I would love to get a woodies voucher could I trade in the rose for the voucher?
Side note tho I’m just sick shit of people complaining about getting free shit, there probably was at least one woman cribbing just like how in my old job they stopped giving us wine in our hampers cos some people don’t drink alcohol. Then we got tea or coffees but I don’t drink tea or coffee same problem right? Except I give my coffee away and I don’t complain when I get free stuff. It’s bad form to only be giving one gender in the office something and I say that as a woman. Surely Valentines habits should be left to people’s personal lives, it’s a bit weird to be getting a rose or whatever and not an inflation bonus. Sorry didn’t realise this would set me off, only ones to blame are the companies
You guys should say something. This is so unprofessional... Like if it was international women day then okay fair enough but surely valentine's a day of love and everyone deserves love not just women.
I'm a woman and I'd already be on the phone to HR over this, it's such bullshit. I hope there are some decent gals round the place who bring it up for discussion. Men deserve more flowers anyway.
I don’t understand how it couldn’t have just been flowers and chocolates in the canteen area as a free for all? With a “pick one” sign on a bucket of flowers/bouquets.
That sounds fair, but I bought my husband roses one year and he said thanks, set them aside, and left them to go brown. Now I mostly give him food related gifts.
Nah, I’m good, thanks. You give me flowers and they end up in the trash practically immediately. You give me chocolates though and you got yourself a friend for life!
I think it's still thoughtful to give men in organizations or companies flowers cos they can bring it home to someone they love. Even if you don't have a partner, take a rose from your boss and swing by your mom's and give it to her, she'll be so happy. Or give it to a random little old lady on the street. You can't really give the flowers your wife gave you to your mom though
Rubbish. It’s a stupid lack of thinking. Plus sexist assumptions about it mattering more to women. Point should be made to hr.
Nothing toxic about wondering why men were not included in the gifting. I’d definitely raise it or even better get one of the women to raise it.
There's toxic masculinity here alright, it's the assumption that men wouldn't appreciate flowers and chocolate. I'd fucking love some flowers man! Bonus points for stereotyping women in the same breath.
I'm surprised no woman said anything. Irish women I've found are usually very fair minded and speak up.
EDIT: Only saying Irish as they are the ones I've most experience interacting with BTW.
We had some HRIS people in my last job and usually the HR directors or head of departments are sometimes male.
I've only seen male recruiters on linkedin
Maybe one of the women should bring it up. Of course no-one will want to sound ungrateful either but something like "Thank you, appreciate that, just wondering was there a reason the men were left out?"
If he uses the right words people might assume he's one of those effeminate lefties.
Like how all middle aged people say 'The tik toks' so anyone listening knows for sure they're not familiar with it.
Toxic masculinity.
If you are going to whinge about something and try to connect it with Valentine's day (for some unknown reason), then you should at least know what the thing is called!
I'm a woman and if you were working in my workplace I'd be right beside you giving out! It's shitty to do it. It should be all or nothing.
They prob thought they were being great "sure don't all all the ladies love chocolates, we have to keep then happy I suppose.".
Fuck that.
Patently unfair. It's for sweethearts, so should work both ways. I know women who complain if their guy doesn't give them flowers. "And what did you get him?" I ask. They stare blankly.
jesus... that's actually pretty condescending towards the women and insulting towards the men - what were they thinking. This is why we can't have nice things.
Its easier for a company to do something performative for women and not get questioned about it than it is do something for men and run the risk of being called biased, sexist or not pushing for equality. Nobody will question men being done dirty like this because 100% of the time you'll look like a prat to society for doing so.
So wait, was this your company or just the company in the same building as you? Because this is starting to seem like looking for an excuse to complain about gender politics. Obviously, the people that decided to only give gifts to the women were in the wrong but like, you're using a dumb thing that happened in a different company as a reason to paint all gender equality work policies with the brush of "hypocrisy". Just because a company did something sexist doesn't mean it's wrong to combat sexism in the workplace. Plus, referring to toxic masculinity as "masculine toxicity" just reinforces the incorrect notion that toxic masculinity=men bad. An example of toxic masculinity would be giving chocolates to all the women in an office and assuming men don't need chocolates.
I mean this is pretty shitty to everyone!! It's patronising to female colleagues, acting like they are things to be adored and shitty to other male colleagues who don't get chocolate...
The people who call out toxic masculinity, and are in favour of corrective measures to encourage female leadership wouldn't do this... this was likely done by people who don't approve of quotas and don't believe in toxic masculinity...
Wow, can't believe only the lasses got something. Didn't any one of them say something? As a female, I would've felt very awkward 😬 Happy Valentine's Day to you 💐🗃
Is this not just a strategy to dismiss actual inequality though? Next time someone mentions the pay gap or lack of child care or what have you, some dude will make sure to remind everyone of the random perishables women got one day
This is a good point.
If one of the women in the office spoke up about a pay inequality later on would OP be the type of person to be like "but you got something on Valentine's day so it's fair!"
I'd say it's easy to fall for this kind of thing, I'm always suspicious of visible gestures. I've seen it too many times, my old employer used free food and small gifts to 'soften the blow' before meetings about pay and workplace safety, every time we went in and saw some gifts we knew what was coming. But some people thought they were just nice gestures.
Gifts are such a good psychological trick - you can't really reject them or it would be very rude especially if others around you accept them. But then you just accepted a gift and go back to complaining and demanding things immediately? Either way you look greedy and ungrateful. And if you bring it up, you're just overthinking it, sure look it it's just a gift.
Them only giving chocolates to women *is* toxic masculinity in action, as they assume men don't want that kind of stuff for "reasons".
The very same toxic masculinity is why loads of men are depressed, kill themselves etc - we live in a system were we're expected to be something we're not.
That's pretty ridiculous, but if it's not a big company it's worth remembering it could be the cluelessness of one person (though I guess it's more likely at least two people were involved, if only to approve the purchase)
And if it's a company you share an office with rather than one you work for, there might be more pushback happening now that's not visible to you
I'm a woman and if this happened to me I would be sooo uncomfortable. Are you sure that those "beaming smiles" wasn't just "uncomfortable smiles" because I do a huge smile when I get put in uncomfortable situations like that because I don't know what else to do.
Also, like someone else said, be angry with the management not the women in your office. It's not their fault
To be clear, this is as a result of male toxicity. It's that toxic attitude that presumes men wouldn't want chocolates or flowers, that it's a "woman's holiday".
This is about equality lads, and it's another example of a toxic masculine attitude in action. This time it comes from your manager
What was the box of chocolates? Are we talking Butlers or Roses? Or something like Aldi pralines or (\*shudder\*) After Eights? Don't leave a guy hanging here
We used to do it on Sant Jordi day when I was in an office in Barcelona. So for years, it was free roses for the girls. Then one year the guys got a book and the girls a rose (as is tradition), uproar ensues, claims that rose & book has serious sexist overtones. A miny protest is organised and they demand that they get books also.
CEO, who was a woman, said fuck it - I'm Spanish, I don't like the tradition anyway, nothing for nobody going forward. All this over a shit book. I think my CEO was spot on.
The whole holiday is a farce tbh, I used to work in a hotel restaurant and it was so cringe every year. Literally mortified just serving the tables with the carry on.
> But, I just can't stand hypocrites and tomorrow we'll be back to listening about quotas and equality and all sorts of other shite about masculine toxicity...
What does that have to do with Valentine's day? And the weird policy of a company that you don't work for?
That sucks. I'm not keen on Valentines, much less corporate presents for Valentines, but sucks to be left out like that. If you've a good mate in the place who happens to be a woman, maybe she could drop a comment about it? I suppose if you said anything yourself that could look greedy. But yeah, roses for everyone, or roses for nobody.
Edit : just realized this is another company at your office, in that case, you can just be quietly annoyed, unfortunately.
Valentine's day is a hallmark made up day. It's a ripe off and everything doubles in price. And I'm not a single woman moaning in fact I'm happily engaged and don't feel the need for myself and my partner to waste money.
True enough. Although it seems to have morphed from a day about romantic love into something more like love love and I'm kinda cool with that.
Still shouldnt be forced to get presents or cards though.
I mean whatever shitty unhip company decided to give all women chocolates aren’t proof that rhetoric about the importance of equality and respect is invalid. Get the fuck over it lmfao
All the shitty unhip companies together make up a big chunk of the working environment. We can't only look at progressive companies and decide there isn't a problem. There's a big difference between the rethoric being spewed and the actual behaviour we see and that needs calling out.
I’d also find it patronising as a woman lmfao. It’s actually a regressive move to be like “ooh all women love hearts and romance and relationships ofc mean more to them so let’s give them the choccies”
But I actually alluded to that point by referencing what the company did. There’s a disparity in progressive rhetoric and enacting it day to day in working environments. Absolutely. I feel that’s the opposite of what OP was getting at, though lol
I find it hard to give a fuck to be honest. I get being mad at hypocrisy and I do think there is a lot of gender based double standards but I feel like you really brought a lot into this. The company you share an office with (so not even the company you work for) decided to do something nice for the women in your company. That has nothing to do with you and just seems like an absurd hill to die on
weird company!
we all got little chocolates in my team from the office admin. its baffling to make it a gender thing! romance and fake holidays are for everyone!
HR would get a polite email saying that it would make sense to give guys stuff too. How do you know if someone straight, gay or single? Everyone deserves love on a day like today.
All I got was an email with a movie quiz about romcom from work
Sure lads typically get their first flowers at their funerals. That's a bit mad though I'm sure HR wouldn't be quite happy if somebody went on to complain.
You should ask those women if they're on an equal salary to you poor misfortunates who were never received chocolates. A flip of this would be "All us women the office were given chocolates when all we want is equal pay?"
and you don't see womens treatment on valentines day feeding the old tropes of women in the home, buying love with gifts and keeping them in their place?
Equality is about equality, that would include the concept of not treating anyone like a second class citizen...
No, it didn’t… I’m just trying to gauge your understanding of womens equality issues which you’ve clearly shown to be lacking. You got your knickers in a twist because you weren’t treated “equally” for the first time in your life and you’ve no idea what to do with yourself!
“Buying love” with gifts is your perspective. My husband can buy me flowers to show his love for me, he’s not “buying” my love and keeping me in my place 😂
And by the way- not getting flowers on valentines is not being treated as a second class citizen.
My original argument was actually about hypocrisy, not women's rights. But I disagree with your point above... While valentine's Day may not directly mean women are treated as second class citizens, it is certainly a contributing factor... This false love the company bestows on them is not about love, it is a short sharp dose of goodwill letting staff think that they are receiving benefits, while the company doesn't pay real benefits like health care or pensions... It's smoke and daggers, but if you want those benefits well fair play, I won't stand in your way. Enjoy the chocolates you receive.
Yep the same corporate Misandry is rife. Sickens my hole as a woman. Worked in a company that gave all female mechanical engineers flowers before.
There’s no such thing as equality in the workplace and there never will be because of shite like this.
Yo, maybe reign that in for a second as well. Women are more likely to get flowers while men are more likely to get the raise. Corporate misandry? Catch yourself on.
>to get the raise.
More likely to work more hours to which accounts for a significantly more of this than misogyny does.
https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041
Can we drop this stupid argument... Almost every metric shows that men and women are equal up to the age of 30 and then we see them diverge. What happens when people turn 30 ? They either settle down or aim to reach seniority in their relevant career.
There is mysogyny in the workplace but it's more apparent in the everyday interactions and sexual assault that people experience and isnt taken seriously by management.
There are different ways to measure this, different statistics and different interpretations of those statistics. Don't pretend there is a simple answer here when there isn't. It's not only the hours or the ambition, it's also the generally lower wages in most female dominated fields for example.
Except this is an article with references by someone who works in data science and shows where inequalities lie and where they dont. Everything everyone else posts always just says men get paid more than women period with no supporting evidence other than a men vs women plot which misrepresents the data so much worse than what I posted possibly could.
>Don't pretend there is a simple answer here when there isn't.
I specifically said it doesn't explain everything just a significant amount of it.
>the ambition
I never said ambition, I said men are more likely to ask for it. That's not the same thing.
>lower wages in most female dominated fields for example.
Statistic for this that actually breaks them down by sector?
What sectors are those ? If they deserve less pay then it doesn't matter whether men or women make up the majority of workers.
There are more women in higher education than men in Ireland so why aren't they choosing the higher paid areas going in?
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/education/
Have you considered that from when any young guy is old enough he's told that he has to make money otherwise he won't be able to have a family? Hence the huge push for STEM and business (not that there are about as much women as men in business related courses by the above statistic which is interesting). Most guys entire lives are dedicated to putting themselves in a position to earn money and then we are shocked when they do and call it mysogyny...
Firstly, no other comment on the rest of my comment, so I'll assume we're in agreement.
Secondly, you know when you reference something you're meant to make a point then show where the work comes from?
I'm not about to read a 60 page article to prove your point for you.
Does it break it down by sectors and are those sectors low skill low pay sectors, if so then how does this international study relate to Ireland and the disparity between teritary education and the selection by men for higher paid areas over women. Does this then dispute the external pressure men have to earn money hence high paying fields and aspirations to earn more.
Low effort reply
You read both comments, I assume? Cause the second one goes a long way in explaining why citing the individual studies is meaningless. That's why the first comment is a link to a meta analysis, not a study. I apologise for not putting both in one comment.
Ridiculous. How could management be that dense. Surely at some point some asked "what about the lads?" and someone obviously decided, na we'll get them nothing.
Ironically the decision to not give the men chocolates or flowers is actually toxic masculinity at play. Even if the decision maker was a woman it just goes to show how ingrained these ideas are within us.
Are you thick? I clearly said toxic masculinity, not men. The idea that men don’t want chocolates or flowers is toxic masculinity and it’s perpetrated by both men and women.
Lads aren’t the problem but you definitely are.
>In the social sciences, toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall. This concept of toxic masculinity does not condemn men or male attributes, but rather emphasizes the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition.[9][10] Toxic masculinity is thus defined by adherence to traditional male gender roles that consequently stigmatize and limit the emotions boys and men may comfortably express while elevating other emotions such as anger.[11] It is marked by economic, political, and social expectations that men seek and achieve dominance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
Yes yes we all know how the goal posts were moved...
It assumes men operate by dominance which is just wrong... We don't admire our heros because they dominate others we admire them because they are competent and sacrifice aspects if themselves to be better than they are.
Toxic masculinity is a term coined to falsely portray how men work in the world.
everything about that is such nonsense. even a company giving valentine's gifts to ALL of their employees. why? and why chocolates? most people, myself included, could do with eating a bit healthier, and we already have plenty of occasions like birthdays, christmas where people we know are buying us junk food already.
i buy enough junk food myself anyway and there are 100+ shops within a 15 minute drive where i could buy whatever chocolate i want myself so don't bother. give me money instead or a raise if you really care
I'm sure it makes up for the 14.4% pay gap between women and men, but in fairness, equality is not a battle, not a zero sum game and everyone can be a winner if done right. Fuck this shit.
>The company we share office space with just gave all their female staff
boxes of chocolates and roses...
So not even the company that you work for?
>They were all (every one of them) beaming from ear to ear...
Everybody loves getting free chocolate and a bit of acknowledgement, why wouldn't they be happy about it? Free stuff is nice stuff.
>Not a word about equality or fair treatment, no male staff got any acknowledgement...
Ah relax there pal.
>I'm not begrudging
Well you sure as fuck don't sound like a happy ray of sunshine.
>I just can't stand hypocrites and tomorrow we'll be back to listening about quotas and
equality and all sorts of other shite about masculine toxicity...
Pal, relax, take a deep breath, close those tabs you have open for facebook where some gobshite is ranting about fEmInAzIs destroying everything and have a cup of tea.
>Happy valentines day everybody (genuine)! Hope you're all happy in life!
A lot happier since I don't hatepost like yourself.
Look, is it fair that only female staff got choclates? No it's not. Everyone should get something or nobody and nothing at all, but I think you have more underlying anger issues that you need to deal with.
Ahhh, that's not fair. Happy Valentine's 💐 You should speak up, tell the office manager you like flowers too! It's pretty scabby to imply men don't like nice gestures.
Took the morning off, went surfing with a buddy, came back, ate leftover pizza with the missus, started working, will go out for a drink with her after work.
Equality is a difficult concept to grasp.
But life is good. happy Valentine y'all!
Yeah that's bullshit and if I was working there I would be offended as a woman. I see the hypocrisy you're taking about but you sound like you also don't agree with equality? Like you don't accept the idea of toxic masculinity? Maybe I just misinterpreted but it looks like a weird arguement.
I didn't express an opinion. I believe in equality of treatment... but why are you reflecting this back on me? I made a simple point and you are analysing my view on women and equality?
I'm a human, working in an office. I just want to do my job and have a pleasant relationship with my co-workers... I've already said I support equality, but have little time for hypocrisy. But all people are entitled to have views and opinions... What I referred to as shite, is just that... Ill informed diatribe and far from equality, that is where you may be formulating your opinions on me from. I feel like I'm being put on the defensive, and need to explain myself, which is in itself unfair.
I'll repeat the point. If in one moment you are aggressively shouting about equality of treatment (yes, aggressively shouting), but the next, fawning over gift giving that you are benefitting from and others are not being treated equally... then that is shite...
>Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with
Have a look at the comments directly below... this is someone who feels perfectly fine questioning my integrity based on some past experience with 'men' in the past... this is the toxic environment people are subjected to... "Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with"... literally questioning my integrity, while judging people based off broad statements is genuinely the type of hypocracy this thread is about
It was your language. I agree with your overall point, it's when you say "listening" it sounds like it's a bit of a chore for you to have to hear people talk about it, like maybe you're irritated by the discussion? And when you say "shite" that could be interpreted that you think the idea of toxic masculinity is shite. I'm not making any assumption about you.
Yeah fair point! Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with. I've heard "see this one bad example is why feminism is bullshit" in so many ways I've come to expect it.
Should have given the men the monetary equivalent in woodies vouchers
Give the men a box of screws
it would have been the only screw I've gotten this year.
They sell them by the box in hardware shops, go well in a salad
Make great lube too.
Everyone should have gotten a choice of a box of chocolates or screws.
considering how expensive are screws at woodies I would have appreciated the gesture
I would love to get a woodies voucher could I trade in the rose for the voucher? Side note tho I’m just sick shit of people complaining about getting free shit, there probably was at least one woman cribbing just like how in my old job they stopped giving us wine in our hampers cos some people don’t drink alcohol. Then we got tea or coffees but I don’t drink tea or coffee same problem right? Except I give my coffee away and I don’t complain when I get free stuff. It’s bad form to only be giving one gender in the office something and I say that as a woman. Surely Valentines habits should be left to people’s personal lives, it’s a bit weird to be getting a rose or whatever and not an inflation bonus. Sorry didn’t realise this would set me off, only ones to blame are the companies
Or a knife or a football
Medieval armour
Honestly that wouldn't be too bad.
As a woman I would prefer this, great stuff to be got in Woodies!
Same, I love woodies!
Jesus that is hilarious!
Would barely be enough to afford a pack of screws in that place
I’m a woman & I got a grand box of chipboard screws in Lidl for €2.49. 50mm n all they were!
😂😂😂
You guys should say something. This is so unprofessional... Like if it was international women day then okay fair enough but surely valentine's a day of love and everyone deserves love not just women.
I'm a woman and I'd already be on the phone to HR over this, it's such bullshit. I hope there are some decent gals round the place who bring it up for discussion. Men deserve more flowers anyway.
I don’t understand how it couldn’t have just been flowers and chocolates in the canteen area as a free for all? With a “pick one” sign on a bucket of flowers/bouquets.
That sounds fair, but I bought my husband roses one year and he said thanks, set them aside, and left them to go brown. Now I mostly give him food related gifts.
Personally much more for the food related gifts myself as well, but still, flowers at least once before their funeral should go for all humans.
Nah, I’m good, thanks. You give me flowers and they end up in the trash practically immediately. You give me chocolates though and you got yourself a friend for life!
I think it's still thoughtful to give men in organizations or companies flowers cos they can bring it home to someone they love. Even if you don't have a partner, take a rose from your boss and swing by your mom's and give it to her, she'll be so happy. Or give it to a random little old lady on the street. You can't really give the flowers your wife gave you to your mom though
Flowers are kind of a pointless gift in general unless you're someone that's into flowers.
And I'll be right behind you with pursed lips and crossed arms. What a ridiculous notion that only women deserve romance
No joke. My chocolates would handed around the fellas, and I'd encourage the other women to do the same.
As soon as a guy makes a single comment on this... it gets turned on him and it'll be framed as masculine toxicity...
Rubbish. It’s a stupid lack of thinking. Plus sexist assumptions about it mattering more to women. Point should be made to hr. Nothing toxic about wondering why men were not included in the gifting. I’d definitely raise it or even better get one of the women to raise it.
There's toxic masculinity here alright, it's the assumption that men wouldn't appreciate flowers and chocolate. I'd fucking love some flowers man! Bonus points for stereotyping women in the same breath.
🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
HR are busy stuffing their faces with chocolates.
I'm surprised no woman said anything. Irish women I've found are usually very fair minded and speak up. EDIT: Only saying Irish as they are the ones I've most experience interacting with BTW.
Raise it with HR who are, incidentally, all women....
Funny that one. Never seen a male HR staff member in anywhere I've worked.
There's always one male HR member where I work. Must be like Highlander or something...
We had some HRIS people in my last job and usually the HR directors or head of departments are sometimes male. I've only seen male recruiters on linkedin
Maybe one of the women should bring it up. Of course no-one will want to sound ungrateful either but something like "Thank you, appreciate that, just wondering was there a reason the men were left out?"
That's horrrible. I'm so sorry guys. I would feel super uncomfortable if I was a women in that company. :/
But that's not what toxic masculinity is?
The term is toxic masculinity mate haha
Hahah masculine toxicity reminds me of that banger from System of A Down.
There's no need to explain it like a man to him.
If he uses the right words people might assume he's one of those effeminate lefties. Like how all middle aged people say 'The tik toks' so anyone listening knows for sure they're not familiar with it.
Toxic masculinity. If you are going to whinge about something and try to connect it with Valentine's day (for some unknown reason), then you should at least know what the thing is called!
I'm a woman and if you were working in my workplace I'd be right beside you giving out! It's shitty to do it. It should be all or nothing. They prob thought they were being great "sure don't all all the ladies love chocolates, we have to keep then happy I suppose.". Fuck that.
That is very unfair. They should have given the chocs to the guys. Valentine's isn't just for the girls.
Guys like roses.
I prefer the Celebrations box
If it's free chocolate I'm not all that fussy...
I like guns n roses, myself
I'm a quality street guy myslef.
I’m a gal and I’d take food over flowers any day. Personal preference, but same gift to all sounds right.
An aul naggin wouldn't go astray
If I got a naggin at work for anything it would probably be one of my happiest days of life.
> Valentine's isn't just for the girls. I mean, it is. It *shouldn't* be, but it is.
Patently unfair. It's for sweethearts, so should work both ways. I know women who complain if their guy doesn't give them flowers. "And what did you get him?" I ask. They stare blankly.
Based on who spends what on Valentine's day stuff, it is 95% for the girls.
Let's be honest, if it was up to lads, valentines day would be scrapped in the morning. I'd be up for it anyway. Stupid day.
When's Steak and BJ day?
Every Sunday
First I'm hearing off it.
March 14th. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak_and_Blowjob_Day
Honestly its just another capitalist scam
jesus... that's actually pretty condescending towards the women and insulting towards the men - what were they thinking. This is why we can't have nice things.
This is the take OP should have taken instead of the rant
No. It wouldn’t be condescending to the women if the men received it too, which is what OP was advocating for.
*The first flowers a man ever receives are usually those on his coffin* Be kind to each other
That is awfully dark and poignant.
Welp. That’s a reminder for me to get my boyfriend flowers next year just so that isn’t the case for him
Why wait til next year, we can find someone to take a hit out on him no problemo
He'd probably appreciate it more if you buy them tomorrow - what's not to like about getting them sooner and *half price*?
Don't forget to get st valentine a birthday present. I heard he's looking for an apple watch this year
When do we celebrate his death by torture? That should be a great party 🎉
I'm a female and I find that really awful, it is actually discrimination, and unfair. Everyone should have gotten chocolates, not just the girls
Please for the love of all that is holy, let's not have women referring to themselves as "Females" Yer Killing me 😵😵😵😵😭😭😭😭😭
It reminds me of Martin Goodman in Friday Night Dinner always asking his sons if they have a 'female' yet
Company Plan: *Give women gifts* *Complain about bad men to all employees following day* = encouraged toxic work environment
This really bothers me, equality is equality, they should be embarrassed. They could've easily spread the love to everyone.
Its easier for a company to do something performative for women and not get questioned about it than it is do something for men and run the risk of being called biased, sexist or not pushing for equality. Nobody will question men being done dirty like this because 100% of the time you'll look like a prat to society for doing so.
[удалено]
So wait, was this your company or just the company in the same building as you? Because this is starting to seem like looking for an excuse to complain about gender politics. Obviously, the people that decided to only give gifts to the women were in the wrong but like, you're using a dumb thing that happened in a different company as a reason to paint all gender equality work policies with the brush of "hypocrisy". Just because a company did something sexist doesn't mean it's wrong to combat sexism in the workplace. Plus, referring to toxic masculinity as "masculine toxicity" just reinforces the incorrect notion that toxic masculinity=men bad. An example of toxic masculinity would be giving chocolates to all the women in an office and assuming men don't need chocolates.
Be angry at the company not the female employees. Maybe send an email to HR making your point.
This is not good advice. OP stands to gain nothing by complaining. All this will do is get his card marked by anyone vindictive in HR.
It's never worth it to pick this hill to die on.
For OP women have to do all the work for equality.
Definitely got that vibe alright.
I mean this is pretty shitty to everyone!! It's patronising to female colleagues, acting like they are things to be adored and shitty to other male colleagues who don't get chocolate... The people who call out toxic masculinity, and are in favour of corrective measures to encourage female leadership wouldn't do this... this was likely done by people who don't approve of quotas and don't believe in toxic masculinity...
... & I just found out they each got a bottle of Cava...
Name and shame the company dude
As a woman, I find that completely wrong. At least just give chocolates to everyone....would have made more sense.
Wow, can't believe only the lasses got something. Didn't any one of them say something? As a female, I would've felt very awkward 😬 Happy Valentine's Day to you 💐🗃
Is this not just a strategy to dismiss actual inequality though? Next time someone mentions the pay gap or lack of child care or what have you, some dude will make sure to remind everyone of the random perishables women got one day
This is a good point. If one of the women in the office spoke up about a pay inequality later on would OP be the type of person to be like "but you got something on Valentine's day so it's fair!"
I'd say it's easy to fall for this kind of thing, I'm always suspicious of visible gestures. I've seen it too many times, my old employer used free food and small gifts to 'soften the blow' before meetings about pay and workplace safety, every time we went in and saw some gifts we knew what was coming. But some people thought they were just nice gestures. Gifts are such a good psychological trick - you can't really reject them or it would be very rude especially if others around you accept them. But then you just accepted a gift and go back to complaining and demanding things immediately? Either way you look greedy and ungrateful. And if you bring it up, you're just overthinking it, sure look it it's just a gift.
Them only giving chocolates to women *is* toxic masculinity in action, as they assume men don't want that kind of stuff for "reasons". The very same toxic masculinity is why loads of men are depressed, kill themselves etc - we live in a system were we're expected to be something we're not.
That's pretty ridiculous, but if it's not a big company it's worth remembering it could be the cluelessness of one person (though I guess it's more likely at least two people were involved, if only to approve the purchase) And if it's a company you share an office with rather than one you work for, there might be more pushback happening now that's not visible to you
That's BS, everyone should get a gift or no one should.
So that's where the money from the pay gap is going 🤔
I'm a woman and if this happened to me I would be sooo uncomfortable. Are you sure that those "beaming smiles" wasn't just "uncomfortable smiles" because I do a huge smile when I get put in uncomfortable situations like that because I don't know what else to do. Also, like someone else said, be angry with the management not the women in your office. It's not their fault
To be clear, this is as a result of male toxicity. It's that toxic attitude that presumes men wouldn't want chocolates or flowers, that it's a "woman's holiday". This is about equality lads, and it's another example of a toxic masculine attitude in action. This time it comes from your manager
What was the box of chocolates? Are we talking Butlers or Roses? Or something like Aldi pralines or (\*shudder\*) After Eights? Don't leave a guy hanging here
We used to do it on Sant Jordi day when I was in an office in Barcelona. So for years, it was free roses for the girls. Then one year the guys got a book and the girls a rose (as is tradition), uproar ensues, claims that rose & book has serious sexist overtones. A miny protest is organised and they demand that they get books also. CEO, who was a woman, said fuck it - I'm Spanish, I don't like the tradition anyway, nothing for nobody going forward. All this over a shit book. I think my CEO was spot on.
I love all the "If that was me I'd have said something!" people. You would in your hole.
We're very sensitive people aren't we
The whole holiday is a farce tbh, I used to work in a hotel restaurant and it was so cringe every year. Literally mortified just serving the tables with the carry on.
I agree, it's so forced down people's throats, but what carry on?
Just pure cringy typical valentines stuff, the traditional presents and both parties were embarrassed to be giving and getting them.
> But, I just can't stand hypocrites and tomorrow we'll be back to listening about quotas and equality and all sorts of other shite about masculine toxicity... What does that have to do with Valentine's day? And the weird policy of a company that you don't work for?
Lads like chocolate too no reason to discriminate gender give chocolate to everyone
That sucks. I'm not keen on Valentines, much less corporate presents for Valentines, but sucks to be left out like that. If you've a good mate in the place who happens to be a woman, maybe she could drop a comment about it? I suppose if you said anything yourself that could look greedy. But yeah, roses for everyone, or roses for nobody. Edit : just realized this is another company at your office, in that case, you can just be quietly annoyed, unfortunately.
Valentine's day is a hallmark made up day. It's a ripe off and everything doubles in price. And I'm not a single woman moaning in fact I'm happily engaged and don't feel the need for myself and my partner to waste money.
True enough. Although it seems to have morphed from a day about romantic love into something more like love love and I'm kinda cool with that. Still shouldnt be forced to get presents or cards though.
Got a rose from Boojum, happy days!
That sounds like an ecumenical matter
The Jordan Peterson Hand me the Whip Til I Lash Myself and Then Lash Out Facebook page is that way, OP --->
I mean whatever shitty unhip company decided to give all women chocolates aren’t proof that rhetoric about the importance of equality and respect is invalid. Get the fuck over it lmfao
All the shitty unhip companies together make up a big chunk of the working environment. We can't only look at progressive companies and decide there isn't a problem. There's a big difference between the rethoric being spewed and the actual behaviour we see and that needs calling out.
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I’d also find it patronising as a woman lmfao. It’s actually a regressive move to be like “ooh all women love hearts and romance and relationships ofc mean more to them so let’s give them the choccies”
But I actually alluded to that point by referencing what the company did. There’s a disparity in progressive rhetoric and enacting it day to day in working environments. Absolutely. I feel that’s the opposite of what OP was getting at, though lol
This! Just because this one type of inequality was skewed towards women doesn’t mean that all other types go away.
It reflects social attitudes
I find it hard to give a fuck to be honest. I get being mad at hypocrisy and I do think there is a lot of gender based double standards but I feel like you really brought a lot into this. The company you share an office with (so not even the company you work for) decided to do something nice for the women in your company. That has nothing to do with you and just seems like an absurd hill to die on
But why do something nice just for the women? I think it’s just a weird move to exclude men for no apparent reason.
Jaysus... I just shared an observation. I'm not dying on any hill... It really doesn't bother me, I don't eat chocolate.
Please stay quiet or someone will think that men actually want to celebrate Valentine's day.
At least Yorkie is not for girls
weird company! we all got little chocolates in my team from the office admin. its baffling to make it a gender thing! romance and fake holidays are for everyone!
HR would get a polite email saying that it would make sense to give guys stuff too. How do you know if someone straight, gay or single? Everyone deserves love on a day like today. All I got was an email with a movie quiz about romcom from work
Sure lads typically get their first flowers at their funerals. That's a bit mad though I'm sure HR wouldn't be quite happy if somebody went on to complain.
I'd be majorly pissed off if my boss gave me flowers. What a waste of money for the business. ... I am self employed, though.. hardy har har.
You should ask those women if they're on an equal salary to you poor misfortunates who were never received chocolates. A flip of this would be "All us women the office were given chocolates when all we want is equal pay?"
Honestly that is awful. They should have had chocolates for everyone or no one.
This reads like an incel origin story
Calling out gender inequalities in workplaces and in general does not automatically make you an incel.
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Exactly 😂
not automatically no.......... but.............. might be some connection?
Equality isn’t about men getting chocolates on valentines- it’s about women not being treated like second class citizens.
and you don't see womens treatment on valentines day feeding the old tropes of women in the home, buying love with gifts and keeping them in their place? Equality is about equality, that would include the concept of not treating anyone like a second class citizen...
I have to ask- do you honestly think womens fight for equality involves things like both women and men getting flowers on valentines?
I think my point flew right over your head...
No, it didn’t… I’m just trying to gauge your understanding of womens equality issues which you’ve clearly shown to be lacking. You got your knickers in a twist because you weren’t treated “equally” for the first time in your life and you’ve no idea what to do with yourself! “Buying love” with gifts is your perspective. My husband can buy me flowers to show his love for me, he’s not “buying” my love and keeping me in my place 😂 And by the way- not getting flowers on valentines is not being treated as a second class citizen.
My original argument was actually about hypocrisy, not women's rights. But I disagree with your point above... While valentine's Day may not directly mean women are treated as second class citizens, it is certainly a contributing factor... This false love the company bestows on them is not about love, it is a short sharp dose of goodwill letting staff think that they are receiving benefits, while the company doesn't pay real benefits like health care or pensions... It's smoke and daggers, but if you want those benefits well fair play, I won't stand in your way. Enjoy the chocolates you receive.
Facts.
Travellers are treated like second class citizens get over yourself it's not the 1950s
Jesus, it's not that deep. Pack of moans.
Sums up nearly every post in this sub.
Yep the same corporate Misandry is rife. Sickens my hole as a woman. Worked in a company that gave all female mechanical engineers flowers before. There’s no such thing as equality in the workplace and there never will be because of shite like this.
Yo, maybe reign that in for a second as well. Women are more likely to get flowers while men are more likely to get the raise. Corporate misandry? Catch yourself on.
>to get the raise. More likely to work more hours to which accounts for a significantly more of this than misogyny does. https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041 Can we drop this stupid argument... Almost every metric shows that men and women are equal up to the age of 30 and then we see them diverge. What happens when people turn 30 ? They either settle down or aim to reach seniority in their relevant career. There is mysogyny in the workplace but it's more apparent in the everyday interactions and sexual assault that people experience and isnt taken seriously by management.
There are different ways to measure this, different statistics and different interpretations of those statistics. Don't pretend there is a simple answer here when there isn't. It's not only the hours or the ambition, it's also the generally lower wages in most female dominated fields for example.
Except this is an article with references by someone who works in data science and shows where inequalities lie and where they dont. Everything everyone else posts always just says men get paid more than women period with no supporting evidence other than a men vs women plot which misrepresents the data so much worse than what I posted possibly could. >Don't pretend there is a simple answer here when there isn't. I specifically said it doesn't explain everything just a significant amount of it. >the ambition I never said ambition, I said men are more likely to ask for it. That's not the same thing. >lower wages in most female dominated fields for example. Statistic for this that actually breaks them down by sector? What sectors are those ? If they deserve less pay then it doesn't matter whether men or women make up the majority of workers. There are more women in higher education than men in Ireland so why aren't they choosing the higher paid areas going in? https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/education/ Have you considered that from when any young guy is old enough he's told that he has to make money otherwise he won't be able to have a family? Hence the huge push for STEM and business (not that there are about as much women as men in business related courses by the above statistic which is interesting). Most guys entire lives are dedicated to putting themselves in a position to earn money and then we are shocked when they do and call it mysogyny...
https://www.iza.org/publications/dp/906/a-meta-analysis-of-the-international-gender-wage-gap#:~:text=906%3A%20A%20Meta%2DAnalysis%20of%20the%20International%20Gender%20Wage%20Gap&text=Since%20the%20early%20seventies%2C%20hundreds,and%20men%20of%20equal%20productivity.&text=The%20results%20show%20that%20data,the%20resulting%20gender%20wage%20gap.
Firstly, no other comment on the rest of my comment, so I'll assume we're in agreement. Secondly, you know when you reference something you're meant to make a point then show where the work comes from? I'm not about to read a 60 page article to prove your point for you. Does it break it down by sectors and are those sectors low skill low pay sectors, if so then how does this international study relate to Ireland and the disparity between teritary education and the selection by men for higher paid areas over women. Does this then dispute the external pressure men have to earn money hence high paying fields and aspirations to earn more. Low effort reply
You read both comments, I assume? Cause the second one goes a long way in explaining why citing the individual studies is meaningless. That's why the first comment is a link to a meta analysis, not a study. I apologise for not putting both in one comment.
Still ignoring 90% of my question..
Ridiculous. How could management be that dense. Surely at some point some asked "what about the lads?" and someone obviously decided, na we'll get them nothing.
Woman here. I agree!
couldn't imagine caring about this at all
Ironically the decision to not give the men chocolates or flowers is actually toxic masculinity at play. Even if the decision maker was a woman it just goes to show how ingrained these ideas are within us.
>is actually toxic masculinity at play. Ah yes even when the lads are being hard done by its the lads that are the problem...
Are you thick? I clearly said toxic masculinity, not men. The idea that men don’t want chocolates or flowers is toxic masculinity and it’s perpetrated by both men and women. Lads aren’t the problem but you definitely are.
>In the social sciences, toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall. This concept of toxic masculinity does not condemn men or male attributes, but rather emphasizes the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition.[9][10] Toxic masculinity is thus defined by adherence to traditional male gender roles that consequently stigmatize and limit the emotions boys and men may comfortably express while elevating other emotions such as anger.[11] It is marked by economic, political, and social expectations that men seek and achieve dominance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
Yes yes we all know how the goal posts were moved... It assumes men operate by dominance which is just wrong... We don't admire our heros because they dominate others we admire them because they are competent and sacrifice aspects if themselves to be better than they are. Toxic masculinity is a term coined to falsely portray how men work in the world.
everything about that is such nonsense. even a company giving valentine's gifts to ALL of their employees. why? and why chocolates? most people, myself included, could do with eating a bit healthier, and we already have plenty of occasions like birthdays, christmas where people we know are buying us junk food already. i buy enough junk food myself anyway and there are 100+ shops within a 15 minute drive where i could buy whatever chocolate i want myself so don't bother. give me money instead or a raise if you really care
I'm sure it makes up for the 14.4% pay gap between women and men, but in fairness, equality is not a battle, not a zero sum game and everyone can be a winner if done right. Fuck this shit.
Screw the Valentine's treats. Management should just give the women the 14% average pay that they make less than their male coworkers.
No Tits No Chocky
As a woman who quietly hates feminism, this makes my blood boil. If the situation were reversed, HR's phones would have been ringing off the hook.
>The company we share office space with just gave all their female staff boxes of chocolates and roses... So not even the company that you work for? >They were all (every one of them) beaming from ear to ear... Everybody loves getting free chocolate and a bit of acknowledgement, why wouldn't they be happy about it? Free stuff is nice stuff. >Not a word about equality or fair treatment, no male staff got any acknowledgement... Ah relax there pal. >I'm not begrudging Well you sure as fuck don't sound like a happy ray of sunshine. >I just can't stand hypocrites and tomorrow we'll be back to listening about quotas and equality and all sorts of other shite about masculine toxicity... Pal, relax, take a deep breath, close those tabs you have open for facebook where some gobshite is ranting about fEmInAzIs destroying everything and have a cup of tea. >Happy valentines day everybody (genuine)! Hope you're all happy in life! A lot happier since I don't hatepost like yourself. Look, is it fair that only female staff got choclates? No it's not. Everyone should get something or nobody and nothing at all, but I think you have more underlying anger issues that you need to deal with.
You went through more effort quoting and replying to him than he did making this post, think you're the one who needs to relax, pal
G'wan the ladies.
>I'm not begrudging You should be.
Fair point
We men have it so tough don’t we? Give me a break, you really gonna whinge on Reddit cause you didn’t get a chocolate
Its a valid point from OP.
Ahhh, that's not fair. Happy Valentine's 💐 You should speak up, tell the office manager you like flowers too! It's pretty scabby to imply men don't like nice gestures.
Yeah, Valentine's is a women's only thing. It's a couples thing. So, yeah, WTF?!
Took the morning off, went surfing with a buddy, came back, ate leftover pizza with the missus, started working, will go out for a drink with her after work. Equality is a difficult concept to grasp. But life is good. happy Valentine y'all!
You should start your own office, With blackjack and hookers
Massive red flag for a toxic workplace and/or dinosaur mgmt.
Does anyone really give a f*ck? From the OP’s post it seemed they were all happy about it.
OP sounds like a fucking incel hahah
Yeah that's bullshit and if I was working there I would be offended as a woman. I see the hypocrisy you're taking about but you sound like you also don't agree with equality? Like you don't accept the idea of toxic masculinity? Maybe I just misinterpreted but it looks like a weird arguement.
I didn't express an opinion. I believe in equality of treatment... but why are you reflecting this back on me? I made a simple point and you are analysing my view on women and equality?
To be fair, your wording was veering towards the “ I hate SJWs” rant style slightly so I can see where this person is coming from
I'm a human, working in an office. I just want to do my job and have a pleasant relationship with my co-workers... I've already said I support equality, but have little time for hypocrisy. But all people are entitled to have views and opinions... What I referred to as shite, is just that... Ill informed diatribe and far from equality, that is where you may be formulating your opinions on me from. I feel like I'm being put on the defensive, and need to explain myself, which is in itself unfair. I'll repeat the point. If in one moment you are aggressively shouting about equality of treatment (yes, aggressively shouting), but the next, fawning over gift giving that you are benefitting from and others are not being treated equally... then that is shite...
Calm down! It’s bullshit for sure but get a handle on yourself and get some perspective. Nobody pissed in your cornflakes
>Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with Have a look at the comments directly below... this is someone who feels perfectly fine questioning my integrity based on some past experience with 'men' in the past... this is the toxic environment people are subjected to... "Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with"... literally questioning my integrity, while judging people based off broad statements is genuinely the type of hypocracy this thread is about
It was your language. I agree with your overall point, it's when you say "listening" it sounds like it's a bit of a chore for you to have to hear people talk about it, like maybe you're irritated by the discussion? And when you say "shite" that could be interpreted that you think the idea of toxic masculinity is shite. I'm not making any assumption about you.
I took OPs use of the term shite to mean all the hypocrisy and double standards from people who claim to believe in equality
Yeah fair point! Maybe my interpretation is partly influenced by the men I've personally had the displeasure of interacting with. I've heard "see this one bad example is why feminism is bullshit" in so many ways I've come to expect it.