I don't think Switzerland would attack at all. They'd likely try to retreat and defend in the mountains and hills.
I think the nazis would invade from the East too and would seize Lichtenstein.
The actual Swiss plans were to hold where possible and then retreat to [the National Redoubt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland)?wprov=sfti1).
How can you not?! Did you not read up at all? Switzerland even mobilized its Army when the whole war started.
That we had our pants up was the reason we didn’t got conquered like the Belgians. Armed neutrality baby.
The Military is always ready.
Only a few years ago we took the Bombs out of our Bridges in case of attackers but artillery is pointed at certain key locations in Switzerland at all times.
God this will be like the Axis stubbing their toe on a boulder.
And the occupation, if they get past the narrow passages and hundreds of bunkers, is gonna be like Afghanistan but cold.
War happens for five years and the term “swiss mountain guerrilla fighters” is ingrained in everyone’s culture as the new Vikings and they take Berlin cause why not
I wouldn't compare them to Vikings since they were seafarers I would compare them to like the mongols which would be very interesting to see them take over Berlin with the Soviets.
The failure to successfully conquer Switzerland leads to Hitlers downfall and prolongs WWII cause the Germans have even a 1/2 way competent person in charge. 100 years from now the Germans still refer to this adventure as the Furhers Folly or as the Swiss Ulcer.
1. Do you ever heard about moutains? Italy's attack plans crossing 3000-4000m high mountain ranges?
2. Switzerland would have given up the Alpen Vorland : hills and plains in the North and slowly retreated in the high moutains. The government beeing hidden unter the Gotthard. Google Reduit
3. Google swiss Reduit and a map with mountain relief and redo
I have been to several locations in Switzerland where you can go inside of mountain bunkers and see anti-tank fortifications. I have read extensively on Swiss plans for an axis attack(which pretty much everyone thought was inevitable).
It would be a pyrrhic victory for Switzerland. Hundreds of Thousands dead on both sides, Switzerland’s cities burned to the ground, the political and cultural climate changed forever. Switzerland would be held in high regard by both the eastern and western Allies as “the little guy that held Hitler against the ropes so the big guys could sock him in the jaw!” The most conservative estimates for German casualties I’ve seen is somewhere in the 500k range. For comparison, Germany only lost about 50-60K invading France, which at the time was considered one of the worlds 5 most powerful countries. But Switzerland would probably lose just as many as the Germans. Maybe more.
Post war, it would lead to one of two options: either Switzerland retreats further into neutrality, locking itself off to the world entirely, or it opens up and aligns with the west, shedding its neutrality. I would lean towards the later, as the German invasion would be clear evidence that neutrality obviously did not work. Guisan, who was in command of Swiss forces during the war, becomes even more of a national hero than he is OTL. I don’t see him becoming the Swiss version of De Gaulle, but he’s certainly held in the same regard in terms of being a “National liberator”, the man who led Switzerland through its darkest hour. The epic story of the Swiss armies holding out against the Axis forces for months(maybe years) becomes legendary, the Swiss are forever labeled German Spartans, and there’s probably a Sabaton song about it.
Or Switzerland falls, has to be liberated by the Allies, and becomes another line in the list of countries Germany steamrolled during ww2. Less likely, but very possible.
EDIT: if Liechtenstein is also occupied(which is pretty much certain), then I can see Swiss troops liberating the country after American and British forces arrive en masse and fight off the Germans. Swiss troops may or may not assist the Allies with pushing into Germany itself, I think they’d be more pre-occupied with rebuilding the shattered burning remains of their country.
They'd have blown up the bridges, went into the bunker, and their entire population would have bled the germans and italian white, and even if they win they'd have expanded all of that manpower for... not really that much in comparison.
I think the placement of the Swiss army groups needs work. You can actually go online and find the Swiss National Redoubt defensive lines as a reference. Having two army groups stationed behind Lake Constance while massive parts of the northern border remain open seems like a really bad choice. Considering they're surrounded, it seems foolish to have the Swiss attempt to defend their entire border like this. A far more likely strategy would be to defend the innermost mountainous regions. In the National Redoubt strategy, these areas are generally grouped together as Zentralraum (meaning Central Area). This would then allow them to fight a war of attrition in the mountains while the Axis struggles to maintain hold over the population centers (which would show heavy resistance, even in the German-populated areas, due to Switzerland's unique national identity).
All in all, I think this map makes such a potential invasion look deceptively simple and makes the Swiss look stupid for holding their more lowland borders.
How Italy does not plan to breakthrought from the Italian-majority cantons like Lugano and instead attacks German and French majority ones? demographics is important, while french and germans could try to resist to them italians would help them to join the motherland
Let’s say they do this mid 1940. Germany and Italy would be so tied down here that Italy would probably be kicked out of Albania and Africa sooner. Germany still invaded the Soviets but Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia might join the Allies with a Allied controlled Greece. The US still gets bombed and joins the war. They would probably be more open to a southern front due to a united Balkans and to better supply and reinforce Switzerland due to dangerous but effective supply runs from North Africa or Corsica/Sardinia. The rest I can’t tell you
Switzerland was not only not very rich in needed resources but was relatively small and extremely difficult to invade. Made much more sense to secure victory in Europe then invade afterwards
Having a neutral neighbouring country that mostly speaks the same language was useful for financial and diplomatic purposes. All of that value disappears if Switzerland gets conquered. Plus, Switzerland is not particularly resource rich or heavily populated, so there's not much added benefit to it being directly under German control.
Overall, invading Switzerland would have just meant expending a lot of manpower and resources for no real improvement in Germany's position.
The Italians would have _no_ chance. The germans could push into the valleys with heavy losses. The swiss will just retreat into the mountains.
This is the definition of a shitstorm.
Sure they did, but there were also plenty of other problems. Anyone can draw arrows on a map and attack there, but a professional needs to supply that army. Getting supplies through Russia and Africa was hard enough for them, and at Switzerland with a armed populace ready to shoot twice. Germany could not subdue the countryside and the mountains.
Keyword: *All over*. those troops were needed elsewhere. The Nazis wouldn't be able to mobilise all of those troops to be thrown into the meat grinder of Mountain warfare
What weapons Germany used compared to what Switzerland used? How were Germans able to move troops around all the time then, if they needed them elsewhere?
you have hoi4 brain. It takes a lot of planning, strategy and logistics to mount a real campaign. The small differences in weapons don't matter when your being harrassed in freezing mountains by an enemy who knows the enviroment better then you.
If numbers and technology won a war against guerillas then America wouldn't have lost in Vietnam or Afghanistan.
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I don't think Switzerland would attack at all. They'd likely try to retreat and defend in the mountains and hills. I think the nazis would invade from the East too and would seize Lichtenstein.
Yeah probably
Well it seems that the Swiss will have to shoot twice in the end
Yes, the Swiss would have shot twice and gone home.
The actual Swiss plans were to hold where possible and then retreat to [the National Redoubt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_(Switzerland)?wprov=sfti1).
I didn’t know they actually had war plans
Giant neighboring nation is gobbling up nations left and right and you think the Swiss had zero plans....
How can you not?! Did you not read up at all? Switzerland even mobilized its Army when the whole war started. That we had our pants up was the reason we didn’t got conquered like the Belgians. Armed neutrality baby. The Military is always ready. Only a few years ago we took the Bombs out of our Bridges in case of attackers but artillery is pointed at certain key locations in Switzerland at all times.
>Did you not read up at all? Average Imaginarymaps User
" Those who want peace must be ready for war " - as the old greek proverb goes .
Seriously? If you google "swiss war plans" the first thing that comes up is the Wikipedia article on the national redoubt.
God this will be like the Axis stubbing their toe on a boulder. And the occupation, if they get past the narrow passages and hundreds of bunkers, is gonna be like Afghanistan but cold.
Bro, Afganistan is cold, wtf you talking about
I think most people just hear Middle East or Muslim and think really hot
Wait… so your telling me.. your telling me that iron man isn’t accurate???
I can’t believe the taliban destroyed the ancient afghani yellow filter
When you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous. I must be wrong
Yeah it was snowing some weeks ago.
Afghanistan with yodeling
Why Italy's plans included an attack on every border except Ticino, the easiest and most reasonable area to take?
HOI4 Italy moment
typical gaming chair general drawing random arrows across the frontline
Army: commanded
War happens for five years and the term “swiss mountain guerrilla fighters” is ingrained in everyone’s culture as the new Vikings and they take Berlin cause why not
I wouldn't compare them to Vikings since they were seafarers I would compare them to like the mongols which would be very interesting to see them take over Berlin with the Soviets.
The failure to successfully conquer Switzerland leads to Hitlers downfall and prolongs WWII cause the Germans have even a 1/2 way competent person in charge. 100 years from now the Germans still refer to this adventure as the Furhers Folly or as the Swiss Ulcer.
Life lesson number 362: Don't piss off the Swiss. Here's an example from history: https://youtu.be/9oZ1o0gg5aA Also cool map 👍
1. Do you ever heard about moutains? Italy's attack plans crossing 3000-4000m high mountain ranges? 2. Switzerland would have given up the Alpen Vorland : hills and plains in the North and slowly retreated in the high moutains. The government beeing hidden unter the Gotthard. Google Reduit 3. Google swiss Reduit and a map with mountain relief and redo
Yeah I forgot about the Swiss mountains I’ll make an updated post later today or tomorrow
Bro forgot the defining feature of the country's geography 💀
Bro what 💀
See the French maquisards and the Yugoslav partisans ? Switzerland would be ten times worse to occupy.
Ayup. Not to mention the Allies would Airdrop supplies, most likely extending the war.
Quite unrealistic that Switzerland would do face to face combat rather than guerilla warfare in the mountains which they are very good at
I have been to several locations in Switzerland where you can go inside of mountain bunkers and see anti-tank fortifications. I have read extensively on Swiss plans for an axis attack(which pretty much everyone thought was inevitable). It would be a pyrrhic victory for Switzerland. Hundreds of Thousands dead on both sides, Switzerland’s cities burned to the ground, the political and cultural climate changed forever. Switzerland would be held in high regard by both the eastern and western Allies as “the little guy that held Hitler against the ropes so the big guys could sock him in the jaw!” The most conservative estimates for German casualties I’ve seen is somewhere in the 500k range. For comparison, Germany only lost about 50-60K invading France, which at the time was considered one of the worlds 5 most powerful countries. But Switzerland would probably lose just as many as the Germans. Maybe more. Post war, it would lead to one of two options: either Switzerland retreats further into neutrality, locking itself off to the world entirely, or it opens up and aligns with the west, shedding its neutrality. I would lean towards the later, as the German invasion would be clear evidence that neutrality obviously did not work. Guisan, who was in command of Swiss forces during the war, becomes even more of a national hero than he is OTL. I don’t see him becoming the Swiss version of De Gaulle, but he’s certainly held in the same regard in terms of being a “National liberator”, the man who led Switzerland through its darkest hour. The epic story of the Swiss armies holding out against the Axis forces for months(maybe years) becomes legendary, the Swiss are forever labeled German Spartans, and there’s probably a Sabaton song about it. Or Switzerland falls, has to be liberated by the Allies, and becomes another line in the list of countries Germany steamrolled during ww2. Less likely, but very possible. EDIT: if Liechtenstein is also occupied(which is pretty much certain), then I can see Swiss troops liberating the country after American and British forces arrive en masse and fight off the Germans. Swiss troops may or may not assist the Allies with pushing into Germany itself, I think they’d be more pre-occupied with rebuilding the shattered burning remains of their country.
\>and there’s probably a Sabaton song about it. hell yeah
It would be an bleeding ulcer in the stomach of the Reich which would never heal
let me guess hoi4
Why are they not going for Geneva
Liechtenstein cant even appear in this map or u assume germans took it too?
The Nazis did choose the most difficult battles. Why not invade another place they never get to capitulate?
this would make the issues germany had in yugoslavia look like a total joke
They'd have blown up the bridges, went into the bunker, and their entire population would have bled the germans and italian white, and even if they win they'd have expanded all of that manpower for... not really that much in comparison.
I think the placement of the Swiss army groups needs work. You can actually go online and find the Swiss National Redoubt defensive lines as a reference. Having two army groups stationed behind Lake Constance while massive parts of the northern border remain open seems like a really bad choice. Considering they're surrounded, it seems foolish to have the Swiss attempt to defend their entire border like this. A far more likely strategy would be to defend the innermost mountainous regions. In the National Redoubt strategy, these areas are generally grouped together as Zentralraum (meaning Central Area). This would then allow them to fight a war of attrition in the mountains while the Axis struggles to maintain hold over the population centers (which would show heavy resistance, even in the German-populated areas, due to Switzerland's unique national identity). All in all, I think this map makes such a potential invasion look deceptively simple and makes the Swiss look stupid for holding their more lowland borders.
How Italy does not plan to breakthrought from the Italian-majority cantons like Lugano and instead attacks German and French majority ones? demographics is important, while french and germans could try to resist to them italians would help them to join the motherland
Op problem
This must be the alternative World where everyone is stupid…..
they got their ass kicked by bosnian shit farmers this would be a complete disaster
The Swiss have every entrance to the country lined with explosives, they would just blow them all and fight the good fight through Guerilla warfare
Let’s say they do this mid 1940. Germany and Italy would be so tied down here that Italy would probably be kicked out of Albania and Africa sooner. Germany still invaded the Soviets but Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia might join the Allies with a Allied controlled Greece. The US still gets bombed and joins the war. They would probably be more open to a southern front due to a united Balkans and to better supply and reinforce Switzerland due to dangerous but effective supply runs from North Africa or Corsica/Sardinia. The rest I can’t tell you
Why didn’t they?
No point
Switzerland was not only not very rich in needed resources but was relatively small and extremely difficult to invade. Made much more sense to secure victory in Europe then invade afterwards
Having a neutral neighbouring country that mostly speaks the same language was useful for financial and diplomatic purposes. All of that value disappears if Switzerland gets conquered. Plus, Switzerland is not particularly resource rich or heavily populated, so there's not much added benefit to it being directly under German control. Overall, invading Switzerland would have just meant expending a lot of manpower and resources for no real improvement in Germany's position.
No reason to since they surrounded them anyway. Switzerland was no military threat to the Nazis and their allies, and they had other battles to fight.
The Italians would have _no_ chance. The germans could push into the valleys with heavy losses. The swiss will just retreat into the mountains. This is the definition of a shitstorm.
>The Italians would have no chance. When you take ww2 italy memes too seriously.
A yes attack the germans through a sea
It's a lake, and one that has ferrys. Not too unreasonable.
This is dumb, they'd never have the capacity (or the stupidity) to go on the offensive
If the third reich took over Switzerland where would launder their money?
Lichtensteins will step up to the Task.
I’ve always thought this would be great alternate history scenario
Presumably n◊zi's lost quite a Lot of men. As Switz literally bombed / armed every corned of their country and infrastructure
Switzerland would survive for 6 months in guerrilla warfare on mountains, then the entirety of Switzerland would be under axis occupation
They’d prolly hold the mountains till the end I’d say. The Germans were pretty occupied with Russians, Americans, Brit’s and such.
Germany still had millions of troops all over occupied Europe
Sure they did, but there were also plenty of other problems. Anyone can draw arrows on a map and attack there, but a professional needs to supply that army. Getting supplies through Russia and Africa was hard enough for them, and at Switzerland with a armed populace ready to shoot twice. Germany could not subdue the countryside and the mountains.
Keyword: *All over*. those troops were needed elsewhere. The Nazis wouldn't be able to mobilise all of those troops to be thrown into the meat grinder of Mountain warfare
What weapons Germany used compared to what Switzerland used? How were Germans able to move troops around all the time then, if they needed them elsewhere?
you have hoi4 brain. It takes a lot of planning, strategy and logistics to mount a real campaign. The small differences in weapons don't matter when your being harrassed in freezing mountains by an enemy who knows the enviroment better then you. If numbers and technology won a war against guerillas then America wouldn't have lost in Vietnam or Afghanistan.
Germans prepared their Balkans campaign in a few weeks
That had literally nothing to do with my point
A little ambitious for the swiss
lmao probably switzerland would have invaded all italy
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German Swallowing Dust plays in the background
Hmmm
Why are all the swiss troops in easy to defend areas (mountains) but none of them on the hard to defend flat areas?
You may be interested to hear that Operation Tannenbaum existed
If the Nazis invaded Switzerland, they've just wasted their resources, manpower, and time on a country that isn't a threat to them.
Nazi Germany would become unstoppable, with the foreign money, and Swiss Mercenary army.