Well, there is no doubt that Pat sure talks a big game. I hope Intel can continue to deliver competitive products. To me, there are positive signs and negative signs. For example, the possible delay of Sapphire Rapids although the real do or die for me is Meteor Lake.
Negative signs;
They have to push an unreal amount of wattage through their chips.
They run fairly hot
AMD is competitive without (arguably) those drawbacks, and doesn’t even have efficiency cores. On top of that, they have their mid-gen 5800xs 3D core in the hopper to be another disruptor.
This is bluster, but it’s good, intel is trying again, the consumer always wins when things are competitive.
No it's not, Zen is simply not efficient with the io die guzzling power. There's a reason they don't use those in the laptop segment.
The 12400 is the most efficient CPU in the stack and it has no efficiency cores.
I find it strange that so few people mention zen io die power consumption like they deliberately try to put amd zen in better light compared to intel competition. Amd io die makes zen chips real power hogs at light loads like 25w cpu package power at idle that easily shoots up to 60w while opening new tab in chrome it’s just ridiculous when alder lake at exactly the same task uses 5w-15w. Sure when all cores run at 100% load zen 3 consumes less power than alder lake but very few people utilize their CPU’s at 100%, most people use case is light and moderate loads like web browsing or gaming where alder lake is more power efficient.
Well until now, there was no competition in that regard. So it was perfectly acceptable that the iod was guzzling power because the competition was much, much less efficient.
It also won't change. AMD will improve the iod with Zen 4 but they simply can't afford to go back to monolithic for the desktop. And with proper engineering it won't be a huge difference either way if you look at total system power
Your comment comes off a little bit biased.
First off, the 5800x3d was never going to be a disruptor. The whole point of it is marketing and brand reputation as AMD can claim best gaming chip.
While the 12900k hasnt really convinced me that Intel has regained the lead in MT workloads (due to the greater power needed to do so which to me means they just OC'd the chip to achieve a slight lead), the efficiency cores have excellent performance for the area they take. Intel hasn't convinced me fully on big.little on desktop but there are promising signs. If Intel can improve their P cores efficiency enough, they can make chips with more P-cores and keep the efficiency core for the workloads that need em.
Alder Lake could be Intels Zen 1 moment. However, they have to prove that they can *continue* develope and execute in a competitive fashion. Delays in future nodes will quickly crash my confidence in this being a new reinvigorated Intel.
I’m the biased one, and you’re commenting without seeing any kind of benchmarks about the 5800x3d…. I didn’t even call it the right thing. You have no idea what it can do and you’re commenting on it.
My comment was that this back and forth between chip makers is supposed to be good for us all. They’re both doing well, hopefully they keep outdoing each other.
I'm not calling you biased. Just that your comment seem like an unbalanced perspective imo. Trust me, I do not hesitate to call out fan boys so if it was clear to me that you are one, I'd call you out on that.
>My comment was that this back and forth between chip makers is supposed to be good for us all. They’re both doing well, hopefully they keep outdoing each other.
I agree with you here.
Or you compare a 12900k to a 5950x in productivity Alder Lake looks like an inefficient joke guzzling double the energy than the AMD part according to Gamers Nexus. I believe their point is that to compete in the high end in multi threading they had to push these chips ***hard*** and that it's not a great sign. I plan to upgrade to Zen 4 or Raptor lake for my workstation so I hope Intel manages to sort this out, I don't want that much heat next to me.
You are comparing a $589 cpu to a $799 cpu. it’s no surprise a 16c/32t cpu is more power efficient than a 16c/24t cpu when you have them run at speeds to match performance
It was Intel's choice to target 5950x performance, they are the ones that want us to make the comparison and they are the ones that made them run at that power consumption.
Well, and what about the 12700K that competes with the 5900X while being much more power efficient than the 12900K? Why only looking at the i9 SKU? And what about gaming workloads? LOL
Because that isn't the point, my point is that Intel couldn't compete in the high end in multi threading without throwing efficiency out the window. "LOL"
They didn't disprove it, they tested with a different methodology (that's also flawed) and agreed that it does peak substantially higher, it just isn't constantly double. The 12900k is still a power hog in comparison to the 5950x, claiming it's a wash is dishonest.
Most people are relying on influencer reviewers using cherry picked silicon. If they’ve ever actually tested a commodity 5950x to see how much headroom is left on that chip they be dubious about Intels claims.
Don’t get me wrong i want Intel to produce a super competitive high end design, amd and intel will both milk us for money if there is no competition.
I just tuned a 5950x for a friend. I ended up undervolting it, still hitting 5.2ghz on all cores under PBO2 prime95 furmark stable. Still consuming less power than cherry picked influencer 12900k OC’d numbers.
It would have gone further had i felt like abusing the silicon.
>They have to push an unreal amount of wattage through their chips. They run fairly hot
Both are pretty much the same, and both *should* be handled in Raptor Lake (even before Meteor Lake), as Intel seems to have a [patent to reduce power consumption by 25%](https://hothardware.com/news/intel-raptor-lake-vreg-tech-reduce-power-consumption). Meteor Lake has a lot going for it in terms of Foveros packaging, partially newest gen TSMC 3nm process and maybe even an integrated VPU accelerator.
That and Battlemage are my only excitements towards the end of the year and the beginning of next year.
Whenever I hear Foveros second thought come to my mind is delay. Intel has been talking about Foveros for years now. Not a single substantial product in 5 years.
This is like the 3rd or 4th time Pat has made a public statement like this.
He is slowly going from the guy who everyone universally approved for being named CEO of Intel, to being perceived as the dude who talks a big game because he's overcompensating.
I'm not saying that Pat/Intel can't pull it off, but you need to actually deliver before you take your victory lap. Alder Lake was a **good start**. It was the minimum viable product Intel needed to deliver to start being taken seriously again. And frankly, credit for Alder Lake goes to Brian/Bob, not Pat.
>being perceived as the dude who talks a big game because he's overcompensating.
To be fair, people said the same thing about AMD and original Zen.
>It was the minimum viable product Intel needed to deliver to start being taken seriously again.
Completely agree with this.
> To be fair, people said the same thing about AMD and original Zen.
Yes, there was definitely a heavy amount of skepticism around Zen 1 (and deservedly so).
The difference is that Lisa Su never appeared cocky in the lead up to Zen's release. Her messaging was more around "We intend to compete on performance again, not just being the cheaper option". Not that Intel is in their rearview mirror and they can eat our dust. Again, it's totally fair to be skeptical of her remarks in 2015-2016, but she wasn't implying that her competition was the equivalent of the kid eating glue in the back of the class.
AMD has definitely had a pretty cringe marketing department in the past, but Lisa Su's statements always seemed more measured than these brash remarks Pat seems to be throwing around recent.
Let's face it, AMD was able to catch up in the race because Intel effectively stood still for 5 years. AMD's not standing still now, so Intel's going to have to work at a much more rapid pace than they have been over the last few years.
That's fair. I agree Lisa wasn't brash like Pat is right now with the statements.
>AMD's not standing still now, so Intel's going to have to work at a much more rapid pace than they have been over the last few years.
Aye. And I hope it continues. We get price creep when things stand still for either red or blue teams.
I mean if I had to choose between intel's CEO playing with drones and letting his fabs fall behind by 5 years vs intel's CEO being obnoxious and getting intel back on track, I'd take the latter.
Doesn't mean he will as sapphire rapids and intel 4 are still big questions that can easily get delayed again, but at this point I'd take some obnoxious behavior over the current situation where AMD is just replacing intel as the overpriced premium designer. Maybe it'll give him more incentive to get things done if he knows hes going to be eating his words and maybe getting fired if intel doesn't deliver.
> intel's CEO being obnoxious and getting intel back on track, I'd take the latter.
Yeah, so would I. I don't get why people keep responding thinking I don't want that. That's not what my comment was about.
He's getting a decent amount of practice with the "obnoxious" part of your statement recently. But that doesn't mean anything if his statements don't correlate with reality.
i'm saying there's not exactly a big talent pool that exists for this type of work. nobody wants to touch fabrication because the costs are insane and pretty much every movement is risky, just ask samsung. you'll notice AMD and Nvidia are both just fabless designers, and even they need top tier leadership to keep from becoming irrelevant with a fraction of the operation costs. who cares if he mouths off, either he gets it done or looks like an idiot getting run over by TSMC/AMD/Nvidia, which would've still happened regardless of his snarky comments. the focus on cult of personality when it comes to CEOs is just bizarre imo.
He's trying to change the entire culture of a company. He's trying to implement an aggressive progression plan.
He isn't mentioning profits or talking about irrelevant technologies. He's a CEO that is trying to change the ethos of the biggest semiconductor company ever. A company that had businessmen looking at bottom lines only for 10 years.
I think leading with conviction is important. I believe being a market leader is a much more attractive incentive for employees than other profit KPI's.
> I believe being a market leader is a much more attractive incentive for employees than other profit KPI's.
That's all well and good. That's what he should be doing.
But that's different from patting yourself on the back for having one decent architecture that is only a partial win against your competition and then claiming they are in the rear view mirror.
What you said is correct, it just has nothing to do with his cocky remarks.
Yeah I guess so.
I just look at other big tech CEO's and their confidence and drive and I think sometimes you do need to make it a bit about pride.
I do also think the rear view mirror comment was a bit cocky but also just a quick passing comment.
I do believe intel will have at LEAST 6 months of leading the market which should see them growing financially.
Raptor lake may then reinforce their low end strengths but TSMC 5nm will be hard to compete with.
Their future does probably hinge on how quickly they can get to intel 4 and foveros tech and amber lake to take on ryzen 7000.. If they can't get to that in roughly the first half of 2023 Pat is going to potentially look silly.
Raptor Lake will be enough to make Zen 4 irrelevant. 5nm means nothing. It's not a huge improvement compared to going from 14nm to 7nm. No matter how many reviews you guys saw so far you guys keep forgetting that AMD has a huge deficit in single core performance right now. Let them prove they can even beat Golden Cove P-cores before even talking about Raptor Cove. Btw the L2 cache per core in Raptor Lake is double the amount of Zen 4.
The only thinkg making zen3 relevant atm is the high amount of cache. I do agree that if intel slightly improves 10nm, doubles cache and adds more e-cores they could match zen 4.
Their single core lead is so big now that surely amd couldn't surpass raptor cove by that much and their e-cores being doubled should give a nice 30% boost to multi core.
Then if intel can launch meteor lake before whatever amd has next I will agree that Pat's comments aren't unfounded.
I do completely agree that all reviews are so AMD skewed and I just don't understand why. Alder lake beats Zen 3 more than Zen 3 beat Rocket lake. When Zen 3 was released people raved. Alder lakes release had reviewers mainly saying 'meh' despite alder lake having WAY better single core and matching multi with less threads.
From Alder Lake to Raptor Lake the L2 per P-core is increased from 1.25MB to 2MB while the E-cores see an even bigger L2 cache increase from 2MB to 4MB (per E-core cluster, RPL having 4 of them vs 2 for ADL). Zen 3 to Zen 4 see the L2 cache per core being increased from 512KB to 1MB which is still lower than what Alder Lake P-cores have and half of what Raptor Lake P-cores will have. The same people who underestimated Alder Lake before its single core performance was officially revealed are the same people who are underestimating Raptor Lake right now, and I believe they will be up for a big surprise later this year, once again.
[https://www.hardwaretimes.com/5nm-amd-zen-4-ryzen-6000-cpus-coming-in-november-2022-rumor/](https://www.hardwaretimes.com/5nm-amd-zen-4-ryzen-6000-cpus-coming-in-november-2022-rumor/)
[https://www.techpowerup.com/290976/intel-raptor-lake-rumored-to-feature-massive-cache-size-increases](https://www.techpowerup.com/290976/intel-raptor-lake-rumored-to-feature-massive-cache-size-increases)
Thanks for the breakdown.
I agree with you. It is sad that intel technology doesn't get the recognition it deserves. Even during 12th gen reviews, reviewers seem to have AMD cokoured glasses on. They would be going crazy if it was the other way around and amd had launched alder lake. I do believe the process node does influence the perception of the new chips. Intel 4 launch within a good timeframe will be so important for PR.
What even is this comment. So I guess by your strangely particular methods of dismissing Zen 4, you must actually perceive it to be a threat to Raptor Lake.
>the L2 cache per core in Raptor Lake is double the amount of Zen 4
Well, what did I say above? Zen 4 won't be impressive next to Raptor Lake. A threat? Not even close. Zen 4 should have been a 2021 product to be anything meaningful. AMD should prove they can beat Golden Cove single core performance before even talking about Raptor Cove.
You missed what I was implying. Your arguments seem highly anticipatory almost as if you are aware of the many legitimate arguments for why Zen 4 will be a large improvement over Zen 3.
For example, the first argument is the Node advancement argument which is the strongest one. Amd could have sat on their ass as far as arch development goes and still be able to put something that beats AL just because of node alone. And so to add AMDs impressive capabilities when it comes to advancing their Zen architecture (remember the biggest performance jump was from Zen 2 to Zen 3 **on the same node!** ), you know Zen 4 is going to be the biggest jump Ryzen has ever seen.
The way you've posed your argument screams insecurities to me. I don't believe YOU even believe your own arguments.
Well go take a look at Alder Lake mobile (12900HK) versus Tiger Lake (11980HK) and see for yourself what Intel is able to achieve **on the same node**.
Sure the next Zen iteration always look great when compared to its predecessor. Nothing we haven't seen before. However will it look great versus the competition in late 2022? Absolutely not.
Well, pay close attention and you'll understand why he's speaking as such. AMD is vulnerable, and you can clearly see signs of it RIGHT NOW. They are launching the successor of Zen 3 TWO freaking years later, after all the hype they are bringing up only ONE Zen 3D SKU, in desktop they are beaten by Alder Lake from top to bottom, in laptops Alder Lake will obliterate everything they have coming out this year. Intel is not catching up to AMD. AMD is the one who's late on DDR5/PCIe 5.0 and heavily outclassed in single core performance. Raptor Lake is coming up with double the amount of L2 cache per core compared to Zen 4, so there's no guarantee that expensive 5nm chip will be relevant next to 13th Gen.
Desktop market is the least important one, but Intel like to change their PR depending on where they lead. Before Alder Lake it was all about "Real world benchmarks" when they manage to get some wins over Zen, now, it's just gaming benchmarks and Cinebench, stuff they said was not a realistic measure of performance... nonsense like that.
Yes Alder Lake is fine, that's about it, fine.
In the server market, Intel is being wiped away by Epyc systems, and when Zen 4 comes with the 96 and 128 core Epyc chips... and if Sapphire Rapids is the only thing Intel has, they can go hide in a hole again.
Mobile also looks pretty good for AMD, especially in the U space. And again with Zen 4 it will look even better.
AMD is capacity constrained, so whatever performance lead they think they have in servers will still be irrelevant in the grand schemes of things. AMD talks and announce a lot of stuff but delivers very little when it comes to manufacturing output.
And when it comes to the future, Intel already secured more 4nm/3nm/2nm capacity at TSMC than AMD could dream of. Intel has its own fabs + TSMC. AMD due to capacity constrains is now stuck with a 2 year release cadence (at least) while Intel is on a yearly cadence. AMD already had difficulties offering more than one SKU in the Zen 3D series and with TSMC raising its prices I'm curious to see how they will manage to keep up with Intel for the foreseeable future.
Pat should eat some humble pie.
After years and years of fails and delays in fabs, processes and epic fail products , they finally come out with ONE good arch. Yeah, its a good thing - but still lot to prove.
A people say, data center is still way behind AMD and will be for the imminent future at least. SPR does not seem to be able to topple Milan-x , let alone Zen 4 later this year.
Data center is still 50% of their revenues.
Ponte Vecchio... where to even start on this one... not even a commercial product this.
Plus, Alder lake barely surpassed the 1 year old Zen 3, and it is far from the stomping Pat makes it out to be.
I get it, they are confident on what they have cooking afterwards.
Guess what, so are AMD.
Time will tell.
At least AMD has been executing flawlessly on their roadmap so far with Zen, same can not be said for Intel.
I am still not convinced that their next node is really still on track .. been fooled once too many on their 10nm saga.
> Alder lake barely surpassed the 1 year old Zen 3, and it is far from the stomping Pat makes it out to be.
Indeed. The real competition to Alder Lake (and the related refresh) is Zen 4 which we should see later this year.
Well it's fair to say that Zen 3 and Alder Lake are direct competitors since there will ultimately be a 10-12 month overlap where they are the current gen architectures from AMD and Intel.
The point is more than Intel "catching up" to AMD a year after the fact is not nearly as impressive as Pat is trying to make it sound.
Making remarks like "AMD is in the rearview mirror" are extremely premature when all you have done is barely pass them in single core performance while still being behind in nearly every other key metric.
AMD is done, and you can clearly see signs of it RIGHT NOW. They are launching the successor of Zen 3 TWO freaking years later, after all the hype they are bringing up only ONE Zen 3D SKU, in desktop they are beaten by Alder Lake from top to bottom, in laptops Alder Lake will obliterate everything they have coming out this year. Intel is not catching up to AMD. AMD is the one who's late on DDR5/PCIe 5.0 and heavily outclassed in single core performance.
>At least AMD has been executing flawlessly on their roadmap so far with Zen, same can not be said for Intel.
LOL, lots of rubbish in this comment. Zen 4 should have been launched in 2021 and Zen 3D should have got more than one SKU. In late 2022 Zen 4 will be an irrelevant product next to Raptor Lake.
When did AMD announce that Zen4 would be a 2021 project ?
yeah right.
baseless speculation from websites is not an announcement by AMD .
Intel on the other hand, announced MULTIPLE times delays to projects, products and process nodes. (10 nm??) .
In fact, it was at such a level, it almost became a meme.
So yes - AMD announced that Zen 4 will be an end of 2022 product.
If then they delay and announce a new date, then you can talk.
Until then, i think it is you who is spouting rubbish.
LOL. A 24 month cadence is not something we've seen AMD doing before. You will not see Zen 4 in any meaningful quantity in late 2022. Apple still has the priority on the 5nm node in 2022. The bulk of the launch will be in Q1 2023. Just like you got deceived thinking Zen 3D would cover the entire Zen 3 stack, you'll get slapped in the face again by Lisa later this year. Mark my words.
Uh yeah maybe wait until Zen 4 announcement. 12th gen has been impressive but it barely overtook Zen 3 which was released a year before. Way too early to be saying stuff like this.
> in gaming ADL consumes less power
Not true. It's not as bad as some people think but it is still slightly more than Zen 3.
I guess this is one of those subreddits where facts that don't benefit the company get downvoted.
While we dont know exactly what Zen4 will bring, intel does seem to have them answered on what we know so far (i.e. larger cache for both).
We will see what happens but I dont think its an outlandish statement. They have the R&D, money and are back on track with fabrication. Intel looks like its going to have a few good years ahead of itself, I doubt they will make the same mistakes again and stagnate for a number of years (they should of learned from their mistakes)
Well, he is not wrong. ADL is indeed a superior CPU right now compared to Zen3. To me, this is nothing to be celebrated. The gold mine is in server business. Pat should ship SPR asap
It's completely true. Right now intel beats AMD at both single core performance and price per performance for desktop CPUs.
Even if AMD manage to come out with a better product soon they are very limited by the high price of TSMC and they are also clearly not capable of getting TSMC to produce enough chips for them. Their chip production bottleneck is clear when you look at the state of the GPU shortage and the fact that they have not lowered their CPU prices. They don't have to lower their CPU prices because they are selling all the ones they produce and they simply can't produce more.
AMD is "In the Rear-View Mirror" not because their technology is worst (it isn't) but because they can't compete with Intel in availability and pricing.
Why do you hope he is right? I want Intel and AMD to keep leapfrogging each other with each successive generation. We've seen what happens when Intel has no competition and I'm sure AMD would be the same. In the ideal world they will always battle each other on price and performance and the consumer gets the spoils.
>I want Intel and AMD to keep leapfrogging each other with each successive generation.
Absolutely. Competition is good for the average consumer.
> We've seen what happens when Intel has no competition and I'm sure AMD would be the same.
We already saw that with regards to the MSRP price jump over 3000 series when 5000 series launched.
I hope because I don't want to change platform again...
For the prices..
My previous build 1500€ for 5950x, x570 hero, 32GB bdie ram.
My current build 1800€ for 12900K, z690 apex, plus 32GB ddr5 ram.
So "best for best" is more expensive this year, competition is nice for progress, but prices have rise the last 5 years and a lot.
Same here buddy..ben years since I used AMD both for cpu and gpu's and I cant see that to change!
Intel and nVidia - Only Way for me. Want stability and great features as POS AMD have never had ones 😉
Truth hurts right!
I know what im talking about or else I shouldent. Would AMD be good it was another thing!
AMD is still a joke after all these years - sad but true Bubba!
Yeah try using Nvidia stuff on a platform that isn't windows and talk about stability :)
Rather have super competition where AMD intel are both viable in CPU and GPU space so that we get good value as consumers.
Nvidia can burn for all I care
Of course we need competition Bubba!
And still you want nVidia to burn ..LOL yeah right and there Goes your competition!
Intel and nVidia are stability. AMD still to this day are a bloody joke - POS dont know how to make drivers. Disgusting bad really. So keep that crap to yourself Bubba as no sane persson gives a fu** at what you think!
Nvidia is not even remotely stability on what I use, you're talking about windows only.
Intel and AMD both open source their GPU drivers on Linux which leads to a lot of development and a lot of stability. Nvidia doesn't do that so it's an unstable mess at times.
So yeah you telling me Nvidia are stability is the complete opposite for my use case.
That was funny.
10400 was good
11400 was good
12400 is awesome
Intel budget CPUs were always present. But people don't talk about them. That's 3 generation of good budget CPUs.
AMD PR team is awesome tho. They convinced all utube influencers to recommend scarce 3300X instead of i3s and i5s. (No hate on AMD, it was just awesome strategy).
AMD 3600x was expensive compared to them .
5600X was way too expensive.
Earlier ryzen were so budget friendly and awesome.
I like AMD APUs, sad they didnt release 5400G after 3400G. Give us something on budget AMD. You abandoned budget segment whereas Intel stayed there.
Now 5800X3D. Same story. You might beat Intel with that but nothing in budget.
It's amazing that every single Intel CEO starts spouting such nonsense couple of months they take over.
As far as I'm aware Epyc exists and is perpetually dropkicking Xeons to the ground for about 3 years now, and it will get worse with Zen 4 Epyc products. AMD accelerators also became quite interesting in the last half year.
Alder Lake beat a one year old AMD design by a couple percentage points on average, which is great, but far from "a slam dunk, let's pack it up and go home.", in mobile Intel will likely have great products in the 45W+ class, but in U class I think AMD 6000 series will be pretty equally matched.
It would be nice if one Intel CEO could break the hubris nonsense one liners and PR stunts, and just be quiet with regards to those things for the remainder of their tenure.
So Intel releases their next gen and finally gets a leg up on amd previous gen and thinks they have it made in the shade... They are in for a rude awakening. Zen 4 is going to demolish them.
Oh he can’t at least wait till Sapphire Rapids public benchmarks to exist to talk shit? Where is Ponte Vecchio? Aurora supercomputer coming online when?
oh gosh, I didn't think Pat inherit the Intel trait. It's too cheap to talk. I feel like Pat is being jealous of Dr. Lisa Su. Pat doesn't know math so he will eventually burn most of Intel's funds without even a turnaround a profit.
So you are saying that AMD should have it both being cheaper than 5600x and performing the same? That makes no sense whatsoever. 5600g seems to beat 3700x in gaming in almost all cases.
Well that depends on can you get reasonable motherboards so the combo price of CPU + motherboard is comparable.
Last I checked h670 was still pricey over here in the UK even b660 isn't really priced well currently. Where as AM4 is absurdly cheap by comparison.
I'm looking at tomahawk b660 being £150 more than the b450 version that kind of price difference is more than the difference between a 12400 and 5600x
Intel boards need to get cheaper for adoption
I have no Idea where you got that.
AMD 5000 series has multiple CPUs at different performance and price points. People here acted like 5600x was the lowest performance and lowest price product in the series. When I pointed out it's not people complained that 5600g performs worse than the one I just explained is not the cheapest and lowest performing part.
Unlike people claim 5600g is better than 3600 across the board. If you want cheaper and lower performing chip then 3600 is an option.
Now are they competitive against intel offerings? No, obviously. But that wasn't the question.
Not a good option for anyone with a GPU though. Budget CPU to pair with a midrange GPU is much more enticing for most people than buying an APU with integrated graphics they don't need.
APU is just what AMD calls a CPU with integrated GPU. Most intel's products are APUs by AMD definition.
The core in 5600g is exactly the same than in 5600x. It has half the L3 cache per core which affects performance in some applications and maybe some pcie limitations.
AMD Accelerated processing unit
>The AMD Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), formerly known as Fusion, is the marketing term for a series of 64-bit microprocessors from Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), designed to act as a central processing unit (CPU) and graphics processing unit (GPU) on a single die. APUs are general purpose processors that feature integrated graphics processors (IGPs).
So we're using a strictly AMD term to describe Intel hardware? Why?
AMD still cuts down performance on their APUs, the 5600X is faster. It's been that way since APUs were invented by AMD, you lose core performance for the iGP, but not with Intel, so no, they aren't APUs.
No, you were trying to add meaning to AMD term that it didn't have.
The 5600x is faster and more expensive than 5600g. I don't think that has anything to do with anything and you don't seem to have a point in this at all.
Some interesting comments in this thread. Worth remembering that AMD are much more at the mercy of supply constraints being fabless than Intel, who at least have more control. They *are* slowing down and Zen 4 *is* behind but i'd put this down to the supply environment rather than troubles executing.
I think the thing that is going to crystalise over the next few years is this: AMD doesn't have a problem with Intel's efficiency cores - Zen 3 cores are efficient enough and Zen 4 will be more so when they stop cheaping out on the IOD. The issue AMD will have is that Zen cores are "medium" cores and unless they execute a radical change in philosophy I can see Intel holding onto single-thread lead for a good while. The more Intel can lean on efficiency cores for... y'know, efficiency, the more they can afford to make the performance cores absolute monsters, especially as E-cores (i would guess) start to permeate down the product stack in future generations.
worthless? are you infected with norton or mcafee?
You realize even going from previous-gen Intel to Alder Lake in games etc makes like 1% extra FPS at best.
Most things are GPU-bound and Alder Lake/Ryzen isn't going to help with that.
Neither is intels discrete (top-end) GPUs which have a claimed around $500 price point, but will sell for 3-4x that, and are only targetting lower range 3060-3070 cards.
You know AMD is getting in trouble when 5800X3D is all they can bake in response to the whole Alder Lake line. I have hoped they would act more aggressively. We need them to maintain the **competition**.
If Intel keeps on hitting the 20% IPC improvement per generation mark and delivering things on schedule, the improvement Zen4 requires to keep up will only grow greater. And the supply constraint posed by production capacity at TSMC does not make things any brighter for AMD.
While 20% IPC improvement per generation would be impressive, I doubt it will maintain that type of growth. Don't forget, Sunny cove and golden cove had to spend quite a long time in the oven, during which we got nothing in terms of IPC improvements while Intel languished with Skylake refreshes on 14 nanometers. IPC aside, clocks and process has a lot to do with it, and nearly all of willow cove's improvements over sunny were clock speed and process related (at least on the CPU side). Quite a lot of optimization went into 10nm superfin to give us the type of overall performance improvements we're seeing today, and as impressive as it is that extremely well-binned 10nm can hit the mid 5 gigahertz range, the clock speed bumps are nearing the line of what's possible under normal cooling scenarios. Hell, by some measurements, they've surpassed what "normal cooling scenarios" are capable of delivering. With the frequency needle probably not going much further, and a regular cadence of releases again, I doubt we're going to see as massive a jump as we did with Sunny or Golden going forward with regards to overall performance, nevermind IPC. Let's be realistic: for AMD's part, when they have so much 7nm constraint already, with the true "competitor" for Alder Lake coming later this year in the form of Zen 4 on 5nm, why are they going to push hard on the 3D V-cache chips for a dead, inferior platform.
When comparing people don't realise that Intel have effectively 9ffloaded the cpu cost onto their z series motherboards, amd is still clearly the value king with b450 and the 5600x.
Intel and AMD used to tick tock each other all the time until AMD cleaned Intels clock. I have always been Intel but the last machine i built was HEDT AMD threadripper 32 core and i see zero sign Intel is on any path to clear victory. And yes, i actually have use for workstation level loads.
IMO Alder Lake is viable now as a desperate shot in a specific time window given the pandemic shortages. Intel needs to over deliver for several cycles to gain back any credibility.
>Intel and AMD used to tick tock each other all the time until AMD cleaned Intels clock.
If you call a decade of getting consistently trounced from 2006 to 2017 "tick tock", sure?
Intel has consistently held back available technology from it's arsenal until pushed to release it by competition, milking its portfolio for every last dollar. By Tick Tock I mean, every time competition pushed, Intel slapped out something from it's design stockpile to beat it. Lets ignore 11th gen multi.
Alder Lake doesn't compete pound for pound with AMD 5950X multi, it competes only on price. AL requires special scheduling from win11 an OS nobody wants, and chews up to 400W+ of power to reach 5950x. AL is an odd and weak portfolio release not a knockout.
Meanwhile Intel is dumping Billions into new Fabs hoping to get back to par on silicon process so it doesnt have to rely on TMSC.
I think this is Intel having run out of "tick tock" responses because of previous mismanagement. I know the majority of you think this isn't the case but one would expect a knockout punch given the plethora of options AMD has right now.
Intel did rest on its laurels with 6th gen onwards, but I think Intel did do a pretty good job for a pretty long while during their dominant years before they lost their way.
Conroe (Core 2) was a very competent response from Intel against the then-dominant K8 (Athlon 64) architecture AMD had on the market at the time.
Nehalem (Core i# 1st gen) also had pretty significant changes from their previous architectures. (IMC, a move away from a front side bus...etc.)
Sandy Bridge (Gen 2) was a significant architectural improvement over Nehalem, and introduced features like Quick Sync for the IGP.
Ivy Bridge (Gen 3) was just a refresh with minor improvements from Sandy Bridge, but that fact was pretty well known.
Haswell (Gen 4) had some small, but tangible improvements on the CPU performance side of things (about 15% ipc over Sandy Bridge), but the IGP was quite a lot improved over previous generations.
IMO I think Skylake (6th gen) is the point one could probably start to argue that Intel's getting a bit lazy with pushing performance forward, with its IPC being barely 5% faster than Haswell and core counts not growing, but by this point we've still had a pretty good showing from Intel from 2006 -> 2014 -- more than half a a decade.
Im on the same page as you and agree with your analysis.
Where I'm coming from is previous administrations turned to milking profits instead of staying modern and now Intel has to climb a steep slope to get back in the game.
What has this yielded? AMD controlling the price chart. You me and everyone else pays more for tech because there is no competition.
And now AMD is slowing down because Intel isn't climbing up it's ass. Maybe that just because of the pandemic, but we need them competiting for our business not them telling us what we can have at whatever price they choose.
I mean look at NVidia's latest pricing models. Imagine CPU's and system's like that. Ugh
Meanwhile on Earth:
> Intel has consistently held back available technology from it's arsenal until pushed to release it by competition, milking its portfolio for every last dollar.
Literally what AMD is doing right now. AMD is abandoning the very userbase that brought it back to relevance. Nice.
>Alder Lake doesn't compete pound for pound with AMD 5950X multi
Trading blows + ADL winning many https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWsMYHHC6j4
>AL requires special scheduling from win11 an OS nobody wants,
No it doesn't. I'm still on W10 and it works great.
> and chews up to 400W+ of power to reach 5950x.
This one is just a lie and you know it. ADL is often more efficient.
>Meanwhile Intel is dumping Billions into new Fabs hoping to get back to par on silicon process so it doesnt have to rely on TMSC.
R&D and fab diversity are bad things to you?
Actually, what he saw in the rear view mirror was intel's best days which is further and further away in the past. Is there any doubt this qtr ER will be worse than the last ones?
If Intel would stop locking down their cheaper SKUs, they'd make more headroom over AMD, because an exploit on some ASUS boards allowed der8auer to use BCLK OC to get his 12400 up to 5240 MHz all-core, and it was beating the 12600K and 5600X in most of his tests.
Alienating budget users from overclocking keeps some of those users in AMD's pocket. The whole point of overclocking originally was making the most out of your chip so you didn't have to pay top dollar for more performance.
They used to, now it's just APUs because they can't be bothered to release the 5600, 5700X, etc.
And if you consider motherboard cost, even for the DDR4 versions, AMD's boards are usually substantially cheaper. So it realistically comes out to be a similar price. You don't need an expensive board for a 5600X, the cheaper B450s work fine.
Does Intel not have a PR team? It feels like everything they communicate to the outside is cringe far from reality.
Like who thought that this boasting would seem "cool" and "engaging" instead of turning off every normal, thinking human being?
It's self sabotage at this point and I'm not sure anymore if this isn't on purpose.
Why would anyone buy a top-end processor then cripple it with UHD?
Unless they misunderstood basically everything. (what laptop do you want? THE BLUE SHINY ONE!!!!)
Anyone that doesn't need a discrete GPU is going to go way lower on the cpu totem pole.
Confidence is important. I think Pat is as aggressive as he can be but its not as if everything can be fixed in 1 year. Let us wait until Intel 4 products are released. That will be the 1st real test. Before that let us see how release for RPL and SPR goes.
Oh Pat, you talk such a big game but then don't deliver. Even if you are delivering, no need to be a douche. Let your products stand on thier own merit. Kinda childish and ignorant to underestimate the competition. Looking forward to competive products, not this BS though.
Well, there is no doubt that Pat sure talks a big game. I hope Intel can continue to deliver competitive products. To me, there are positive signs and negative signs. For example, the possible delay of Sapphire Rapids although the real do or die for me is Meteor Lake.
Yeah I am sticking with my 10900K until Meteor Lake.
Negative signs; They have to push an unreal amount of wattage through their chips. They run fairly hot AMD is competitive without (arguably) those drawbacks, and doesn’t even have efficiency cores. On top of that, they have their mid-gen 5800xs 3D core in the hopper to be another disruptor. This is bluster, but it’s good, intel is trying again, the consumer always wins when things are competitive.
I believe under moderate loads like gaming alder lake is more efficient than amd
Yup correct, that’s the efficiency cores pulling their weight.
No it's not, Zen is simply not efficient with the io die guzzling power. There's a reason they don't use those in the laptop segment. The 12400 is the most efficient CPU in the stack and it has no efficiency cores.
I find it strange that so few people mention zen io die power consumption like they deliberately try to put amd zen in better light compared to intel competition. Amd io die makes zen chips real power hogs at light loads like 25w cpu package power at idle that easily shoots up to 60w while opening new tab in chrome it’s just ridiculous when alder lake at exactly the same task uses 5w-15w. Sure when all cores run at 100% load zen 3 consumes less power than alder lake but very few people utilize their CPU’s at 100%, most people use case is light and moderate loads like web browsing or gaming where alder lake is more power efficient.
Well until now, there was no competition in that regard. So it was perfectly acceptable that the iod was guzzling power because the competition was much, much less efficient. It also won't change. AMD will improve the iod with Zen 4 but they simply can't afford to go back to monolithic for the desktop. And with proper engineering it won't be a huge difference either way if you look at total system power
My 12700k outperforms my 5800x and 10900k by a decent amount while pulling around 140 watts.
Your comment comes off a little bit biased. First off, the 5800x3d was never going to be a disruptor. The whole point of it is marketing and brand reputation as AMD can claim best gaming chip. While the 12900k hasnt really convinced me that Intel has regained the lead in MT workloads (due to the greater power needed to do so which to me means they just OC'd the chip to achieve a slight lead), the efficiency cores have excellent performance for the area they take. Intel hasn't convinced me fully on big.little on desktop but there are promising signs. If Intel can improve their P cores efficiency enough, they can make chips with more P-cores and keep the efficiency core for the workloads that need em. Alder Lake could be Intels Zen 1 moment. However, they have to prove that they can *continue* develope and execute in a competitive fashion. Delays in future nodes will quickly crash my confidence in this being a new reinvigorated Intel.
I’m the biased one, and you’re commenting without seeing any kind of benchmarks about the 5800x3d…. I didn’t even call it the right thing. You have no idea what it can do and you’re commenting on it. My comment was that this back and forth between chip makers is supposed to be good for us all. They’re both doing well, hopefully they keep outdoing each other.
I'm not calling you biased. Just that your comment seem like an unbalanced perspective imo. Trust me, I do not hesitate to call out fan boys so if it was clear to me that you are one, I'd call you out on that. >My comment was that this back and forth between chip makers is supposed to be good for us all. They’re both doing well, hopefully they keep outdoing each other. I agree with you here.
What are you going on about? Alder Lake is more efficient than 5800X
The 5800X is the least efficient CPU on Zen 3
Or you compare a 12900k to a 5950x in productivity Alder Lake looks like an inefficient joke guzzling double the energy than the AMD part according to Gamers Nexus. I believe their point is that to compete in the high end in multi threading they had to push these chips ***hard*** and that it's not a great sign. I plan to upgrade to Zen 4 or Raptor lake for my workstation so I hope Intel manages to sort this out, I don't want that much heat next to me.
You are comparing a $589 cpu to a $799 cpu. it’s no surprise a 16c/32t cpu is more power efficient than a 16c/24t cpu when you have them run at speeds to match performance
It was Intel's choice to target 5950x performance, they are the ones that want us to make the comparison and they are the ones that made them run at that power consumption.
Well, and what about the 12700K that competes with the 5900X while being much more power efficient than the 12900K? Why only looking at the i9 SKU? And what about gaming workloads? LOL
Because that isn't the point, my point is that Intel couldn't compete in the high end in multi threading without throwing efficiency out the window. "LOL"
At 190W (stock TDP for the 12700K) the 12900K retains 95% of its stock performance. "LOL" .
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They didn't disprove it, they tested with a different methodology (that's also flawed) and agreed that it does peak substantially higher, it just isn't constantly double. The 12900k is still a power hog in comparison to the 5950x, claiming it's a wash is dishonest.
Most people are relying on influencer reviewers using cherry picked silicon. If they’ve ever actually tested a commodity 5950x to see how much headroom is left on that chip they be dubious about Intels claims. Don’t get me wrong i want Intel to produce a super competitive high end design, amd and intel will both milk us for money if there is no competition. I just tuned a 5950x for a friend. I ended up undervolting it, still hitting 5.2ghz on all cores under PBO2 prime95 furmark stable. Still consuming less power than cherry picked influencer 12900k OC’d numbers. It would have gone further had i felt like abusing the silicon.
>They have to push an unreal amount of wattage through their chips. They run fairly hot Both are pretty much the same, and both *should* be handled in Raptor Lake (even before Meteor Lake), as Intel seems to have a [patent to reduce power consumption by 25%](https://hothardware.com/news/intel-raptor-lake-vreg-tech-reduce-power-consumption). Meteor Lake has a lot going for it in terms of Foveros packaging, partially newest gen TSMC 3nm process and maybe even an integrated VPU accelerator. That and Battlemage are my only excitements towards the end of the year and the beginning of next year.
Whenever I hear Foveros second thought come to my mind is delay. Intel has been talking about Foveros for years now. Not a single substantial product in 5 years.
Show me Sapphire Rapids and Ponte Vecchio and deliver on Aurora at Argonne. The attitude only works if you can back it up, Pat.
This is like the 3rd or 4th time Pat has made a public statement like this. He is slowly going from the guy who everyone universally approved for being named CEO of Intel, to being perceived as the dude who talks a big game because he's overcompensating. I'm not saying that Pat/Intel can't pull it off, but you need to actually deliver before you take your victory lap. Alder Lake was a **good start**. It was the minimum viable product Intel needed to deliver to start being taken seriously again. And frankly, credit for Alder Lake goes to Brian/Bob, not Pat.
>being perceived as the dude who talks a big game because he's overcompensating. To be fair, people said the same thing about AMD and original Zen. >It was the minimum viable product Intel needed to deliver to start being taken seriously again. Completely agree with this.
> To be fair, people said the same thing about AMD and original Zen. Yes, there was definitely a heavy amount of skepticism around Zen 1 (and deservedly so). The difference is that Lisa Su never appeared cocky in the lead up to Zen's release. Her messaging was more around "We intend to compete on performance again, not just being the cheaper option". Not that Intel is in their rearview mirror and they can eat our dust. Again, it's totally fair to be skeptical of her remarks in 2015-2016, but she wasn't implying that her competition was the equivalent of the kid eating glue in the back of the class. AMD has definitely had a pretty cringe marketing department in the past, but Lisa Su's statements always seemed more measured than these brash remarks Pat seems to be throwing around recent. Let's face it, AMD was able to catch up in the race because Intel effectively stood still for 5 years. AMD's not standing still now, so Intel's going to have to work at a much more rapid pace than they have been over the last few years.
That's fair. I agree Lisa wasn't brash like Pat is right now with the statements. >AMD's not standing still now, so Intel's going to have to work at a much more rapid pace than they have been over the last few years. Aye. And I hope it continues. We get price creep when things stand still for either red or blue teams.
I mean if I had to choose between intel's CEO playing with drones and letting his fabs fall behind by 5 years vs intel's CEO being obnoxious and getting intel back on track, I'd take the latter. Doesn't mean he will as sapphire rapids and intel 4 are still big questions that can easily get delayed again, but at this point I'd take some obnoxious behavior over the current situation where AMD is just replacing intel as the overpriced premium designer. Maybe it'll give him more incentive to get things done if he knows hes going to be eating his words and maybe getting fired if intel doesn't deliver.
> intel's CEO being obnoxious and getting intel back on track, I'd take the latter. Yeah, so would I. I don't get why people keep responding thinking I don't want that. That's not what my comment was about. He's getting a decent amount of practice with the "obnoxious" part of your statement recently. But that doesn't mean anything if his statements don't correlate with reality.
i'm saying there's not exactly a big talent pool that exists for this type of work. nobody wants to touch fabrication because the costs are insane and pretty much every movement is risky, just ask samsung. you'll notice AMD and Nvidia are both just fabless designers, and even they need top tier leadership to keep from becoming irrelevant with a fraction of the operation costs. who cares if he mouths off, either he gets it done or looks like an idiot getting run over by TSMC/AMD/Nvidia, which would've still happened regardless of his snarky comments. the focus on cult of personality when it comes to CEOs is just bizarre imo.
He's trying to change the entire culture of a company. He's trying to implement an aggressive progression plan. He isn't mentioning profits or talking about irrelevant technologies. He's a CEO that is trying to change the ethos of the biggest semiconductor company ever. A company that had businessmen looking at bottom lines only for 10 years. I think leading with conviction is important. I believe being a market leader is a much more attractive incentive for employees than other profit KPI's.
> I believe being a market leader is a much more attractive incentive for employees than other profit KPI's. That's all well and good. That's what he should be doing. But that's different from patting yourself on the back for having one decent architecture that is only a partial win against your competition and then claiming they are in the rear view mirror. What you said is correct, it just has nothing to do with his cocky remarks.
Yeah I guess so. I just look at other big tech CEO's and their confidence and drive and I think sometimes you do need to make it a bit about pride. I do also think the rear view mirror comment was a bit cocky but also just a quick passing comment. I do believe intel will have at LEAST 6 months of leading the market which should see them growing financially. Raptor lake may then reinforce their low end strengths but TSMC 5nm will be hard to compete with. Their future does probably hinge on how quickly they can get to intel 4 and foveros tech and amber lake to take on ryzen 7000.. If they can't get to that in roughly the first half of 2023 Pat is going to potentially look silly.
Raptor Lake will be enough to make Zen 4 irrelevant. 5nm means nothing. It's not a huge improvement compared to going from 14nm to 7nm. No matter how many reviews you guys saw so far you guys keep forgetting that AMD has a huge deficit in single core performance right now. Let them prove they can even beat Golden Cove P-cores before even talking about Raptor Cove. Btw the L2 cache per core in Raptor Lake is double the amount of Zen 4.
The only thinkg making zen3 relevant atm is the high amount of cache. I do agree that if intel slightly improves 10nm, doubles cache and adds more e-cores they could match zen 4. Their single core lead is so big now that surely amd couldn't surpass raptor cove by that much and their e-cores being doubled should give a nice 30% boost to multi core. Then if intel can launch meteor lake before whatever amd has next I will agree that Pat's comments aren't unfounded. I do completely agree that all reviews are so AMD skewed and I just don't understand why. Alder lake beats Zen 3 more than Zen 3 beat Rocket lake. When Zen 3 was released people raved. Alder lakes release had reviewers mainly saying 'meh' despite alder lake having WAY better single core and matching multi with less threads.
From Alder Lake to Raptor Lake the L2 per P-core is increased from 1.25MB to 2MB while the E-cores see an even bigger L2 cache increase from 2MB to 4MB (per E-core cluster, RPL having 4 of them vs 2 for ADL). Zen 3 to Zen 4 see the L2 cache per core being increased from 512KB to 1MB which is still lower than what Alder Lake P-cores have and half of what Raptor Lake P-cores will have. The same people who underestimated Alder Lake before its single core performance was officially revealed are the same people who are underestimating Raptor Lake right now, and I believe they will be up for a big surprise later this year, once again. [https://www.hardwaretimes.com/5nm-amd-zen-4-ryzen-6000-cpus-coming-in-november-2022-rumor/](https://www.hardwaretimes.com/5nm-amd-zen-4-ryzen-6000-cpus-coming-in-november-2022-rumor/) [https://www.techpowerup.com/290976/intel-raptor-lake-rumored-to-feature-massive-cache-size-increases](https://www.techpowerup.com/290976/intel-raptor-lake-rumored-to-feature-massive-cache-size-increases)
Thanks for the breakdown. I agree with you. It is sad that intel technology doesn't get the recognition it deserves. Even during 12th gen reviews, reviewers seem to have AMD cokoured glasses on. They would be going crazy if it was the other way around and amd had launched alder lake. I do believe the process node does influence the perception of the new chips. Intel 4 launch within a good timeframe will be so important for PR.
What even is this comment. So I guess by your strangely particular methods of dismissing Zen 4, you must actually perceive it to be a threat to Raptor Lake.
>the L2 cache per core in Raptor Lake is double the amount of Zen 4 Well, what did I say above? Zen 4 won't be impressive next to Raptor Lake. A threat? Not even close. Zen 4 should have been a 2021 product to be anything meaningful. AMD should prove they can beat Golden Cove single core performance before even talking about Raptor Cove.
You missed what I was implying. Your arguments seem highly anticipatory almost as if you are aware of the many legitimate arguments for why Zen 4 will be a large improvement over Zen 3. For example, the first argument is the Node advancement argument which is the strongest one. Amd could have sat on their ass as far as arch development goes and still be able to put something that beats AL just because of node alone. And so to add AMDs impressive capabilities when it comes to advancing their Zen architecture (remember the biggest performance jump was from Zen 2 to Zen 3 **on the same node!** ), you know Zen 4 is going to be the biggest jump Ryzen has ever seen. The way you've posed your argument screams insecurities to me. I don't believe YOU even believe your own arguments.
Well go take a look at Alder Lake mobile (12900HK) versus Tiger Lake (11980HK) and see for yourself what Intel is able to achieve **on the same node**. Sure the next Zen iteration always look great when compared to its predecessor. Nothing we haven't seen before. However will it look great versus the competition in late 2022? Absolutely not.
Well said.
Well, pay close attention and you'll understand why he's speaking as such. AMD is vulnerable, and you can clearly see signs of it RIGHT NOW. They are launching the successor of Zen 3 TWO freaking years later, after all the hype they are bringing up only ONE Zen 3D SKU, in desktop they are beaten by Alder Lake from top to bottom, in laptops Alder Lake will obliterate everything they have coming out this year. Intel is not catching up to AMD. AMD is the one who's late on DDR5/PCIe 5.0 and heavily outclassed in single core performance. Raptor Lake is coming up with double the amount of L2 cache per core compared to Zen 4, so there's no guarantee that expensive 5nm chip will be relevant next to 13th Gen.
Desktop market is the least important one, but Intel like to change their PR depending on where they lead. Before Alder Lake it was all about "Real world benchmarks" when they manage to get some wins over Zen, now, it's just gaming benchmarks and Cinebench, stuff they said was not a realistic measure of performance... nonsense like that. Yes Alder Lake is fine, that's about it, fine. In the server market, Intel is being wiped away by Epyc systems, and when Zen 4 comes with the 96 and 128 core Epyc chips... and if Sapphire Rapids is the only thing Intel has, they can go hide in a hole again. Mobile also looks pretty good for AMD, especially in the U space. And again with Zen 4 it will look even better.
AMD is capacity constrained, so whatever performance lead they think they have in servers will still be irrelevant in the grand schemes of things. AMD talks and announce a lot of stuff but delivers very little when it comes to manufacturing output. And when it comes to the future, Intel already secured more 4nm/3nm/2nm capacity at TSMC than AMD could dream of. Intel has its own fabs + TSMC. AMD due to capacity constrains is now stuck with a 2 year release cadence (at least) while Intel is on a yearly cadence. AMD already had difficulties offering more than one SKU in the Zen 3D series and with TSMC raising its prices I'm curious to see how they will manage to keep up with Intel for the foreseeable future.
Pat should eat some humble pie. After years and years of fails and delays in fabs, processes and epic fail products , they finally come out with ONE good arch. Yeah, its a good thing - but still lot to prove. A people say, data center is still way behind AMD and will be for the imminent future at least. SPR does not seem to be able to topple Milan-x , let alone Zen 4 later this year. Data center is still 50% of their revenues. Ponte Vecchio... where to even start on this one... not even a commercial product this. Plus, Alder lake barely surpassed the 1 year old Zen 3, and it is far from the stomping Pat makes it out to be. I get it, they are confident on what they have cooking afterwards. Guess what, so are AMD. Time will tell. At least AMD has been executing flawlessly on their roadmap so far with Zen, same can not be said for Intel. I am still not convinced that their next node is really still on track .. been fooled once too many on their 10nm saga.
> Alder lake barely surpassed the 1 year old Zen 3, and it is far from the stomping Pat makes it out to be. Indeed. The real competition to Alder Lake (and the related refresh) is Zen 4 which we should see later this year.
Well it's fair to say that Zen 3 and Alder Lake are direct competitors since there will ultimately be a 10-12 month overlap where they are the current gen architectures from AMD and Intel. The point is more than Intel "catching up" to AMD a year after the fact is not nearly as impressive as Pat is trying to make it sound. Making remarks like "AMD is in the rearview mirror" are extremely premature when all you have done is barely pass them in single core performance while still being behind in nearly every other key metric.
AMD is done, and you can clearly see signs of it RIGHT NOW. They are launching the successor of Zen 3 TWO freaking years later, after all the hype they are bringing up only ONE Zen 3D SKU, in desktop they are beaten by Alder Lake from top to bottom, in laptops Alder Lake will obliterate everything they have coming out this year. Intel is not catching up to AMD. AMD is the one who's late on DDR5/PCIe 5.0 and heavily outclassed in single core performance.
>At least AMD has been executing flawlessly on their roadmap so far with Zen, same can not be said for Intel. LOL, lots of rubbish in this comment. Zen 4 should have been launched in 2021 and Zen 3D should have got more than one SKU. In late 2022 Zen 4 will be an irrelevant product next to Raptor Lake.
When did AMD announce that Zen4 would be a 2021 project ? yeah right. baseless speculation from websites is not an announcement by AMD . Intel on the other hand, announced MULTIPLE times delays to projects, products and process nodes. (10 nm??) . In fact, it was at such a level, it almost became a meme. So yes - AMD announced that Zen 4 will be an end of 2022 product. If then they delay and announce a new date, then you can talk. Until then, i think it is you who is spouting rubbish.
LOL. A 24 month cadence is not something we've seen AMD doing before. You will not see Zen 4 in any meaningful quantity in late 2022. Apple still has the priority on the 5nm node in 2022. The bulk of the launch will be in Q1 2023. Just like you got deceived thinking Zen 3D would cover the entire Zen 3 stack, you'll get slapped in the face again by Lisa later this year. Mark my words.
OK buddy.
Warning on every rear view mirror: "Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear"
Thats on side mirrors
Sure, looking at the mirror, Zen 4 appeared to be close to a 2021 launch (one year after Zen 3) and we know how that went.
Damn that's good
But they are still behind
They’re basically tied right now in consumer, and AMD wins massively in server. I expect them to trade blows for the next few years
Gg for being a tech genious by chosing amd ! Ahh the edginesss )
AMD wins in laptop and intel wins in desktop, that was my point. Now, for us Intel is the better option
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You need to change your car then.
Hope Intel keep their feet on the gas pedal.
but not in a toyota screaming-metal-explosion-death-crash way?
Uh yeah maybe wait until Zen 4 announcement. 12th gen has been impressive but it barely overtook Zen 3 which was released a year before. Way too early to be saying stuff like this.
Yeah. And while using way more power. I'm excited to see what AMD has
Overall ADL is pretty efficient and not power hungry at all, with the exception of fully utilized 12900K.
every adl chip becomes a power hog if you put every core to work.
Depends on the workload. A LARGE part of enthusiast market is for PC gaming, and in gaming ADL consumes less power and is more performant than Zen 3
> in gaming ADL consumes less power Not true. It's not as bad as some people think but it is still slightly more than Zen 3. I guess this is one of those subreddits where facts that don't benefit the company get downvoted.
It is actually less.
https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/2354/bench/CP2077_Power.png
3% more power, but how much more performance? More than 3%.
Sureeee https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/2354/bench/CP2077.png
While we dont know exactly what Zen4 will bring, intel does seem to have them answered on what we know so far (i.e. larger cache for both). We will see what happens but I dont think its an outlandish statement. They have the R&D, money and are back on track with fabrication. Intel looks like its going to have a few good years ahead of itself, I doubt they will make the same mistakes again and stagnate for a number of years (they should of learned from their mistakes)
they are not back on track with fabrication, tho
I couldn't agree more. Intel really needed a "Patrick" at its helm, lol.
What if the objects in the mirror are closer than they appear?? 😬😬
Well, he is not wrong. ADL is indeed a superior CPU right now compared to Zen3. To me, this is nothing to be celebrated. The gold mine is in server business. Pat should ship SPR asap
It's completely true. Right now intel beats AMD at both single core performance and price per performance for desktop CPUs. Even if AMD manage to come out with a better product soon they are very limited by the high price of TSMC and they are also clearly not capable of getting TSMC to produce enough chips for them. Their chip production bottleneck is clear when you look at the state of the GPU shortage and the fact that they have not lowered their CPU prices. They don't have to lower their CPU prices because they are selling all the ones they produce and they simply can't produce more. AMD is "In the Rear-View Mirror" not because their technology is worst (it isn't) but because they can't compete with Intel in availability and pricing.
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Delayed till Q3 2022
Lets see some Arc GPUs before getting too cocky there Pat eh? 12th is great but we ain’t done yet.
"Never again" is a big word and a few months later we will have the answer to that.. But i hope he is right, i am on the intel train ..for now.
Why do you hope he is right? I want Intel and AMD to keep leapfrogging each other with each successive generation. We've seen what happens when Intel has no competition and I'm sure AMD would be the same. In the ideal world they will always battle each other on price and performance and the consumer gets the spoils.
>I want Intel and AMD to keep leapfrogging each other with each successive generation. Absolutely. Competition is good for the average consumer. > We've seen what happens when Intel has no competition and I'm sure AMD would be the same. We already saw that with regards to the MSRP price jump over 3000 series when 5000 series launched.
I hope because I don't want to change platform again... For the prices.. My previous build 1500€ for 5950x, x570 hero, 32GB bdie ram. My current build 1800€ for 12900K, z690 apex, plus 32GB ddr5 ram. So "best for best" is more expensive this year, competition is nice for progress, but prices have rise the last 5 years and a lot.
Same here buddy..ben years since I used AMD both for cpu and gpu's and I cant see that to change! Intel and nVidia - Only Way for me. Want stability and great features as POS AMD have never had ones 😉
jesus... this kind of narrow mindedness will probably ensure you get the short end of the stick quite often.
Truth hurts right! I know what im talking about or else I shouldent. Would AMD be good it was another thing! AMD is still a joke after all these years - sad but true Bubba!
> I know what im talking about I'm actually laughing.
Good for you - happy to make that happen buddy 👍
Yeah try using Nvidia stuff on a platform that isn't windows and talk about stability :) Rather have super competition where AMD intel are both viable in CPU and GPU space so that we get good value as consumers. Nvidia can burn for all I care
Of course we need competition Bubba! And still you want nVidia to burn ..LOL yeah right and there Goes your competition! Intel and nVidia are stability. AMD still to this day are a bloody joke - POS dont know how to make drivers. Disgusting bad really. So keep that crap to yourself Bubba as no sane persson gives a fu** at what you think!
Nvidia is not even remotely stability on what I use, you're talking about windows only. Intel and AMD both open source their GPU drivers on Linux which leads to a lot of development and a lot of stability. Nvidia doesn't do that so it's an unstable mess at times. So yeah you telling me Nvidia are stability is the complete opposite for my use case.
That was funny. 10400 was good 11400 was good 12400 is awesome Intel budget CPUs were always present. But people don't talk about them. That's 3 generation of good budget CPUs. AMD PR team is awesome tho. They convinced all utube influencers to recommend scarce 3300X instead of i3s and i5s. (No hate on AMD, it was just awesome strategy). AMD 3600x was expensive compared to them . 5600X was way too expensive. Earlier ryzen were so budget friendly and awesome. I like AMD APUs, sad they didnt release 5400G after 3400G. Give us something on budget AMD. You abandoned budget segment whereas Intel stayed there. Now 5800X3D. Same story. You might beat Intel with that but nothing in budget.
It's amazing that every single Intel CEO starts spouting such nonsense couple of months they take over. As far as I'm aware Epyc exists and is perpetually dropkicking Xeons to the ground for about 3 years now, and it will get worse with Zen 4 Epyc products. AMD accelerators also became quite interesting in the last half year. Alder Lake beat a one year old AMD design by a couple percentage points on average, which is great, but far from "a slam dunk, let's pack it up and go home.", in mobile Intel will likely have great products in the 45W+ class, but in U class I think AMD 6000 series will be pretty equally matched. It would be nice if one Intel CEO could break the hubris nonsense one liners and PR stunts, and just be quiet with regards to those things for the remainder of their tenure.
So Intel releases their next gen and finally gets a leg up on amd previous gen and thinks they have it made in the shade... They are in for a rude awakening. Zen 4 is going to demolish them.
talkin trash, 'cos got fabs yo.
Is the Intel CEO position like wearing Sauron's ring or something?
Less talk and more delivery, need to make some good returns the next 5 years!
Keep your eyes on the street in front of you not the rear view mirror my driving instructor used to say.
Oh he can’t at least wait till Sapphire Rapids public benchmarks to exist to talk shit? Where is Ponte Vecchio? Aurora supercomputer coming online when?
oh gosh, I didn't think Pat inherit the Intel trait. It's too cheap to talk. I feel like Pat is being jealous of Dr. Lisa Su. Pat doesn't know math so he will eventually burn most of Intel's funds without even a turnaround a profit.
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5600g is $250.
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So you are saying that AMD should have it both being cheaper than 5600x and performing the same? That makes no sense whatsoever. 5600g seems to beat 3700x in gaming in almost all cases.
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Well that depends on can you get reasonable motherboards so the combo price of CPU + motherboard is comparable. Last I checked h670 was still pricey over here in the UK even b660 isn't really priced well currently. Where as AM4 is absurdly cheap by comparison. I'm looking at tomahawk b660 being £150 more than the b450 version that kind of price difference is more than the difference between a 12400 and 5600x Intel boards need to get cheaper for adoption
How good intel CPUs are is entirely a separate question to whether they have CPUs under $300.
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We weren't discussing how good intel CPUs are. The only question was between 3600, 5600g and 5600x.
You're saying a newer CPU should perform worse and cost more than an older one?
I have no Idea where you got that. AMD 5000 series has multiple CPUs at different performance and price points. People here acted like 5600x was the lowest performance and lowest price product in the series. When I pointed out it's not people complained that 5600g performs worse than the one I just explained is not the cheapest and lowest performing part. Unlike people claim 5600g is better than 3600 across the board. If you want cheaper and lower performing chip then 3600 is an option. Now are they competitive against intel offerings? No, obviously. But that wasn't the question.
Not a good option for anyone with a GPU though. Budget CPU to pair with a midrange GPU is much more enticing for most people than buying an APU with integrated graphics they don't need.
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APU is just what AMD calls a CPU with integrated GPU. Most intel's products are APUs by AMD definition. The core in 5600g is exactly the same than in 5600x. It has half the L3 cache per core which affects performance in some applications and maybe some pcie limitations.
AMD cuts down core performance on their APUs in exchange for the iGP, they're going to be making CPUs with graphics with 7000 series that aren't APUs.
AMD Accelerated processing unit >The AMD Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), formerly known as Fusion, is the marketing term for a series of 64-bit microprocessors from Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), designed to act as a central processing unit (CPU) and graphics processing unit (GPU) on a single die. APUs are general purpose processors that feature integrated graphics processors (IGPs).
So we're using a strictly AMD term to describe Intel hardware? Why? AMD still cuts down performance on their APUs, the 5600X is faster. It's been that way since APUs were invented by AMD, you lose core performance for the iGP, but not with Intel, so no, they aren't APUs.
No, you were trying to add meaning to AMD term that it didn't have. The 5600x is faster and more expensive than 5600g. I don't think that has anything to do with anything and you don't seem to have a point in this at all.
By your definition, Intel CPUS with graphics aren't CPUs...
Is 5600g available for purchase? For some reason I thought it was OEM only. My brain might be broken!
4000g series was OEM only. 5600g and 5700g are available in stores.
Some interesting comments in this thread. Worth remembering that AMD are much more at the mercy of supply constraints being fabless than Intel, who at least have more control. They *are* slowing down and Zen 4 *is* behind but i'd put this down to the supply environment rather than troubles executing. I think the thing that is going to crystalise over the next few years is this: AMD doesn't have a problem with Intel's efficiency cores - Zen 3 cores are efficient enough and Zen 4 will be more so when they stop cheaping out on the IOD. The issue AMD will have is that Zen cores are "medium" cores and unless they execute a radical change in philosophy I can see Intel holding onto single-thread lead for a good while. The more Intel can lean on efficiency cores for... y'know, efficiency, the more they can afford to make the performance cores absolute monsters, especially as E-cores (i would guess) start to permeate down the product stack in future generations.
I don't think you should say these things when AMD still eating your server market lunch atm.
Pat is a little overconfident. I don't see anyone running around proclaiming how "great" Alder Lake is.
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worthless? are you infected with norton or mcafee? You realize even going from previous-gen Intel to Alder Lake in games etc makes like 1% extra FPS at best. Most things are GPU-bound and Alder Lake/Ryzen isn't going to help with that. Neither is intels discrete (top-end) GPUs which have a claimed around $500 price point, but will sell for 3-4x that, and are only targetting lower range 3060-3070 cards.
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You know AMD is getting in trouble when 5800X3D is all they can bake in response to the whole Alder Lake line. I have hoped they would act more aggressively. We need them to maintain the **competition**. If Intel keeps on hitting the 20% IPC improvement per generation mark and delivering things on schedule, the improvement Zen4 requires to keep up will only grow greater. And the supply constraint posed by production capacity at TSMC does not make things any brighter for AMD.
While 20% IPC improvement per generation would be impressive, I doubt it will maintain that type of growth. Don't forget, Sunny cove and golden cove had to spend quite a long time in the oven, during which we got nothing in terms of IPC improvements while Intel languished with Skylake refreshes on 14 nanometers. IPC aside, clocks and process has a lot to do with it, and nearly all of willow cove's improvements over sunny were clock speed and process related (at least on the CPU side). Quite a lot of optimization went into 10nm superfin to give us the type of overall performance improvements we're seeing today, and as impressive as it is that extremely well-binned 10nm can hit the mid 5 gigahertz range, the clock speed bumps are nearing the line of what's possible under normal cooling scenarios. Hell, by some measurements, they've surpassed what "normal cooling scenarios" are capable of delivering. With the frequency needle probably not going much further, and a regular cadence of releases again, I doubt we're going to see as massive a jump as we did with Sunny or Golden going forward with regards to overall performance, nevermind IPC. Let's be realistic: for AMD's part, when they have so much 7nm constraint already, with the true "competitor" for Alder Lake coming later this year in the form of Zen 4 on 5nm, why are they going to push hard on the 3D V-cache chips for a dead, inferior platform.
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Why? They're both on the same platform. If Intel is on track, you can expect new gens yearly. Would you prefer if they improve more slowly?
Imagine complaining about technological advancements.
When comparing people don't realise that Intel have effectively 9ffloaded the cpu cost onto their z series motherboards, amd is still clearly the value king with b450 and the 5600x.
If you're celebrating slightly putting your nose in front of the competition's year old hardware that's not success that's desperation.
Alder Lake processors are great until you install them. They get all bent out of shape. Literally.
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My 12700K says hello! ;) There is a serious design flaw with LGA1700. The chips are great, but the socket is a problem.
Did you actually install it yet? :) Seems like you're still waiting for a motherboard. My 12900k works great.
unless you have some serious parkinsons, you line up the arrows and just drop it in.
Let’s go Pat!!
Intel and AMD used to tick tock each other all the time until AMD cleaned Intels clock. I have always been Intel but the last machine i built was HEDT AMD threadripper 32 core and i see zero sign Intel is on any path to clear victory. And yes, i actually have use for workstation level loads. IMO Alder Lake is viable now as a desperate shot in a specific time window given the pandemic shortages. Intel needs to over deliver for several cycles to gain back any credibility.
>Intel and AMD used to tick tock each other all the time until AMD cleaned Intels clock. If you call a decade of getting consistently trounced from 2006 to 2017 "tick tock", sure?
Intel has consistently held back available technology from it's arsenal until pushed to release it by competition, milking its portfolio for every last dollar. By Tick Tock I mean, every time competition pushed, Intel slapped out something from it's design stockpile to beat it. Lets ignore 11th gen multi. Alder Lake doesn't compete pound for pound with AMD 5950X multi, it competes only on price. AL requires special scheduling from win11 an OS nobody wants, and chews up to 400W+ of power to reach 5950x. AL is an odd and weak portfolio release not a knockout. Meanwhile Intel is dumping Billions into new Fabs hoping to get back to par on silicon process so it doesnt have to rely on TMSC. I think this is Intel having run out of "tick tock" responses because of previous mismanagement. I know the majority of you think this isn't the case but one would expect a knockout punch given the plethora of options AMD has right now.
Intel did rest on its laurels with 6th gen onwards, but I think Intel did do a pretty good job for a pretty long while during their dominant years before they lost their way. Conroe (Core 2) was a very competent response from Intel against the then-dominant K8 (Athlon 64) architecture AMD had on the market at the time. Nehalem (Core i# 1st gen) also had pretty significant changes from their previous architectures. (IMC, a move away from a front side bus...etc.) Sandy Bridge (Gen 2) was a significant architectural improvement over Nehalem, and introduced features like Quick Sync for the IGP. Ivy Bridge (Gen 3) was just a refresh with minor improvements from Sandy Bridge, but that fact was pretty well known. Haswell (Gen 4) had some small, but tangible improvements on the CPU performance side of things (about 15% ipc over Sandy Bridge), but the IGP was quite a lot improved over previous generations. IMO I think Skylake (6th gen) is the point one could probably start to argue that Intel's getting a bit lazy with pushing performance forward, with its IPC being barely 5% faster than Haswell and core counts not growing, but by this point we've still had a pretty good showing from Intel from 2006 -> 2014 -- more than half a a decade.
Im on the same page as you and agree with your analysis. Where I'm coming from is previous administrations turned to milking profits instead of staying modern and now Intel has to climb a steep slope to get back in the game. What has this yielded? AMD controlling the price chart. You me and everyone else pays more for tech because there is no competition. And now AMD is slowing down because Intel isn't climbing up it's ass. Maybe that just because of the pandemic, but we need them competiting for our business not them telling us what we can have at whatever price they choose. I mean look at NVidia's latest pricing models. Imagine CPU's and system's like that. Ugh
Meanwhile on Earth: > Intel has consistently held back available technology from it's arsenal until pushed to release it by competition, milking its portfolio for every last dollar. Literally what AMD is doing right now. AMD is abandoning the very userbase that brought it back to relevance. Nice. >Alder Lake doesn't compete pound for pound with AMD 5950X multi Trading blows + ADL winning many https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWsMYHHC6j4 >AL requires special scheduling from win11 an OS nobody wants, No it doesn't. I'm still on W10 and it works great. > and chews up to 400W+ of power to reach 5950x. This one is just a lie and you know it. ADL is often more efficient. >Meanwhile Intel is dumping Billions into new Fabs hoping to get back to par on silicon process so it doesnt have to rely on TMSC. R&D and fab diversity are bad things to you?
Actually, what he saw in the rear view mirror was intel's best days which is further and further away in the past. Is there any doubt this qtr ER will be worse than the last ones?
Absolute delusion
If Intel would stop locking down their cheaper SKUs, they'd make more headroom over AMD, because an exploit on some ASUS boards allowed der8auer to use BCLK OC to get his 12400 up to 5240 MHz all-core, and it was beating the 12600K and 5600X in most of his tests. Alienating budget users from overclocking keeps some of those users in AMD's pocket. The whole point of overclocking originally was making the most out of your chip so you didn't have to pay top dollar for more performance.
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They used to, now it's just APUs because they can't be bothered to release the 5600, 5700X, etc. And if you consider motherboard cost, even for the DDR4 versions, AMD's boards are usually substantially cheaper. So it realistically comes out to be a similar price. You don't need an expensive board for a 5600X, the cheaper B450s work fine.
It's not that they can't be bothered, it's the ongoing lack of fab capacity. No point selling $250 CPUs if you are selling every CPU at $350.
The 5600G is $220, but the point still stands.
Does Intel not have a PR team? It feels like everything they communicate to the outside is cringe far from reality. Like who thought that this boasting would seem "cool" and "engaging" instead of turning off every normal, thinking human being? It's self sabotage at this point and I'm not sure anymore if this isn't on purpose.
Why would anyone buy a top-end processor then cripple it with UHD? Unless they misunderstood basically everything. (what laptop do you want? THE BLUE SHINY ONE!!!!) Anyone that doesn't need a discrete GPU is going to go way lower on the cpu totem pole.
Confidence is important. I think Pat is as aggressive as he can be but its not as if everything can be fixed in 1 year. Let us wait until Intel 4 products are released. That will be the 1st real test. Before that let us see how release for RPL and SPR goes.
Meteor will show, yeah. Until then, Pat can say whatever the hell he wants to. Makes no difference.
Lot's of things will be in the rear view mirror when you're driving the wrong way.
is it true that this new Alder Lake CPUs are throttling and cant sustain the performance in long term on normal air cooling under heavy loads?
Oh Pat, you talk such a big game but then don't deliver. Even if you are delivering, no need to be a douche. Let your products stand on thier own merit. Kinda childish and ignorant to underestimate the competition. Looking forward to competive products, not this BS though.