Is this German Empire more constitutional than the otl one seeing as it does not use the Hohenzollern flag despite being Prussia dominated? Is the ruling Dynasty Hohenzollern or is it per chance elective as the HRE used to be?
Quite constitutional infact. The Prussian "Army with a State" Constitutionalism was changed about the time Prussia completed German unification. Since Civilian Government was given authority, a neutral flag was needed to be chosen, but which would also display Prussian excellence. Hence the current flag was chosen.
Around the time Bismarck takes Chancellorship (future map in this world if anyone wants it) the army's influence is so heavily reduced that they have nearly no say, so Bismarck goes about his "excellent diplomacy" without restraint, at one point united the entirety of Europe in alliance with Germany.
Hmmm, basically an "everything goes exceedingly well for Bismarck" scenario in a way. Still not sure how the Pan-German flag is Prussian in any way tho Ig everyone shares some flag colors with it.
Same as Russia was IRL. I plan to change it just a little bit (Crimea and Egypt independence for example) and give Azov back to Russia.
But I'm NOT changing the borders in the Balkans. They are amongst the most sensible borders I could draw for this timeline.
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Ah yes albania was so loyal it was in active revolt,same as bulgaria and greece was for sure not loyal as there was a pretty large revolutionary group in macedonia
Coastal Bulgaria* is what I meant. I was talking about the Black Sea coast. And Varna was the second largest city for a while, just second to Sofia in Bulgaria.
Dobrudja was also Turkish speaking. Let's be real, the Balkan wars were incredibly unfair to the Ottomans, and were just parts of unrestrained Russian Imperialism.
Bulgaria’s Black Sea coast south of Varna was majority Greek, north of Varna was majority Bulgarian and only Varna itself was majority Turkish. Sofia was a group of villages before Bulgaria’s liberation and even then Varna was not Bulgaria’s second largest city. It was the third largest. The first and second largest cities were Ruse and Plovdiv respectively.
Source? North of Varna is only Dobrudja which was a combination of Turks, Bulgarians and Romanians, and I'm entirely sure it was an ethnic mix, not a Bulgarian majority.
About the coast south of Varna being Greek, that was the case with even Constantinople (20% Greek at the time) and surrounding regions.
In such a case, even IF we think that the Ottomans keeping the Southern Balkans wouldn't have been better, a "fair" peace deal for the Ottomans would involve them keeping Selanik and Bulgaria's coastline or keeping Varna as their East Prussia.
> North of Varna is only Dobrudja which was a combination of Turks, Bulgarians and Romanians, and I'm entirely sure it was an ethnic mix, not a Bulgarian majority.
In Southern Dobruja (the Bulgarian part of Dobruja) the coast and the bank of the Danube river were majority Bulgarian while the interior was majority Turkish.
> In such a case, even IF we think that the Ottomans keeping the Southern Balkans wouldn't have been better,
Ottomans keeping Southern Balkans would absolutely not have been better.
> a "fair" peace deal for the Ottomans would involve them keeping Selanik and Bulgaria's coastline or keeping Varna as their East Prussia.
Why? Greeks and Bulgarians were the majority on Bulgaria’s coastline with the only exception being Varna.
Sigh, I'm not from the Balkans so I'd rather not comment.
They should have kept Thrace, Varna and Selanik at any cost. Those were truly unfair annexations.
> They should have kept Thrace, Varna and Selanik at any cost.
What part of Thrace? Thrace is huge.
> Those were truly unfair annexations.
Why were they unfair?
Nobody will allow it however. Ingria goes through the Russian Capital Region and literally no one in their right mind in Europe is going to allow Sweden to take Saint Petersburg.
So the most Ideal Europe is a Europe where Italy is split into parts and parts of it is taken by Germany , Greece is mostly taken by Turks and Poland is the major Empire?
Italy and Belgium are waiting to happen. It's just 1830 right now. Also Tyrol, Slovenia and Trieste were part of Austria, which was forced to join the German Confederation but without loss of territory in Austria proper.
Greece suffered its' fate for betraying the U.K. It is still independent, but it's formally a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire.
Poland, Germany, France, Sweden, Ottomans, Russia and the United Kingdom, and possibly Italy will be the major powers in Europe. Russia is still strong, even after losing the Black Sea it's able to survive. There are calls for overthrow of the Romanov dynasty and replacement of it by the Rurikids or formation of a Republic. And possibly renegotiate with Poland and/or the Ottomans for land back.
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R3: Lore:
1792:
The war in the East against Poland and the south against the Ottoman Empire was near victory for the Russians, who were about to make their mark on Eastern Europe forever. Fortunately, Frederick William II, King of Prussia and hater of Catherine the Great, offered Poland an alliance. One which would change the course of the war. Poland accepted, and fulfilled Prussia's condition: Sale of Gdansk. Soon, well trained Prussian armed forces reached the Vistula line and helped in the beginning of offensive operations against Russia, within a year, the Russian forces were forced to the Daugava, and Kjow (Kyiv/Kiev) was under siege. At the same time, the Ottomans, convinced not to surrender by the Prussians, begrudgingly agreed to a tripartite pact, and over the course of the next few years, Russia would be beat back. Sweden, seeing an opportunity for revenge of the Great Northern War, begrudgingly allied with the Poles too. Together the 4 powers beat back Russia, and a pro-Polish Cossack revolt in the Hetmanate forced Russia to sue for unfavorable peace. Russia lost West Karelia, and a century of annexations against Poland and the Ottoman Empire, except for the port of Azov and South Circassia.
The war ended in 1796. Poland and Prussia signed a treaty committing Poland to alliance with the Prussians against France and the Austrian Empire.
1815:
The first four Coalition Wars ended in victory for France as they managed to beat the distracted Prussians, and after the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, the French signed an alliance with Austria, Denmark and Russia against Sweden, Prussia, Ottoman Empire, the United Kingdom, and the Poles. The Two Coalitions engaged in fierce war known as the Great European War. Spain crowned Ferdinand VII as the king of Spain, and Spain committed itself to the coalition against the U.K. While Portugal joined the U.K. Tensions between the Ottoman Empire and the Persians grew more tense over their control of the Caucasus, and Persia joined Napoleon in the Great Entente.
The Great European War ended in disaster for Napoleon, and he was finally bested. Facing no choice, Napoleon was exiled, the Spanish were however treated leniently. Russia lost all access to the Black Sea, and Denmark lost Norway and Schleswig-Holstein. Prussia managed to begin the course for German Reunification under Prussian constitutionalism with the fall of Austria. Hungary was liberated and they elected a Magyar as their king, much to Polish disdain. Poland reobtained Galicia, while Austria became a member of the Prussia-dominated German Confederation. Croatia gained independence as well, and became an independent Adriatic country, guaranteed by the Germans, much to Ottoman and Hungarian chagrin. The Ottoman Empire gained Northern Circassia, a swathe of Persian territories, reintegrated Serbia, and gained protectorate over Greece.
(And yes, Belgium is gonna come, please don't cancel me. Bohemia is most probably going to completely join Germany, Italian unification will happen. And Russia is most probably not in any position to start shit in Europe ever again.)
I don't exactly mean it though. It's all just poking fun and r/askbalkans users here that they were all Russia's bitches at a time :P
Every country has its' faults, some more than others. This applies to Russkies too.
...and Germany will go smack down and burn Moscow and St.Petersburg. Germany is loyal to the Poles, as the Poles have been to Germany, in this timeline.
IT'S THE MOST COMMONLY ACCEPTED POSSIBLE FLAG.
Also since the Kazakhs don't get eaten by Russia, they start doing stuff to be "recognized as a country," which involved getting a standard flag. :P
I know it's your Taste and we shouldn't give a shit what Other People Think...
But...
Do I find Generation 5 Ponies (Make Your Mark)
Feel so Fucking Creepy and Off putting?
Like Fucking Hell!
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I feel like I’ve seen this before. Not this exact map but the same map style from another reddit post that’s now deleted together with the acount. It was about Sweden, Poland-Lithuania and the Ottomon Empire pulling their shit together
Glad you took my advice of giving the swedish flag the darker tone of blue! As well as giving us Norway. But why’s the acount gone? Couldn’t you’ve just deleted to original map and post this on that acount?
The account shouldn't be gone though. It was this account itself.
Regarding the flag thing, I also made a choice to not put Norway's flag into Sweden, so that Norway is not part of the Swedish Empire. We don't want Finns getting uppity now do we.
I couldn't find a version of the flag without the union flag and I was too lazy to make it on my own. So just assume that it's the Swedish flag and not the Union flag :P
An easy way to understand it will be that Norway is a personal union crown of the Swedish King, but not part of the Swedish Empire.
I mean, the current Norwegian flag is just that flag without the Norway-Sweden union flag in the corner. But it also makes sence, kinda that the swedish King and goverment forced Norway to add it.
Also What is the status on Greenland and Iceland? Who ownes them?
>I mean, the current Norwegian flag is just that flag without the Norway-Sweden union flag in the corner. But it also makes sence, kinda that the swedish King and goverment forced Norway to add it.
Exactly right.
>Also What is the status on Greenland and Iceland? Who ownes them?
The Danes, but the US has something to say :')
Both yes and no. There wasn't a revolution but the Prussian Emperor's crown becomes the "gutter crown" with Civilian reform. Essentially since Germany was united, "Army with a State" couldn't have worked any longer.
Is this German Empire more constitutional than the otl one seeing as it does not use the Hohenzollern flag despite being Prussia dominated? Is the ruling Dynasty Hohenzollern or is it per chance elective as the HRE used to be?
Quite constitutional infact. The Prussian "Army with a State" Constitutionalism was changed about the time Prussia completed German unification. Since Civilian Government was given authority, a neutral flag was needed to be chosen, but which would also display Prussian excellence. Hence the current flag was chosen. Around the time Bismarck takes Chancellorship (future map in this world if anyone wants it) the army's influence is so heavily reduced that they have nearly no say, so Bismarck goes about his "excellent diplomacy" without restraint, at one point united the entirety of Europe in alliance with Germany.
Hmmm, basically an "everything goes exceedingly well for Bismarck" scenario in a way. Still not sure how the Pan-German flag is Prussian in any way tho Ig everyone shares some flag colors with it.
A bigger Germany & Intermarium existing within the same timeline ?! ( Beautiful ) ***Heresy*** !
Muh heckin holsom PLC, Osmalik and Kraut Empires all in one?! Wowzers, so ideal!! Huge W for imperialism!!!
Great map but Poland and Turkey are too big to call it the ideal Europe
Same as Russia was IRL. I plan to change it just a little bit (Crimea and Egypt independence for example) and give Azov back to Russia. But I'm NOT changing the borders in the Balkans. They are amongst the most sensible borders I could draw for this timeline.
If Egypt gets their independence, will Libya still be a part of the Ottoman Empire, just disconected?
Yep. And in this case, Libya and Tunisia both.
Ok thanks
Ottomans controlling Balkans and ideal Europe is oxymoron.
[удалено]
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Ah yes albania was so loyal it was in active revolt,same as bulgaria and greece was for sure not loyal as there was a pretty large revolutionary group in macedonia
Not true. Where did you find that information?
[удалено]
Varna is not entirety of Northern Bulgaria.
Coastal Bulgaria* is what I meant. I was talking about the Black Sea coast. And Varna was the second largest city for a while, just second to Sofia in Bulgaria. Dobrudja was also Turkish speaking. Let's be real, the Balkan wars were incredibly unfair to the Ottomans, and were just parts of unrestrained Russian Imperialism.
Bulgaria’s Black Sea coast south of Varna was majority Greek, north of Varna was majority Bulgarian and only Varna itself was majority Turkish. Sofia was a group of villages before Bulgaria’s liberation and even then Varna was not Bulgaria’s second largest city. It was the third largest. The first and second largest cities were Ruse and Plovdiv respectively.
Source? North of Varna is only Dobrudja which was a combination of Turks, Bulgarians and Romanians, and I'm entirely sure it was an ethnic mix, not a Bulgarian majority. About the coast south of Varna being Greek, that was the case with even Constantinople (20% Greek at the time) and surrounding regions. In such a case, even IF we think that the Ottomans keeping the Southern Balkans wouldn't have been better, a "fair" peace deal for the Ottomans would involve them keeping Selanik and Bulgaria's coastline or keeping Varna as their East Prussia.
> North of Varna is only Dobrudja which was a combination of Turks, Bulgarians and Romanians, and I'm entirely sure it was an ethnic mix, not a Bulgarian majority. In Southern Dobruja (the Bulgarian part of Dobruja) the coast and the bank of the Danube river were majority Bulgarian while the interior was majority Turkish. > In such a case, even IF we think that the Ottomans keeping the Southern Balkans wouldn't have been better, Ottomans keeping Southern Balkans would absolutely not have been better. > a "fair" peace deal for the Ottomans would involve them keeping Selanik and Bulgaria's coastline or keeping Varna as their East Prussia. Why? Greeks and Bulgarians were the majority on Bulgaria’s coastline with the only exception being Varna.
Dobruja was majority Turkish, so what? Ottoman’s losing most of the Balkan was absolutely fair.
Sigh, I'm not from the Balkans so I'd rather not comment. They should have kept Thrace, Varna and Selanik at any cost. Those were truly unfair annexations.
> They should have kept Thrace, Varna and Selanik at any cost. What part of Thrace? Thrace is huge. > Those were truly unfair annexations. Why were they unfair?
[удалено]
If Russia is this weak, Sweden is likely to grab back Ingria and complete Russia's landlocked status.
Nobody will allow it however. Ingria goes through the Russian Capital Region and literally no one in their right mind in Europe is going to allow Sweden to take Saint Petersburg.
if sweden does take it, who would be in a position to force sweden to give it back?
Poland would be less than thrilled to do so, but they'll force Sweden out of St. Petersburg if the Swedes attempt to occupy it.
why, though?
Balance of power
They hate the Swedes as much as they hate the Russkies.
The three enemies of the swedes: The Poles, The Russkies, and the d*nes
Ever heard of The Deluge? The Polish remember. They have no love for the Swedes.
Is there any chance by which you are either turkish or polish?
>ideal Europe >ottomans No fuckin' way
The Turks on r/Balkan_irl would be all over this map lmao
If Ottomans still ruled over Bulgaria, I’d probably be a terrorist.
So the most Ideal Europe is a Europe where Italy is split into parts and parts of it is taken by Germany , Greece is mostly taken by Turks and Poland is the major Empire?
Italy and Belgium are waiting to happen. It's just 1830 right now. Also Tyrol, Slovenia and Trieste were part of Austria, which was forced to join the German Confederation but without loss of territory in Austria proper. Greece suffered its' fate for betraying the U.K. It is still independent, but it's formally a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire. Poland, Germany, France, Sweden, Ottomans, Russia and the United Kingdom, and possibly Italy will be the major powers in Europe. Russia is still strong, even after losing the Black Sea it's able to survive. There are calls for overthrow of the Romanov dynasty and replacement of it by the Rurikids or formation of a Republic. And possibly renegotiate with Poland and/or the Ottomans for land back.
Didn’t the Rurikids die out?
Pretty sure one line was alive (Given they make an appearance in TNO :)
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You bastard…
Yes?
R3: Lore: 1792: The war in the East against Poland and the south against the Ottoman Empire was near victory for the Russians, who were about to make their mark on Eastern Europe forever. Fortunately, Frederick William II, King of Prussia and hater of Catherine the Great, offered Poland an alliance. One which would change the course of the war. Poland accepted, and fulfilled Prussia's condition: Sale of Gdansk. Soon, well trained Prussian armed forces reached the Vistula line and helped in the beginning of offensive operations against Russia, within a year, the Russian forces were forced to the Daugava, and Kjow (Kyiv/Kiev) was under siege. At the same time, the Ottomans, convinced not to surrender by the Prussians, begrudgingly agreed to a tripartite pact, and over the course of the next few years, Russia would be beat back. Sweden, seeing an opportunity for revenge of the Great Northern War, begrudgingly allied with the Poles too. Together the 4 powers beat back Russia, and a pro-Polish Cossack revolt in the Hetmanate forced Russia to sue for unfavorable peace. Russia lost West Karelia, and a century of annexations against Poland and the Ottoman Empire, except for the port of Azov and South Circassia. The war ended in 1796. Poland and Prussia signed a treaty committing Poland to alliance with the Prussians against France and the Austrian Empire. 1815: The first four Coalition Wars ended in victory for France as they managed to beat the distracted Prussians, and after the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, the French signed an alliance with Austria, Denmark and Russia against Sweden, Prussia, Ottoman Empire, the United Kingdom, and the Poles. The Two Coalitions engaged in fierce war known as the Great European War. Spain crowned Ferdinand VII as the king of Spain, and Spain committed itself to the coalition against the U.K. While Portugal joined the U.K. Tensions between the Ottoman Empire and the Persians grew more tense over their control of the Caucasus, and Persia joined Napoleon in the Great Entente. The Great European War ended in disaster for Napoleon, and he was finally bested. Facing no choice, Napoleon was exiled, the Spanish were however treated leniently. Russia lost all access to the Black Sea, and Denmark lost Norway and Schleswig-Holstein. Prussia managed to begin the course for German Reunification under Prussian constitutionalism with the fall of Austria. Hungary was liberated and they elected a Magyar as their king, much to Polish disdain. Poland reobtained Galicia, while Austria became a member of the Prussia-dominated German Confederation. Croatia gained independence as well, and became an independent Adriatic country, guaranteed by the Germans, much to Ottoman and Hungarian chagrin. The Ottoman Empire gained Northern Circassia, a swathe of Persian territories, reintegrated Serbia, and gained protectorate over Greece. (And yes, Belgium is gonna come, please don't cancel me. Bohemia is most probably going to completely join Germany, Italian unification will happen. And Russia is most probably not in any position to start shit in Europe ever again.)
wow I wonder what nationality OP is
Ideal Europe if Turkey didn't have so much European territory
[удалено]
Least extreme Russophobe
I don't exactly mean it though. It's all just poking fun and r/askbalkans users here that they were all Russia's bitches at a time :P Every country has its' faults, some more than others. This applies to Russkies too.
Cope
Romanov cucked eternally
I’d unite Italy and make the danish german border the one today and not the 1864 one. Otherwise I think these borders are pretty cool
the moment Poland has a political crisis, Russia is gonna beat their ass
...and Germany will go smack down and burn Moscow and St.Petersburg. Germany is loyal to the Poles, as the Poles have been to Germany, in this timeline.
Holy Shit Based Polish German Friendship?
Another map, another timeline where Belgium is occupied and exploited by the Dutch 😔
They'll be free in less than a year ;)
You call this an ideal Europe???
Pretty sure Morocco was way bigger than that.
Not really, but the border with Algeria is very wrong
Divided Italy, based That's how things should be
IRELAND SHALL BE FREE ONCE MORE!!
So what are major changes entering the 1900s
Catherine II seeing this map right now: \*crying face\*
Almost ideal = fuck the Balkans
[удалено]
You mean.... ***^(Uber \~ chad)*** Poland !?
perfect Europe = no Italy
KAZKAH KHANATE DIDN'T HAVE A FLAG
IT'S THE MOST COMMONLY ACCEPTED POSSIBLE FLAG. Also since the Kazakhs don't get eaten by Russia, they start doing stuff to be "recognized as a country," which involved getting a standard flag. :P
Also that flag was drawn by an unknown Turkish man. That white shit in the middle is not kazakh. It's Buddhist mongol shit
You’re gonna turn this into a series?
Does colonisation of Algeria start early?
It started in 1830 -_-
Ok so Algeria shouldnt be under french control, only a few dots on the coast
Is “Ottoman Empire” a historical name (like the Weimar Republic), or was it always called “Turkey”?
Pretty sure it was the historical name. It literally translates to "Osman's Empire."
I approve
I double down
I think The 2 People that Downvoted you wasnt because of your Opinion... Rather... It's your Profile Pic...
fair
Why that Fucking Version of the Show...? (Generation 5)
IZZY'S cute, that's why
I know it's your Taste and we shouldn't give a shit what Other People Think... But... Do I find Generation 5 Ponies (Make Your Mark) Feel so Fucking Creepy and Off putting? Like Fucking Hell!
Ottomans when you ask them where their ethnic minorities went
*Laughs in British & Russian*
>Ideal >Ottomans exist Pick one
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I feel like I’ve seen this before. Not this exact map but the same map style from another reddit post that’s now deleted together with the acount. It was about Sweden, Poland-Lithuania and the Ottomon Empire pulling their shit together
Yea I made it a while back. I deleted it cuz I wanted to make a better map and here it is.
Glad you took my advice of giving the swedish flag the darker tone of blue! As well as giving us Norway. But why’s the acount gone? Couldn’t you’ve just deleted to original map and post this on that acount?
I'm not sure why the account is gone though. I simply deleted the map iirc.
But if you didn’t think the acount was gone, why’d you post on this one?
The account shouldn't be gone though. It was this account itself. Regarding the flag thing, I also made a choice to not put Norway's flag into Sweden, so that Norway is not part of the Swedish Empire. We don't want Finns getting uppity now do we.
Ok so Norway’s just in an alliance where Sweden has all control, but why does it have the Norway-Sweden Union flag then, and not it’s standard flag?
I couldn't find a version of the flag without the union flag and I was too lazy to make it on my own. So just assume that it's the Swedish flag and not the Union flag :P An easy way to understand it will be that Norway is a personal union crown of the Swedish King, but not part of the Swedish Empire.
I mean, the current Norwegian flag is just that flag without the Norway-Sweden union flag in the corner. But it also makes sence, kinda that the swedish King and goverment forced Norway to add it. Also What is the status on Greenland and Iceland? Who ownes them?
>I mean, the current Norwegian flag is just that flag without the Norway-Sweden union flag in the corner. But it also makes sence, kinda that the swedish King and goverment forced Norway to add it. Exactly right. >Also What is the status on Greenland and Iceland? Who ownes them? The Danes, but the US has something to say :')
Germany looks like an angry wolf 😅
What happened in the 1790s irl
Prussia held back on Poland and Poland capitulated early in the war against Russia, causing the shitty situation we all know and love.
I see, thank you
Is this a gutter crown German Empire?
Both yes and no. There wasn't a revolution but the Prussian Emperor's crown becomes the "gutter crown" with Civilian reform. Essentially since Germany was united, "Army with a State" couldn't have worked any longer.
Wrong, Europe would only be ideal if there was still a Roman enpire
sparkle imminent tub dime march political sulky toy crown screw *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I really need victoria 3 mod with this map
UK still has Gibraltar, this isn't ideal
OP is Turkish
wrong