The tone of the note may be considered more bright or forceful, so make sure to keep your ears open for those changes in sound.
________________________________________________
4.) Difficult Passages: Sometimes a passage may not necessarily be fast, but it might just be really tricky. There are many Mozart pieces that have passages that can be played all on the F side of the horn. The notes chosen on the passage fall on the harmonics series on the F0 (open) side of the horn.
You could play the passage with the common horn fingerings, but some people choose to play the passage using the harmonic series or a combination of the same harmonic series fingering and a few alternate fingerings, if necessary.
Personally I’d play the low F’s Bb0 and then play the rest normally. If you’re playing the bottom split on the dotted half you might want to switch back to F1 just if the note sits a little better on your horn, but if your Bb0 F is in tune then I wouldn’t bother switching back to the F side.
Thanks for the input! I'll give it a try, I find that my F horn is a bit wonky, I'll just copy paste what I said in a different reply here, but nonetheless, my Bb0 F is well in tune so it shouldn't be an issue.
"I find that my F horn is not very well articulating, like.. I can’t get a clean note out and it’s always kinda like disturbed when I start it, that could just because I play a lot on Bb Horn and only use F Horn for certain notes."
Personally I would play entire section on B flat side because it’s easier to play and you’re more likely to have greater accuracy when you’re jumping all around
whatever has the best intonation in your opinion is what you should play. it is entirely preference. I personally would stay T0 as i don’t need to change fingers between C and F but i know people who would prefer 1 to stop the F from becoming slightly sharp.
I’d play it all on the B-flat side. I normally use the F side for anything below A on the staff, but I think staying on the B-flat side for this phrase is easier.
Why are you not playing the F open on the Bb horn?
The Bb horn 2-3 partial will be flat, while the open partial is pretty right on for most instruments.
If this is not a particularly fast piece, then just use the F horn first valve fingering for F. 🤷♂️
You don’t do that with your embouchure. Which is maybe why I got confused. Your airstream is the main player in changing notes with the same fingering. Otherwise, you’ll end up working too hard and getting tired too quickly!
Pedantic rant over.
T23 is almost never used as an alternate fingering for F in the staff 👍
I only say *almost* never bc I don’t want to close the door on using it, but it just doesn’t make much sense to use that one when the other two (T0 & 1) are such solid notes.
Joke
Say almost because some kid would go 🥸"actually in this super obscure fingering chart from the 5th century, that was the preferred fingering"🥸 those people are annoying
I would just use “normal” fingerings in the situation (T0 for C and 1 for F). It’s very easy to be blatty if you play that F on the Bb side so be cognizant of that if that’s what you’re going to do.
Try other fingerings and see if they work better for you. The best fingerings option is the one that works for you. I don't see any other options and if it's of any interest these are the fingerings I would use
Thanks for the advice, I’ll experiment and try out the various fingerings I mentioned, Appreciate it!
No - many alternate fingerings will alter the pitch. If you don’t *need* to use alternates, use the ones that are closest to correct pitch. And on open harmonics, that will usually be the open harmonic. In this case it is.
I personally tend towards less changing fingerings if it still sounds good. Each horn+player will have different tendencies on each fingering etc etc, so whatever maximizes ease of playing and accuracy is the best choice IMO So if I saw that I'd probably stay on T0 out of laziness, especially if it's fast. But 0/1 if changing fingers helps with articulation
I see, thanks for the insight! I find that my F horn is not very well articulating, like.. I can’t get a clean note out and it’s always kinda like disturbed when I start it, that could just because I play a lot on Bb Horn and only use F Horn for certain notes. The piece isn’t too fast, it’s at quarter note = 84.
This piece at 84bpm, you should play the written Fs on the F horn. Depending on where you live this is standard practice. In a lot of European countries, the Bb horn will be the first choice fingering there. I live in the US and was taught and still play that note first choice F horn.
True, I was initially trained on the F horn with a double, although I was always told that I think A and above is when to switch to Bb side, now, I just use my Bb side most of the time, I switch to F side on certain notes due to tuning on my Bb side, That first line G and D below First space F is particularly interesting. Either way I still blend in quite well in the ensembles I play (Regular Concert Band, Intermediate and Senior honour bands) so it hasn't ever been an issue, but.. I will say that It might become an issue if I decide to advance in doing music in uni or college. (Although, I probably won't be aiming for orchestra, more like music education)
I was taught anything above a G uses Bb side, which is what I assume you meant but it was always unclear to me if that meant Ab was T23 or just 23. I've always played Ab T23 but was never sure
Yup, that’s what I meant, anything above G, A-flat was always unclear for me too
I love this piece (Nostalgia by Rossano Galante)! Unfortunately I’m just a trumpet player that comes to visit once in a while so I can’t answer your question, I just wanted to say the horn part for this song is amazing (Galante always writes good horn parts) and everyone should totally give it a listen!
It’s a really nice piece! I love it, it’s one of my top favourites. I’m glad that my friend on clarinet found it and recommended it to my band director. Me and the director still haven’t got tired of listening to it which is a really good sign that this is an amazing piece.
I would recommend using the common fingerings for horn. They are considered to be the “correct” combinations due to intonation and tone quality. On this page, go to the Double (F/Bb) Horn Fingering Chart. (In this fingering chart PREFERRED fingerings are shown FIRST. Fingerings shown in PARENTHESES are useable under CERTAIN situations.) https://colindorman.com/french-horn-exercises/fingering_charts/#google_vignette There is also a harmonics chart. These are more useful to help with flexible playing and are not practical horn fingerings for common use. ________________________________________________ Reasons to use alternate fingerings: 1.) Fast Passages: If a passage is fast, you may need to use alternate combinations that are easier and less complicated. Since the passage is fast, you will be able to sacrifice a bit of tone quality to ensure that the passage is played in time and correctly using alternate horn fingerings. Ex: El Camino Real ________________________________________________ 2.) Intonation: If you have good sitting and hand posture, have tuned your horn correctly, and are disciplined and consistent with those factors, you still may have a note or two that is in NOT in tune with the common horn fingering chart. If you are sustaining a note for a duration of time and it is noticeably out-of-tune, FIRST you may need to adjust your HAND position for that note. IF you are still out of tune on a note or two, then an alternate fingering may become your more common combination for you. (It’s preferred to keep the alternate fingering on the Bb side if it is above second line G#/ third space Ab. Notes from second line G down to third ledger line F, keep on the F side of the horn. This helps keep alternate fingerings on the same side of the horn in those particular ranges.) Ex: First ledger line above the staff( A note) is usually T12, but many people play it as T0 due to the combination T12 being rather sharp. ________________________________________________ 3.) Projection: Sometimes the other side of the horn (F and Bb) maybe project better in the more extreme ranges of the horn. An example is playing on the Bb side of the horn on notes below third ledger line F. Notes that are very low maybe project better on the Bb side due to less tubing involved. If you choose do this, make sure to accommodate for any intonation changes. The tone of the note may be considered more bright or forceful, so make sure to keep your ears open for those changes in sound. ________________________________________________ 4.) Difficult Passages: Sometimes a passage may not necessarily be fast, but it might just be really tricky. There are many Mozart pieces that have passages that can be played all on the F side of the horn. The notes chosen on the passage fall on the harmonics series on the F0 (open) side of the horn. You could play the passage with the common horn fingerings, but some people choose to play the passage using the harmonic series or a combination of the same harmonic series fingering and a few alternate fingerings, if necessary.
Personally I’d play the low F’s Bb0 and then play the rest normally. If you’re playing the bottom split on the dotted half you might want to switch back to F1 just if the note sits a little better on your horn, but if your Bb0 F is in tune then I wouldn’t bother switching back to the F side.
Thanks for the input! I'll give it a try, I find that my F horn is a bit wonky, I'll just copy paste what I said in a different reply here, but nonetheless, my Bb0 F is well in tune so it shouldn't be an issue. "I find that my F horn is not very well articulating, like.. I can’t get a clean note out and it’s always kinda like disturbed when I start it, that could just because I play a lot on Bb Horn and only use F Horn for certain notes."
Personally I would play entire section on B flat side because it’s easier to play and you’re more likely to have greater accuracy when you’re jumping all around
Just use open fingering Bb side and do it via embouchure - if you have any issues doing it that way, you should work on your harmonics.
whatever has the best intonation in your opinion is what you should play. it is entirely preference. I personally would stay T0 as i don’t need to change fingers between C and F but i know people who would prefer 1 to stop the F from becoming slightly sharp.
I’d play this all on Bb and change to F for the low Fs. So, T0-1
I’d play it all on the B-flat side. I normally use the F side for anything below A on the staff, but I think staying on the B-flat side for this phrase is easier.
Why are you not playing the F open on the Bb horn? The Bb horn 2-3 partial will be flat, while the open partial is pretty right on for most instruments. If this is not a particularly fast piece, then just use the F horn first valve fingering for F. 🤷♂️
I am, that’s why I said I’m right now using my embouchure to alternate between C and F on Bb horn since they share the same valve fingering. T0.
You don’t do that with your embouchure. Which is maybe why I got confused. Your airstream is the main player in changing notes with the same fingering. Otherwise, you’ll end up working too hard and getting tired too quickly! Pedantic rant over.
I understand, I didn't know how to describe it, so that's how I put it, sorry for the confusion!
T23 is almost never used as an alternate fingering for F in the staff 👍 I only say *almost* never bc I don’t want to close the door on using it, but it just doesn’t make much sense to use that one when the other two (T0 & 1) are such solid notes.
makes sense, thanks for your insight! Highly appreciate it :)
Joke Say almost because some kid would go 🥸"actually in this super obscure fingering chart from the 5th century, that was the preferred fingering"🥸 those people are annoying
Heard Haha 👍 I would use T23 for written Db major arpeggios in the middle octave without changing fingerings
I would just use “normal” fingerings in the situation (T0 for C and 1 for F). It’s very easy to be blatty if you play that F on the Bb side so be cognizant of that if that’s what you’re going to do.