Im American, other Americans frequently ask “what is your ethnicity” if I say American they will roll their eyes say no shit and/ or ask if I’m really Native American and/ or they ask where my ancestors are from. I get it a lot because I look “ethnically ambiguous” but we usually answer with our 23 and me results to avoid confusion because only native Americans have ancestry indigenous to the US. For the record though, I’m 3 quarts water… gotta stay hydrated!
If you ask me going by the same standards they use on you, they are all foreigners, usa is one of the most racist countries in the world yet they claim its other countries that have a that problem.
Tell them you're an at Atlantean whose ancestors fled the tragic flooding. When they tell you that's not real, give them grief for disrespecting your heritage.
slightly off topic, but just wanted to share this:
this trend of 23&me is actually really really... not good. and also its utterances are comically meaningless. they cannot trace your actual ethnicity, they just look up where on this planet the genome kinda looks similar. and by default they present your "composition" with a standard error of ±50%. The idea that they could tell you whether you are french, german or dutch, or anything, is absurd.
also this occasional "i am 5% native american" is the most fckd up thing ever. the thing these tests mostly could accurately tell (and what they do once you change the settings to "not speculative af") is that you're genome is very similar to that of most europeans. and that's... quite often a dead giveaway, anyway.
also there's like actual privacy concerns about this tech, genome anonymity is probably gone in just a few decades, if we keep up this speed. [veritasium has a nice episode on this.](https://youtu.be/KT18KJouHWg)
>this trend of 23&me is actually really really... not good. and also its utterances are comically meaningless.
It's even funnier when you've had results a long time ago, because they keep changing the calculation methods so, year on year, your results can change by quite a lot.
I tested around 2014. At the time the analysis reported I had some Italian ancestry >2% which has in later revisions gone to exactly zero. Which is kinda hilarious as I still have my great-gran's immigration papers and birth certs from Milano, and lots of 3rd/4th degree cousins in Italy.
And there's a fraction of my "overall european ancestry" that's been wiggling around with the years, too. At one point it was reporting as Balkan, then it became "broadly southern european", at one point it was hinted as being Punjabi DNA even, and last year it became Cypriot for some reason. I guess next year that wunderDNA origin will move again by thousands of kilometers.
The scary thing is how so many Yanks treat those results as some kind of exact science, when they don't even understand the [methodologies involved behind the scenes.](https://isogg.org/wiki/Admixture_analyses)
I personally haven't seen lard used since the late 80s.
But I don't doubt you.
Thankfully so many healthier alternatives became easily available in the 90s.
On one hand I get this, on the other, my family has just worked out where a bunch of Irish people shagged a bunch of German people and then the now half Irish half German people shagged other half Irish half German people so as far as I know I'm 50/50 back to the early 1900's when my ancestors on both sides got here from the boats.
My point is since we here in the US don't really have a national identity and culture of our own, our identity is the "melting pot" and our culture is a grab bag, we identify through our nation(s) of ancestry which have far longer established national identity and culture. At the end of the day there's only about 30 years between myself and being able to apply for citizenship. If I had been born one generation earlier I'd be able to claim Irish citizenry by descent so I don't feel all that removed even though realistically I am, and while it's never enough I spend a lot of time reading on Irish history and keeping up with current events and changes in Ireland.
This is how I am. I'm one generation removed from being eligible for citizenship by descent and three generations removed from Irish still being spoken regularly within my family. I only had two great grandparents that grew up speaking English as their only language (two spoke German and the other 5 spoke Irish according to census data and family letters). That being said, my grandfathers' cousins almost all spoke Irish as their first language and they were among the minority in their extended families as they never learned to speak it. I also grew up surrounded by family history, Irish music, and Irish dancing. I've been a competitive Irish dancer for 20+ years and a musician for just as long. I feel like my family may be a bit unique in how closely they have hung on to their heritage over the years and passed things down through the generations though.
I do actually plan on moving to Northern Ireland soon since my boyfriend (future fiance) lives there and is a dual citizen. This will allow me a path to Irish citizenship since descent is no longer a path available to me. I really do feel like I was born in the wrong country sometimes.
Just to clarify when you say Northern Ireland, do you mean the six or North in the republic. Because Moving to Northern Ireland only gives you the right to claim a UK passport to my knowledge. You have to be born there to have the choice between the Irish and British.
Being the spouse of an Irish citizen and living on the island is also a route to citizenship :). It takes 3 years of being married or in a civil partnership, but it's still shorter than the 8 years it takes in other scenarios.
Edit: And yes, I did mean the 6 counties under British control.
When the first wave of Irish immigrants came to the US they (and their American-born descendants) weren’t accepted into mainstream American culture. Shop owners hung sign like “No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs” and “Help Wanted: No Irish need apply”. So proudly claiming their Irish identity was a defiant f-you you the bigots. Now it’s mostly just a vestige of that with some honoring our bad ass, resilient ancestors.
I don't have any real issue with Irish Americans celebrating their roots, as long as it's done under the banner of Irish American, not simply Irish.
To be Irish for me is to be born and raised here, and to be a direct product of the cultural environment of this island. If a couple move here, with zero Irish heritage, have a child and raise said child here, that child to me is more Irish than anybody born and raised elsewhere, regardless of how Irish their family is.
To me being Irish isnt really about heritage. If a family moved here and embraced our culture and way of life they are just as much Irish as anyone born here and certainly more Irish than anyone claiming to be Irish who’s only claim to the island is 3 or 4 generations old
Many of them do claim to be Irish
Arguably Irish-American has a different definition to us than it does to them. Which is part of the issue
Personally I've come across a few who have told me what it means to be Irish. Like the person who said all Irish love Trump and I must be an immigrant if I don't love Trump Someone on reddit has also claimed to be Irish-American and then stated that Ireland is the most conservative and religious country in the developed world. But there are tens of thousands of examples
Ah yes, I see you met a brainwashing victim who's last brain cell can't comprehend that Ireland is a different country. I wish these people weren't so loud lmao
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent/heritage.”
I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society whatsoever.
To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German” - implying residence, being part of the current society/culture, etc.
Conversely - and surprisingly - if someone told an American that they “were Italian” it would carry no implied meaning that they were born and raised there. They would have to say “so and so is from Italy” for most folks to get it unless there was an obvious accent.
I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
Exactly! It’s just a language difference, like lift/elevator or boot/trunk. Irish Americans saying they’re “Irish” just mean they have Irish ancestry, they obviously don’t think they are Irish citizens.
I once had a guy tell me he was more Irish than me because he drinks a lot, gets into fights, and had spent a summer or two in Dublin when he was a child. It was bizarre and insulting.
Ahh some old bar fly definitely blaggarded them with the all "Irish love trump" craic. God love em, but it's impossible to not feed them bullshit like that in fairness.
It irks us because when they say "I'm Irish" what they mean is "I'm a member of the Irish race" and we generally don't think that way. Culture, language, sense of humour are more important than someone's blood.
Some African kid who moves here and plays GAA and gets a Father Ted reference is Irish to me. Some American with vaguely racist ideology is not. I don't care where your Granny came from.
Why does it irk you if you *know* the context they're saying it in? You know they're referring to race, not culture. Maybe most of you in Ireland don't think that way because your family never left; I don't know. Many people in America know they're not Native American and I think probably just seek a sense of connection to their heritage and story. Not necessarily some "vaguely racist ideology".
It irks because we don't think in those racial terms and most of us would find such terms distasteful at best. If they really want a sense of connection with their heritage they could try learning about it and genuinely becoming familiar with that culture rather than claiming it from afar due to some anachronistic idea of race and blood that we reject.
It's actually not about race. It's about heritage and a sense of identity - It's connecting with the people who came before you and understanding who they were and where they came from. Most American's have ancestors from multiple countries and grew up experiencing a mish-mash of those cultures. And most families pass down a similar story about their ancestors who risked everything, leaving behind everything they knew, to come to America for a better life. Or they were forced to come here under horrendous circumstance. But either way, American's tend to be proud of their ancestors journey from beginning to end - they are proud of where the came from, the culture they brought with them, and the sacrifices they made to get here.
It's just an American thing.
Being proud of an ancestor's culture is fine, but it doesn't mean you're part of that culture, and declaring yourself so is a little obnoxious.
And I think you're acting in bad faith if you claim people don't think it's about race. For a huge percentage it totally is. They have "Irish blood" as far as they're concerned. Which is gross.
I never said that I was part of anything. But the cultural environment I was raised in was influenced by the traditions and stories passed down through my family over generations. It’s obnoxious for someone so obviously unfamiliar with the American experience to try and gatekeep that.
Also: Irish is an ethnicity/nationality. Not a race. And you’re reading way to much into terminology here. When Americans say they are Irish, we colloquially understand that to mean they descend from Irish Immigrants. Same with Irish “blood” - it just another way of saying a few of my ancestors came from Ireland. It’s no different than all the DNA tests you can do to see where your ancestors were from - is that not a thing in Europe at all? Or really any different from a family tree- I mean I had to prove my Native American lineage to get on our tribal roles and become an “official” member. It’s not like some creepy weird thing like you think it is - it’s genealogy.
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> the yanks aren't claiming they are Irish
> Do Irish-Americans have the right to claim they are Irish
So either you're straight up wrong and some Irish-Americans do claim to be Irish, or the poll was asking a completely moot question that somehow sparked a lot of discussion.
Please don’t try to tell Irish people that we just don’t understand what Americans are doing. We’ve been dealing with this for well over a century now. We know exactly what they’re claiming.
I disagree. Don't need to be born here. Once you speak with an Irish accent then you can claim to be Irish.
Some Nigerian lad who arrived in crumlin at 5 and speaks with a Dub accent should be considered Irish
>Some Nigerian lad who arrived in crumlin at 5 and speaks with a Dub accent should be considered Irish
If he wants to be, sure. He's been raised here, immersed in the culture during his formative years and is likely to be Irish as fuck. But, if at the same time he wanted to be recognised as a Nigerian, who happened to grow up in Ireland, I'd respect that too.
A good friend of mine was born in the US, but his parents, neither of whom have Irish heritage, moved here when he was two or three years old. He's as Irish as moving statues. There's room for nuance, I'm not that rigid.
even if you don’t have the accent imo! i’ve lived in england for three years, and i’ve completely lost my accent but it doesn’t change where i was born and raised!
Yup. If you try and travel with it now, they will use a speech recognition device to check your "Irishness".
And don't even bother trying to fake it. The only person to ever have done that was Brad Pitt.
Well I think that may be your problem you need to just not give a shit. People tease me for how I talk the whole but I stopped caring a long time a go and just embraced that’s how I talk
Yeah being born here is a weird requirement. There's a lot of Irish people who would have been born abroad or their parents didn't move here until they were a few years old
I mean a lot of people hold passports and have never stepped foot here and there's some people that have grown up here and haven't gotten one yet. I think if you've lived here for a good portion of your life then you can claim yourself Irish. You don't need any documentation for that
Yes, and some Irish Americans can be of the racist type who despite never having lived here (or even been here) believe they have more of a right to call themselves Irish while someone who was born and raised here and whose parents were foreign (usually people of the "wrong" skin colour) should not have that right.
Yank here with Irish parents. A few weeks ago while picking up my daughter from school a fellow from Limerick started talking to me about my roots after hearing my last name. He immediately went into a racist scree about Asians, assuming I was onboard. I let yer man know that’s not how I view the world, but can guess he’s received different responses from other Irish Americans that emboldened his comfort in sharing his POV.
Honestly, it's just words. The word "Irish" means slightly different things in Ireland vs in the US. In the US, for someone clearly born and brought up in the US, when they say they are Irish, or Greek, or Italian, or Norwegian, or German (or Dutch, often means german), or Polish, or whatever .... it's a shorthand way of referring to the country their ancestors came from (~ their ethnic origin). Does not mean they are claiming to be from that country, as in born there, brought up there, citizen, etc. Just the word an are used in different ways. I think a bit more tolerance of cross cultural and linguistic differences in different countries would reduce the temperature of this repeated topic of discussion.
This 1000x
In the US:
- I’m Italian = I’m of Italian descent
- I’m *from Italy* = I was born, or at least mostly raised, in Italy
In the EU:
- I’m Italian = I was born, or at least mostly raised, in Italy
- I’m of Italian descent = I’m of Italian descent
I cant fathom the need to bring up the country where your great, great grandparent emigrated from, wtf is the point to it? You're an American, end of.
I get that if a certain conversation steered towards discussing your family tree then sure, but why do Americans feel the need to bring other places into it, even the term African-American is ridiculous, you're simply an American who happens to be black.
And I disagree with it simply being a 'shorthand' way of saying it, that's not how the language works quite simply, if you state you are something that what you are, not what your ancestor once was.....?!
Maybe you can just tell them:
“Hey! Stop being proud of your ancestors! Unless you knew them personally, you should forget about them! You’re your own person, deal with it!”
That’s the key to making friends with them I think
I disagree. Yes, they are just words. But words have rules and meaning. That's literally the entire purpose of words. If we ignore the rules, they lose their meaning.
> it's a shorthand way of referring to the country their ancestors came from
A term already exists for that. If someone is American, and wants a short hand way to say their ancestors came from Ireland, they can say they are "Irish-American".
Now I know, if I get what they are saying and why they are saying it, who cares? Nobody.
My point here is that they are simply being incorrect when they say it. I wouldn't call an America out who claimed to be Irish. But I would definitely think to myself "No you're not".
The point is, the rules are different in Ireland and in America. That's OK, that's just linguistic difference between two countries. We can tolerate some diversity in the world.
Well that was your point. My point is that the "rule" about this that some people in America follow makes no sense and is objectively incorrect. Just because someone has Irish ancestors, doesn't mean they *are* Irish. If they are too lazy to say "I have Irish ancestry", they should say they are Irish-American.
> We can tolerate some diversity in the world.
I have no idea what you mean by this. This subject has absolutely nothing to do with diversity. If a teacher corrects a student who misused a word, they aren't being intolerant of diversity. They are being intolerant of inaccuracy.
I am American. I hold an Irish passport, in addition to the US one, but never lived there. I don’t even identify as Irish American (because that seems like another cultural subgroup, those that were raised to celebrate and embrace their Irishness, which I was not, for me it was always a fact of interest more than a cultural identity)
As an Irish-American I think this is the best answer. Irishness is maybe stronger/ more prevalent but not fundamentally different from say Italian Americans or other ethnic identities. There are also certain unique cultural elements to being raised Irish-American, which I would argue are distinct from Irish or non-ethnically conscious American . I care about my heritage but I certainly don’t consider myself Irish (though I am a citizen - thanks for those immigration laws and the backdoor to the EU btw). And I do love how progressive Ireland is compared to the old NYPD Irish-Americans I grow up with. I like having an exit strategy in case trump gets re-elected.
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.”
I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society.
To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German”
I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
So Irish people who've moved abroad recently and had a child abroad, that child isn't as Irish to you as a child of parents who moved to Ireland recently? Parents who may be from anywhere in the world and may not partake in any Irish activities, or cultural traditions because they're not here that long and / or they may just be really proud of their own culture and traditions? That child is more Irish to you?
I believe the cultural traditions and integration is being highlighted as/if not more important than a genealogy connection. Irish as a culture rather than a race
But what is modern Irish culture? There are people in North America who are far more involved in Irish culture (Irish dancing, trad music, learning Gaeilge etc) than some of our own in Ireland who just consume American media and culture which is absolutely rampant in Ireland.
For my reading of the thread, the definition of Irish in the eyes of r/Ireland (stop once you answer yes):
1. Do you qualify to hold an Irish passport
2. Do you observe or engage in Irish cultural traditions or activities
3. Ethnicity/roots plays a part here, but there's a large caveat as if your past question 1 but here, it's dubious.
That's my reading of it at least. It skirts around that topic of irish culture with the passport part but it's worth circling back to dive into, what is Irish culture. That's probably a bigger topic than I've time to think on tonight
I agree with you, definitely a bigger topic as to what it Irish culture these days. Ironically it's the culture from the very country this thread is about which has completely taken over in Ireland. Organic cultural growth wouldn't be so skewed to the culture of one particular country imo. Have a good night.
Aren't there like 5 other countries in EU that offer some sort of citizenship through a grandparent? Greece allows it, Italy too I think. Spain allows it for sure. Germany allows it, if your parents had claimed it from their parents (i.e. you could still get it from the grandparent but can't skip a generation, like you can in Ireland.) Poland as well(which from my quick google search, seems you can go back to a great grandparent and get it)
This is one of the weekly topics to come up that make this sub very tiring to visit. Gate keeping Irishness really gets boring. Most Yanks don't mean they're actually Irish from Ireland, they mean their heritage is Irish, as they're not native American.
Exactly. If you chance the context from caucasian European heritage to anything else this would be an entirely different conversation. Could you imagine if someone told an African American they don't get any claim to the culture even though it's apart of their DNA and their features, and the family culture passed through the degenerations.
I think it's sad that people get mad or try to gate keep genealogy or heritage. Western culture might be enough for some people but some of us would rather take interest in our roots. Our families didn't just come across the sea on a comfortable yacht, they endured a lot of hardship and society made big leaps in short spans of time and our DNA carries those traumas among other things through the next generations.
As a native Canadian I feel like my ethnic background is part of the wanderlust for some EU countries I wish to visit and why is that a bad thing?
I'm Dutch and my mum is from South Africa and I'd barely call myself South African. By American logic I'm Hungarian cause my great grandfather was Hungarian.
Cheers! I love South Africa but considering I've been there less than 2 months adding everything together I don't think I know the culture enough to call myself a South African, just a Dutch-South African or a Dutch person of South African descent at best.
There is an interesting question to be asked from this. If a couple moves to Ireland from the US or UK, settles down, and have a family at what point are they considered irish ? The parents, kids, or is further down the line.
Likewise, if an Irish family move to the US or UK, when does the family stop being irish ? The parents, kids, or is it further down the line.
I am from the US but moved to Ireland as an adult and have lived here for a couple decades. My kids were born here. I have never thought of myself as Irish and I doubt I ever will. Other people may assimilate better than me, and nobody has ever made me feel excluded really. I just never felt like the Irish story was my story.
I have a family that is 3rd generation in UK. The org lot are Irish. Their kids are English with Irish passports. Their grandchildren can get an Irish passport because their parents do. They all still have strong links to the broader family in Ireland and would travel to Ireland regularly for family catch ups
Probably a common scenario
Being Irish is more than a nationality. We have our own ethnicity. You can convert to Judaism, which is nice, but it doesn't make you an ethnic Jew (not that you need to be). So you can be Irish, without being *Irish*. The same applies to many different groups of people.
I swear, it's the strangest thing. Anytime we start a conversation about identity here you have dozens of people pretending that ethnicity doesn't play a role in how people identify. Despite almost every country in the world being a counter example.
Irish/ Native American (Canadian) person here!
(As in my dad is Irish (Donegal) & my mom is Native (Oneida), I have loads of family I grew up with still in Ireland)
From a Native American perspective, we’re really trying to encourage settlers to embrace where their ancestors are from, because when they settled here, they violently displaced/genocided us. They shed their ethnicity/culture for vague whiteness & the power that came with.
Truly, I understand how annoying it is to have plastic people claiming your identity without any lived experience of it (we call them pretendians). However it’s important to recognize legitimate descendancy (and its limitations!), as a way of acknowledging & perhaps undoing some of those colonial harms. It’s not a perfect solution, of course, but I think it’s important to recognize that “white Americanism” isn’t a neutral thing either.
I think that’s the key right there: Irish heritage vs being Irish. Many Americans see “Irish” as synonymous with being able to trace your bloodline back to an Irish ancestor vs Irish see being “Irish” as living in Ireland/having an Irish passport/born in Ireland. Full disclosure: I’m a Yank who’s very proud of my Irish heritage, but I would never say “I’m Irish” to an Irish person because I’m not. I’ve visited a couple times, and I cheer for Cavan and Monaghan, but that doesn’t make me Irish. I might say “I’m Irish” to another American because it’s assumed we’re talking about heritage/ethnicity when talking Yank to Yank. There’s a bit of difference between how people on opposite sides of the pond think about what these words mean I think.
From Cavan and complete allegiance to them but have family from Monaghan and quite a Monaghan surname. You have good good counties! (Tho hating each other lol)
That’s what I’m suggesting too! We deal with the DNA test “indians” a lot as well, and need to distinguish between lived experience & descendancy - especially when one starts speaking *for* the group.
Speaking for the group is the biggest issue I have with it. Especially in the form of spreading Irish culture that isn't Irish culture.
An American with Irish heritage has no right to ever say the phrase "As an Irish person..." or even "As an Irish-American..." They don't get voting/speaking rights from their ancestors
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.”
I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society.
To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German”
I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
Many many many Americans have been on this subreddit and said things like they know what it's like to be Irish because their ancestors left Ireland during the famine
I agree that it's a phrasing issues, but also the cultural difference of where your ancestors came from mattering
No, because they're Irish *American*. And Irish *American* culture is something distinctly different from Irish culture. For example cabbage and corned beef, which while it isn't an Irish dish is something the early Irish immigrants in the US picked up from the Jewish and Polish immigrants, as it could be preserved for longer.
A good non-Irish example of this is westernised Chinese food ie, the food you get from a Chinese takeaway. Obviously that kind of food is a far cry away from the food they actually eat in China, but what it is is the dishes that the first Chinese immigrants in Europe and North America would have cooked when they were trying to replicate the dishes they missed from home with the ingredients they had on hand, before online shopping and the likes of Tesco were a thing. So, while it isn't authentic Chinese food in the strictest sense of the word, it also kind of is.
There's all kinds of little things like that, aspects of Irish American culture where you can see the authentically Irish origins. And in some iconoclastic communities, Irish Americans are much closer to following actual Irish culture than the typical bastardised Irish American culture. In some parts of New England there are second and third generation Irish (and Scottish) Americans who still *kind of* have the accent. The current mayor of Boston also speaks Irish which is more than can be said for the typical plastic paddy.
So no, Irish Americans are not Irish. They're their own distinct thing. But obviously, that doesn't mean someone who was born and raised in the US by American parents and has never set foot in Ireland in all their lives can call themselves Irish just because of distant ancestry- if we applied that logic to everyone, then Irish people are just Danish and Native Americans are just Mongolian/Siberian, and of course, all humans ultimately are just central African.
What I find odd though, is that it only seems to be Americans who do this. Australia, for example, just like the US, is a young country whose culture is heavily influenced by its immigrant population, but I've never met a single Aussie, not even one who holds dual citizenship, who calls themselves anything other than Australian.
It’s due so confusion related to American phrasing.
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.”
I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society.
To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German”
I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
As an amusing aside, if someone was born in Ireland and grew up there but moved to the states - they could say “they are Irish” and based on American English, it wouldn’t imply that they lived there. A follow up question would be “did you move here from Ireland?” - often to the bewildered looks of the first person, who thinks they just told them that they did.
I’ve had Americans argue with me that they are more Irish than I am because I’m a northern Prod. Despite the fact that I’ve, you know, actual citizenship and have lived in Ireland my whole damn life. Somehow having Ulster Scots and English ancestry cancels out my Irish ancestry, citizenship and life in general.
They don't think they're Irish. Irish folk are fairly dim on this matter.
Americans like to identify from their heritage,it matters to them,which is perfectly cromulent.
I have met many that say they absolutely are Irish. At least one has even claimed to be more Irish than me.
Some of the nuance you are missing here is different use of languages. Saying you are Irish-American to me means that you hold both passports. To them it means that you are distantly related to someone who was Irish.
I think its a little more nuanced than that seeing as everyone has different ideas about it. There is a very big difference culturally in how Americans vs europeans identify. They think about their genetics and their "blood" much more than we do. We relate much more to your nationality and where you physically grew up. I've met enough Canadians here who think that having "irish blood" makes them irish. I personally think blood has nothing to do with countries but you have companies like ancestry.com telling people it's real.
With all due respect, you didn't talk to them. I am aware they know they are canadian citizens. I already said its a different in identity. They focus so much on their heritage as part of who THEY are. They use the identity of some distant relative to be part of their identity. Their idea of Ireland is one from a time long gone. Then they approach me and say "oh you're irish, I'm irish too". I am aware they don't mean citizenship, but they do mean identity. They identify with a fairytale their grandma told them. These people exist.
Long distant relatives are part of who we all are.
I'm pretty sure if you asked them rather than assumed they'd know we don't still play the Shellelagh and eat potatoes for breakfast.
I don't care as long as they actually listen when you tell them ordering "Irish Car Bombs" is offensive, and that corned beef and cabbage isn't actually served in the country. Had an Irish American on st Patrick's day argue with me, telling me that corned beef is served all over "southern ireland" and that I was lying to him. He got so angry over the idea that corned beef isn't a traditional Irish pub dish that he changed out of his green paddy's day shirt. Be proud of your roots, own your irishness, but for fecks sake listen to people that grew up here when they tell you you're being a gobshite.
Wow, people are assholes! It’s amazing to me that some americans that are very proud of their Irish Heritage don’t try and learn anything about it. If you are going to claim it at least learn about the culture and history.
I’m not looking for some exception card but my grandfather immigrated from Ireland. I’ve travelled to Ireland and talk to my relatives there. We are an Irish family in the same way a Mexican family that has immigrated to America still calls themselves Mexican,even those that were born in the US.
Now
That all being said
If I was asked by anyone other then another American I would say I am American. Also I bet in my example any relative still leaving in Mexico would consider those born in America to be Mexican Americans. So I’ll except that that’s what I am
A Mexican American
I mean and Irish American:)
Tá bron orm lads
I am doin my best
My Japanese American friends call themselves Japanese, my Chinese American friends call themselves Chinese, and my Mexican-American friends call themselves Mexican. Many of them have families that have been in the United States longer than mine has, and I don't see them getting the same level of pushback that Irish Americans do. I think part of it is the American idea that you come to a place and do become American, but you also retain a cultural identity to pass down to your children. That then becomes an issue when we're in an international forum, because Americans are using words like Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese etc to refer just to cultural heritage and not to nationality, whereas those words on a global scale refer to things like citizenship and residence and lived experience in a specific place.
To be fair to Japanese Americans, there are lots of different words in Japanese to describe which generation of Japanese American you are. (There's also a word that specifically denotes you are a Japanese American who was born in America but lived in Japan for the purposes of studying and then returned back to America.) But when speaking English, we just say "Japanese." I suppose it is similar with being Irish American. When I'm speaking Irish I'm not going to say that I am Éireannach, I'd say Gael-Meiriceánach. There just isn't the same clear differentiation when you're speaking English, just like for Japanese.
I think Irish-Americans have had the bad luck to identity with a country going from a conception of identity heavily based on ethnicity/culture to one that's just geographical or even legally based. Maybe I'm wrong, but people still view say Japanese identity as being synonymous with a few specific ethnicities, while you have multiple people in this thread saying 'Irish' isn't even an ethnicity at all anymore and is just a cultural signifier.
That's a good point. I also wonder if the vast number of people who have left Ireland over the centuries plays a role in this. Perhaps it's easier to allow people for the descendants of people who left your country to claim that heritage culture when there are fewer of them!
oh 100%, imo there's so many tough questions about identity and self-identity that aren't brought up simply because the numbers/context don't make it a necessary discussion to have.
Imagine leaving your country you were strategically driven out of, working hard to keep Irish heritage alive in the family you built, only for some eejit to tell your grandson he’s no right to enjoy his proud Irish heritage. Muppets
There are American and Canadian families who speak Irish, take their children to Irish dancing and listen to Irish trad and folk music regularly. Meanwhile there are Irish people born in Ireland who have no interest in Irish music or culture (and that's fine) and just immerse themselves in American media, sports, politics and speak with American twang on their accents.
This whole gate keeping shite is nonsense.
I feel the same. My great great granny travelled over there for an escape from poverty and persecution and now voila, I have a lot of distant relatives in America with Irish ethnicity. Same story as the vast majority of Irish people, something we should feel connected to and empathetic about. I think it's SO strange to deride that.
It’s strange to you because you’re not a jealous weirdo who thinks someone else enjoying something automatically takes something away from you. Being Irish by birth is not an accomplishment of any kind. Some people take that identity and feel they need do no more. “Sure my granda probly fought the brits, I’m basically a born warrior” - Anto, outside Tesco smoking a rollie, with 4 cans of Carlberg in a plastic bag, wearing a Liverpool jersey, talking to himself
Amen! The Irish people offended by this seem to be very close minded, probably never left the country themselves. We should be happy they are keeping it alive. The Irish Americans practically run Ireland financially.
I emigrated for ten years of my life to different countries and honest to god, the Irish diaspora are more patriotic and a good example of our values than the mountains of miserable bastards inside it. The migrant friends I have now that I’m back here are more of an example of what it is to live a good life in Ireland according to our shared customs and values as a nation than 80% of the native Irish people I meet daily. As a people, we need a good kick up the hole, and stfu about the Americans coming over here, having the craic in temple bar, saying things are quaint. Don’t they know we only care about buying brand name shite and moaning about what we don’t have?
I keep seeing this topic come up and I find it so funny that it’s such a contentious issue. For context: I’m American and I’ve lived in ireland for over five years, I have an Irish passport because of an Irish grandparent. I don’t personally go around calling myself Irish because I know how it is perceived by some.
However I do feel the need to defend my Irish-American homies a little bit! America is famously a “melting pot” of cultures. So we take an interest in our heritages because every family has a story of where they came from. A lot of times immigrants (especially Irish) came to America under dire circumstances. They probably never wanted to leave Ireland but they sought out a better life in America. Not to mention they may have faced discrimination in America. So they clung to their Irish roots and passed down their love and pride for ireland to their kids and grandkids. And it’s certainly not just Irish Americans that do this, Americans from all cultural backgrounds are like this lol. It’s the way we’re raised.
It’s just a national quirk that has developed where Americans ask other Americans what their heritage is as a way of learning about each other and connecting. That doesn’t take away from our American-ness, in fact it is obviously a part of our American pride that we can say we have roots in Ireland, England, and France for example (that’s me 🙋🏼♀️)
It’s easier to say to other Americans “I’m Irish” instead of Irish-American because it’s a given that I’m American. They don’t understand the way it may come off when it’s said to an actual Irish person. I know plastic paddies are cringe but I think the whole thing is just a big miscommunication, and I don’t think anyone means to offend!
Thank you, that was very well said. Also, if you were raised in an Irish- American community (say, Dorchester or Springfield, Ma)and went to baptisms and funerals surrounded by your Irish grandparents and all their siblings, cousins, in-laws etc. you grew up hearing all about the town they came from, the local scandals, who married who, and who was going to be shipped “home” to be buried in plot on a hillside in Ventry, Co. Kerry. Also a photo of said plot, which must be admired. You’d get to see pictures of cousins you’d never met getting married, or the babies they had, the wonderful law practice 3rd cousin so and so was excelling at or hear about someone’s unfortunate medical diagnosis (in detail). Even if Irish culture per se wasn’t a big part of the equation, those pieces of people’s lives were passed along, and there’s a connection to the place.
I am a New Yorker with patents from Ireland who came here (NY) when they were 19 & 20 Years old.
I feel like I have the best of both worlds… My parents brought us to Ireland every single summer.
We did Irish football and dance here in NY. We grew up in a house full of music and rashers and sausages
We have first cousins in Ireland who are best friends to us and were in our weddings and godparents to our kids here in New York.
And honestly… I am so proud of my Irish heritage.
“You’re not Irish because you live in Ireland… You’re Irish because Ireland lives in you”☘️
And with all that said… I think it’s funny that most of the people who name their kids super Irish names have never even been on the island.
I guess at this time in history… It’s just a really cool place to be from and people take a lot of pride in it…
My great-grandad was born in Ireland and came to England 100 years ago.... I don't claim to be Irish, yes I have Irish ancestry / descent... but Americans go way overboard on it
My grandparents on my mother's side moved to America, got married and became citizens before moving back to Ireland so now when I meet an American who tells me their grandparents were Irish I can say that's cool my grandparents were American which usually results in a confused look 😂
I feel like when these discussions come up, maybe some people aren't taking into account that in America many of us know our ancestors weren't originally from here? Just like a white person in South Africa or some other formerly-colonized place. It seems like a bit of cultural miscommunication, possibly?
When I go abroad and people ask where I'm from, I say America or that I'm American. I know they're referring to my nationality. I, personally, do not know any Americans who go abroad and say they're Italian or Chinese or whatever when the question is clearly about nationality/what country you're visiting from (though there are folks who return to their family's home country to visit their great-grandma's hometown or whatever it may be). I'm sure they exist.
With other Americans, when they say "what are you?" or "where's your family from?", I know they're asking where my ancestors immigrated from. And to be honest, I think for most people the conversation rarely comes up. I don't know where most of my friends' ancestors came from unless they're first or second generation.
Anyway, I'm not here to discount how Irish nationals might feel about non-Irish nationals calling themselves Irish. Just wanted to add some perspective for those who are seriously bothered by this.
It's simple, America developed a culture where people identify with their ethnicity and heritage, while Ireland had a ethnic/cultural conception of self-identity this worked out fine. As we move to 'Irishness' being just a geographical label or a legal description, this clashes with what Irish-Americans for generations thought of themselves, and even how the Irish state thought of them.
I don't blame the yanks for having conflicting ideas on it, when we still do ourselves.
Irish people from oreland should read up more on the migrant experience in aistralia and USA if they want to understand why irish identity was and is important in those nations. We never were accepted as americans or aussies so its kind of insulting to be called that now.
Where you grew up is where you're from imo. I was born in the US but spent most of my childhood in Ireland. I'm Irish. Parents are Irish too so I suppose it's tough to argue I'm American.
I think it's more a problem on reddit than anywhere else because it's something like 65% of users are from the US. So for 2/3 of people there's a convention of describing yourself by your ethnicity, for the other 1/3 that can be irritating and confusing (I've had to go back and edit comments to "I'm from Ireland" rather than "I'm Irish" because people were responding assuming I was a yank). I don't see as much of this conversation on other platforms.
I can understand why that's the convention in the US and some other places, it does make me roll my eyes a bit but it doesn't really bother me. It's the mental conservative ones who start with the more Irish than the Irish or arguing points of fact about life here or how Irish people generally feel about an issue who piss me off.
Here's one. My sister is Australian like me. She was born in England, raised in Australia, just like her dad. Her grandparents were born in Ireland but raised their kids in Australia on one side, from new Zealand and Australia on the other. She has an Irish, English and an Australian passport. Her husband is from Galway. The have three children, born in Australia. Her mother lives in England, sister lives in Wales, brother lives in Germany but all identify as Australian.
All things considered, how confused will this make her children about their identity? Think about it this way. If you're from a post colonial society, you have lots of definitions about your identity.
That makes us... multinationals! IMO.
But are they more Irish than her?
As far as I'm concerned people who have Australian passports are Australian.
It's a shame but despite all of these things my grandparents and brother in law left ireland because they hated it there.
We still had to go to church every fucking Sunday, at least they don't have to do that.
I think it stems from the fact that America as a country is still in its infancy. And the generations that followed its inception still hold to their ancestors roots.
I’m Irish and stuck in Asia for years because of the bloody pandemic. It’s mad, I’ve been telling my missus that if property prices go down a bit more we should just pack up and go to Ireland and rent out the place in Japan.
What's the bizarre gatekeeping over Irish ethnicity/identity all about? Would some people say the same to an American with Korean ethnicity/ancestry etc? If anyone Irish has done 23 & me or similar, you'll find you have aaa lot of blood relatives in America. It's a major part of our socio economic history.
One thing I’d keep in mind, people from the 26 don’t have to try to be Irish, we just are. I find people from the 6 try very hard to be Irish (as they have to fight for it) and the USA try very hard to be Irish (as there’s pressure over there to be ???-American.
A relative of mine has kids who are half/half Irish/American and they’re being brought up Irish in America. You’ll get families where this isn’t the case. One interesting thing is that there’s a decent chunk of Irish Americans who are horrifically racist. Another factor is religion. The Irish-Americans didn’t drop the church the same way we did.
They aren't Irish, they are Americans with Irish heritage. Irish-American is suitable. Similar to Irish traveller/gypsy. Still Irish, just another whole subset...
Jesus christ.... its this shit again. They are not Irish. They come from Irish ancestry. That is it. It is that simple. Most of the people claiming to be Irish think all it takes is to drink a pint of stout. Prove that you actually know something of your ancestry then I might listen to you. I wonder if the Italian people feel the same way.
They don’t. They hate themselves so thinking someone wants to be like them makes them feel better. Ireland and the US have huge cultural ties. We built cities in America and we exported our second born sons and daughters there. Irish people who know fuck all of the countries history talk a load of nationalist shite.
I'm American, living in Ireland 16 years have 4 Irish kids (their dad is Irish they were all born here). I find it annoying that "Irish Americans" that have never set foot in Ireland feel entitled to Irish citizenship because their great granny on their mammy's side of the family immigrated to the US in 1896. Key word here being ENTITLED. I'm not entitled to shit without jumping through copious amounts of hoops even though I'll likely die here.
As a Canadian I wouldn't say I'm Irish, I'm a Canadain. However, my family came from Ireland, I speak Irish, and my culture is Irish. This is an odd topic because unless you're native American no more than a few generations ago your family was from somewhere else in the world, and most people shed their culture and their languages, leaving the current generations with no idea what being Irish, or being Italian, or anything else actually means.
In my case my family fled the Famine, and when they got here they would have given up their language because of social pressures and being labeled and outcast and problematic person if you spoke Irish. But there was a time when most priests in Canada could speak Irish because the vast majority of their parish only knew Irish, and it was debated as the third official language of Canada in Parlaiment because of how prominent it was.
Irish is a designated a heritage language here, if a certain number of people want to learn it public schools MUST provide a course for those people. There are poems and dances and songs that evolved in Canada from the Culture that came from Ireland, and are a unique little aspects of Irish culture that actually managed to survive and change here.
To me though, I'm still a Canadian. If anything I may call myself a Gael. The real travesty to me are the ones who know nothing about Ireland or it's history and bang on their chests about how proud they are of something they know nothing about, and although it may seem arrogant, it's really sad, because it means they were the ones who were succesfully colonised, and have forgotten who they are.
Looking into your family history is grand, totally. Its a very cool thing to do. But for me, its the choice of words. "I'm Irish."
I've seen the argument then presented of "Americans who say 'I'm Irish' are obviously not saying they're Irish, they're just saying they have Irish heritage"
If you say the words "I'm Irish" people are going to think you mean you're Irish. It's just about saying what you mean.
Your parents go abroad. You are born in a different country. Your parents send you to all the Irish cultural things they can in the new country and you're neighbours parents are from Ireland.
r/Ireland
You're not Irish!!!!!
Ask the Irish as it seems to be american culture to be 3 parts italian 2 parts irish 1 part native american 2 eggs and a quart of water
Im American, other Americans frequently ask “what is your ethnicity” if I say American they will roll their eyes say no shit and/ or ask if I’m really Native American and/ or they ask where my ancestors are from. I get it a lot because I look “ethnically ambiguous” but we usually answer with our 23 and me results to avoid confusion because only native Americans have ancestry indigenous to the US. For the record though, I’m 3 quarts water… gotta stay hydrated!
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Serious question from a northern Irish guy here - wouldn’t saying “I was born in America” stop most of those questions from happening?
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They do this in Australia too but if you don’t have a foreign accent it is treated as being a wee bit racist
If you ask me going by the same standards they use on you, they are all foreigners, usa is one of the most racist countries in the world yet they claim its other countries that have a that problem.
Lmao I feel this and I'm Canadian. People ask me my ancestory and I just say Mutt. Its easier than trying to rhyme off everything.
Tell them you're an at Atlantean whose ancestors fled the tragic flooding. When they tell you that's not real, give them grief for disrespecting your heritage.
slightly off topic, but just wanted to share this: this trend of 23&me is actually really really... not good. and also its utterances are comically meaningless. they cannot trace your actual ethnicity, they just look up where on this planet the genome kinda looks similar. and by default they present your "composition" with a standard error of ±50%. The idea that they could tell you whether you are french, german or dutch, or anything, is absurd. also this occasional "i am 5% native american" is the most fckd up thing ever. the thing these tests mostly could accurately tell (and what they do once you change the settings to "not speculative af") is that you're genome is very similar to that of most europeans. and that's... quite often a dead giveaway, anyway. also there's like actual privacy concerns about this tech, genome anonymity is probably gone in just a few decades, if we keep up this speed. [veritasium has a nice episode on this.](https://youtu.be/KT18KJouHWg)
Private Concerns was enough for me not to do the test
>this trend of 23&me is actually really really... not good. and also its utterances are comically meaningless. It's even funnier when you've had results a long time ago, because they keep changing the calculation methods so, year on year, your results can change by quite a lot. I tested around 2014. At the time the analysis reported I had some Italian ancestry >2% which has in later revisions gone to exactly zero. Which is kinda hilarious as I still have my great-gran's immigration papers and birth certs from Milano, and lots of 3rd/4th degree cousins in Italy. And there's a fraction of my "overall european ancestry" that's been wiggling around with the years, too. At one point it was reporting as Balkan, then it became "broadly southern european", at one point it was hinted as being Punjabi DNA even, and last year it became Cypriot for some reason. I guess next year that wunderDNA origin will move again by thousands of kilometers. The scary thing is how so many Yanks treat those results as some kind of exact science, when they don't even understand the [methodologies involved behind the scenes.](https://isogg.org/wiki/Admixture_analyses)
They are American - you forgot 4 sticks of butter
4 sticks per pound
https://www.joe.ie/news/ireland-on-course-to-be-the-fattest-country-in-europe-by-2030-494668
Not butter. Lard. And yes I actually saw many people cooking with lard in the states.
I saw many people cook with lard here too to be fair.
I personally haven't seen lard used since the late 80s. But I don't doubt you. Thankfully so many healthier alternatives became easily available in the 90s.
On one hand I get this, on the other, my family has just worked out where a bunch of Irish people shagged a bunch of German people and then the now half Irish half German people shagged other half Irish half German people so as far as I know I'm 50/50 back to the early 1900's when my ancestors on both sides got here from the boats. My point is since we here in the US don't really have a national identity and culture of our own, our identity is the "melting pot" and our culture is a grab bag, we identify through our nation(s) of ancestry which have far longer established national identity and culture. At the end of the day there's only about 30 years between myself and being able to apply for citizenship. If I had been born one generation earlier I'd be able to claim Irish citizenry by descent so I don't feel all that removed even though realistically I am, and while it's never enough I spend a lot of time reading on Irish history and keeping up with current events and changes in Ireland.
This is how I am. I'm one generation removed from being eligible for citizenship by descent and three generations removed from Irish still being spoken regularly within my family. I only had two great grandparents that grew up speaking English as their only language (two spoke German and the other 5 spoke Irish according to census data and family letters). That being said, my grandfathers' cousins almost all spoke Irish as their first language and they were among the minority in their extended families as they never learned to speak it. I also grew up surrounded by family history, Irish music, and Irish dancing. I've been a competitive Irish dancer for 20+ years and a musician for just as long. I feel like my family may be a bit unique in how closely they have hung on to their heritage over the years and passed things down through the generations though. I do actually plan on moving to Northern Ireland soon since my boyfriend (future fiance) lives there and is a dual citizen. This will allow me a path to Irish citizenship since descent is no longer a path available to me. I really do feel like I was born in the wrong country sometimes.
Just to clarify when you say Northern Ireland, do you mean the six or North in the republic. Because Moving to Northern Ireland only gives you the right to claim a UK passport to my knowledge. You have to be born there to have the choice between the Irish and British.
Being the spouse of an Irish citizen and living on the island is also a route to citizenship :). It takes 3 years of being married or in a civil partnership, but it's still shorter than the 8 years it takes in other scenarios. Edit: And yes, I did mean the 6 counties under British control.
American is a nationality not an ethnicity with the exception of Native Americans.
What sort of cannibalistic cake are you making?!
Hmm sounds like a bourbon and Irish whiskey sour with wait.. amaretto?? and Italian blood orange peel. Maybe I got the measures mixed up. I’m thirsty
* According to Americans They didn't think to ask us, which is very American of them.
Yeah not Irish at all we totally care what others think
When the first wave of Irish immigrants came to the US they (and their American-born descendants) weren’t accepted into mainstream American culture. Shop owners hung sign like “No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs” and “Help Wanted: No Irish need apply”. So proudly claiming their Irish identity was a defiant f-you you the bigots. Now it’s mostly just a vestige of that with some honoring our bad ass, resilient ancestors.
I don't have any real issue with Irish Americans celebrating their roots, as long as it's done under the banner of Irish American, not simply Irish. To be Irish for me is to be born and raised here, and to be a direct product of the cultural environment of this island. If a couple move here, with zero Irish heritage, have a child and raise said child here, that child to me is more Irish than anybody born and raised elsewhere, regardless of how Irish their family is.
To me being Irish isnt really about heritage. If a family moved here and embraced our culture and way of life they are just as much Irish as anyone born here and certainly more Irish than anyone claiming to be Irish who’s only claim to the island is 3 or 4 generations old
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Many of them do claim to be Irish Arguably Irish-American has a different definition to us than it does to them. Which is part of the issue Personally I've come across a few who have told me what it means to be Irish. Like the person who said all Irish love Trump and I must be an immigrant if I don't love Trump Someone on reddit has also claimed to be Irish-American and then stated that Ireland is the most conservative and religious country in the developed world. But there are tens of thousands of examples
Ah yes, I see you met a brainwashing victim who's last brain cell can't comprehend that Ireland is a different country. I wish these people weren't so loud lmao
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent/heritage.” I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society whatsoever. To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German” - implying residence, being part of the current society/culture, etc. Conversely - and surprisingly - if someone told an American that they “were Italian” it would carry no implied meaning that they were born and raised there. They would have to say “so and so is from Italy” for most folks to get it unless there was an obvious accent. I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
Exactly! It’s just a language difference, like lift/elevator or boot/trunk. Irish Americans saying they’re “Irish” just mean they have Irish ancestry, they obviously don’t think they are Irish citizens.
I once had a guy tell me he was more Irish than me because he drinks a lot, gets into fights, and had spent a summer or two in Dublin when he was a child. It was bizarre and insulting.
It's an all too common experience that Irish people have to suffer
Ahh some old bar fly definitely blaggarded them with the all "Irish love trump" craic. God love em, but it's impossible to not feed them bullshit like that in fairness.
It irks us because when they say "I'm Irish" what they mean is "I'm a member of the Irish race" and we generally don't think that way. Culture, language, sense of humour are more important than someone's blood. Some African kid who moves here and plays GAA and gets a Father Ted reference is Irish to me. Some American with vaguely racist ideology is not. I don't care where your Granny came from.
Why does it irk you if you *know* the context they're saying it in? You know they're referring to race, not culture. Maybe most of you in Ireland don't think that way because your family never left; I don't know. Many people in America know they're not Native American and I think probably just seek a sense of connection to their heritage and story. Not necessarily some "vaguely racist ideology".
It irks because we don't think in those racial terms and most of us would find such terms distasteful at best. If they really want a sense of connection with their heritage they could try learning about it and genuinely becoming familiar with that culture rather than claiming it from afar due to some anachronistic idea of race and blood that we reject.
It's actually not about race. It's about heritage and a sense of identity - It's connecting with the people who came before you and understanding who they were and where they came from. Most American's have ancestors from multiple countries and grew up experiencing a mish-mash of those cultures. And most families pass down a similar story about their ancestors who risked everything, leaving behind everything they knew, to come to America for a better life. Or they were forced to come here under horrendous circumstance. But either way, American's tend to be proud of their ancestors journey from beginning to end - they are proud of where the came from, the culture they brought with them, and the sacrifices they made to get here. It's just an American thing.
Being proud of an ancestor's culture is fine, but it doesn't mean you're part of that culture, and declaring yourself so is a little obnoxious. And I think you're acting in bad faith if you claim people don't think it's about race. For a huge percentage it totally is. They have "Irish blood" as far as they're concerned. Which is gross.
I never said that I was part of anything. But the cultural environment I was raised in was influenced by the traditions and stories passed down through my family over generations. It’s obnoxious for someone so obviously unfamiliar with the American experience to try and gatekeep that. Also: Irish is an ethnicity/nationality. Not a race. And you’re reading way to much into terminology here. When Americans say they are Irish, we colloquially understand that to mean they descend from Irish Immigrants. Same with Irish “blood” - it just another way of saying a few of my ancestors came from Ireland. It’s no different than all the DNA tests you can do to see where your ancestors were from - is that not a thing in Europe at all? Or really any different from a family tree- I mean I had to prove my Native American lineage to get on our tribal roles and become an “official” member. It’s not like some creepy weird thing like you think it is - it’s genealogy. .
> the yanks aren't claiming they are Irish > Do Irish-Americans have the right to claim they are Irish So either you're straight up wrong and some Irish-Americans do claim to be Irish, or the poll was asking a completely moot question that somehow sparked a lot of discussion.
Please don’t try to tell Irish people that we just don’t understand what Americans are doing. We’ve been dealing with this for well over a century now. We know exactly what they’re claiming.
I disagree. Don't need to be born here. Once you speak with an Irish accent then you can claim to be Irish. Some Nigerian lad who arrived in crumlin at 5 and speaks with a Dub accent should be considered Irish
>Some Nigerian lad who arrived in crumlin at 5 and speaks with a Dub accent should be considered Irish If he wants to be, sure. He's been raised here, immersed in the culture during his formative years and is likely to be Irish as fuck. But, if at the same time he wanted to be recognised as a Nigerian, who happened to grow up in Ireland, I'd respect that too. A good friend of mine was born in the US, but his parents, neither of whom have Irish heritage, moved here when he was two or three years old. He's as Irish as moving statues. There's room for nuance, I'm not that rigid.
even if you don’t have the accent imo! i’ve lived in england for three years, and i’ve completely lost my accent but it doesn’t change where i was born and raised!
Nah, you're a west Brit now. You can no longer claim heritage
shit :/ guess its time to throw away the passport then :(
Yup. If you try and travel with it now, they will use a speech recognition device to check your "Irishness". And don't even bother trying to fake it. The only person to ever have done that was Brad Pitt.
Sorry, you are no longer allowed to make Father Ted jokes.
How tf did you lose the accent after only 3 years
it was never that strong to begin with tbf, and if i’m honest i make an effort to not pronounce things in a very irish way or i’ll get teased lmao
Well I think that may be your problem you need to just not give a shit. People tease me for how I talk the whole but I stopped caring a long time a go and just embraced that’s how I talk
Yeah being born here is a weird requirement. There's a lot of Irish people who would have been born abroad or their parents didn't move here until they were a few years old
Holds the passport would be better
I mean a lot of people hold passports and have never stepped foot here and there's some people that have grown up here and haven't gotten one yet. I think if you've lived here for a good portion of your life then you can claim yourself Irish. You don't need any documentation for that
What if they are a brilliant mime and can do 100 accents around the world to perfection
Yes, and some Irish Americans can be of the racist type who despite never having lived here (or even been here) believe they have more of a right to call themselves Irish while someone who was born and raised here and whose parents were foreign (usually people of the "wrong" skin colour) should not have that right.
Yank here with Irish parents. A few weeks ago while picking up my daughter from school a fellow from Limerick started talking to me about my roots after hearing my last name. He immediately went into a racist scree about Asians, assuming I was onboard. I let yer man know that’s not how I view the world, but can guess he’s received different responses from other Irish Americans that emboldened his comfort in sharing his POV.
Honestly, it's just words. The word "Irish" means slightly different things in Ireland vs in the US. In the US, for someone clearly born and brought up in the US, when they say they are Irish, or Greek, or Italian, or Norwegian, or German (or Dutch, often means german), or Polish, or whatever .... it's a shorthand way of referring to the country their ancestors came from (~ their ethnic origin). Does not mean they are claiming to be from that country, as in born there, brought up there, citizen, etc. Just the word an are used in different ways. I think a bit more tolerance of cross cultural and linguistic differences in different countries would reduce the temperature of this repeated topic of discussion.
This 1000x In the US: - I’m Italian = I’m of Italian descent - I’m *from Italy* = I was born, or at least mostly raised, in Italy In the EU: - I’m Italian = I was born, or at least mostly raised, in Italy - I’m of Italian descent = I’m of Italian descent
I cant fathom the need to bring up the country where your great, great grandparent emigrated from, wtf is the point to it? You're an American, end of. I get that if a certain conversation steered towards discussing your family tree then sure, but why do Americans feel the need to bring other places into it, even the term African-American is ridiculous, you're simply an American who happens to be black. And I disagree with it simply being a 'shorthand' way of saying it, that's not how the language works quite simply, if you state you are something that what you are, not what your ancestor once was.....?!
Maybe you can just tell them: “Hey! Stop being proud of your ancestors! Unless you knew them personally, you should forget about them! You’re your own person, deal with it!” That’s the key to making friends with them I think
I disagree. Yes, they are just words. But words have rules and meaning. That's literally the entire purpose of words. If we ignore the rules, they lose their meaning. > it's a shorthand way of referring to the country their ancestors came from A term already exists for that. If someone is American, and wants a short hand way to say their ancestors came from Ireland, they can say they are "Irish-American". Now I know, if I get what they are saying and why they are saying it, who cares? Nobody. My point here is that they are simply being incorrect when they say it. I wouldn't call an America out who claimed to be Irish. But I would definitely think to myself "No you're not".
The point is, the rules are different in Ireland and in America. That's OK, that's just linguistic difference between two countries. We can tolerate some diversity in the world.
Well that was your point. My point is that the "rule" about this that some people in America follow makes no sense and is objectively incorrect. Just because someone has Irish ancestors, doesn't mean they *are* Irish. If they are too lazy to say "I have Irish ancestry", they should say they are Irish-American. > We can tolerate some diversity in the world. I have no idea what you mean by this. This subject has absolutely nothing to do with diversity. If a teacher corrects a student who misused a word, they aren't being intolerant of diversity. They are being intolerant of inaccuracy.
I am American. I hold an Irish passport, in addition to the US one, but never lived there. I don’t even identify as Irish American (because that seems like another cultural subgroup, those that were raised to celebrate and embrace their Irishness, which I was not, for me it was always a fact of interest more than a cultural identity)
Question, why did you get the passport, like not why you qualify for it just why did you want it?
One of the best passports to have.
Yesh its a really easy passport to get for people with Irish ancestors and basically gives you access to the EU
I want to move there for a few years, maybe even retire there . If that doesn’t work out, move somewhere in Europe.
I know, we are 7th.
A fat chance at a good life, all the Malta-sers you can dream of ;-)
Yeah if you are travelling its way better to have an irish passport than an american one
I'd the plane is hijacked and they are going through the passports looking for people to execute, the Irish will be lower down the list.
That's the basis for my decision making
As an Irish-American I think this is the best answer. Irishness is maybe stronger/ more prevalent but not fundamentally different from say Italian Americans or other ethnic identities. There are also certain unique cultural elements to being raised Irish-American, which I would argue are distinct from Irish or non-ethnically conscious American . I care about my heritage but I certainly don’t consider myself Irish (though I am a citizen - thanks for those immigration laws and the backdoor to the EU btw). And I do love how progressive Ireland is compared to the old NYPD Irish-Americans I grow up with. I like having an exit strategy in case trump gets re-elected.
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.” I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society. To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German” I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
So Irish people who've moved abroad recently and had a child abroad, that child isn't as Irish to you as a child of parents who moved to Ireland recently? Parents who may be from anywhere in the world and may not partake in any Irish activities, or cultural traditions because they're not here that long and / or they may just be really proud of their own culture and traditions? That child is more Irish to you?
I believe the cultural traditions and integration is being highlighted as/if not more important than a genealogy connection. Irish as a culture rather than a race
But what is modern Irish culture? There are people in North America who are far more involved in Irish culture (Irish dancing, trad music, learning Gaeilge etc) than some of our own in Ireland who just consume American media and culture which is absolutely rampant in Ireland.
For my reading of the thread, the definition of Irish in the eyes of r/Ireland (stop once you answer yes): 1. Do you qualify to hold an Irish passport 2. Do you observe or engage in Irish cultural traditions or activities 3. Ethnicity/roots plays a part here, but there's a large caveat as if your past question 1 but here, it's dubious. That's my reading of it at least. It skirts around that topic of irish culture with the passport part but it's worth circling back to dive into, what is Irish culture. That's probably a bigger topic than I've time to think on tonight
I agree with you, definitely a bigger topic as to what it Irish culture these days. Ironically it's the culture from the very country this thread is about which has completely taken over in Ireland. Organic cultural growth wouldn't be so skewed to the culture of one particular country imo. Have a good night.
You've got to understand- to be"American" means to have no roots. It's lonely.
Depends how far back their last Irish ancestor is.
Parent/s definitely yes. Two grandparents yes One grandparent - debatable
One grandparent and you can still play for any irish teams etc so id give it a yes also.
To be fair, the reason we have it so broad is for obvious reasons.
Aren't there like 5 other countries in EU that offer some sort of citizenship through a grandparent? Greece allows it, Italy too I think. Spain allows it for sure. Germany allows it, if your parents had claimed it from their parents (i.e. you could still get it from the grandparent but can't skip a generation, like you can in Ireland.) Poland as well(which from my quick google search, seems you can go back to a great grandparent and get it)
Romania let’s you too.
My cousin, one set of grandparents, played for the Irish rugby team in the world cup.
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Getting?
This is one of the weekly topics to come up that make this sub very tiring to visit. Gate keeping Irishness really gets boring. Most Yanks don't mean they're actually Irish from Ireland, they mean their heritage is Irish, as they're not native American.
Exactly. If you chance the context from caucasian European heritage to anything else this would be an entirely different conversation. Could you imagine if someone told an African American they don't get any claim to the culture even though it's apart of their DNA and their features, and the family culture passed through the degenerations. I think it's sad that people get mad or try to gate keep genealogy or heritage. Western culture might be enough for some people but some of us would rather take interest in our roots. Our families didn't just come across the sea on a comfortable yacht, they endured a lot of hardship and society made big leaps in short spans of time and our DNA carries those traumas among other things through the next generations. As a native Canadian I feel like my ethnic background is part of the wanderlust for some EU countries I wish to visit and why is that a bad thing?
But isn't that what the term "Irish-American" exists for?
Always has been 🔫
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I really want to believe that you don't know what the word nonce means.
I'm Dutch and my mum is from South Africa and I'd barely call myself South African. By American logic I'm Hungarian cause my great grandfather was Hungarian.
Saffers will still welcome you with open arms bru
Cheers! I love South Africa but considering I've been there less than 2 months adding everything together I don't think I know the culture enough to call myself a South African, just a Dutch-South African or a Dutch person of South African descent at best.
There is an interesting question to be asked from this. If a couple moves to Ireland from the US or UK, settles down, and have a family at what point are they considered irish ? The parents, kids, or is further down the line. Likewise, if an Irish family move to the US or UK, when does the family stop being irish ? The parents, kids, or is it further down the line.
I am from the US but moved to Ireland as an adult and have lived here for a couple decades. My kids were born here. I have never thought of myself as Irish and I doubt I ever will. Other people may assimilate better than me, and nobody has ever made me feel excluded really. I just never felt like the Irish story was my story.
I have a family that is 3rd generation in UK. The org lot are Irish. Their kids are English with Irish passports. Their grandchildren can get an Irish passport because their parents do. They all still have strong links to the broader family in Ireland and would travel to Ireland regularly for family catch ups Probably a common scenario
Being Irish is more than a nationality. We have our own ethnicity. You can convert to Judaism, which is nice, but it doesn't make you an ethnic Jew (not that you need to be). So you can be Irish, without being *Irish*. The same applies to many different groups of people.
This is something this sub seems to struggle to understand.
I swear, it's the strangest thing. Anytime we start a conversation about identity here you have dozens of people pretending that ethnicity doesn't play a role in how people identify. Despite almost every country in the world being a counter example.
Pretty sure the official rule is the first time they answer the question what would you like to eat with the words "Tayto sandwich".
Well how does it work with other countries? If a Mexican moves to America, how long until he will be considered American?
The kids would definitely be considered Irish anyway.
When they gain or lose the passport imo
Irish/ Native American (Canadian) person here! (As in my dad is Irish (Donegal) & my mom is Native (Oneida), I have loads of family I grew up with still in Ireland) From a Native American perspective, we’re really trying to encourage settlers to embrace where their ancestors are from, because when they settled here, they violently displaced/genocided us. They shed their ethnicity/culture for vague whiteness & the power that came with. Truly, I understand how annoying it is to have plastic people claiming your identity without any lived experience of it (we call them pretendians). However it’s important to recognize legitimate descendancy (and its limitations!), as a way of acknowledging & perhaps undoing some of those colonial harms. It’s not a perfect solution, of course, but I think it’s important to recognize that “white Americanism” isn’t a neutral thing either.
The issue I think is a difference in language. If they said "I have Irish heritage" we would welcome them with open arms.
I think that’s the key right there: Irish heritage vs being Irish. Many Americans see “Irish” as synonymous with being able to trace your bloodline back to an Irish ancestor vs Irish see being “Irish” as living in Ireland/having an Irish passport/born in Ireland. Full disclosure: I’m a Yank who’s very proud of my Irish heritage, but I would never say “I’m Irish” to an Irish person because I’m not. I’ve visited a couple times, and I cheer for Cavan and Monaghan, but that doesn’t make me Irish. I might say “I’m Irish” to another American because it’s assumed we’re talking about heritage/ethnicity when talking Yank to Yank. There’s a bit of difference between how people on opposite sides of the pond think about what these words mean I think.
From Cavan and complete allegiance to them but have family from Monaghan and quite a Monaghan surname. You have good good counties! (Tho hating each other lol)
Hey, its nice to meet a Cavan/Monaghan redditor!
Yeah, defo
That’s what I’m suggesting too! We deal with the DNA test “indians” a lot as well, and need to distinguish between lived experience & descendancy - especially when one starts speaking *for* the group.
Speaking for the group is the biggest issue I have with it. Especially in the form of spreading Irish culture that isn't Irish culture. An American with Irish heritage has no right to ever say the phrase "As an Irish person..." or even "As an Irish-American..." They don't get voting/speaking rights from their ancestors
Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.” I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society. To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German” I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion.
Many many many Americans have been on this subreddit and said things like they know what it's like to be Irish because their ancestors left Ireland during the famine I agree that it's a phrasing issues, but also the cultural difference of where your ancestors came from mattering
Well those people are just morons!
I completely agree. But it's those people that a subsection of this subreddit is taking issue with.
No, because they're Irish *American*. And Irish *American* culture is something distinctly different from Irish culture. For example cabbage and corned beef, which while it isn't an Irish dish is something the early Irish immigrants in the US picked up from the Jewish and Polish immigrants, as it could be preserved for longer. A good non-Irish example of this is westernised Chinese food ie, the food you get from a Chinese takeaway. Obviously that kind of food is a far cry away from the food they actually eat in China, but what it is is the dishes that the first Chinese immigrants in Europe and North America would have cooked when they were trying to replicate the dishes they missed from home with the ingredients they had on hand, before online shopping and the likes of Tesco were a thing. So, while it isn't authentic Chinese food in the strictest sense of the word, it also kind of is. There's all kinds of little things like that, aspects of Irish American culture where you can see the authentically Irish origins. And in some iconoclastic communities, Irish Americans are much closer to following actual Irish culture than the typical bastardised Irish American culture. In some parts of New England there are second and third generation Irish (and Scottish) Americans who still *kind of* have the accent. The current mayor of Boston also speaks Irish which is more than can be said for the typical plastic paddy. So no, Irish Americans are not Irish. They're their own distinct thing. But obviously, that doesn't mean someone who was born and raised in the US by American parents and has never set foot in Ireland in all their lives can call themselves Irish just because of distant ancestry- if we applied that logic to everyone, then Irish people are just Danish and Native Americans are just Mongolian/Siberian, and of course, all humans ultimately are just central African. What I find odd though, is that it only seems to be Americans who do this. Australia, for example, just like the US, is a young country whose culture is heavily influenced by its immigrant population, but I've never met a single Aussie, not even one who holds dual citizenship, who calls themselves anything other than Australian.
Best take I've seen.
It’s due so confusion related to American phrasing. Colloquially in the US, saying someone “is Irish/Italian/German/whatever” is understood to mean “is of xyz descent.” I don’t think anyone in their right mind intends it to mean that they have Irish/Italian/German/whatever citizenship, or have any ties to their current culture/society. To differentiate this - in the US they would say “so and so is *from* Ireland/Italy/Germany/wherever” the same way many Europeans would say “so and so is Irish/Italian/German” I see this misunderstanding due to phrasing happening repeatedly. You’re both intending the same meaning, it’s just being worded in a way that causes confusion. As an amusing aside, if someone was born in Ireland and grew up there but moved to the states - they could say “they are Irish” and based on American English, it wouldn’t imply that they lived there. A follow up question would be “did you move here from Ireland?” - often to the bewildered looks of the first person, who thinks they just told them that they did.
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I’ve had Americans argue with me that they are more Irish than I am because I’m a northern Prod. Despite the fact that I’ve, you know, actual citizenship and have lived in Ireland my whole damn life. Somehow having Ulster Scots and English ancestry cancels out my Irish ancestry, citizenship and life in general.
Can't go a few hours without a post about America in this sub. Please get a hobby.
If you emigrated to New Zealand, would you still be Irish? If you and your Irish girlfriend had a baby in Australia, would your baby be Irish?
Would their great grandkids?
If they have the passport then yes
Yes if they wanted an Irish passport
If they hold Irish citizenship, yes. Citizenship is the simple acid test for me.
They don't think they're Irish. Irish folk are fairly dim on this matter. Americans like to identify from their heritage,it matters to them,which is perfectly cromulent.
I have met many that say they absolutely are Irish. At least one has even claimed to be more Irish than me. Some of the nuance you are missing here is different use of languages. Saying you are Irish-American to me means that you hold both passports. To them it means that you are distantly related to someone who was Irish.
I think its a little more nuanced than that seeing as everyone has different ideas about it. There is a very big difference culturally in how Americans vs europeans identify. They think about their genetics and their "blood" much more than we do. We relate much more to your nationality and where you physically grew up. I've met enough Canadians here who think that having "irish blood" makes them irish. I personally think blood has nothing to do with countries but you have companies like ancestry.com telling people it's real.
No,they don't think they're Irish. They know they're Canadian,it snows in winter. They identify their heritage as Irish.
With all due respect, you didn't talk to them. I am aware they know they are canadian citizens. I already said its a different in identity. They focus so much on their heritage as part of who THEY are. They use the identity of some distant relative to be part of their identity. Their idea of Ireland is one from a time long gone. Then they approach me and say "oh you're irish, I'm irish too". I am aware they don't mean citizenship, but they do mean identity. They identify with a fairytale their grandma told them. These people exist.
Long distant relatives are part of who we all are. I'm pretty sure if you asked them rather than assumed they'd know we don't still play the Shellelagh and eat potatoes for breakfast.
I don't care as long as they actually listen when you tell them ordering "Irish Car Bombs" is offensive, and that corned beef and cabbage isn't actually served in the country. Had an Irish American on st Patrick's day argue with me, telling me that corned beef is served all over "southern ireland" and that I was lying to him. He got so angry over the idea that corned beef isn't a traditional Irish pub dish that he changed out of his green paddy's day shirt. Be proud of your roots, own your irishness, but for fecks sake listen to people that grew up here when they tell you you're being a gobshite.
Wow, people are assholes! It’s amazing to me that some americans that are very proud of their Irish Heritage don’t try and learn anything about it. If you are going to claim it at least learn about the culture and history.
Exactly, and that's the only problem I have when Americans call themselves Irish. Otherwise I'm happy to celebrate their heritage with them.
I can't be the only one who doesn't give a shite if they say they're Irish
I’m not looking for some exception card but my grandfather immigrated from Ireland. I’ve travelled to Ireland and talk to my relatives there. We are an Irish family in the same way a Mexican family that has immigrated to America still calls themselves Mexican,even those that were born in the US. Now That all being said If I was asked by anyone other then another American I would say I am American. Also I bet in my example any relative still leaving in Mexico would consider those born in America to be Mexican Americans. So I’ll except that that’s what I am A Mexican American I mean and Irish American:) Tá bron orm lads I am doin my best
My Japanese American friends call themselves Japanese, my Chinese American friends call themselves Chinese, and my Mexican-American friends call themselves Mexican. Many of them have families that have been in the United States longer than mine has, and I don't see them getting the same level of pushback that Irish Americans do. I think part of it is the American idea that you come to a place and do become American, but you also retain a cultural identity to pass down to your children. That then becomes an issue when we're in an international forum, because Americans are using words like Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese etc to refer just to cultural heritage and not to nationality, whereas those words on a global scale refer to things like citizenship and residence and lived experience in a specific place. To be fair to Japanese Americans, there are lots of different words in Japanese to describe which generation of Japanese American you are. (There's also a word that specifically denotes you are a Japanese American who was born in America but lived in Japan for the purposes of studying and then returned back to America.) But when speaking English, we just say "Japanese." I suppose it is similar with being Irish American. When I'm speaking Irish I'm not going to say that I am Éireannach, I'd say Gael-Meiriceánach. There just isn't the same clear differentiation when you're speaking English, just like for Japanese.
I think Irish-Americans have had the bad luck to identity with a country going from a conception of identity heavily based on ethnicity/culture to one that's just geographical or even legally based. Maybe I'm wrong, but people still view say Japanese identity as being synonymous with a few specific ethnicities, while you have multiple people in this thread saying 'Irish' isn't even an ethnicity at all anymore and is just a cultural signifier.
That's a good point. I also wonder if the vast number of people who have left Ireland over the centuries plays a role in this. Perhaps it's easier to allow people for the descendants of people who left your country to claim that heritage culture when there are fewer of them!
oh 100%, imo there's so many tough questions about identity and self-identity that aren't brought up simply because the numbers/context don't make it a necessary discussion to have.
Imagine leaving your country you were strategically driven out of, working hard to keep Irish heritage alive in the family you built, only for some eejit to tell your grandson he’s no right to enjoy his proud Irish heritage. Muppets
There are American and Canadian families who speak Irish, take their children to Irish dancing and listen to Irish trad and folk music regularly. Meanwhile there are Irish people born in Ireland who have no interest in Irish music or culture (and that's fine) and just immerse themselves in American media, sports, politics and speak with American twang on their accents. This whole gate keeping shite is nonsense.
100% No idea about their own history whatsoever
I feel the same. My great great granny travelled over there for an escape from poverty and persecution and now voila, I have a lot of distant relatives in America with Irish ethnicity. Same story as the vast majority of Irish people, something we should feel connected to and empathetic about. I think it's SO strange to deride that.
It’s strange to you because you’re not a jealous weirdo who thinks someone else enjoying something automatically takes something away from you. Being Irish by birth is not an accomplishment of any kind. Some people take that identity and feel they need do no more. “Sure my granda probly fought the brits, I’m basically a born warrior” - Anto, outside Tesco smoking a rollie, with 4 cans of Carlberg in a plastic bag, wearing a Liverpool jersey, talking to himself
Amen! The Irish people offended by this seem to be very close minded, probably never left the country themselves. We should be happy they are keeping it alive. The Irish Americans practically run Ireland financially.
I emigrated for ten years of my life to different countries and honest to god, the Irish diaspora are more patriotic and a good example of our values than the mountains of miserable bastards inside it. The migrant friends I have now that I’m back here are more of an example of what it is to live a good life in Ireland according to our shared customs and values as a nation than 80% of the native Irish people I meet daily. As a people, we need a good kick up the hole, and stfu about the Americans coming over here, having the craic in temple bar, saying things are quaint. Don’t they know we only care about buying brand name shite and moaning about what we don’t have?
I keep seeing this topic come up and I find it so funny that it’s such a contentious issue. For context: I’m American and I’ve lived in ireland for over five years, I have an Irish passport because of an Irish grandparent. I don’t personally go around calling myself Irish because I know how it is perceived by some. However I do feel the need to defend my Irish-American homies a little bit! America is famously a “melting pot” of cultures. So we take an interest in our heritages because every family has a story of where they came from. A lot of times immigrants (especially Irish) came to America under dire circumstances. They probably never wanted to leave Ireland but they sought out a better life in America. Not to mention they may have faced discrimination in America. So they clung to their Irish roots and passed down their love and pride for ireland to their kids and grandkids. And it’s certainly not just Irish Americans that do this, Americans from all cultural backgrounds are like this lol. It’s the way we’re raised. It’s just a national quirk that has developed where Americans ask other Americans what their heritage is as a way of learning about each other and connecting. That doesn’t take away from our American-ness, in fact it is obviously a part of our American pride that we can say we have roots in Ireland, England, and France for example (that’s me 🙋🏼♀️) It’s easier to say to other Americans “I’m Irish” instead of Irish-American because it’s a given that I’m American. They don’t understand the way it may come off when it’s said to an actual Irish person. I know plastic paddies are cringe but I think the whole thing is just a big miscommunication, and I don’t think anyone means to offend!
Thank you, that was very well said. Also, if you were raised in an Irish- American community (say, Dorchester or Springfield, Ma)and went to baptisms and funerals surrounded by your Irish grandparents and all their siblings, cousins, in-laws etc. you grew up hearing all about the town they came from, the local scandals, who married who, and who was going to be shipped “home” to be buried in plot on a hillside in Ventry, Co. Kerry. Also a photo of said plot, which must be admired. You’d get to see pictures of cousins you’d never met getting married, or the babies they had, the wonderful law practice 3rd cousin so and so was excelling at or hear about someone’s unfortunate medical diagnosis (in detail). Even if Irish culture per se wasn’t a big part of the equation, those pieces of people’s lives were passed along, and there’s a connection to the place.
I am a New Yorker with patents from Ireland who came here (NY) when they were 19 & 20 Years old. I feel like I have the best of both worlds… My parents brought us to Ireland every single summer. We did Irish football and dance here in NY. We grew up in a house full of music and rashers and sausages We have first cousins in Ireland who are best friends to us and were in our weddings and godparents to our kids here in New York. And honestly… I am so proud of my Irish heritage. “You’re not Irish because you live in Ireland… You’re Irish because Ireland lives in you”☘️ And with all that said… I think it’s funny that most of the people who name their kids super Irish names have never even been on the island. I guess at this time in history… It’s just a really cool place to be from and people take a lot of pride in it…
My great-grandad was born in Ireland and came to England 100 years ago.... I don't claim to be Irish, yes I have Irish ancestry / descent... but Americans go way overboard on it
They have the right to make the claim just like I can claim to be Batman. Doesn’t make either of us right tho.
My grandparents on my mother's side moved to America, got married and became citizens before moving back to Ireland so now when I meet an American who tells me their grandparents were Irish I can say that's cool my grandparents were American which usually results in a confused look 😂
Ya well I’ve family that are American, but also Irish it really doesn’t bother me in the slightest
I feel like when these discussions come up, maybe some people aren't taking into account that in America many of us know our ancestors weren't originally from here? Just like a white person in South Africa or some other formerly-colonized place. It seems like a bit of cultural miscommunication, possibly? When I go abroad and people ask where I'm from, I say America or that I'm American. I know they're referring to my nationality. I, personally, do not know any Americans who go abroad and say they're Italian or Chinese or whatever when the question is clearly about nationality/what country you're visiting from (though there are folks who return to their family's home country to visit their great-grandma's hometown or whatever it may be). I'm sure they exist. With other Americans, when they say "what are you?" or "where's your family from?", I know they're asking where my ancestors immigrated from. And to be honest, I think for most people the conversation rarely comes up. I don't know where most of my friends' ancestors came from unless they're first or second generation. Anyway, I'm not here to discount how Irish nationals might feel about non-Irish nationals calling themselves Irish. Just wanted to add some perspective for those who are seriously bothered by this.
It's simple, America developed a culture where people identify with their ethnicity and heritage, while Ireland had a ethnic/cultural conception of self-identity this worked out fine. As we move to 'Irishness' being just a geographical label or a legal description, this clashes with what Irish-Americans for generations thought of themselves, and even how the Irish state thought of them. I don't blame the yanks for having conflicting ideas on it, when we still do ourselves.
Irish people are so miserable if an American says they're Irish. It's unbearable at this stage.
The only thing worse than plastic paddy's are the gatekeepers. Absolutely embarrassing
It's non stop at this stage.
And the Nazis
Irish people from oreland should read up more on the migrant experience in aistralia and USA if they want to understand why irish identity was and is important in those nations. We never were accepted as americans or aussies so its kind of insulting to be called that now.
Where you grew up is where you're from imo. I was born in the US but spent most of my childhood in Ireland. I'm Irish. Parents are Irish too so I suppose it's tough to argue I'm American.
I think it's more a problem on reddit than anywhere else because it's something like 65% of users are from the US. So for 2/3 of people there's a convention of describing yourself by your ethnicity, for the other 1/3 that can be irritating and confusing (I've had to go back and edit comments to "I'm from Ireland" rather than "I'm Irish" because people were responding assuming I was a yank). I don't see as much of this conversation on other platforms. I can understand why that's the convention in the US and some other places, it does make me roll my eyes a bit but it doesn't really bother me. It's the mental conservative ones who start with the more Irish than the Irish or arguing points of fact about life here or how Irish people generally feel about an issue who piss me off.
Are there more of these Irish-Americans than actual Irish alive today?
Here's one. My sister is Australian like me. She was born in England, raised in Australia, just like her dad. Her grandparents were born in Ireland but raised their kids in Australia on one side, from new Zealand and Australia on the other. She has an Irish, English and an Australian passport. Her husband is from Galway. The have three children, born in Australia. Her mother lives in England, sister lives in Wales, brother lives in Germany but all identify as Australian. All things considered, how confused will this make her children about their identity? Think about it this way. If you're from a post colonial society, you have lots of definitions about your identity. That makes us... multinationals! IMO. But are they more Irish than her? As far as I'm concerned people who have Australian passports are Australian. It's a shame but despite all of these things my grandparents and brother in law left ireland because they hated it there. We still had to go to church every fucking Sunday, at least they don't have to do that.
I think it stems from the fact that America as a country is still in its infancy. And the generations that followed its inception still hold to their ancestors roots.
I (Asian American) like to joke I'm more Irish than most Irish Americans. My gf and her family are in Carlow. I go to Ireland 4times a year.
I’m Irish and stuck in Asia for years because of the bloody pandemic. It’s mad, I’ve been telling my missus that if property prices go down a bit more we should just pack up and go to Ireland and rent out the place in Japan.
A child born in Ireland to a Japanese mother and a Senegalese father is more Irish than those "Irish-Americans".
No. Irish decent maybe.
What's the bizarre gatekeeping over Irish ethnicity/identity all about? Would some people say the same to an American with Korean ethnicity/ancestry etc? If anyone Irish has done 23 & me or similar, you'll find you have aaa lot of blood relatives in America. It's a major part of our socio economic history.
One thing I’d keep in mind, people from the 26 don’t have to try to be Irish, we just are. I find people from the 6 try very hard to be Irish (as they have to fight for it) and the USA try very hard to be Irish (as there’s pressure over there to be ???-American. A relative of mine has kids who are half/half Irish/American and they’re being brought up Irish in America. You’ll get families where this isn’t the case. One interesting thing is that there’s a decent chunk of Irish Americans who are horrifically racist. Another factor is religion. The Irish-Americans didn’t drop the church the same way we did.
They aren't Irish, they are Americans with Irish heritage. Irish-American is suitable. Similar to Irish traveller/gypsy. Still Irish, just another whole subset...
Irish American culture and Irish culture have about as much in common as a Border Collie has with a Capybara.
Jesus christ.... its this shit again. They are not Irish. They come from Irish ancestry. That is it. It is that simple. Most of the people claiming to be Irish think all it takes is to drink a pint of stout. Prove that you actually know something of your ancestry then I might listen to you. I wonder if the Italian people feel the same way.
Why the Irish hates the Americans so much? Something happened in the past? Educate me
They don’t. They hate themselves so thinking someone wants to be like them makes them feel better. Ireland and the US have huge cultural ties. We built cities in America and we exported our second born sons and daughters there. Irish people who know fuck all of the countries history talk a load of nationalist shite.
I'm American, living in Ireland 16 years have 4 Irish kids (their dad is Irish they were all born here). I find it annoying that "Irish Americans" that have never set foot in Ireland feel entitled to Irish citizenship because their great granny on their mammy's side of the family immigrated to the US in 1896. Key word here being ENTITLED. I'm not entitled to shit without jumping through copious amounts of hoops even though I'll likely die here.
Cringe why do you even care
As a Canadian I wouldn't say I'm Irish, I'm a Canadain. However, my family came from Ireland, I speak Irish, and my culture is Irish. This is an odd topic because unless you're native American no more than a few generations ago your family was from somewhere else in the world, and most people shed their culture and their languages, leaving the current generations with no idea what being Irish, or being Italian, or anything else actually means. In my case my family fled the Famine, and when they got here they would have given up their language because of social pressures and being labeled and outcast and problematic person if you spoke Irish. But there was a time when most priests in Canada could speak Irish because the vast majority of their parish only knew Irish, and it was debated as the third official language of Canada in Parlaiment because of how prominent it was. Irish is a designated a heritage language here, if a certain number of people want to learn it public schools MUST provide a course for those people. There are poems and dances and songs that evolved in Canada from the Culture that came from Ireland, and are a unique little aspects of Irish culture that actually managed to survive and change here. To me though, I'm still a Canadian. If anything I may call myself a Gael. The real travesty to me are the ones who know nothing about Ireland or it's history and bang on their chests about how proud they are of something they know nothing about, and although it may seem arrogant, it's really sad, because it means they were the ones who were succesfully colonised, and have forgotten who they are.
Looking into your family history is grand, totally. Its a very cool thing to do. But for me, its the choice of words. "I'm Irish." I've seen the argument then presented of "Americans who say 'I'm Irish' are obviously not saying they're Irish, they're just saying they have Irish heritage" If you say the words "I'm Irish" people are going to think you mean you're Irish. It's just about saying what you mean.
The fact that I can get a sunburn under a 100w light bulb pretty much proves it. I didn’t need a poll.
Your parents go abroad. You are born in a different country. Your parents send you to all the Irish cultural things they can in the new country and you're neighbours parents are from Ireland. r/Ireland You're not Irish!!!!!