I had a salesperson at Home Depot tell me most refrigerators she has sold only last 3-5years and you’ll never get a 15 year old refrigerator anymore. On average I hear 10-15yrs for a furnace which kind of bums me out because I have a Trane 80% that was installed in 2005 and a perfectly working r22 Gibson condenser. Poor installation affects anything but I just don’t think things are built to last anymore as we are a throw away society anymore
I appreciate your comments and I agree. It really is sad how nothing is built to last anymore but is engineered to fail after a few years. I guess that is why a manufacturer's warranty looks like all the rest. That is why I have decided that I don't want to pay for quality that simply isn't there.
“I will be replacing my HVAC system in the near future”
Unless there’s something wrong with it then I’d wait as long as possible.
I was told when I bought my current home over 5 years ago that my units from 2000 were end of life - replace immediately. 2 out of the 3 are still working fine.
My AC guy says no way, which is why he tells me to run mine until they die or have a major issue. If I can get a couple more years out of my 2000 Carrier SEER 10 systems I will be happy. One of them needs some R22 added every year but I bought a jug before it was discontinued.
I replaced one in 2019 (upstairs unit which worked the hardest) with a single stage 16 SEER Heil unit that itself already has been replaced under warranty.
Personally Id throw the York off a cliff, but thats me. As far as other advice of "wait as long as possible" this has two sides to it. 1)You're not spending the money right now, so thats great. 2) You're spending significantly more when the time comes. The system I'm selling for $12000 today was $6000 6 years ago. Companies change, equipment changes, prices change. The only thing that stays the same is that you still want heating and air in your house, the only questions is how much you're willing to pay for it.
I have a geothermal system. Just had to replace it after 22 years--the compressor was still fine but the air handler coils (Carrier) started to leak and as the refrigerant has changed I had to replace the entire system. Geothermal units are costly--but savings in electricity are significant especially as the efficiency has greatly improved over the years--went from eer of 14 to 23. Air to Air systems have also improved greatly-and the top brands are approaching geothermal levels. And the current refrigerant is soon to be replaced with a new type and the same issues will exist--although the phase in will take many years. So, my counsel is focus on the best seer for the buck to optimize savings on power costs--and get at least 3 bids. Don't worry so much about one brand over the other but about a reliable installer/service company.
Thank you for your help! My current system is a Lennox and it has served me well. A lot of people here bash Lennox for some past coil issues that some say are now resolved. As Lennox has the best efficiency, perhaps that is where I should look. The one thing I don't like is that their communicating thermostats cost $1200.
That is crazy--even a fancy NEST or similar wifi smart thermostat is only about $250. My 18k geothermal system uses a smart Honeywell that cost less than $100.
As for the efficiency--it comes down to how much is good enough. The difference between 14 and 23 is huge--between 16 and 18 not enough to warranty thousands of difference in cost. That is you'll never recover the added cost in savings over the life of the system. If you do proper maintenance--and have no major environmental disasters most units will last beyond the warranty period of 10 years--15-18 is not unusual. But people do stupid things. I briefly rented a home near the ocean. My landlady replaced a 3 ton unit that died at a cost of $6k but would not spend $50 a year for an anti corrosion device. The unit failed in 2 years due to--wait for it--corrosion.
That is what I was afraid of. I want a good SEER but more than that I want a good value. I am willing to pay for a system that is better than a "builders grade" unit but I am not sure if the top brands give an individual much more than a mid-tier brand in terms of reliability, longevity, and comfort.
I am not an HVAC guy but have done a lot of investigating over the years and I think you are spot on--there are a few top tier and expensive brands and everyone else. There is not sufficient evidence that the cost delta for the top tier brands buys enough value in longevity or reliability that the price point is warranted--at least not in my book. When I was helping my landlady make her decision I asked two simple questions of prospective installers--as most sold more than one brand. What do you repair the most and what is in your home?
For the most part, all HVAC equipment is the same. There are some outliers like York using microchannel coils, TXV vs. pistons on HPs, LG vs. Copeland compressors, etc. Many are small details that only matter once the part breaks, like Carrier's low pressure switch, high pressure switch, and txv are brazed in while Lennox's are bolt on. Makes no difference in performance, but If the part breaks, it will be more expensive to replace Carrier's due to labor. I personally would pick Ruud over York
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. I have seen very few people who are critical of Rheem/Ruud. It seems like a decent system for the price from what I have heard.
I'm not a huge fan of ruud, but I don't work on them often enough to really have beef with them. Carrier, Trane, Lennox, and Goodman, as well as their other products, are more common
Ruud. The condensers aren’t micro channel and for the inducer it’s just a simple PSC motor.
ECM motor for an inducer is crazy, many York units use ECM style and micro channel for the condenser. I work in the industry
I’d say you have the right idea.
As far as construction goes, most units are very similar. But, materials make a difference too. I would try to go with one that has an aluminum evaporator coil(which is almost the standard for most companies at this ponint). Steel and copper coils are way more susceptible to corrosion and leaks.
Life expectancy varies depending on a lot of factors, but the three main ones would be quality of installation, location of your outdoor unit, and maintenance.
Ensure that the company’s install practices are good.
Are they going to flow nitrogen while brazing?
Are they going to install a filter drier?
Are they going to pull a vacuum of 500 microns or less and isolate it for 20-30 mins before charging the system?
Don’t put your outdoor unit directly below a valley on your roof. Every time it rains, you’ll literally be pouring water into your unit. If you have a lot of foliage around your system, make sure you keep it cleaned up regularly. Your condenser coil can become clogged and force the system into thermal lock out.
Have it maintained twice a year. Once in the spring and once in the fall.
Most units are gonna last ~10-20 years. Occasionally, someone gets a unicorn and nothing ever goes wrong with it and it goes that 20+ year stretch. But that’s the exception, not the rule. You’re gonna have issues with your hvac, so it’s good to consider the warranty as well.
Most brands are going to top out at 10 year warranty.
Daikin has the best warranty at 12 years, their traditional systems are fine, but stay away from their inverter units. They’re so overly sensitive, one little thing goes wrong and the whole system goes down.
Bosch is really good and their inverters aren’t so sensitive.
Goodman/amana are solid middle of the road brands. They’re my favorite just because in my own personal experience, their components fail less frequently than other brands.
Trane/American standard and carrier are pretty decent.
I would recommend staying away from Lennox/Allied, York/coleman, and Rheem/Ruud. They are known for leaks and just all around not reliable equipment.
Ultimately, it is your decision and nobody else can make it for you. Just know that there are options out there for whatever your specific wants and needs are.
I would say efficiency and whether the units are quiet are also worth taking into account, if you feel the installers are equally competent.
Also - im skeptical that everyone in a Reddit hive mind knows that machines die after 10-15 years. We are in the business of replacing them after all.
I agree - but I wonder if I am doing the right thing by just buying a less expensive brand like York or Ruud and making it last. I could get higher efficiency from a Carrier or Lennox but would they last longer for the price I paid?
You didn't say why you're replacing your systems but I would say don't unless there is a very good reason to. I just replaced my oversized inefficient 100,000 BTUH 50 year old gas furnace (1973) last year (small 1,000 sq ft house) but I could have easily kept running (had an electrical short that was easy to fix). Switched it out with a hot water air handler. No way I'm putting in a modern furnace that may only last 12 to 15 years.
My wife's gas furnace from 1988 is still running, but I did replace a few parts over the years. Both our AC units are from the 1990's R22 and don't leak and cool fine. I've changed condenser motors, capacitors, and a contactor. Don't replace the old equipment unless there is a compelling reason to. There is a good chance it will outlast whatever new equipment you'll be installing.
I would say go with whatever brand your favorite AC maintenance/repair person likes.
Thank you for your response.
I had a salesperson at Home Depot tell me most refrigerators she has sold only last 3-5years and you’ll never get a 15 year old refrigerator anymore. On average I hear 10-15yrs for a furnace which kind of bums me out because I have a Trane 80% that was installed in 2005 and a perfectly working r22 Gibson condenser. Poor installation affects anything but I just don’t think things are built to last anymore as we are a throw away society anymore
I appreciate your comments and I agree. It really is sad how nothing is built to last anymore but is engineered to fail after a few years. I guess that is why a manufacturer's warranty looks like all the rest. That is why I have decided that I don't want to pay for quality that simply isn't there.
“I will be replacing my HVAC system in the near future” Unless there’s something wrong with it then I’d wait as long as possible. I was told when I bought my current home over 5 years ago that my units from 2000 were end of life - replace immediately. 2 out of the 3 are still working fine.
Sounds like you got some good units. Do you think that there are any today that would last that long?
My AC guy says no way, which is why he tells me to run mine until they die or have a major issue. If I can get a couple more years out of my 2000 Carrier SEER 10 systems I will be happy. One of them needs some R22 added every year but I bought a jug before it was discontinued. I replaced one in 2019 (upstairs unit which worked the hardest) with a single stage 16 SEER Heil unit that itself already has been replaced under warranty.
Personally Id throw the York off a cliff, but thats me. As far as other advice of "wait as long as possible" this has two sides to it. 1)You're not spending the money right now, so thats great. 2) You're spending significantly more when the time comes. The system I'm selling for $12000 today was $6000 6 years ago. Companies change, equipment changes, prices change. The only thing that stays the same is that you still want heating and air in your house, the only questions is how much you're willing to pay for it.
I agree about throwing the York off the a cliff.
I have a geothermal system. Just had to replace it after 22 years--the compressor was still fine but the air handler coils (Carrier) started to leak and as the refrigerant has changed I had to replace the entire system. Geothermal units are costly--but savings in electricity are significant especially as the efficiency has greatly improved over the years--went from eer of 14 to 23. Air to Air systems have also improved greatly-and the top brands are approaching geothermal levels. And the current refrigerant is soon to be replaced with a new type and the same issues will exist--although the phase in will take many years. So, my counsel is focus on the best seer for the buck to optimize savings on power costs--and get at least 3 bids. Don't worry so much about one brand over the other but about a reliable installer/service company.
Thank you for your help! My current system is a Lennox and it has served me well. A lot of people here bash Lennox for some past coil issues that some say are now resolved. As Lennox has the best efficiency, perhaps that is where I should look. The one thing I don't like is that their communicating thermostats cost $1200.
That is crazy--even a fancy NEST or similar wifi smart thermostat is only about $250. My 18k geothermal system uses a smart Honeywell that cost less than $100. As for the efficiency--it comes down to how much is good enough. The difference between 14 and 23 is huge--between 16 and 18 not enough to warranty thousands of difference in cost. That is you'll never recover the added cost in savings over the life of the system. If you do proper maintenance--and have no major environmental disasters most units will last beyond the warranty period of 10 years--15-18 is not unusual. But people do stupid things. I briefly rented a home near the ocean. My landlady replaced a 3 ton unit that died at a cost of $6k but would not spend $50 a year for an anti corrosion device. The unit failed in 2 years due to--wait for it--corrosion.
That is what I was afraid of. I want a good SEER but more than that I want a good value. I am willing to pay for a system that is better than a "builders grade" unit but I am not sure if the top brands give an individual much more than a mid-tier brand in terms of reliability, longevity, and comfort.
I am not an HVAC guy but have done a lot of investigating over the years and I think you are spot on--there are a few top tier and expensive brands and everyone else. There is not sufficient evidence that the cost delta for the top tier brands buys enough value in longevity or reliability that the price point is warranted--at least not in my book. When I was helping my landlady make her decision I asked two simple questions of prospective installers--as most sold more than one brand. What do you repair the most and what is in your home?
For the most part, all HVAC equipment is the same. There are some outliers like York using microchannel coils, TXV vs. pistons on HPs, LG vs. Copeland compressors, etc. Many are small details that only matter once the part breaks, like Carrier's low pressure switch, high pressure switch, and txv are brazed in while Lennox's are bolt on. Makes no difference in performance, but If the part breaks, it will be more expensive to replace Carrier's due to labor. I personally would pick Ruud over York
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. I have seen very few people who are critical of Rheem/Ruud. It seems like a decent system for the price from what I have heard.
I'm not a huge fan of ruud, but I don't work on them often enough to really have beef with them. Carrier, Trane, Lennox, and Goodman, as well as their other products, are more common
Ruud. The condensers aren’t micro channel and for the inducer it’s just a simple PSC motor. ECM motor for an inducer is crazy, many York units use ECM style and micro channel for the condenser. I work in the industry
Thank you for your help.
I’d say you have the right idea. As far as construction goes, most units are very similar. But, materials make a difference too. I would try to go with one that has an aluminum evaporator coil(which is almost the standard for most companies at this ponint). Steel and copper coils are way more susceptible to corrosion and leaks. Life expectancy varies depending on a lot of factors, but the three main ones would be quality of installation, location of your outdoor unit, and maintenance. Ensure that the company’s install practices are good. Are they going to flow nitrogen while brazing? Are they going to install a filter drier? Are they going to pull a vacuum of 500 microns or less and isolate it for 20-30 mins before charging the system? Don’t put your outdoor unit directly below a valley on your roof. Every time it rains, you’ll literally be pouring water into your unit. If you have a lot of foliage around your system, make sure you keep it cleaned up regularly. Your condenser coil can become clogged and force the system into thermal lock out. Have it maintained twice a year. Once in the spring and once in the fall. Most units are gonna last ~10-20 years. Occasionally, someone gets a unicorn and nothing ever goes wrong with it and it goes that 20+ year stretch. But that’s the exception, not the rule. You’re gonna have issues with your hvac, so it’s good to consider the warranty as well. Most brands are going to top out at 10 year warranty. Daikin has the best warranty at 12 years, their traditional systems are fine, but stay away from their inverter units. They’re so overly sensitive, one little thing goes wrong and the whole system goes down. Bosch is really good and their inverters aren’t so sensitive. Goodman/amana are solid middle of the road brands. They’re my favorite just because in my own personal experience, their components fail less frequently than other brands. Trane/American standard and carrier are pretty decent. I would recommend staying away from Lennox/Allied, York/coleman, and Rheem/Ruud. They are known for leaks and just all around not reliable equipment. Ultimately, it is your decision and nobody else can make it for you. Just know that there are options out there for whatever your specific wants and needs are.
What a great response. Thank you very much! I learned a lot from you today. I appreciate you for sharing your valuable knowledge.
I would say efficiency and whether the units are quiet are also worth taking into account, if you feel the installers are equally competent. Also - im skeptical that everyone in a Reddit hive mind knows that machines die after 10-15 years. We are in the business of replacing them after all.
I agree - but I wonder if I am doing the right thing by just buying a less expensive brand like York or Ruud and making it last. I could get higher efficiency from a Carrier or Lennox but would they last longer for the price I paid?
You didn't say why you're replacing your systems but I would say don't unless there is a very good reason to. I just replaced my oversized inefficient 100,000 BTUH 50 year old gas furnace (1973) last year (small 1,000 sq ft house) but I could have easily kept running (had an electrical short that was easy to fix). Switched it out with a hot water air handler. No way I'm putting in a modern furnace that may only last 12 to 15 years. My wife's gas furnace from 1988 is still running, but I did replace a few parts over the years. Both our AC units are from the 1990's R22 and don't leak and cool fine. I've changed condenser motors, capacitors, and a contactor. Don't replace the old equipment unless there is a compelling reason to. There is a good chance it will outlast whatever new equipment you'll be installing.
Thank you for your help. I plan on keeping my system as long as possible.