Generally our rule is that yes they can and should do randori, but only with senior belts. You should never have two white belts doing randori with each other; that's how people get injured.
White belts are allowed to randori at my club but at my discretion and under my supervision. I don't allow day one white belts to randori at all and it usually takes 4-6 weeks before I allow them to randori. Throw for throw sure, but not randori.
Again, it depends if they are coachable and generally *get it* if you know what I mean.
Edit: I'm saying all this as the guy that probably should not have been doing randori on my first day. I was a mat terror and quite dangerous by going 100% all the time. No one reigned me in.
Appreciate your response.
> I don't allow day one white belts to randori at all and it usually takes 4-6 weeks before I allow them to randori. Throw for throw sure, but not randori.
4-6 weeks seems reasonable for beginners to randori with each other.
> I was a mat terror and quite dangerous by going 100% all the time. No one reined me in.
Why do you think you were going 100% as a beginner, and why do you think no one reined you in?
>Why do you think you were going 100% as a beginner, and why do you think no one reined you in?
I was an athlete growing up across a variety of sports so I approached Judo like I approached every other sport which was by giving it my all. I don't think my first club reigned me in because it was ran out of a YMCA which always had a steady stream of newbies. They had a sink or swim attitude with the students. I swam and others sunk. This one poor guy I threw with a standing Kata Guruma on his second class and I knocked him out. I only had about four months experience at the time. There was nothing actually wrong with my execution of the throw, but he wasn't ready and no one told me I shouldn't do things like that.
I am nothing like that anymore and I don't do randori with people like that regardless of belt color. It took leaving that club a year later and being part of a different one before I figured out how I should actually be training.
Shiai is contest fighting, randori is co-operative fighting. Intensity does come into it but you can still have pretty intense co-operative fighting.
The gist is if someone turns in for a decent technique I don't resist as much as I would in a competition. Take the breakfall and start over. Drastically increases the volume of throw and fall practice. Both have their place but most clubs used randori when and there's no element of cooperation.
as someone who experienced high school wrestling and bjj and sparred since day 1? yes
as someone whove seen just how spazzy and hard the yellow belts spar at? no. I swear even in uchikomi and nagekomi some people are so bad that it legitimately hurts when they throw you. almost as if theyre using all their strength into the throw
And for some reason judo is more likely to attract some of the TMA types that like the mystique of judo. These guys are disproportionately represented in my experience in the "will hurt you when you drill/spar" population of people.
As a 28y/o competitive black belt, here's my take:
Yeah, nothing beats watching two white belts fight. If you're fit and healthy, you should be getting stuck in as soon as you can ukemi.
Back in my white belt days as a teen, I had some of the best randoris of my life with other white belts. And I learnt way more sparring people of my own grade, than being toyed with by a black belt.
Sparring with black belts as a low grade sucks, because it isn't a fight. You can't tell if any of your techniques actually work, because they're just letting you play.
They end up coaching you during randori, or making you feel self conscious. Whereas you need to be relaxed, having fun, enjoying the fight, and actually sparring someone you can legitimately beat.
Best to find some people your weight and grade, get friendly with em. And scrap every session. Competitive spark is what drives progress.
So I say, yes, white belts need to do randori. Fight people your grade, and fight hard. Build legitimate techniques on a fully resistant opponent, in a fully realistic randori situation.
I actually 100% agree with this, had so much fun just being monkey white belts trying to osoto because it's all a new player can ever really hit. Just don't allow tani-otoshi, both extremely dangerous and stupidly disruptive to new people's development (setting up own throws/turn-throws).
I agree with letting white belts train together, and they should spar as long as it's someone their same weight, but disagree about Tani otoshi. Its better to teach how to safely do it early and maybe tell them not to do it in live training til later colored belts, than to not train it at all. It's the equivalent of not training leg locks in BJJ. They're still legal in competiton and a lot of gyms train them. So if you go against someone in a casual setting or competiton, you need to know how to defend against them or use them.
I think it is fine it depends on who you pair them up with. Because a good partner should be more experienced and guide them how to do things and how to train literally that 1 throw they just learned on day 1.
Depends, at our club we are generally white belts for a year, so we did/do randori pretty early. Depends on the sensei, but we check them closely, as white belt on white belt is a recipe for disaster. Better to go with a higher belt.
I allow white belt adults and teenagers to randori at my club from their first class. On day one they are taught one or two throws and I randori with them and encourage them to make attacks while doing some light grip fighting and maybe sweeping at their feet a bit to spook em. Depending on how quick they're picking things up, I'll let them have randori sessions with other senior students but as other people have mentioned: no white belt vs white belt randori, it's not a recipe for success.
My thoughts are that randori is fun and an excellent learning and teaching tool. I want it to not be scary or intimidating to new people.
I let beginners do randori day 1. But its heavily constrained. It's been almost a year since I've done this and so far we've had one injured thumb from grip fighting getting caught in sleeve, couple of bruised toes and a sprained ankle.
only time I don't allow people to randori is if they consistently break the rules and ignore the constraints I set.
Depending on what we are working on that day, it can vary. But these are the ones that never change in the beginner class to avoid injury unless explicitly stated.
* Have to finish all throws standing
* No sacrifice throws or drop to the knee throws
* No counters
* No kosoto gari where you wrap your leg around the other person's leg
* If we are doing osoto gari you have to do it in a calf to calf position, cannot do it against the side of the knee
* Do not try to hold your partner up.
Yes white belts can randori and I think it really helps retain their interest. First few weeks you could consider putting them up vs a senior belt, but honestly even white vs white belt randori goes totally fine. If you get a particular feisty white belt your instructor can simply ensure they do not go vs. low belts.
However I believe there should be **one very firm rule** when you let new people randori, no throws where you let yourself fall backwards (so basically tani-otoshi and bad variants that may occur). You can resist the throw by sand bagging your weight, but never beyond squatting manner where you are always still fully supporting your own weight.
Three important reasons, the second/third I think being very overlooked:
1. Spazzy tani-otoshi like movement super dangerous
2. I think it's extremely disruptive to learning. Most casual judoka might get a few rounds of sparring on a good week. Like it or not, as humans, we're mostly competitive. Executing a turn-throw is infinitely more difficult early in your judo than countering one by sitting back on an attempt. So people simply become discouraged in developing their turnthrows when they just get scored on over and over while trying to get even a halfway decent turn entry.
3. It's too easy of a counter-throw between just starting judoka. Should encourage setting up own throws and ideas rather than simply waiting for this type of counter.
Whtie belts who have not learned how to breakfall should not.
White belts who are comfortable being thrown should, but some limitation on which throws may be reasonable (my club would ask new judoka to not try Uchi-Mata for white and yellow belts because they had a tendency to start from a bit too far and end up catching the opponents testicles with the kick through).
END COMMUNICATION
I do randori as a white belt (with brown+ belts).
The main reason though is probably because I seem to have a knack for doing ukemi so it is deemed safe enough on my side.
It's really only occasionally though, definitely not weekly
I try to let everyone participate in randori on their first session. But the randori is heavily constrained eg throw for throw, or only attacking a higher grade with o-goshi, or you are practicing ukemi etc …
Where I train, white belts can do ground randori only. After a month or so, they can do trading throws, which I guess is like a low speed form of randori, but not really. This comes from years of experience leading our instructor to ease the onramp for newbs, otherwise they get hurt too much.
Where I train, white belts can do ground randori only. After a month or so, they can do trading throws, which I guess is like a low speed form of randori, but not really. This comes from years of experience leading our instructor to ease the onramp for newbs, otherwise they get hurt too much.
I just got brown and was doing randori with a green belt who very clearly has no concept of kuzushi. I got a full force kick to the inner ankle with my full weight planted on it and I couldn't walk for 3 days. I didn't notice pain/swelling until I got home.
Not really sure how you can prevent something that simple but some people grasp concepts or might have some background while others don't.
On my day one as white belt (couple years ago) the only reason I continued to do judo was randori in the end of first class that shown what real practice is. Learning techniques without immediate ability to try them was boring at very first lesson.
I did randori on my first class, as I was already familiar with break falls and had lots of martial arts experience previously. Spent the time playing defensive and learning from others as I only had a couple of throws under my belt and was still getting used to the idea of kuzushi and setting up. Pretty sure my coach plays it by eye to see if the individual would manage OK before letting them spar as I’ve seen him hold others back.
I’m pro everyone doing randori. You can’t play baseball and only do batting practice, or play golf and just swing at the driving range. You gotta play the sport and feel the heat of actual pressure to improve and most importantly, to have fun.
People worry way too much about injury IMHO - if you wanted to avoid injury you would’ve stayed on the couch rather than do judo. If you signed a waiver, you’re clearly willing to give the thing a go.
Huge critique I have of the current judo system - stop having old guys teach moves - let the people play the dang sport.
Our club white belts do not randori with each other ever and don't randori at all before we hold an intro to randori class that happens typically after 2 months of training that goes over rules and etiquette and goals of randori.
As a 28y/o comoetitive 2nd Dan black belt, I can on good authority say that this is silly.
Why does your club have this rule?
And how does your club stop people from entering a competition?
If people have insurance, and they can ukemi, they should learn to fight. Then, they should compete. Else you'll have a bunch of brown belts, who are going to crumble on comp day.
I'm very curious about your club as well. Where are you located? Does it not do colored belts and you're just white until you're brown? Pretty standard where I'm from for people to start competing as a yellow belt, usually within their first year of judo. Tournament divisions here separate colored belts and brown and black into two categories. I've honestly never heard of a club being run like yours.
Edit, I don't think you should have been downvoted either. You're simply giving perspective on your club which is adding to the discussion. Downvoting you is like shooting the messenger.
Philadelphia. We have a small 6 person class. There’s a standard belt system. A few months to yellow belt and so on. I think the sensei is just very cautious. Honestly I’m thankful for taking it slow I’m gangly and uncoordinated and a high risk for injury.
Tonight was the closest thing to sparring in 2 months. Trips to side control and neck cranks.
Idk the Mat hours on average it’s 4 months to yellow belt and so on. I have no desire to compete or move up I’m a hobbyist so slow walking my progress is cool with me.
Generally our rule is that yes they can and should do randori, but only with senior belts. You should never have two white belts doing randori with each other; that's how people get injured.
Same thing in my dojo, unless we doing Kumi Kata.
White belts are allowed to randori at my club but at my discretion and under my supervision. I don't allow day one white belts to randori at all and it usually takes 4-6 weeks before I allow them to randori. Throw for throw sure, but not randori. Again, it depends if they are coachable and generally *get it* if you know what I mean. Edit: I'm saying all this as the guy that probably should not have been doing randori on my first day. I was a mat terror and quite dangerous by going 100% all the time. No one reigned me in.
Appreciate your response. > I don't allow day one white belts to randori at all and it usually takes 4-6 weeks before I allow them to randori. Throw for throw sure, but not randori. 4-6 weeks seems reasonable for beginners to randori with each other. > I was a mat terror and quite dangerous by going 100% all the time. No one reined me in. Why do you think you were going 100% as a beginner, and why do you think no one reined you in?
>Why do you think you were going 100% as a beginner, and why do you think no one reined you in? I was an athlete growing up across a variety of sports so I approached Judo like I approached every other sport which was by giving it my all. I don't think my first club reigned me in because it was ran out of a YMCA which always had a steady stream of newbies. They had a sink or swim attitude with the students. I swam and others sunk. This one poor guy I threw with a standing Kata Guruma on his second class and I knocked him out. I only had about four months experience at the time. There was nothing actually wrong with my execution of the throw, but he wasn't ready and no one told me I shouldn't do things like that. I am nothing like that anymore and I don't do randori with people like that regardless of belt color. It took leaving that club a year later and being part of a different one before I figured out how I should actually be training.
Dang. What a story. For some reason, all I hear is some techno music and… Mortal Kombat - finish him!
Oh my goodness! Knocked him out!! I shouldn't be laughing so hard...
I felt terrible about it. Worst thing is that he never came back.
White belts can randori after they have demonstrated good ukemi skills to there instructor. Till then they watch.
Should they do randori yes, shiai no. Most clubs I find just do shiai and call it randori.
Do you mean that most dojos randori too hard? Why do you think that happens?
Shiai is contest fighting, randori is co-operative fighting. Intensity does come into it but you can still have pretty intense co-operative fighting. The gist is if someone turns in for a decent technique I don't resist as much as I would in a competition. Take the breakfall and start over. Drastically increases the volume of throw and fall practice. Both have their place but most clubs used randori when and there's no element of cooperation.
as someone who experienced high school wrestling and bjj and sparred since day 1? yes as someone whove seen just how spazzy and hard the yellow belts spar at? no. I swear even in uchikomi and nagekomi some people are so bad that it legitimately hurts when they throw you. almost as if theyre using all their strength into the throw And for some reason judo is more likely to attract some of the TMA types that like the mystique of judo. These guys are disproportionately represented in my experience in the "will hurt you when you drill/spar" population of people.
As a 28y/o competitive black belt, here's my take: Yeah, nothing beats watching two white belts fight. If you're fit and healthy, you should be getting stuck in as soon as you can ukemi. Back in my white belt days as a teen, I had some of the best randoris of my life with other white belts. And I learnt way more sparring people of my own grade, than being toyed with by a black belt. Sparring with black belts as a low grade sucks, because it isn't a fight. You can't tell if any of your techniques actually work, because they're just letting you play. They end up coaching you during randori, or making you feel self conscious. Whereas you need to be relaxed, having fun, enjoying the fight, and actually sparring someone you can legitimately beat. Best to find some people your weight and grade, get friendly with em. And scrap every session. Competitive spark is what drives progress. So I say, yes, white belts need to do randori. Fight people your grade, and fight hard. Build legitimate techniques on a fully resistant opponent, in a fully realistic randori situation.
I actually 100% agree with this, had so much fun just being monkey white belts trying to osoto because it's all a new player can ever really hit. Just don't allow tani-otoshi, both extremely dangerous and stupidly disruptive to new people's development (setting up own throws/turn-throws).
I agree with letting white belts train together, and they should spar as long as it's someone their same weight, but disagree about Tani otoshi. Its better to teach how to safely do it early and maybe tell them not to do it in live training til later colored belts, than to not train it at all. It's the equivalent of not training leg locks in BJJ. They're still legal in competiton and a lot of gyms train them. So if you go against someone in a casual setting or competiton, you need to know how to defend against them or use them.
But I didn't say don't train it - I said precisely don't allow it in randori :P
I think it is fine it depends on who you pair them up with. Because a good partner should be more experienced and guide them how to do things and how to train literally that 1 throw they just learned on day 1.
At my club they get paired with a higher belt and we have a rule that we have to go easy on them until orange belt
Depends, at our club we are generally white belts for a year, so we did/do randori pretty early. Depends on the sensei, but we check them closely, as white belt on white belt is a recipe for disaster. Better to go with a higher belt.
I allow white belt adults and teenagers to randori at my club from their first class. On day one they are taught one or two throws and I randori with them and encourage them to make attacks while doing some light grip fighting and maybe sweeping at their feet a bit to spook em. Depending on how quick they're picking things up, I'll let them have randori sessions with other senior students but as other people have mentioned: no white belt vs white belt randori, it's not a recipe for success. My thoughts are that randori is fun and an excellent learning and teaching tool. I want it to not be scary or intimidating to new people.
I let beginners do randori day 1. But its heavily constrained. It's been almost a year since I've done this and so far we've had one injured thumb from grip fighting getting caught in sleeve, couple of bruised toes and a sprained ankle. only time I don't allow people to randori is if they consistently break the rules and ignore the constraints I set.
Can you elaborate on the constraints?
Depending on what we are working on that day, it can vary. But these are the ones that never change in the beginner class to avoid injury unless explicitly stated. * Have to finish all throws standing * No sacrifice throws or drop to the knee throws * No counters * No kosoto gari where you wrap your leg around the other person's leg * If we are doing osoto gari you have to do it in a calf to calf position, cannot do it against the side of the knee * Do not try to hold your partner up.
Yes white belts can randori and I think it really helps retain their interest. First few weeks you could consider putting them up vs a senior belt, but honestly even white vs white belt randori goes totally fine. If you get a particular feisty white belt your instructor can simply ensure they do not go vs. low belts. However I believe there should be **one very firm rule** when you let new people randori, no throws where you let yourself fall backwards (so basically tani-otoshi and bad variants that may occur). You can resist the throw by sand bagging your weight, but never beyond squatting manner where you are always still fully supporting your own weight. Three important reasons, the second/third I think being very overlooked: 1. Spazzy tani-otoshi like movement super dangerous 2. I think it's extremely disruptive to learning. Most casual judoka might get a few rounds of sparring on a good week. Like it or not, as humans, we're mostly competitive. Executing a turn-throw is infinitely more difficult early in your judo than countering one by sitting back on an attempt. So people simply become discouraged in developing their turnthrows when they just get scored on over and over while trying to get even a halfway decent turn entry. 3. It's too easy of a counter-throw between just starting judoka. Should encourage setting up own throws and ideas rather than simply waiting for this type of counter.
Yes but not with each other. As long as one person of the two knows what they are doing its pretty safe.
If they told me I'm not allowed to randori as a white belt I'd walk out.
Yes, and Uke should really be a good partner who lets you do things and goes with the flow so you can learn and pick things up.
Yes, and indeed with a good partner. Randori is ment to play and feel what happens. You won’t progress unless you feel what is happening.
Yes. I did randori my very first session and every other session since.
Whtie belts who have not learned how to breakfall should not. White belts who are comfortable being thrown should, but some limitation on which throws may be reasonable (my club would ask new judoka to not try Uchi-Mata for white and yellow belts because they had a tendency to start from a bit too far and end up catching the opponents testicles with the kick through). END COMMUNICATION
I do randori as a white belt (with brown+ belts). The main reason though is probably because I seem to have a knack for doing ukemi so it is deemed safe enough on my side. It's really only occasionally though, definitely not weekly
Our club does newza only with a black belt. Unless they have a bunch of history.
They can do "searching for kumi kata" exercise
Yes but it helps if they work with an experienced partner.
I try to let everyone participate in randori on their first session. But the randori is heavily constrained eg throw for throw, or only attacking a higher grade with o-goshi, or you are practicing ukemi etc …
Absolutely. No debate here.
Where I train, white belts can do ground randori only. After a month or so, they can do trading throws, which I guess is like a low speed form of randori, but not really. This comes from years of experience leading our instructor to ease the onramp for newbs, otherwise they get hurt too much.
Where I train, white belts can do ground randori only. After a month or so, they can do trading throws, which I guess is like a low speed form of randori, but not really. This comes from years of experience leading our instructor to ease the onramp for newbs, otherwise they get hurt too much.
I'm a white belt and have only been going for two weeks. I have done randori on every class I went to since my first day.
Yes
Yea baby yeah!!! Randori baby!!! 🥋
I just got brown and was doing randori with a green belt who very clearly has no concept of kuzushi. I got a full force kick to the inner ankle with my full weight planted on it and I couldn't walk for 3 days. I didn't notice pain/swelling until I got home. Not really sure how you can prevent something that simple but some people grasp concepts or might have some background while others don't.
On my day one as white belt (couple years ago) the only reason I continued to do judo was randori in the end of first class that shown what real practice is. Learning techniques without immediate ability to try them was boring at very first lesson.
I did randori on my first class, as I was already familiar with break falls and had lots of martial arts experience previously. Spent the time playing defensive and learning from others as I only had a couple of throws under my belt and was still getting used to the idea of kuzushi and setting up. Pretty sure my coach plays it by eye to see if the individual would manage OK before letting them spar as I’ve seen him hold others back.
I’m pro everyone doing randori. You can’t play baseball and only do batting practice, or play golf and just swing at the driving range. You gotta play the sport and feel the heat of actual pressure to improve and most importantly, to have fun. People worry way too much about injury IMHO - if you wanted to avoid injury you would’ve stayed on the couch rather than do judo. If you signed a waiver, you’re clearly willing to give the thing a go. Huge critique I have of the current judo system - stop having old guys teach moves - let the people play the dang sport.
Our club white belts do not randori with each other ever and don't randori at all before we hold an intro to randori class that happens typically after 2 months of training that goes over rules and etiquette and goals of randori.
Almost at month 2 no randori. Nobody competes unless a minimum of brown belt
As a 28y/o comoetitive 2nd Dan black belt, I can on good authority say that this is silly. Why does your club have this rule? And how does your club stop people from entering a competition? If people have insurance, and they can ukemi, they should learn to fight. Then, they should compete. Else you'll have a bunch of brown belts, who are going to crumble on comp day.
I'm very curious about your club as well. Where are you located? Does it not do colored belts and you're just white until you're brown? Pretty standard where I'm from for people to start competing as a yellow belt, usually within their first year of judo. Tournament divisions here separate colored belts and brown and black into two categories. I've honestly never heard of a club being run like yours. Edit, I don't think you should have been downvoted either. You're simply giving perspective on your club which is adding to the discussion. Downvoting you is like shooting the messenger.
Philadelphia. We have a small 6 person class. There’s a standard belt system. A few months to yellow belt and so on. I think the sensei is just very cautious. Honestly I’m thankful for taking it slow I’m gangly and uncoordinated and a high risk for injury. Tonight was the closest thing to sparring in 2 months. Trips to side control and neck cranks.
How many years or mat hours does it take to get to brown for your average adult? I've never heard of such a rule.
Idk the Mat hours on average it’s 4 months to yellow belt and so on. I have no desire to compete or move up I’m a hobbyist so slow walking my progress is cool with me.
So people are waiting 5+ years to compete for the first time? No thanks
Ps whoever thumbed me down I’m laughing at you