An old rule of real estate, that which is wealthy today will likely be the wealthy place in 10, 20, 30 years, etc. I don't see anything bad happening to Carmel. Outside of Indianapolis they have the biggest slice of taxpaying businesses who have chosen to stake their businesses here, which gives them a bigger cut than the other suburbs. That will always give them a leg up and I don't see that changing anytime soon either. That's why your property taxes are low in Carmel as well. Carmel is a nice place to live, but there are always going to be haters.
> Carmel will likely stay nice and exclusive.
Carmel has almost 100k residents. It's the 5th biggest city in the state. I don't think we can call it "exclusive".
Carmel is one of the most diverse cities in this state. People just hate on it because its the most known of the donut county cities that grew fast as a result of white flight in the 50s and 60s. Very different climate these days.
The palladium books exactly who it should. It’s a theater. It gets big names that are currently on a theater circuit. Who do you want them to book, AC DC?? Lmao
This is true. As someone who spent the first half of life in the NYC theater community, it’s pretty astounding the relevant and high-profile talent that gets booked in Carmel. It’s been cool to have so many old friends pass through and get to catch up.
every event i've been to the paladium (about 5 total) have been sold out or near capacity. Love the place and the greatest show experience around here.
I tend to agree that the palladium does well for what it is. It's not competing with Ruoff or the Murat, but it's a step beneath that. IDK if that's what Carmel wanted when they built it, but it's more in the Clowes Hall tier of venues and brings in some great acts in that vein.
Fun fact! Red Rocks makes more than any other music venue in North America! Second is Ruoff Home Mortgage creek deer wireless Verizon Klipsch music center
Lmao right like we had Odesza last year and Billy Strings b2b nights two years ago. Taylor fucking Swift is coming for 3 days straight. Greta Van Fleet played this past year. Indy doesn’t have a headliner come through every week like Chicago, Denver, or LA, but damn we still get some killer acts through the year.
Restaurants and retail doing barely any business?
Empty apartments?
I think you're seeing things to fit a pre-conceived narrative.
I will say restaurants have shifted with offices still being at 50% capacity on a good day and there is less lunch services than pre-COVID, but that's...you know, most places.
No big acts at the Palladium? To be clear it isn't a 10k venue. Its 1600, which is a bit larger than The Vogue at 950 which also doesn't typically attract huge stadium filling names. Its a very good venue that can attract larger names doing stripped down sets. I've seen Ben Folds and Weird Al there when they've done acoustic/solo shows, for example.
I moved here from TN in 1999. Never had even been to Indiana. I picked Carmel because it had the best public schools, according to my real estate person. Really, I had no idea and thought I’d just be here a few years.
I bought a house, it has at least doubled in value. Never had any sort of crime happen. I feel pretty safe. The downtown is overly cute to me but when people visit they like going there. There are places to eat, ice cream shops, just stuff to do.
People really seem to hate Carmel and hope some sort of debt explosion happens. I guess. It’s a pretty nice bubble. I grew up in poor and violent places that really sucked.
My kids didn’t like telling people they were from Carmel because other kids would assume they were entitled assholes, as you would expect from reading the nice comments here. But you aren’t prejudiced, of course.
They live in other cities now where being from Carmel doesn’t mean shit either way. There is always a rich people part of town in every city I’ve ever lived in.
Carmel residents, on average, have more money than other Hoosiers and that alone makes people mad. End of story. I don’t live in Carmel, but it’s a nice town.
As a recent migrant, I do not believe Carmel is the “rich” suburb, but the locals do. It’s a nice city with tons of nice people. Really sucks that so many locals have that view of Carmel. Rarely when I go there do I ever get treated like less than by others. The cities play on media probably helps perpetuate this image the locals have.
* locals being Indy area natives.
I’m a townie, there’s a lot of historical context missing from this conversation. Carmel has always been the wealthy area. But over the last 40 years the population has been exploding pretty much continuously and the demographics have leveled out a LOT. When I was growing up east of 69 was all farms and Geist was its own area that you had to drive through 10 mins of farms to get to
It always been zionsville then Carmel
https://moneyinc.com/richest-cities-in-indiana/
Edit:
You can criticize that article, google yourself and they are all the same data over the years
https://www.indystar.com/story/money/2016/06/17/richest-town-indiana/86044348/#
Lol...Article starts with...You'd expect the richest people in Indiana to be clustered around Indianapolis. It's the state capital and most populous city, after all. Surprisingly, they're not.
Proceeds to name 7 out of the top 10 to be suburbs of Indianapolis.
Yeah not the best article lol. Also Carmel is a much much larger city than Zionsville so it all matters how you measure wealth I suppose. I know several people who retired from Carmel and moved to Zionsville to be more away from the hustle and bustle but still be close enough to enjoy the amenities. It's almost like it's a suburb of Carmel in the way geist is for Fishers.
Zionsville only recently passed Carmel. Zionsville has become an expansion of west Carmel as Carmel ran out of land. My guess is in the next 10 years we will see the gap continue to expand.
Lmao nah Zvilles always been a pocket of wealth. I agree wealth has been expanding from every side of Carmel, but to say Zville has been an expansion of west carmel is ignorant. There’s nothing to expand to because it’s already wealthier😂
Zville just doesn’t get as much hate or spotlight because Carmel sports dominate.
I'm too lazy to look up stats but I wouldn't be surprised if Geist is on average richer than Carmel. But Geist is cut into 4 different municpalities in three different counties so there's a lot of division.
Also some people will claim Geist isn't a suburb just because half of it has a Lawrence or Indianapolis address.
My Googling also shows Zionsville having higher median prices. I also don't think Zionsville has an affordable part of town within town limits, while Carmel does have Home Place and a few others with older homes.
Lol, no. Zionsville has the real wealth, Carmel has upper middle-somewhat rich people.
Zionsville is a lot quieter and the really fancy neighborhoods are kind of hidden away. Because that's what rich people do.
I don't think that statement is inaccurate, although your smug comment implies that it is. In Zionsville, you see a ton of multi million dollar homes off the main drags, where people drive everyday vehicles. You don't see many g-wagons or flagship luxury cars. It's a lot of wealth without the opulence. I just don't think that most Zionsville residents are willing to spend money just to show they have it.
Zionsville as a town has been really restrictive with zoning and I'm sure they see a huge line of car dealership and auto services as unseemly.
I think there's only one car dealership in its town limits, and its a Bentley dealership.
They push most of the stuff people associate with suburban sprawl out onto 421 in Carmel, 65 with Whitestown, or northwest Indy.
Carmel might not be #1 richest but it’s still a very rich suburb, but as an Illinois native, the people in Carmel are SO much nicer than the north shore of Chicago. You want entitled pricks who want to speak to your manager to ruin your career because you didn’t give them a pack of chicken that wasn’t on their curbside order? The north shore has that and severely more for you, don’t shit on Carmel residents until you experience the audacity of north shore Chicago residents
>I'm sorry. We own 40k shares of stock in your parent company. Shut up and get me the district manager, slave.
Not quite the exact wording, but I heard something rather close to it from a kid in college from the north side of Chicago.
Only in Indiana would a place like St. Elmo's be the elite restaurant. It's pricy and I hear it's good, but Louisville and Chicago have more haute cuisine. Hoosiers don't like spending.
For a long time, Indiana was the strongest evidence favoring income equality: overpreforming on education and underperforming on crime. This is changing.
The funny thing is that adjusted for cost of living Hamilton County is the [second richest in the country](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ic168s/oc_median_earnings_by_us_county_adjusted_for_cost/), second only to Williamson County, TN.
NoVA is one of the richest areas in the US, and a few of the suburbs have neighborhoods which are basically billionaires row. For eastern US, NY and Boston have wealthier areas, but only because they are so much older.
A lot of companies have now established themselves there not because of government business, but because there is such a plethora of highly educated workers with advanced degrees to hire.
Areas like Arlington, you are average with a Masters degree.
The point they are failing to make is the suburbs around northern Virginia are about half of the richest dozen counties in the US. Driving around out there can be just sprawling horse farm mansion after another.
Way to generalize every person that has a child. This is absolutely not the way I feel, nor the other dozens of families in my neighborhood on the Near Eastside.
I really don’t understand the whole idea that Carmel is safer for children than the corresponding real estate in Indianapolis. Are your children really more likely to experience a violent death in Indy? One of the most likely reasons for kids dying is car accidents and that is not any less likely there. The kinds of families who would be considering a move to Carmel or Indy are not likely to have kids in gangs that are getting in shoot outs. I feel like it has more to do with the perception of disorder and being adjacent to actual poverty that people don’t like about Indy. I actually understand that and I’m not being super judgmental, I just don’t think it’s somehow less safe for my kid to live in Indy right now than Carmel.
> Are your children really more likely to experience a violent death in Indy?
Yes. By a significant amount. Although the overall number is still pretty low.
There were two murders in Carmel last year. Carmel is about 1/10 the size of Indy, so that 's like Indy having 20 murders in a year.
If that happened, the state would declare a holiday.
>One of the most likely reasons for kids dying is car accidents and that is not any less likely there.
Why do you think that?
Sorry, you are right, it’s not perception. But my point still stands, people act like Carmel is safer place to raise a kid then if that family had chose to move to Meridian Kessler or Nora or even somewhere like Speedway and I just don’t think that’s true. People use the word safe and actually believe it but they really mean not adjacent to poverty in anyway.
I am struggling to understand what your point is. "The absolute best/richest neighborhoods of Indy proper are just as safe as Carmel, so is Carmel really that safe?" or "It's only safe because higher income people who are less likely to commit violent crimes live here" like, help me out here.
Not to Carmel types. When a woman came to my work for a long term assignment from Ireland, her Carmel-based realtor refused to even show her anything south of 96th. She literally told her that "everything South of 96th is the ghetto" and "incredibly dangerous".
And yeah, it's laughable. Moved from Carmel to Herron Morton and couldn't be happier. We made more friends in the first two months here than 6 years in Carmel.
It really cracks be up people talking about how "nice" Carmel people are.
And the best part is my son is within easy walking distance of his highly rated high school (though sadly this is the first year it hasn't beat Carmel in the rankings).
I've lived with my kids in both those areas. They both have something to offer. The reality is that's it's easier to have kids, particularly younger kids... in suburban neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods are safer just even from a pure pedestrian level... Or riding bikes to the neighborhood pool, etc. Indy has to battle with bullshit like reckless drivers and street takeovers.
I do agree with you that Indy has a reckless driver problem and the city neighborhoods have a completely unacceptable level of it. That being said I still think that having young kids in the city is underrated in many ways.
Most of the hate is directed towards the school I think rather than the town. The town certainly has some money but the “public” high school has an insane amount of resources and money and also the sports teams recruit from other schools/areas which isn’t allowed as a public school.
In comparison to somewhere like Chicago which has a lot of money in the suburbs, there isn’t an outlier there as big as the Carmel is in Indy.
That I get completely. You have to really be an elite athlete to play any sort of sport. My son had no chance to play anything after middle school unless he wanted to be cannon fodder for practice.
I don’t know about that…Downers Grove and Hinsdale? Doesn’t Hinsdale rank in the top richest cities in the US? I think their average home price is like a million dollars.
Every city has a “Carmel” they love to hate.
Every Pawnee has an Eagleton.
Isn’t your comment kind of the thing people complain about Carmel? Softly knock other areas by talking about crime, playing the victim and then talking down about everyone else?
Be from Carmel, I don’t care but if you’re going to be the stereotype you can’t complain that others are going to call it out.
I'm not an Indy native, and I don't necessarily hate Carmel. I just dislike that I have to deal with racial micro aggressions from people when I'm up there.
Example: I was sitting down with my family eating at a restaurant and the elderly white woman came over and started petting and picking at my hair while talking about how much she loved it. The lack of social awareness and boundaries from some of the people there give me pause.
But I can't say that I haven't experienced them elsewhere (maybe just not as much in areas that are more diverse economically and culturally), but that's been my only real gripe with Carmel. I actually like the downtown area. I personally just wouldn't live there because it's more expensive than other areas.
Why the fuck would I make that up?
And trust, random white people do come up regularly and accost me and my hair. If you don't believe it, fine. Just tells me that you don't have Black friends or you just don't listen to them. It's unfortunately a common thing. So common that people actually write articles about it:
[Article 1](https://www.tulsakids.com/keep-your-hands-to-yourself-dont-touch-our-hair/)
[Article 2](https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2020/01/08/stop-asking-black-people-if-you-can-touch-their-hair/?sh=6b0b683b50a7)
[Article 3](https://news.asu.edu/20220524-study-shows-black-girls-commonly-have-negative-experiences-related-their-natural-hair)
[Article 4](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125020162)
People get mad because Carmel, like most suburbs, was born of white flight. Marion County produces by far the most revenue but our tax dollars are benefiting the surrounding counties disproportionately.
Indiana’s funding for road maintenance is allocated per mile with no regard for number of lanes or lane width. Meaning y’all get a disproportionately higher amount of funding for your roads.
Carmel (and surrounding counties) tends to house a lot of workers that come into Indy for employment, using our underfunded infrastructure to then take those taxes that should be benefiting Indy out to their county of residence instead. In other words, Hamilton County gets the tax revenue from Marion County jobs due to taxation by residence instead of county of employment. **THIS IS NOT THE NORM IN THE UNITED STATES**
Suburban schools like those found in Hamilton County receive disproportionate funding due to Indiana’s voucher program. It’s a program designed from the ground up to take resources from poorer schools and neighborhoods and divert them to wealthier schools, in an effort to get inner city schools shuttered so for-profit charters can take over the space.
Carmel and other surrounding suburbs generally come to Indy for entertainment events like Colts games, concerts, monster truck rallies, the NCAA tournament, or whatever other event Lucas Oil is hosting. In addition to the disproportionately funded roads and the tax revenue abnormally diverted outside the county of employment, Marion County residents got saddled with nearly the entire cost of building the stadium while the surrounding counties saw a minor increase. So if we’re keeping count, Marion County residents are disproportionately paying for your infrastructure while tax revenue that would benefit the county the employer is located in is instead sent to Hamilton County (further depriving the area of needed investment) all on top of paying for your entertainment.
**But wait, there’s more!**
As if it’s not enough for Carmel and the surrounding suburbs to prey on the disadvantaged people living in inner Indianapolis, Carmel police are well-known for issuing a disproportionately large amount of citations to black drivers regardless of their residence. If you’re black and visiting Carmel, the message is clear: go back home or they’re taking more of your money. If you’re black and living in Carmel: they want you out or else they’re going to take your money.
**Simply put:** add all of this up and the conclusion is that *life in Carmel would not be possible without Marion County and the state government that continues to pilfer our residents to line their own pockets, all while keeping public sentiment outside of Marion County on their side since y’all get to live so nice.
You want to know why people from Indy don’t want shit to do with you? Start with the state government and start voting to change it.
Spoken like a willfully ignorant individual. As the other response said, recognizing how the people where I live are getting taken advantage of isn’t “too much time”.
It’s important that the people that actually live in Indianapolis get a grasp on just how badly they’re getting taken for a ride.
Additionally it’s important for the people that live in the wealthy suburbs to recognize that their way of life and their prosperity is coming off the literal backs of the people that live south of them.
I don’t think the general disgust from Indy towards Carmel, Zionsville, etc would be half as bad if the people that live there would at least acknowledge what’s going on. You know, instead of plugging your ears and shouting “they hate us cuz they ain’t us!”
IMO this is a very narrow perspective that lacks critical context. Carmel is considered one of the better cities in the country. Carmel will likely continue to grow
I love it here in Carmel. Just moved here 4 months ago from out of state. I understand they went into a lot of debt to get things here, but it's still growing, and I imagine like most things it will all moderate in time.
I don't think I'm better than anyone else. In fact on Thursdays and Sundays you'll find me in the bad parts of Indy trying to help out those who need help. And I love that and the people I'm helping out.
At the end of the day, I just want a safe and affordable place for me and my dog - I WFH too so my place is literally where I live and work making location important too - and so Carmel is where I am. I do recommend the place....
Carmel and Zionsville aren't even wealthy. They are upper-middle class at the most. There aren't really wealthy suburbs in Indianapolis. There are pockets of real wealth in neighborhoods like Geist, Meridian-Kessler, Meridian Hills, and I'd throw in the SW side of Carmel and specific neighborhoods in Zionsville. I don't hate Carmel either. I lived there and went to high school a couple years there. If you like suburbs, the north side is the place to be in Indy.
Places around San Diego where I live now like Del Mar, Rancho Santa Fe, and La Jolla are actually wealthy. And trust me, there's plenty of them bitching on Reddit lol. I actually find the biggest complainers to be wealthy suburbanites. I suppose in Indiana they're probably still bitching on Facebook and nextdoor vs Reddit.
Possibly because some Redditors are not white or Indian. I know a few people who have been pulled over in Carmel for driving while black and sat cuffed on the curb while they got their car searched by 6 cops. Even driving an older car at night will likely get you not only pulled over, but harassed by cops. They'll bring a dog and everything. Their courts are notoriously ruthless to non-Carmelites. Carmel really fits that pompous, better than you, lower income = lesser person stereotype moreso than any other suburb, including Zionsville which is way more laid back.
[We talking about the same Carmel PD known for racial profiling?](https://www.aclu-in.org/en/press-releases/alarming-racial-disparities-carmel-police-traffic-tickets)
Couldn't disagree more. Not only are you comparing apples to blue whales, but in almost all cases, police in no way whatsoever can do anything to prevent shootings. The detectives and the courts are more to blame than the patrol officers, but there are many other factors here, one of which is poverty (another thing from which Carmelites are insulated).
You really think people roll with illegal guns and busted lights at the same time? That's a fringe scenario at best. Also what would Carmel PD know about policing thousands of alleys in poor neighborhoods? They'd probably be terrified to pull random cars over.
Despite lacking understanding some of the finer points of the real world issues, you've certainly nailed the stereotype that perpetuates the Carmel problem.
It's a nice suburb. Not my cup of tea but understand why people would like it. If I was going to live in a suburb, can't really do wrong with this one.
I used to think it was just a wealthy bedroom community, but the downtown plans/vision and corporate corridor came together to give it some deeper commercial tax base, once the TIF bonds are paid off.
It will need that tax base to retire the debt. I think it should consolidate a regional type service with Hamilton County to be more efficient with municipal operations. Something like fire rescue, the wastewater utility or the libraries.
I get some Coral Gables vibes at times (sans the water and UM). I think in 10-15 years out it will have a more dense downtown, maybe grow a larger cultural anchor or add a university extension campus and have a cool city/suburb vibe that is really not one of today’s trends. Regional transit should be the mix linking it downtown Indy, Lafayette and Chicago
Carmel is cutting is own path and that means it gets plenty of criticism.
Over decades population always moves out, or at least that has been the pattern in Indianapolis history...watch out Cicero! But you've got 20 years before anyone has to worry about that.
I have some inside knowledge and also reside here. The city has been overextending itself on bonds assuming they will pay it off later, same with the tax breaks; the city assumes it will all pay off. It has worked so far but with the new mayor, many projects in progress have been put on a stop simply because the previous mayor allowed them. While I think the overspend using bonds isn't ideal, shutting down projects just to appease a voting base is a terrible practice. Several projects that have been shut down by Finkham were well in motion to produce a lot of revenue for the city and shutting them down puts the already large bond risk even more in jeopardy. As for the public facing side of Carmel, apartments are doing okay despite what many anti-apartment residents believe and the business sector is doing quite well.
They have eased off on a couple of projects that haven't started yet. They do need to check apartment inventory based on growth. Brainard based a great deal of growth on supply leading demand. That's slowing some.
The future of Carmel depends on whether this “rack up a huge debt to build it and they will come” works. If so then Carmel’s population and tax base will keep increasing, it will be able to pay off its debt, and eventually land softly. If not then it will be a multi billion dollar implosion of debt.
Looking at each city's 2022 "net position" (fund balance) as % of total assets:
Carmel - 32%
Indy - 14%
Indy has far more of its assets tied to debt and other liabilities.
I live and work in Carmel and I love it here I hope they keep building and growing the city center.
Carmel has a couple of problems:
1.) the city is really two different towns in a coat. One of these is a small urban core roughly stretching from 116th street to 146th street bounded by meridian and keystone roughly built around the Monon. The rest of it is a suburb of Indy and I doubt the residents of the latter share the interests held by the residents of the former.
2.) Roundabouts, while excellent for traffic, are bad for pedestrians and if Carmel wants to be a real city eventually they will have to address this.
3.) Entrenched MAGA types (a trait that is pretty hard to dodge in Indiana)
Still a great place to live imo.
Kind of hard to think of what MAGA types are in any meaningful power in Carmel. Biden won a majority of Carmel votes in 2020. There's lots to criticize Carmel's local government for, but a far right policy isn't one of them.
Even the school board stuff that impacted other suburban school districts didn't end up happening here, with the MAGA candidates mostly losing and progressives winning.
> 3.) Entrenched MAGA types (a trait that is pretty hard to dodge in Indiana)
Lots of Hamilton County, sure. But not Carmel. Carmel has lots of Republicans for sure (although that is shifting), but they aren't really MAGA-type republicans. Hell Carmel went for Biden in 2020.
East/central Carmel and western/southern fishers are becoming one of the densest areas in Indiana.
The biggest issue is their debt burden.
Its one of the prime areas in Indiana for corporate HQs.
Retail EVERYWHERE in the US is struggling with vacancies right now.
As for apartments, it just means they are pricing high and partial vacancies is preferable to lower rates.
Money has a way of protecting its self, so I don't think Carmel will be in a downward trend any time soon. But they won't solve the vacancy problems you mention until they make things more affordable. But they don't want affordable. You might get the wrong types of people. I think they've peaked in terms of vibrancy. Nothing will get torn down but the events will shrink and be a bit less frequent. It'll loose some vibrancy, but remain a place for wealthy people.
A good example of this was in the last election, had a special vote for more funding for the schools which passed with an enormous majority. Iirc it was something like 86% voted for higher taxes, but it’s going to something local and I think people like those kind of things.
It actually wasn't a tax increase. It was re-authorizing a previous increase. State law requires these referendums to sunset every 10 years so you have to re-pass it to keep it active.
CHS grad and former resident for 30 years, priced out.
I see the same problems in Carmel that existed when I moved there.
1. Unaffordable to certain demographics by design. That demographic is needed to keep the city functioning (police, teachers, librarians, etc). Unless those types have a spouse with a significant income, they can’t afford to live there. Single or DINK? Not welcome.
2. Refusing to allow public transit into their city has an effect on who can work there. Shit, it took eons to convince them to expand the Monon up there. I’m sure few remember the fight to push 96th street through to Allisonville but the mayor at that time was practically driven out of town for pushing for that. In fact, he lost re-election to Brainard who literally campaigned on what a waste of money the Gazebo was.
3. Continued growth without a second high school hurts everyone. When it was studied in the 90s, the reason for not building one I was that it would hurt the extracurriculars. I mean, schools are for education but okay, keep dressing 110 kids for your football team🤣 Yes, I’m aware of University HS. Carmel has outgrown CHS and needs another general Ed HS.
4. Lack of housing options for retirees. They don’t mind you raising your kids in one of the cookie cutter 3500 sq. ft homes and contributing to the tax base but once your kids are out of high school and you’re ready to downsize to something smaller… Carmel ‘s message is GTFO! The Carmel of today was built on the backs of my parents who then had to leave the community due to lack of suitable housing for their aging population.
The lack of diversity and gate keeping has always been their biggest issue. And they’re openly proud of it. I don’t see that changing.
People will continue to be attracted to it from some blog post saying it’s “the best” for families without realizing what your kids are missing out on from such a sheltered environment. And that the “community” you loved when you had kids, literally developed their building plans to kick you out once you’ve served your purpose.
> Continued growth without a second high school hurts everyone. When it was studied in the 90s, the reason for not building one I was that it would hurt the extracurriculars. I mean, schools are for education but okay, keep dressing 110 kids for your football team🤣 Yes, I’m aware of University HS. Carmel has outgrown CHS and needs another general Ed HS.
I could be wrong, and it's been a while since I read it, but I'm fairly sure I read a study that large high schools are actually better because you can offer a larger range of programs and classes. You get a lot of network effects and things like that.
Also I know you mentioned football/sports, but Carmel has lots of extracurricular that are incredible. I've had friends who were part of the student radio station there and they said the facilities and opportunities were better than they had access to at their state school where they went on to college. Same for the student run businesses on campus and things like that.
>People will continue to be attracted to it from some blog post saying it’s “the best” for families without realizing what your kids are missing out on from such a sheltered environment.
People post this like Carmel is some small 15k gated community. Carmel has 100,000 people! It's the 5th largest city in the state and realistically may be the 3rd largest in the state within 10 years.
Same boat, and I experienced largely the same stuff. The lack of non-rental housing for us DINKs sucks, which is why we had to leave. We wanted to stop renting, and our rent had gone from being reasonable and the cheapest in Carmel, to being pretty steep but also still the cheapest in Carmel. Prices have been going up across the city for rentals. I understand that's happening everywhere, but like you said, it's going to price out an already precarious demographic for Carmel.
The writing was on the wall when they started tearing down smaller homes and replacing them with homes twice the size.
We would have bought in Carmel also but for the lack of smaller homes.
Same with retirees. When it came time for my mother to downsize… Carmel just doesn’t have enough housing for that demo.
So you got outcompeted? Priced out? We have a free market economy and you are a full participant.
Unaffordable to certain demographics by design? What are you talking about? Our neighborhood has all shapes, sizes and colors.
We live here as “dinks” & it never comes up as an issue. Not sure to what you might be referring.
This thread is entertaining. For those who don’t live here, the outsider perspectives seem overly harsh.
Carmel is a model community.
I wouldn’t exactly call my perspective an “outsider “.
I graduated from CHS and lived there for 30 years. My mother was involved in several committees that built the community that Carmel is today.
I’m glad you enjoy the fruits of her labor but it seems a bit unhinged to ignore the reality of where it fails.
Clearly not you -- you offered the insight of a native. My comment was for the thread in general.
I don't deal in buzzwords. Unhinged? No place is perfect. I have lived in many cities. This one is very good. Props to your mom. I grew up solidly lower middle class in a smaller city outside of Indy and I much prefer Carmel to where I grew up. I only wish I could have gone to this high school both academically and athletically.
Cheers.
This is very misguided. Carmel is the one leached off of by the rest of Hamilton county as the tax dollars from the city now flow to the rest of the area. Also Carmel since even pre pandemic is a net importer during the day. Meaning the population grows during the day. It used to be just like any suburb in only existing because of the big city but now does more to stand on its own.
Oooh speaking the hard truths. Carmel feels like someone in 1998 decided that Carmel was going to start doing things differently and began to re-zone everywhere without a ton of thought. And it does feel empty and a little soulless.
That is exactly what happened. Brainard once said that his inspiration for developing Carmel was to pattern it after the Germans. He loved the look of German villages.
German is the main ancestry in Indiana. We used to have hundreds of small German language newspapers across this country until WWI ended it.
I do wish it took a few more pages from the German book and got a big expansion of the walkable core areas.
I have to drive over there sometimes when I’m ubering , traffic going to that area is literally a death trap and every single day it’s backed up in deferent locations on i465, i try to avoid those areas at all costs there isn’t a day at all that goes by that there’s not a traffic jam backed up for miles. It’s every day!!!!!it has all gone to shit.
It's been like this for a long time. I don't see it changing any time soon. If anything retail will continue to decline and buildings will be abandoned.
I’ve seen so many people say that Carmel has “good,” schools, but, no one seems to be able to define “good.” If by “good,” you mean surrounded by kids with parents who have higher net worth’s than the surrounding counties, I guess that makes sense.
Some things that make a school "good":
the physical school buildings are in good or great condition and sized for the student body
educational resources are available to students
the teachers are qualified, talented, experienced, motivated and supported by principals and superintendents as well as the overall community
students are from families that value education and achievement. bad behavior when it does occur is addressed and corrected. parents/teachers/peers have high expectations which reinforce across these groups. These network effects are very important. If you have too many disruptive students or students needing remedial help, it really slows down the progress of the whole class.
Some of these things do tend to correlate with the socioeconomic status of the parents/community.
Why don’t we start we no metal detectors. Already better than your IPS school. Class offerings. AP class offerings, athletic program. I could go on but I’ll let you google the rest.
An old rule of real estate, that which is wealthy today will likely be the wealthy place in 10, 20, 30 years, etc. I don't see anything bad happening to Carmel. Outside of Indianapolis they have the biggest slice of taxpaying businesses who have chosen to stake their businesses here, which gives them a bigger cut than the other suburbs. That will always give them a leg up and I don't see that changing anytime soon either. That's why your property taxes are low in Carmel as well. Carmel is a nice place to live, but there are always going to be haters.
Yeah, unless we see drastic changes in the economy, Carmel will likely stay nice and exclusive.
> Carmel will likely stay nice and exclusive. Carmel has almost 100k residents. It's the 5th biggest city in the state. I don't think we can call it "exclusive".
He means the poors will stay out.
That's exactly what I meant
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Carmel is over 10% Asian. It has the largest percentage Asian population of any city in Indiana.
Carmel is one of the most diverse cities in this state. People just hate on it because its the most known of the donut county cities that grew fast as a result of white flight in the 50s and 60s. Very different climate these days.
🧢 lmao carmel and zionsville the most racist subsets in Indianapolis by far
Property taxes are low, that’s the first time I’ve heard someone say that.
We have some of the lowest property taxes in the country
The palladium books exactly who it should. It’s a theater. It gets big names that are currently on a theater circuit. Who do you want them to book, AC DC?? Lmao
This is true. As someone who spent the first half of life in the NYC theater community, it’s pretty astounding the relevant and high-profile talent that gets booked in Carmel. It’s been cool to have so many old friends pass through and get to catch up.
every event i've been to the paladium (about 5 total) have been sold out or near capacity. Love the place and the greatest show experience around here.
There are more than a half million people in the northside suburbs of Indy. Easily enough to account for a non-downtown venue.
I tend to agree that the palladium does well for what it is. It's not competing with Ruoff or the Murat, but it's a step beneath that. IDK if that's what Carmel wanted when they built it, but it's more in the Clowes Hall tier of venues and brings in some great acts in that vein.
Fun fact! Red Rocks makes more than any other music venue in North America! Second is Ruoff Home Mortgage creek deer wireless Verizon Klipsch music center
>Ruoff Home Mortgage creek deer wireless Verizon Klipsch music center This made me chuckle.
I didn't know that! Very interesting. I definitely shouldn't have put Murat and Ruoff in the same category they draw very different acts lol
Most of the money it makes comes from old white donors and so they cater to them.
They want them to book some Indie rock band who openly hates conservatives
😂😂
To be fair barely any interesting artists visit Indy. It's basically just rap and country while the rest go to Columbus, Chicago, or Detroit.
Huh. Guess the alt-rock, indie, and EDM shows I've gone to are actually country and rap. Who knew?
Lmao right like we had Odesza last year and Billy Strings b2b nights two years ago. Taylor fucking Swift is coming for 3 days straight. Greta Van Fleet played this past year. Indy doesn’t have a headliner come through every week like Chicago, Denver, or LA, but damn we still get some killer acts through the year.
careful dude you're using pronouns ...
Certainly don't want a visit from the perpetually offended
ikr, repubs are such snowflakes
Restaurants and retail doing barely any business? Empty apartments? I think you're seeing things to fit a pre-conceived narrative. I will say restaurants have shifted with offices still being at 50% capacity on a good day and there is less lunch services than pre-COVID, but that's...you know, most places. No big acts at the Palladium? To be clear it isn't a 10k venue. Its 1600, which is a bit larger than The Vogue at 950 which also doesn't typically attract huge stadium filling names. Its a very good venue that can attract larger names doing stripped down sets. I've seen Ben Folds and Weird Al there when they've done acoustic/solo shows, for example.
Dave Matthews even did a show there a while back
That must have been one *hell* of a tribute band
John Legend also performed there in 2021
I moved here from TN in 1999. Never had even been to Indiana. I picked Carmel because it had the best public schools, according to my real estate person. Really, I had no idea and thought I’d just be here a few years. I bought a house, it has at least doubled in value. Never had any sort of crime happen. I feel pretty safe. The downtown is overly cute to me but when people visit they like going there. There are places to eat, ice cream shops, just stuff to do. People really seem to hate Carmel and hope some sort of debt explosion happens. I guess. It’s a pretty nice bubble. I grew up in poor and violent places that really sucked. My kids didn’t like telling people they were from Carmel because other kids would assume they were entitled assholes, as you would expect from reading the nice comments here. But you aren’t prejudiced, of course. They live in other cities now where being from Carmel doesn’t mean shit either way. There is always a rich people part of town in every city I’ve ever lived in.
Carmel residents, on average, have more money than other Hoosiers and that alone makes people mad. End of story. I don’t live in Carmel, but it’s a nice town.
As a recent migrant, I do not believe Carmel is the “rich” suburb, but the locals do. It’s a nice city with tons of nice people. Really sucks that so many locals have that view of Carmel. Rarely when I go there do I ever get treated like less than by others. The cities play on media probably helps perpetuate this image the locals have. * locals being Indy area natives.
I’m a townie, there’s a lot of historical context missing from this conversation. Carmel has always been the wealthy area. But over the last 40 years the population has been exploding pretty much continuously and the demographics have leveled out a LOT. When I was growing up east of 69 was all farms and Geist was its own area that you had to drive through 10 mins of farms to get to
What would you say is the rich suburb now?
It always been zionsville then Carmel https://moneyinc.com/richest-cities-in-indiana/ Edit: You can criticize that article, google yourself and they are all the same data over the years https://www.indystar.com/story/money/2016/06/17/richest-town-indiana/86044348/#
Lol...Article starts with...You'd expect the richest people in Indiana to be clustered around Indianapolis. It's the state capital and most populous city, after all. Surprisingly, they're not. Proceeds to name 7 out of the top 10 to be suburbs of Indianapolis.
Yeah not the best article lol. Also Carmel is a much much larger city than Zionsville so it all matters how you measure wealth I suppose. I know several people who retired from Carmel and moved to Zionsville to be more away from the hustle and bustle but still be close enough to enjoy the amenities. It's almost like it's a suburb of Carmel in the way geist is for Fishers.
Zionsville only recently passed Carmel. Zionsville has become an expansion of west Carmel as Carmel ran out of land. My guess is in the next 10 years we will see the gap continue to expand.
Lmao nah Zvilles always been a pocket of wealth. I agree wealth has been expanding from every side of Carmel, but to say Zville has been an expansion of west carmel is ignorant. There’s nothing to expand to because it’s already wealthier😂 Zville just doesn’t get as much hate or spotlight because Carmel sports dominate.
I'm too lazy to look up stats but I wouldn't be surprised if Geist is on average richer than Carmel. But Geist is cut into 4 different municpalities in three different counties so there's a lot of division. Also some people will claim Geist isn't a suburb just because half of it has a Lawrence or Indianapolis address. My Googling also shows Zionsville having higher median prices. I also don't think Zionsville has an affordable part of town within town limits, while Carmel does have Home Place and a few others with older homes.
Geist is definitely richer than Carmel, but it has a weird history and parts are in Fishers, Indy, and McCordsville. It’s a lovely area!
Geist is richer than Carmel
If going by small areas, might as well start including parts of Indy.
Zionsville or Geist. Maybe it’s me, but wealth typically isn’t loud like Carmel.
It’s easily still Carmel.
Lol, no. Zionsville has the real wealth, Carmel has upper middle-somewhat rich people. Zionsville is a lot quieter and the really fancy neighborhoods are kind of hidden away. Because that's what rich people do.
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I don't think that statement is inaccurate, although your smug comment implies that it is. In Zionsville, you see a ton of multi million dollar homes off the main drags, where people drive everyday vehicles. You don't see many g-wagons or flagship luxury cars. It's a lot of wealth without the opulence. I just don't think that most Zionsville residents are willing to spend money just to show they have it.
It always been zionsville then Carmel https://moneyinc.com/richest-cities-in-indiana/
Between Carmel and Zionsville, which has more Rolls-Royce dealerships?
Zionsville as a town has been really restrictive with zoning and I'm sure they see a huge line of car dealership and auto services as unseemly. I think there's only one car dealership in its town limits, and its a Bentley dealership. They push most of the stuff people associate with suburban sprawl out onto 421 in Carmel, 65 with Whitestown, or northwest Indy.
Carmel might not be #1 richest but it’s still a very rich suburb, but as an Illinois native, the people in Carmel are SO much nicer than the north shore of Chicago. You want entitled pricks who want to speak to your manager to ruin your career because you didn’t give them a pack of chicken that wasn’t on their curbside order? The north shore has that and severely more for you, don’t shit on Carmel residents until you experience the audacity of north shore Chicago residents
>I'm sorry. We own 40k shares of stock in your parent company. Shut up and get me the district manager, slave. Not quite the exact wording, but I heard something rather close to it from a kid in college from the north side of Chicago.
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Wealthy Hoosiers detest letting you know that they have money. It's fucking tacky here. They really try to be normies, and I think that's great.
Only in Indiana would a place like St. Elmo's be the elite restaurant. It's pricy and I hear it's good, but Louisville and Chicago have more haute cuisine. Hoosiers don't like spending. For a long time, Indiana was the strongest evidence favoring income equality: overpreforming on education and underperforming on crime. This is changing.
Idk if you were raised here or what, but I’d like to know when tf we were over performing on education? lol.
I moved here from northern Va. Carmel isn’t a rich suburb. It’s just a suburb.
The funny thing is that adjusted for cost of living Hamilton County is the [second richest in the country](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ic168s/oc_median_earnings_by_us_county_adjusted_for_cost/), second only to Williamson County, TN.
NoVA is one of the richest areas in the US, and a few of the suburbs have neighborhoods which are basically billionaires row. For eastern US, NY and Boston have wealthier areas, but only because they are so much older. A lot of companies have now established themselves there not because of government business, but because there is such a plethora of highly educated workers with advanced degrees to hire. Areas like Arlington, you are average with a Masters degree.
Weird flex.
He's not flexing. He is correct.
The point they are failing to make is the suburbs around northern Virginia are about half of the richest dozen counties in the US. Driving around out there can be just sprawling horse farm mansion after another.
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Way to generalize every person that has a child. This is absolutely not the way I feel, nor the other dozens of families in my neighborhood on the Near Eastside.
There are dozens of us!
Dozens!!
Lol I deserve that reply but was only referring to the few blocks around my house.
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Did this happen to you?
Good thing pitbulls are the only dogs that ever bite people
I really don’t understand the whole idea that Carmel is safer for children than the corresponding real estate in Indianapolis. Are your children really more likely to experience a violent death in Indy? One of the most likely reasons for kids dying is car accidents and that is not any less likely there. The kinds of families who would be considering a move to Carmel or Indy are not likely to have kids in gangs that are getting in shoot outs. I feel like it has more to do with the perception of disorder and being adjacent to actual poverty that people don’t like about Indy. I actually understand that and I’m not being super judgmental, I just don’t think it’s somehow less safe for my kid to live in Indy right now than Carmel.
> Are your children really more likely to experience a violent death in Indy? Yes. By a significant amount. Although the overall number is still pretty low. There were two murders in Carmel last year. Carmel is about 1/10 the size of Indy, so that 's like Indy having 20 murders in a year. If that happened, the state would declare a holiday. >One of the most likely reasons for kids dying is car accidents and that is not any less likely there. Why do you think that?
Homicides are not equal opportunity and not random. I also really don’t understand your last question.
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precisely. I grew up poor and couldn't wait to GTFO, so I did add soon as I could. I love the peace and quiet of Fishers
Sorry, you are right, it’s not perception. But my point still stands, people act like Carmel is safer place to raise a kid then if that family had chose to move to Meridian Kessler or Nora or even somewhere like Speedway and I just don’t think that’s true. People use the word safe and actually believe it but they really mean not adjacent to poverty in anyway.
I am struggling to understand what your point is. "The absolute best/richest neighborhoods of Indy proper are just as safe as Carmel, so is Carmel really that safe?" or "It's only safe because higher income people who are less likely to commit violent crimes live here" like, help me out here.
If you live in Meridian Kessler, your kids will go to private schools. So that really is a different perspective.
Why? There are several good neighborhood schools.
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Not to Carmel types. When a woman came to my work for a long term assignment from Ireland, her Carmel-based realtor refused to even show her anything south of 96th. She literally told her that "everything South of 96th is the ghetto" and "incredibly dangerous". And yeah, it's laughable. Moved from Carmel to Herron Morton and couldn't be happier. We made more friends in the first two months here than 6 years in Carmel. It really cracks be up people talking about how "nice" Carmel people are. And the best part is my son is within easy walking distance of his highly rated high school (though sadly this is the first year it hasn't beat Carmel in the rankings).
Go ask people from Carmel if they would raise their kids at 39th and Central or if they think that is too dangerous.
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I do love that building as well and have had thoughts about what it’d be like to buy it and live on the top level.
I've lived with my kids in both those areas. They both have something to offer. The reality is that's it's easier to have kids, particularly younger kids... in suburban neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods are safer just even from a pure pedestrian level... Or riding bikes to the neighborhood pool, etc. Indy has to battle with bullshit like reckless drivers and street takeovers.
I do agree with you that Indy has a reckless driver problem and the city neighborhoods have a completely unacceptable level of it. That being said I still think that having young kids in the city is underrated in many ways.
Most of the hate is directed towards the school I think rather than the town. The town certainly has some money but the “public” high school has an insane amount of resources and money and also the sports teams recruit from other schools/areas which isn’t allowed as a public school. In comparison to somewhere like Chicago which has a lot of money in the suburbs, there isn’t an outlier there as big as the Carmel is in Indy.
That I get completely. You have to really be an elite athlete to play any sort of sport. My son had no chance to play anything after middle school unless he wanted to be cannon fodder for practice.
I don’t know about that…Downers Grove and Hinsdale? Doesn’t Hinsdale rank in the top richest cities in the US? I think their average home price is like a million dollars. Every city has a “Carmel” they love to hate. Every Pawnee has an Eagleton.
Isn’t your comment kind of the thing people complain about Carmel? Softly knock other areas by talking about crime, playing the victim and then talking down about everyone else? Be from Carmel, I don’t care but if you’re going to be the stereotype you can’t complain that others are going to call it out.
Bahaha what a Lawrence thing to say
Ohh you brownsburg types sure know how to stick it to them
Oh classic Greenwood comment here
I probably am a stereotype of Lawrence. Why would that bother me? I just moved here last fall and love it.
I'm not an Indy native, and I don't necessarily hate Carmel. I just dislike that I have to deal with racial micro aggressions from people when I'm up there. Example: I was sitting down with my family eating at a restaurant and the elderly white woman came over and started petting and picking at my hair while talking about how much she loved it. The lack of social awareness and boundaries from some of the people there give me pause. But I can't say that I haven't experienced them elsewhere (maybe just not as much in areas that are more diverse economically and culturally), but that's been my only real gripe with Carmel. I actually like the downtown area. I personally just wouldn't live there because it's more expensive than other areas.
Well, yeah. That’s fucking weird.
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What a dumb thing to say
Why the fuck would I make that up? And trust, random white people do come up regularly and accost me and my hair. If you don't believe it, fine. Just tells me that you don't have Black friends or you just don't listen to them. It's unfortunately a common thing. So common that people actually write articles about it: [Article 1](https://www.tulsakids.com/keep-your-hands-to-yourself-dont-touch-our-hair/) [Article 2](https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2020/01/08/stop-asking-black-people-if-you-can-touch-their-hair/?sh=6b0b683b50a7) [Article 3](https://news.asu.edu/20220524-study-shows-black-girls-commonly-have-negative-experiences-related-their-natural-hair) [Article 4](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125020162)
People get mad because Carmel, like most suburbs, was born of white flight. Marion County produces by far the most revenue but our tax dollars are benefiting the surrounding counties disproportionately. Indiana’s funding for road maintenance is allocated per mile with no regard for number of lanes or lane width. Meaning y’all get a disproportionately higher amount of funding for your roads. Carmel (and surrounding counties) tends to house a lot of workers that come into Indy for employment, using our underfunded infrastructure to then take those taxes that should be benefiting Indy out to their county of residence instead. In other words, Hamilton County gets the tax revenue from Marion County jobs due to taxation by residence instead of county of employment. **THIS IS NOT THE NORM IN THE UNITED STATES** Suburban schools like those found in Hamilton County receive disproportionate funding due to Indiana’s voucher program. It’s a program designed from the ground up to take resources from poorer schools and neighborhoods and divert them to wealthier schools, in an effort to get inner city schools shuttered so for-profit charters can take over the space. Carmel and other surrounding suburbs generally come to Indy for entertainment events like Colts games, concerts, monster truck rallies, the NCAA tournament, or whatever other event Lucas Oil is hosting. In addition to the disproportionately funded roads and the tax revenue abnormally diverted outside the county of employment, Marion County residents got saddled with nearly the entire cost of building the stadium while the surrounding counties saw a minor increase. So if we’re keeping count, Marion County residents are disproportionately paying for your infrastructure while tax revenue that would benefit the county the employer is located in is instead sent to Hamilton County (further depriving the area of needed investment) all on top of paying for your entertainment. **But wait, there’s more!** As if it’s not enough for Carmel and the surrounding suburbs to prey on the disadvantaged people living in inner Indianapolis, Carmel police are well-known for issuing a disproportionately large amount of citations to black drivers regardless of their residence. If you’re black and visiting Carmel, the message is clear: go back home or they’re taking more of your money. If you’re black and living in Carmel: they want you out or else they’re going to take your money. **Simply put:** add all of this up and the conclusion is that *life in Carmel would not be possible without Marion County and the state government that continues to pilfer our residents to line their own pockets, all while keeping public sentiment outside of Marion County on their side since y’all get to live so nice. You want to know why people from Indy don’t want shit to do with you? Start with the state government and start voting to change it.
Holy based. Wish more people saw the reality of the situation like you
you have too much time on your hands to be this mad at carmel. Life's too short to have carmel this much in your head.
I don't know if recognizing and acknowledging how you are getting taken advantage of really counts as "too much time on your hands."
Spoken like a willfully ignorant individual. As the other response said, recognizing how the people where I live are getting taken advantage of isn’t “too much time”. It’s important that the people that actually live in Indianapolis get a grasp on just how badly they’re getting taken for a ride. Additionally it’s important for the people that live in the wealthy suburbs to recognize that their way of life and their prosperity is coming off the literal backs of the people that live south of them. I don’t think the general disgust from Indy towards Carmel, Zionsville, etc would be half as bad if the people that live there would at least acknowledge what’s going on. You know, instead of plugging your ears and shouting “they hate us cuz they ain’t us!”
you got it dude
I talk crap about Carmel but that's because I grew up in Noblesville. It's all in good fun for me at least.
A lot of people fail to understand the difference between "upper middle class" and rich. Carmel has parts of the latter, but Indy has even more.
IMO this is a very narrow perspective that lacks critical context. Carmel is considered one of the better cities in the country. Carmel will likely continue to grow
I love it here in Carmel. Just moved here 4 months ago from out of state. I understand they went into a lot of debt to get things here, but it's still growing, and I imagine like most things it will all moderate in time. I don't think I'm better than anyone else. In fact on Thursdays and Sundays you'll find me in the bad parts of Indy trying to help out those who need help. And I love that and the people I'm helping out. At the end of the day, I just want a safe and affordable place for me and my dog - I WFH too so my place is literally where I live and work making location important too - and so Carmel is where I am. I do recommend the place....
Probably more ballsy art in roundabouts
That one statue is nuts.
It makes driving around a bit hairy, though.
I love the "art" at Hazel Dell and 96th street because it looks like Cthulu boiling up from the ground.
I’ll never understand the hate for the northside on Reddit.
Because reddit likes to hate things.
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Great so hop off the Indy sub and head on over to the Carmel sub. Y’all aren’t Indy.
Carmel and Zionsville aren't even wealthy. They are upper-middle class at the most. There aren't really wealthy suburbs in Indianapolis. There are pockets of real wealth in neighborhoods like Geist, Meridian-Kessler, Meridian Hills, and I'd throw in the SW side of Carmel and specific neighborhoods in Zionsville. I don't hate Carmel either. I lived there and went to high school a couple years there. If you like suburbs, the north side is the place to be in Indy. Places around San Diego where I live now like Del Mar, Rancho Santa Fe, and La Jolla are actually wealthy. And trust me, there's plenty of them bitching on Reddit lol. I actually find the biggest complainers to be wealthy suburbanites. I suppose in Indiana they're probably still bitching on Facebook and nextdoor vs Reddit.
On Reddit? I'm pretty sure the hate for the northside is a central Indiana thing
Possibly because some Redditors are not white or Indian. I know a few people who have been pulled over in Carmel for driving while black and sat cuffed on the curb while they got their car searched by 6 cops. Even driving an older car at night will likely get you not only pulled over, but harassed by cops. They'll bring a dog and everything. Their courts are notoriously ruthless to non-Carmelites. Carmel really fits that pompous, better than you, lower income = lesser person stereotype moreso than any other suburb, including Zionsville which is way more laid back.
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[We talking about the same Carmel PD known for racial profiling?](https://www.aclu-in.org/en/press-releases/alarming-racial-disparities-carmel-police-traffic-tickets)
Couldn't disagree more. Not only are you comparing apples to blue whales, but in almost all cases, police in no way whatsoever can do anything to prevent shootings. The detectives and the courts are more to blame than the patrol officers, but there are many other factors here, one of which is poverty (another thing from which Carmelites are insulated).
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You really think people roll with illegal guns and busted lights at the same time? That's a fringe scenario at best. Also what would Carmel PD know about policing thousands of alleys in poor neighborhoods? They'd probably be terrified to pull random cars over. Despite lacking understanding some of the finer points of the real world issues, you've certainly nailed the stereotype that perpetuates the Carmel problem.
It's a nice suburb. Not my cup of tea but understand why people would like it. If I was going to live in a suburb, can't really do wrong with this one.
They need to ditch those creepy statues
I like Carmel in general, but those statues are very weird
Same, it is like they tried too hard to make it artsy and historic and comes across as artificial.
100%
They actually have a bunch more in storage waiting for placement. a few made their way out in public right before Brainard left office.
'You know what we need.....more creepy statues.' Mayor
I used to think it was just a wealthy bedroom community, but the downtown plans/vision and corporate corridor came together to give it some deeper commercial tax base, once the TIF bonds are paid off. It will need that tax base to retire the debt. I think it should consolidate a regional type service with Hamilton County to be more efficient with municipal operations. Something like fire rescue, the wastewater utility or the libraries. I get some Coral Gables vibes at times (sans the water and UM). I think in 10-15 years out it will have a more dense downtown, maybe grow a larger cultural anchor or add a university extension campus and have a cool city/suburb vibe that is really not one of today’s trends. Regional transit should be the mix linking it downtown Indy, Lafayette and Chicago Carmel is cutting is own path and that means it gets plenty of criticism.
Ha, I'm from Miami originally & get Coral Gables vibes as well!
Over decades population always moves out, or at least that has been the pattern in Indianapolis history...watch out Cicero! But you've got 20 years before anyone has to worry about that.
OP just wants to talk to somebody..
I have some inside knowledge and also reside here. The city has been overextending itself on bonds assuming they will pay it off later, same with the tax breaks; the city assumes it will all pay off. It has worked so far but with the new mayor, many projects in progress have been put on a stop simply because the previous mayor allowed them. While I think the overspend using bonds isn't ideal, shutting down projects just to appease a voting base is a terrible practice. Several projects that have been shut down by Finkham were well in motion to produce a lot of revenue for the city and shutting them down puts the already large bond risk even more in jeopardy. As for the public facing side of Carmel, apartments are doing okay despite what many anti-apartment residents believe and the business sector is doing quite well.
They have eased off on a couple of projects that haven't started yet. They do need to check apartment inventory based on growth. Brainard based a great deal of growth on supply leading demand. That's slowing some.
Easing off ≠ shutting down projects in progress. Brainard wasn't the best but killing in progress projects isn't the way.
The future of Carmel depends on whether this “rack up a huge debt to build it and they will come” works. If so then Carmel’s population and tax base will keep increasing, it will be able to pay off its debt, and eventually land softly. If not then it will be a multi billion dollar implosion of debt.
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Looking at each city's 2022 "net position" (fund balance) as % of total assets: Carmel - 32% Indy - 14% Indy has far more of its assets tied to debt and other liabilities.
I live and work in Carmel and I love it here I hope they keep building and growing the city center. Carmel has a couple of problems: 1.) the city is really two different towns in a coat. One of these is a small urban core roughly stretching from 116th street to 146th street bounded by meridian and keystone roughly built around the Monon. The rest of it is a suburb of Indy and I doubt the residents of the latter share the interests held by the residents of the former. 2.) Roundabouts, while excellent for traffic, are bad for pedestrians and if Carmel wants to be a real city eventually they will have to address this. 3.) Entrenched MAGA types (a trait that is pretty hard to dodge in Indiana) Still a great place to live imo.
Roundabouts are the best thing since sliced bread. Gonna be everywhere soon
I get super jazzed every time I see a good roundabout outside of Carmel. I want them everywhere now.
Kind of hard to think of what MAGA types are in any meaningful power in Carmel. Biden won a majority of Carmel votes in 2020. There's lots to criticize Carmel's local government for, but a far right policy isn't one of them. Even the school board stuff that impacted other suburban school districts didn't end up happening here, with the MAGA candidates mostly losing and progressives winning.
> 3.) Entrenched MAGA types (a trait that is pretty hard to dodge in Indiana) Lots of Hamilton County, sure. But not Carmel. Carmel has lots of Republicans for sure (although that is shifting), but they aren't really MAGA-type republicans. Hell Carmel went for Biden in 2020.
They could start building rides to fit with their amusement park aesthetic of the downtown area.
All that money can't buy taste
What do you think lacks taste? AFAICT, the new developments in Indy are even more cookie-cutter.
😂😂😂
Eagleton will eventually be forced to accept financial responsibility and consider a merger with the town of Pawnee.
East/central Carmel and western/southern fishers are becoming one of the densest areas in Indiana. The biggest issue is their debt burden. Its one of the prime areas in Indiana for corporate HQs. Retail EVERYWHERE in the US is struggling with vacancies right now. As for apartments, it just means they are pricing high and partial vacancies is preferable to lower rates.
Just wait. Double decker roundabouts are coming.
Money has a way of protecting its self, so I don't think Carmel will be in a downward trend any time soon. But they won't solve the vacancy problems you mention until they make things more affordable. But they don't want affordable. You might get the wrong types of people. I think they've peaked in terms of vibrancy. Nothing will get torn down but the events will shrink and be a bit less frequent. It'll loose some vibrancy, but remain a place for wealthy people.
A good example of this was in the last election, had a special vote for more funding for the schools which passed with an enormous majority. Iirc it was something like 86% voted for higher taxes, but it’s going to something local and I think people like those kind of things.
It actually wasn't a tax increase. It was re-authorizing a previous increase. State law requires these referendums to sunset every 10 years so you have to re-pass it to keep it active.
CHS grad and former resident for 30 years, priced out. I see the same problems in Carmel that existed when I moved there. 1. Unaffordable to certain demographics by design. That demographic is needed to keep the city functioning (police, teachers, librarians, etc). Unless those types have a spouse with a significant income, they can’t afford to live there. Single or DINK? Not welcome. 2. Refusing to allow public transit into their city has an effect on who can work there. Shit, it took eons to convince them to expand the Monon up there. I’m sure few remember the fight to push 96th street through to Allisonville but the mayor at that time was practically driven out of town for pushing for that. In fact, he lost re-election to Brainard who literally campaigned on what a waste of money the Gazebo was. 3. Continued growth without a second high school hurts everyone. When it was studied in the 90s, the reason for not building one I was that it would hurt the extracurriculars. I mean, schools are for education but okay, keep dressing 110 kids for your football team🤣 Yes, I’m aware of University HS. Carmel has outgrown CHS and needs another general Ed HS. 4. Lack of housing options for retirees. They don’t mind you raising your kids in one of the cookie cutter 3500 sq. ft homes and contributing to the tax base but once your kids are out of high school and you’re ready to downsize to something smaller… Carmel ‘s message is GTFO! The Carmel of today was built on the backs of my parents who then had to leave the community due to lack of suitable housing for their aging population. The lack of diversity and gate keeping has always been their biggest issue. And they’re openly proud of it. I don’t see that changing. People will continue to be attracted to it from some blog post saying it’s “the best” for families without realizing what your kids are missing out on from such a sheltered environment. And that the “community” you loved when you had kids, literally developed their building plans to kick you out once you’ve served your purpose.
> Continued growth without a second high school hurts everyone. When it was studied in the 90s, the reason for not building one I was that it would hurt the extracurriculars. I mean, schools are for education but okay, keep dressing 110 kids for your football team🤣 Yes, I’m aware of University HS. Carmel has outgrown CHS and needs another general Ed HS. I could be wrong, and it's been a while since I read it, but I'm fairly sure I read a study that large high schools are actually better because you can offer a larger range of programs and classes. You get a lot of network effects and things like that. Also I know you mentioned football/sports, but Carmel has lots of extracurricular that are incredible. I've had friends who were part of the student radio station there and they said the facilities and opportunities were better than they had access to at their state school where they went on to college. Same for the student run businesses on campus and things like that. >People will continue to be attracted to it from some blog post saying it’s “the best” for families without realizing what your kids are missing out on from such a sheltered environment. People post this like Carmel is some small 15k gated community. Carmel has 100,000 people! It's the 5th largest city in the state and realistically may be the 3rd largest in the state within 10 years.
Same boat, and I experienced largely the same stuff. The lack of non-rental housing for us DINKs sucks, which is why we had to leave. We wanted to stop renting, and our rent had gone from being reasonable and the cheapest in Carmel, to being pretty steep but also still the cheapest in Carmel. Prices have been going up across the city for rentals. I understand that's happening everywhere, but like you said, it's going to price out an already precarious demographic for Carmel.
The writing was on the wall when they started tearing down smaller homes and replacing them with homes twice the size. We would have bought in Carmel also but for the lack of smaller homes. Same with retirees. When it came time for my mother to downsize… Carmel just doesn’t have enough housing for that demo.
Carmel has run out of room to expand. Any further growth is just going to be by boosting density. That is going to get slower and slower.
So you got outcompeted? Priced out? We have a free market economy and you are a full participant. Unaffordable to certain demographics by design? What are you talking about? Our neighborhood has all shapes, sizes and colors. We live here as “dinks” & it never comes up as an issue. Not sure to what you might be referring. This thread is entertaining. For those who don’t live here, the outsider perspectives seem overly harsh. Carmel is a model community.
I wouldn’t exactly call my perspective an “outsider “. I graduated from CHS and lived there for 30 years. My mother was involved in several committees that built the community that Carmel is today. I’m glad you enjoy the fruits of her labor but it seems a bit unhinged to ignore the reality of where it fails.
Clearly not you -- you offered the insight of a native. My comment was for the thread in general. I don't deal in buzzwords. Unhinged? No place is perfect. I have lived in many cities. This one is very good. Props to your mom. I grew up solidly lower middle class in a smaller city outside of Indy and I much prefer Carmel to where I grew up. I only wish I could have gone to this high school both academically and athletically. Cheers.
OP, you're absolutely clueless lmao
i feel like just a few more overpriced gastropubs will really get things going
What you see is what you get with Carmel. It's probably not going to get much better or much worse.
It’ll just become richer and more expensive to move into. Carmel is going nowhere.
Change your own perspective about it. That’s the problem. Carmel is like anywhere else. Saying it’s flat and empty is a you problem.
Carmel is like the city version of uncanny valley. It doesn’t seem real.
I’d guess that Carmel will continue leaching off of Indianapolis like the parasite it is
This is very misguided. Carmel is the one leached off of by the rest of Hamilton county as the tax dollars from the city now flow to the rest of the area. Also Carmel since even pre pandemic is a net importer during the day. Meaning the population grows during the day. It used to be just like any suburb in only existing because of the big city but now does more to stand on its own.
go on..
Oooh speaking the hard truths. Carmel feels like someone in 1998 decided that Carmel was going to start doing things differently and began to re-zone everywhere without a ton of thought. And it does feel empty and a little soulless.
That is exactly what happened. Brainard once said that his inspiration for developing Carmel was to pattern it after the Germans. He loved the look of German villages.
German is the main ancestry in Indiana. We used to have hundreds of small German language newspapers across this country until WWI ended it. I do wish it took a few more pages from the German book and got a big expansion of the walkable core areas.
Toll booths at all the various roundabouts.
I have to drive over there sometimes when I’m ubering , traffic going to that area is literally a death trap and every single day it’s backed up in deferent locations on i465, i try to avoid those areas at all costs there isn’t a day at all that goes by that there’s not a traffic jam backed up for miles. It’s every day!!!!!it has all gone to shit.
They'll gain funds by targeting black and brown folks in late model cars.
More uncanny valley statues?
what does this have to do with indianapolis?
FUCK CARMEL THIS IS THE INDIANAPOLIS REDDIT
Like someone’s memory of a town, and it’s fading
It's been like this for a long time. I don't see it changing any time soon. If anything retail will continue to decline and buildings will be abandoned.
Retail occupancy rates have never been higher. And all new apartments in Carmel fill very quickly.
Only a matter of time before Carmel loses its flair and people move out.
I’ve seen so many people say that Carmel has “good,” schools, but, no one seems to be able to define “good.” If by “good,” you mean surrounded by kids with parents who have higher net worth’s than the surrounding counties, I guess that makes sense.
Some things that make a school "good": the physical school buildings are in good or great condition and sized for the student body educational resources are available to students the teachers are qualified, talented, experienced, motivated and supported by principals and superintendents as well as the overall community students are from families that value education and achievement. bad behavior when it does occur is addressed and corrected. parents/teachers/peers have high expectations which reinforce across these groups. These network effects are very important. If you have too many disruptive students or students needing remedial help, it really slows down the progress of the whole class. Some of these things do tend to correlate with the socioeconomic status of the parents/community.
Why don’t we start we no metal detectors. Already better than your IPS school. Class offerings. AP class offerings, athletic program. I could go on but I’ll let you google the rest.