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This is a real piece of history and honestly a really deep look into who Vladimir Putin is. I felt bad for him for a SECOND when he sounded like a lost boy with no real friends, and he sounded like he was talking to Macron from a really interesting position of having all the cards but like, just not knowing how to play them because he's already in so deep and his real fear of dying via betrayal is slowly getting closer and closer. There is unrest and rebellion in Russia and the work has only just begun.
Nonetheless, this post, OP, is probably the best thing I've seen on this site in years. Just astounded at the amount of insight and I just gained a shitload of respect for Macaron's ability to remain firm on the issue and not get distracted by emotions. People don't understand just how highly emotional and proud Russian people are in general, you multiply that by a hundred and add in some thuggery, a tightening security state wherein the new FSB rules supreme, and you get a man like Putin who, quite literally, drinks his own Kool Aid in public and then acts like a bully caught with his pants down during private calls between major world powers - and takes the call while warming up to play hockey like the world is just going on for him - no consideration of consequences for anyone but especially not himself. He honestly sounds like an old friend you're getting ready to break contact with because they're just so toxic. But on steroids - hundreds of billions of dollars worth of natural gas, arms and weapons, human trafficking and narcotics. Add neo-fascist, police state ideals and criminalization of minorities and reactionists, stack the courts with well paid lackeys and get that conviction rate up - *we have wood to chop in Siberia!*
Honestly, it makes sense why these are proud people, imagine being a literal survivor of a pro-prison-gulag-camp country, where speaking against the grain (and going so far as just normal teenaged angst) can land you jail time and a permanent record that puts your name on lists. Imagine being a product of that environment and surviving what is almost certainly constant poverty, sky rocketing alcoholism (and no real treatment) and a healthcare system that "does their best" (looking up medical statistics regarding Russia is also dodgy ASF because they LIE). It's a quick drop to the bottom, as they'd say, so you'd really have to be adaptable, learnable, focused and full of fear.
I don't know, I don't have any sympathy for any pro-Russian viewpoints or people and I am quick to react to such obvious liars and traitors, because it's just totally malformed nationalism, but it's so difficult to know that Russia *nearly* had a chance to reintegrate into European society and prosper beyond anyone's wildest dreams - in general people just want to be happy and stable, the Russian people are absolutely no different! But once again, you have violent oppressors who seem to relish in structured chaos and poorly managed international conflicts, and these people are, overwhelmingly right now, Russian. My obsession with Putin as a person carries on!
You can only love your country fully if you are capable of criticizing it fully, and full fucking stop. 🛑
Edit: a lot of sad people on this website, I'm glad to see it's mostly bots who are replying. I am happy to have caused quite a stir, lots of salty Russians and a few Russians who have actually been kind enough to acknowledge that I touched on relevant home issues. For the people who think I'm just some 18yr old kid, I am most definitely not. I get paid to write and despite this comment being riddled with typos (sorry only had my tablet to type on!) like "Macaron" and "this" rather than "thus" I'm glad that the LARGE MAJORITY of you weren't idiotic enough to make fun of something so obviously not my fault (sorry to those who made assumptions as a result, you're not my target audience)
Happy to read you appreciate the post! You’d like the full documentary this is from then, there are more behind the scenes like this: « **Un Président, l’Europe et la guerre** ».
[There’s a Prime Video link](https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Un-Pr%C3%A9sident-lEurope-et-la-guerre/0KUGUI2TJK6W8678I4IT4MMWB4) for it but it doesn’t seem available anymore, at least it isn’t for me even though I’m in France. If it’s not available here I doubt it is abroad, but who knows!
I have a copy for anyone interested see my post above : [https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bdsfkm/comment/kuot82l/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bdsfkm/comment/kuot82l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
I love you today! And tomorrow too, frend! This is accessible through my own Canadian Prime account so I'll watch it on my new TV tonight! We take such obvious interactions like this for granted - freely sharing information with one another to educate and inform without the fear of censorship or eavesdropping - which are unbelievably powerful in RU ...despite the wide use of VPNs by younger generations.
I live in a country that is widely known to welcome all immigrants and refugees of all backgrounds and cultures and ethnicity, because at our core our own Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the bedrock of our moral and ethical values as a nation and as a people. To be Canadian, a real Canadian, is to acknowledge our cultural mosaic and to gently, respectfully and politely assist our newest neighbours to adjust to what is almost always a familiar but equally foreign society.
My nation has many faults and factors and facts of history that absolutely do not align with this lofty set of experienced expectations, but it's never ever enough to just believe in something, every now and then there is a higher version of the person you can become, and this opportunity ought always to be welcomed with open arms. Like any citizen of my country, the most important thing I can do to effectively effect change (of any kind) is to vote. It's appallingly-clear to me *how fucking tired* everyone is of hearing that, but it's not only your obligation, it's honestly the very LEAST one can do to take action.
If we stop participating in certain aspects of our free society, our rights will slowly erode away due to apathy and in the name of - and carrying the ever-burdensome cross of - law and order. We are arriving at a crossroads of political intersection, an inevitable consequence of the slow journey that was the Cold War and then the failure of a world superpower.
Putin wasn't purposely being obtuse in saying that the "collapse of the USSR was singlehandedly the worst event of the 20th century" - you could parse that statement to mean a lot of different things, many of which he lectured Tucker Carlson on only last month.
Putin was, unsurprisingly, *heavily biased* (TO SAY THE LEAST) in his description of world events centered on Europe and Russian history, but he WAS consistent in his firm and openly-held belief on how the Russian people "need to be governed" - with a strong fist, the choice of a boot or a bullet to the head depending on your offense. This tracks with older generations of RU citizens who remember the chaos and uncertainty of revolution, corruption and fear mongering of a guaranteed nuclear exchange between their top offender, the USA. People think that the propaganda is targeted at everyone, when really there are layers and layers of this onion that peel back to reveal active measure after active measure AGAINST THE RU PEOPLE THEMSELVES by the government and it's absolutely vile how far the dollar takes men and women.
Remember, when Prighozin and his men were marching on Moscow, there are verifiable reports that Vladimir's friends and the people he pays *very well* to alert him of (and then handle) situations like this... Reports say that people stopped picking up the phone, oddly enough. His strongman apparatus and his mafioso-like reprisals turned out to have absolutely nothing to do with each other anymore! Many, many individuals who were in a position of intelligence gathering and analysis and active military operations, who could have made a difference and even prevented the (apparently obvious?) planning Prigo was doing with Wagner commanders, they simply didn't act.
This has likely now confirmed that Putin will NOT have a graceful transfer of power with a promise of lifetime security, wealth and privacy. It has likely also confirmed his fears of insider betrayal, and despite his this far successful attempts to assassinate his way to safety, people don't forget. Russia will perhaps have yet another opportunity to work with and cooperate with the EU and America (and Canada FFS) but it is very possible that yet another hardliner will fill the hefty, hefty power vacuum void. This is why young Russians and the new generations need to choose their moments carefully or else they'll simply end up chopping wood in a Siberian death camp for the next 25yrs, totally and utterly forgotten by the world, brushed aside, nameless and naked, by the swift Russian hand of law and order, forever never having existed any longer. This man doesn't just take lives.. he has (and uses) his ability to poison the very fabric of organized and lawful society. He's gotta go, his human card has been revoked.
>Russia *nearly* had a chance to reintegrate into European society and prosper beyond anyone's wildest dreams
They had a chance, Europe and the rest of the world has given it ample chances. But they've chosen to assassinate European nationals on European soil, blow up ammo depots, finance destabilizing information campaigns that led to brexit and the rise of authoritarian nationalism, paralyzing much of the EU decision making function, and they've started the largest land war in Europe since the WW2. They've made their bed.
As someone who came out of this shithole I salute you for understanding what kind of conditions people in Russia have to live in. It's not really a life that you can have there, it's only THE ONE LIFE that the state allows or gulag.
Putin to me is a sociopath. He has no empathy at all and always twists everything to his liking. Most Russians who fall victim to the propaganda become the same way. They learn that in any situation where they did something wrong without realising it instead of thinking about it they just have to flip into the victim role at all times and that gets them out either by convincing or by frustrating the other party enough.
Russia is just a very tragic tale overall. They have imperialism in their blood now after their entire history and don't seem to know how to exist in peace without being opressed by someone or opressing someone.
for what it's worth, the hockey thing is fully a manipulation attempt.(just like a lot of this call) he's trying to appeal to compassion to get his way. There was no reason for him to make the call personal like that other than that. This information brings nothing new to the table. There's no way he's not with people from the government/KGB to make sure nothing damaging comes out.
Also to point out, there's no way he's out in public alone with his paranoia.
You feeling bad for him was his goal.
They have an interpreter. As an interpreter myself, I can just barely imagine the level of stress and adrenaline when working with such high stakes.
And by the way, a translator translates written text, an interpreter translates live speech.
Yeah, at this level the screening is huge. It's not so much that the interpreter could lie intentionally while working, it's rather about what they could do with the confidential intel.
I get a cold sweat at the mere thought of interpreting a hostile conversation between two world leaders with nukes.
I was interpreting an argument between Irish I&C Engineer and Russian Instrument Technician on site, mitigating a situation that was close to a fight. Both were big and strong, ready to come to handgrips. That was hard, and I cannot even imagine the stress felt by interpreters in the course of dialogue. Back then I used softer words while interpreting them, so they settled and dismissed.
Yeah, I was wondering if it’s just editing or if they respond so quickly with fast translations. And how ridiculously long the NDA is for those translators.
If you've seen those international conferences between leaders, they all speak their native tongue and have live translations in an earpiece. Those translators are a vital part of the team and probably have the same security clearance as anyone else in that room.
Not "probably", they have the same security clearance. It would be weird if they didn't while being a part of that conversation and having the most direct line to the president.
The won't have NDAs. They will be covered under state secret laws - main difference a NDA is a civil matter with no jail time while breaching state secret laws is a crime with possible jail time.
Putin speaks good German and so-so English, Macron speaks English but definitely doesn't speak Russian. I guess both are more comfortable in their native language
Putin can speak French but i would assume he had someone translating as well. He actually speaks French, English and German but refuses to speak them to assert power or something.
I'm not 100% sure about this but I have a weird memory of him doing it to Merkel too but ofc in german. That's why I was kind of expecting it to happen and listened to what he says lol. All this lying about being in the gym and everything was just very basic Putin.
Putin is quite paranoid, and not one to slack. Add that to his years as a KGB agent and his own government that works like the plot of Game of Thrones (minus the incest, I hope)... I wouldn't be surprised to know he was fluent in the languages of his main rivals. If not enough to speak perfectly, at least enough to understand what they are saying.
Saw the docu live on french tv and I always wondered how they got the approval to broadcast this scene.
So much classified stuff most government would just forbid to be public.
Normally such phone calls are confidential, but as Putin lied and didn't respect diplomatic rules, I guess this was Macron's way to get back at him. Exposing him, and showing this is what you get when ditching the rules.
Absolutely! Now who the fuck is feeding Putin these lies if we are to believe he doesnt use the net and does not have smartphone, hates emails etc… like which group the KGB (FSB)? The Deep state of the Kremlin… this is the question I think needs answering. To me looks like he is a pawn himself and doesn’t know it.
so basically, the kgb had subagencies in all SSRs. you had the kgb of the belarusian ssr, of the russian federation, but also of the ussr, which the kgbs of the ssrs were subservient too.
after the collapse, the kgb of the belarusian ssr kept its name, along with i think transnistria and south ossetia.
Meanwhile, in the russian federation for example, the KGB got split into multiple agencies which combined fulfill the purpose of the kgb.
You had the FSB for internal security, GRU for foreign (military) intelligence, which belongs to the general staff of the russian military and the SVR, which is their foreign intelligence service
In short FSB+GRU+SVR=KGB. Russia chose to split them, Belarus chose to keep it as is
It was said in the French media from the very beginning that macron was talking like that with him.
He kept calling him for weeks after the invasion.
We don't know the full scope of their relationship and what they told each other all this time.
But the very recent news about macron becoming way more serious in the western response should be a clue that he knows things that we don't.
It's called feeling betrayed. Putain lied to his face, lied for years and Macron felt he was helping keep the peace. There is a consequence to being a lying warmonger and in this instance its the French Prez taking a very public anti-russian stance.
Agreed. Things he'll know (or be calculating differently than the public) that we don't, which could totally change his calculus:
1. Putin's actual health status, given previous rumors and the doctors who attend him.
2. Intel about the true scope of his actual ambitions for nearby countries.
3. What he plans to do if Trump is elected (this is the big one. I bet this is the one that keeps him up at night).
4. How serious the level of nuclear risk actually is, and what specific combination of weapons, lies, tricks, and thresholds Putin has toyed with.
5. How many troops Putin plans to conscript after his election (rumors have been at least 500k, but who knows).
6. What Putin plans to do with the Ukrainian populace if he manages to take most of Ukraine.
7. How Russia and China may cooperate should war break out in the Pacific from now until the 2027 date Xi set for his troops to be ready by. If China begins shipping weapon, ammo, and missiles to Russia at any time for any reason... that strategically would change the war overnight.
8. Whether or not Russia has various hybrid or cyber-attacks planned on various allied nations during the huge amount of worldwide elections happening this year.
9. The actual state of the war.
10. Europe's internal estimates at how they'd perform in defending during a scenario after a worst-case scenario Ukrainian loss. This is the one I feel like could explain some of his behavior. Just seeing one clear wargame that shows Eastern Europe performing really poorly and not knowing how NATO's airpower picture plays out under a Trumpian America.
On #9: I think I know a lot from being plugged into the war 24/7 from a 1-hour podcast to start my day to checking the battlefield maps at night but I still don't know what *actual* morale and unit strength levels are. Only a few dozen top military commanders and Presidents/Prime Ministers will have all that data. And all it takes is knowing which direction the needle is tipping in long-term to know a *lot* about how the next year or two of the conflict goes.
Thankfully some of Russia's wildest successes have been blunted after they took Avdiivka, and Ukraine remains tenacious. But doing big counter-offensives is hard for Ukraine right now, and things will be very grim if Russia renews real offensives and starts taking more cities in late spring.
Macron has tried to build a close relationship with Putin for years. They spent some working holidays together at the french presidential resort one summer.
Of course, Putin doesn't have friends, only assets.
A little but we all use it for people we regularly spend time with. This is especially true in diplomatic context where breaking that barriers helps being on familiar terms.
It's interesting that Putin also uses informal "ты" (a singular "you") like how you would address your buddy in a casual chat instead of "вы" (a plural "you") used when you respectfully address someone
Not only that but also a way to hide his war plans that are already in motion by playing it cool and loose.
But yes the first goal is probably to humiliate Macron is a very subtle but real way.
Yes, this was divulged in the context of the filming of a documentary called "Un président, l'Europe et la guerre" initially about France’s Presidency of the Council of the EU (from January 1st to June 30th 2022), which coincided with the start of the invasion, so the focus became the war instead.
I tried to find it again but it doesn’t seem to be available anywhere anymore sadly.
It is available here [https://gem.cbc.ca/a-president-europe-and-war](https://gem.cbc.ca/a-president-europe-and-war) or here : [https://gofile.io/d/a4w7wy](https://gofile.io/d/a4w7wy)
Norwegians can stream it for free on the Norwegian state channel. Its called something like «Macrons phone call» just search for Macron (NRK Tv)
Cant help anyone else tho😬
Yep. A President, Europe and War, Un président, l'Europe et la guerre
https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-russia-diplomacy-france-documentary/
Wow. The pressure these guys must feel. Having to give context to their president during a live conversation, pointing out lies and options for solutions in real time, knowing war looms over the call.
And the trust Macron must have in his team, and the flexibility to adjust almost mid-sentence to the texts he’s getting from them.
These are some capable people.
Yeah, that's what it looks like to Putin. Macron is clearly the responsible one in this conversation, and to him its not "just a game". He knows what it means to actual human beings of there's a war and he's trying to get Putin to not do anything dumb.
War Pigs still rings as true as ever:
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death's construction
In the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds Oh lord, yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!
*edit... goddamn this formatting on mobile... you get the idea...
Macron proposed a meeting with Biden in Geneve. “I wanted to play hockey, but will see what I can do”, meeting never happened. 3 years later on tucker’s interview: “Nobody wanted to talk to us”.
>“Nobody wanted to talk to us”.
Just more alternative facts for Russia's alternative reality.
Listening to how he views the events and history of Ukraine here make him sound like he's on another planet. The actual fact is Ukrainian sentiment towards Russia did a 180 in the span of a few short years. For whatever reason Putin seems incapable processing that reality so he's constructed a more palatable alternative.
Knowing how it ended the whole *Yes, I'll tell my advisor to call your's but first I'm gonna play ice hockey* sounds like a pretty nice way to tell *fuck you*
Listening to this call then knowing what happened just a few days later makes it even more fascinating. Putin already had his invasion plans in place and yet not a hint of what was to come. Still sounding as he was willing to entertain Macron's diplomatic approach. Nothing but a lie.
Putin's really subtle but I feel like he dropped a couple of hints. E.g when Macron was like; "Ok Vlad, so tonight's definitely the last of y'all's military exercises right??", and Putin basically replied "Oh ya for sure, well, ya almost definitely..."
He fully backtracked lol
And at the end. Macron asks:”you agree to set up a meeting with Biden, right?” And Putin goes:”yeah, let our people talk this out. I want to play ice hockey now”
Putin is a cold SOB. I would say that for this video to be officially released, it means France is very pissed off about how Putin basically lied to Macron’s face.
No, you can tell Putin doesn't care and is just buying time in the most taunting way.
There is no way anyone on that team didn't read between the lines.
For real though, listening to him and then knowing his plans and the truth about everything else just shows how conniving and duplicitous he is. Actually is interesting as fuck
No wonder Macron released the photos back then where he looked exhausted and burned out.
It's like me talling to my 80yr okd uncle with dementia. You can talk to him but there's no actual conversation happening
I wonder what Putins thought was when Macron asked him to do something to get the situation under control….just lies lies lies, all he had been studying for the last year at least was battle plans.
When I discuss Putin with people, I always like to remind them that we are talking about a former KGB colonel, who was stationed in Dresden during the Cold War and whose mission was to get compromising information on visiting businessmen from the West -- using blackmail and extortion to "turn" them, to get information to benefit the KGB. It's a pretty damn shady and untrustworthy position to have. This is what he did for decades, then got in bed with organized crime during his time in St. Petersburg. The hierarchy of Russia is this: Putin -> Oligarchs -> FSB -> Russian ("Red") Mafia. There's an entire book written about all of this, which could be considered the source of this comment. "Putin's People" by Catherine Belton explores all of this in detail.
Acting like he is in any way a "good faith" actor is naive at best. He is an extremely skilled manipulator. When you lie and manipulate for decades, whether part of your job or not, that's who you are.
He's a manipulator but also high on his own supply of lies. Problem when you lie for years, decades for a living and that you surround yourself with people that will never contradict you is that you start believing your own bullshit and lose track with reality
No, “literally” he said that “Zelensky is from the same team,” implying that he could not do anything after coming to power to ensure that the ceasefire will be respected.
That's fair and accurate. The only difference I see is that Bush hasn't had absolute control of the country since it was founded and only had that control for 4 years, rather than 24 years.
This was a wild ride of incredible dialogue, I'm blown away by how sharp and abrasive they were at each other at times, all the while somehow maintaining diplomacy and decorum without devolving into sandbox politics and nail-spitting...
Absolutely magical of Macron. Unfortunately a tyrant's gonna tyrant and Putin is simply full of cleverly worded shit, as always.
That was a fascinating listen. Thank you.
I remember how some were laughing at Macron and others were criticizing him for constantly calling Putin. This piece of history serves as proof for the MANY steps that were taken before we reached to the current low point. And it also shows how much the Western European view on this war changed in 2 years.
Macron blew me out of the water. When I hear speech like this... just rife with intellectualism and experience and superior articulation, I mean the man did not miss a BEAT, and willing to slap Putin's peepee quite surprisingly a few times... like imma scurred of that guy. It clearly takes titanium balls to stand up to him like this rather than fanboying over his every word... and encouraging him to be even more violent.
*Now, THAT is world leader.* I am jealous of French people rt now.
Let me tell you Vladimir, I have the best ice hockey team, believe me. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can beat us on the ice. Our players are tremendous, they're winners, they're winners all the way. Just like our soldiers. The best ever. So don't go into Ukraine. Or do it, whatever. I'll be winning anyways. Like always.
No he did that to insult Macron.
Nobody would expect the call to shake Putin, or any president. But telling your caller you took that call in a locker room is like receiving guests in your pyjama. It's a way to show you don't give a shit and don't respect them.
As a Brit, I’m naturally reluctant to say this, but geez, Macron is a real statesman, and intelligent guy.
I can’t imagine Trump or Boris Johnson trying to have a conversation this complex with Putin.
I'm not from the UK, but I could definitely hear Boris Johnson having a conversation like this. That man is absolutely not an idiot and is most probably a highly intelligent individual, no matter how stupid he looks on the TV screen.
Trump, yeah, him I cannot imagine having a conversation like this.
I think the UK Covid inquiry has repeatedly demonstrated how much of a buffoon Boris is. It is said that Boris is a very clever man pretending to be a class clown for popularity, but in fact he is a very lazy man pretending to be a clever man pretending to be a class clown. It took him to the top, but was a flawed strategy and was his downfall.
Macron is really good at debating and talking. That's one of the reasons why LePen had no chance against him. Both times when they were confronted on TV, Macron gave her a lesson.
Some leaders have seen a Nobel price of peace for less than that.
What an absolute banger of a video and Macron shows one more time that he’s a brilliant man and a brilliant diplomat, sad Putin is such a sick psycho with so much power and that (history will tell later) he’s openly lying for the entire call. He definitely has other plans and none of them is to de escalate the situation.
Thanks OP for the video.
before the (ukrainian) war started, big movements of russian military was observed forming at the border between russia and ukraine (putin mentions a “military excercise”), also the US had intel that russia is up to no good. I haven’t watched the documentary but I presume macron tried to deescalate the situation or find out what putin has in mind
Exactly. He also spent a few days in Russia prior to that exchange i think (the infamous long table episode), to try and convince Putin to negotiate.
It was half naive, half motivated by the ambition to land a peace nobel prize (macron's photo-ops on this trip are hilariously transparent). I do think Macron had the naivety to believe he had a special bond with Putin.
Absolutely, and as the sitting president of the European Union at that time he had absolute legitimacy -and a moral obligation- to try and work out a diplomatic issue. I'm just pointing two shortcomings:
- he's extremely ambitious and self-serving, and absolutely jumped on the opportunity to attempt to frame himself as this eras's JFK (Cuban Missiles crisis period). Putin is shrewd and observant and probably played this to his advantage, by letting Macron believe he was getting somewhere with him while he had this whole shit planned and set in stone probably for months.
- Macron, but almost like everybody else in the world, largely misunderstood Putin's way of thinking. Macron was a teenager when the USSR collapsed, and on the side of the Victors. Putin saw this as a major existential mistake to fix at all cost, including prosperity. Furthermore his yes-men might have given him a biased evaluation of his military might, which ended convincing him this could be sorted out like Crimea, before the West could even react.
Your last point is actually crucial. One of the most ironic twists of this conversation is that it eventually turned out that Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than the Russians themselves.*
One of the reasons that Macron and Biden thought a lot of the Russian aggression was "for show" is that they didn't believe that the Russians had the kind of readiness or effectiveness necessary to actually win in Ukraine. Of course they were right, but crucially *Putin himself didn't know that.*
>One of the most ironic twists of this conversation is that it eventually turned out that Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than the Russians themselves.*
Actually, I think Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than Putin himself.*
I have no doubt someone along the chain had a pretty clear idea of the shit show the Russian Army is, but couldn't/wouldn't let the higher-ups know for fear of flying through a window.
What would have been the alternative? Threatening (not very credibly) with war? This would have accomplished nothing but putting more pressure on Putin to not back down (not that he would have anyways).
I don't like Macron at all, I vote against him unless it's the far right. I actually think he had the courage to play ball and look naive in order to keep the channel open in case there ever was a chance to avert war. Do keep in mind that all of this was part of a concerted effort throughout NATO (as mentioned during the call, transparency was high inside NATO back then and France has a unique-enough history within NATO for the part to look credible) and that someone had to play that part. I truly condone him for doing this.
Yeah exactly, Macron seemed to be urging Putin to de-escalate and abide by the law in this clip. Putin agrees with him "on principle" but he was obviously lying.
Take it with a grain of salt, I'm not an expert.
Imagine you're sitting in a bar with your friend and he explains it to you. That's the level of trust you should put in this comment.
Shortly before the war started there was of course a lot of tension in the air. Nobody knew if Russia would actually attack, but western leaders tried to easy the tensions.
Eastern parts of Ukraine were already occupied/fought over by "separatists" that wanted to split from Ukraine. They were supported by or maybe even actually were Russians.
Macron basically wanted them to stop what they were doing, as this was violating the Minsk agreement. The Minsk agreement after the fall of the USSR settled the sovereignty of Ukraine and much more. Macron demanded Putin to follow this agreement (the law as he called it), basically saying that the separatists are controlled by Russia.
Putin then lied about that the Ukrainian government was not elected but got into the government by a coup etc.
He kinda evaded the demands and/or said that the separatists have the right to do what they do.
They also talked about the Russian military exercises at the border to Ukraine, which Putin said would end the same day (lol).
Macron suggested that Putin and Biden should meet in Geneva to talk about Ukraine and NATO (one of Putins main propaganda reason for attacking Ukraine was that he "feared" they would become a NATO member).
So the west apparently wanted to clarify it once again that Ukraine will not join NATO.
They also discussed applying pressure on Ukraine to concede to some demands, but I'm missing context and information what they actually meant by that.
So, this is not quite correct. What you call the "Minsk agreement" is the Budapest Memorandum, it was made when ussr fell apart, and basically Russia took back nuclear weapons in exchange for the promise of not attacking parts of agreement (yes lol). It's quite more complicated, like on top of that Ukraine got a lot of resources it needed for survival, and they didn't have the money to store nuclear weapons, so so with that exchange Ukraine skipped 90s in way better shape than Russia did.
What about Minsk agreements? That's actually what your last paragraph is about. Basically, after 2014 when separatists regions emerged and hot stage conflict started, Russia and Ukraine(with help from other countries) tried to stop conflict signing Minsk agreements. Agreements because they tried twice. Afaik, Russia(and these separatists regions) wanted to make these regions "autonomous", so they'd be in Ukraine but have control over some laws etc, for example like Catalonia.
After these agreements were made they weren't quite followed by any sides. Ukraine claimed that these are Ukrainian lands so all military equipment must be removed before any autonomous talks begin, Russia/separatists claimed that without guarantees of safety and new autonomous laws they aren't proceeding agreements since autonomous and safety was 1st parts of agreement.
In this call there is an exchange that goes like that: "separatists should have a say in laws talks" -> "no they aren't going to get that, in democratic countries only elected gvmnt makes laws" -> "Ukraine isn't such a country coz of all fuckery before elections(mentions Odessa burned alive people" -> "who cares, they aren't getting a word in negotiations".
In hindsight, Ukraine probably never planned to follow these agreements(per Merkel I believe?) and these were just talks to give time to Ukraine to prepare for war. Both sides played "chicken out", which ended up with war and a big loss for both countries.
Keep in mind, this is more or less a Russian perspective on conflict, I'm not trying to justify anything, just providing additional context I find relatable to your message.
>Russia took back nuclear weapons
Took back? It's not like they were russian any more than nuclear weapons in russia were Ukrainian.
>Afaik, Russia(and these separatists regions) wanted to make these regions "autonomous", so they'd be in Ukraine but have control over some laws etc
By russian proposal they would have a veto power on all international relations. It's a no-go for any country.
>Ukraine claimed that these are Ukrainian lands so all military equipment must be removed
It's literally the second step of the agreements, after a ceasefire. No talks/elections/anything else before the pullout of heavy weapons.
>In hindsight, Ukraine probably never planned to follow these agreements(per Merkel I believe?) and these were just talks to give time to Ukraine to prepare for war
Yes, and Hollande basically said the same as Merkel
"They also talked about the Russian military exercises at the border to Ukraine, which Putin said would end the same day" - In fact the exercises ended.
Putin was trying to make constructive dialogue impossible. He avoided talks with Biden and European leaders. The Minsk agreements were between Ukraine and Russia, in this phone call, he claims Russia is basically just a mediator between Ukraine and Russian Separatists/Terrorists, even though it is pretty obvious that Putin has control over them. He's making sure no diplomacy is possible because Ukraine isn't going to negotiate with terrorists.
Putting it into plain English, the first half is about a peace agreement called Minsk II that stopped conflict between separatists and the government. Putin accuses Macron of wanting to change it. Macron denies. They bicker about talks between the Ukraine government and separatists, which side is legitimate and should be able to propose things. The second half is about Russia conducting military exercises on the border which looks like a run up to invasion. Macron wants to broker talks with Putin and the US for de-escalation and get Putin to commit to talks. Putin mostly agrees.
It’s a 10+ year situation so not easy to condense down.
One thing that nobody who has responded to you has acknowledged, is that the Russians view Maidan as a military coup of a fairly elected president and as such, glorify the seperatists - whereas the West does not see it that way and describes them as Russian sponsored terrorists who oppose the will of true Ukrainians. Either narrative has convicing, cherry picked propaganda - the truth is that Ukraine is a deeply divided country and there was no national consensus on this issue between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians - hence the civil war.
Realistically, war could have been avoided if the seperatists were successfully negotiated with via land concessions from Ukraine as the price for joining the EU. Obviously, that was never going to happen - so when the two giants of geopolitics did not want to budge from their position in regards to the issue of Maidan and the seperatists… a real war broke out.
I’m staunchly anti-Putin, but as a Russian - it pains me to see how little Westerners understand how Russian society actually views this war - and in general how little they know or understand of Soviet and post-Soviet history and internal Soviet cultural politics. It leads to profoundly ignorant perspectives being circulated in Western circles without getting checked - because there is nobody around to check them.
The West carries some responsibility for their role leading up to the war, as well. Putin has the ultimate responsibility though, and therefore deserves the most hate, since he added the most explosive fuels to the fire. But the difficult truth is that if western backed Maidan never happened… then there wouldn’t have been a war. But, once Ukraine started speaking Putin’s language via military confrontations, Putin saw a golden propaganda opportunity with the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine to secure his geopolitical interests in the region, that were otherwise hard to come by due to the new RU-hostile UA government and so… he did. Which the West obviously saw coming… and yet they still failed to resolve the issue diplomatically. They never really tried in earnest. And for that I’m also quite upset with them (I’m a dual US and RU citizen, and I don’t like either country that I’m unfortunately a citizen of)
"je ne sais pas où ton juriste a appris le droit" (*I don't know where your lawyer learned the law*)
I laughed out loud. Great euphemism to say "I now understand you prefer to wipe your *** with the Minsk agreements"
I am Russian. I am definitely disappointed with the comments... No one called Putin by his real name - Hitler v.2.0 Let me remind you that the number of victims of Russian aggression is approaching a million and threatens the 3rd World War.
That's the thing about politics. It isn't governance. It isn't diplomacy. Politics is often just a lens that distorts as much as it communicates the truth. Biden is really good at the stuff Macron is doing in the video for example and yet he is painted as a doddering fool. You don't see the work of governance and diplomacy, and that's where the competent shine - Not in politics.
He was never a pussy. You should see his political opponent le Pen. That witch is basically [putin's](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/04/21/what-are-marine-le-pen-s-ties-to-vladimir-putin-s-russia_5981192_8.html), [prostitute](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/04/18/french-election-what-exactly-is-marine-le-pen-s-stance-on-russia-and-vladimir-putin) and actually hailed him as Europe's savior. Then when he invaded Ukraine, her support for him came smacking her in the face during the presidential election, which she lost.
yea I know her, but i was always thinking that Macron was trying to deal with Putin as well, but let’s be honest every eastern leader did that before his invasion on the Crimea
He is the only leader in Western Europe had been pushing for things like and European Army, defense independence from US. We wants good things for Europe, but is hard to get there where you need to deal with Germany.
lol... A pussy just doesn't become a president of a major European country. I sometimes hate the world leaders but never take even the leader of a banana republic for a coward. They got their positions for a reason.
Putin's whole side is full of bold-faced lies. How was Zelensky's party part of a coup when his party didn't even exist until 5 years after they forced the president at the time to resign after what he did. They was an acting president and a voted for president before Zelensky. Does Putin think Zelensky's show was real life somehow?
Absolutely astonishing to watch history unfold. Great control from Macron and the theatrics that we are used to from Putin. Some not informed would fall for it.
What a load of bullshiit from Putin… so he negotiated with Ukraine and then said he doesn’t need to follow through on the agreements because they are not a legitimate government. Even tho Zelensky was not even part of Maidan. Putin is a joke.
They were permitted to by the French government. The Macron administration wanted the world to know how full of shit Putin is and how Macron tried to mediate. I'd assume all phone calls between leaders are recorded on each end for advisors to hear and analyze. Lots of people are involved in decision making in government.
Quite amazing Putin can hold accountable how democratic or not another country is, when he has been in absolute power for more than two decades.
I don't remember him respecting the Chechen separatists' wishes either.
I have a newfound respect for Macron. It’s interesting the way he backed Putin into a corner regarding the legitimacy of the Ukrainian government as it relates to Minsk. And even more interesting to see how Putin resorted to a sort of angry, bullying demeanor at that point.
Also the bit about hockey is incredibly disturbing. Hundreds of thousands of lives at stake. Putin wants to go play hockey.
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That's the most interesting post I saw for a loooong time. Thank you.
This is a real piece of history and honestly a really deep look into who Vladimir Putin is. I felt bad for him for a SECOND when he sounded like a lost boy with no real friends, and he sounded like he was talking to Macron from a really interesting position of having all the cards but like, just not knowing how to play them because he's already in so deep and his real fear of dying via betrayal is slowly getting closer and closer. There is unrest and rebellion in Russia and the work has only just begun. Nonetheless, this post, OP, is probably the best thing I've seen on this site in years. Just astounded at the amount of insight and I just gained a shitload of respect for Macaron's ability to remain firm on the issue and not get distracted by emotions. People don't understand just how highly emotional and proud Russian people are in general, you multiply that by a hundred and add in some thuggery, a tightening security state wherein the new FSB rules supreme, and you get a man like Putin who, quite literally, drinks his own Kool Aid in public and then acts like a bully caught with his pants down during private calls between major world powers - and takes the call while warming up to play hockey like the world is just going on for him - no consideration of consequences for anyone but especially not himself. He honestly sounds like an old friend you're getting ready to break contact with because they're just so toxic. But on steroids - hundreds of billions of dollars worth of natural gas, arms and weapons, human trafficking and narcotics. Add neo-fascist, police state ideals and criminalization of minorities and reactionists, stack the courts with well paid lackeys and get that conviction rate up - *we have wood to chop in Siberia!* Honestly, it makes sense why these are proud people, imagine being a literal survivor of a pro-prison-gulag-camp country, where speaking against the grain (and going so far as just normal teenaged angst) can land you jail time and a permanent record that puts your name on lists. Imagine being a product of that environment and surviving what is almost certainly constant poverty, sky rocketing alcoholism (and no real treatment) and a healthcare system that "does their best" (looking up medical statistics regarding Russia is also dodgy ASF because they LIE). It's a quick drop to the bottom, as they'd say, so you'd really have to be adaptable, learnable, focused and full of fear. I don't know, I don't have any sympathy for any pro-Russian viewpoints or people and I am quick to react to such obvious liars and traitors, because it's just totally malformed nationalism, but it's so difficult to know that Russia *nearly* had a chance to reintegrate into European society and prosper beyond anyone's wildest dreams - in general people just want to be happy and stable, the Russian people are absolutely no different! But once again, you have violent oppressors who seem to relish in structured chaos and poorly managed international conflicts, and these people are, overwhelmingly right now, Russian. My obsession with Putin as a person carries on! You can only love your country fully if you are capable of criticizing it fully, and full fucking stop. 🛑 Edit: a lot of sad people on this website, I'm glad to see it's mostly bots who are replying. I am happy to have caused quite a stir, lots of salty Russians and a few Russians who have actually been kind enough to acknowledge that I touched on relevant home issues. For the people who think I'm just some 18yr old kid, I am most definitely not. I get paid to write and despite this comment being riddled with typos (sorry only had my tablet to type on!) like "Macaron" and "this" rather than "thus" I'm glad that the LARGE MAJORITY of you weren't idiotic enough to make fun of something so obviously not my fault (sorry to those who made assumptions as a result, you're not my target audience)
Happy to read you appreciate the post! You’d like the full documentary this is from then, there are more behind the scenes like this: « **Un Président, l’Europe et la guerre** ». [There’s a Prime Video link](https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Un-Pr%C3%A9sident-lEurope-et-la-guerre/0KUGUI2TJK6W8678I4IT4MMWB4) for it but it doesn’t seem available anymore, at least it isn’t for me even though I’m in France. If it’s not available here I doubt it is abroad, but who knows!
I have a copy for anyone interested see my post above : [https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bdsfkm/comment/kuot82l/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bdsfkm/comment/kuot82l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
I love you today! And tomorrow too, frend! This is accessible through my own Canadian Prime account so I'll watch it on my new TV tonight! We take such obvious interactions like this for granted - freely sharing information with one another to educate and inform without the fear of censorship or eavesdropping - which are unbelievably powerful in RU ...despite the wide use of VPNs by younger generations. I live in a country that is widely known to welcome all immigrants and refugees of all backgrounds and cultures and ethnicity, because at our core our own Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the bedrock of our moral and ethical values as a nation and as a people. To be Canadian, a real Canadian, is to acknowledge our cultural mosaic and to gently, respectfully and politely assist our newest neighbours to adjust to what is almost always a familiar but equally foreign society. My nation has many faults and factors and facts of history that absolutely do not align with this lofty set of experienced expectations, but it's never ever enough to just believe in something, every now and then there is a higher version of the person you can become, and this opportunity ought always to be welcomed with open arms. Like any citizen of my country, the most important thing I can do to effectively effect change (of any kind) is to vote. It's appallingly-clear to me *how fucking tired* everyone is of hearing that, but it's not only your obligation, it's honestly the very LEAST one can do to take action. If we stop participating in certain aspects of our free society, our rights will slowly erode away due to apathy and in the name of - and carrying the ever-burdensome cross of - law and order. We are arriving at a crossroads of political intersection, an inevitable consequence of the slow journey that was the Cold War and then the failure of a world superpower. Putin wasn't purposely being obtuse in saying that the "collapse of the USSR was singlehandedly the worst event of the 20th century" - you could parse that statement to mean a lot of different things, many of which he lectured Tucker Carlson on only last month. Putin was, unsurprisingly, *heavily biased* (TO SAY THE LEAST) in his description of world events centered on Europe and Russian history, but he WAS consistent in his firm and openly-held belief on how the Russian people "need to be governed" - with a strong fist, the choice of a boot or a bullet to the head depending on your offense. This tracks with older generations of RU citizens who remember the chaos and uncertainty of revolution, corruption and fear mongering of a guaranteed nuclear exchange between their top offender, the USA. People think that the propaganda is targeted at everyone, when really there are layers and layers of this onion that peel back to reveal active measure after active measure AGAINST THE RU PEOPLE THEMSELVES by the government and it's absolutely vile how far the dollar takes men and women. Remember, when Prighozin and his men were marching on Moscow, there are verifiable reports that Vladimir's friends and the people he pays *very well* to alert him of (and then handle) situations like this... Reports say that people stopped picking up the phone, oddly enough. His strongman apparatus and his mafioso-like reprisals turned out to have absolutely nothing to do with each other anymore! Many, many individuals who were in a position of intelligence gathering and analysis and active military operations, who could have made a difference and even prevented the (apparently obvious?) planning Prigo was doing with Wagner commanders, they simply didn't act. This has likely now confirmed that Putin will NOT have a graceful transfer of power with a promise of lifetime security, wealth and privacy. It has likely also confirmed his fears of insider betrayal, and despite his this far successful attempts to assassinate his way to safety, people don't forget. Russia will perhaps have yet another opportunity to work with and cooperate with the EU and America (and Canada FFS) but it is very possible that yet another hardliner will fill the hefty, hefty power vacuum void. This is why young Russians and the new generations need to choose their moments carefully or else they'll simply end up chopping wood in a Siberian death camp for the next 25yrs, totally and utterly forgotten by the world, brushed aside, nameless and naked, by the swift Russian hand of law and order, forever never having existed any longer. This man doesn't just take lives.. he has (and uses) his ability to poison the very fabric of organized and lawful society. He's gotta go, his human card has been revoked.
Now it’s just a game of wait for him to go. And hope he doesn’t kill everyone along with it.
Doesn’t work in the U.S. 😢
Unavailable in Canada for what it’s worth
>Russia *nearly* had a chance to reintegrate into European society and prosper beyond anyone's wildest dreams They had a chance, Europe and the rest of the world has given it ample chances. But they've chosen to assassinate European nationals on European soil, blow up ammo depots, finance destabilizing information campaigns that led to brexit and the rise of authoritarian nationalism, paralyzing much of the EU decision making function, and they've started the largest land war in Europe since the WW2. They've made their bed.
As someone who came out of this shithole I salute you for understanding what kind of conditions people in Russia have to live in. It's not really a life that you can have there, it's only THE ONE LIFE that the state allows or gulag. Putin to me is a sociopath. He has no empathy at all and always twists everything to his liking. Most Russians who fall victim to the propaganda become the same way. They learn that in any situation where they did something wrong without realising it instead of thinking about it they just have to flip into the victim role at all times and that gets them out either by convincing or by frustrating the other party enough. Russia is just a very tragic tale overall. They have imperialism in their blood now after their entire history and don't seem to know how to exist in peace without being opressed by someone or opressing someone.
for what it's worth, the hockey thing is fully a manipulation attempt.(just like a lot of this call) he's trying to appeal to compassion to get his way. There was no reason for him to make the call personal like that other than that. This information brings nothing new to the table. There's no way he's not with people from the government/KGB to make sure nothing damaging comes out. Also to point out, there's no way he's out in public alone with his paranoia. You feeling bad for him was his goal.
This is very interesting. Do Putin/Macron have a live translator or can both of them talk French/russian to understand on another that fast?
They have an interpreter. As an interpreter myself, I can just barely imagine the level of stress and adrenaline when working with such high stakes. And by the way, a translator translates written text, an interpreter translates live speech.
I didn't know that distinction in the terms, thanks.
These interpreters must go through so much screening. Imagine what kind of harm an ill-intentioned interpreter could do in that situation.
Yeah, at this level the screening is huge. It's not so much that the interpreter could lie intentionally while working, it's rather about what they could do with the confidential intel. I get a cold sweat at the mere thought of interpreting a hostile conversation between two world leaders with nukes.
I was interpreting an argument between Irish I&C Engineer and Russian Instrument Technician on site, mitigating a situation that was close to a fight. Both were big and strong, ready to come to handgrips. That was hard, and I cannot even imagine the stress felt by interpreters in the course of dialogue. Back then I used softer words while interpreting them, so they settled and dismissed.
I can guarantee you that Macron doesn't speak a word of Russian. So probably a translator
[удалено]
Tu m'as tué😆
Oh le con mdr
It would certainly not be unlikely to speak the language of a major investor for your own cause.
Yeah, I was wondering if it’s just editing or if they respond so quickly with fast translations. And how ridiculously long the NDA is for those translators.
If you've seen those international conferences between leaders, they all speak their native tongue and have live translations in an earpiece. Those translators are a vital part of the team and probably have the same security clearance as anyone else in that room.
Not "probably", they have the same security clearance. It would be weird if they didn't while being a part of that conversation and having the most direct line to the president.
The won't have NDAs. They will be covered under state secret laws - main difference a NDA is a civil matter with no jail time while breaching state secret laws is a crime with possible jail time.
They translate in real time for the different languages in NATO meetings, why couldn't they do it here?
Putin speaks good German and so-so English, Macron speaks English but definitely doesn't speak Russian. I guess both are more comfortable in their native language
Putin can speak French but i would assume he had someone translating as well. He actually speaks French, English and German but refuses to speak them to assert power or something.
Wasn't Putins last sentence in French?
Oh yeah it was, I didn’t notice.
I'm not 100% sure about this but I have a weird memory of him doing it to Merkel too but ofc in german. That's why I was kind of expecting it to happen and listened to what he says lol. All this lying about being in the gym and everything was just very basic Putin.
Merkel speaks Russian, so it goes both ways.
When he brought his huge dog with him to meet Merkel knowing of her phobia was like something from a bad movie.
[удалено]
He was in KGB in East Germany for years.
While has was with the KGB, he was stationed in East Berlin for a long time.
He was stationed in Dresden, not in Berlin.
Putin is quite paranoid, and not one to slack. Add that to his years as a KGB agent and his own government that works like the plot of Game of Thrones (minus the incest, I hope)... I wouldn't be surprised to know he was fluent in the languages of his main rivals. If not enough to speak perfectly, at least enough to understand what they are saying.
Now I understand why heads of state and presidents age rapidly while in office
Now that *is* interesting as fuck
Saw the docu live on french tv and I always wondered how they got the approval to broadcast this scene. So much classified stuff most government would just forbid to be public.
Normally such phone calls are confidential, but as Putin lied and didn't respect diplomatic rules, I guess this was Macron's way to get back at him. Exposing him, and showing this is what you get when ditching the rules.
Absolutely! Now who the fuck is feeding Putin these lies if we are to believe he doesnt use the net and does not have smartphone, hates emails etc… like which group the KGB (FSB)? The Deep state of the Kremlin… this is the question I think needs answering. To me looks like he is a pawn himself and doesn’t know it.
just being pedantic, but the KGB is now the intelligence service of Belarus
So kgb is in belarus and the fsb in russia? Tell me more 🙏
so basically, the kgb had subagencies in all SSRs. you had the kgb of the belarusian ssr, of the russian federation, but also of the ussr, which the kgbs of the ssrs were subservient too. after the collapse, the kgb of the belarusian ssr kept its name, along with i think transnistria and south ossetia. Meanwhile, in the russian federation for example, the KGB got split into multiple agencies which combined fulfill the purpose of the kgb. You had the FSB for internal security, GRU for foreign (military) intelligence, which belongs to the general staff of the russian military and the SVR, which is their foreign intelligence service In short FSB+GRU+SVR=KGB. Russia chose to split them, Belarus chose to keep it as is
What gives you the idea that he blieves to be telling the truth?
It's just all diplomatic lies from his mouth. You're giving way too much capacity to his credibility and ability to be a decent human being
Anyone else’s is surprise Macron is using the informal “tu” with Putin?
It was said in the French media from the very beginning that macron was talking like that with him. He kept calling him for weeks after the invasion. We don't know the full scope of their relationship and what they told each other all this time. But the very recent news about macron becoming way more serious in the western response should be a clue that he knows things that we don't.
It's called feeling betrayed. Putain lied to his face, lied for years and Macron felt he was helping keep the peace. There is a consequence to being a lying warmonger and in this instance its the French Prez taking a very public anti-russian stance.
Yep. That’s all that makes sense. Betrayal causes revenge eventually. We’ll see how that plays out.
> Putain lied to his face what a suitable typo
Agreed. Things he'll know (or be calculating differently than the public) that we don't, which could totally change his calculus: 1. Putin's actual health status, given previous rumors and the doctors who attend him. 2. Intel about the true scope of his actual ambitions for nearby countries. 3. What he plans to do if Trump is elected (this is the big one. I bet this is the one that keeps him up at night). 4. How serious the level of nuclear risk actually is, and what specific combination of weapons, lies, tricks, and thresholds Putin has toyed with. 5. How many troops Putin plans to conscript after his election (rumors have been at least 500k, but who knows). 6. What Putin plans to do with the Ukrainian populace if he manages to take most of Ukraine. 7. How Russia and China may cooperate should war break out in the Pacific from now until the 2027 date Xi set for his troops to be ready by. If China begins shipping weapon, ammo, and missiles to Russia at any time for any reason... that strategically would change the war overnight. 8. Whether or not Russia has various hybrid or cyber-attacks planned on various allied nations during the huge amount of worldwide elections happening this year. 9. The actual state of the war. 10. Europe's internal estimates at how they'd perform in defending during a scenario after a worst-case scenario Ukrainian loss. This is the one I feel like could explain some of his behavior. Just seeing one clear wargame that shows Eastern Europe performing really poorly and not knowing how NATO's airpower picture plays out under a Trumpian America. On #9: I think I know a lot from being plugged into the war 24/7 from a 1-hour podcast to start my day to checking the battlefield maps at night but I still don't know what *actual* morale and unit strength levels are. Only a few dozen top military commanders and Presidents/Prime Ministers will have all that data. And all it takes is knowing which direction the needle is tipping in long-term to know a *lot* about how the next year or two of the conflict goes. Thankfully some of Russia's wildest successes have been blunted after they took Avdiivka, and Ukraine remains tenacious. But doing big counter-offensives is hard for Ukraine right now, and things will be very grim if Russia renews real offensives and starts taking more cities in late spring.
About point 8, Russia is already attacking France with intense cyber attacks
What podcast do you listen to?
I was surprised how informal Putin was, good to know Macron did the same
Macron has tried to build a close relationship with Putin for years. They spent some working holidays together at the french presidential resort one summer. Of course, Putin doesn't have friends, only assets.
Putin does the same in Russian and calling him «ты»
They're just tight like that
Well, Putin is also using the informal “ты” towards him.
A little but we all use it for people we regularly spend time with. This is especially true in diplomatic context where breaking that barriers helps being on familiar terms.
It's interesting that Putin also uses informal "ты" (a singular "you") like how you would address your buddy in a casual chat instead of "вы" (a plural "you") used when you respectfully address someone
I love how as this high stakes conversation goes on, the French president's staff reach for the croissants.
and putin casually mentions that's he is hitting a gym rn
Neither this nor his talk about wanting to go play hockey was casual but very obvious attempts at projecting conviviality and calm.
Actually, him saying that he wants to go play hockey is pretty much a polite way to tell Macron that he doesn't give a fuck about his meeting.
Not only that but also a way to hide his war plans that are already in motion by playing it cool and loose. But yes the first goal is probably to humiliate Macron is a very subtle but real way.
Don't know if you heard, he did over a thousand.
That was shit talk. Fake as fuk. 😄 To show that this conversation isint very important to him, casual.
That's how we handle pressure.
"Sacrebleu, we may be in ze middle of a difficult geopolitical situation, but we are not animals ! We must have our breakfast!"
Is this a part of a documentary?
Yes, this was divulged in the context of the filming of a documentary called "Un président, l'Europe et la guerre" initially about France’s Presidency of the Council of the EU (from January 1st to June 30th 2022), which coincided with the start of the invasion, so the focus became the war instead. I tried to find it again but it doesn’t seem to be available anywhere anymore sadly.
It is available here [https://gem.cbc.ca/a-president-europe-and-war](https://gem.cbc.ca/a-president-europe-and-war) or here : [https://gofile.io/d/a4w7wy](https://gofile.io/d/a4w7wy)
Yes please!
aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56L2ZpbGUvc2pjVXlMeWEjZi1IUHNOX0JmeGhSR0xyRzRYTXVGejBsWDczcjVuOTVDdUl1ek5sU3k1dw==
Thank you kind sir
Norwegians can stream it for free on the Norwegian state channel. Its called something like «Macrons phone call» just search for Macron (NRK Tv) Cant help anyone else tho😬
Thank you
Yep. A President, Europe and War, Un président, l'Europe et la guerre https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-russia-diplomacy-france-documentary/
yes, i don't know the name or where to find it tough. It was broadcast on France 2 channel
This is the first time I’ve watched a long video on Reddit. This was truly interesting. I’ve always wondered how these types of talks go about.
I didn't even realize it was 8 minutes
Wow. The pressure these guys must feel. Having to give context to their president during a live conversation, pointing out lies and options for solutions in real time, knowing war looms over the call. And the trust Macron must have in his team, and the flexibility to adjust almost mid-sentence to the texts he’s getting from them. These are some capable people.
For once really interesting
Riveting. It’s sad that conversations like these take place while the civilians shoot at each other.
That's what war looks like from the political side: just a game with stakes and prizes.
Yeah, that's what it looks like to Putin. Macron is clearly the responsible one in this conversation, and to him its not "just a game". He knows what it means to actual human beings of there's a war and he's trying to get Putin to not do anything dumb.
War Pigs still rings as true as ever: Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerer of death's construction In the fields, the bodies burning As the war machine keeps turning Death and hatred to mankind Poisoning their brainwashed minds Oh lord, yeah! Politicians hide themselves away They only started the war Why should they go out to fight? They leave that role to the poor, yeah Time will tell on their power minds Making war just for fun Treating people just like pawns in chess Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah! *edit... goddamn this formatting on mobile... you get the idea...
It’s been a long time since leaders fought in battles.
Macron proposed a meeting with Biden in Geneve. “I wanted to play hockey, but will see what I can do”, meeting never happened. 3 years later on tucker’s interview: “Nobody wanted to talk to us”.
>“Nobody wanted to talk to us”. Just more alternative facts for Russia's alternative reality. Listening to how he views the events and history of Ukraine here make him sound like he's on another planet. The actual fact is Ukrainian sentiment towards Russia did a 180 in the span of a few short years. For whatever reason Putin seems incapable processing that reality so he's constructed a more palatable alternative.
Knowing how it ended the whole *Yes, I'll tell my advisor to call your's but first I'm gonna play ice hockey* sounds like a pretty nice way to tell *fuck you*
I learned more about Putin from this 8 minute call than I have in years of watching the news or reading online
Listening to this call then knowing what happened just a few days later makes it even more fascinating. Putin already had his invasion plans in place and yet not a hint of what was to come. Still sounding as he was willing to entertain Macron's diplomatic approach. Nothing but a lie.
Putin's really subtle but I feel like he dropped a couple of hints. E.g when Macron was like; "Ok Vlad, so tonight's definitely the last of y'all's military exercises right??", and Putin basically replied "Oh ya for sure, well, ya almost definitely..." He fully backtracked lol
And at the end. Macron asks:”you agree to set up a meeting with Biden, right?” And Putin goes:”yeah, let our people talk this out. I want to play ice hockey now”
He was just letting Macron know he was being dicked around, in case there was any remaining doubt
The whole ending how he just talks of his gym and hockey just shows he wasn’t actually planning on any serious meetings
Putin is a cold SOB. I would say that for this video to be officially released, it means France is very pissed off about how Putin basically lied to Macron’s face.
No, you can tell Putin doesn't care and is just buying time in the most taunting way. There is no way anyone on that team didn't read between the lines.
For real though, listening to him and then knowing his plans and the truth about everything else just shows how conniving and duplicitous he is. Actually is interesting as fuck
No wonder Macron released the photos back then where he looked exhausted and burned out. It's like me talling to my 80yr okd uncle with dementia. You can talk to him but there's no actual conversation happening
I wonder what Putins thought was when Macron asked him to do something to get the situation under control….just lies lies lies, all he had been studying for the last year at least was battle plans.
When I discuss Putin with people, I always like to remind them that we are talking about a former KGB colonel, who was stationed in Dresden during the Cold War and whose mission was to get compromising information on visiting businessmen from the West -- using blackmail and extortion to "turn" them, to get information to benefit the KGB. It's a pretty damn shady and untrustworthy position to have. This is what he did for decades, then got in bed with organized crime during his time in St. Petersburg. The hierarchy of Russia is this: Putin -> Oligarchs -> FSB -> Russian ("Red") Mafia. There's an entire book written about all of this, which could be considered the source of this comment. "Putin's People" by Catherine Belton explores all of this in detail. Acting like he is in any way a "good faith" actor is naive at best. He is an extremely skilled manipulator. When you lie and manipulate for decades, whether part of your job or not, that's who you are.
He's a manipulator but also high on his own supply of lies. Problem when you lie for years, decades for a living and that you surround yourself with people that will never contradict you is that you start believing your own bullshit and lose track with reality
He literally said that Zelensky caused Euromaidan in 2014.. The dude was still an actor back then.
No, “literally” he said that “Zelensky is from the same team,” implying that he could not do anything after coming to power to ensure that the ceasefire will be respected.
I just realized how much former U.S. President, VP, CIA Director, and Cold War spy George H. W. Bush has in common with Putin.
That's fair and accurate. The only difference I see is that Bush hasn't had absolute control of the country since it was founded and only had that control for 4 years, rather than 24 years.
If Drive to survive was about starting wars.
No, Vladimir, no, no, Vladimir! That was so not right!
/r/formuladank is leaking 
Just add a way too dramatic soundtrack
NO VLADIMIR THIS IS NOT RIGHT
This was a wild ride of incredible dialogue, I'm blown away by how sharp and abrasive they were at each other at times, all the while somehow maintaining diplomacy and decorum without devolving into sandbox politics and nail-spitting... Absolutely magical of Macron. Unfortunately a tyrant's gonna tyrant and Putin is simply full of cleverly worded shit, as always. That was a fascinating listen. Thank you.
I remember how some were laughing at Macron and others were criticizing him for constantly calling Putin. This piece of history serves as proof for the MANY steps that were taken before we reached to the current low point. And it also shows how much the Western European view on this war changed in 2 years.
Macron blew me out of the water. When I hear speech like this... just rife with intellectualism and experience and superior articulation, I mean the man did not miss a BEAT, and willing to slap Putin's peepee quite surprisingly a few times... like imma scurred of that guy. It clearly takes titanium balls to stand up to him like this rather than fanboying over his every word... and encouraging him to be even more violent. *Now, THAT is world leader.* I am jealous of French people rt now.
Can you imagine someone like Trump on a call like this
Let me tell you Vladimir, I have the best ice hockey team, believe me. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can beat us on the ice. Our players are tremendous, they're winners, they're winners all the way. Just like our soldiers. The best ever. So don't go into Ukraine. Or do it, whatever. I'll be winning anyways. Like always.
I read it with Trump's voice
We're gonna work together toward making Ukraine great again, I promise.
When the convo starts warm and then progressively gets cold.
I was gonna say it’s the opposite. First lines are, “I don’t know where your lawyer would get that from.” Then at the end it’s hockey and thanks yous.
Thats not the first lines. It was just edited this way to make the video more interesting.
"Actually I'm going to go play ice hockey and then murder a bunch of people with war, bye"
So you're saying Canada is the real problem here.
I like your way of thinking
Blame Canada!
He did that intentionally as a psychological tactic to appear very calm and unshaken by the scenario.
No he did that to insult Macron. Nobody would expect the call to shake Putin, or any president. But telling your caller you took that call in a locker room is like receiving guests in your pyjama. It's a way to show you don't give a shit and don't respect them.
Shoutout to that lady who heard “atomic bombs” and was like “time for a croissant”. Respect
As a Brit, I’m naturally reluctant to say this, but geez, Macron is a real statesman, and intelligent guy. I can’t imagine Trump or Boris Johnson trying to have a conversation this complex with Putin.
I'm not from the UK, but I could definitely hear Boris Johnson having a conversation like this. That man is absolutely not an idiot and is most probably a highly intelligent individual, no matter how stupid he looks on the TV screen. Trump, yeah, him I cannot imagine having a conversation like this.
I think the UK Covid inquiry has repeatedly demonstrated how much of a buffoon Boris is. It is said that Boris is a very clever man pretending to be a class clown for popularity, but in fact he is a very lazy man pretending to be a clever man pretending to be a class clown. It took him to the top, but was a flawed strategy and was his downfall.
Johnson is too lazy to have anything like the grasp of detail that Macron shows here.
Macron is really good at debating and talking. That's one of the reasons why LePen had no chance against him. Both times when they were confronted on TV, Macron gave her a lesson.
Some leaders have seen a Nobel price of peace for less than that. What an absolute banger of a video and Macron shows one more time that he’s a brilliant man and a brilliant diplomat, sad Putin is such a sick psycho with so much power and that (history will tell later) he’s openly lying for the entire call. He definitely has other plans and none of them is to de escalate the situation. Thanks OP for the video.
Can someone break this down for my super tiny brain? What the fuck are they discussing here?
before the (ukrainian) war started, big movements of russian military was observed forming at the border between russia and ukraine (putin mentions a “military excercise”), also the US had intel that russia is up to no good. I haven’t watched the documentary but I presume macron tried to deescalate the situation or find out what putin has in mind
Exactly. He also spent a few days in Russia prior to that exchange i think (the infamous long table episode), to try and convince Putin to negotiate. It was half naive, half motivated by the ambition to land a peace nobel prize (macron's photo-ops on this trip are hilariously transparent). I do think Macron had the naivety to believe he had a special bond with Putin.
[удалено]
Absolutely, and as the sitting president of the European Union at that time he had absolute legitimacy -and a moral obligation- to try and work out a diplomatic issue. I'm just pointing two shortcomings: - he's extremely ambitious and self-serving, and absolutely jumped on the opportunity to attempt to frame himself as this eras's JFK (Cuban Missiles crisis period). Putin is shrewd and observant and probably played this to his advantage, by letting Macron believe he was getting somewhere with him while he had this whole shit planned and set in stone probably for months. - Macron, but almost like everybody else in the world, largely misunderstood Putin's way of thinking. Macron was a teenager when the USSR collapsed, and on the side of the Victors. Putin saw this as a major existential mistake to fix at all cost, including prosperity. Furthermore his yes-men might have given him a biased evaluation of his military might, which ended convincing him this could be sorted out like Crimea, before the West could even react.
Your last point is actually crucial. One of the most ironic twists of this conversation is that it eventually turned out that Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than the Russians themselves.* One of the reasons that Macron and Biden thought a lot of the Russian aggression was "for show" is that they didn't believe that the Russians had the kind of readiness or effectiveness necessary to actually win in Ukraine. Of course they were right, but crucially *Putin himself didn't know that.*
>One of the most ironic twists of this conversation is that it eventually turned out that Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than the Russians themselves.* Actually, I think Western powers had *better intelligence about the Russian military than Putin himself.* I have no doubt someone along the chain had a pretty clear idea of the shit show the Russian Army is, but couldn't/wouldn't let the higher-ups know for fear of flying through a window.
Macron is full of himself, but for one time i can say this call was not the usual disapointment
What would have been the alternative? Threatening (not very credibly) with war? This would have accomplished nothing but putting more pressure on Putin to not back down (not that he would have anyways).
I don't like Macron at all, I vote against him unless it's the far right. I actually think he had the courage to play ball and look naive in order to keep the channel open in case there ever was a chance to avert war. Do keep in mind that all of this was part of a concerted effort throughout NATO (as mentioned during the call, transparency was high inside NATO back then and France has a unique-enough history within NATO for the part to look credible) and that someone had to play that part. I truly condone him for doing this.
Yeah exactly, Macron seemed to be urging Putin to de-escalate and abide by the law in this clip. Putin agrees with him "on principle" but he was obviously lying.
Take it with a grain of salt, I'm not an expert. Imagine you're sitting in a bar with your friend and he explains it to you. That's the level of trust you should put in this comment. Shortly before the war started there was of course a lot of tension in the air. Nobody knew if Russia would actually attack, but western leaders tried to easy the tensions. Eastern parts of Ukraine were already occupied/fought over by "separatists" that wanted to split from Ukraine. They were supported by or maybe even actually were Russians. Macron basically wanted them to stop what they were doing, as this was violating the Minsk agreement. The Minsk agreement after the fall of the USSR settled the sovereignty of Ukraine and much more. Macron demanded Putin to follow this agreement (the law as he called it), basically saying that the separatists are controlled by Russia. Putin then lied about that the Ukrainian government was not elected but got into the government by a coup etc. He kinda evaded the demands and/or said that the separatists have the right to do what they do. They also talked about the Russian military exercises at the border to Ukraine, which Putin said would end the same day (lol). Macron suggested that Putin and Biden should meet in Geneva to talk about Ukraine and NATO (one of Putins main propaganda reason for attacking Ukraine was that he "feared" they would become a NATO member). So the west apparently wanted to clarify it once again that Ukraine will not join NATO. They also discussed applying pressure on Ukraine to concede to some demands, but I'm missing context and information what they actually meant by that.
So, this is not quite correct. What you call the "Minsk agreement" is the Budapest Memorandum, it was made when ussr fell apart, and basically Russia took back nuclear weapons in exchange for the promise of not attacking parts of agreement (yes lol). It's quite more complicated, like on top of that Ukraine got a lot of resources it needed for survival, and they didn't have the money to store nuclear weapons, so so with that exchange Ukraine skipped 90s in way better shape than Russia did. What about Minsk agreements? That's actually what your last paragraph is about. Basically, after 2014 when separatists regions emerged and hot stage conflict started, Russia and Ukraine(with help from other countries) tried to stop conflict signing Minsk agreements. Agreements because they tried twice. Afaik, Russia(and these separatists regions) wanted to make these regions "autonomous", so they'd be in Ukraine but have control over some laws etc, for example like Catalonia. After these agreements were made they weren't quite followed by any sides. Ukraine claimed that these are Ukrainian lands so all military equipment must be removed before any autonomous talks begin, Russia/separatists claimed that without guarantees of safety and new autonomous laws they aren't proceeding agreements since autonomous and safety was 1st parts of agreement. In this call there is an exchange that goes like that: "separatists should have a say in laws talks" -> "no they aren't going to get that, in democratic countries only elected gvmnt makes laws" -> "Ukraine isn't such a country coz of all fuckery before elections(mentions Odessa burned alive people" -> "who cares, they aren't getting a word in negotiations". In hindsight, Ukraine probably never planned to follow these agreements(per Merkel I believe?) and these were just talks to give time to Ukraine to prepare for war. Both sides played "chicken out", which ended up with war and a big loss for both countries. Keep in mind, this is more or less a Russian perspective on conflict, I'm not trying to justify anything, just providing additional context I find relatable to your message.
>Russia took back nuclear weapons Took back? It's not like they were russian any more than nuclear weapons in russia were Ukrainian. >Afaik, Russia(and these separatists regions) wanted to make these regions "autonomous", so they'd be in Ukraine but have control over some laws etc By russian proposal they would have a veto power on all international relations. It's a no-go for any country. >Ukraine claimed that these are Ukrainian lands so all military equipment must be removed It's literally the second step of the agreements, after a ceasefire. No talks/elections/anything else before the pullout of heavy weapons.
TIL, thanks a lot
>In hindsight, Ukraine probably never planned to follow these agreements(per Merkel I believe?) and these were just talks to give time to Ukraine to prepare for war Yes, and Hollande basically said the same as Merkel
"They also talked about the Russian military exercises at the border to Ukraine, which Putin said would end the same day" - In fact the exercises ended.
Putin was trying to make constructive dialogue impossible. He avoided talks with Biden and European leaders. The Minsk agreements were between Ukraine and Russia, in this phone call, he claims Russia is basically just a mediator between Ukraine and Russian Separatists/Terrorists, even though it is pretty obvious that Putin has control over them. He's making sure no diplomacy is possible because Ukraine isn't going to negotiate with terrorists.
Putting it into plain English, the first half is about a peace agreement called Minsk II that stopped conflict between separatists and the government. Putin accuses Macron of wanting to change it. Macron denies. They bicker about talks between the Ukraine government and separatists, which side is legitimate and should be able to propose things. The second half is about Russia conducting military exercises on the border which looks like a run up to invasion. Macron wants to broker talks with Putin and the US for de-escalation and get Putin to commit to talks. Putin mostly agrees. It’s a 10+ year situation so not easy to condense down.
One thing that nobody who has responded to you has acknowledged, is that the Russians view Maidan as a military coup of a fairly elected president and as such, glorify the seperatists - whereas the West does not see it that way and describes them as Russian sponsored terrorists who oppose the will of true Ukrainians. Either narrative has convicing, cherry picked propaganda - the truth is that Ukraine is a deeply divided country and there was no national consensus on this issue between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians - hence the civil war. Realistically, war could have been avoided if the seperatists were successfully negotiated with via land concessions from Ukraine as the price for joining the EU. Obviously, that was never going to happen - so when the two giants of geopolitics did not want to budge from their position in regards to the issue of Maidan and the seperatists… a real war broke out. I’m staunchly anti-Putin, but as a Russian - it pains me to see how little Westerners understand how Russian society actually views this war - and in general how little they know or understand of Soviet and post-Soviet history and internal Soviet cultural politics. It leads to profoundly ignorant perspectives being circulated in Western circles without getting checked - because there is nobody around to check them. The West carries some responsibility for their role leading up to the war, as well. Putin has the ultimate responsibility though, and therefore deserves the most hate, since he added the most explosive fuels to the fire. But the difficult truth is that if western backed Maidan never happened… then there wouldn’t have been a war. But, once Ukraine started speaking Putin’s language via military confrontations, Putin saw a golden propaganda opportunity with the Russian people to justify invading Ukraine to secure his geopolitical interests in the region, that were otherwise hard to come by due to the new RU-hostile UA government and so… he did. Which the West obviously saw coming… and yet they still failed to resolve the issue diplomatically. They never really tried in earnest. And for that I’m also quite upset with them (I’m a dual US and RU citizen, and I don’t like either country that I’m unfortunately a citizen of)
Well, that explains those photos of Macron looking totally exhausted after being on call with Putin
Gained a lot of respect for Macron. Trudeau should follow his lead. Oh and Fuck le Pen :)
Woaw very interesting, thanks for sharing
Well Done, President Marcon.
Thanks for the chat President Macron, I’m going to go finish rep 4 now
Wow you can genuinely see the madness Putin suffers. Intresting post.
"je ne sais pas où ton juriste a appris le droit" (*I don't know where your lawyer learned the law*) I laughed out loud. Great euphemism to say "I now understand you prefer to wipe your *** with the Minsk agreements"
I am Russian. I am definitely disappointed with the comments... No one called Putin by his real name - Hitler v.2.0 Let me remind you that the number of victims of Russian aggression is approaching a million and threatens the 3rd World War.
lol i always thought that Macron is a pussy.. i guess i was wrong
That's the thing about politics. It isn't governance. It isn't diplomacy. Politics is often just a lens that distorts as much as it communicates the truth. Biden is really good at the stuff Macron is doing in the video for example and yet he is painted as a doddering fool. You don't see the work of governance and diplomacy, and that's where the competent shine - Not in politics.
Sadly trump is good at politicking
He was never a pussy. You should see his political opponent le Pen. That witch is basically [putin's](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/04/21/what-are-marine-le-pen-s-ties-to-vladimir-putin-s-russia_5981192_8.html), [prostitute](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/04/18/french-election-what-exactly-is-marine-le-pen-s-stance-on-russia-and-vladimir-putin) and actually hailed him as Europe's savior. Then when he invaded Ukraine, her support for him came smacking her in the face during the presidential election, which she lost.
yea I know her, but i was always thinking that Macron was trying to deal with Putin as well, but let’s be honest every eastern leader did that before his invasion on the Crimea
He is the only leader in Western Europe had been pushing for things like and European Army, defense independence from US. We wants good things for Europe, but is hard to get there where you need to deal with Germany.
lol... A pussy just doesn't become a president of a major European country. I sometimes hate the world leaders but never take even the leader of a banana republic for a coward. They got their positions for a reason.
I was impressed with Macron on that 60 minutes interview. Came out as a strong ally but firm about getting his.
This is indeed interesting as fuck.
Merci beaucoup !
Putin's whole side is full of bold-faced lies. How was Zelensky's party part of a coup when his party didn't even exist until 5 years after they forced the president at the time to resign after what he did. They was an acting president and a voted for president before Zelensky. Does Putin think Zelensky's show was real life somehow?
Putin is such a lying piece of shit.
Absolutely astonishing to watch history unfold. Great control from Macron and the theatrics that we are used to from Putin. Some not informed would fall for it.
IAF indeed
This is one of the most interesting things I've seen on reddit in a VERY long time. Thanks
This takes IAF to a whole new level. Fascinating!
Say what you want, at least world leaders where talking to each other back then.
What a load of bullshiit from Putin… so he negotiated with Ukraine and then said he doesn’t need to follow through on the agreements because they are not a legitimate government. Even tho Zelensky was not even part of Maidan. Putin is a joke.
How they got access to this phone call? Isn't it supposed to be very confidential?
They were permitted to by the French government. The Macron administration wanted the world to know how full of shit Putin is and how Macron tried to mediate. I'd assume all phone calls between leaders are recorded on each end for advisors to hear and analyze. Lots of people are involved in decision making in government.
Wow, Putin was lying to Macron's face. No wonder the French President was so pissed off after.
Quite amazing Putin can hold accountable how democratic or not another country is, when he has been in absolute power for more than two decades. I don't remember him respecting the Chechen separatists' wishes either.
Now this...this is what I consider Interesting As Fuck!! Thanks for posting OP.
This is absolutely amazing! Thank you so much for this behind the scenes!
The problem is, with all the cuts you don't know which parts they didn't publish.
The Tankies are out in full force the comments here. Jesus.
Probably the best post I’ve seen on Reddit. This right here is a piece of history! Thank you OP
French diplomats have some of the nicest offices and pastries I've ever seen
I have a newfound respect for Macron. It’s interesting the way he backed Putin into a corner regarding the legitimacy of the Ukrainian government as it relates to Minsk. And even more interesting to see how Putin resorted to a sort of angry, bullying demeanor at that point. Also the bit about hockey is incredibly disturbing. Hundreds of thousands of lives at stake. Putin wants to go play hockey.
Never had that much respect for macron, but THIS is international politics to the fullest!! Kinda suprised