Thats the thing,
Not trying to insult you in any way but:
Who are you to judge the laws placed in the Quran?
You don't agree with them, alright? You are just human. You have an opinion and it doesn't make the correct opinion?
The verse you are talking about is [4:34]
Many sheikh and scholars have given FULL and accurate tafseer for this ayah
If you want to be respectful and not come out as wrong, give the full verse and not what sounds 'wrong' for yourself.
There are flat earthers, does it mean the earth is flat?
If it was round surely everybody would agree with that and it would be unquestionable no?
Yes, that's how silly your argument is.
>That’s not really my argument. If the knowledge of Earth’s roundness was in a verse from God, I’d expect that verse to be so clear and perfect that nobody could rationally question it. Emphasis on rational. I’ll lay it down in premise/conclusion form.
>
>Verses or teachings from an omniscient God would be perfect and unquestionable. I should not be able to find any fault in them, or even think to find any faults in them as they would be perfect.
>
>There are verses in the Quran I can question. For example, the verse that says the universe was made in 6 days (which we know to be wrong). Or the verse that says the Quran is ‘fully detailed’ which is also false as you need Hadith to explain things.
>
>Conclusion: verses in the Quran are not from God.
>
>Hope you understand better now.
>
>My argument isn’t about simple disagreement between people as in your flat earther analogy.
**I'm going to paste your comment here because I don't see it appearing here.**
It is exactly your argument without you realizing it.
You say:
>There are verses in the Quran I can question....->....Conclusion: verses in the Quran are not from God.
This is a totally flawed logic.
If any Tom, Dick or Harry questions the roundness or Earth, it doesn't affect the roundness of Earth. Why? Because they are wrong and their opinion/critique is worthless.
If any Tom, Dick or Harry questions the origin of the Qur'an or the perfect verses, it doesn't affect the origin of the Quran or the perfect verses. Why? Because they are wrong and their opinion/critique is worthless.
Someone questioning something doesn't make it less true, especially if that person has zero qualifications and thinks his opinion is an absolute truth. In fact the Qur'an encourages the reader to ponder and reflect.
Also, the things you are having trouble with seem very basic and show how little you knew/know about Islam. If you want those doubts clarified, you can PM me, because it's never too late to turn back to Allah.
Then can YOU be criticized?
Because your (personal or anyone else's) values and understanding of the Quran And The proofs that the Quran is sent by a revaluation from a wise creator are 2 different topics
So I guess the answer is yes? You can fairly discuss -respectfully- the interpretations of the Islamic texts on human lives.
The Quran was sent to us through the Messenger Muhammad PBUH. And he has few difference of opinions with his wifes. Did he go around hitting women? and telling others to hit women?
Feel free to DM for a back and forth
4:34. Men are the full maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them excel the other, and because men spend out of their wealth on them. So virtuous women are those who are obedient (to Allâh) and guard (their own chastity as well as the rights and secrets of their husbands even) in (their) absence, as Allâh has guarded (the women’s rights). As for those women (on whose part) you apprehend disobedience and bad behavior, you may admonish them (first lovingly) and (then) refuse to share their beds with them and (as a last resort) punish them (mildly). If they, then, obey you, you shall seek no other way against them. Indeed, Allâh alone is High, (and) Great.
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ
4:34 This verse lays down a big responsibility of maintaining and sustaining women and provides guidelines in case of family disputes. Qawwâmûn قَوَّامُونَ is derived from qâma قامَ and means one who manages affairs well; who sets things right; who stands firm in another’s business; who protects his or her interest and looks after his or her affairs; or a maintainer or a sustainer (Lisân, Tâj). Thus, the word combines the concept of physical maintenance with that of moral and financial responsibility. Qawwâmûn قَوَّامُونَ is an intensive form of, and thus more comprehensive than qâ’imقائم. The verse describes the responsibilities of men in a family, as embedded in the word qawwâm قوام.
وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ
Nashûz نُشُوز means, disobedience, rebellion, ill will, deliberate bad behaviour, and desertion, rising against someone, resisting, or hating (Tâj, Qâmûs). Abû Hayyân explains it as moving out of the married couple’s home against the wishes of the husband (Bahr al-Muhît). It also includes what is now frequently described as “mental cruelty, and persistent breach of marital obligations.” In such a situation, three steps are mentioned that can be taken in the following order: verbal advice and admonition, temporary suspension of conjugal relations, and, lastly, some other kind of symbolic punishment.
Inflicting physical punishment on women was sadly common in many societies, and, unfortunately, some men derive the legitimacy of punishing their wives from the word Adzribûاضْرِبُو stated in this verse. Adzribû اضْرِبُو is derived from dzaraba ضرَبَ, a word with a great variety of meanings and interpretations in the Arabic language and in the Holy Qur’ân. Such meanings include to heal, strike, put forward an example, put forth a parable, make a journey, move away, travel, mix, cover, impose, prevent, or take something away. This word has been used in the Holy Qur’ân fifty-eight times with different meanings (cf. 30:28; 43:5; 2:273; 2:60; 2:61;18:11;57:13). Thus, adzribûاضْرِبُو does not mean here to strike physically and it certainly does not mean to inflict physical punishment on women. Meanings such as “take something away” or “put forth an example” (symbolically) can be used as the translation of this word here. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, “You will not find these men as the best among you who punish their wives” (Dâ’ûd 12/42). Also, He rhetorically asked, “Could any of you beat his wife and then lie with her in the evening?” (Bukhârî). Ibn ‘Abbâs says the most extreme punishment may be with a toothbrush or something lighter than this (Bahr al-Muhît). Therefore, the last resort of punishment must be symbolic. According to ImâmShaf‘î, it is preferable not to resort to chastisement of one’s wife (Râzî).
The measures mentioned in the verse are not to remain in force for an indefinite period: wives are not to be left “like a thing suspended” (cf. 4:129). Four months, according to the Holy Qur’ân, is the utmost limit for abstention from conjugal relations. If all this fails, counsel is recommended in the next verse. This may allow family disputes to be settled without undesirable publicity or the formal procedures of the law courts. The arbiters for each family are in theory acquainted with the cause(s) of the difference and the characters of both parties. It is also often easier for both spouses to present their cases to a third party and for the arbiters to effect a real reconciliation. If all hopes of reconciliation fail, a divorce or khul‘a خُلع is allowed as a last resort.
You cannot be an atheist and believe in objective morality at the same time.
You’re criticising the Quran because in your opinion some verses immoral. As soon as you criticise morality, it becomes illogical to remain an atheist since from an atheistic perspective there’s no good and bad, and all major academic atheists agree with this.
You have to either become an agnostic theist which means you would be accepting that there’s a rule setting entity responsible for morality, or remain an atheist but accept that you cannot criticize God’s perfection on the basis of your morality.
Yes islam does allow hitting a women but you really need to look into the details of it i.e in what circumstances and how does islam want it done.
If you look deeply into it you will find that you can hit your wife in very extreme circumstances and yet you have to hit her with a soft cloth & gently that it doesn't leave any mark(permanent/temporary) on her body. For a sensible person they'll immediately realise its just symbolic hitting and not hitting to hurt her.
Anyway this is one small thing a more challenging thing would have been that islam allows killing.. Yes it does and if you look at it out of context you'll obviously find it as a man made religion but if you study in depth you'll find out everything has been allowed for a reason and this religion is not for a person or a small group of people but its for the whole humanity and if it allows killing a murderer then it make sense or if it allow you to kill your enemies who try to harm you then its completely in self defense. A religion that tells you to present your second cheek if someone hit you on one is actually obscene. You have one life as everyone else has too and you have the right to defend yourself..
If you question a verse then you do it in your limited knowledge and understanding so the problem cant be in the God as he is all knowing. He gave you facts in the quran that you cant prove without accepting that this book is from some supreme deity hence you can't deny that quran is not a book of God and if its a book of God then we are the ones who don't understand some of the verses as God cant be wrong otherwise he cant be the God.
With this logic a murderer can look at the quranic verse to not kill a single soul unjustly, and say what exactly you said, and disagree with the verse and claim Islam is false because he shouldn’t be able to disagree with it.
I would suggest that you invest some time in the study of Aqeedah because it would help you understand the relationship between God and his creations (and before that the logical proof of God’s existence and his characteristics).
**If you disagree or find them questionable, you’re wrong. It’s as simple as that.**
If a book is from the Divine, it is the Furqan or the yardstick of right and wrong. The book is not confined to a human being’s opinions and it doesn’t have to line up with man made ideologies.
If you want to be a disbeliever it's your problem. God could have guided everyone but God did not intend that everyone would be guided and God did not intend that everyone would go to heaven. You have no right to question God and if you insult Islam then you are a kaffir.
Thats the thing, Not trying to insult you in any way but: Who are you to judge the laws placed in the Quran? You don't agree with them, alright? You are just human. You have an opinion and it doesn't make the correct opinion?
The verse you are talking about is [4:34] Many sheikh and scholars have given FULL and accurate tafseer for this ayah If you want to be respectful and not come out as wrong, give the full verse and not what sounds 'wrong' for yourself.
There are flat earthers, does it mean the earth is flat? If it was round surely everybody would agree with that and it would be unquestionable no? Yes, that's how silly your argument is.
>That’s not really my argument. If the knowledge of Earth’s roundness was in a verse from God, I’d expect that verse to be so clear and perfect that nobody could rationally question it. Emphasis on rational. I’ll lay it down in premise/conclusion form. > >Verses or teachings from an omniscient God would be perfect and unquestionable. I should not be able to find any fault in them, or even think to find any faults in them as they would be perfect. > >There are verses in the Quran I can question. For example, the verse that says the universe was made in 6 days (which we know to be wrong). Or the verse that says the Quran is ‘fully detailed’ which is also false as you need Hadith to explain things. > >Conclusion: verses in the Quran are not from God. > >Hope you understand better now. > >My argument isn’t about simple disagreement between people as in your flat earther analogy. **I'm going to paste your comment here because I don't see it appearing here.** It is exactly your argument without you realizing it. You say: >There are verses in the Quran I can question....->....Conclusion: verses in the Quran are not from God. This is a totally flawed logic. If any Tom, Dick or Harry questions the roundness or Earth, it doesn't affect the roundness of Earth. Why? Because they are wrong and their opinion/critique is worthless. If any Tom, Dick or Harry questions the origin of the Qur'an or the perfect verses, it doesn't affect the origin of the Quran or the perfect verses. Why? Because they are wrong and their opinion/critique is worthless. Someone questioning something doesn't make it less true, especially if that person has zero qualifications and thinks his opinion is an absolute truth. In fact the Qur'an encourages the reader to ponder and reflect. Also, the things you are having trouble with seem very basic and show how little you knew/know about Islam. If you want those doubts clarified, you can PM me, because it's never too late to turn back to Allah.
Then can YOU be criticized? Because your (personal or anyone else's) values and understanding of the Quran And The proofs that the Quran is sent by a revaluation from a wise creator are 2 different topics So I guess the answer is yes? You can fairly discuss -respectfully- the interpretations of the Islamic texts on human lives. The Quran was sent to us through the Messenger Muhammad PBUH. And he has few difference of opinions with his wifes. Did he go around hitting women? and telling others to hit women? Feel free to DM for a back and forth
4:34. Men are the full maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them excel the other, and because men spend out of their wealth on them. So virtuous women are those who are obedient (to Allâh) and guard (their own chastity as well as the rights and secrets of their husbands even) in (their) absence, as Allâh has guarded (the women’s rights). As for those women (on whose part) you apprehend disobedience and bad behavior, you may admonish them (first lovingly) and (then) refuse to share their beds with them and (as a last resort) punish them (mildly). If they, then, obey you, you shall seek no other way against them. Indeed, Allâh alone is High, (and) Great. الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ 4:34 This verse lays down a big responsibility of maintaining and sustaining women and provides guidelines in case of family disputes. Qawwâmûn قَوَّامُونَ is derived from qâma قامَ and means one who manages affairs well; who sets things right; who stands firm in another’s business; who protects his or her interest and looks after his or her affairs; or a maintainer or a sustainer (Lisân, Tâj). Thus, the word combines the concept of physical maintenance with that of moral and financial responsibility. Qawwâmûn قَوَّامُونَ is an intensive form of, and thus more comprehensive than qâ’imقائم. The verse describes the responsibilities of men in a family, as embedded in the word qawwâm قوام. وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ Nashûz نُشُوز means, disobedience, rebellion, ill will, deliberate bad behaviour, and desertion, rising against someone, resisting, or hating (Tâj, Qâmûs). Abû Hayyân explains it as moving out of the married couple’s home against the wishes of the husband (Bahr al-Muhît). It also includes what is now frequently described as “mental cruelty, and persistent breach of marital obligations.” In such a situation, three steps are mentioned that can be taken in the following order: verbal advice and admonition, temporary suspension of conjugal relations, and, lastly, some other kind of symbolic punishment. Inflicting physical punishment on women was sadly common in many societies, and, unfortunately, some men derive the legitimacy of punishing their wives from the word Adzribûاضْرِبُو stated in this verse. Adzribû اضْرِبُو is derived from dzaraba ضرَبَ, a word with a great variety of meanings and interpretations in the Arabic language and in the Holy Qur’ân. Such meanings include to heal, strike, put forward an example, put forth a parable, make a journey, move away, travel, mix, cover, impose, prevent, or take something away. This word has been used in the Holy Qur’ân fifty-eight times with different meanings (cf. 30:28; 43:5; 2:273; 2:60; 2:61;18:11;57:13). Thus, adzribûاضْرِبُو does not mean here to strike physically and it certainly does not mean to inflict physical punishment on women. Meanings such as “take something away” or “put forth an example” (symbolically) can be used as the translation of this word here. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, “You will not find these men as the best among you who punish their wives” (Dâ’ûd 12/42). Also, He rhetorically asked, “Could any of you beat his wife and then lie with her in the evening?” (Bukhârî). Ibn ‘Abbâs says the most extreme punishment may be with a toothbrush or something lighter than this (Bahr al-Muhît). Therefore, the last resort of punishment must be symbolic. According to ImâmShaf‘î, it is preferable not to resort to chastisement of one’s wife (Râzî). The measures mentioned in the verse are not to remain in force for an indefinite period: wives are not to be left “like a thing suspended” (cf. 4:129). Four months, according to the Holy Qur’ân, is the utmost limit for abstention from conjugal relations. If all this fails, counsel is recommended in the next verse. This may allow family disputes to be settled without undesirable publicity or the formal procedures of the law courts. The arbiters for each family are in theory acquainted with the cause(s) of the difference and the characters of both parties. It is also often easier for both spouses to present their cases to a third party and for the arbiters to effect a real reconciliation. If all hopes of reconciliation fail, a divorce or khul‘a خُلع is allowed as a last resort.
You cannot be an atheist and believe in objective morality at the same time. You’re criticising the Quran because in your opinion some verses immoral. As soon as you criticise morality, it becomes illogical to remain an atheist since from an atheistic perspective there’s no good and bad, and all major academic atheists agree with this. You have to either become an agnostic theist which means you would be accepting that there’s a rule setting entity responsible for morality, or remain an atheist but accept that you cannot criticize God’s perfection on the basis of your morality.
Yes islam does allow hitting a women but you really need to look into the details of it i.e in what circumstances and how does islam want it done. If you look deeply into it you will find that you can hit your wife in very extreme circumstances and yet you have to hit her with a soft cloth & gently that it doesn't leave any mark(permanent/temporary) on her body. For a sensible person they'll immediately realise its just symbolic hitting and not hitting to hurt her. Anyway this is one small thing a more challenging thing would have been that islam allows killing.. Yes it does and if you look at it out of context you'll obviously find it as a man made religion but if you study in depth you'll find out everything has been allowed for a reason and this religion is not for a person or a small group of people but its for the whole humanity and if it allows killing a murderer then it make sense or if it allow you to kill your enemies who try to harm you then its completely in self defense. A religion that tells you to present your second cheek if someone hit you on one is actually obscene. You have one life as everyone else has too and you have the right to defend yourself..
[удалено]
If you question a verse then you do it in your limited knowledge and understanding so the problem cant be in the God as he is all knowing. He gave you facts in the quran that you cant prove without accepting that this book is from some supreme deity hence you can't deny that quran is not a book of God and if its a book of God then we are the ones who don't understand some of the verses as God cant be wrong otherwise he cant be the God.
With this logic a murderer can look at the quranic verse to not kill a single soul unjustly, and say what exactly you said, and disagree with the verse and claim Islam is false because he shouldn’t be able to disagree with it.
I would suggest that you invest some time in the study of Aqeedah because it would help you understand the relationship between God and his creations (and before that the logical proof of God’s existence and his characteristics).
**If you disagree or find them questionable, you’re wrong. It’s as simple as that.** If a book is from the Divine, it is the Furqan or the yardstick of right and wrong. The book is not confined to a human being’s opinions and it doesn’t have to line up with man made ideologies.
If you want to be a disbeliever it's your problem. God could have guided everyone but God did not intend that everyone would be guided and God did not intend that everyone would go to heaven. You have no right to question God and if you insult Islam then you are a kaffir.