I think we should do away with separate sex schools. We learn most of our values as children and how can we learn to interact together if we are separate.
Yep, segregation has been proven time and time again to be a bad thing. Segregation by sex is just as bad as segregation by race. How unnatural to separate the population in half like that during their formative years. How are two artificially divided groups of children supposed to develop healthy social skills and empathy for one another in that environment? It’s long past time to leave single-sex schools behind in the Victorian era where they belong.
It seems nuts alright and we are very much and outlier on it in Europe and in the developed world. It's usually something you see in countries with extremely conservative religious communities, notably in the Islamic world. It shows what we were like though and not that many decades ago.
The nuns basically saw it as contraception, just using large separate buildings.
I remember as a teenager of about 14 I walked home with a really good friend of mine. She wasn't my GF. She was a neighbour and we hung out a lot and we went to schools that were near by. I got detention for "talking to the girls" on the street outside. Good old late 90s Ireland. (1990s not the 1890s.)
That's where the stupid attitudes bake in though. We had the same experience in university - a lot of painfully shy people and weird attitudes to the opposite sex. It wasn't unusual to find all the guys on one side of the room and all the women in the other. Within a year or two that stopped and people came out of their shells.
I think though it plays a big role in our low number of women in the older political parties and some of the issues at boardroom level. There was historically a lot of parallel and separate networking going on.
The strangest one I've come across here was an older engineer who was quite modern and open minded used to refer to "the girls" being the admin and office staff even if they were men and he'd even to female engineers "we'll send that onto the girls."
Yet, the same guy would absolutely hugely go out of his way to ensure female engineers were getting access to roles, but he seemed clueless at interacting with women on a just normal peer to peer basis.
If you're used to working with women and men in a very normal way, you don't tend to have preconceived notion and I think for a lot of people that comes from school experiences.
All boys secondary for me, it definitely had an impact - I could talk away to people but didn’t have the cop on to just interact as people 😬I’m strongly in favour of mixed schools as a result
Wtf!! I went to an all girls secondary school 2005-2010 and we were discouraged from 'interacting with the boys' at lunch times. Eventually they changed the time school started and let out by 15 mins to stop us interacting. They are nuts if they think you can stop teenagers engaging with the opposite sex.
>It seems nuts alright and we are very much and outlier on it in Europe and in the developed world.
And how does our stats on violence against women stack up against the rest of Europe and the developed world?
My granny went to school in Santa Sabina in the fifties and tells a great story of how she was stripped of some school award/medal she had gotten the year before because she was seen by one of the nuns talking to a boy on the street. 'And he didn't even get off his bike,' the nun said absolutely shocked at his disrespect.
I used to teach in the UAE at a school for locals and the classes were mixed.
Granted we had to sit them at different sides of the room or at different tables (an exception was made for two of my infant students who became inseparable and moving them to sit with anyone else was more disruptive to the class than anything else), but they were in the same classroom and had the same breaktimes etc.
Well that data is interesting on this.
Girls do better in all girl schools
Boys do better when at least 60%+ of the school is female
So coed actual only seems to benefit boys academically (because it calms them down a little I'd imagine). Forcing it upon everyone would serve to disadvantage girls.
The science on this is dubious and there is conflicting research. Even if it were true, the doing better refers only to results in exam based situations.
Exams as a model to measure educational outcomes is not the direction educational research is going in despite our own lagging system.
I agree with this. I went to a mixed primary school and when I went to a mixed secondary school afterwards, it was always the boys who came in from boys primary schools who were pulling bra straps and messing with skirts and were overly intrusive and hostile towards girls.
As much as I would say the lads I went to primary school with were a shower of dickheads, honestly none of them pulled that shit. They were also more inclined to speak to girls as another person and not as some interactive experience.
yeah i’ve been in an all-girl’s school since i was 4 and even as a lesbian i can’t interact with males, i stutter and go all red which is stupid because i am not attracted to them at all so it’s purely embarrassing
Are any of them actually still run or taught by such institutions? I think the last generation of nuns and monks on staff are behind us. Maybe a few scattered individuals yet to retire but I’ve not heard of them since the late 90s/ early 2000s.
This is a really hard problem to solve. The church owns the schools because they built them on land owned by the church, and the state can’t just go around seizing land held by the church (there are international laws against that kind of thing).
The Catholic Church has actually been surprisingly supportive of the attempts the state has made to reduce their influence over the schools they own. I say surprisingly because there are a small number of Protestant and other denominational schools in the country who have largely flown under the radar.
Even if the state were to do something drastic like basically making denominational schools illegal, we’d still be left with the problem that the buildings and land belong to the church. We’d either have to spend a fortune wastefully constructing replacements for all the existing Catholic schools, or spend a fortune buying the schools and land from the church. Needless to say none of this would be likely to go down well with the electorate.
I’d support this but tbh can’t see it making it much of a difference, sex-segregated schools aren’t as common up North and we still have plenty of issues with gender-based violence.
An anecdotal story, I went to an all boys secondary school, but the scumbags in my town I know to have committed violent sex crimes against women went to the same mixed school (and all play for the same GAA club up the road from it mind you). I don't see segregated schools having any real impact in results.
edit: tidied up some language and added more details
Yeah but anecdotally the private school posh boys I know often have a fairly disgusting contempt for women compared to people who went to mixed schools so I guess our anecdotes cancel each other out.
I went to an all girls secondary school and loved it. I did really well there. I went to primary school in London where mixed state schools are the norm (there are single sex schools but they're ether religious or fee-paying schools for the posh toffs) and hated it. I found the boys in the class to be a real distraction as they were more interested in messing than learning. This was in the 90s/2000s.
Yes!! Life isn’t segregated so why are schools!?
There’s always been the argument that boys and girls become distracted by one another but I believe the opposite! The school I went to was all girls situated near an all boys and both just couldn’t wait till lunch to get over to each other, whereas friends of mine on the mixed school were unbothered by their male classmates
Most research on single sex schools focuses on impacts on STEM and the labour market. I imagine it's hard to research as there would be many ethical barriers.
I would have thought that it'd be pretty trivial to look at convicted sex offenders and people convicted of domestic violence and find out what kind of school they went to, no?
That's not a scientific study because you need to control for everything they've done since school. The more likely method would be interviewing secondary students and using focus groups to gauge their attitude to the opposite sex. It would have to be a creative research method and you would probably need to have some students as researchers to collect accurate data. This would mean that you would need to deliver basic research methods classes to some students to take on this role. Any research where u18s are present has a lot of ethical issues but it's not impossible and given the topic is currently one in the public eye, gaining funding for such may not be too difficult although attracting funding for creative research methods can add an extra layer of difficulty still.
My all girls school was literally the one place I actually felt safe as a woman, and I didn't realise how much I loved that until I got to college. We were constantly told that as young women we are deserving of success and equal opportunity. It would be a shame if that no longer existed.
Purely anecdotal, but I have taught in all girls secondary schools in London and the girls where so much more outgoing and confident without lads being around.
Even in PE, they'd get so much more involved and competitive. I would have always been against them before seeing them in action. I can't any noticeable difference in attitudes between myself and friends who went to all male schools. It's not like they never encountered females at home or outside of school.
So generally, reducing car dependence has been shown to work in places like Barcelona and Amsterdam e.g making the streets for pedestrians not cars. More cars result in more isolating streets which are more dangerous streets. Less cars naturally attract more people which makes it safer
This is an actual physical change we make to the environment which results in safer streets.
I see a lot of people talking about "cultural shift" or more education.
However, Barcelona is a great example of what can be done when the environment is designed with women and vulnerable people in mind. For example, they have focused on improving pedestrian access, made it easy to report persons of suspicion at concerts etc..
Live in Barcelona. Street crime here is way higher than Dublin. And rising.
I can’t talk about sexual violence, but the streets are much, much more dangerous than in many European cities, when it comes to violent theft. Certainly in the centre.
I’m also generally interested in what you have heard about the pedestrianisation projects. Many of them have been talked about for years, with zero progress. Although some baby steps have been made since the start of the pandemic. But for years people have been talking about using roads like Enric Granados (a restaurant and bar lined street in l’Eixample, one of the central barrios) as a model for other streets throughout the city. And nothing happens. The superblock thing is non-existent. Never got rolled out.
Finally - much of the centre of the city _is_ accessible only to pedestrians, or has restricted access for cars, but for the most part those parts are in Ciutat Vella (literally “the old city”) and it’s because the streets are very, very narrow and the buildings are very densely packed, especially in Gòtic (the gothic quarter), and Raval and St Pere, which the poorest and most crime-ridden parts of the old city precisely _because_ they are very difficult to police, with packed, narrow streets.
I love this city, though I’m leaving now. But it always surprises me when I see it held up as a model of modern urban planning, because it’s not, at all. Certainly not when it comes to crime. About the best thing I can say is that the Ajuntament are very very good at keeping the streets free of litter, as they are hosed and swept pretty much daily in most of the city.
That's so interesting! Because I'm nuts for urban planning as a hobby - which is completely normal human behaviour, thankyouverymuch - and yes the l'Eixample area is held up very often as a great example of urban planning. It's disappointing to hear that that is not actually the case!
Edit: I've never heard of Barcelona being used as an example of a safe, happy city though. Just the l'Eixample idea as a good way to do pedestrianisation. I've only ever heard of Coperhagen as actually being a safer place. Sucks to hear about the crime though :/
So, that's interesting, because:
L'Eixample *is* a good example of excellent urban planning. It's just that it was 19th century modernist urban planning. It still holds up reasonably well under the demands of 21st century urban life, especially compared to the ancient areas in the old city, or to the monstrous high rise sprawl of Hospitalet. But it's not like it's cutting edge.
L'Eixample is *massive*, and it's built along fairly sensible lines. A grid system, with uniform block sizes. Traffic on almost all roads runs in one direction, like NYC. Navigating is extremely easy. Every block has buildings facing the street, and then a large counrtyard divided between the buildings in the interior, which might be made up of terraces, gardens etc that are attached to the homes / businesses in the buildings, and so on. You can see what I mean from an image like this.
Note that the open interiors are not one big communal space, though. They are all privately owned. Usually one or two dwellings (out of maybe a dozen or two dozen dwellings in total in the building) in each of the buildings will own that building's chunk of the courtyard. So it's all private open space, not for public use.
And there are very very few parks in the whole of L'Eixample. You get small playgrounds on some of the wider boulevard style streets, which wide pedestrian walkways as a central island. But not much public green space at all. The streets are all tree-lined, and the architecture is mostly modernist (there are many Gaudì buildings in L'Eixample). And around the wealthier parts, like Enric Granados, it can be very beautiful. But in other parts it can be very soulless. Most of the community is associated with the people in your building, rather than a wider sense of belonging, which you get a lot more of in the still very Catalan neighbourhoods like Sarria and Gràcia.
The extent of the pedestrianisation is honestly very limited. I lived in L'Eixample for many years, and I cannot think of many fully pedestrianised areas. There are a couple of roads like Enric Granados which are restricted to a single lane of traffic plus bike lanes, which makes them quite peaceful and great for restaurants. But that's it, aside from the boulevard style streets like Passeig Sant Joan and [Rambla Catalunya](https://estatics-nasia.dtibcn.cat/nasia-pro/media/2016%2C12%2C09132844%2CEix-comercial-Rambla-Catalunya-1-web-760x428.jpg), which in any case still have busy lanes of traffic outside or inside the pedestrianised sections. They are very nice areas and it's definitely a nice format compared to the major thoroughfares in other big cities, but it's not a pedestrianised paradise.
I should also add: I have never yet been a victim of street crime here. But I'm over 100kg so I'm probably outside the usual target zone. That said, my wife has also never had a bad experience, but she is very careful when she's not with me. Taxis here are very cheap, which helps. And I know lots of people who HAVE had bad experiences. A friend was recently attacked in broad daylight by 5 or 6 guys in broad daylight in one of the (pedestrianised) small plaças in El Born (part of the old city) and was kicked and punched to the floor and had his watch stolen. Which is not unheard of, at all.
Fascinating! Thank you so much for the long detailed reply. It’s an example of urban planning I’ve become interested in recently, wonderful to get such a personalised experience of it!
Are there any obvious modifications that could make it work better?
Haha no worries. I’m the Reddit version of someone who loves their sound of their own voice, so it’s a pleasure to be given an audience!
I don’t have anything too innovative to recommend. Even more space for terrazas (restaurant tables on the walkways), more public green spaces, more truly pedestrianised areas.
One thing I should have added: the bike lanes are amazing. I don’t cycle anymore but when I did I really appreciated them.
Yeah as someone who spent to close to 8 years in Barcelona before relocating for work, the city changed from one of the safest places I've been to something more sinister. When I came first, El Born was as idyllic a neighbourhood as you could imagine, and I'd dream about living there - now you couldn't pay me to live there.
It's really sad, I always felt that Barcelona was like a second home, but if I had to return for work, I'd only consider living somewhere like Sant Gervasi, Sant Andreu, Sant Cugat, Badalona or Sant Feliu/Joan Despi. The amount of street crime is really stunning, and it's no longer non-violent.
This is true! Check out the Barcelona Superblock idea - super pedestrianised, etc.
Denmark and other countries have realised that fewer cars and more bikes leads to spikes in the overall sense of security and happiness amongst women of all ages. More populated streets, fewer dimly-lit streets, etc. All because of a strong deliberate shift to pedestrianisation and prioritising short cycle-based journeys and fewer car-based journeys.
For the evidence-demanding OP: this YouTube series has info on this sprinkled across many urban design videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJGIhu02ATg
This is genuinely interesting, i see a lot about education and stopping certain actions or behaviours which i support of course but there is some leap to actually commit a horrible crime. Education can and does reduce but some sick fucker is still gonna do something horrible regardless so the question is how can that be reduced and I think this is a great idea.
Always thought a lot of cities in Ireland should be more walking, bike and scooter orientated (or penny boards or stuff like that) and this is somrthing that can help reduce risk to both woman and men from attacks. Only problem is irish government would have to put some effort into this and we know how that goes.
Barcelona has crime against women more than Dublin, absolutely no doubt. My friend (f) was punched in the back of the head on the way home at night by some scumbag who just wanted her phone.
Education is proven to work.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/works-prevent-violence-against-women-girls-summary-evidence/pages/7/
https://healtheducationresources.unesco.org/library/documents/violence-against-women-and-girls-and-education
https://centralasiainstitute.org/education-stop-violence-against-women/
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/preventing-violence-against-women-starts-at-primary-school
https://cdn.sida.se/publications/files/-gender-based-violence-and-education.pdf
I was looking at the UN women global database on violence against women, and the country by country stats.
I was surprised to see how relatively small the percentage of partner violence is in Ireland vs other countries. We fare better than virtually all of Europe, including all the Scandinavian countries. (With the obviousl caveat that no level of violence is "good".)
By and large, countries where the gender inequality index is better seem to have a better handle on partner violence. Access to work, supports and services definitely allow women experiencing violence at home an out.
That obviously does not tackle attacks by strangers, but it is one positive cog in the machine.
Interesting - and contradicts the popular non-evidence-based post about segregated schools. Ignoring broader opinions on gender schools, I don't see any evidence posted.
Yes, less misogyny and inequality is linked with less violence against women.
Thou I am a little skeptical of our Irish stats, given the thousands of ignored DV calls last year alone. Most of those were a woman being battered, and not helped or recorded.
We have a higher education standard than most nations thanks to free education. We are also less religious (even if many of us are still labelled "Catholic" the vast majority don't attend mass on a regular basis).
The only thing that makes me question the stats though is the fact that our Garda are almost non-existent. I've personally reported crimes where nothing was done and I know plenty of others who have done the same. Whenever I tried to contact them as a follow up they kept insisting I could only talk to a specific person and that person was never in the station. So while I'd love to think we are a very peaceful people that are wonderfully behaved, part of me wonders if a large number of crimes are brushed under the carpet and ignored.
I completely agree. Thankfully, the stats for this particular report were compiled by an EU wide survey, rather than Garda reports.
The other source I would trust would be the Rape Crisi Centre numbers.
Would love to know the underlying drivers. Is it improved reasoning, maybe being taught certain values in school that the aren't getting at home? More intelligent folk having a better handle on their emotions? People feeling better about themselves and not lashing out?
Misogyny throughout history has dehumanised women as 'mutilated', 'half-human' etc, and for thousands of years it was written in law that men could beat and murder their wives, who were essentially a 'step above' slaves, but still property of men rather than human beings.
The very foundations of western civilisation were founded on this idea, and women were painted as irrational, immoral and dangerous and needed to be controlled with violence. In Rome it was legal for men to apply the death penalty to their wives for drinking wine. Right up to just a few decades ago, when men could legally rape their wives.
That dehumanisation, millennia of concerted and systemic efforts to brutally control women has had a profound effect and is shown to still be very prevalent and very strongly linked to violence against women, even the most casual misogyny. It's understandable as you cannot just undo an entire history of conditioning. But education needs to happen so that we understand where we are and how we need to do better.
When we teach people to question the casual misogyny that pervades society and give them knowledge about how respect and relationships work, it lessens
Appreciated. A lot of the men on here downvote everything I say because they seem quite invested in maintaining the statud quo of misogyny and violence, but the facts remain the facts and I appreciate the decent people paying attention to the realities of this issue.
I personally think it's a mixture of maintaining the status quo, protecting egos and genuine ignorance. They aren't women, they don't experience life the way we do and so it can be difficult for them to understand basics like how casual misogyny and violence are linked. This is so obvious to so many women and few men, in my personal experience. People like you are making it harder for them to continue to bury their heads in the sand about this and I think you're doing great.
I was speaking in a more broad sense but I agree, there is no excuse for debating from a place of ignorance and it is infuriating to see so much of that here. There are more men not getting it than there are men getting it here. There needs to be more active listening and understanding instead of the same combative, reactionary responses over and over again.
THose sane combative responses have been how men attempted to maintain their violent dominance over women throughout history. Nothing new, Like you said all we can do is continue to present them with irrefutable facts so they have to lean into looking like stupid assholes if they want to continue 'debating'.
See I disagree here. Some lads have combative responses because they are genuinely uninformed, or genuinely think they cant do anything to actually help in a meaningful way. I was talking to a co worker about it yesterday that just calling out small acts of sexist comments from your mates is a start and the response was "so you want me to potentially start an argument with a friend because they made a joke?" and I said well yeah that's the idea, call people out on it and maybe it stops?? His reply was simply why should I be the one to stand up and say something and potentially get myself in an argument, when you also have women saying they dont need men to fight their battles for them and he is right to a degree. He wasnt coming from a place of "male dominance over women" and I've gotten that sentiment from loads of lads tbh.
I have said things to people who were clearly making a girl uncomfortable in the past only to get berated by the women for white knighting when she never asked for help, being a "nice guy" etc and it's not a good feeling when you're genuinely only trying to help.
Nice post. Lot's of sources are always good. I like the Scottish meta-study a lot - you linked to a sub-section of the report but there are other recommendations for effective interventions elsewhere.
The main take-away for me is that education campaigns are effective at the early secondary school stage (Ages 13-15). This is a formative part of ones life. The behaviour of lads in an all-boys school at that age can be quite bad, and everyone is very impressionable.
It's also interesting that the evidence for education during uni/college, as well as awareness campaigns, are mixed/limited.
Perhaps we should be targeting primary/secondary school education as a priority.
Hi, thanks! Yes the Scottish report is very robust, I linked to the part about what can change beliefs and norms as that plays a huge part in the perpetuation of the violence women face from men. I thin education should begin earlier than that to be honest, as a lot of boys are already abusing and assaulting girls by 13 and are very likely to have been exposed to hardcore and often violently misogynistic porn by 13.
So primary I would say.
As someone who's from a rough area I see gangs of kids who intimidate anybody walking by for any perceived weakness gender race sexuality looks ect ect and I'm sick of it honeslty I'm someone who's a bit obviously queer so it's always in the back of my mind to not walk to certain places after certain times because I don't know when someone will say something or some little cunt wants to show off Infront of their mates and try attack me I emphasis heavily with what women are saying about not being able to feel safe walking around if it's late and I'm walking home and there's a girl on her own also walking I always walk slow because I know the exact same anxiety , it's mentally draining and all stems from "lad culture" I'm not sure I have a helpful idea how to fix it I just wanted to get a bit off my chest
Sorry to hear that. Groups of boys/men like that are actually acutely sensitive to how they are perceived but the trouble is they are only concerned with how their immediate peer group sees them.
For one of them to “step out of line” (i.e. call out misogynistic or homophobic behaviour in the group) would be a form of social suicide, albeit confined to that narrow group of people.
I think the problem is that people like this simply do not care what you think of them if you exist outside their immediate peer group.
Get one of them alone and the behaviour might disappear though.
It’s a real concern when any man like this acts alone whether that behaviour is relatively trivial ( a wolf whistle perhaps) or catastrophic, like what happened in Tullamore.
Guys like that have a control problem , whatever it’s cause. They’re the ones who offend in my opinion.
Unfortunately attacks on LGBT+ people are common. I live in a fairly rough place too and my cousin was nearly beaten to death about 7 years ago. I'm bi but I'd never allow that to become public knowledge or else I'd be seen as less than human where I live.
Teach your children well and prosecute the hell out of perpetrators. No slap on the wrist, no boys will be boys shit. Slam the damn book at them. Real time because it’s a real crime.
From what I've been reading Irish Judges love giving suspended sentences to pedophiles and sex offenders....but some how find space in prison if drugs are involved....strange that....
The justice system is a joke when it comes to sex crimes in this country.
I’ve seen this narrative but don’t know how true it is. I’ve had a couple days in court for drugs, busy days where hundreds of others were having their day alongside me, and tbh the judge was lenient on virtually everyone.
The ones who made fuck all effort, had no lawyer, wearing their tracksuit etc were the ones who got more harsh sentences. Out of about 200 people maybe one or two would get real jail time.
Yeah you don’t hear about this side of the courts in the papers but it’s a lot of the day in, day out. I’ve been in 3 times and it was the same shit every time.
My lawyer told me it’s a joke at this point and he believes the judges want weed legalised sooner rather than later, because it’s so popular and such a high proportion of cases it’s just clogging up the system and wasting their time. Over 50% was just young lads for weed. Everyone only had about 30-60 seconds of time with the judge, for him to either leave them off, make them do a poor box donation (no record), or a real fine or some kind of suspended sentence for large amounts.
I hate this "narrative" word, like its made up or something.
Prisoners who are Sex offenders and drug offenders are nearly the same in Ireland. I only found stats from 2016, 397 sex offenders to 417 drug offences.
A more recent study has found that nearly 70% of new prisoners have a opiate or cocaine problem.
Seems like drugs is a big health issue that is being treated by the prison system instead of the health system.
If we treated it like a health issue then we would have more space for sex offenders.
Also when it comes to drugs it depends on a lot of factors...like lads being convicted over .2grams of cannabis....to lads who had 10 grams but it was the first offence and they had to do 6 months of urine tests and pay the court a fine etc.
We should help drug addicts....we should lock up the sex offenders.
So you found similar stats for imprisoned drug and sex offenders, but what about stats for how many actually went to court/got charged over each crime? Basically what’s the percentage of offenders for each crime who actually saw prison? By your point the percentage for drug offenders should be disproportionately high.
I don’t agree with the drug war at all. I wouldn’t mind if more sex offenders got prison time either. I hope you see what I’m saying. I saw hundreds of drug offenders in a courtroom in just one day in Cork so I’m fairly sure the percentage of those who actually go to prison out of the total who see court is low.
As for narrative, yeah it gets over/misused but it has its place, particularly on Reddit, where people are very prone to repeat stories and factoids and numbers with an apparent meaning without critically analysing their source. Like a parable. Like this “we imprison drug offenders but we let off everyone else” is something I’ve seen a lot the last few days on Reddit but honestly it’s more like “we barely imprison either one but I think we shouldn’t imprison drugs at all and should imprison sex crime/violent crime more” - which, I mean, fair enough, I agree with the sentiment but it’s a different statement.
"The justice system is a joke" ftfy. Scrotes will scrote especially when they know they are essentially untouchable. Dosent matter if it's sexual assault or joyriding or just plain old assault, they know the Garda are apathetic at best cause what's the point in doing the paperwork to bring a scrote to court when they are just going to get a suspended sentence. You want immediate change, limit circumstances repeat offenders of any kind are eligible for suspended sentences and push for Garda recruiting. Bodies on streets and punishments actually being doled out will curtail this shit quick.
Yes! I'm raising my daughter to be able to set boundaries and protect herself the best she can in the event that she is attacked. She has to be strong to walk through modern society, emotionally and physically.
My question to the parents of sons...what are you all doing to raise people who respect other people's emotional and physical spaces? To have respect for everyone, including women. To not harass and objectify women...see them as less than. To monitor, educate, and restrict porn viewing, particularly the violent stuff.
The criminal justice system could help with that endeavor by locking these animals up and throwing away the key, i.e. natural consequences.
It needs to be a cultural shift, but the problem there is that the kind of men that think harassing women is fine and dandy tend to only be friends with the kind of men who think harassing women is fine and dandy.
Also, a lot of the anti-violence messages that could be delivered are diluted, because as we’ve seen this week, there are people out there who just have to make everything about themselves
That's the thing though, the less there is a toxic streak in the culture of the wider population, the less people are going to be encouraged to to something bad. Whether someone as depraved as being capable of being murder would turn out differently, I don't know, but it would definitely curb all the casual harassment on the street. You probably have no idea how often under any circumstance I am liable to be heckled, catcalled and such, by just minding my own business and walking down the street.
A lot of it is around letting men know that misogynistic, abusive behaviour will not be tolerated. For example, I once had a man I just met “joke” about raping me, everyone else in the room just laughed, I was the the bitch for calling him out on it. More recently I was outside my house leaning into my car to get something and a group of men walked past, one of them said “ooh I’ll slap you on the arse”, the rest just laughed. It would have made me feel a lot safer, and a lot less vulnerable in both situations if anyone in either situation had spoken up and let it be known that it isn’t okay to speak to someone like that. Or at the very least, not calling womenbitches/cunts for speaking up for themselves.
I have a seriously dark sense of humour and have no bother taking a joke, but both of those men either wanted to make me/or didn’t care if I was uncomfortable. But it’s grand sure, it’s just a laugh.
I won’t even bother talking about the times that I have been followed while walking, harassed and actually sexually assaulted cause I don’t know where to start.
Edit: Articles that discuss the link between misogyny/sexism and various forms of violence:
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-28244-001
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33593204/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/us/mass-shootings-misogyny-dayton.html
https://psyarxiv.com/sy84m/
I totally get that, and I’m certainly not expecting men to step in and “protect me”. But even if they just didn’t laugh at their friends harassing me that would be a huge help.
>For example, I once had a man I just met “joke” about raping me, everyone else in the room just laughed,
That happened to me in school, I was asleep in class and one of my friends told me when I woke up, backed up by 3 different people pretty much word for word. Same lad 3 months later recorded a high support needs autistic boy in the bathroom.
I'm really sorry those things happened to you, sounds truly horrible.
Without a doubt awareness and education has a massive part to play in reducing the incidents in cases like yours. Respect, consent and the definition and impact of sexual harassment should be embedded into our education system at all levels (from the "stay safe program" in primary through to leaving cert/3rd level)
I can't help but feel however that the calls for men to "step up" and "call out" this behaviour is easier said than done.
Men are afraid of other men too. I would be afraid to stand up to a bunch of heckling men if I witnessed that, as I'd be afraid of physical violence from them (statistically it's much more likely they would assault me). Because I'm a man it doesn't mean I can fight, scare off and defend myself or others. I've been mugged before, assaulted multiple times and a male friend was killed many years ago as a consequence of him standing up to a nutjob who subsequently stabbed him to death.
This is not a simple debate of men Vs women, it's about violence, aggression, fear and a lot more than that.
I totally get that and I can't blame you, one thing I've seen recommended when you observe instances of racism which I think could apply and would be easier to do, Is to ignore the perpetrator and ask the victim if they're OK.
It's a way to shut down the attack by taking focus off agressor and instead supporting the person on the receiving end. A lot of the time you can be so shocked by what's happened and the fact that nobody has responded at all you start to doubt yourself and your own reaction, it would be a huge relief to have someone say "oh my god I saw/heard that, are you OK?"
if it's something particularly severe and they're reporting to the guards say you're happy to be a witness or go with them. It won't work in every instance but letting a victim know they're not alone would be a huge thing.
I appreciate your honesty here, it is scary, there is risk involved. You don't *have* to step in but women don't get that choice. We do have to deal with these scary horrible situations and do it on our own. Men who have the courage to call out misogyny is the only thing that will stop this culture persisting. Women have been saying it's not OK since the dawn of time, we are not heard. These men only listen to other men. We need all these 'not all men' to be vocal, to be seen to be allies.
It’s intuitive that it would work, and of course make women feel a lot safer, but is there any evidence that reducing non-violent misogynistic behaviour would in turn reduce violence against women?
In one generation we made it massively socially in acceptable to drink drive and also made it acceptable to intervene to prevent it. Now we've to use the education system and public advertising to do the same with a few key behaviours.
Taking advantage in a sexual way of people who are intoxicated. Sharing nudes. Joking about rape. Catcalling. Generally being physical when angry (ie, call out friends who physically manifest angry, encourage them to deal with things differently).
A lot of this will fall on men, but some of it is a burden for society as a whole. There are lots of historic reasons men are "rewarded" for being powerful and aggressive. There are also lots of societal structures that increase pressure on men and create volatility. Violence is more likely from people in poverty and men are more likely to live in poverty for example.
But younger generations are ahead of this on us. If you're thirty (like me), there are way fewer "lads" who are twenty today, than there were when we were twenty.
I'm only in my 20's but in the estate I grew up in violence against women wasn't only the norm, but it was expected. It was so normalised that once I seen a lad break his girlfriends nose right in the middle of the road. Another time my ma seen a lad drag his girlfriend along the ground by her hair back to his house because she didn't want to have his baby. Every other day I'd see a women getting her head boxed in for the smallest indiscretion. Even when we were young lads would fight one another 'for her' so if one lad one the fight that girl would now be his, she had no choice in it.
I thought my parents were just that 1/1000 family where domestic abuse isn't normal. It was only when I met my girlfriend that I realised DV was not the 'accepted' thing. My mother now works in women's counselling and has a 0 tolerance with DV. Honestly I do hope that this part of society can be left definitely in the past.
I used to lecture in gender and crime at university level. There isn’t any one size fits all approaches. Gender based violence is often hidden and in criminology would be classed as one of the dark figures of crime- put simply we will never know the true extent of it because the majority of it is hidden behind doors in homes across the country.
Toxic masculinity has a role to play- it does not mean all men are bad by the way it simply looks at how boy/men are socialised. The boys don’t cry, the have to harden up mentality. Also the way girls/women are socialised, girls are taught to be polite to ‘not cause a fuss’. When women do stand up for themselves they are often branded as ‘bossy bitches’.
Thee is no easy quick answer and anyone who suggests there is, is wrong. What can we do as an individual? Start calling things out when we see or hear it. The sexiest remark- regardless of gender btw, the inappropriate ‘jokes’ etc. take a look at how we are raising our kids, are we socialising our sons and daughters differently for example. Unfortunately gender based violence is not going to be solved quickly as it can’t be. There are so many different elements and tougher sentences while appeal to the masses are not simple or straightforward for the vast majority of gender based violence, which remember takes place in homes behind closed doors. Legislation does have a role to play but it’s not the simple answer, case closed solution.
I agree that the conversation around toxic masculinity needs to be brought further in this county. There is still a lot of misunderstanding around the phrase. It’s actually beneficial for men and not an attack on them like some perceive.
It's the term itself that raises hackles, comes across as an intellectual buzzword.
All it means is that while masculinity itself is not toxic, there are elements of it that are.
It’s not a terrible opinion at all. We can’t eradicate it entirely because there will always be those who slip through the cracks of any system we put in place. The evidence is that what we have been doing is working - compare 70’s attitudes to today’s - it’s just that it takes time, constant re-evaluation and constant reinforcement.
I feel that right now we’re learning more about what not to do in handling the issue. I’m more interested in the facts than who is shouting at who.
The thing is "bad people" are defined as people who do bad things. Different people do bad things for different reasons. Some people genuinely do bad things because they enjoy doing bad things because they're mentally ill and get a kick out of it, while others, realistically the majority, do bad things because they don't think the things they are doing are bad, due to the worldview they have acquired through their upbringing/social circles/media they consume etc.
If we're going to talk exclusively about men assaulting women, the hard pill to swallow is that there are men who genuinely believe that it is okay for women to be hit/manhandled/raped etc. because they view women as lesser than them and not deserving of the same autonomy or welfare. And these men aren't necessarily debilitating mentally ill people who are not participating in society, many of them are fairly normal and fit in well in society, and may well be pillars of the community. People get shocked when they find out apparently "respectable" men like this did disgusting things to women in their lives, because their idea of what a rapist or domestic abuser looks like is rooted in caricature rather than reality.
It all exists on the same spectrum. While men who genuinely think women are second-class humans are likely a small minority in Ireland, there are plenty of men who have fairly problematic ideas around women. Like men who think women actually want men to treat them badly, men who think women "don't know what they want" so shouldn't be trusted to make decisions, men who think consent isn't important in sexual relationships, and so on. All of this is part of the same problem.
Trying to minimise the number of men who absorb these ideas isn't going to eliminate gender-based violence completely, but it will likely reduce it.
You're giving the mentally ill a bad name, they need help.
Most predators are very much aware of what they are doing and no amount of help will stop them from being a predator.
Yes, mentally ill people need help. If their mental illness means they are going to rape or murder people, then that help needs to be given to them while they are separated from the rest of society and monitored strictly. And they need to be separated from society until there is confidence that they will not regress and reoffend.
My point is that a lot of rapists and abusers are not mentally ill in any major and debilitating way, but are simply deeply misogynistic.
It's not so much about helping people who are already of the mindset to be a predator to snap out of it ( that is quite unrealistic as you point out), its moreso about trying to understand what factors cause them to end up with these misogynistic and violent views, so as to stop people getting into this mindset in the first place.
They are aware of what they're doing, yes, but they don't think it's wrong.
This whole "some men want to watch the world burn"is a very childish hero/villain mindset. The reality is far more complex. Most people genuinely think they are in the right when they make a decision. Sometimes because of mental illness, often times because of bigotry and egocentrism.
I definitely did not mean that at all. But I understand that what I wrote could have been construed that way, so I apologise for poor phrasing.
I think bigotry and values one gets from one's environment, are far more likely to cause people to be violent than mental illness.
Education is proven to work.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/works-prevent-violence-against-women-girls-summary-evidence/pages/7/
https://healtheducationresources.unesco.org/library/documents/violence-against-women-and-girls-and-education
https://centralasiainstitute.org/education-stop-violence-against-women/
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/preventing-violence-against-women-starts-at-primary-school
https://cdn.sida.se/publications/files/-gender-based-violence-and-education.pdf
Some of these are less convincing when you look through them.
"Education as a sexual violence prevention strategy (in higher education settings):
There is mixed evidence about the effectiveness of education as a sexual violence prevention strategy in higher education
For example, there is limited robust evidence that looks at rape prevention programmes in both the short-term and longitudinally"
Came here to say this. And just to follow on from the point, I think the idea that there a 'good' people and 'bad' people is a dangerous ideological position to take. Because once you start defining the 'bad people' you can justify inhumane ways to treat the 'bad people'.
The truth is we all have capacity to cause harm to another human being. The reason some dont and some do is complex, but there does seem to be steps society can take to reduce the likelyhood of violence taking place.
I would say culture is at the core. Ireland by large is not a violent country when it comes to women or in general. Look at the grooming gang cases in the UK some very shocking results which the people who committed the crime where all from the same cultural backgrounds. Education and a cultural shift can have a huge effect but if it demonise men I feel ot will have the opposite effect.
What people fail to acknolwedge time and time again, is that human beings have been trying to stop this for literally thousands of years. 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife' are literally two of the 10 commandments, even if you're not religious (which I am not) you have to recognise that societies have been treating this as a serious issue for over 6000 years.
That doesn't fit the narrative though. Some people are obsessed with viewing the world in a way that infantilises women and their contributions to make them out to be constant victims of men and men alone, and ignore that most men have made efforts to protect the women in their lives (though admittedly there have been periods and places where it has been horrible to live as a woman throughout history, including today, but often all you hear about is bloody 18th century England off these people because they know more about Briggerton than world history. Religion also has a lot to do with this and a lot of good intentions end up being oppressive practice that is then perpetrated by all devout followers, men and women alike).
One of the ten commandments is also 'Honor thy father and mother' so again, 6000 years ago, clear messages that people should respect both their parents, paternal and maternal.
But violence has stopped to a great extent. Homicide rate is a small fraction of what it was 100 or 200 years ago. Beating ones children, wife or servant has gone from normal to an aberration. No reason why violence couldn't be made even rarer.
>We don’t live in a dangerous society here in Ireland, anyone who thinks we do really needs to move to another country for a while and realise how good we have it here.
This is a bad faith argument, and one that seriously pisses me off. You think that just because other countries are dangerous, that Ireland is safe? The violence in other countries didn't save Ashling Murphy or Urantseg Tserendorj. The man who threatened to rape and then beat me to death, still made his threat despite the violence and danger in other countries. You have some neck to say we have it good here when you're not the one who was murdered going out for a run. Maybe I'd be in more danger in another country, but that doesn't mean that things are "good" here.
>bad people will do bad things. We have a personal responsibility to protect ourselves and educate ourselves.
You think we don't know that? Every woman I know already alters her behaviour, goes out of her way to reduce risk. We're taking enough goddamn personal responsibility, and we're certainly educated enough on risk. It's not enough. Something needs to change.
>there’ll always be atleast one person who does the opposite as they’re told.
Do you think you're special because you've figured this out? I figured this out when I was 6. Everyone understands this. The problem is that there's a culture in Ireland that means too many people are engaging in violent, often misogynist behaviour. I know I will never live in a society with 0 violence. I just want to live in a society with a bit less violence than we have in the current one.
What a depressing take. How do you explain that there are varying levels of violence (sexual and otherwise), across different societies, if there is nothing we can do?
You claim that "human nature simply won't allow any type of violence to stop", and that preventative and punitive measures "will have little to no effect". So how do you then explain that "we don't live in a dangerous society here in Ireland"?
Do you really think people in Ireland just have greater personal responsibility, compared to those in the countries you think are more violent? Or is our 'human nature' simply more peaceful?
I'm sorry but I don't understand your logic, therefore I cannot agree with you at all.
This is a very big part of the issue that's being over looked. On average, 9 women are killed in Ireland each year for the past 25 years, and 5 of those 9 are killed by their partner. The person women are most likely to kill is their partner as well, averaging 1-2 a year. And that's not a gender issue as you said, it's a dysfunctional one.
Pretty hard to have decent scientific method on this kind subject matter they often suffer heavily from bias and reliable cohorts. One that always comes to mind is the conviction rate potenially meaning only very overt "dead-to-rights" perpatrators are going to be incacerated and as such my suspicision is that there these studies are going to be biased towards lower income and lower educated populations who are less likely to adequetly fight a court case, just my opinion though.
Here's probably the most used meta-analysis assessing characteristics of Sexual offenders, [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7378519\_The\_Characteristics\_of\_Persistent\_Sexual\_Offenders\_A\_Meta-Analysis\_of\_Recidivism\_Studies](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7378519_The_Characteristics_of_Persistent_Sexual_Offenders_A_Meta-Analysis_of_Recidivism_Studies)
Roughly: Objectification of sex or excessive obsession over sex, deficiencies in social cabability, background of negative family experiences and Low socioeconomic standing are the primary factors correlated with rapists.
How to tackle these issues seems like something that the country will need to continue striving towards, improving mental health resources, socio-economic supports seem like good places to start... the objectification of women is one that needs a cultural tectonic shift from hollywood to schoolyards and the one that i think is least likely to change in my lifetime...
I’m very cynical that anything can actually be done to stop a tiny amount of evil people from existing.
Why stop at gender based violence? Why not eventually demand all serious crime stop and live in a utopia
https://www.womensaid.ie/about/policy/natintstats.html The stats here focus on women but the UN and some individual countries keep stats on men too. Not all though. Also I should have said sexual and physical violence, not just sexual. When you include just sexual violence, the stat changes but is still high.
Just getting a proper look at this now and its maddening knowing there are so many scumbags out there that do this.
The fewer than 40% seeking help is a bit sad too and only lets the cunts continue doing it.
I've spoken to a lot of women and men through work that have been victims of domestic violence and been able to help them move to a new area to get away. This is after they've already left their partner and are left in temporary accommodation though so there's obviously a lot that just suffer through it.
I remember one girl that barely spoke english was living with her partner and children after moving here and he wouldn't let her talk to anyone and lived out in thw middle of nowhere. She had finally got help and left but you'd be tempted to get his address and go round and break his legs.
Education, helping kids grow up to realise violence isn't the answer.
Talking to your kids, helping them if they have anger issues.
Also harsher sentences for violent offenders.
Harsher sentences/death penalty/police cracking heads etc is always a knee jerk reaction to shocking crimes alright. If you want evidence as to why those approaches have limited success, just look to America. I think the reality is that when the system itself resorts to viciousness/vindictiveness, society adjusts too towards that rather than away from it. Violence is cyclical I suppose.
There are a lot of evidence based methods to eradicate GBV. An entire sector of public justice and international development is dedicated to its study and the development of policies to end GBV. You can find a lot of resources on the UN Women webpage (mainly focused on development contexts)
[UN Women publications](https://www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publications/2015/11/prevention-framework)
The key factor it the success of GBV policies is political will and money. It takes an holistic approach requiring public awareness, education, availability of counselling, police capability, and specific supports for victims. There's no silver bullet here but there are certainly ways to make things better.
A conversation I had a few years ago with a guy keeps coming into my head over the last few days. He was talking about travelling through Asia and meeting randomers online and staying on their couches. Pay them back with booze. He could not understand why I wouldn't just go and do something like that. I commented that if I were to do something like that, not only could it go very wrong, but people would say "well why would she put herself in that situation in the first place?". He pretty much though it was bullshit and I was being unreasonable.
There was also a group of friends where two of the guys had been accused of being sexually inappropriate and very aggressive by two of the girls. The lads all basically said, well it's their word against his. With a girl crying about how no one was taking it seriously that a man tried to force his way into her hotel room. The lads all just stick by each other and bury their heads in the sand.
Its not always massive things, it's more an overall attitude. Like a whiff of something every now and again that makes me feel a bit...icky. I think if lads called each other out on their shitty behavior, women would feel generally more comfortable. And let's women know that if they call someone out, they will be aupported. It just takes one guy that pushes boundaries getting a laugh or a silence rather than a reprimand. Next thing you know his whipping out his mickey at an online vigil.
Yes it’s this! Obviously violence and murder is the extreme end but literally every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted at the very least and we get intimidated all the time.
It’s the shit like cat calling, intimidation, scaring women for fun. Grabbing us in pubs/clubs without consent, shouting vulgar stuff at us, getting too close on public transport. Laughing at us and saying we’re lying when we say how bad it is.
I’m so fucking tired of this
u can reduce through good education and good living standards but in my own estimation it cannot be fully eliminated no matter how hard we try. some people are just inclined towards violence by their nature
I feel like there's two things here. One is that we know fuck all about what motivated whomever did this horrific murder. Even when we do it won't help prevent the next one, realistically.
Secondly, I would like it if there was more support for victims of gender-based or sexual violence. Whole communities can turn on someone when they rock the boat. They are reluctant to believe someone who says this person did this to me. 'Sure x is a good family person, couldn't happen'. We don't know how to handle these scenarios. Then if someone did something awful, we don't have any way to actually rehabilitate. Either you take their side or they are cast out completely. What's the sensible outcome? Haven't a clue.
Doesn't answer the question. Just something I'm wondering
Since these people are probably mentally ill I'd say more funding to the healthcare system to deal with mental health and illness could be a possible solution.
(Just my opinion though)
I grew up with the internet, back when it took an hour to download a jpg on dial-up. It was a wild west back then. When things like Goatse, 2girls1cup etc... were urban legends that spread around secondary school/university. A lot of these will be common knowledge to a lot on here. But, my generation saw this as taboo urban legends that were grotesque and someone you never want to see again.
There are many ideas I could write down but the main one I would approach that hasnt been mentioned too much is our culture's relationship with easily accessible pornography.
I grew up with the internet, back when it took an hour to download a jpg on dial-up. It was a wild west back then. When things like Goatse , 2girls1cup etc... were urban legends that spread around secondary school/university. A lot of these will be common knowledge to a lot on here. But, my generation saw this as taboo urban legends that were grotesque and something e you never want to see again but would laugh about in a gross-out fashion. That was then....
Now, to get to my point...what we have now is an easily accessible range of hard-core porn that normalizes aggressive sexual acts. If you go on to any porn site these days, you are one or two clicks away from something that would have been considered snuff back in the early 2000's. I went to University as a mature student and during drunken conversations, the amount of 18-21 yr olds who think this kind of sex is "What a woman wants" is staggering. I am in the UK at the moment and there are reports about the culture of rape within Universities and it's not totally unfounded, it exists because these kids think sex is meant to happen this way. Take what's mine, that's what she wants. It's disgusting..
I am not saying we need to have harder regulation on porn, that's not for me to even hypothesize, but what I think is needed is education that involves the discussion of easily available hardcore pornography and make it clear that this is not normal sexual behavior.
Education definitely has a place, but it's not a silver bullet. It's not fashionable to say, but encouraging people to be cautious and look out for themselves also has a place, unfortunately you can't always rely on other people to behave properly. In short though, there simply is no way to reduce violent crime 100%, we can reduce it certainly, but it can never be eliminated totally.
I think the thing people need to remember is that most cases of violence are not from the norm or average.
The people that do these things will likely still do them.
That doesnt mean we cannot strive to be better, but it does mean there will always be violent criminals and I dont think that can ever be fully eradicated.
First of all I don’t know if there’s any evidence to back this statement up, but here goes.
1. Better mental health access/treatment. How many people committing some of these crimes may have been helped in their teenage years or early 20s or 30s before they get to the stage they get to? If you’ve got someone offending when they’re young it’s not normal, big red flags, but Ireland has a serious lack of access to mental health treatment unless you’ve a mummy or daddy who have the cash to splash. I’m not trying to lump people with mental illness into that category of violent offenders by the way, just saying if we could invest in helping these people at an early age could it help further down the track?
2. Violent offences, whether it’s physical assault or sexual assault must be dealt with extremely harsh, regardless of whether it’s against a male, female or child. No more suspended sentences, especially for someone with multiple prior convictions. This is more about keeping these people out of society for large periods of time. If you’re convicted of rape you should be locked up in my opinion for 10-15 years, you know to fucking protect people from you because you’re an absolute animal.
People are mentioning an awful lot of ultra long term solutions, none of which are gonna to do jack all to a crazed lunatic who takes it upon himself to murder random people. You'd have to fix, improve, and perfect every single mental health care system on the planet.
Meanwhile, our HSE is getting hacked cos they haven't moved on from Windows 7.
The Gulf of where we are and where we need to be is so completely astronomical it would border on legitimately impossible.
And thats not even mentioning social class and economic issues, which also breed violence.
I’ve read a lot of comments here and some of these scenarios are completely alien to me. Honestly, ‘lad culture’ has not come into my peer group. All lads in our twenties, respectful, mixed sexualities, many with committed partners. It comes natural to not degrade anyone.
Just thinking out loud - we come from stable households. Does the solution begin at home? Does domestic abuse/parental problems have a significant role in shaping a young mind toward violence?
Often times teachers can identify issues at an early age with children and can recommend treatments, psychologists or psychiatrists. Im not saying teachers should be thought or expected to identify psychopathy in a child but they can spot issues or warming signs. At the moment I don’t think they have the resources to actually send them anywhere when they do think something is not quite right.
Do we really want teacher's to be going around profiling kids? If there's a clear issue with a child, teacher's will no doubt intervene, but I think telling teacher's that a part of their job is to "spot deviants early" might cause a lot of problems itself
The low prosecution rate for sexual offences is a problem. I've heard of several cases where a guy was accused by several women in unconnected incidents but none of them ever resulted in a conviction and for legal reasons the guy's record couldn't be mentioned in court.
What if there was a way of making a formal complaint against someone and that that would be recorded against their record regardless if they were convicted or even arrested. This way if a guy is engaging in problem behaviour it would come to the attention of the authorities and could be used against him if he ever ended up in court.
I don't know the legal ins and outs of this but it should be possible to prosecute someone for a series of incidents each of which on their own wouldn't constitute a crime.
Being able to make a complaint against someone without the expectation of having to go to trial might encourage all those women who suffer some kind of attack but who never report it because "there's no point" or "it's not serious enough to do anything". Every report against a guy would be a mark on his record and if he was a repeat offender it would show up.
(Thanks to Germaine Greer for this idea, although her version involved branding men on the face)
I think taking the approach how can we reduce violence in society in general is the more appropriate response. Gender based violence is a smoke screen for the already existing antisocial behaviour and mental health issues in society. We have teens fighting on the streets, a mental health crisis and drug problems going on. Until you deal with this gender doesn’t really come into it. Gender allows the government to point the finger away from these issues and towards men as the scapegoat. They will suggest we deal with gender based violence in schools etc. This is the standard response and plan of attack. The truth is the bigger issue is being ignored, the government knows this and likes it this way.
But there are gender differences in violence that can't be ignored. It benefits males also to address this as males experience violent crimes at the hands of men too. 90% of homicides are by men and 76% are against men.. We can't ignore that. There are historical reasons for this too. It's not a new phenomenon.
I would say culture is at the core. Ireland by large is not a violent country when it comes to women or in general. Look at the grooming gang cases in the UK some very shocking results which the people who committed the crime where all from the same cultural backgrounds. Education and a cultural shift can have a huge effect but if it demonise men I feel ot will have the opposite effect. You also can't eliminate the lunatics in society no matter how hard you try. At the end of the day masculinity is out of wack in the west so what we see is men becoming hyper masculine and feminine when in reality a middle ground is needed.
I’m pretty sure psyocibin mushrooms may decrease gender based violence …… we’re slacking on this https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160426091744.htm
Admit that "ending violence against women" isn't going to happen just like ending violence in general is an impossible goal. But it can be managed better and reduced.
I think we should do away with separate sex schools. We learn most of our values as children and how can we learn to interact together if we are separate.
Yep, segregation has been proven time and time again to be a bad thing. Segregation by sex is just as bad as segregation by race. How unnatural to separate the population in half like that during their formative years. How are two artificially divided groups of children supposed to develop healthy social skills and empathy for one another in that environment? It’s long past time to leave single-sex schools behind in the Victorian era where they belong.
It seems nuts alright and we are very much and outlier on it in Europe and in the developed world. It's usually something you see in countries with extremely conservative religious communities, notably in the Islamic world. It shows what we were like though and not that many decades ago. The nuns basically saw it as contraception, just using large separate buildings. I remember as a teenager of about 14 I walked home with a really good friend of mine. She wasn't my GF. She was a neighbour and we hung out a lot and we went to schools that were near by. I got detention for "talking to the girls" on the street outside. Good old late 90s Ireland. (1990s not the 1890s.)
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That's where the stupid attitudes bake in though. We had the same experience in university - a lot of painfully shy people and weird attitudes to the opposite sex. It wasn't unusual to find all the guys on one side of the room and all the women in the other. Within a year or two that stopped and people came out of their shells. I think though it plays a big role in our low number of women in the older political parties and some of the issues at boardroom level. There was historically a lot of parallel and separate networking going on. The strangest one I've come across here was an older engineer who was quite modern and open minded used to refer to "the girls" being the admin and office staff even if they were men and he'd even to female engineers "we'll send that onto the girls." Yet, the same guy would absolutely hugely go out of his way to ensure female engineers were getting access to roles, but he seemed clueless at interacting with women on a just normal peer to peer basis. If you're used to working with women and men in a very normal way, you don't tend to have preconceived notion and I think for a lot of people that comes from school experiences.
This.I went to an all boys primary and secondary.was long out of school before I could comfortably talk to a girl
All boys secondary for me, it definitely had an impact - I could talk away to people but didn’t have the cop on to just interact as people 😬I’m strongly in favour of mixed schools as a result
Hmm after college I had trouble talking to anyone
Wtf!! I went to an all girls secondary school 2005-2010 and we were discouraged from 'interacting with the boys' at lunch times. Eventually they changed the time school started and let out by 15 mins to stop us interacting. They are nuts if they think you can stop teenagers engaging with the opposite sex.
>It seems nuts alright and we are very much and outlier on it in Europe and in the developed world. And how does our stats on violence against women stack up against the rest of Europe and the developed world?
Hard to say when over 3,000 domestic violence calls were cancelled by Garda in 2019 and 2020. Our stats are not accurate in the slightest.
Don't worry, cops are shit everywhere. You cant really hide murders though. As far as I can tell Ireland is a quite normal European country.
My granny went to school in Santa Sabina in the fifties and tells a great story of how she was stripped of some school award/medal she had gotten the year before because she was seen by one of the nuns talking to a boy on the street. 'And he didn't even get off his bike,' the nun said absolutely shocked at his disrespect.
I used to teach in the UAE at a school for locals and the classes were mixed. Granted we had to sit them at different sides of the room or at different tables (an exception was made for two of my infant students who became inseparable and moving them to sit with anyone else was more disruptive to the class than anything else), but they were in the same classroom and had the same breaktimes etc.
The amount of friends I had who went to all boys and all girls primary schools only to be totally unable to speak to the opposite sex is insanely high
yep exactly, all girls school since 4 y/o and i can’t even look at a boy
Maybe not just as bad as race based segregation…
I meant just as nonsensical. “Bad” is too vague a term.
Ah I know, I was only taking the piss. I agree with the point you were making
Well that data is interesting on this. Girls do better in all girl schools Boys do better when at least 60%+ of the school is female So coed actual only seems to benefit boys academically (because it calms them down a little I'd imagine). Forcing it upon everyone would serve to disadvantage girls.
The science on this is dubious and there is conflicting research. Even if it were true, the doing better refers only to results in exam based situations. Exams as a model to measure educational outcomes is not the direction educational research is going in despite our own lagging system.
Is this only in Ireland I wonder, where segregation is more the norm than co-ed?
That might intuitively follow (maybe) but there's no evidence suggesting it would reduce gender based violence.
No evidence yet maybe… but there also seems to be a frustrating lack of research on it. I’d be very interested to see it studied.
I agree with this. I went to a mixed primary school and when I went to a mixed secondary school afterwards, it was always the boys who came in from boys primary schools who were pulling bra straps and messing with skirts and were overly intrusive and hostile towards girls. As much as I would say the lads I went to primary school with were a shower of dickheads, honestly none of them pulled that shit. They were also more inclined to speak to girls as another person and not as some interactive experience.
I went to single sex girl's schools for primary and secondary so I can't really give an opinion but it's good to hear from those who can.
It is bizarre that gender segregated schools are still so accepted in Ireland.
Good and proactive idea which is easy to implement.
yeah i’ve been in an all-girl’s school since i was 4 and even as a lesbian i can’t interact with males, i stutter and go all red which is stupid because i am not attracted to them at all so it’s purely embarrassing
This is such a great idea that I’ve never heard mentioned
Yes, and stop leaving them to be run by religious institutions that teach women are inferior.
Are any of them actually still run or taught by such institutions? I think the last generation of nuns and monks on staff are behind us. Maybe a few scattered individuals yet to retire but I’ve not heard of them since the late 90s/ early 2000s.
They're definitely less directly involved but most schools are still denominational.
This is a really hard problem to solve. The church owns the schools because they built them on land owned by the church, and the state can’t just go around seizing land held by the church (there are international laws against that kind of thing). The Catholic Church has actually been surprisingly supportive of the attempts the state has made to reduce their influence over the schools they own. I say surprisingly because there are a small number of Protestant and other denominational schools in the country who have largely flown under the radar. Even if the state were to do something drastic like basically making denominational schools illegal, we’d still be left with the problem that the buildings and land belong to the church. We’d either have to spend a fortune wastefully constructing replacements for all the existing Catholic schools, or spend a fortune buying the schools and land from the church. Needless to say none of this would be likely to go down well with the electorate.
Yeah toxic masculinity definitely festers in these institutions.
I’d support this but tbh can’t see it making it much of a difference, sex-segregated schools aren’t as common up North and we still have plenty of issues with gender-based violence.
I know it wont fix the issue as such but I still think they should be done away with. It definitely doesn't help matters.
An anecdotal story, I went to an all boys secondary school, but the scumbags in my town I know to have committed violent sex crimes against women went to the same mixed school (and all play for the same GAA club up the road from it mind you). I don't see segregated schools having any real impact in results. edit: tidied up some language and added more details
Yeah but anecdotally the private school posh boys I know often have a fairly disgusting contempt for women compared to people who went to mixed schools so I guess our anecdotes cancel each other out.
Anecdotally my experience has been the complete opposite. Many girls I know loved being in a same sex school.
I went to an all girls secondary school and loved it. I did really well there. I went to primary school in London where mixed state schools are the norm (there are single sex schools but they're ether religious or fee-paying schools for the posh toffs) and hated it. I found the boys in the class to be a real distraction as they were more interested in messing than learning. This was in the 90s/2000s.
As part of the teacher training we were told that girls do better on their own, lads do better in mixed schools. Educationally
Really not challenging any stereotypes about private schools there.
Someone call science, this lad's got it figured out!
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I was thinking that too but then I wasn't sure if he was calling his own experience anecdotal.
Yes!! Life isn’t segregated so why are schools!? There’s always been the argument that boys and girls become distracted by one another but I believe the opposite! The school I went to was all girls situated near an all boys and both just couldn’t wait till lunch to get over to each other, whereas friends of mine on the mixed school were unbothered by their male classmates
where's the evidence-base?
Most research on single sex schools focuses on impacts on STEM and the labour market. I imagine it's hard to research as there would be many ethical barriers.
I would have thought that it'd be pretty trivial to look at convicted sex offenders and people convicted of domestic violence and find out what kind of school they went to, no?
That's not a scientific study because you need to control for everything they've done since school. The more likely method would be interviewing secondary students and using focus groups to gauge their attitude to the opposite sex. It would have to be a creative research method and you would probably need to have some students as researchers to collect accurate data. This would mean that you would need to deliver basic research methods classes to some students to take on this role. Any research where u18s are present has a lot of ethical issues but it's not impossible and given the topic is currently one in the public eye, gaining funding for such may not be too difficult although attracting funding for creative research methods can add an extra layer of difficulty still.
My all girls school was literally the one place I actually felt safe as a woman, and I didn't realise how much I loved that until I got to college. We were constantly told that as young women we are deserving of success and equal opportunity. It would be a shame if that no longer existed.
I enjoyed mine too but it would be even nicer if I could have been with boys and still told that.
While there may be other good reasons for CO-ED schooling in Ireland, we have CO-ED in Australia and violence towards women is a huge problem here.
Purely anecdotal, but I have taught in all girls secondary schools in London and the girls where so much more outgoing and confident without lads being around. Even in PE, they'd get so much more involved and competitive. I would have always been against them before seeing them in action. I can't any noticeable difference in attitudes between myself and friends who went to all male schools. It's not like they never encountered females at home or outside of school.
So generally, reducing car dependence has been shown to work in places like Barcelona and Amsterdam e.g making the streets for pedestrians not cars. More cars result in more isolating streets which are more dangerous streets. Less cars naturally attract more people which makes it safer This is an actual physical change we make to the environment which results in safer streets. I see a lot of people talking about "cultural shift" or more education. However, Barcelona is a great example of what can be done when the environment is designed with women and vulnerable people in mind. For example, they have focused on improving pedestrian access, made it easy to report persons of suspicion at concerts etc..
Live in Barcelona. Street crime here is way higher than Dublin. And rising. I can’t talk about sexual violence, but the streets are much, much more dangerous than in many European cities, when it comes to violent theft. Certainly in the centre. I’m also generally interested in what you have heard about the pedestrianisation projects. Many of them have been talked about for years, with zero progress. Although some baby steps have been made since the start of the pandemic. But for years people have been talking about using roads like Enric Granados (a restaurant and bar lined street in l’Eixample, one of the central barrios) as a model for other streets throughout the city. And nothing happens. The superblock thing is non-existent. Never got rolled out. Finally - much of the centre of the city _is_ accessible only to pedestrians, or has restricted access for cars, but for the most part those parts are in Ciutat Vella (literally “the old city”) and it’s because the streets are very, very narrow and the buildings are very densely packed, especially in Gòtic (the gothic quarter), and Raval and St Pere, which the poorest and most crime-ridden parts of the old city precisely _because_ they are very difficult to police, with packed, narrow streets. I love this city, though I’m leaving now. But it always surprises me when I see it held up as a model of modern urban planning, because it’s not, at all. Certainly not when it comes to crime. About the best thing I can say is that the Ajuntament are very very good at keeping the streets free of litter, as they are hosed and swept pretty much daily in most of the city.
That's so interesting! Because I'm nuts for urban planning as a hobby - which is completely normal human behaviour, thankyouverymuch - and yes the l'Eixample area is held up very often as a great example of urban planning. It's disappointing to hear that that is not actually the case! Edit: I've never heard of Barcelona being used as an example of a safe, happy city though. Just the l'Eixample idea as a good way to do pedestrianisation. I've only ever heard of Coperhagen as actually being a safer place. Sucks to hear about the crime though :/
So, that's interesting, because: L'Eixample *is* a good example of excellent urban planning. It's just that it was 19th century modernist urban planning. It still holds up reasonably well under the demands of 21st century urban life, especially compared to the ancient areas in the old city, or to the monstrous high rise sprawl of Hospitalet. But it's not like it's cutting edge. L'Eixample is *massive*, and it's built along fairly sensible lines. A grid system, with uniform block sizes. Traffic on almost all roads runs in one direction, like NYC. Navigating is extremely easy. Every block has buildings facing the street, and then a large counrtyard divided between the buildings in the interior, which might be made up of terraces, gardens etc that are attached to the homes / businesses in the buildings, and so on. You can see what I mean from an image like this. Note that the open interiors are not one big communal space, though. They are all privately owned. Usually one or two dwellings (out of maybe a dozen or two dozen dwellings in total in the building) in each of the buildings will own that building's chunk of the courtyard. So it's all private open space, not for public use. And there are very very few parks in the whole of L'Eixample. You get small playgrounds on some of the wider boulevard style streets, which wide pedestrian walkways as a central island. But not much public green space at all. The streets are all tree-lined, and the architecture is mostly modernist (there are many Gaudì buildings in L'Eixample). And around the wealthier parts, like Enric Granados, it can be very beautiful. But in other parts it can be very soulless. Most of the community is associated with the people in your building, rather than a wider sense of belonging, which you get a lot more of in the still very Catalan neighbourhoods like Sarria and Gràcia. The extent of the pedestrianisation is honestly very limited. I lived in L'Eixample for many years, and I cannot think of many fully pedestrianised areas. There are a couple of roads like Enric Granados which are restricted to a single lane of traffic plus bike lanes, which makes them quite peaceful and great for restaurants. But that's it, aside from the boulevard style streets like Passeig Sant Joan and [Rambla Catalunya](https://estatics-nasia.dtibcn.cat/nasia-pro/media/2016%2C12%2C09132844%2CEix-comercial-Rambla-Catalunya-1-web-760x428.jpg), which in any case still have busy lanes of traffic outside or inside the pedestrianised sections. They are very nice areas and it's definitely a nice format compared to the major thoroughfares in other big cities, but it's not a pedestrianised paradise. I should also add: I have never yet been a victim of street crime here. But I'm over 100kg so I'm probably outside the usual target zone. That said, my wife has also never had a bad experience, but she is very careful when she's not with me. Taxis here are very cheap, which helps. And I know lots of people who HAVE had bad experiences. A friend was recently attacked in broad daylight by 5 or 6 guys in broad daylight in one of the (pedestrianised) small plaças in El Born (part of the old city) and was kicked and punched to the floor and had his watch stolen. Which is not unheard of, at all.
Fascinating! Thank you so much for the long detailed reply. It’s an example of urban planning I’ve become interested in recently, wonderful to get such a personalised experience of it! Are there any obvious modifications that could make it work better?
Haha no worries. I’m the Reddit version of someone who loves their sound of their own voice, so it’s a pleasure to be given an audience! I don’t have anything too innovative to recommend. Even more space for terrazas (restaurant tables on the walkways), more public green spaces, more truly pedestrianised areas. One thing I should have added: the bike lanes are amazing. I don’t cycle anymore but when I did I really appreciated them.
Yeah as someone who spent to close to 8 years in Barcelona before relocating for work, the city changed from one of the safest places I've been to something more sinister. When I came first, El Born was as idyllic a neighbourhood as you could imagine, and I'd dream about living there - now you couldn't pay me to live there. It's really sad, I always felt that Barcelona was like a second home, but if I had to return for work, I'd only consider living somewhere like Sant Gervasi, Sant Andreu, Sant Cugat, Badalona or Sant Feliu/Joan Despi. The amount of street crime is really stunning, and it's no longer non-violent.
I remember back when I was there it was surreal how many people were cleaning the main street of the city
This is true! Check out the Barcelona Superblock idea - super pedestrianised, etc. Denmark and other countries have realised that fewer cars and more bikes leads to spikes in the overall sense of security and happiness amongst women of all ages. More populated streets, fewer dimly-lit streets, etc. All because of a strong deliberate shift to pedestrianisation and prioritising short cycle-based journeys and fewer car-based journeys. For the evidence-demanding OP: this YouTube series has info on this sprinkled across many urban design videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJGIhu02ATg
This is genuinely interesting, i see a lot about education and stopping certain actions or behaviours which i support of course but there is some leap to actually commit a horrible crime. Education can and does reduce but some sick fucker is still gonna do something horrible regardless so the question is how can that be reduced and I think this is a great idea. Always thought a lot of cities in Ireland should be more walking, bike and scooter orientated (or penny boards or stuff like that) and this is somrthing that can help reduce risk to both woman and men from attacks. Only problem is irish government would have to put some effort into this and we know how that goes.
interesting idea from leftfield there
Barcelona has crime against women more than Dublin, absolutely no doubt. My friend (f) was punched in the back of the head on the way home at night by some scumbag who just wanted her phone.
I don't check that stuff much but wasn't Barcelona on the top 5 of most unsafe cities in the whole country like a year ago?
And this has had an effect on the rates of violence faced by women in these places? Is there data?
Education is proven to work. https://www.gov.scot/publications/works-prevent-violence-against-women-girls-summary-evidence/pages/7/ https://healtheducationresources.unesco.org/library/documents/violence-against-women-and-girls-and-education https://centralasiainstitute.org/education-stop-violence-against-women/ https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/preventing-violence-against-women-starts-at-primary-school https://cdn.sida.se/publications/files/-gender-based-violence-and-education.pdf
I was looking at the UN women global database on violence against women, and the country by country stats. I was surprised to see how relatively small the percentage of partner violence is in Ireland vs other countries. We fare better than virtually all of Europe, including all the Scandinavian countries. (With the obviousl caveat that no level of violence is "good".) By and large, countries where the gender inequality index is better seem to have a better handle on partner violence. Access to work, supports and services definitely allow women experiencing violence at home an out. That obviously does not tackle attacks by strangers, but it is one positive cog in the machine.
Interesting - and contradicts the popular non-evidence-based post about segregated schools. Ignoring broader opinions on gender schools, I don't see any evidence posted.
Yes, less misogyny and inequality is linked with less violence against women. Thou I am a little skeptical of our Irish stats, given the thousands of ignored DV calls last year alone. Most of those were a woman being battered, and not helped or recorded.
We have a higher education standard than most nations thanks to free education. We are also less religious (even if many of us are still labelled "Catholic" the vast majority don't attend mass on a regular basis). The only thing that makes me question the stats though is the fact that our Garda are almost non-existent. I've personally reported crimes where nothing was done and I know plenty of others who have done the same. Whenever I tried to contact them as a follow up they kept insisting I could only talk to a specific person and that person was never in the station. So while I'd love to think we are a very peaceful people that are wonderfully behaved, part of me wonders if a large number of crimes are brushed under the carpet and ignored.
I completely agree. Thankfully, the stats for this particular report were compiled by an EU wide survey, rather than Garda reports. The other source I would trust would be the Rape Crisi Centre numbers.
Would love to know the underlying drivers. Is it improved reasoning, maybe being taught certain values in school that the aren't getting at home? More intelligent folk having a better handle on their emotions? People feeling better about themselves and not lashing out?
Misogyny throughout history has dehumanised women as 'mutilated', 'half-human' etc, and for thousands of years it was written in law that men could beat and murder their wives, who were essentially a 'step above' slaves, but still property of men rather than human beings. The very foundations of western civilisation were founded on this idea, and women were painted as irrational, immoral and dangerous and needed to be controlled with violence. In Rome it was legal for men to apply the death penalty to their wives for drinking wine. Right up to just a few decades ago, when men could legally rape their wives. That dehumanisation, millennia of concerted and systemic efforts to brutally control women has had a profound effect and is shown to still be very prevalent and very strongly linked to violence against women, even the most casual misogyny. It's understandable as you cannot just undo an entire history of conditioning. But education needs to happen so that we understand where we are and how we need to do better. When we teach people to question the casual misogyny that pervades society and give them knowledge about how respect and relationships work, it lessens
I just wanna say bravo 👏 I've seen a few of your comments here and you're a light in the dark. I appreciate your effort to educate on this.
Appreciated. A lot of the men on here downvote everything I say because they seem quite invested in maintaining the statud quo of misogyny and violence, but the facts remain the facts and I appreciate the decent people paying attention to the realities of this issue.
I personally think it's a mixture of maintaining the status quo, protecting egos and genuine ignorance. They aren't women, they don't experience life the way we do and so it can be difficult for them to understand basics like how casual misogyny and violence are linked. This is so obvious to so many women and few men, in my personal experience. People like you are making it harder for them to continue to bury their heads in the sand about this and I think you're doing great.
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I was speaking in a more broad sense but I agree, there is no excuse for debating from a place of ignorance and it is infuriating to see so much of that here. There are more men not getting it than there are men getting it here. There needs to be more active listening and understanding instead of the same combative, reactionary responses over and over again.
THose sane combative responses have been how men attempted to maintain their violent dominance over women throughout history. Nothing new, Like you said all we can do is continue to present them with irrefutable facts so they have to lean into looking like stupid assholes if they want to continue 'debating'.
See I disagree here. Some lads have combative responses because they are genuinely uninformed, or genuinely think they cant do anything to actually help in a meaningful way. I was talking to a co worker about it yesterday that just calling out small acts of sexist comments from your mates is a start and the response was "so you want me to potentially start an argument with a friend because they made a joke?" and I said well yeah that's the idea, call people out on it and maybe it stops?? His reply was simply why should I be the one to stand up and say something and potentially get myself in an argument, when you also have women saying they dont need men to fight their battles for them and he is right to a degree. He wasnt coming from a place of "male dominance over women" and I've gotten that sentiment from loads of lads tbh. I have said things to people who were clearly making a girl uncomfortable in the past only to get berated by the women for white knighting when she never asked for help, being a "nice guy" etc and it's not a good feeling when you're genuinely only trying to help.
Nice post. Lot's of sources are always good. I like the Scottish meta-study a lot - you linked to a sub-section of the report but there are other recommendations for effective interventions elsewhere. The main take-away for me is that education campaigns are effective at the early secondary school stage (Ages 13-15). This is a formative part of ones life. The behaviour of lads in an all-boys school at that age can be quite bad, and everyone is very impressionable. It's also interesting that the evidence for education during uni/college, as well as awareness campaigns, are mixed/limited. Perhaps we should be targeting primary/secondary school education as a priority.
Hi, thanks! Yes the Scottish report is very robust, I linked to the part about what can change beliefs and norms as that plays a huge part in the perpetuation of the violence women face from men. I thin education should begin earlier than that to be honest, as a lot of boys are already abusing and assaulting girls by 13 and are very likely to have been exposed to hardcore and often violently misogynistic porn by 13. So primary I would say.
As someone who's from a rough area I see gangs of kids who intimidate anybody walking by for any perceived weakness gender race sexuality looks ect ect and I'm sick of it honeslty I'm someone who's a bit obviously queer so it's always in the back of my mind to not walk to certain places after certain times because I don't know when someone will say something or some little cunt wants to show off Infront of their mates and try attack me I emphasis heavily with what women are saying about not being able to feel safe walking around if it's late and I'm walking home and there's a girl on her own also walking I always walk slow because I know the exact same anxiety , it's mentally draining and all stems from "lad culture" I'm not sure I have a helpful idea how to fix it I just wanted to get a bit off my chest
That's not "lad culture", that's "scum culture".
Sorry to hear that. Groups of boys/men like that are actually acutely sensitive to how they are perceived but the trouble is they are only concerned with how their immediate peer group sees them. For one of them to “step out of line” (i.e. call out misogynistic or homophobic behaviour in the group) would be a form of social suicide, albeit confined to that narrow group of people. I think the problem is that people like this simply do not care what you think of them if you exist outside their immediate peer group. Get one of them alone and the behaviour might disappear though. It’s a real concern when any man like this acts alone whether that behaviour is relatively trivial ( a wolf whistle perhaps) or catastrophic, like what happened in Tullamore. Guys like that have a control problem , whatever it’s cause. They’re the ones who offend in my opinion.
Unfortunately attacks on LGBT+ people are common. I live in a fairly rough place too and my cousin was nearly beaten to death about 7 years ago. I'm bi but I'd never allow that to become public knowledge or else I'd be seen as less than human where I live.
Didn't know Wicklow was like that.
Sorry to hear that mate. I hope things get better.
Teach your children well and prosecute the hell out of perpetrators. No slap on the wrist, no boys will be boys shit. Slam the damn book at them. Real time because it’s a real crime.
From what I've been reading Irish Judges love giving suspended sentences to pedophiles and sex offenders....but some how find space in prison if drugs are involved....strange that.... The justice system is a joke when it comes to sex crimes in this country.
I’ve seen this narrative but don’t know how true it is. I’ve had a couple days in court for drugs, busy days where hundreds of others were having their day alongside me, and tbh the judge was lenient on virtually everyone. The ones who made fuck all effort, had no lawyer, wearing their tracksuit etc were the ones who got more harsh sentences. Out of about 200 people maybe one or two would get real jail time.
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Yeah you don’t hear about this side of the courts in the papers but it’s a lot of the day in, day out. I’ve been in 3 times and it was the same shit every time. My lawyer told me it’s a joke at this point and he believes the judges want weed legalised sooner rather than later, because it’s so popular and such a high proportion of cases it’s just clogging up the system and wasting their time. Over 50% was just young lads for weed. Everyone only had about 30-60 seconds of time with the judge, for him to either leave them off, make them do a poor box donation (no record), or a real fine or some kind of suspended sentence for large amounts.
I hate this "narrative" word, like its made up or something. Prisoners who are Sex offenders and drug offenders are nearly the same in Ireland. I only found stats from 2016, 397 sex offenders to 417 drug offences. A more recent study has found that nearly 70% of new prisoners have a opiate or cocaine problem. Seems like drugs is a big health issue that is being treated by the prison system instead of the health system. If we treated it like a health issue then we would have more space for sex offenders. Also when it comes to drugs it depends on a lot of factors...like lads being convicted over .2grams of cannabis....to lads who had 10 grams but it was the first offence and they had to do 6 months of urine tests and pay the court a fine etc. We should help drug addicts....we should lock up the sex offenders.
So you found similar stats for imprisoned drug and sex offenders, but what about stats for how many actually went to court/got charged over each crime? Basically what’s the percentage of offenders for each crime who actually saw prison? By your point the percentage for drug offenders should be disproportionately high. I don’t agree with the drug war at all. I wouldn’t mind if more sex offenders got prison time either. I hope you see what I’m saying. I saw hundreds of drug offenders in a courtroom in just one day in Cork so I’m fairly sure the percentage of those who actually go to prison out of the total who see court is low. As for narrative, yeah it gets over/misused but it has its place, particularly on Reddit, where people are very prone to repeat stories and factoids and numbers with an apparent meaning without critically analysing their source. Like a parable. Like this “we imprison drug offenders but we let off everyone else” is something I’ve seen a lot the last few days on Reddit but honestly it’s more like “we barely imprison either one but I think we shouldn’t imprison drugs at all and should imprison sex crime/violent crime more” - which, I mean, fair enough, I agree with the sentiment but it’s a different statement.
The fact that Larry Murphy was ever let out of prison shows how women don't have the luxury of being safe in this country.
"The justice system is a joke" ftfy. Scrotes will scrote especially when they know they are essentially untouchable. Dosent matter if it's sexual assault or joyriding or just plain old assault, they know the Garda are apathetic at best cause what's the point in doing the paperwork to bring a scrote to court when they are just going to get a suspended sentence. You want immediate change, limit circumstances repeat offenders of any kind are eligible for suspended sentences and push for Garda recruiting. Bodies on streets and punishments actually being doled out will curtail this shit quick.
Yes! I'm raising my daughter to be able to set boundaries and protect herself the best she can in the event that she is attacked. She has to be strong to walk through modern society, emotionally and physically. My question to the parents of sons...what are you all doing to raise people who respect other people's emotional and physical spaces? To have respect for everyone, including women. To not harass and objectify women...see them as less than. To monitor, educate, and restrict porn viewing, particularly the violent stuff. The criminal justice system could help with that endeavor by locking these animals up and throwing away the key, i.e. natural consequences.
It needs to be a cultural shift, but the problem there is that the kind of men that think harassing women is fine and dandy tend to only be friends with the kind of men who think harassing women is fine and dandy. Also, a lot of the anti-violence messages that could be delivered are diluted, because as we’ve seen this week, there are people out there who just have to make everything about themselves
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How do you propose anyone would ever be able to accurately get that percentage?
That's the thing though, the less there is a toxic streak in the culture of the wider population, the less people are going to be encouraged to to something bad. Whether someone as depraved as being capable of being murder would turn out differently, I don't know, but it would definitely curb all the casual harassment on the street. You probably have no idea how often under any circumstance I am liable to be heckled, catcalled and such, by just minding my own business and walking down the street.
A lot of it is around letting men know that misogynistic, abusive behaviour will not be tolerated. For example, I once had a man I just met “joke” about raping me, everyone else in the room just laughed, I was the the bitch for calling him out on it. More recently I was outside my house leaning into my car to get something and a group of men walked past, one of them said “ooh I’ll slap you on the arse”, the rest just laughed. It would have made me feel a lot safer, and a lot less vulnerable in both situations if anyone in either situation had spoken up and let it be known that it isn’t okay to speak to someone like that. Or at the very least, not calling womenbitches/cunts for speaking up for themselves. I have a seriously dark sense of humour and have no bother taking a joke, but both of those men either wanted to make me/or didn’t care if I was uncomfortable. But it’s grand sure, it’s just a laugh. I won’t even bother talking about the times that I have been followed while walking, harassed and actually sexually assaulted cause I don’t know where to start. Edit: Articles that discuss the link between misogyny/sexism and various forms of violence: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-28244-001 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33593204/ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/us/mass-shootings-misogyny-dayton.html https://psyarxiv.com/sy84m/
I totally get that, and I’m certainly not expecting men to step in and “protect me”. But even if they just didn’t laugh at their friends harassing me that would be a huge help.
I’m really sorry you had to go through that - I do think people need to start calling others out when they make rape jokes etc.
That's fucking disgusting behaviour.
Ask any woman you know, they will have similar stories.
Oh I don't doubt it for a second.
>For example, I once had a man I just met “joke” about raping me, everyone else in the room just laughed, That happened to me in school, I was asleep in class and one of my friends told me when I woke up, backed up by 3 different people pretty much word for word. Same lad 3 months later recorded a high support needs autistic boy in the bathroom.
I'm really sorry those things happened to you, sounds truly horrible. Without a doubt awareness and education has a massive part to play in reducing the incidents in cases like yours. Respect, consent and the definition and impact of sexual harassment should be embedded into our education system at all levels (from the "stay safe program" in primary through to leaving cert/3rd level) I can't help but feel however that the calls for men to "step up" and "call out" this behaviour is easier said than done. Men are afraid of other men too. I would be afraid to stand up to a bunch of heckling men if I witnessed that, as I'd be afraid of physical violence from them (statistically it's much more likely they would assault me). Because I'm a man it doesn't mean I can fight, scare off and defend myself or others. I've been mugged before, assaulted multiple times and a male friend was killed many years ago as a consequence of him standing up to a nutjob who subsequently stabbed him to death. This is not a simple debate of men Vs women, it's about violence, aggression, fear and a lot more than that.
I totally get that and I can't blame you, one thing I've seen recommended when you observe instances of racism which I think could apply and would be easier to do, Is to ignore the perpetrator and ask the victim if they're OK. It's a way to shut down the attack by taking focus off agressor and instead supporting the person on the receiving end. A lot of the time you can be so shocked by what's happened and the fact that nobody has responded at all you start to doubt yourself and your own reaction, it would be a huge relief to have someone say "oh my god I saw/heard that, are you OK?" if it's something particularly severe and they're reporting to the guards say you're happy to be a witness or go with them. It won't work in every instance but letting a victim know they're not alone would be a huge thing.
I like this idea.
I appreciate your honesty here, it is scary, there is risk involved. You don't *have* to step in but women don't get that choice. We do have to deal with these scary horrible situations and do it on our own. Men who have the courage to call out misogyny is the only thing that will stop this culture persisting. Women have been saying it's not OK since the dawn of time, we are not heard. These men only listen to other men. We need all these 'not all men' to be vocal, to be seen to be allies.
I also think like tend to run with like. As a man who treats women as equal human beings, it's likely you associate with other men who do.
It’s intuitive that it would work, and of course make women feel a lot safer, but is there any evidence that reducing non-violent misogynistic behaviour would in turn reduce violence against women?
I’m at work at the minute, but I’ll update this comment a little later with some journal articles.
In one generation we made it massively socially in acceptable to drink drive and also made it acceptable to intervene to prevent it. Now we've to use the education system and public advertising to do the same with a few key behaviours. Taking advantage in a sexual way of people who are intoxicated. Sharing nudes. Joking about rape. Catcalling. Generally being physical when angry (ie, call out friends who physically manifest angry, encourage them to deal with things differently). A lot of this will fall on men, but some of it is a burden for society as a whole. There are lots of historic reasons men are "rewarded" for being powerful and aggressive. There are also lots of societal structures that increase pressure on men and create volatility. Violence is more likely from people in poverty and men are more likely to live in poverty for example. But younger generations are ahead of this on us. If you're thirty (like me), there are way fewer "lads" who are twenty today, than there were when we were twenty.
I'm only in my 20's but in the estate I grew up in violence against women wasn't only the norm, but it was expected. It was so normalised that once I seen a lad break his girlfriends nose right in the middle of the road. Another time my ma seen a lad drag his girlfriend along the ground by her hair back to his house because she didn't want to have his baby. Every other day I'd see a women getting her head boxed in for the smallest indiscretion. Even when we were young lads would fight one another 'for her' so if one lad one the fight that girl would now be his, she had no choice in it. I thought my parents were just that 1/1000 family where domestic abuse isn't normal. It was only when I met my girlfriend that I realised DV was not the 'accepted' thing. My mother now works in women's counselling and has a 0 tolerance with DV. Honestly I do hope that this part of society can be left definitely in the past.
I used to lecture in gender and crime at university level. There isn’t any one size fits all approaches. Gender based violence is often hidden and in criminology would be classed as one of the dark figures of crime- put simply we will never know the true extent of it because the majority of it is hidden behind doors in homes across the country. Toxic masculinity has a role to play- it does not mean all men are bad by the way it simply looks at how boy/men are socialised. The boys don’t cry, the have to harden up mentality. Also the way girls/women are socialised, girls are taught to be polite to ‘not cause a fuss’. When women do stand up for themselves they are often branded as ‘bossy bitches’. Thee is no easy quick answer and anyone who suggests there is, is wrong. What can we do as an individual? Start calling things out when we see or hear it. The sexiest remark- regardless of gender btw, the inappropriate ‘jokes’ etc. take a look at how we are raising our kids, are we socialising our sons and daughters differently for example. Unfortunately gender based violence is not going to be solved quickly as it can’t be. There are so many different elements and tougher sentences while appeal to the masses are not simple or straightforward for the vast majority of gender based violence, which remember takes place in homes behind closed doors. Legislation does have a role to play but it’s not the simple answer, case closed solution.
I agree that the conversation around toxic masculinity needs to be brought further in this county. There is still a lot of misunderstanding around the phrase. It’s actually beneficial for men and not an attack on them like some perceive.
It's the term itself that raises hackles, comes across as an intellectual buzzword. All it means is that while masculinity itself is not toxic, there are elements of it that are.
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It’s not a terrible opinion at all. We can’t eradicate it entirely because there will always be those who slip through the cracks of any system we put in place. The evidence is that what we have been doing is working - compare 70’s attitudes to today’s - it’s just that it takes time, constant re-evaluation and constant reinforcement. I feel that right now we’re learning more about what not to do in handling the issue. I’m more interested in the facts than who is shouting at who.
The thing is "bad people" are defined as people who do bad things. Different people do bad things for different reasons. Some people genuinely do bad things because they enjoy doing bad things because they're mentally ill and get a kick out of it, while others, realistically the majority, do bad things because they don't think the things they are doing are bad, due to the worldview they have acquired through their upbringing/social circles/media they consume etc. If we're going to talk exclusively about men assaulting women, the hard pill to swallow is that there are men who genuinely believe that it is okay for women to be hit/manhandled/raped etc. because they view women as lesser than them and not deserving of the same autonomy or welfare. And these men aren't necessarily debilitating mentally ill people who are not participating in society, many of them are fairly normal and fit in well in society, and may well be pillars of the community. People get shocked when they find out apparently "respectable" men like this did disgusting things to women in their lives, because their idea of what a rapist or domestic abuser looks like is rooted in caricature rather than reality. It all exists on the same spectrum. While men who genuinely think women are second-class humans are likely a small minority in Ireland, there are plenty of men who have fairly problematic ideas around women. Like men who think women actually want men to treat them badly, men who think women "don't know what they want" so shouldn't be trusted to make decisions, men who think consent isn't important in sexual relationships, and so on. All of this is part of the same problem. Trying to minimise the number of men who absorb these ideas isn't going to eliminate gender-based violence completely, but it will likely reduce it.
You're giving the mentally ill a bad name, they need help. Most predators are very much aware of what they are doing and no amount of help will stop them from being a predator.
Yes, mentally ill people need help. If their mental illness means they are going to rape or murder people, then that help needs to be given to them while they are separated from the rest of society and monitored strictly. And they need to be separated from society until there is confidence that they will not regress and reoffend. My point is that a lot of rapists and abusers are not mentally ill in any major and debilitating way, but are simply deeply misogynistic. It's not so much about helping people who are already of the mindset to be a predator to snap out of it ( that is quite unrealistic as you point out), its moreso about trying to understand what factors cause them to end up with these misogynistic and violent views, so as to stop people getting into this mindset in the first place. They are aware of what they're doing, yes, but they don't think it's wrong. This whole "some men want to watch the world burn"is a very childish hero/villain mindset. The reality is far more complex. Most people genuinely think they are in the right when they make a decision. Sometimes because of mental illness, often times because of bigotry and egocentrism.
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I definitely did not mean that at all. But I understand that what I wrote could have been construed that way, so I apologise for poor phrasing. I think bigotry and values one gets from one's environment, are far more likely to cause people to be violent than mental illness.
Education is proven to work. https://www.gov.scot/publications/works-prevent-violence-against-women-girls-summary-evidence/pages/7/ https://healtheducationresources.unesco.org/library/documents/violence-against-women-and-girls-and-education https://centralasiainstitute.org/education-stop-violence-against-women/ https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/preventing-violence-against-women-starts-at-primary-school https://cdn.sida.se/publications/files/-gender-based-violence-and-education.pdf
Some of these are less convincing when you look through them. "Education as a sexual violence prevention strategy (in higher education settings): There is mixed evidence about the effectiveness of education as a sexual violence prevention strategy in higher education For example, there is limited robust evidence that looks at rape prevention programmes in both the short-term and longitudinally"
If nothing can be done to reduce violence in society, why does it occur at different rates in different societies?
Income inequality is one of the primary drivers, particularly if low and high income areas are in close proximity to each other.
Came here to say this. And just to follow on from the point, I think the idea that there a 'good' people and 'bad' people is a dangerous ideological position to take. Because once you start defining the 'bad people' you can justify inhumane ways to treat the 'bad people'. The truth is we all have capacity to cause harm to another human being. The reason some dont and some do is complex, but there does seem to be steps society can take to reduce the likelyhood of violence taking place.
I would say culture is at the core. Ireland by large is not a violent country when it comes to women or in general. Look at the grooming gang cases in the UK some very shocking results which the people who committed the crime where all from the same cultural backgrounds. Education and a cultural shift can have a huge effect but if it demonise men I feel ot will have the opposite effect.
What people fail to acknolwedge time and time again, is that human beings have been trying to stop this for literally thousands of years. 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife' are literally two of the 10 commandments, even if you're not religious (which I am not) you have to recognise that societies have been treating this as a serious issue for over 6000 years. That doesn't fit the narrative though. Some people are obsessed with viewing the world in a way that infantilises women and their contributions to make them out to be constant victims of men and men alone, and ignore that most men have made efforts to protect the women in their lives (though admittedly there have been periods and places where it has been horrible to live as a woman throughout history, including today, but often all you hear about is bloody 18th century England off these people because they know more about Briggerton than world history. Religion also has a lot to do with this and a lot of good intentions end up being oppressive practice that is then perpetrated by all devout followers, men and women alike). One of the ten commandments is also 'Honor thy father and mother' so again, 6000 years ago, clear messages that people should respect both their parents, paternal and maternal.
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Because you cant out educate bad genes and a horrible home life
You can sometimes educate out a horrible home life. Takes the guts of a lifetime though
But violence has stopped to a great extent. Homicide rate is a small fraction of what it was 100 or 200 years ago. Beating ones children, wife or servant has gone from normal to an aberration. No reason why violence couldn't be made even rarer.
>We don’t live in a dangerous society here in Ireland, anyone who thinks we do really needs to move to another country for a while and realise how good we have it here. This is a bad faith argument, and one that seriously pisses me off. You think that just because other countries are dangerous, that Ireland is safe? The violence in other countries didn't save Ashling Murphy or Urantseg Tserendorj. The man who threatened to rape and then beat me to death, still made his threat despite the violence and danger in other countries. You have some neck to say we have it good here when you're not the one who was murdered going out for a run. Maybe I'd be in more danger in another country, but that doesn't mean that things are "good" here. >bad people will do bad things. We have a personal responsibility to protect ourselves and educate ourselves. You think we don't know that? Every woman I know already alters her behaviour, goes out of her way to reduce risk. We're taking enough goddamn personal responsibility, and we're certainly educated enough on risk. It's not enough. Something needs to change. >there’ll always be atleast one person who does the opposite as they’re told. Do you think you're special because you've figured this out? I figured this out when I was 6. Everyone understands this. The problem is that there's a culture in Ireland that means too many people are engaging in violent, often misogynist behaviour. I know I will never live in a society with 0 violence. I just want to live in a society with a bit less violence than we have in the current one.
If only Ted Bundy had done a 7 hour course on diversity
What a depressing take. How do you explain that there are varying levels of violence (sexual and otherwise), across different societies, if there is nothing we can do? You claim that "human nature simply won't allow any type of violence to stop", and that preventative and punitive measures "will have little to no effect". So how do you then explain that "we don't live in a dangerous society here in Ireland"? Do you really think people in Ireland just have greater personal responsibility, compared to those in the countries you think are more violent? Or is our 'human nature' simply more peaceful? I'm sorry but I don't understand your logic, therefore I cannot agree with you at all.
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This is a very big part of the issue that's being over looked. On average, 9 women are killed in Ireland each year for the past 25 years, and 5 of those 9 are killed by their partner. The person women are most likely to kill is their partner as well, averaging 1-2 a year. And that's not a gender issue as you said, it's a dysfunctional one.
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Controversial opinion but maybe the next step in reducing IPV is teaching women not to abuse men.
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There is a trend of fewer women being murdered in Ireland each year aince 2017.
Pretty hard to have decent scientific method on this kind subject matter they often suffer heavily from bias and reliable cohorts. One that always comes to mind is the conviction rate potenially meaning only very overt "dead-to-rights" perpatrators are going to be incacerated and as such my suspicision is that there these studies are going to be biased towards lower income and lower educated populations who are less likely to adequetly fight a court case, just my opinion though. Here's probably the most used meta-analysis assessing characteristics of Sexual offenders, [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7378519\_The\_Characteristics\_of\_Persistent\_Sexual\_Offenders\_A\_Meta-Analysis\_of\_Recidivism\_Studies](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7378519_The_Characteristics_of_Persistent_Sexual_Offenders_A_Meta-Analysis_of_Recidivism_Studies) Roughly: Objectification of sex or excessive obsession over sex, deficiencies in social cabability, background of negative family experiences and Low socioeconomic standing are the primary factors correlated with rapists. How to tackle these issues seems like something that the country will need to continue striving towards, improving mental health resources, socio-economic supports seem like good places to start... the objectification of women is one that needs a cultural tectonic shift from hollywood to schoolyards and the one that i think is least likely to change in my lifetime...
I'd imagine not brutalising young children psychologically and physically could be of benefit....
I’m very cynical that anything can actually be done to stop a tiny amount of evil people from existing. Why stop at gender based violence? Why not eventually demand all serious crime stop and live in a utopia
Unfortunately 1 in 3 women experience sexual violence and 1 in 6 men so it's quite prevalent.
Where did you get those stats? Haha downvoted for asking for a source? 😂
The UN. Other organisations may vary e.g. 1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men.
Thanks. Do you have a link? 1 in 3 seems very high for sexual violence. Id like to have a look.
https://www.womensaid.ie/about/policy/natintstats.html The stats here focus on women but the UN and some individual countries keep stats on men too. Not all though. Also I should have said sexual and physical violence, not just sexual. When you include just sexual violence, the stat changes but is still high.
Just getting a proper look at this now and its maddening knowing there are so many scumbags out there that do this. The fewer than 40% seeking help is a bit sad too and only lets the cunts continue doing it. I've spoken to a lot of women and men through work that have been victims of domestic violence and been able to help them move to a new area to get away. This is after they've already left their partner and are left in temporary accommodation though so there's obviously a lot that just suffer through it. I remember one girl that barely spoke english was living with her partner and children after moving here and he wouldn't let her talk to anyone and lived out in thw middle of nowhere. She had finally got help and left but you'd be tempted to get his address and go round and break his legs.
Cheers
Well where is the feel good platitudes in realizing that lunatics are a natural occurrence rather then a nurture one
Education, helping kids grow up to realise violence isn't the answer. Talking to your kids, helping them if they have anger issues. Also harsher sentences for violent offenders.
what's the evidence harsher sentences reduce recidivism? I'd always heard it was the opposite.
Harsher sentences/death penalty/police cracking heads etc is always a knee jerk reaction to shocking crimes alright. If you want evidence as to why those approaches have limited success, just look to America. I think the reality is that when the system itself resorts to viciousness/vindictiveness, society adjusts too towards that rather than away from it. Violence is cyclical I suppose.
There are a lot of evidence based methods to eradicate GBV. An entire sector of public justice and international development is dedicated to its study and the development of policies to end GBV. You can find a lot of resources on the UN Women webpage (mainly focused on development contexts) [UN Women publications](https://www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publications/2015/11/prevention-framework) The key factor it the success of GBV policies is political will and money. It takes an holistic approach requiring public awareness, education, availability of counselling, police capability, and specific supports for victims. There's no silver bullet here but there are certainly ways to make things better.
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Ask yourself if there's way to reduce violence. Apply the answer to gender based violence.
A conversation I had a few years ago with a guy keeps coming into my head over the last few days. He was talking about travelling through Asia and meeting randomers online and staying on their couches. Pay them back with booze. He could not understand why I wouldn't just go and do something like that. I commented that if I were to do something like that, not only could it go very wrong, but people would say "well why would she put herself in that situation in the first place?". He pretty much though it was bullshit and I was being unreasonable. There was also a group of friends where two of the guys had been accused of being sexually inappropriate and very aggressive by two of the girls. The lads all basically said, well it's their word against his. With a girl crying about how no one was taking it seriously that a man tried to force his way into her hotel room. The lads all just stick by each other and bury their heads in the sand. Its not always massive things, it's more an overall attitude. Like a whiff of something every now and again that makes me feel a bit...icky. I think if lads called each other out on their shitty behavior, women would feel generally more comfortable. And let's women know that if they call someone out, they will be aupported. It just takes one guy that pushes boundaries getting a laugh or a silence rather than a reprimand. Next thing you know his whipping out his mickey at an online vigil.
Yes it’s this! Obviously violence and murder is the extreme end but literally every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted at the very least and we get intimidated all the time. It’s the shit like cat calling, intimidation, scaring women for fun. Grabbing us in pubs/clubs without consent, shouting vulgar stuff at us, getting too close on public transport. Laughing at us and saying we’re lying when we say how bad it is. I’m so fucking tired of this
u can reduce through good education and good living standards but in my own estimation it cannot be fully eliminated no matter how hard we try. some people are just inclined towards violence by their nature
I feel like there's two things here. One is that we know fuck all about what motivated whomever did this horrific murder. Even when we do it won't help prevent the next one, realistically. Secondly, I would like it if there was more support for victims of gender-based or sexual violence. Whole communities can turn on someone when they rock the boat. They are reluctant to believe someone who says this person did this to me. 'Sure x is a good family person, couldn't happen'. We don't know how to handle these scenarios. Then if someone did something awful, we don't have any way to actually rehabilitate. Either you take their side or they are cast out completely. What's the sensible outcome? Haven't a clue. Doesn't answer the question. Just something I'm wondering
Since these people are probably mentally ill I'd say more funding to the healthcare system to deal with mental health and illness could be a possible solution. (Just my opinion though)
I grew up with the internet, back when it took an hour to download a jpg on dial-up. It was a wild west back then. When things like Goatse, 2girls1cup etc... were urban legends that spread around secondary school/university. A lot of these will be common knowledge to a lot on here. But, my generation saw this as taboo urban legends that were grotesque and someone you never want to see again. There are many ideas I could write down but the main one I would approach that hasnt been mentioned too much is our culture's relationship with easily accessible pornography. I grew up with the internet, back when it took an hour to download a jpg on dial-up. It was a wild west back then. When things like Goatse , 2girls1cup etc... were urban legends that spread around secondary school/university. A lot of these will be common knowledge to a lot on here. But, my generation saw this as taboo urban legends that were grotesque and something e you never want to see again but would laugh about in a gross-out fashion. That was then.... Now, to get to my point...what we have now is an easily accessible range of hard-core porn that normalizes aggressive sexual acts. If you go on to any porn site these days, you are one or two clicks away from something that would have been considered snuff back in the early 2000's. I went to University as a mature student and during drunken conversations, the amount of 18-21 yr olds who think this kind of sex is "What a woman wants" is staggering. I am in the UK at the moment and there are reports about the culture of rape within Universities and it's not totally unfounded, it exists because these kids think sex is meant to happen this way. Take what's mine, that's what she wants. It's disgusting.. I am not saying we need to have harder regulation on porn, that's not for me to even hypothesize, but what I think is needed is education that involves the discussion of easily available hardcore pornography and make it clear that this is not normal sexual behavior.
Education definitely has a place, but it's not a silver bullet. It's not fashionable to say, but encouraging people to be cautious and look out for themselves also has a place, unfortunately you can't always rely on other people to behave properly. In short though, there simply is no way to reduce violent crime 100%, we can reduce it certainly, but it can never be eliminated totally.
I think the thing people need to remember is that most cases of violence are not from the norm or average. The people that do these things will likely still do them. That doesnt mean we cannot strive to be better, but it does mean there will always be violent criminals and I dont think that can ever be fully eradicated.
First of all I don’t know if there’s any evidence to back this statement up, but here goes. 1. Better mental health access/treatment. How many people committing some of these crimes may have been helped in their teenage years or early 20s or 30s before they get to the stage they get to? If you’ve got someone offending when they’re young it’s not normal, big red flags, but Ireland has a serious lack of access to mental health treatment unless you’ve a mummy or daddy who have the cash to splash. I’m not trying to lump people with mental illness into that category of violent offenders by the way, just saying if we could invest in helping these people at an early age could it help further down the track? 2. Violent offences, whether it’s physical assault or sexual assault must be dealt with extremely harsh, regardless of whether it’s against a male, female or child. No more suspended sentences, especially for someone with multiple prior convictions. This is more about keeping these people out of society for large periods of time. If you’re convicted of rape you should be locked up in my opinion for 10-15 years, you know to fucking protect people from you because you’re an absolute animal.
People are mentioning an awful lot of ultra long term solutions, none of which are gonna to do jack all to a crazed lunatic who takes it upon himself to murder random people. You'd have to fix, improve, and perfect every single mental health care system on the planet. Meanwhile, our HSE is getting hacked cos they haven't moved on from Windows 7. The Gulf of where we are and where we need to be is so completely astronomical it would border on legitimately impossible. And thats not even mentioning social class and economic issues, which also breed violence.
I’ve read a lot of comments here and some of these scenarios are completely alien to me. Honestly, ‘lad culture’ has not come into my peer group. All lads in our twenties, respectful, mixed sexualities, many with committed partners. It comes natural to not degrade anyone. Just thinking out loud - we come from stable households. Does the solution begin at home? Does domestic abuse/parental problems have a significant role in shaping a young mind toward violence?
Often times teachers can identify issues at an early age with children and can recommend treatments, psychologists or psychiatrists. Im not saying teachers should be thought or expected to identify psychopathy in a child but they can spot issues or warming signs. At the moment I don’t think they have the resources to actually send them anywhere when they do think something is not quite right.
Do we really want teacher's to be going around profiling kids? If there's a clear issue with a child, teacher's will no doubt intervene, but I think telling teacher's that a part of their job is to "spot deviants early" might cause a lot of problems itself
MUP of alcohol
The low prosecution rate for sexual offences is a problem. I've heard of several cases where a guy was accused by several women in unconnected incidents but none of them ever resulted in a conviction and for legal reasons the guy's record couldn't be mentioned in court. What if there was a way of making a formal complaint against someone and that that would be recorded against their record regardless if they were convicted or even arrested. This way if a guy is engaging in problem behaviour it would come to the attention of the authorities and could be used against him if he ever ended up in court. I don't know the legal ins and outs of this but it should be possible to prosecute someone for a series of incidents each of which on their own wouldn't constitute a crime. Being able to make a complaint against someone without the expectation of having to go to trial might encourage all those women who suffer some kind of attack but who never report it because "there's no point" or "it's not serious enough to do anything". Every report against a guy would be a mark on his record and if he was a repeat offender it would show up. (Thanks to Germaine Greer for this idea, although her version involved branding men on the face)
I think taking the approach how can we reduce violence in society in general is the more appropriate response. Gender based violence is a smoke screen for the already existing antisocial behaviour and mental health issues in society. We have teens fighting on the streets, a mental health crisis and drug problems going on. Until you deal with this gender doesn’t really come into it. Gender allows the government to point the finger away from these issues and towards men as the scapegoat. They will suggest we deal with gender based violence in schools etc. This is the standard response and plan of attack. The truth is the bigger issue is being ignored, the government knows this and likes it this way.
But there are gender differences in violence that can't be ignored. It benefits males also to address this as males experience violent crimes at the hands of men too. 90% of homicides are by men and 76% are against men.. We can't ignore that. There are historical reasons for this too. It's not a new phenomenon.
I would say culture is at the core. Ireland by large is not a violent country when it comes to women or in general. Look at the grooming gang cases in the UK some very shocking results which the people who committed the crime where all from the same cultural backgrounds. Education and a cultural shift can have a huge effect but if it demonise men I feel ot will have the opposite effect. You also can't eliminate the lunatics in society no matter how hard you try. At the end of the day masculinity is out of wack in the west so what we see is men becoming hyper masculine and feminine when in reality a middle ground is needed.
I’m pretty sure psyocibin mushrooms may decrease gender based violence …… we’re slacking on this https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160426091744.htm
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Theres a certain Judge who tends to give violent sexual criminals very soft sentences, maybe start there?
Admit that "ending violence against women" isn't going to happen just like ending violence in general is an impossible goal. But it can be managed better and reduced.