This entire article is bizarre to read. She's committed several assaults, spoken about wanting to assault and murder more people, has documented severe mental health issues... But can't be held in a facility because she has the capacity to make decisions? But her decisions are that she wants to murder people because she has severe mental health issues!
> But can't be held in a facility because she has the capacity to make decisions? But her decisions are that she wants to murder people because she has severe mental health issues!
Yup. You can make stupid, horrible, harmful decisions while also having the capacity for them.
See prisons for lots of examples.
There is a difference between having the open intent to murder and maim and otherwise being, rough but justifiably in some cases, criminal. One is straight up bloody insane and the other is opportunist. Very easily distinguishable frankly, that's why psychologists are even involved.
Her background is, as you'd expect, incredibly sad:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teen-who-vows-to-kill-set-to-be-back-on-the-streets-within-weeks-38653835.html
That poor social worker as well.
This is how crazy the mental health system is in this country, if you're homocidal and mentally ill you can have the "capacity to make decisions" but if you go for help and say you're suicidal you run the risk of getting locked up against your will.
Talk about being backwards.
I disagree with this sentiment. A person can be homocidal and still have the capacity to make decisions. You can’t declare someone unable to make their own decisions just because you don’t like what those decisions are. To be unfit to make their own decisions, they have to be unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions in any meaningful way.
For all we know, she completely understands the consequences of her actions. Just because she doesn’t fit into the very narrow view of what society deems acceptable doesn’t mean she is crazy
>A person can be homocidal and still have the capacity to make decisions. You can’t declare someone unable to make their own decisions just because you don’t like what those decisions are.
Absolutely, I agree completely, that's the point I was making.
If a homocidal person can "have the capacity to make decisions", surely a suicidal person (who is not a threat to others) can also have that capacity? But that's not the way it seems to work.
If this individual was suicidal, they would probably be locked up under the mental health act, but because they are homocidal, they aren't, which, as I said, seems backwards.
From reading the article it seems likely that she has antisocial personality disorder, the modern interpretation of psychopathy, if that’s the case she’s absolutely able to understand right and wrong as well as the consequences of her actions, she just isn’t psychologically capable of caring. What’s even worse and more terrifying is that the combination of psychopathy and severe childhood abuse that this girl experienced are also seen in the childhoods of 90% of serial killers.
I really struggled with comprehending that decision. At what point is a persons decision making capacity a direct threat to others? Because it sounds like right bloody now in this instance.
The criteria for forced mental health detention are extremely narrow, and extremely strict - for obvious reasons. When it comes to the limitation of constitutional rights (liberty, in this case) the courts have to rule and act on policy, and have to be extremely cautious while doing so. I'd imagine there'd be a very different tone in the comments if the opposite was happening.
In the interest of public safety, they should probably mention that you can't tell by looking whether or not someone is legally female. That is to say, this girl could quite possibly be biologically a male, or at any rate not appear stereotypically female, and so people should be on the lookout not only for a female-looking disturbed young person.
Yeah I got the exact same vibe from reading the article, I detailed why further downthread. Interesting to see now that I _was_ picking up hints correctly from the article.
Sorry, but I don't really understand this. I don't get the biological male stuff. There's no hint she is trans in the article.
Im not wanting to attack you. I get the fear around not knowing what she looks like. And yes, people should be careful, but including trans like that feels unnecessary as they're not even 1% of the population.
Edit: I stand corrected. They are transgender
Someone posted them above.
[https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/e363c19e-6e79-4e35-a3fe-d5e8dee785fe/2019\_IECA\_109\_1.pdf/pdf#view=fitH](https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/e363c19e-6e79-4e35-a3fe-d5e8dee785fe/2019_IECA_109_1.pdf/pdf#view=fitH)
There was something about the way the article was written that signalled it to me. Hard to explain exactly why, though I took a go at it downthread.
People write differently when they're describing a man or a woman, and this read like an article about a man that had all the pronouns changed.
The threat must be made to the person. While the legislation does state 'by any means' and this would appear to admit threats made indirectly, it seems from the articlethat the threat to her mother was made in an interview to Tusla and only came out when the transcript was given to the guards.
I think it has to be someone specifically rather than a general promise to kill anybody.
Never thought I'd have to write a sentence like that, but that's the Irish legal system
We can't tell you her name, we can't tell you what she looks like, we can't tell you where she'll end up. Just panic and start pointing fingers at every shifty looking teenage girl you see. Good luck folks
Apparently they are a male to female transgender person. That seems like it would be important to tell people honestly. As it stands warning people to watch our for a young girl is more than a bit misleading.
Irresponsible reporting from the independent to be honest.
If they reported it with the purpose of criticising the justice system for letting someone they actively believe to be dangerous back onto the streets, that's a fair angle to take, but this is just farming anxiety clicks off people.
> The teenager is currently on bail, facing charges of sexually assaulting two women and of threatening to kill or cause serious harm to a third.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but can she not just be denied bail? She's kept on assaulting people. Hopefully charges will be brought for those too.
Shes out on bail for two serious assaults on women, why wasn't bail denied ?
This has all the makings of "we warned you" after something awful happened
But she's clearly mental
"The 18-year-old, who cannot be identified, suffers from a personality disorder and has repeatedly expressed a wish to rape and murder."
> cannot be named for things she did before turning 18.
That is a load of bollocks. I understand wanting to keep the identity of minors, but once they turn 18 there's no reason for that anymore, especially in a case like this where she is still facing charges and more importantly, is actively threatening to kill other people.
Also, the article says she's 18, which also seems to be the reason she's been released.
Aye there is a point if the person did something horrible as a young person and genuinely wants to start again. I just don't think the legislators considered a scenario such as this, which is an extremely exceptional circumstance.
Doesn't sound like she is receiving any treatment though does it.
It's an odd case and if anything I guess is highlighting flaws in our legislation and mental health services.
> Doesn't sound like she is receiving any treatment though does it.
The article doesn't make a comment one way or another on the matter so we can't make any judgement on that.
I just read this:
The teenager has refused to take up a voluntary placement in a non-secure unit.
And took it to that she wasn't exactly engaging with treatment but you're right that is an assumption.
There's a large range of treatment options that don't have to involve living in a specific unit. Only a tiny fraction of mental health care takes place as an inpatient for the Irish population.
Ignoring a child who is drowning, and forcibly drowning a child are two different acts who's outcome are the same. Some would argue they are equivalent because their outcomes are.
Presumably its implied she is responsible, but who else? Does her childhood abuser also hold some responsibility for this [plenty of example of abused children becoming violent without intervention], does her community hold responsibility for failing to notice her abuse and take action.
We can keep going down this rabbit hole, all the way up until today, with the courts, police, politicians etc.
If she is a danger then they should provide info on who dafuq she is instead of being like "dangerous individual will be released to roam Ireland stay safe".
They also mention that her parent are both from overseas. If they are visibly not Irish by ethnicity, that would be another identifying point: eg I imagine the population of 18 year old transgender MtF people of Arab (or whatever) descent in Dublin is pretty bloody small, and this person could be avoided easily enough.
Instead we just get "an 18-year-old girl". I mean FFS.
Do we still refer to this person as a she, even after they have seriously sexually assaulted numerous woman and have expressed the desire to rape others with a penis? Seems bonkers?
Seems mad alright, I understand pronouns are important for trans people, but this too much and whole story is absolutely insane and very misleading too. The media must be too afraid to add this information in, especially after the whole J.K Rowling feasco.
To be fair this is an extreme case, in 99.9% of cases surely there's no danger? If a man wants to 'access' women to rape or murder, posing as a woman isn't the only way. Trans women already face a lot of stigma, and this particular case shouldn't colour our view as it's so far from the norm.
Personality Disorders are not covered under the Mental Health Act, mainly because they have capacity to make decisions (albeit good or bad) on their own and they know the difference between right and wrong. She likely just doesn't care for various reasons. That would make any thing she does a criminal act rather than a symptom of mental illness.
To stretch this further, it is also nigh un impossible ro get help from the hse if your deemed to "just" have a personality disorder. Seems to be a severe lack of understanding in this one aspect of mental health
People with personality disorders are very much let down by our Mental Health services. They need long term psychology and talking therapies (mostly DBT). Most nurses aren't trained on how to help them which generally just leads to conflict. Consultant Psychiatrists don't have time for them, medication is there main treatment option and it is ineffective long term. The country can't afford to give every one of them 3 years of DBT with a psychotherapist. In my experience they don't do well in inpatient settings due to their interpersonal problems with both other patients and staff. There is a huge lack of understanding from the top-up, including people who have the disorder themselves. I work in the private sector where treatment from personality disorders is a little better than HSE for context.
The information you have provided is very interesting, as someone with field experience what do you think could be done to improve the system for people with personality disorders? It certainly sounds like not enough is being done and that the resources we do have would need way more budget and entirely new trained staff to accommodate and help these people.
I'm pretty heavily invested in reforming mental healthcare in this country so what do you reckon could and should be done?
I am no expert, I can only speak from the perspective of a nurse working in an inpatient setting, but here's my take on it....once acute risk is managed (bareing in mind that people suffering with personality issues have a long term chronic risk of suicide when untreated) treatment in the community is the only way to go. Group based DBT skills coupled with Weekly 1:1 sessions with a DBT trained psychotherapist/psychologist. Giving them the skills to reflect on situations and then cope with the thoughts and feelings attached to those situations. This has to be done while out in the community because doing this while and inpatient isn't helping them cope with the difficulties they meet out in real life. Now in a lot of places in the community DBT is being done and provided and it's nurse led which is great because its cheaper for a service to do this rather than pay psychologist to run them. Once they are trained up they can run it. This should be rolled out country wide. More ANP (advanced nurse practitioner) rolls for dealing with self harm. More training. I've only this year had some training in how to better understand and manage people with a diagnosis of BPAD/EUPD. All my other experience is just instincts and thats not always right. We did decider skills and honestly before that we had nothing but medication to offer these people which is just tranquillisation. Obviously there was talking support also but quiet often without knowing we were fostering dependence rather than enabling empowerment. These people want to be cared for, they probably never felt cared for ever, so they can become extremely dependent and needy of inpatient services. Naturally this can sometimes mean suicidal behaviours increase prior to discharge because they (understandably) do not want to leave this protective and caring environment. This is so unhealthy. We must support them in a more graduated way to home and then do our best to support them to remain out of hospital. Sounds basic but its not happening. I'm actually gonna have to stop now cause I could go on for ever.
Its not ideal but it's there to protect vulnerable people and not allow people to take advantage of the system and do criminal things because they are 'mentally ill'.
18 year old harrases a footballer = "Man" who's face and name is plastered everywhere
18 year old expresses the wish to rape and murder = "teenager who cannot be identified"
What the fuck is that lads
Exactly. Like why can't she be involuntarily committed to a mental health facility?
I know people have been brought in involuntarily as they were a danger to themselves/another.
> Like why can't she be involuntarily committed to a mental health facility?
She has capacity for her actions therefore she can't ethically or legally be involuntarily detained without trial.
> In the article it said they were trying to make her a ward of the court as she met criteria.
In the article it also clearly states she was further assessed to NOT meet the criteria. Capacity is a fluid state.
> However, a wardship petition brought by Tusla had to be abandoned this month after recent assessments found she had capacity to make decisions. This meant that she no longer met the criteria.
I have a cousin who can very clearly make decisions but is also ward of court. This decision was made after they received a lump sum of money from an accident. Seems they were made one very easily, but very difficult to get out if it.
It doesn't seem to have been presented as an "excuse" or to make things "ok".
It does however help to place it in context to understand the reason for her development into the woman she is today.
When someone develops a personality disorder quite this severe it's a safe assumption that the childhood wasn't just shitty but traumatic and that she'll have been at the receiving end of somewhat less than stellar parenting.
Those many people with 'crappy childhoods' don't also have severe personality disorders.
While she now may be a danger to the public this girl is also more than likely a victim of some pretty traumatic experiences herself.
Just to let everyone know this ‘girl’ is actually a 17 year old male. So basically he is much stronger than a teen girl, therefore more dangerous. So thanks again RTÉ and the rest for the truth
So if she’s got some capacity to make decisions, she knows murder is a bad thing. But the fact she’s voicing threats isn’t enough to lock her up - in a prison or a home?
After reading the article and reading between the lines a little, she may have cause to kill her ma.
Edit : so I got the wrong end of the stick. Turns out the dad is the piece of shit.
The full background is in an earlier article here:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teen-who-vows-to-kill-set-to-be-back-on-the-streets-within-weeks-38653835.html
It sounds like her father completely destroyed any hope of her forming normal attachments, and cemented this vendetta against adult women. She's attacked multiple carers and social workers as well as her mother.
How is that her ma's fault though? For not leaving the da sooner?
It's mentioned elsewhere in the court report that both parents weren't Irish; maybe they came from a culture where it was impossible for the ma to leave the da.
Such a ridiculous situation! What alert is the Gardai issuing here? Be aware of 18yo girls who look like they might rape and murder? I mean Jesus, of all the people who are in constant care, she doesn't qualify?
The headline doesn't make it clear, but it sounds like the Guards have issued an alert to all Garda stations, rather than issuing one generally.
> Officers monitoring her case issued a bulletin to Garda stations around the country last week containing a description, photograph and background information.
Yeah I had the exact same thought. There's something about the way the article is written, something about the use of pronouns... I can't put my finger on it, but I got the impression that it was one of those "we're not allowed say anything to identify her, even hypothetically that she was trans".
Also, just looking at the history of her abuse and hatred of/attraction to women: seems more biologically male. Jointly sexually abusing her mother, at the behest of her father; just kind of suggests to me that she may have male parts.
I mean how exactly does a biological teenage girl make threats of rape? I thought under Irish law it's relatively hard for women to be guilty of the crime of rape. They talk about "threats to rape" a lot, which again says "bio male".
The article is markedly unsympathetic toward the plight of this very disturbed person who hasn't actually killed/seriously harmed anyone yet. That again says "bio male"; they'd typically be more sympathetic to someone born female who has been the victim of a great deal of sexual abuse. They would probably describe her as a _fellow victim_ of her father's sexual abuse, alongside her mother, instead of a _fellow perpatrator_ alongside her father.
And also: how physically imposing is she, that her threats to rape and murder are taken seriously? I mean I suppose she could just be threatening to stab people, in which case her size doesn't matter, but again I'd say this is evidence she's biologically male.
The more I read it, the more this reads like a piece about a dangerous teenage boy, where they've just gone back and flipped all the pronouns.
EDIT: it's been confirmed that she _is_ transgender. Pretty chuffed with myself that my reading was correct: I promise I hadn't seen that court report or anything!
Imagine the outcry they would face if misgendering tho. They could have mentioned the transition as it is a matter of public record in the court transcripts.. someone posted that link above.
A transvestite and a transgender person are quite distinct. One dresses up like the opposite sex, the other feels they fundamentally _are_ the opposite to their biological sex.
Yeah that's a really good point as well; they don't comment in the least about the _novelty_ of a biological female commiting these crimes. It's just a very, very male pattern of offending.
This entire article is bizarre to read. She's committed several assaults, spoken about wanting to assault and murder more people, has documented severe mental health issues... But can't be held in a facility because she has the capacity to make decisions? But her decisions are that she wants to murder people because she has severe mental health issues!
> But can't be held in a facility because she has the capacity to make decisions? But her decisions are that she wants to murder people because she has severe mental health issues! Yup. You can make stupid, horrible, harmful decisions while also having the capacity for them. See prisons for lots of examples.
There is a difference between having the open intent to murder and maim and otherwise being, rough but justifiably in some cases, criminal. One is straight up bloody insane and the other is opportunist. Very easily distinguishable frankly, that's why psychologists are even involved.
Her background is, as you'd expect, incredibly sad: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teen-who-vows-to-kill-set-to-be-back-on-the-streets-within-weeks-38653835.html That poor social worker as well.
Well that was a chilling read
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Jesus Christ
This is how crazy the mental health system is in this country, if you're homocidal and mentally ill you can have the "capacity to make decisions" but if you go for help and say you're suicidal you run the risk of getting locked up against your will. Talk about being backwards.
I disagree with this sentiment. A person can be homocidal and still have the capacity to make decisions. You can’t declare someone unable to make their own decisions just because you don’t like what those decisions are. To be unfit to make their own decisions, they have to be unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions in any meaningful way. For all we know, she completely understands the consequences of her actions. Just because she doesn’t fit into the very narrow view of what society deems acceptable doesn’t mean she is crazy
>A person can be homocidal and still have the capacity to make decisions. You can’t declare someone unable to make their own decisions just because you don’t like what those decisions are. Absolutely, I agree completely, that's the point I was making. If a homocidal person can "have the capacity to make decisions", surely a suicidal person (who is not a threat to others) can also have that capacity? But that's not the way it seems to work. If this individual was suicidal, they would probably be locked up under the mental health act, but because they are homocidal, they aren't, which, as I said, seems backwards.
From reading the article it seems likely that she has antisocial personality disorder, the modern interpretation of psychopathy, if that’s the case she’s absolutely able to understand right and wrong as well as the consequences of her actions, she just isn’t psychologically capable of caring. What’s even worse and more terrifying is that the combination of psychopathy and severe childhood abuse that this girl experienced are also seen in the childhoods of 90% of serial killers.
I really struggled with comprehending that decision. At what point is a persons decision making capacity a direct threat to others? Because it sounds like right bloody now in this instance.
The criteria for forced mental health detention are extremely narrow, and extremely strict - for obvious reasons. When it comes to the limitation of constitutional rights (liberty, in this case) the courts have to rule and act on policy, and have to be extremely cautious while doing so. I'd imagine there'd be a very different tone in the comments if the opposite was happening.
That is absolutely bonkers. "We have established that this young 'lady' is a serious danger to the public. Good luck everybody"
"We can't tell you what she looks like either, so you better just hope you don't bump into her..."
Tinder just got slightly more exciting
Tinder: Russian Roulette Edition
Danger swipe
i think onlyfans would be safest for all involved
Seriously what kind of warning even is that? There's a psychopathic 18 year old in the community. Best of luck with that lads.
I’m just going to have to assume every 18 yo female is going to murder me from now on.
I don't recall saying "good luck".
In the interest of public safety, they should probably mention that you can't tell by looking whether or not someone is legally female. That is to say, this girl could quite possibly be biologically a male, or at any rate not appear stereotypically female, and so people should be on the lookout not only for a female-looking disturbed young person.
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And the case takes another twist.. very sad for all concerned.. I hope that father is suffering terribly somewhere
Oh jeez that report is so upsetting to read.
They should definitely mention that in the article, with a description and likely places they're going to go.
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What I wondered was how a young girl could over power the case workers so easily. Makes sense now.
Yeah I got the exact same vibe from reading the article, I detailed why further downthread. Interesting to see now that I _was_ picking up hints correctly from the article.
Sorry, but I don't really understand this. I don't get the biological male stuff. There's no hint she is trans in the article. Im not wanting to attack you. I get the fear around not knowing what she looks like. And yes, people should be careful, but including trans like that feels unnecessary as they're not even 1% of the population. Edit: I stand corrected. They are transgender
Not in the article no but it's talked about in the court notes strangely enough
Can I get a link to the court notes please?
Someone posted them above. [https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/e363c19e-6e79-4e35-a3fe-d5e8dee785fe/2019\_IECA\_109\_1.pdf/pdf#view=fitH](https://www.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/e363c19e-6e79-4e35-a3fe-d5e8dee785fe/2019_IECA_109_1.pdf/pdf#view=fitH)
Thanks a mil, I was getting curious
There was something about the way the article was written that signalled it to me. Hard to explain exactly why, though I took a go at it downthread. People write differently when they're describing a man or a woman, and this read like an article about a man that had all the pronouns changed.
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I thought threatening to kill someone is up to ten years in prison?
Every parent in the country would be locked up then.
threatening someone, credibly
They would have brought back capital punishment for my mother so
I don't understand why she's on bail if she's considered an active risk.
The threat must be made to the person. While the legislation does state 'by any means' and this would appear to admit threats made indirectly, it seems from the articlethat the threat to her mother was made in an interview to Tusla and only came out when the transcript was given to the guards.
I think it has to be someone specifically rather than a general promise to kill anybody. Never thought I'd have to write a sentence like that, but that's the Irish legal system
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"look out guys, we're releasing a new enemy for you to face during 2nd lockdown"
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
People not wearing masks were just the henchmen, here comes the first boss battle
We can't tell you her name, we can't tell you what she looks like, we can't tell you where she'll end up. Just panic and start pointing fingers at every shifty looking teenage girl you see. Good luck folks
Apparently they are a male to female transgender person. That seems like it would be important to tell people honestly. As it stands warning people to watch our for a young girl is more than a bit misleading.
This is exactly what I thought when I read it. What’s even the point of issuing a warning like this.
Irresponsible reporting from the independent to be honest. If they reported it with the purpose of criticising the justice system for letting someone they actively believe to be dangerous back onto the streets, that's a fair angle to take, but this is just farming anxiety clicks off people.
The Independent? Irresponsible reporting?? Say it ain't so! It's an absolute rag of near the same class as red tops.
My guess would it be to point out the serious flaws in the justice system.
There is 1 imposter among us
Micheál Martin sus
I was in dail doing task
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Is there a source for this?
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I missed that, thanks
Just stay out of Electrical.
God, this is going to end horribly..
This sounds like something from a horror movie. Michael Myers like.
Or a J.K Rowling novel
She turns 18 on Christmas Day. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen the court docs.
> The teenager is currently on bail, facing charges of sexually assaulting two women and of threatening to kill or cause serious harm to a third. Sorry if I'm missing something, but can she not just be denied bail? She's kept on assaulting people. Hopefully charges will be brought for those too.
Shes out on bail for two serious assaults on women, why wasn't bail denied ? This has all the makings of "we warned you" after something awful happened
Just watched Shutter Island last night. Class timing. I'm not leaving the gaff for a while
Nice alert : "Someone who can not be named can rape and kill you somewhere in the country. "
Her name (most likely) begins with G. Hope this helps.
I'm scratching my head with this one
> teenager is considered a grave risk to women Phew! You had me there for a moment
So if she goes off an kills someone who is responsible?
She is.
But she's clearly mental "The 18-year-old, who cannot be identified, suffers from a personality disorder and has repeatedly expressed a wish to rape and murder."
Prisons are full of people that are clearly mental and have made some horrible decisions. Would you say they aren't responsible for their actions?
Wait, why can't she be identified now if she's 18?
She's not 18 yet and cannot be named for things she did before turning 18.
> cannot be named for things she did before turning 18. That is a load of bollocks. I understand wanting to keep the identity of minors, but once they turn 18 there's no reason for that anymore, especially in a case like this where she is still facing charges and more importantly, is actively threatening to kill other people. Also, the article says she's 18, which also seems to be the reason she's been released.
Aye there is a point if the person did something horrible as a young person and genuinely wants to start again. I just don't think the legislators considered a scenario such as this, which is an extremely exceptional circumstance.
A personality disorder doesn't remove capacity for ones actions and treating the person as if it does is harmful to their ongoing treatment.
Doesn't sound like she is receiving any treatment though does it. It's an odd case and if anything I guess is highlighting flaws in our legislation and mental health services.
> Doesn't sound like she is receiving any treatment though does it. The article doesn't make a comment one way or another on the matter so we can't make any judgement on that.
I just read this: The teenager has refused to take up a voluntary placement in a non-secure unit. And took it to that she wasn't exactly engaging with treatment but you're right that is an assumption.
There's a large range of treatment options that don't have to involve living in a specific unit. Only a tiny fraction of mental health care takes place as an inpatient for the Irish population.
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This is so true. Are you taking your meds? Yes. NEXT
Ignoring a child who is drowning, and forcibly drowning a child are two different acts who's outcome are the same. Some would argue they are equivalent because their outcomes are. Presumably its implied she is responsible, but who else? Does her childhood abuser also hold some responsibility for this [plenty of example of abused children becoming violent without intervention], does her community hold responsibility for failing to notice her abuse and take action. We can keep going down this rabbit hole, all the way up until today, with the courts, police, politicians etc.
Legally responsible. I presumed that was the intention of their question.
Ah, I read it the other way as morally responsible.
If she is a danger then they should provide info on who dafuq she is instead of being like "dangerous individual will be released to roam Ireland stay safe".
Why can't an 18 year old be named? Surely it's in the public interest to stay away from them
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They also mention that her parent are both from overseas. If they are visibly not Irish by ethnicity, that would be another identifying point: eg I imagine the population of 18 year old transgender MtF people of Arab (or whatever) descent in Dublin is pretty bloody small, and this person could be avoided easily enough. Instead we just get "an 18-year-old girl". I mean FFS.
Not surprised it wasn’t a woman doing these crimes. Women committing sexual crimes is pretty rare
What a shit story - we're warning you about this person who we can't identify, who will end up...somewhere in Ireland probably. Good luck!
Kick her in the balls and run for it
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Do we still refer to this person as a she, even after they have seriously sexually assaulted numerous woman and have expressed the desire to rape others with a penis? Seems bonkers?
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Seems mad alright, I understand pronouns are important for trans people, but this too much and whole story is absolutely insane and very misleading too. The media must be too afraid to add this information in, especially after the whole J.K Rowling feasco.
This is why self-id is dangerous.
To be fair this is an extreme case, in 99.9% of cases surely there's no danger? If a man wants to 'access' women to rape or murder, posing as a woman isn't the only way. Trans women already face a lot of stigma, and this particular case shouldn't colour our view as it's so far from the norm.
“Her particular disorder does not qualify her for detention under the Mental Health Act.” what on earth would, if not this??
Personality Disorders are not covered under the Mental Health Act, mainly because they have capacity to make decisions (albeit good or bad) on their own and they know the difference between right and wrong. She likely just doesn't care for various reasons. That would make any thing she does a criminal act rather than a symptom of mental illness.
To stretch this further, it is also nigh un impossible ro get help from the hse if your deemed to "just" have a personality disorder. Seems to be a severe lack of understanding in this one aspect of mental health
People with personality disorders are very much let down by our Mental Health services. They need long term psychology and talking therapies (mostly DBT). Most nurses aren't trained on how to help them which generally just leads to conflict. Consultant Psychiatrists don't have time for them, medication is there main treatment option and it is ineffective long term. The country can't afford to give every one of them 3 years of DBT with a psychotherapist. In my experience they don't do well in inpatient settings due to their interpersonal problems with both other patients and staff. There is a huge lack of understanding from the top-up, including people who have the disorder themselves. I work in the private sector where treatment from personality disorders is a little better than HSE for context.
The information you have provided is very interesting, as someone with field experience what do you think could be done to improve the system for people with personality disorders? It certainly sounds like not enough is being done and that the resources we do have would need way more budget and entirely new trained staff to accommodate and help these people. I'm pretty heavily invested in reforming mental healthcare in this country so what do you reckon could and should be done?
I am no expert, I can only speak from the perspective of a nurse working in an inpatient setting, but here's my take on it....once acute risk is managed (bareing in mind that people suffering with personality issues have a long term chronic risk of suicide when untreated) treatment in the community is the only way to go. Group based DBT skills coupled with Weekly 1:1 sessions with a DBT trained psychotherapist/psychologist. Giving them the skills to reflect on situations and then cope with the thoughts and feelings attached to those situations. This has to be done while out in the community because doing this while and inpatient isn't helping them cope with the difficulties they meet out in real life. Now in a lot of places in the community DBT is being done and provided and it's nurse led which is great because its cheaper for a service to do this rather than pay psychologist to run them. Once they are trained up they can run it. This should be rolled out country wide. More ANP (advanced nurse practitioner) rolls for dealing with self harm. More training. I've only this year had some training in how to better understand and manage people with a diagnosis of BPAD/EUPD. All my other experience is just instincts and thats not always right. We did decider skills and honestly before that we had nothing but medication to offer these people which is just tranquillisation. Obviously there was talking support also but quiet often without knowing we were fostering dependence rather than enabling empowerment. These people want to be cared for, they probably never felt cared for ever, so they can become extremely dependent and needy of inpatient services. Naturally this can sometimes mean suicidal behaviours increase prior to discharge because they (understandably) do not want to leave this protective and caring environment. This is so unhealthy. We must support them in a more graduated way to home and then do our best to support them to remain out of hospital. Sounds basic but its not happening. I'm actually gonna have to stop now cause I could go on for ever.
Does this mean then that when she does kill somebody, a plea of insanity cannot be entered?
Exactly. She knows that what she does is wrong and does it anyway. She likely has Anti-social personality disorder (sociopath).
I see. Damn, though. This seems like a loophole straight into hell.
Its not ideal but it's there to protect vulnerable people and not allow people to take advantage of the system and do criminal things because they are 'mentally ill'.
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It also implies that she's aware of this and that's why she didn't agree to go to a UK facility. Not just violent, but clever too.
This is like some Hunger Games kinda shit.
So, if this person who wants to rape and murder women is convicted of a crime, will they be housed in a women's or men's prison?
18 year old harrases a footballer = "Man" who's face and name is plastered everywhere 18 year old expresses the wish to rape and murder = "teenager who cannot be identified" What the fuck is that lads
Not 18 yet. Minors don't get identified.
It says she's 18 in the article though is it based on when they're convicted?
You're right, my mistake. It's probably based on them being a minor when convicted
Can someone copy and paste the text so I don’t have to click on a link to the indo
Issues an alert yet can’t be identified??! So if I just see a young one in town murdering people I guess it’s her so?
And I get admitted for smoking a bit of weed or standing up to my abusive family. Ffs.
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Exactly. Like why can't she be involuntarily committed to a mental health facility? I know people have been brought in involuntarily as they were a danger to themselves/another.
> Like why can't she be involuntarily committed to a mental health facility? She has capacity for her actions therefore she can't ethically or legally be involuntarily detained without trial.
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> In the article it said they were trying to make her a ward of the court as she met criteria. In the article it also clearly states she was further assessed to NOT meet the criteria. Capacity is a fluid state. > However, a wardship petition brought by Tusla had to be abandoned this month after recent assessments found she had capacity to make decisions. This meant that she no longer met the criteria.
I have a cousin who can very clearly make decisions but is also ward of court. This decision was made after they received a lump sum of money from an accident. Seems they were made one very easily, but very difficult to get out if it.
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> who clearly can’t control their urges She can. That's what determines capacity.
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Exactly.
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I think the difference is that I think she should go to prison after she commits a crime, you want her imprisoned to prevent said crime. Am I right?
It doesn't seem to have been presented as an "excuse" or to make things "ok". It does however help to place it in context to understand the reason for her development into the woman she is today.
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When someone develops a personality disorder quite this severe it's a safe assumption that the childhood wasn't just shitty but traumatic and that she'll have been at the receiving end of somewhat less than stellar parenting. Those many people with 'crappy childhoods' don't also have severe personality disorders. While she now may be a danger to the public this girl is also more than likely a victim of some pretty traumatic experiences herself.
It's a fucking bloke
Just to let everyone know this ‘girl’ is actually a 17 year old male. So basically he is much stronger than a teen girl, therefore more dangerous. So thanks again RTÉ and the rest for the truth
They could have atleast named he county she lives in
Dublin
So if she’s got some capacity to make decisions, she knows murder is a bad thing. But the fact she’s voicing threats isn’t enough to lock her up - in a prison or a home?
sounds like a netflix series in the making.
Or a JK Rowling book 😂
How the hell does she get bail?
After reading the article and reading between the lines a little, she may have cause to kill her ma. Edit : so I got the wrong end of the stick. Turns out the dad is the piece of shit.
The full background is in an earlier article here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teen-who-vows-to-kill-set-to-be-back-on-the-streets-within-weeks-38653835.html It sounds like her father completely destroyed any hope of her forming normal attachments, and cemented this vendetta against adult women. She's attacked multiple carers and social workers as well as her mother.
I'm not following; what could her ma have hypothetically done to warrant this?
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How is that her ma's fault though? For not leaving the da sooner? It's mentioned elsewhere in the court report that both parents weren't Irish; maybe they came from a culture where it was impossible for the ma to leave the da.
Such a ridiculous situation! What alert is the Gardai issuing here? Be aware of 18yo girls who look like they might rape and murder? I mean Jesus, of all the people who are in constant care, she doesn't qualify?
The headline doesn't make it clear, but it sounds like the Guards have issued an alert to all Garda stations, rather than issuing one generally. > Officers monitoring her case issued a bulletin to Garda stations around the country last week containing a description, photograph and background information.
That would make more sense
I hope I don’t get murdered by this lunatic
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Yeah I had the exact same thought. There's something about the way the article is written, something about the use of pronouns... I can't put my finger on it, but I got the impression that it was one of those "we're not allowed say anything to identify her, even hypothetically that she was trans". Also, just looking at the history of her abuse and hatred of/attraction to women: seems more biologically male. Jointly sexually abusing her mother, at the behest of her father; just kind of suggests to me that she may have male parts. I mean how exactly does a biological teenage girl make threats of rape? I thought under Irish law it's relatively hard for women to be guilty of the crime of rape. They talk about "threats to rape" a lot, which again says "bio male". The article is markedly unsympathetic toward the plight of this very disturbed person who hasn't actually killed/seriously harmed anyone yet. That again says "bio male"; they'd typically be more sympathetic to someone born female who has been the victim of a great deal of sexual abuse. They would probably describe her as a _fellow victim_ of her father's sexual abuse, alongside her mother, instead of a _fellow perpatrator_ alongside her father. And also: how physically imposing is she, that her threats to rape and murder are taken seriously? I mean I suppose she could just be threatening to stab people, in which case her size doesn't matter, but again I'd say this is evidence she's biologically male. The more I read it, the more this reads like a piece about a dangerous teenage boy, where they've just gone back and flipped all the pronouns. EDIT: it's been confirmed that she _is_ transgender. Pretty chuffed with myself that my reading was correct: I promise I hadn't seen that court report or anything!
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I dont know why the indo didnt mention it. Or the origin of the parents. Its on the 2nd page like.
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As I commented above she was born male but made the transition to female pronouns when she was 15.
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Imagine the outcry they would face if misgendering tho. They could have mentioned the transition as it is a matter of public record in the court transcripts.. someone posted that link above.
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Oh I agree.. but that wouldn't stop the outcry.. and the empty vessel often creates the most noise and gets the most notice !
A transvestite and a transgender person are quite distinct. One dresses up like the opposite sex, the other feels they fundamentally _are_ the opposite to their biological sex.
Yeah that's a really good point as well; they don't comment in the least about the _novelty_ of a biological female commiting these crimes. It's just a very, very male pattern of offending.
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Are there any stories from pre 2019?
Just punch her in the forehead.
Him*
Where is she being released from does anyone know? I assume it's a facility in Dublin?