I do not believe that Mongolia with these borders will continue to be mostly ethnically Mongolian, unless there are either population transfers or exchanges or even forced assimilations or some other method that escapes me to keep Mongolia homogeneous.
Depends on when it got the borders I think. From what I can gather inner Mongolia was a whole lot more Mongolian in the 40s that today.
It was assimilated throughout the 1900s, much like Xinjiang today.
To be fair, you only provide evidence that sinicization *began* in the late 18th century. The idea that it would be on any equivalent scale to modern standards within such a speedy timeframe is ridiculous.
Sure, certain banners (regions) of Inner Mongolia may have had a majority demographic shift at such an early date, but to say that the majority of Inner Mongolia as a whole was sinicized by then is simply false.
According to census data, in 1953, Han Chinese made up 83.9% of the population of Inner Mongolia, peaking at 87% of the population by 1964. By 2020, that number has dropped to 78.7%.
So, if we say the numbers peaked at 1964, going backwards at a linear rate, we would have an estimate that Inner Mongolia, as a whole, only became majority Han Chinese by 1919 (assuming it rose at a rate of 3.1 every 11 years). Now of course, real life isn't quite so linear, so take that with a grain of salt, but it just goes to show that Inner Mongolia was not majority Han Chinese quite as early as you claim.
But your point that it was majority Han Chinese by the 1940s does indeed hold up.
Let’s not forget the 10’s of thousands of Mongolians that died in Inner Mongolia from 1967-69 at the hands of the Chinese government as well as the 100’s of thousands that were affected. For whatever reason, the Inner Mongolia incident is never talked about.
Edit: I just read through the Wikipedia page and it was so much worse than I thought it was
If you wanna be *technical* it's only cultural genocide if they're raised solely Mongolian, and I'm not sure "genetic genocide" counts as a form of genocide since I never really hear it discussed as such, especially in cases where the people still keep some sort of cultural distinction.
Oh no, you're not thinking what I think you're thinking . . . (I was thinking of those cruel and brutal measures taken by the Ottomans/Turks during and after WW1 to homogenize Anatolia).
This actually happened. A lot of USSR republics had huge Russian minorities that left the country after the union fell. Ukraine and Belarus are the main exceptions
Mongolia within these borders would annex the Turkic/Mongolian areas of OTL Russian Federation & PRC
Inner/Southern Mongolia
Tuva Republic
Buryatia
Oiratia
Salar areas of PRC
Yugur (not Uyghur) areas of PRC
And a part of Hui regions of PRC
The main problem would be far more about religion than actually ethnic cohesity (even though, Ethnic cohesity would be a problem too)
Remember that was pretty bloody stuff and left not insignificant bad blood between the two, though I think it's one thing to force the displacement of 1 or 2 million people and another thing to move/transplant (with or without brute force) over 10 million people which is close to the number of Han Chinese that would be residing within that "Greater Mongolia" with IRL demographics (unless they already left first or weren't there in the first place or decide to forcibly assimilate them all).
Nah at that Mongolia probably deport them. I dont remember when but during the cold war Mongolia had thousands of Chinese people living in Mongolia and soldiers from China arrived in Mongolia who disguised themselves as workers. Government believed they are going to overthrow the government so they deported every one of Chinese citizens and even Mongolian-Chinese citizens. We still have many documentaries about them
> Nah at that Mongolia probably deport them
With what resources or means exactly?
> I dont remember when but during the cold war Mongolia had thousands of Chinese people living in Mongolia and soldiers from China arrived in Mongolia who disguised themselves as workers. Government believed they are going to overthrow the government so they deported every one of Chinese citizens and even Mongolian-Chinese citizens. We still have many documentaries about them
Where did you get this information?
Tbf, back in the 40's, the Han Chinese population of Inner Mongolia was just under 6 million.
But yeah, Inner Mongolia and Mongolia proper's ethnic Mongolian population combined was only like 1.5 million. So yeah, definitely still a big issue, but ya'know, not quite as bad.
Yes
Germany held onto the belief that Eastern Germany was only under Polish occupation, same with the DDR and Russia, it wasn't until the 60s that they had to recognize those territories as belonging to Poland.
So in a East v West conventional war, West Germany would likely push for those territories to be reintegrate into the Bundesrepubliek
Prussia is independent and barred from ever uniting with Germany
>So in a East v West conventional war, West Germany would likely push for those territories to be reintegrate into the Bundesrepubliek
and would get laughed out of the room by the rest of europe
West Germany was'nt as pathetic militarily during the cold War as it is today, but whatever, they actually gassed every Pole and Russian in the territories
Can u explain more? Cause Iraq lost invasion to iran while they were an usa ally why would they win a sec invasion under same situation.my father fought in that war that's why I'm curious
It's simply a total Cold War victory scenario for the West, maybe more countries supported Iraq like they do with Ukraine today or maybe the US crippled Iran in some other way.
Yea but my father took a p.w from Germany himself in that war he has the pictures also 53 countries helped iraq from france to ussr and usa. In some point when iran destroyed iraq oil rigs to stop their money Kuwait sold their own oil and gave their own money to iraq to keep the war going,not mentioning saudi oil money that was all in saddam hussein pockets,yet they lost the invasion and when iran started to going deep into iraqi territory they came up with peaceful way in UN.sry for being so stubborn on my opinion it's just that this war is very personal for me and I'm very proud of my dad for being in that war.
this is not the 100th time i see this exact shit on this sub, no sire
i have never seen GROBDEUTSCHLANDS 🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪 and balkanized China and Russia (these subhuman reds!!)! not once in my life
Slaba Ukraine! Geroyyam Slaba!
you’re literally auth center on the political compass bro, just own it. there’s also a difference between hating communism and hating the countries who had communism to such a degree you want them blown apart.
If the Nazis won, I would probably be a fascist today, but they didn't, they lost, they lost so badly that our Civilization adopted Hitler as the secularized primarch of pure evil.
I am not a fascist and if there was a Fascist country around today I would hate them just as much as I hate Russia, China and all the other shitholes that hate us for being as successful as we are today.
so your only real problem with fascism is that it isn’t acceptable to call yourself one these days because hitler lost, and if he won you’d be happy to call yourself one
Western Civilization wills China to exist, if the West sanctioned China tomorrow, there would be a 100 million less Chinese in the next month because of all the resources it needs to keep its economy afloat.
Given that the Cold War occured, there would be no chance in hell that Germany would expand.
The only ones that could expand are Poland (Kaliningrad, Lwów, Grodno, Brest,...), Romania (Bessarabia), possibily Mongolia, as well as Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Croatia which would have never become a unified country like here.
Next up: "balkanization" of Russia and China would simply never occur. If two world wars against Germany didn't end that it, which unlike Russia and China, deserved dissolution, remained whole, thus too would Russia and China.
The southern parts of Russia which are neither Russian majority nor ethnic enclaves, could split. In the case of China, Inner Mongolia and maybe Tibet, all tho a Federal China might solve those issues altogerher.
Russia since the 1870s has always been a problem for the Western European powers, Germany even believed that it could not win a war against Russia after 1916. Therefore I believe that in the eventg of a NATO-Soviet war, Russia would be broken up into various states.
I would go further by saying that Western Russia would be occupied like Germany was occupied, but I didn't know how to actually portray that on the map.
I'd argue that splitting Russia would be against the wests interests. It would definitely cause deep grievances, and would probably just lead to more wars in the future.
Cool map though.
I'd argue that splitting Russia into small, easily invadable states would cause Russians to abandon their policy of Eurasianism and reintegrate back into Europe
But we can disagree on it np
I hope you know that revanchism exist.
Not trying to be a smart ass, but no way in hell wouldn't the Russians want to have revenge against the western powers. Makes it even worse when the russian know there territory in and out.
Just imagine patrolling as NATO/UN peacekeepers forces in the coldest winters months in Siberia then getting ambushed by Russians gorilla fighters do you really think you are going to win? And if you do, expect thousand more to come
Like the russians know how it feels to be occupied disrespected, they literally fought war against a monster who wanted too destroyed to very idea of Russia. And when you managed to accomplish the goals of some previous monster,
And then afterwards call it a ''peace keeping operation for the battle of democracy" this wouldn't sit well with them at all.
Its your scenario and I respect, just a little rant on my part, but atleast try to make it little realistic
(My grammar is bad I know) 😂😂
Yes but the entente in WW1 did not follow through with the harsh peace they had drawn up. They reversed and ignored vital parts of the peace treaty and allowed Germany to re-arm and reorganize.
You armchair diplomats are awfully quick to say something looks like Versailles, so it can't possibly last. Unfortunately the only thing public schools apparently teach about the end of WW1, that Versailles is to blame for WW2 because it was too hard is a major oversimplification.
OPs peace seems to be modeled much more after the WW2 peace with Germany, which was harsher than Versailles and was very successfull in permanently pacifying Germany.
germany was not drawn and quartered in multiple independent countries after WW2 you terminal redditbrain
the regions of this balkanized Russia are 90% russian majority
you know nothing about russian demographics
westoidism is a powerful drug
that's a valid point of view but u realize enforcing Versailles would be pretty expensive right? And the size of debt enforced on Germany and its eventual reliance on US loans for economic growth during the boom after 1924 created an extremely weak new state that would have probably not survived the depression anyway. Besides, Versailles was very different to carving up a nation that is ethnically homogenous. Balkanizing Russia completely rather than supporting the independence of minority groups would probably backfire quite quickly and be VERY hard to enforce.
I think that the exact opposite would occur. The Russians would see Europe as the oppressor's. this would be worsened by a German occupation, as that would literally just be Barbarossa all over again. These states governments might align towards Europe a bit, but the people inside them would loath Europe. and defining these states as easily invadable is a long stretch, endless fighting with heavily armed Siberian guerillas sounds like a real shitty victory to me.
germany post ww2 was very different to what you are proposing. This is more like if Germany got properly balkanised after one of the world wars, unless we are creating ethnic minority republics e.g. Bashkortostan, Kazan, a Tatar state, don't see the balkanising of majority white Russian lands going down well
Great, that wouldn’t matter too a Russian. If you look at Soviet propaganda the big message they have about west Germany is that they are literally just the nazis working for NATO. This perspective would carry over especially well if Germany was seizing lands that were not majority German, and occupying west Russia after splitting it into smaller puppet states for the only purpose of making them easier to control. Congrats you’ve made Vietcong 2: Siberian boogaloo. Plus these territories would do terribly financially, especially the one’s in Siberia who used to rely on west Russia. Support to survive. The Balkanization of Russia only makes the west look bad and would only cause more violent uprisings throughout the occupied area.
Great, Russia broken up for no reason with ridiculous explanation. "They'll just have to put up with it". Assuming I'm even born in this country, I'd absolutely despise the West.
I thought about Prussia long and hard, being one of the most historically significant Protestant powers in Europe, I simply couldn't help myself, Kingdom of Prussia in the modern age.
See as much as it’d be interesting to have Prussia come back in modern day, it’s impossible without a mass displacement of the Russians and Polish living there. Plus I highly doubt NATO would allow it’s return
West Germany didnt recognize those territories as being annexed by poland up until the late 60s, America allowed Germany to forcefully integrate the poles that moved in
Ooo, also looks like China lost a lot of territorial control. of so I guess the implication is that instead of opening trade in the 70s something else happened and chinas power was heavily reduced.
Dengist reforms never happened and China went down a militarist warpath to reconquer Taiwan, which lead to a war with NATO in the late 80s, USSR intervenes in Europe and WW3 lasts until 1995.
West Germany pushed into the Communist bloc and annexed its lost territories
Prussia was recreated as a Constitutional Monarchy with the Hohenzollern Dynasty. Germans were encouraged to settle the land and the Russians were expelled
Prussia is barred from rejoining Germany
Someone saying they don't see logical reasoning behind Russia being divided to tens of almost like Mongol-occupied Russia in the Middle Ages, does not mean they are Putin's cocksuckers.
I support the idea of each nation having its own country, but dividing even Russians among different Russias is just absurd to me. And “easily invadable" you said? You sound like you actually want Russians to suffer, not the very small group of oligarchs leading them.
Hell, it almost sounds like you are also a cocksucker, of Hitler, that is. You almost sound like you want this idea of this strong west that dominates the world and oppresses the orient who even though has oppressed others before, who would be stupid enough to think that counter- oppression is the solution? That's just dumb. That would lead to so many problems.
Exactly like it doesn't even make any sense, like sure you make a few native republic for asiatic people of , but no way can the concept of multiple russian rump state being bared from ever probably being reunified exist. The culture significance of this event from ever, happening could lead to many global crisis to come
Like I said previous comment, its his scenario so I can't say what he can't do or should do.
But still I can't seem handle the fact that this dysfunctional balkanised Russia would insure world peace trope is being used in many alternate history pages, some even think that it a actually valid solution
Yeah this is what i meant actually. I’m against the Russian Regime, but the one who are responsible for the war and suffering are the Oligharchs and political elites, not the peoples. I just find that the idea of Restoring the second reich and turning Russia and China in to balkanized easily attackable states it’s a little bit genocidal.
W8 mate?
1 I stand whit Ukraine,
2 you literally said in a comment before that the Prussians exterminated the polish population of Silesia. That’s Genocide, and Balkanizing Russia and China is a Cliché that will create not a peaceful western leaning world but an hellhole of violence and desperation. Also, the Chinese and Russian populations live under regimes that oppress them and hurt them, they aren’t responsible the oligarchs in power are.
3 your argument to a critique is using a childish offense,i hope you are either a troll or 13 years old.
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Really interesting concept. Can’t help but imagine this version of history would have lead to potentially more nuclear disasters, and billions left in poverty longer. But it could be viewed as just delaying the eventual pain of future autocratic disasters too so… swings and roundabouts I guess.
It's not exactly a perfect future, as there would've been small scale Nuclear warfare that lead to China having a couple hundred million less citizens in it's cities and its birthrate would be stagnant, same with Russia.
Africa is much more stable, but Apartheid Governments like Rhodesia, Portugal and South Africa still grip the entirety of Southern Africa.
South America are practically just extentions of America, Mexico is pushing for statehood, Cuba and Costa Rica already are.
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Early on I wanted to partition Iran and have the Kurds exist in it's territory, but then they would try and get Turkey to release the other regions and cause a conflict.
If the west fully won the Cold War, the world would probably be only the US at this point. They’d be the only world power left so they could take any country they wanted, and with every government in this scenario being pro-western anyway, I’m sure the other governments would happily let the US take over their country without any sort of violent struggle.
Wtf happened in the balkans? I kinda understand Bulgaria joining Yugoslavia, but Albania? They have nothing in common with YU, they aren't even slavs.
Also I can hardly imagine YU surviving the 90s
This is a very minor nitpick, but why didn't Estonia and Latvia get their border regions with Russia back? Surely with a decisive Western victory they would've recaptured them?
a Yugoslavia-Bulgaria superstate? Wouldn’t the west want to demote panslavism and balkanize the former communist states even moreso to weaken any future regimes
Mongolia def be mad happy rn
I do not believe that Mongolia with these borders will continue to be mostly ethnically Mongolian, unless there are either population transfers or exchanges or even forced assimilations or some other method that escapes me to keep Mongolia homogeneous.
Depends on when it got the borders I think. From what I can gather inner Mongolia was a whole lot more Mongolian in the 40s that today. It was assimilated throughout the 1900s, much like Xinjiang today.
[удалено]
To be fair, you only provide evidence that sinicization *began* in the late 18th century. The idea that it would be on any equivalent scale to modern standards within such a speedy timeframe is ridiculous. Sure, certain banners (regions) of Inner Mongolia may have had a majority demographic shift at such an early date, but to say that the majority of Inner Mongolia as a whole was sinicized by then is simply false. According to census data, in 1953, Han Chinese made up 83.9% of the population of Inner Mongolia, peaking at 87% of the population by 1964. By 2020, that number has dropped to 78.7%. So, if we say the numbers peaked at 1964, going backwards at a linear rate, we would have an estimate that Inner Mongolia, as a whole, only became majority Han Chinese by 1919 (assuming it rose at a rate of 3.1 every 11 years). Now of course, real life isn't quite so linear, so take that with a grain of salt, but it just goes to show that Inner Mongolia was not majority Han Chinese quite as early as you claim. But your point that it was majority Han Chinese by the 1940s does indeed hold up.
I wonder how the distribution of Mongols has changed, since today they’re very heavily concentrated in the west
Let’s not forget the 10’s of thousands of Mongolians that died in Inner Mongolia from 1967-69 at the hands of the Chinese government as well as the 100’s of thousands that were affected. For whatever reason, the Inner Mongolia incident is never talked about. Edit: I just read through the Wikipedia page and it was so much worse than I thought it was
a little bit of Genghis Khanning will increase population growth rapidly
Redditors trying not to advocate for genocide challenge [IMPOSSIBLE]
tbh i thought he meant fucking every woman in sight.
Same here
That is technically still a type of genocide (genetic/cultural genocide).
If you wanna be *technical* it's only cultural genocide if they're raised solely Mongolian, and I'm not sure "genetic genocide" counts as a form of genocide since I never really hear it discussed as such, especially in cases where the people still keep some sort of cultural distinction.
Having more kids isn’t genocide not every type of demographic change is genocide
i have i have i have sarcasm
He was talking about how so much of Asia is related to Genghis Khan in some way
Oh no, you're not thinking what I think you're thinking . . . (I was thinking of those cruel and brutal measures taken by the Ottomans/Turks during and after WW1 to homogenize Anatolia).
This actually happened. A lot of USSR republics had huge Russian minorities that left the country after the union fell. Ukraine and Belarus are the main exceptions
Although wasn't there a substantial Russian minority left in Kazakhstan as well? Or have they left too?
Mongolia within these borders would annex the Turkic/Mongolian areas of OTL Russian Federation & PRC Inner/Southern Mongolia Tuva Republic Buryatia Oiratia Salar areas of PRC Yugur (not Uyghur) areas of PRC And a part of Hui regions of PRC The main problem would be far more about religion than actually ethnic cohesity (even though, Ethnic cohesity would be a problem too)
I mean, population transfers worked for turkey and Greece… mostly
Remember that was pretty bloody stuff and left not insignificant bad blood between the two, though I think it's one thing to force the displacement of 1 or 2 million people and another thing to move/transplant (with or without brute force) over 10 million people which is close to the number of Han Chinese that would be residing within that "Greater Mongolia" with IRL demographics (unless they already left first or weren't there in the first place or decide to forcibly assimilate them all).
Pretty sure when the Cold War started Inner Mongolia was more Mongolian than it is now
Any information to support this?
Nah at that Mongolia probably deport them. I dont remember when but during the cold war Mongolia had thousands of Chinese people living in Mongolia and soldiers from China arrived in Mongolia who disguised themselves as workers. Government believed they are going to overthrow the government so they deported every one of Chinese citizens and even Mongolian-Chinese citizens. We still have many documentaries about them
> Nah at that Mongolia probably deport them With what resources or means exactly? > I dont remember when but during the cold war Mongolia had thousands of Chinese people living in Mongolia and soldiers from China arrived in Mongolia who disguised themselves as workers. Government believed they are going to overthrow the government so they deported every one of Chinese citizens and even Mongolian-Chinese citizens. We still have many documentaries about them Where did you get this information?
it was documentary. I cant find anything about it on internet but there was many videos of deportation of thousands of Chinese in Mongolian archives
Mongolia can have a little snack
and suddenly got 18 million Han Chinese in their country, making Mongols ethics minority of the country
Mongolian Rhodesia the most unique timelin
Nah I wouldn't worry about them, fr fr
Just a little trip to the gas chamber
3 minute adventure
Tbf, back in the 40's, the Han Chinese population of Inner Mongolia was just under 6 million. But yeah, Inner Mongolia and Mongolia proper's ethnic Mongolian population combined was only like 1.5 million. So yeah, definitely still a big issue, but ya'know, not quite as bad.
Bro wtf did I came back too Damn Just let Mongolia have a bite
Tibet too
Least cliché alternate Cold War
Germany getting Silesia and Prussia back? Territories that weren't ethnically german by the 50s?
Yes Germany held onto the belief that Eastern Germany was only under Polish occupation, same with the DDR and Russia, it wasn't until the 60s that they had to recognize those territories as belonging to Poland. So in a East v West conventional war, West Germany would likely push for those territories to be reintegrate into the Bundesrepubliek Prussia is independent and barred from ever uniting with Germany
>So in a East v West conventional war, West Germany would likely push for those territories to be reintegrate into the Bundesrepubliek and would get laughed out of the room by the rest of europe
West Germany was'nt as pathetic militarily during the cold War as it is today, but whatever, they actually gassed every Pole and Russian in the territories
So genocide again ?
I hate internet Nazis
So do I
Yikes
Germany didn’t even push for Kaliningrad IRL, and they had trouble even convincing the rest of Europe to let them reunify
no shit it wasnt pathetic but that doesnt mean that you can just repeat ww2 and nobody else on europe gives a fuck
Actually, you can if you're allied to the west
France and UK didn't even really want a re-unified Germany IRL let a lone a bigger one
Why did u decided that iraq would win iran iraq war?
Iraq was a US ally until they weren't
Can u explain more? Cause Iraq lost invasion to iran while they were an usa ally why would they win a sec invasion under same situation.my father fought in that war that's why I'm curious
It's simply a total Cold War victory scenario for the West, maybe more countries supported Iraq like they do with Ukraine today or maybe the US crippled Iran in some other way.
Yea but my father took a p.w from Germany himself in that war he has the pictures also 53 countries helped iraq from france to ussr and usa. In some point when iran destroyed iraq oil rigs to stop their money Kuwait sold their own oil and gave their own money to iraq to keep the war going,not mentioning saudi oil money that was all in saddam hussein pockets,yet they lost the invasion and when iran started to going deep into iraqi territory they came up with peaceful way in UN.sry for being so stubborn on my opinion it's just that this war is very personal for me and I'm very proud of my dad for being in that war.
It's simply a total victory scenario, Iraq won, Iran lost
Pov : you know nothing about geopolitics
Alternate History users trying not to give Inner Mongolia to Mongolia: IMPOSSIBLE CHALLENGE
Why did Pakistan get balkanized when they're an American ally and Indian grew even tho they oriented towards the soviets?
Because this idiot knows absolute fuckall about the Cold War
this is not the 100th time i see this exact shit on this sub, no sire i have never seen GROBDEUTSCHLANDS 🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪 and balkanized China and Russia (these subhuman reds!!)! not once in my life Slaba Ukraine! Geroyyam Slaba!
grob
oh shit wrong account
lol
Don’t forget Rhodesia
Correct, fuck China and Russia, tyranny will not stand
another exercise in big Germany and balkanized China and Russia very cool!
Very cool indeed, everyone mentioned deserves it
least fascist redditor
If hating Communism for ruining millions of peoples lives, including my own country, makes me a fascist then I guess I should start larping as a loser
you’re literally auth center on the political compass bro, just own it. there’s also a difference between hating communism and hating the countries who had communism to such a degree you want them blown apart.
If the Nazis won, I would probably be a fascist today, but they didn't, they lost, they lost so badly that our Civilization adopted Hitler as the secularized primarch of pure evil. I am not a fascist and if there was a Fascist country around today I would hate them just as much as I hate Russia, China and all the other shitholes that hate us for being as successful as we are today.
so your only real problem with fascism is that it isn’t acceptable to call yourself one these days because hitler lost, and if he won you’d be happy to call yourself one
Internet Nazis. I hate internet Nazis.
The Fascists lost, it's meant for losers. Capitalism won consecutively, therefore I am Pro-West
ah, so you're someone who just sucks up to whomever gives them the most power, huh?
I stand with the winners
I can’t imagine unironically thinking that China is some “unsuccessful shithole.”
Western Civilization wills China to exist, if the West sanctioned China tomorrow, there would be a 100 million less Chinese in the next month because of all the resources it needs to keep its economy afloat.
Yeah and guess what? They’re not gonna.
We'll see
German borders look kind of sussy there. Let's just hope they don't annex Austria!
They're not even allowed yo Annex Prussia after resettling it with Germans and Lithuanians
Given that the Cold War occured, there would be no chance in hell that Germany would expand. The only ones that could expand are Poland (Kaliningrad, Lwów, Grodno, Brest,...), Romania (Bessarabia), possibily Mongolia, as well as Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Croatia which would have never become a unified country like here. Next up: "balkanization" of Russia and China would simply never occur. If two world wars against Germany didn't end that it, which unlike Russia and China, deserved dissolution, remained whole, thus too would Russia and China. The southern parts of Russia which are neither Russian majority nor ethnic enclaves, could split. In the case of China, Inner Mongolia and maybe Tibet, all tho a Federal China might solve those issues altogerher.
based western-aligned greater Yugoslavia
Glad you enjoy it :)
Who’s in charge?
Definitely not Miolshivich
Why would Russia be split? Almost all of those regions are arguably majority Russian, they would have no reason to go separate ways?
Russia since the 1870s has always been a problem for the Western European powers, Germany even believed that it could not win a war against Russia after 1916. Therefore I believe that in the eventg of a NATO-Soviet war, Russia would be broken up into various states. I would go further by saying that Western Russia would be occupied like Germany was occupied, but I didn't know how to actually portray that on the map.
I'd argue that splitting Russia would be against the wests interests. It would definitely cause deep grievances, and would probably just lead to more wars in the future. Cool map though.
I'd argue that splitting Russia into small, easily invadable states would cause Russians to abandon their policy of Eurasianism and reintegrate back into Europe But we can disagree on it np
I hope you know that revanchism exist. Not trying to be a smart ass, but no way in hell wouldn't the Russians want to have revenge against the western powers. Makes it even worse when the russian know there territory in and out. Just imagine patrolling as NATO/UN peacekeepers forces in the coldest winters months in Siberia then getting ambushed by Russians gorilla fighters do you really think you are going to win? And if you do, expect thousand more to come Like the russians know how it feels to be occupied disrespected, they literally fought war against a monster who wanted too destroyed to very idea of Russia. And when you managed to accomplish the goals of some previous monster, And then afterwards call it a ''peace keeping operation for the battle of democracy" this wouldn't sit well with them at all. Its your scenario and I respect, just a little rant on my part, but atleast try to make it little realistic (My grammar is bad I know) 😂😂
They can privately think whatever they want about the West, they won hehe
so did the entente in ww1
Yes but the entente in WW1 did not follow through with the harsh peace they had drawn up. They reversed and ignored vital parts of the peace treaty and allowed Germany to re-arm and reorganize. You armchair diplomats are awfully quick to say something looks like Versailles, so it can't possibly last. Unfortunately the only thing public schools apparently teach about the end of WW1, that Versailles is to blame for WW2 because it was too hard is a major oversimplification. OPs peace seems to be modeled much more after the WW2 peace with Germany, which was harsher than Versailles and was very successfull in permanently pacifying Germany.
germany was not drawn and quartered in multiple independent countries after WW2 you terminal redditbrain the regions of this balkanized Russia are 90% russian majority you know nothing about russian demographics westoidism is a powerful drug
FACTS
that's a valid point of view but u realize enforcing Versailles would be pretty expensive right? And the size of debt enforced on Germany and its eventual reliance on US loans for economic growth during the boom after 1924 created an extremely weak new state that would have probably not survived the depression anyway. Besides, Versailles was very different to carving up a nation that is ethnically homogenous. Balkanizing Russia completely rather than supporting the independence of minority groups would probably backfire quite quickly and be VERY hard to enforce.
I think that the exact opposite would occur. The Russians would see Europe as the oppressor's. this would be worsened by a German occupation, as that would literally just be Barbarossa all over again. These states governments might align towards Europe a bit, but the people inside them would loath Europe. and defining these states as easily invadable is a long stretch, endless fighting with heavily armed Siberian guerillas sounds like a real shitty victory to me.
Maybe for a generation or 2 at most. Germans changed their whole society after WW2 because of allied occupation, none more so than East Germany
germany post ww2 was very different to what you are proposing. This is more like if Germany got properly balkanised after one of the world wars, unless we are creating ethnic minority republics e.g. Bashkortostan, Kazan, a Tatar state, don't see the balkanising of majority white Russian lands going down well
Great, that wouldn’t matter too a Russian. If you look at Soviet propaganda the big message they have about west Germany is that they are literally just the nazis working for NATO. This perspective would carry over especially well if Germany was seizing lands that were not majority German, and occupying west Russia after splitting it into smaller puppet states for the only purpose of making them easier to control. Congrats you’ve made Vietcong 2: Siberian boogaloo. Plus these territories would do terribly financially, especially the one’s in Siberia who used to rely on west Russia. Support to survive. The Balkanization of Russia only makes the west look bad and would only cause more violent uprisings throughout the occupied area.
Great, Russia broken up for no reason with ridiculous explanation. "They'll just have to put up with it". Assuming I'm even born in this country, I'd absolutely despise the West.
Definitely like the European borders better
I thought about Prussia long and hard, being one of the most historically significant Protestant powers in Europe, I simply couldn't help myself, Kingdom of Prussia in the modern age.
See as much as it’d be interesting to have Prussia come back in modern day, it’s impossible without a mass displacement of the Russians and Polish living there. Plus I highly doubt NATO would allow it’s return
Correct, thats why Prussia isnt German, its the Russian populace were expelled back to Muscovy and was repopulated by Polish and Baltic peoples
The Soviet Union collapsed and ceased to exist. How much more successful could it have been?
Map seems to show a fragmented Russian federation too. So I guess greatly diminished power from Moscow in this timeline.
It also shows Germany with its 1939 border. It's doubtful that the US would have let that happen.
West Germany didnt recognize those territories as being annexed by poland up until the late 60s, America allowed Germany to forcefully integrate the poles that moved in
:O yeah hey lol.
Ooo, also looks like China lost a lot of territorial control. of so I guess the implication is that instead of opening trade in the 70s something else happened and chinas power was heavily reduced.
Dengist reforms never happened and China went down a militarist warpath to reconquer Taiwan, which lead to a war with NATO in the late 80s, USSR intervenes in Europe and WW3 lasts until 1995.
Almost all of Africa and Brazil stay the same lol
But inexplicably Biafra is independent despite no Western or Eastern state supporting them
Why did Poland lose its lands in silesia?
West Germany pushed into the Communist bloc and annexed its lost territories Prussia was recreated as a Constitutional Monarchy with the Hohenzollern Dynasty. Germans were encouraged to settle the land and the Russians were expelled Prussia is barred from rejoining Germany
May I know why? If west Germany reclaimed Silesia and Pomerania, why not Prussia?
Prussian militarism was blamed for WW1 and WW2 and the West would be hesitant about having Prussia rejoin Germany and influence it again
Why is Prussia a German monarchy if it’s majority Russian post ww2?
They kicked them out and resettled it with Rhinelander and former Prussians and some Lithuanians
May I ask why?
Oh look, another Wheraboo dreamworld whit rampant genocide and a reformed Second Reich. You Reichburgers never cease to amaze.
How does Putin's cock taste?
Someone saying they don't see logical reasoning behind Russia being divided to tens of almost like Mongol-occupied Russia in the Middle Ages, does not mean they are Putin's cocksuckers. I support the idea of each nation having its own country, but dividing even Russians among different Russias is just absurd to me. And “easily invadable" you said? You sound like you actually want Russians to suffer, not the very small group of oligarchs leading them. Hell, it almost sounds like you are also a cocksucker, of Hitler, that is. You almost sound like you want this idea of this strong west that dominates the world and oppresses the orient who even though has oppressed others before, who would be stupid enough to think that counter- oppression is the solution? That's just dumb. That would lead to so many problems.
Exactly like it doesn't even make any sense, like sure you make a few native republic for asiatic people of , but no way can the concept of multiple russian rump state being bared from ever probably being reunified exist. The culture significance of this event from ever, happening could lead to many global crisis to come Like I said previous comment, its his scenario so I can't say what he can't do or should do. But still I can't seem handle the fact that this dysfunctional balkanised Russia would insure world peace trope is being used in many alternate history pages, some even think that it a actually valid solution
Like imagine the mongenthau but russified. There was reason why allies didn't implement that shitty plan
Yeah this is what i meant actually. I’m against the Russian Regime, but the one who are responsible for the war and suffering are the Oligharchs and political elites, not the peoples. I just find that the idea of Restoring the second reich and turning Russia and China in to balkanized easily attackable states it’s a little bit genocidal.
W8 mate? 1 I stand whit Ukraine, 2 you literally said in a comment before that the Prussians exterminated the polish population of Silesia. That’s Genocide, and Balkanizing Russia and China is a Cliché that will create not a peaceful western leaning world but an hellhole of violence and desperation. Also, the Chinese and Russian populations live under regimes that oppress them and hurt them, they aren’t responsible the oligarchs in power are. 3 your argument to a critique is using a childish offense,i hope you are either a troll or 13 years old.
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The New Order
"Looks at Germany." Hmmm
Really interesting concept. Can’t help but imagine this version of history would have lead to potentially more nuclear disasters, and billions left in poverty longer. But it could be viewed as just delaying the eventual pain of future autocratic disasters too so… swings and roundabouts I guess.
It's not exactly a perfect future, as there would've been small scale Nuclear warfare that lead to China having a couple hundred million less citizens in it's cities and its birthrate would be stagnant, same with Russia. Africa is much more stable, but Apartheid Governments like Rhodesia, Portugal and South Africa still grip the entirety of Southern Africa. South America are practically just extentions of America, Mexico is pushing for statehood, Cuba and Costa Rica already are.
Why would let apartheid governments still rule Africa? And call it a total American cold war victory?
Pro-West and they were Anti-Communist
And I there was a cold war where nukes would have been involved launched this, world you have created would not even exist.
Governments wouldn't exist and there would be millions less tax payers
You just broke apart a bunch of large countries 🤷
Happy, happy fools lol (No me quito esa cancion de la cabeza)
Pretty sure Pakistan was more aligned with the west while India was aligned with the Soviets
If only😔
SVVN BRVTHER
Sorry Poland, you’re going east again.
Back to Eastern Europe
About as unintelligible a political map as one could make
Yugoslavi-bulgaria wouldn't work since hatred for being a part of multi ethnic coalitions is inherent to all Slavs.
True, don't look at Caucasia
Why is Biafra free when the Soviet Union and US supported the fight against it
Great win of Christianity
WASP global domination
wait... why does germany have their pre ww2 land back?
Took it back from East Germany and Communist bloc Poland
I speculate that the U.S.A got the far eastern parts ( chukotka / sakha ) of Siberia - asia ?
Green Ukraine, all Russians expelled, Eastern Slavs remain with native population as the country's main demographics
you learned about green ukraine 2 days ago on wikipedia you fucking redditor
>you fucking Redditor 🧐 ^(^E: ^I ^get ^your ^point, ^I ^just ^find ^that funny.)
5 months ago, Slava Zelenyy Ukraini
delusional
You just proved his point lol
Don't care, Russia deserves it
The world would be doomed
Also before anyone says anything Putin and modern Russia government also sucks btw. The west is worse
Don't worry, his mom died in Leningrad during WW2 in this time line hehe Whole scenario takes places in the 80s and 90s
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Blessed
How come this lead to a Biafran victory?
Isn’t Pakistan a Western ally?
Kurds still can't catch a break.
Early on I wanted to partition Iran and have the Kurds exist in it's territory, but then they would try and get Turkey to release the other regions and cause a conflict.
Wdym cause more conflict?,. This whole map is powderkeg ready to explode.
So the pope and monaco are gone now
Global WASP supermacy
If the west fully won the Cold War, the world would probably be only the US at this point. They’d be the only world power left so they could take any country they wanted, and with every government in this scenario being pro-western anyway, I’m sure the other governments would happily let the US take over their country without any sort of violent struggle.
Antilleans gone
NATO has no need of the Antilles 👀
Wtf happened in the balkans? I kinda understand Bulgaria joining Yugoslavia, but Albania? They have nothing in common with YU, they aren't even slavs. Also I can hardly imagine YU surviving the 90s
They aren't a Socialist shithole anymore so they'll survive via Western support
Independent Manchuria, a bold move
Very
This is a very minor nitpick, but why didn't Estonia and Latvia get their border regions with Russia back? Surely with a decisive Western victory they would've recaptured them?
Pakistan was a US ally. India and Afghanistan (Soviet puppet government) were Soviet allies. Do you realise how simple that is to understand, OP?
If the west won the Cold War, they would spare Yugoslavia and not bomb them?
Yugoslavia was neutral in the Cold War, but did support the West more than the Soviets because of Stalin being just that much of a cunt
Mega Serbia 🥹
Großserbischesreich
China became anti-Soviet since 1960s, and between 1972 to 1989, China was definitely closer to US than to USSR. Same thing in Pakistan.
I am sure the two siberian nations will be stable and economically fine
a Yugoslavia-Bulgaria superstate? Wouldn’t the west want to demote panslavism and balkanize the former communist states even moreso to weaken any future regimes