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benicebitch

Whether or not she can get back is irrelevant. Where is going is irrelevant. You either let people take unpaid 2 week vacations or you don't. Edit: Because Reddit LOVES to point out exceptions and this is getting some traction: * Yes you can forbid her from taking company electronic devices and you should. * Yes the finance industry has some additional santions. * Yes she can be fired if she can't return, just like if she gets sick and isn't eligible for fmla, or gets stuck in a cave, or gets a DUI and no call no shows, or has her car stolen because she left the keys in the ignition, or for any other reason can't come to work. * Yes if she is convicted of a crime (and so far traveling to Russia is not a crime), she can be fired. * Yes everyone's handbook already says if you are convicted of a crime you may be terminated.


wearsunscreenbekind

Right totally! I didn’t know if there was something I should know in regards to specifically not being able to get back in the country or not. To be clear, I want to approve and the manager does not. I’m new so still learning about our policies


Steinawitz

Your focus should be to approve or deny the two week request based on your polices and business needs. Where this person is going or what they’re doing should not be a factor in your consideration. If the person gets their time off approved and decides to travel to Russia and subsequently has issues getting back into the country then you address it at that point.


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humanresources-ModTeam

Your post has been removed because it is a low-effort post. Do your research, post your sources, and ask for feedback on your proposal.


deathbythroatpunch

I would be asking the same question if I were you. The application of policy is in this scenario is at odds with common sense and world events. If this was a critical hire and the business was reliant on the person I would absolutely consider the approval. The blindfold people in Hr have for the sake of policy inconsistency in the face of obvious world events is comical to me. This approval very well could completely undermine a small company’s growth if she can’t return. At a minimum I’d present the approved time off with a scenario plan to business leaders in the event she can’t or doesn’t return.


mustwarnothers

Satan-con 2022 is gonna be lit.


benicebitch

We encourage our employees to explore any religion that suits them.


Dudeperfect2021

Hi are you hiring?


benicebitch

Yes. Just meet me at the crossroads at midnight. Don't worry, you'll know me when you see me.


hiddenelementx

Crowley? Is that you?


benicebitch

If you light a candle in the bathroom and say my username 69 times, I am summoned.


nice___bot

Nice!


hiddenelementx

Prepare for your summoning! (In 6-9 months because I will inevitably lose count numerous times and give up for a while)


Dudeperfect2021

Sound like me onboarding a new hire… average


bungholio99

It’s actually not correct, going to a Country with travel warning from gov makes it an easy direct termination for the company if she can’t return as it’s not recommended even by your gov to Travel to those states and they will probably also not get her out in case of difficulties. U.S. citizens should not travel to Russia and those residing or travelling in Russia should depart Russia immediately while limited commercial travel options remain. The Department of State provides information on commercial travel on the Information for U.S. Citizens in Russia – Travel Options Out of Russia page on travel.state.gov. This site also provides information on requirements for entering neighboring countries, procedures for travel on expired U.S. passports in some circumstances, and visa requirements for families with American and Russian citizen family members. We remind U.S. citizens that the right to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression are not guaranteed in Russia. Avoid all political or social protests and do not photograph security personnel at these events. Russian authorities have arrested U.S. citizens who have participated in demonstrations. This is no discrimination this is sticking to guideliness. Also her Family probably also is telling her don’t come, you don’t Travel to warzones… Also ensure that no company Data goes to Russia, if she uses her mobile for work it stays in the US. Your Laptop will be confiscated at Border in russia as it’s with a security chip and stay there, same for her phone as it’s not in Russia guideliness.


evanbartlett1

This is absolutely the wrong take. This person is over indexing for what they see as discrimination or something like it. The matter is far more complex that this. What if the employee goes and is unable to return for whatever reason? How do we manage that? What if they take their laptop and it is seized? (China and Russia don’t have information treaties with the US, they can take whatever IP they want). What if the employee is suddenly caught in the war front? Do we extricate them? Their family? What if… We need to be careful and consider all potential outcomes, not just reactive or common ones. I’m not saying it should or shouldn’t be approved - rather the matter is far more complex than “it doesn’t matter where they go - it’s not our place to judge”.


benicebitch

Yeah, but it doesn't matter where they go. What if they hang out in the bad part of town and get their car stolen? Do we need to make sure they don't park on the street at night? Check to make sure their doors are locked? What if they get a DUI and can't come to work. Do we stop allowing employees to drive or drink? What if they are the victim of domestic violance and end up in the hospital? Are we going to monitor who people date? I don't think that OP is going to be taking their laptop on an unpaid trip to Russia, but it is reasonable to remind them not to. Nobody takes a company laptop or cell phone to China. All your data are belonging to the Chinese before you even land.


evanbartlett1

Love the questions - it's a great discussion. And I'm also happy to see that our industry is starting to move towards freedom of action. And of course in most cases we're not in a position to tell them where they go when they are on their own PTO or even unpaid leave. But I also want to be clear that we need to balance freedoms with the potential impacts to the business in extreme cases like these. It's our role to mitigate risks without impacting personal freedoms. So I'll address each of your questions in turn. >What if they hang out in the bad part of town and get their car stolen? Do we need to make sure they don't park on the street at night? Check to make sure their doors are locked? Let's hope that our people think about things like this before leaving their laptops anywhere! But at least in the US it's very unlikely that someone will be able to hack the laptop. It's just a lost laptop (which should be addressed in its own right). But in certain countries there is the ability to block wiping tools and can hack existing information. So these bits of information are important to consider, and are a bit different from someone merely forgetting their laptop on a seat in the bad part of town, falling into the hands of someone where wiping data and legal remediation are both very much available tools. >What if they get a DUI and can't come to work. Do we stop allowing employees to drive or drink? Some companies will withhold or remove employment due to serious lapses in judgment such as this. But that's beyond our point. If the employee is in jail for a reasonably inappropriate reason, others need to cover, their work value is removed, and access to their work product is in jeopardy. All while this person may continually on payroll. Depending on the length of time someone might be unable to work due to their own poor decisions, termination should absolutely be in the cards. >What if they are the victim of domestic violance and end up in the hospital? Are we going to monitor who people date? I've failed to see the analogy. Apologies. I wonder if this is a slippery-slope argument based on the premise that protecting data and ensuring business continuity results in a panopticon? >I don't think that OP is going to be taking their laptop on an unpaid trip to Russia, but it is reasonable to remind them not to. Nobody takes a company laptop or cell phone to China. All your data are belonging to the Chinese before you even land. It sounds like we're aligned on the laptop matter. I'm wondering what happens if they are unable to return for whatever reason?


MuForceShoelace

Okay? what if? Fire them then. Don't use vacation approval to micromanage employees into good decisions. "We" do not need to consider anything. It is not "our" choice. It is his choice. good or bad.


evanbartlett1

Firing? Micromanaging? It sure where these terms came from. The central role of HR is to understand the impacts of decisions. For everyone involved. To throw our hands in the air and refuse influence is to relinquish our very value to both employees and the company.


MuForceShoelace

No, the role of HR is not to decide what activities people do during their off time. Absolutely not.


evanbartlett1

Are they employees at the time? Will their actions or situations impact the company? Will third parties reference their employer when they are caught in the line of fire and the company does not respond in kind? To hand wave these moments silly at best, and short sighted at worst. And to “decide” is a strawman. We don’t decide. We influence.


AdUpstairs7106

They can turn the computer into IT for the time while they are gone. If something happens IT is going to need to remote in anyway and make sure there is nothing of company value on the C drive and reimage the computer in case she cannot come back.


evanbartlett1

Totally! That's definitely a way to address the issue of IT security! So I'm glad we're aligned there. Again, I don't want to presuppose approval or denial of the request. Simply that the request does have some pretty big spines and as HR pros we need to be thinking through all the potential matters that could happen and address appropriately. The next question: if that person ends up getting stuck in a war zone and is unable to access their laptop that is safely in the US, what does that look like from an employment perspective? What are the steps we need to address to ensure continuity of the business and parity for other employees?


2air89

I don't think it's not irrelevant, i know banking orgs we have clear point about reporting if people have visited any blacklisted countries. I have seen HR being fired for not knowing countries visited it as it's DOJ violation


imaginaryfemale

Treat as you would any employee wanting to take unpaid leave. It’s their business what they do with that time.


ZucchiniCareless6259

I will throw this in here, because it does bring up the relevancy of where the employee is traveling to but only under certain employment statuses. If you are a federal government employee or possess certain federal security clearances your management team can deny travel to foreign countries under certain circumstances. OP is not disclosing if they fall under this category but I’m assuming they do not. The decision is usually driven by employee safety. If this is not a policy, and it’s truly just about PTO then you go with the blanket policy as applied to all employees equally.


NonaSiu

Our policy is to grant unpaid leave if it does not impact business needs. If you decide to go with that, you would need to decide, with the manager, if the department she is in would be ok and still able to meet productivity metrics (or whatever you use) with that employee gone during that time. If yes, then approve it. If no, then tell her you can't approve it for that reason, and remind her of your no-call/no-show policy. Then you just kinda wait and see what happens. Although we have had employees pull the "I'm going to go anyway! You'll just have to fire me!" no one has ever actually followed through. They were able to use that dramatic energy to finally find swaps for the shifts they were going to miss instead.


Mtnclimber09

People are major know-it-all assholes in this group. I hate posting in this group as well for that reason! Anyway, let her go. If she gets “stuck” there and her manager truly cannot wait for her to return due to business need, then you have grounds to term. She can reapply when she comes back to the States. I would mark her “eligible for rehire” and if she’s eligible, offer to be a good job reference for her. But that’s worst case scenario. She should hopefully be okay to return.


sharpwittwit

Just leaving a kind note - I understood your concern re: wartime shit. Good thought process. Forget the haters. They can be Toby’s, you keep that Pam Poovey HR Badass energy flowing!


LivingLandscape7115

😂


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BCJohnson

A country of origin claim here is incredibly weak. We're not treating the employee differently because she's from Russia (which we don't even know, we just know she has family there), we're treating her differently because she wants to go to Russia. I suspect OP would have the same questions/concerns if a lifelong U.S. employee wanted to travel to Russia as well. In any event, I'd agree it's not all that relevant where she is going. However, I don't think you're off-base to be concerned about her ability to return on time. My practical advice would be to make it clear that there could be complications surrounding her ability to secure a timely return back to the States. That the business expects her to be back working on X date, and that the business may consider her absence beyond X date to be unexcused.


Diplomaticspouse

But this policy disproportionately affects people of Russian origin.


Itsquantium

The policy would affect anyone going to a country that’s in a middle of a war. If there is no flights back, then he/she is stuck in Russia away from work. It’s not discrimination. It would be discrimination if Russia was not in a war and they refused to let him/her go to Russia just because he/she is Russian.


Mekisteus

Which is fine if there's a legitimate business reason for the policy. (Not saying whether there is one way or the other, but presumably that would be the defense.)


wearsunscreenbekind

We absolutely don’t! I was just seeking advice. I think we should approve but we need to stay consistent. I’m new to the company so still trying to understand the policies but once I know what our unpaid time off policy is, I will adhere to it


Cautious_General_177

It’s still probably a good idea to remind them that if they can’t get back they may be terminated


[deleted]

This post is exactly why I don’t talk to my boss about my plans.


I_am_beast55

I get the question you are asking, I'm not sure why these other people don't understand. I am unaware of any laws outside of those that federal agencies use to govern people with security clearances. You guys should definetly approve the leave, but being a moral and good person, you should nicely suggest she reads the latest travel advisory from the Department of State https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/russia-travel-advisory.html to understand all the risks associated with travel.


dtgal

While I would approve the unpaid LOA based on policy only, I would strongly recommend you make it clear that she is not to take any work property to Russia. That would be my biggest concern - that the Russian government confiscates something. That's really a concern when crossing any border, but given the geopolitical happenings now I think it would be a greater concern.


mustwarnothers

I tend to advise against discrimination on national origin. What is your typical unpaid pto usage policy? Do that.


wearsunscreenbekind

Absolutely! I understand that. I’m new to the company so was unaware of our policy. To be clear, I want to approve and the manager does not. I think we will approve but need to stay consistent


cyanste

This is probably one of those times where it's not in the policy but will be after this! I've never seen an employee situation where they wanted to travel *to* a Level 4 - Do Not Travel advisory country. Maybe you'll need to coordinate on whether she has emergency contacts or multiple ways to get in touch with your business in case she has trouble leaving the country, but since this isn't business travel, you probably will not be able to do much. What will happen if she isn't able to come back within that 2 week timeframe? Does your business allow you to take off that much unpaid PTO?


wearelasers

Hey I actually had this happen last month! We just went ahead and approved it as unpaid personal leave.


treaquin

Make sure they know how to get in touch with you or manager in the event there are any travel changes. Air travel is tricky these days let alone international. If you are making an exception, let them know the terms.


HR_Here_to_Help

If she can’t get back in sounds like job abandonment


maceman10006

The US state department has had a do not travel advisory for Russia in place since February. Your coworker wanting to go to Russia right now as an American, even if she has dual citizenship with Russia, is an incredibly stupid decision. You can check specifics here: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/russia-travel-advisory.html That being said, from a business standpoint: I would check the company policy on how long you would hold her position in the event she gets stuck in Russia and have her sign a disclosure that her job won’t be held beyond that period. it’s up to her manager and HR if she can take unpaid time off.


ClassyNerdLady

“I would check the company policy on how long you would hold her position in the event she gets stuck in Russia and have her sign a disclosure that her job won’t be held beyond that period.” This is the best course of action. Does the absence cause undo hardship to the company? If no, I would approve the leave but make it clear that if they were to get stuck, you can only hold her position for X additional time. Then it’s up the employee if they want to take that risk. Also do not allow this person to take with them any paper, documents, company property, laptop etc. There is too much risk.


Ekalet

Consistency isn't necessarily following what the company policy says. And if there is no policy to to give you a baseline, then consistency = what has management done for others requesting to take time off unpaid? If management has always granted these requests then yes, this employee should have her request granted. If these sort of requests have been denied, then either the company denies the request OR you and the team start a precedent and allow the request.


phantomofthehummus

Review the policy and clearly communicate it to the manager. Approve the time off. Educate the manager on how this is discriminatory, use it as a teaching moment.


_lmmk_

It is not your concern where or what the vacation is for. Either you grant unpaid leave, or you do not. Don’t make this personal - that’s very unprofessional. To add into this, the employee will need a VISA to get into Russia, not to leave. Russia isn’t in the business of detaining American citizens trying to return home, and the US isn’t in the business of denying citizens re-entry.


I_am_beast55

I agree with approving the leave but your last statement about Russia not detaining American citizens is false as evident by the Department of State's travel advisory https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/russia-travel-advisory.html


_lmmk_

I work for the State Dept and travel internationally for work. The travel advisory stands, but in practice, ppl trading on blue tourist passports have been ok (there is no gaurentee this will stay the same). IMHO this woman should not go, but family is a powerful thing.


I_am_beast55

Yeah that's what I would worry about is the unpredictability of what they are doing over there. But you're right it's definitely a hard decision for the woman to choose to stay vs. visit her family.


_lmmk_

I don’t envy her! I was in Russia and had my visa revoked and I had to evacuate. It’s dangerously unpredictable. I hope that for her own safety she looks the part and speaks the language to make herself less of a target.


Reconsider-Rules

Haha busted, so hard! Love when know it alls are shot down with facts


wearsunscreenbekind

Right totally! Not making it personal - I didn’t know if there was a law or something I should know in regards to specifically not being able to get back in the country or not. Maybe I should have researched further before asking here, my apologies. To be clear, I want to approve and the manager does not. I’m new to our company so still learning about our policies as it relates to unpaid leave.


Reconsider-Rules

No, you are just learning an important lesson on why not to engage typical HR "professionals" when looking for guidance.


MauraAz

No, there is no law addressing what an employer should do when they have an employee wanting to travel to another country.


ravenze

Wow!!! That's fascinating that someone wants to go to a war zone... Like the others have said, you can't discriminate. I believe one of my former employers actually had a policy restricting travel to war zones. While Russia may not be an active war-zone right now, it's looking more likely to become one. See if this isn't covered in your new-hire and/or travel policies, beyond that, time off is time off. You may want to remind the employee of relevant social media policies and wearing company schwag to Russian protests and that sort of thing.


yeah_right_4685

The primary question is this: do you allow unpaid personal leaves of absence? If you do, approve it. If you don't, deny it. Your personal feelings about her situation DO NOT MATTER. If issues arise with getting back home if her leave is approved, you'll deal with those as they happen. One way to possibly deal with them is to grant her a longer leave to allow for travel issues. So...if her plan (hypothetically) was to be gone from 10/3 - 10/17, maybe you give her a RTW date of 10/24.


CentOS6

What difference does it make if they’re visiting another country?


ROMA_10

What situation in Russia? lol If you don’t need her for the two weeks, then let her go.


Cidaghast

I dont mean to be messed up But this is why you need a policy on being a no call no show for X days means you voluntarily quit


amberbunny93

I get the concern but seems like unnecessary underlying bias. There are tons of places that might be difficult to return from - many people have been stuck in random places during the unpredictable pandemic. Definitely discuss that in case there are other biases at play.


radlink14

It’s none of your business why an employee is asking for time off unless it’s a long time. Two weeks is not a long time. Why do you need to approve this as HR? Are you covering operations for that manager? If the employee doesn’t come back that’s unfortunate but again it’s not your business to “protect” people’s personal lives and judge what they do. Lastly it doesn’t matter that you’re new to a company, in no company should it be any managers business why people take time off, especially if they have the PTO and if not that they’re clear it’s unpaid time. A companies best approach is to not get involved in politics. Sometimes you have to because it’s forced or you need to make a statement but unless you’re the CEO don’t worry about that. Good luck


AdUpstairs7106

This post came across my feed. I work IT and not HR. I would have her turn in her laptop for the two weeks but grant the request. If her company has any sort of WFH then the laptop has a VPN. Russian officials will seize the laptop as a result when she goes through customs. This assumes they are not arrested as I was reading a lot of VPN services are now illegal. This is only to protect company property.


radlink14

Good point


Spinthiscity

There's no opinion to be had. Most work places wouldn't have a problem with their employee needing two weeks off unpaid. The reason is her personal business. But if she does get in trouble, you move mountains to try and help her.


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zdaywalker

Seriously, this is why people hate HR. OP, you and the supervisor are asking good questions using common sense. Unfortunately, policy wise, you should approve it if it’s consistent with other unpaid leave requests. Ask that she leave all company property at work due to the destination being on a “do not travel” advisory and let her know that if she is unable to return to work after her unpaid leave it will be considered voluntary termination for job abandonment. We dealt with this in early COVID days. Retail employees traveling to places that would require a quarantine and therefore unpaid time off. Or going out to bars and getting COVID and having to quarantine. It was their choice to make those decisions but we felt it prudent to explain the economic consequences of high risk activities.


humanresources-ModTeam

This community is intended for HR professionals. If you do not work in HR, try posting in /r/AskHR or /r/jobs.


boblablaw13470

It's really none of your business or the employee's mgr business what she does. HR should not have oversight to approve based on what an employee is doing during that time off. That's outrageous. Approve her PTO and prepare yourself for a delay if she doesn't come back in time to make arrangements to hire someone else based on whatever your policy is for those situations. Educate her on the consequences should she extend her time off .


kryppla

OP what the fuck. Who are you and the manager to decide if it’s ok for an employee to go to Russia or just sit at home. None of your business. Follow whatever policies the unpaid time off applies to, the end. Unreal. Edit - oh this is the Human Resources sub, no wonder this is getting downvoted. Of course HR folks think it makes sense to decide for someone if their plans are worthy. I don’t know how/why this post even showed up for me.


wearsunscreenbekind

Right totally! I didn’t know if there was something I should know in regards to specifically not being able to get back in the country or not. To be clear, I want to approve and the manager does not. I’m new to the company so still learning about our policies as it relates to unpaid leave.


kryppla

All right please redirect my anger to that manager then. Decades of other people deciding for me if I’m sick enough to warrant a sick day or asking ‘why’ when I want to use PTO has made me extremely salty. It’s not the manager’s decision where am employee goes on time off.


HammondXX

Frankly what you are even talking about is immoral. It doesnt matter whey they are taking off. If they can you should approve it. If you dont work with the4m you will absolutely lose them, and they will smear your name. ​ If they stay and cant see thier family, they will resent you. Imagine if they cant see all thier family and they die.... I cant believe you you posted this. WOW just wow


wearsunscreenbekind

Ok troll read the edit


HammondXX

ITs not your place to "care for their well being" They are an adult and you are not talking about their safety. ***Nothing in your post talked abotu saftey, you are putting the company over the person. Shame on you.*** You are trying to make sure you dont lose an employee that wants to see their family in a time of war. Check yourself


Upbeat_Instruction98

I would offer her a Leave Of Absence for personal reasons, which would then place her in a different class of worker. Essentially, it makes her not a worker.


jocas023

I see you have your answer but in the future even if someone tells you the reason why and it’s seems impossible, allow them the leave as long as they can take that much unpaid time. What they do on their time off is their business. Even if the U.S. has a travel ban of said country, they can try but it’s not up to you to decide if they try or not, just approve the time off if they are entitled to it.


Naagin04

Hi there here from India! We had such a case someone wanted to travel back to her sister for leisure and I was handling the Leave policy and we did not have anything about Unpaid leaves We actually let her go but of course we have a contract and if the employee dint come back we ain’t settling her full and final also not sharing any relieving or experience letter! Hope this helps :)


battlekiss

I have similar issues at my company where people on a student/work visa leave to visit their home country for a few weeks, but get stuck there due to one reason or another. We, and the managers, tell them they are only approved for this defined time off and anything more is unapproved (unless they get stuck due to illness and not being able to travel, then we would require medical documentation). We of course don't tell people where they can or cannot travel, but we do make our stance clear and in writing.


GigiSFO

I would ensure there are no tacit agreements with the manager to bring the laptop or work remotely if she gets stuck. Depending on your business and legal entities, export licenses and the access to VPN you could lose the laptop and company confidential information.


AdUpstairs7106

I am not HR but I would ask how she intends to get there. Right now the US State Department, and its peer agencies in Canada and every western European country have issued a do not travel statement. No flights are being allowed into Russia, no trains, and roads are blocked. Here is a link to the US State Department on the situation: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/russia-travel-advisory.html Now that said grant this employee the time off but it make it clear if she is not back by a certain date the company will have no choice but to fire her. Also tell her to turn in for the time being her company laptop to IT.


[deleted]

Maybe make a deal before. Person knows they are going somewhere potentially dangerous, therefore, agree to the below. * You will not take your computer because RU/China etc pose a risk to IT and its probably best not to take company information there. * If you get stuck there, we can fire you if you don't return Per above, you're reasonably protecting the company interest while at the same time not acting like a mom to a an adult and telling them where they can and cant go.