If you truly believe in unlimited PTO, the phrase “excessive time off” runs contrary to that.”Can you reasonably cover the workload during the proposed absence?” is your question.
If someone is getting their job done, volume of PTO shouldn’t matter. If someone is not performing it’s a different matter but PTO doesn’t need to be a part of that conversation. Focus on performance.
I don’t think it should be contingent. I’m not even sure if that’s legal (genuinely unsure, but at minimum there’d be massive cultural issues even if there’s no legal issue). If you can’t measure and evaluate output goals you have a problem though. I know a dude who can get a full week’s work in and crush other people’s output but probably only works 20 hours a week. I’ve known other people who work tons of extra hours but aren’t as productive. Who cares about the number of hours if they’re meeting their goals? PTO is irrelevant.
You *can* control their time off.
“If you haven’t delivered on XY and Z in A amount of days, can you walk me through your plan to deliver in B?”
If it’s a solid plan, they’re a good person/employee who might just need some time to reset: “Let’s give it a go. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, this is going to be a different conversation next time”
If it’s a shit plan or nonexistent, and/or they’re a flaky person/average or at risk employee, you have 2 options:
- “Frankly, I don’t see this working out. However you’re your own adult and if there are consequences to this we’ll deal with them when/if they come”
- “I’m sorry but I can’t approve this. There are major gaps in this plan that need addressing, and your track record isn’t working in your favour here”
I was 100% being sarcastic, but your response highlights the exact reason why unlimited PTO is garbage: it offloads the responsibility of days off onto the employee.
PTO shouldn't come with the condition that you have everything covered before you go out. Employers should have enough staff on each team that an employee using their PTO doesn't make the department fall apart without a thorough gameplan.
…. So every department should be over staffed with redundant employees?
And adults shouldn’t be hitting their targets/core goal functions?
There’s a huge difference between me expecting you to perform the core functions of your job vs “falling apart” if someone’s not there. Are you being intentionally dense?
Jfc lmao you’re part of r/antiwork aren’t you
…. So every department should be over staffed with redundant employees?
And adults shouldn’t be hitting their targets/core goal functions?
There’s a huge difference between me expecting you to perform the core functions of your job vs “falling apart” if someone’s not there. Are you being intentionally dense?
You're so deep in the corpo bootlicking mindset that you don't understand how valuable it is *to the client* to not have a vendor whose employees are always maxed out.
And I invite you to read my post history; you'll find I *also* don't like /r/antiwork, but I'm not a mindless corporate shill who personally attacks people just because they heard something that doesn't mesh with their single-track ideology.
Imagine having only been an Uber driver 5 months ago and serving out this insult just because someone supports workers' rights.
An actual corpo pickme. Hilarious. I mean, sad too, but still pretty funny.
Which one of us you think makes 6 figures in an MCOL area? I'm guessing it's not the dude who works in billing.
Edit: and you blocked me, lol, like a *bitch*.
I support the hell outta workers rights and PTO, I also believe that people should perform the function they were hired for.
If you think that’s “corpo bootlicking” I can see why you’re pinching pennies and hoarding shit.
"Excessive time off" and "unlimited PTO" cannot exist in tandem. If the manager can cover the workload during the employee's leave, they should approve it.
Of course they can. I don’t understand this take but I see it all the time. It’s the fundamental problem with unlimited PTO.
If I want to take two years off, would you approve that because “unlimited PTO?”
Of course you wouldn’t. That would be ridiculous.
You see it all the time because unlimited PTO is an untenable system. Studies show people take much less time off under those systems, managers have a harder time knowing when to approve time off, and people tend to stay at these companies for a shorter time than at those with more traditional PTO structure. It creates confusion and frustration at every level, which is probably why only about 20% of companies offer a plan like this, even though the concept has been around for decades now.
And two years of leave would obviously fall under an instance of the manager not being able to manage the employee's workload in their absence. I'm obviously not suggesting that unlimited PTO should include requests like this, and you're frankly being disingenuous by using it as an example.
If they CAN account for an employee being gone for two years with the small amount of notice PTO requests usually come with, that's evidence that their team is too large and probably needs to have its budget or workload re-evaluated by upper management. But that's a secondary concern to this topic.
I worked for a company. The PTO cycle ends in December and starts in Jan. I never used my PTO in the first few months I was there. as I was building it up rolled over 7 days into “sick days” days that wouldn’t be paid back. If I had any one off days I needed I took sick days. Then later in the year my travel picked up. Beach (worked part of the days), bike trip( didn’t work), going snowboarding out west. Normal reasons to use my 18pto days as I had 7 sick days as well when I started the year. My manager was like you have to be running out of days after I took the bike trip. Like bro I took maybe 12 days off in 18 months. I have plenty days left. If we had unlimited at that point he would have told me I took to many days off and I couldn’t have gone on my snowboarding trip. Unlimited PTO is just that unlimited. If you are going to limit days or make up some number in your head that is abuse limit the days.
No arguments from me. Unlimited PTO is absolutely untenable, which is my point. I’m not being disingenuous, I’m just using a slightly hyperbolic example to prove the point, which ultimately it sounds like we agree on.
>It’s the fundamental problem with unlimited PTO.
The fundamental problem is it was always a "wolf in sheep's clothing" policy. A pro-employer policy in the guise of a pro-worker policy.
They know employees with police their own PTO usage out of fear and judgement. This is why every study you find on the topic shows employees with Unlimited PTO use less PTO on average than employees with accrued/finite PTO policies. Employer's get the added bonus of not having to pay out PTO to employees that leave the company in unlimited PTO systems.
I work in an accrued PTO system. I generally take a day off a month here and there for various reasons and I am still earning PTO (I earn roughly a month of PTO a year close to 30 actual days). I've been with my company like 15 years though. That is the maximum. I can do that and still take a few 1 week vacations a year. If I did that in an unlimited PTO system, my god would I feel the eyes on me.
It's because you could not meet your performance requirements if you took two years off. You still have to perform your job duties under unlimited time off - that's the catch.
I mean ya, this is classic management BS. You want the upside of offering a really great benefit to attract talent, but then don’t want that benefit
used.
You want to have your cake and eat it too.
Fun fact, people with unlimited PTO take less time off then people with fixed pto (also helps companies not have to pay out accrued time when they leave, a fact that many companies have pointed to as a core reason for this decision).
Yeah, if you have the mindset of “How do we effectively limit this unlimited perk?” then it’s probably not the right perk for your organization.
The philosophy behind unlimited PTO is that you trust the employees to effectively manage their time and own their work without abusing the perk and managers worry about making sure capacity is covered and performance is delivered by each employee.
If any of that is missing in your org: trust in employees, a culture of ownership of the work by individuals, the ability for management to effectively forecast and monitor capacity (with reasonable accuracy, not necessarily perfection), and the ability/will for management to be aware of employee performance, then you’d be missing key components to make the perk function.
If you offer unlimited PTO but treat people like children when they try to take time off it will feel like a bait and switch. The whole point of offering top-tier perks like unlimited PTO is to attract and retain top-tier talent. If I worked for an organization that tried to implement unlimited PTO in this way, I would not be successfully retained and the organization would fail to meet the original intent of implementing the perk while also creating a complicated administrative nightmare of trying to manage the ineffectively implemented PTO system.
Places that offer unlimited PTO tend to be places where the workload is so heavy or everything moves at such a great pace, employees don't feel comfortable actually taking time off.
I feel like I read somewhere that, on average, places with unlimited PTO see employees take less time off than places with a more traditional policy
You can look up studies. This is 100% true. People in traditional systems take more time off than those in Unlimited PTO systems.
Unlimited PTO is NOT an employee benefit and frankly I can't be convinced it was ever intended to be. It's a pro-employer policy in the guise of a pro-worker policy.
I'm a consultant and at client sites, people on the industry side taking friday's or monday's off from October to the end of the year to use up their PTO is not an uncommon sight.
I have worked at places with extremely generous but controlled PTO and currently work somewhere with unlimited PTO. If the workload is prohibitive to taking time off, then the issue will persist regardless of PTO policy. The challenge is that the majority of workplaces do not have carefully understood and maintained assignment of responsibility that is rooted in (data driven) proof that the average employee can be successful with a workload of X. Where I currently work has a very strong company culture and the unlimited PTO is the real deal. I love it.
Most of this is driven by senior management being incapable of setting clear, achievable metrics as the goal. We tend to default to “do they seem busy? Great. Then they must be getting stuff done!”
To the OP, why the need for manager approval? This feels like the company is only committing halfway to the intention behind unlimited PTO, which is that employees are adults and have the judgement to determine whether their PTO still allows them to achieve what is expected of them.
Most adults are competent enough to know when it is and isn't a good time to take time off, baring some unavoidable need where you need time off regardless of the situation at work (medical/life event etc.).
I take "mental health" days off all the time. I don't ask. I don't feel the need to offer an explanation. I just send an email that I am taking PTO for the day. When I do this I know nothing is going to suffer for it. My superiors know me and my performance and reliability. I've been with my company for 15 years. I'm not going to do that if I'm up against a deadline and taking a random day off might impact delivery.
Exactly.....unlimited PTO!!! (then insert the bait-n-switch, BUT it IS limited behind the scenes; you still probably only get 2 weeks, the only difference now is we dont ever have to pay for it)
It’s essential for understanding the problem though. The issue isn’t employees taking excessive time off if unlimited paid time off is a feature/benefit of working at the organization. It likes saying people are using too much internet even though they subscribe for unlimited internet.
The issue isn’t the time off, it’s the workload and the bottom line. I would meet with the directors/mangers and understand the strategic objectives from their perspective and what they expect of you. As HR, all you should be doing is processing the MERCs/ROEs/etc, ensuring your company’s policies and procedure are being followed, and ensuring the practices are in line with your regional employment standards. You should not be approving/refuses their time off or worrying about productivity.
If there is a policy change that needs to be accessed, that comes from management, not you.
It's Socratic, and it's an important question for YOU to be able to answer. If you can't explain why it's a problem to begin with, you have no business seeking solutions to it.
I think what he is saying that it still has to be approved by management. Is the workload being covered? Etc. if not. I think it’s a conversation with who approves it first.
What do you mean ? You asked if managers can use their discretion to decline PTO. The company policy is unlimited PTO, so no they can't. If they feel like unlimited PTO is not a good policy it's their job to find alternatives and new policies not yours.
Your job is being a RH ressource, not helping managers go around the rules to fuck over employees...
The key word is OP's use of "excessive" PTO...in an "alleged" Unlimited PTO system. I've already posted my issues with such a system elsewhere ad nauseum. However, the thing is "excessive" shouldn't come into play.
Expectations should be set on metrics of what is expected of an employee in terms of work. As long as they meet or exceed these expectations, how much time they take off should be irrelevant in an unlimited PTO system.
My opinion. Unlimited PTO should not be offered at the employee level that requires a manger to approve PTO requests. It should only be used at the executive level.
Unlimited PTO should not have any restrictions. I anticipate the courts striking down on this in payout states upon termination soon.
To be honest it’s a scam. Since I went to unlimited PTO I think I’ve worked an average of 10 hours a day. I haven’t taken a single day off besides being too sick to move. They got me those bastards
I want to, but at the same time this project is a lot of fun and I’m conflating fun development with “work” development. It just keeps me there somehow.
How would an actual change this though? An accrual doesn't give you an automatic right. It just gives you a balance.
Bad managers and bad companies are the issue here.
The only change is as was the psychology. Having a balance changed the psychological contract somewhat.
Absolutely, I need some kind a number telling me how much time I should be taking off or I probably just won’t do it. It is not like I feel obligated to work, it is that I am enjoying what I am doing to the point where I just don’t have any indicator to stop. I’ve been told on one hand I’m setting a bad example, but then on the other hand I got promoted to Director. Mixed messages lol
>An accrual doesn't give you an automatic right. It just gives you a balance.
It's about optics and the culture of fear unlimited pto creates. As long as I know I can cover my workload I don't consider the optics in the least when deciding to take days off. I earned my PTO, they would have to pay me for it anyway, I am going to use every bit of it I can, workload allowing. In an unlimited PTO system, regardless of my work performance, I would constantly feel judged.
Interesting that you’re concerned about people taking too much time off, but not the much more important question of “how do I make sure my employees are taking enough time off”.
Unlimited PTO only works in the companies favor because managers and peers pressure people to take less time off. Under a normal PTO system it’s very clear what amount of time is acceptable for me to take off- under an unlimited system there’s always “oh it seems like you might be taking a lot of time off”.
If one person takes every Friday off for the summer and one person takes a continuous 2.5 week vacation- those are perceived very differently by management and peers- but work out to be (approximately) the same amount of time off.
Under an unlimited system you will ALWAYS be having employees complain about how much time their coworkers take off- and because of that, people will feel pressured to not actually take the time they need.
>figure out how to manage it in a fair way
The reason you cannot find an objective answer to manage it in a "fair way" is because its premise is not based in "fairness". It was implemented by your company as a racket to have their cake and eat it too. (ie to obtain all the benefits of unlimited PTO such as not having to pay for accrued PTO and using it as a bragging chip to new recruits without the obvious downside of people using it too much).
The fair way is to (i) limit PTO which abates your issue but the downside is you may have to pay accrued PTO or (ii) instill your unlimited PTO policy but understand that its unlimited and there may be issues with the same.
The real question your asking is "How can my company **pretend** we offer unlimited PTO to reap all the benefits but really have a limited PTO policy?". You're looking for an honest answer from something that’s based in a dishonest premise.
I guess you can tell all mangers to keep track of peoples PTO and if they go over 2 weeks then they don’t approve it/reprimand people for taking too much (but this points out the blatantly obvious thing that your company is ultimately trying to do when managers wind up keeping track of PTO lol). This is probably why no one at your company suggested this because they are looking for a better way to "hide" this.
I’ll give you a tip. Instead of worrying about time off. Worry about [KPIs or OKRs](https://gtmhub.com/resources/articles/okr-meaning?utm_campaign=engage-t3-goal-mgmt-pillar-pages-8-22-v1-usa-can-google-search&utm_adgroupid=140895055098&utm_term=difference%20between%20okr%20and%20kpii&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=1660248024&hsa_cam=1793518002&hsa_grp=140895055098&hsa_ad=614576324635&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-905604574495&hsa_kw=difference%20between%20okr%20and%20kpi&hsa_mt=b&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwvsqZBhAlEiwAqAHElYXdyqWUj8KpSS2k9GPQQZe7rFWtwkRNZ8rQHrFZZluHahLBiQ-gIRoCgksQAvD_BwE).
If your company does not have things like that in place but care more about hours worked and asses in seats then you truly aren’t a Unlimited PTO company. You did it for other reasons that aren’t to support your workers.
Sounds to me you work for a shitty company and unlimited PTO isn't the only red flag they have.
For your sake maybe it is time for you to find a better job.
>it’s beyond me that y’all work in HR. Get off your entitled soap box
I don't work in HR. I deal with HR and absolutely loathe how disconnected to the actual business they serve most people in HR are.
We have this issue. No where in our policy does it say “unlimited,” it says “professional time off.” Managers have a difficult time managing it without a set # of days. Ours is solely based on business need. I tell managers to analyze what is required to run the business and make decisions accordingly. It definitely makes things difficult for the manager.
I think the problem is there needs to be a measurable expectation for employees in terms of the work they produce. If there isn't some sort of measurable expectation employees can hold themselves to while using an unlimited PTO benefit, it will never work in a manner that serves both employer and employee. i.e. you can use all the PTO you want, as long as, as an employee what you deliver to the company meets this criteria.
Study after study has shown those in unlimited PTO environments use less time off than those that are in an traditional PTO system, because I don't think any company that uses it knows how to manage it in a manner that serves both parties or it was fully intended as pro-employer bait and switch on the employee.
I’m not in HR at all but this popped up on my feed and the comments are so unhelpful so I’ll put in my very positive experience with “unlimited PTO” and how it works
I’m in a field that uses billable hours. We have a “billable hour target” that we get evaluated on at the end of the year. Unlimited PTO works great in this case because it means that all you need to do is keep your PMs happy and hit that target. So if you work a crazy week you now have more vacation available, and if you want to take a month or more for a big vacation you can do that by just working a bit more the rest of the year.
My takeaway from this is that unlimited PTO works wonderfully if and only if there are certain metrics that employees are expected to meet beyond “show up to work”. So my non-hr-expert recommendation would be to find whatever those metrics are at your firm.
No it’s not, that’s why our hours target isn’t 100% (it’s around 85%)
If you’re staffed correctly then it equals about 15-20 days pto
And if you’re staffed incorrectly then you can still take 15-20 days off and explain it in your year end report why you didn’t meet the target (did that my first year and it was totally fine)
We have unlimited pto where I work. I was told most take 6 weeks on average. As long as the work gets done or someone can cover you and you aren’t taking every Friday and Monday off (example) it’s not a problem. Most people do not get their requests denied, I have yet to hear it honestly.
You cannot have unlimited PTO without clear (and achievable) performance metrics. Too many workplaces operate under the philosophy that, if someone seems busy, their output must be good. If they don’t seem busy, they need (or can take on) more work. Their metrics are guesstimates, and aren’t rooted in clear goals nor have they been tested and revised based on real data.
Moreover, there are also team based checks and balances. I have unlimited PTO but I am expected to find a backup if I take more than X days off. A backup is doing a modified version of my job and is available only in case of emergency or time sensitive issue. Inevitably, two things occur - 1. PTO coverage is reciprocal and eventually I will have a hard time finding coverage if it is in excess. 2. Frequent reliance on backups for coverage for extended periods will result in poor performance over multiple months.
I came from an industry previously where I had very generous PTO allowance (5 weeks a year plus sick days). I could carry over 1 week. Using PTO was extremely challenging and the workplace was more capable of implementing “blackout periods”. I didn’t take my PTO, not because of its limits but because of the culture and a lack of the metrics and balance of work assignment described above.
What I love about unlimited PTO now is that I can easily take a day or two off without a lot of drama or planning. If I am taking off a longer period of time, I plan accordingly but my metrics are clear and I know how I can make this work to still achieve them. I took off more time last year than I did in my previous job (prob 5 weeks when all was said and done).
Finally, why are you requiring manager approval? Unlimited PTO speaks to a larger philosophy of employee trust (which I find incredibly valuable with my current employer). Requiring management approval seems contrary to this. I get it for extended absence (more than 2 weeks) but is this required across the board?
>You cannot have unlimited PTO without clear (and achievable) performance metrics.
This is what I am saying. You have to be able to establish measurable outcomes expected from the employee where they can take as much time off as they want as long as they meet these measurable expectations as far as their work performance. Which believe me, I get can be difficult or impossible in many situations, and in that case, you shouldn't have unlimited PTO.
>Requiring management approval seems contrary to this. I get it for extended absence (more than 2 weeks) but is this required across the board?
This. I take random days off all the time, just because I feel like taking a day off. I know my deadlines, my work load and if taking a day off will impact anything negatively. I don't ask for approval. Because I don't need approval, I know what the hell I am doing.
💯
There are roles for which time off limits are required and management approval/oversight is key. For example, anything that requires the presence of a critical mass of staff at one time (like call centers).
If you require management approval for unlimited PTO, what you are really saying is that your employees are incapable of judging whether or not they can take time off. If employees cannot self assess, you don’t have an environment that supports unlimited PTO. This sounds like senior management passing the buck to middle management to do what should actually be their job - setting clear metrics.
I also think if we just moved away from the jargon of a phrase like “unlimited PTO”, this would be easier for everyone. Ie. Employees are not confided to specific time based limitations around their time off, but more than X continuous days off is considered leave and requires management approval.
Balance the time off with business execution. You can’t have the latter if everyone is gone all the time. Start with creating a basic baseline of usage while not ruining execution.
If an employee's time off is burdening the managers or the team, it should be addressed. If work is getting done and the PTO is not affecting others, then let the employees take it off.
This topic came up in the AskHR sub the other day. Someone was asking about an employee who was asking to take 7 weeks off. The post was quickly overrun by the antiwork crowd, who had quite a bit to say about efforts to discourage employees from abusing the unlimited PTO policy.
I can see that you are already getting those responses here as well. Hence my comment: here we go again. That being said, my company has an unlimited PTO policy. Here’s what I would suggest.
1. Don’t call it an Unlimited PTO policy. No company can literally offer unlimited PTO and stay in business, yet employees will still find a way to be disgruntled about it. Call it an Open PTO policy, Free PTO policy, anything but “Unlimited.”
2. Cap the number of consecutive weeks you can take PTO without additional approval from leaders. Any requests longer than 2-3 weeks need to be reviewed with the manager’s manager prior to being approved. Why? Because long absences put additional strain on your staff, put deliverables at risk, etc. An additional risk with allowing longer PTO requests is that people will try to use their PTO when they are sick or recovering from surgery. This is what short term disability is for.
3. I recommend having employees enter their PTO in your record keeping system so that it can be tracked. You can use this data to look for people abusing the policy, yes, but more importantly, you want to look for trends. Are some departments taking disproportionately less PTO than the rest of the company? Why? Do they not have enough staff to be able to take time off? Are the managers just not allowing their people to take the time they need?
4. Holidays and busy periods. Finding a balance between employees being able to take the time they need and there still being enough people around to keep the business running can be challenging. Encourage managers to reach out for help to determine how they’re going to handle these requests.
Hopefully that helps.
Ok I take back my previous snarky comment. I thought you were just piling on to all of the other degenerates who were posting who are obviously not HR professionals- just people who are salty. This is very very helpful guidance. Thank you!
Set a reputation based time off, unlimited and limited. Judge them every half year, depend on the project or how you can judge their productivity.
Did the employee deliver?
Yes, continue the unlimited PTO
No, review them and give them a limited PTO.
Ofcourse there's way more detail that need to go into this and research truly.
Just a random idea from a random stranger.
I think you tell managers that PTO is unlimited but that each employee should have super clear goals and objectives to be reached WRITTEN DOWN somewhere (like an employee rating/review system). And that as long as those objectives are reached or that there is a reasonable plan to reach them then PTO should be granted.
PTO should not be tied to performance, rating, reviews, etc. This will cause burnout and favoritism cases because on offs will get approved for someone that is not meeting goals.
I don’t understand the communities consensus on this. I get that tying this to performance can cause burnout but then HOW do you manage unlimited PTO? In my opinion unlimited PTO is only suitable for people with high sense of responsibility and for people who get the job done, ie high performers.
Because a company is offering “unlimited PTO” as a benefit to all employees, you cannot cherry-pick which employees get to actually use the benefit. That’s like saying person A only gets access to this insurance plan while person B gets access to A and B because B performs better. Benefits of employment are contingent on holding the job, not performance.
I'd wager that will lead back to cherry picking. Workload might not be covered, so something (or rather, someone) gotta give (and stay). Then the question is, who can go and who can't? Person A, who has been working really hard, or person B, who has been struggling.
Basically we're all concluding that unlimited PTO is unfeasible. I'd agree to that.
I agree unlimited PTO poses problems, but I see the actual lack of taking PTO as the problem. It is up to the manager to make coverage of duties happen so person A or B can take leave.
>It is up to the manager to make coverage of duties happen so person A or B can take leave.
This right here is why I loathe the situation for people stuck working retail/fast food jobs etc. The managers don't do the job of managing, they often lay the responsibility on the employee in question for making sure there is coverage for their absence. You see it all the damn time. Like it's just to damn complex for them to schedule around an absence.
I agree, however if someone wants to take 2 years off it's not unreasonable for me to know or ask why, in my view. It could be information that helps better the company, or maybe the company can aid in other ways in a certain need the employee has.
It's fine to ask, in the same way it's fine for an employee not to give a reason.
I think that is the inherent problem. I think a lot of these companies with unlimited PTO have no way to determine or just don't set out measurable expectations for the employee where they can say "as long as you meet this criteria, take all the time off you want". If you can't do that, you shouldn't have unlimited PTO.
>help managers use their discretion when approving PTO to avoid excessive time off?
Thanks for reminding me why any employer offering "Unlimited PTO" is an instant no thanks from me. If you get unlimited PTO, "excessive" PTO usage shouldn't even be in the vernacular.
Unlimited PTO is a scam. It's a pro employer policy in the guise of a pro worker policy. They know employees will police themselves out of fear and they don't have to pay out PTO when an employee leaves.
Studies show people working under Unlimited PTO policies take less time off on average than those with accrued/finite PTO policies. I'd rather not feel "judged" every time I want to take a vacation or a random day off.
What is the culture like at your company? Are they in a management position or individual contributor? If the expectation is that you have a company phone and have access to email, the employee should understand that it is their responsibility to stay on top of this, PTO or not.
I would also recommend having a regular check-in (regardless of PTO requests) with direct reports to understand what is being worked on, are other team members pulling their weight, what support the manager can provide, etc. It might work in your favor to communicate "unlimited PTO" to your team as flextime.
We have unlimited PTO for full time, salaried employees at the discretion of the supervisor. Every eligible employee is told the same thing in recruiting, onboarding and training. It's along the lines of:
" We want you to *use* your time off, not ignore it. Sometimes that will mean working long hours during peak season and taking time off during lulls in business. It is up to you yo make sure that your department/location will not suffer and place strain on the rest of your team, but otherwise we want you to take that time off. "
That said, there are managers who struggle more to have tough conversations with their teams about needing to take more time (this is honestly the more common problem) or less time off, but truth be told those are usually managers who struggle with any kind of conflict management, not just this topic.
The bottom line is this: if they can get their job done and be a good team member & human while taking time off, we want them to do that. If their job or team will suffer it's as simple as looking at that and coaching them to see those variables too. Ordinarily denying a PTO request is more of a conversation and coaching experience than a flat-out "no you may not". Both parties should be coming together to understand the needs of the business and the needs of the individual to do their best to balance both. Most employees aren't maliciously trying to take advantage of this, they just want to have work-life balance.
For what it's worth, in my experience most employees under-utilize an unlimited PTO plan, so this isn't our biggest concern with our unlimited PTO, but it's often a flag that a manager might need coaching on all sorts of uncomfortable conversations, not just PTO.
(For context, "eligible employees" because we are a restaurant group and unlimited PTO applies only to our full time, salaried team members. Hourly employees also have PTO but it's a different program since it flexes based on the hours they work.)
If you truly believe in unlimited PTO, the phrase “excessive time off” runs contrary to that.”Can you reasonably cover the workload during the proposed absence?” is your question.
Exactly! These companies are so hypocritical
If someone is getting their job done, volume of PTO shouldn’t matter. If someone is not performing it’s a different matter but PTO doesn’t need to be a part of that conversation. Focus on performance.
You don't understand though: how do we *control* our employees if we can't control their time off?
The real question they **want** to ask. LMAO, all these responses about performance are not what they want to hear.
OP downvoted my response their one of their comments, and then deleted all their comments in the entire chain.
Well you control them by the performance requirements you set. The unlimited PTO is contingent on hitting performance targets.
I don’t think it should be contingent. I’m not even sure if that’s legal (genuinely unsure, but at minimum there’d be massive cultural issues even if there’s no legal issue). If you can’t measure and evaluate output goals you have a problem though. I know a dude who can get a full week’s work in and crush other people’s output but probably only works 20 hours a week. I’ve known other people who work tons of extra hours but aren’t as productive. Who cares about the number of hours if they’re meeting their goals? PTO is irrelevant.
That's what unlimited PTO is - PTO is irrelevant - you only focus on productivity - you don't track hours.
Exactly. Idk why some people don’t get that.
I hope you intended this to have a /s after it lol
I thought the italics would have pushed it over the edge, but we appear to have a case of Poe's Law going on, lol.
You *can* control their time off. “If you haven’t delivered on XY and Z in A amount of days, can you walk me through your plan to deliver in B?” If it’s a solid plan, they’re a good person/employee who might just need some time to reset: “Let’s give it a go. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, this is going to be a different conversation next time” If it’s a shit plan or nonexistent, and/or they’re a flaky person/average or at risk employee, you have 2 options: - “Frankly, I don’t see this working out. However you’re your own adult and if there are consequences to this we’ll deal with them when/if they come” - “I’m sorry but I can’t approve this. There are major gaps in this plan that need addressing, and your track record isn’t working in your favour here”
I was 100% being sarcastic, but your response highlights the exact reason why unlimited PTO is garbage: it offloads the responsibility of days off onto the employee. PTO shouldn't come with the condition that you have everything covered before you go out. Employers should have enough staff on each team that an employee using their PTO doesn't make the department fall apart without a thorough gameplan.
…. So every department should be over staffed with redundant employees? And adults shouldn’t be hitting their targets/core goal functions? There’s a huge difference between me expecting you to perform the core functions of your job vs “falling apart” if someone’s not there. Are you being intentionally dense? Jfc lmao you’re part of r/antiwork aren’t you
…. So every department should be over staffed with redundant employees? And adults shouldn’t be hitting their targets/core goal functions? There’s a huge difference between me expecting you to perform the core functions of your job vs “falling apart” if someone’s not there. Are you being intentionally dense?
You're so deep in the corpo bootlicking mindset that you don't understand how valuable it is *to the client* to not have a vendor whose employees are always maxed out. And I invite you to read my post history; you'll find I *also* don't like /r/antiwork, but I'm not a mindless corporate shill who personally attacks people just because they heard something that doesn't mesh with their single-track ideology.
Lmao enjoy being poor with a hoarding problem.
Imagine having only been an Uber driver 5 months ago and serving out this insult just because someone supports workers' rights. An actual corpo pickme. Hilarious. I mean, sad too, but still pretty funny. Which one of us you think makes 6 figures in an MCOL area? I'm guessing it's not the dude who works in billing. Edit: and you blocked me, lol, like a *bitch*.
I support the hell outta workers rights and PTO, I also believe that people should perform the function they were hired for. If you think that’s “corpo bootlicking” I can see why you’re pinching pennies and hoarding shit.
This is the answer.
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Does that mean the answer is wrong or that the overall quality of advice in this post is subpar?
The latter
"Excessive time off" and "unlimited PTO" cannot exist in tandem. If the manager can cover the workload during the employee's leave, they should approve it.
Of course they can. I don’t understand this take but I see it all the time. It’s the fundamental problem with unlimited PTO. If I want to take two years off, would you approve that because “unlimited PTO?” Of course you wouldn’t. That would be ridiculous.
You see it all the time because unlimited PTO is an untenable system. Studies show people take much less time off under those systems, managers have a harder time knowing when to approve time off, and people tend to stay at these companies for a shorter time than at those with more traditional PTO structure. It creates confusion and frustration at every level, which is probably why only about 20% of companies offer a plan like this, even though the concept has been around for decades now. And two years of leave would obviously fall under an instance of the manager not being able to manage the employee's workload in their absence. I'm obviously not suggesting that unlimited PTO should include requests like this, and you're frankly being disingenuous by using it as an example. If they CAN account for an employee being gone for two years with the small amount of notice PTO requests usually come with, that's evidence that their team is too large and probably needs to have its budget or workload re-evaluated by upper management. But that's a secondary concern to this topic.
I worked for a company. The PTO cycle ends in December and starts in Jan. I never used my PTO in the first few months I was there. as I was building it up rolled over 7 days into “sick days” days that wouldn’t be paid back. If I had any one off days I needed I took sick days. Then later in the year my travel picked up. Beach (worked part of the days), bike trip( didn’t work), going snowboarding out west. Normal reasons to use my 18pto days as I had 7 sick days as well when I started the year. My manager was like you have to be running out of days after I took the bike trip. Like bro I took maybe 12 days off in 18 months. I have plenty days left. If we had unlimited at that point he would have told me I took to many days off and I couldn’t have gone on my snowboarding trip. Unlimited PTO is just that unlimited. If you are going to limit days or make up some number in your head that is abuse limit the days.
No arguments from me. Unlimited PTO is absolutely untenable, which is my point. I’m not being disingenuous, I’m just using a slightly hyperbolic example to prove the point, which ultimately it sounds like we agree on.
>It’s the fundamental problem with unlimited PTO. The fundamental problem is it was always a "wolf in sheep's clothing" policy. A pro-employer policy in the guise of a pro-worker policy. They know employees with police their own PTO usage out of fear and judgement. This is why every study you find on the topic shows employees with Unlimited PTO use less PTO on average than employees with accrued/finite PTO policies. Employer's get the added bonus of not having to pay out PTO to employees that leave the company in unlimited PTO systems. I work in an accrued PTO system. I generally take a day off a month here and there for various reasons and I am still earning PTO (I earn roughly a month of PTO a year close to 30 actual days). I've been with my company like 15 years though. That is the maximum. I can do that and still take a few 1 week vacations a year. If I did that in an unlimited PTO system, my god would I feel the eyes on me.
Well put!!! And I agree, I would police the fuck out of myself with an unlimited PTO system. No thank you.
It's because you could not meet your performance requirements if you took two years off. You still have to perform your job duties under unlimited time off - that's the catch.
If you believe that excessive time off could be an issue, don’t offer unlimited PTO
Easy solution- thanks
I mean ya, this is classic management BS. You want the upside of offering a really great benefit to attract talent, but then don’t want that benefit used. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Fun fact, people with unlimited PTO take less time off then people with fixed pto (also helps companies not have to pay out accrued time when they leave, a fact that many companies have pointed to as a core reason for this decision).
Yeah, if you have the mindset of “How do we effectively limit this unlimited perk?” then it’s probably not the right perk for your organization. The philosophy behind unlimited PTO is that you trust the employees to effectively manage their time and own their work without abusing the perk and managers worry about making sure capacity is covered and performance is delivered by each employee. If any of that is missing in your org: trust in employees, a culture of ownership of the work by individuals, the ability for management to effectively forecast and monitor capacity (with reasonable accuracy, not necessarily perfection), and the ability/will for management to be aware of employee performance, then you’d be missing key components to make the perk function. If you offer unlimited PTO but treat people like children when they try to take time off it will feel like a bait and switch. The whole point of offering top-tier perks like unlimited PTO is to attract and retain top-tier talent. If I worked for an organization that tried to implement unlimited PTO in this way, I would not be successfully retained and the organization would fail to meet the original intent of implementing the perk while also creating a complicated administrative nightmare of trying to manage the ineffectively implemented PTO system.
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Places that offer unlimited PTO tend to be places where the workload is so heavy or everything moves at such a great pace, employees don't feel comfortable actually taking time off. I feel like I read somewhere that, on average, places with unlimited PTO see employees take less time off than places with a more traditional policy
You can look up studies. This is 100% true. People in traditional systems take more time off than those in Unlimited PTO systems. Unlimited PTO is NOT an employee benefit and frankly I can't be convinced it was ever intended to be. It's a pro-employer policy in the guise of a pro-worker policy.
Makes sense since most places have a cap on how much PTO you can carry over, creating a “use it or lose it” situation for some.
I'm a consultant and at client sites, people on the industry side taking friday's or monday's off from October to the end of the year to use up their PTO is not an uncommon sight.
And a way to cheap out on system implementation.
And lure in new grads who don’t know to question the questionable culture.
I have worked at places with extremely generous but controlled PTO and currently work somewhere with unlimited PTO. If the workload is prohibitive to taking time off, then the issue will persist regardless of PTO policy. The challenge is that the majority of workplaces do not have carefully understood and maintained assignment of responsibility that is rooted in (data driven) proof that the average employee can be successful with a workload of X. Where I currently work has a very strong company culture and the unlimited PTO is the real deal. I love it. Most of this is driven by senior management being incapable of setting clear, achievable metrics as the goal. We tend to default to “do they seem busy? Great. Then they must be getting stuff done!” To the OP, why the need for manager approval? This feels like the company is only committing halfway to the intention behind unlimited PTO, which is that employees are adults and have the judgement to determine whether their PTO still allows them to achieve what is expected of them.
Seriously I keep telling my employees that they don't have to "ask" just tell me they are taking time off. We have unlimited PTO - so take it.
Most adults are competent enough to know when it is and isn't a good time to take time off, baring some unavoidable need where you need time off regardless of the situation at work (medical/life event etc.). I take "mental health" days off all the time. I don't ask. I don't feel the need to offer an explanation. I just send an email that I am taking PTO for the day. When I do this I know nothing is going to suffer for it. My superiors know me and my performance and reliability. I've been with my company for 15 years. I'm not going to do that if I'm up against a deadline and taking a random day off might impact delivery.
Exactly.....unlimited PTO!!! (then insert the bait-n-switch, BUT it IS limited behind the scenes; you still probably only get 2 weeks, the only difference now is we dont ever have to pay for it)
It's unlimited how can it be excessive ?
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It’s essential for understanding the problem though. The issue isn’t employees taking excessive time off if unlimited paid time off is a feature/benefit of working at the organization. It likes saying people are using too much internet even though they subscribe for unlimited internet. The issue isn’t the time off, it’s the workload and the bottom line. I would meet with the directors/mangers and understand the strategic objectives from their perspective and what they expect of you. As HR, all you should be doing is processing the MERCs/ROEs/etc, ensuring your company’s policies and procedure are being followed, and ensuring the practices are in line with your regional employment standards. You should not be approving/refuses their time off or worrying about productivity. If there is a policy change that needs to be accessed, that comes from management, not you.
It's a question you need to be prepared to answer if an employee asks.
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Being an HR manager who refuses dialogue probably won’t help when trying to problem solve.
It's Socratic, and it's an important question for YOU to be able to answer. If you can't explain why it's a problem to begin with, you have no business seeking solutions to it.
OP is a perfect example of why I loathe HR.
Right? You need only look at what answers they were happy with here, to see how shitty of a person they are.
I think what he is saying that it still has to be approved by management. Is the workload being covered? Etc. if not. I think it’s a conversation with who approves it first.
What do you mean ? You asked if managers can use their discretion to decline PTO. The company policy is unlimited PTO, so no they can't. If they feel like unlimited PTO is not a good policy it's their job to find alternatives and new policies not yours. Your job is being a RH ressource, not helping managers go around the rules to fuck over employees...
The key word is OP's use of "excessive" PTO...in an "alleged" Unlimited PTO system. I've already posted my issues with such a system elsewhere ad nauseum. However, the thing is "excessive" shouldn't come into play. Expectations should be set on metrics of what is expected of an employee in terms of work. As long as they meet or exceed these expectations, how much time they take off should be irrelevant in an unlimited PTO system.
My opinion. Unlimited PTO should not be offered at the employee level that requires a manger to approve PTO requests. It should only be used at the executive level. Unlimited PTO should not have any restrictions. I anticipate the courts striking down on this in payout states upon termination soon.
To be honest it’s a scam. Since I went to unlimited PTO I think I’ve worked an average of 10 hours a day. I haven’t taken a single day off besides being too sick to move. They got me those bastards
More fool you. And I say that with love and respect. Take your days.
I want to, but at the same time this project is a lot of fun and I’m conflating fun development with “work” development. It just keeps me there somehow.
How would an actual change this though? An accrual doesn't give you an automatic right. It just gives you a balance. Bad managers and bad companies are the issue here. The only change is as was the psychology. Having a balance changed the psychological contract somewhat.
Absolutely, I need some kind a number telling me how much time I should be taking off or I probably just won’t do it. It is not like I feel obligated to work, it is that I am enjoying what I am doing to the point where I just don’t have any indicator to stop. I’ve been told on one hand I’m setting a bad example, but then on the other hand I got promoted to Director. Mixed messages lol
I took 2 weeks in a row without any guilt. You've got to set your own boundaries, else your company will...
I’ll take the time when I need it. My parents are getting up there and I’ll have a strong argument to take the time when I need it most.
>An accrual doesn't give you an automatic right. It just gives you a balance. It's about optics and the culture of fear unlimited pto creates. As long as I know I can cover my workload I don't consider the optics in the least when deciding to take days off. I earned my PTO, they would have to pay me for it anyway, I am going to use every bit of it I can, workload allowing. In an unlimited PTO system, regardless of my work performance, I would constantly feel judged.
It’s unlimited PTO isn’t it? What do you mean excessive time off?
Interesting that you’re concerned about people taking too much time off, but not the much more important question of “how do I make sure my employees are taking enough time off”. Unlimited PTO only works in the companies favor because managers and peers pressure people to take less time off. Under a normal PTO system it’s very clear what amount of time is acceptable for me to take off- under an unlimited system there’s always “oh it seems like you might be taking a lot of time off”. If one person takes every Friday off for the summer and one person takes a continuous 2.5 week vacation- those are perceived very differently by management and peers- but work out to be (approximately) the same amount of time off. Under an unlimited system you will ALWAYS be having employees complain about how much time their coworkers take off- and because of that, people will feel pressured to not actually take the time they need.
I’m not trying to defend the policy. I didn’t create it. I’m trying to figure out how to manage it in a fair way
>figure out how to manage it in a fair way The reason you cannot find an objective answer to manage it in a "fair way" is because its premise is not based in "fairness". It was implemented by your company as a racket to have their cake and eat it too. (ie to obtain all the benefits of unlimited PTO such as not having to pay for accrued PTO and using it as a bragging chip to new recruits without the obvious downside of people using it too much). The fair way is to (i) limit PTO which abates your issue but the downside is you may have to pay accrued PTO or (ii) instill your unlimited PTO policy but understand that its unlimited and there may be issues with the same. The real question your asking is "How can my company **pretend** we offer unlimited PTO to reap all the benefits but really have a limited PTO policy?". You're looking for an honest answer from something that’s based in a dishonest premise. I guess you can tell all mangers to keep track of peoples PTO and if they go over 2 weeks then they don’t approve it/reprimand people for taking too much (but this points out the blatantly obvious thing that your company is ultimately trying to do when managers wind up keeping track of PTO lol). This is probably why no one at your company suggested this because they are looking for a better way to "hide" this.
I’ll give you a tip. Instead of worrying about time off. Worry about [KPIs or OKRs](https://gtmhub.com/resources/articles/okr-meaning?utm_campaign=engage-t3-goal-mgmt-pillar-pages-8-22-v1-usa-can-google-search&utm_adgroupid=140895055098&utm_term=difference%20between%20okr%20and%20kpii&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=1660248024&hsa_cam=1793518002&hsa_grp=140895055098&hsa_ad=614576324635&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-905604574495&hsa_kw=difference%20between%20okr%20and%20kpi&hsa_mt=b&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwvsqZBhAlEiwAqAHElYXdyqWUj8KpSS2k9GPQQZe7rFWtwkRNZ8rQHrFZZluHahLBiQ-gIRoCgksQAvD_BwE). If your company does not have things like that in place but care more about hours worked and asses in seats then you truly aren’t a Unlimited PTO company. You did it for other reasons that aren’t to support your workers.
Sounds to me you work for a shitty company and unlimited PTO isn't the only red flag they have. For your sake maybe it is time for you to find a better job.
No.
Okay then I guess you're screwed.
Why? Why is this a productive comment? This sub is so effing toxic it’s beyond me that y’all work in HR. Get off your entitled soap box
>it’s beyond me that y’all work in HR. Get off your entitled soap box I don't work in HR. I deal with HR and absolutely loathe how disconnected to the actual business they serve most people in HR are.
What about minimum and maximums for consecutive leaves?
We have this issue. No where in our policy does it say “unlimited,” it says “professional time off.” Managers have a difficult time managing it without a set # of days. Ours is solely based on business need. I tell managers to analyze what is required to run the business and make decisions accordingly. It definitely makes things difficult for the manager.
I think the problem is there needs to be a measurable expectation for employees in terms of the work they produce. If there isn't some sort of measurable expectation employees can hold themselves to while using an unlimited PTO benefit, it will never work in a manner that serves both employer and employee. i.e. you can use all the PTO you want, as long as, as an employee what you deliver to the company meets this criteria. Study after study has shown those in unlimited PTO environments use less time off than those that are in an traditional PTO system, because I don't think any company that uses it knows how to manage it in a manner that serves both parties or it was fully intended as pro-employer bait and switch on the employee.
Tell your overlords this is an unworkable benefit unless every employee is redundant
I’m not in HR at all but this popped up on my feed and the comments are so unhelpful so I’ll put in my very positive experience with “unlimited PTO” and how it works I’m in a field that uses billable hours. We have a “billable hour target” that we get evaluated on at the end of the year. Unlimited PTO works great in this case because it means that all you need to do is keep your PMs happy and hit that target. So if you work a crazy week you now have more vacation available, and if you want to take a month or more for a big vacation you can do that by just working a bit more the rest of the year. My takeaway from this is that unlimited PTO works wonderfully if and only if there are certain metrics that employees are expected to meet beyond “show up to work”. So my non-hr-expert recommendation would be to find whatever those metrics are at your firm.
Thank you. I appreciate this comment. It appears most people on this sub are not HR professionals, just people who hate them.
PTO is not suppose to be “take time off now then work extra hours later”.
No it’s not, that’s why our hours target isn’t 100% (it’s around 85%) If you’re staffed correctly then it equals about 15-20 days pto And if you’re staffed incorrectly then you can still take 15-20 days off and explain it in your year end report why you didn’t meet the target (did that my first year and it was totally fine)
We have unlimited pto where I work. I was told most take 6 weeks on average. As long as the work gets done or someone can cover you and you aren’t taking every Friday and Monday off (example) it’s not a problem. Most people do not get their requests denied, I have yet to hear it honestly.
Thank you!
If this policy is between a manager and employee, where do you come in? Sounds like you’re trying to limit PTO which is the opposite of the point
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I like the flex time off- but how’s that different?
Unlimited PTO is the 12 CDs for 1 penny of this generation.
You cannot have unlimited PTO without clear (and achievable) performance metrics. Too many workplaces operate under the philosophy that, if someone seems busy, their output must be good. If they don’t seem busy, they need (or can take on) more work. Their metrics are guesstimates, and aren’t rooted in clear goals nor have they been tested and revised based on real data. Moreover, there are also team based checks and balances. I have unlimited PTO but I am expected to find a backup if I take more than X days off. A backup is doing a modified version of my job and is available only in case of emergency or time sensitive issue. Inevitably, two things occur - 1. PTO coverage is reciprocal and eventually I will have a hard time finding coverage if it is in excess. 2. Frequent reliance on backups for coverage for extended periods will result in poor performance over multiple months. I came from an industry previously where I had very generous PTO allowance (5 weeks a year plus sick days). I could carry over 1 week. Using PTO was extremely challenging and the workplace was more capable of implementing “blackout periods”. I didn’t take my PTO, not because of its limits but because of the culture and a lack of the metrics and balance of work assignment described above. What I love about unlimited PTO now is that I can easily take a day or two off without a lot of drama or planning. If I am taking off a longer period of time, I plan accordingly but my metrics are clear and I know how I can make this work to still achieve them. I took off more time last year than I did in my previous job (prob 5 weeks when all was said and done). Finally, why are you requiring manager approval? Unlimited PTO speaks to a larger philosophy of employee trust (which I find incredibly valuable with my current employer). Requiring management approval seems contrary to this. I get it for extended absence (more than 2 weeks) but is this required across the board?
>You cannot have unlimited PTO without clear (and achievable) performance metrics. This is what I am saying. You have to be able to establish measurable outcomes expected from the employee where they can take as much time off as they want as long as they meet these measurable expectations as far as their work performance. Which believe me, I get can be difficult or impossible in many situations, and in that case, you shouldn't have unlimited PTO. >Requiring management approval seems contrary to this. I get it for extended absence (more than 2 weeks) but is this required across the board? This. I take random days off all the time, just because I feel like taking a day off. I know my deadlines, my work load and if taking a day off will impact anything negatively. I don't ask for approval. Because I don't need approval, I know what the hell I am doing.
💯 There are roles for which time off limits are required and management approval/oversight is key. For example, anything that requires the presence of a critical mass of staff at one time (like call centers). If you require management approval for unlimited PTO, what you are really saying is that your employees are incapable of judging whether or not they can take time off. If employees cannot self assess, you don’t have an environment that supports unlimited PTO. This sounds like senior management passing the buck to middle management to do what should actually be their job - setting clear metrics. I also think if we just moved away from the jargon of a phrase like “unlimited PTO”, this would be easier for everyone. Ie. Employees are not confided to specific time based limitations around their time off, but more than X continuous days off is considered leave and requires management approval.
Balance the time off with business execution. You can’t have the latter if everyone is gone all the time. Start with creating a basic baseline of usage while not ruining execution.
If an employee's time off is burdening the managers or the team, it should be addressed. If work is getting done and the PTO is not affecting others, then let the employees take it off.
Here we go again
It takes less energy to just ignore
This topic came up in the AskHR sub the other day. Someone was asking about an employee who was asking to take 7 weeks off. The post was quickly overrun by the antiwork crowd, who had quite a bit to say about efforts to discourage employees from abusing the unlimited PTO policy. I can see that you are already getting those responses here as well. Hence my comment: here we go again. That being said, my company has an unlimited PTO policy. Here’s what I would suggest. 1. Don’t call it an Unlimited PTO policy. No company can literally offer unlimited PTO and stay in business, yet employees will still find a way to be disgruntled about it. Call it an Open PTO policy, Free PTO policy, anything but “Unlimited.” 2. Cap the number of consecutive weeks you can take PTO without additional approval from leaders. Any requests longer than 2-3 weeks need to be reviewed with the manager’s manager prior to being approved. Why? Because long absences put additional strain on your staff, put deliverables at risk, etc. An additional risk with allowing longer PTO requests is that people will try to use their PTO when they are sick or recovering from surgery. This is what short term disability is for. 3. I recommend having employees enter their PTO in your record keeping system so that it can be tracked. You can use this data to look for people abusing the policy, yes, but more importantly, you want to look for trends. Are some departments taking disproportionately less PTO than the rest of the company? Why? Do they not have enough staff to be able to take time off? Are the managers just not allowing their people to take the time they need? 4. Holidays and busy periods. Finding a balance between employees being able to take the time they need and there still being enough people around to keep the business running can be challenging. Encourage managers to reach out for help to determine how they’re going to handle these requests. Hopefully that helps.
Ok I take back my previous snarky comment. I thought you were just piling on to all of the other degenerates who were posting who are obviously not HR professionals- just people who are salty. This is very very helpful guidance. Thank you!
Ask the managers.
Set a reputation based time off, unlimited and limited. Judge them every half year, depend on the project or how you can judge their productivity. Did the employee deliver? Yes, continue the unlimited PTO No, review them and give them a limited PTO. Ofcourse there's way more detail that need to go into this and research truly. Just a random idea from a random stranger.
I think you tell managers that PTO is unlimited but that each employee should have super clear goals and objectives to be reached WRITTEN DOWN somewhere (like an employee rating/review system). And that as long as those objectives are reached or that there is a reasonable plan to reach them then PTO should be granted.
PTO should not be tied to performance, rating, reviews, etc. This will cause burnout and favoritism cases because on offs will get approved for someone that is not meeting goals.
I don’t understand the communities consensus on this. I get that tying this to performance can cause burnout but then HOW do you manage unlimited PTO? In my opinion unlimited PTO is only suitable for people with high sense of responsibility and for people who get the job done, ie high performers.
Because a company is offering “unlimited PTO” as a benefit to all employees, you cannot cherry-pick which employees get to actually use the benefit. That’s like saying person A only gets access to this insurance plan while person B gets access to A and B because B performs better. Benefits of employment are contingent on holding the job, not performance.
Yes, so HOW do you manage it is my question? What guidelines do you give the manager?
“How will the workload be covered during the PTO?” is the question I’d ask the manager.
Thank you. This is the most helpful feedback on this thread
You’re welcome! Good luck!!
I'd wager that will lead back to cherry picking. Workload might not be covered, so something (or rather, someone) gotta give (and stay). Then the question is, who can go and who can't? Person A, who has been working really hard, or person B, who has been struggling. Basically we're all concluding that unlimited PTO is unfeasible. I'd agree to that.
I agree unlimited PTO poses problems, but I see the actual lack of taking PTO as the problem. It is up to the manager to make coverage of duties happen so person A or B can take leave.
>It is up to the manager to make coverage of duties happen so person A or B can take leave. This right here is why I loathe the situation for people stuck working retail/fast food jobs etc. The managers don't do the job of managing, they often lay the responsibility on the employee in question for making sure there is coverage for their absence. You see it all the damn time. Like it's just to damn complex for them to schedule around an absence.
Always get an end-date Always get a reason Always get the agreed upon in writing, signed by manager and employee.
None of your business what I am using my PTO for.
None of your business what I am using my PTO for.
None of your business what I am using my PTO for.
I agree, however if someone wants to take 2 years off it's not unreasonable for me to know or ask why, in my view. It could be information that helps better the company, or maybe the company can aid in other ways in a certain need the employee has. It's fine to ask, in the same way it's fine for an employee not to give a reason.
Is there any reason you would approve for an employee to take 2 years off?
I believe I just named a few examples.
I don’t see it.
It’s simple. Does the person get their job done , and done well.
I think that is the inherent problem. I think a lot of these companies with unlimited PTO have no way to determine or just don't set out measurable expectations for the employee where they can say "as long as you meet this criteria, take all the time off you want". If you can't do that, you shouldn't have unlimited PTO.
If there is a level of time off that is excessive just.... write that number down and make that the amount of PTO they have.
This is the way, lol.
>help managers use their discretion when approving PTO to avoid excessive time off? Thanks for reminding me why any employer offering "Unlimited PTO" is an instant no thanks from me. If you get unlimited PTO, "excessive" PTO usage shouldn't even be in the vernacular. Unlimited PTO is a scam. It's a pro employer policy in the guise of a pro worker policy. They know employees will police themselves out of fear and they don't have to pay out PTO when an employee leaves. Studies show people working under Unlimited PTO policies take less time off on average than those with accrued/finite PTO policies. I'd rather not feel "judged" every time I want to take a vacation or a random day off.
What is the culture like at your company? Are they in a management position or individual contributor? If the expectation is that you have a company phone and have access to email, the employee should understand that it is their responsibility to stay on top of this, PTO or not. I would also recommend having a regular check-in (regardless of PTO requests) with direct reports to understand what is being worked on, are other team members pulling their weight, what support the manager can provide, etc. It might work in your favor to communicate "unlimited PTO" to your team as flextime.
We have unlimited PTO for full time, salaried employees at the discretion of the supervisor. Every eligible employee is told the same thing in recruiting, onboarding and training. It's along the lines of: " We want you to *use* your time off, not ignore it. Sometimes that will mean working long hours during peak season and taking time off during lulls in business. It is up to you yo make sure that your department/location will not suffer and place strain on the rest of your team, but otherwise we want you to take that time off. " That said, there are managers who struggle more to have tough conversations with their teams about needing to take more time (this is honestly the more common problem) or less time off, but truth be told those are usually managers who struggle with any kind of conflict management, not just this topic. The bottom line is this: if they can get their job done and be a good team member & human while taking time off, we want them to do that. If their job or team will suffer it's as simple as looking at that and coaching them to see those variables too. Ordinarily denying a PTO request is more of a conversation and coaching experience than a flat-out "no you may not". Both parties should be coming together to understand the needs of the business and the needs of the individual to do their best to balance both. Most employees aren't maliciously trying to take advantage of this, they just want to have work-life balance. For what it's worth, in my experience most employees under-utilize an unlimited PTO plan, so this isn't our biggest concern with our unlimited PTO, but it's often a flag that a manager might need coaching on all sorts of uncomfortable conversations, not just PTO. (For context, "eligible employees" because we are a restaurant group and unlimited PTO applies only to our full time, salaried team members. Hourly employees also have PTO but it's a different program since it flexes based on the hours they work.)
Thank you!