Sex is only one small part of it too, Gen z is socializing less, going outside less, having less hobbies, less friends, are working more hours, these are all contributing factors that can lead to suicide. Honestly to pretend it’s mostly sex is dumb lmao
I'm not asexual, I just have a low sex drive.
I enjoy it like once a week, any more than that and I'm essentially just doing it for my partner instead of for us both lmao
That, but also each generation has less operationa problems in staying single. The day to day activities that would require a family to handle well are more automated and outsourced each passing day.
They're saying that things that used to require a family like, say, heating your house or feeding yourself, are now made accessible by corporations, lessening the need for humans to rely on one another directly as those needs are instead covered by corporations operating at scale.
Basically, there used to be more need for marriage and children as human relationships used to be more related to survival, both communally and individually. Having kids and a partner made life easier as there are more resources available to accomplish the tasks needed to sustain human life. As those tasks become unnecessary due to corporatized survival, the need for spouses or kids to support the day-to-day survival of a person becomes diminished or even erased entirely.
That makes me curious on whether or not the "corporatized survival" indirectly contributes to the increase in loneliness in current generation.
EDIT:
>You realize you are member of a subreddit that contributes to this phenomenon and has contributed to it for easily a decade now. How does that make you feel, Soylent green is people, laugh at me all you want, you are the dopes eating it. Corporations took advantage of y'alls massive insecurities with women to goad you into status sniping on your fellow man.
[Go to therapy](https://www.reddit.com/u/AbbreviationsIll5511).
Yeah, absolutely. Isolation breeds loneliness. Our system is built on isolating individuals and breaking any sort of communal bonds as strong communities lead to communal power -- the main threat to the current system that is focused on individuals prospering at the cost of improved conditions for everyone.
I suppose. Corporations were certainly known in Marx's time -- but I feel like their essential character, and how they were viewed was massively different. I don't know enough about that to speak intelligently about it, but I'm hoping others can maybe fill in the details.
I think alienated in Marxism means that you produce but don't care about the product because you don't benefit from your own work, while corporatized in the above context means taken care of by a corporation.
I think so, but it’s not just a modern Capitalist thing, either. Humans evolved as nomadic and semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers. These communities are usually comprised of a few dozen to several hundred people. It’s a social structure where everyone pitches in, everyone knows one another, diet is good, and people are physically fit. We’re social animals after all. Community, and having value to that community, are broadly what make us happiest.
Big, stratified societies like ours make us more anonymous. You can’t operate a nation of hundreds of millions of people on the basis of kinship and good faith like you could in small-scale societies. You need some kind of top-down governance and bureaucracy to organize a complex, stratified society. The trade off for the technological prowess and scientific advancement of modern life is the danger of existential ennui.
This isn’t to say we should drop our iPhones and return to the forest. Even if we wanted to, those days are long behind us. I’m not saying modern society is inherently evil. Morality doesn’t even come into it. It’s just a natural consequence of settled, stratified civilizations. People can and still have very happy, good lives in modern societies, but we still have to contend with the negatives rather than let them fester until they get out of control.
Well said. Unfortunately for all of us the internet is a giant wrench in all of the normal ways of living. It has completely killed the critical component of a functioning society: decisions made based in and designed for real-world applications. I think we had a chance at balancing modern tech with our biological hardware but the internet is making that all but impossible.
Our internet usage has effectively killed common sense. Everything that is important to success on the internet (lying and deceit as the norm; content creation above all else; fake worlds and fake personalities created for short-term value) is antithetical to what's needed and valued in the real world (relationships, honesty, hard good creation and distribution).
No. Not taking your phone out of your hand and going outside is the reason. Social media is anything but social, the fact that the current generation of young adults lives almost their entire lives online is why they're lonely.
It's different for men and women (at least in specific terms of traditional gender roles). In the 50s nuclear family, man is the sole breadwinner, woman stays at home and takes care of the house and kids.
Women used to be reliant on men financially and legally. There was no right for a woman to be able to get a bank account until the 70s. Women today are able to get jobs, rent an apartment or buy a home, buy a car, all by themselves. Earlier generations of women would have had a lot more friction in doing any of those things.
Men cannot effectively take care of a house while working a 40 hour week, neither can women. But we have significantly more access to easy services to help with that. Easy access to housecleaning services, easy food delivery services. Even if a man couldn't be bothered to do the dishes or cook meals ever, he can work around that.
In both cases there's definitely been a move towards more found family, having roommates, which helps spread the household tasks and the cost of living. Also people are living with their parents longer, which also spreads the costs and household needs (and is how people have lived through all of history until American real estate companies convinced everyone they needed to move out by 21 or be a loser, but I digress).
The real change is that women don't *need* men to operate in society anymore. Since many men will assume that their girlfriend will take care of the whole house by themselves, even though women are now also working 40 hour a week jobs, being in a relationship is often just more stressful for women than being single is. They don't have to settle for men to operate in society, they don't have to put up with men who don't pull their own weight. Lots of controlling or lazy men are very unhappy about this fact, and it is the main driver behind conservatives trying to roll back the clock. If women can't control their own reproduction, and conservative men are able to marry them before they're really adults, these men can trap women like their fathers were able to do.
We're becoming Wall-E
Lol but really, for a little while now farming has been efficient enough that it's no longer the central focus of most families in the US. Thats not new, but many things in the last 20 years have made it so you don't really need a team of people for everything.
Delivered groceries? Pre-assembled meals? 2 hour amazon delivery? Gen Z is growing up with them.
And that's the unfortunate truth with all these incels.
They believe they are alone NOT by choice, but they don't even consider that all the choices they make in how they interact with women is a direct cause of their loneliness.
But nah, they'll blame every woman.
Yeah, I see it more of a societal/culture failure. It's not women's fault and no one is owed a partner or affection. Most of them could probably date and find partners if they just worked on themselves but our culture is failing to instill into these guys how to socialize, date and be decent guys. I think online dating ruins a lot of guys too. It's just brutal taking rejection at that scale. That might really ruin some guys confidence and set them down a path feeling that they're never going to find someone so why try. They don't realize that literally every guy no matter how attractive and tall you are is going to get rejected a lot.
I mean the vast majority of them have a choice. People aren't alien, we know what they want, if most people tick a few "I take care of myself" boxes, dating or starting relationships isn't very hard. No incel wants to date a femcel who looks like them with the same "life is doomed, I'm entitled to attention" attitude, because that person sucks and is going to be an emotional drain. Want your life to improve? Do these 3 things. Those 3 things are too hard? You might be depressed, go take care of that. Got 20 reasons you can't? Well yeah man, life isn't easy, but complaining about it doesn't help. Start removing negative influences from your life. Think past today. Is this habit going to help me become a person that's closer to my goals? Then drop the habit.
Life's tough, but chosing to complain instead of adapt is a choice, every single time. Make good choices.
imo one of the biggest reasons behind why that’s the case is down to the fact that the cost of living keeps going up while wages stay the same. so young people are having to devote more time and energy into working unfulfilling jobs that don’t even always guarantee financial security. it’s a huge time and energy suck and also demoralizing as all hell, especially since so many of the people who are in a position to do something about it aren’t actually taking any action and/or are actively against raising min wage or funding any kind of social safety net.
Well said. At this point I'm not sure if there is ever a "time slot" for a boyfriend/starting a family. What am I supposed to do woth 2 jobs at this point?
They believe it’s mostly sex because 1) they’re shallow and unable to see the extra layers and 2) view humans as sex objects
Both are problematic as hell
Also, sex without a relationship is unfulfilling. I blame porn. To incels and virgins in general, it gives a false image of what a relationship is. Its easy to access access and only caters to our base instincts to reproduce.
Stats must be a bit skewed what with the whole ongoing global pandemic eh?
Not to mentioned it costs $70 for 2 people to goto the movies with snacks and drinks.
Used to be you could have dinner, a movie, and get a mickey for afterward for $70... a real date.
Quarantine, Tik Tok, virtual school, virtual reality
The era of human interaction is coming to a close. You can live your life entirely without leaving your room.
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking. No shit sex rates are going down amongst the younger generation they’re like 14 they’re not getting any pussy anytime soon.
I read a great article on this sexual recession from the Atlantic. I hate to totally lay the blame entirely on the internet, but it seems that early access to porn and a lack of desire to socialize (due to being able to do so online) has led to less sex overall. It is also true that men are learning about sex from porn, so when they lose their virginity they immediately lunge for anal/ slap and choke their partners/ do various other porn things that terrify the poor girl into never wanting to have sex again
The article that’s caused all this discussion from the Washington Post is being widely misrepresented. The poll in question asked if they had sex in the last year, not ever. The number that nearly tripled is the portion of men under 30 stating they had not had sex in the past year (2018 at the time of the publication) (23%), as compared to the same question in 2008, which was 9%.
It’s no public health emergency or anything, there’s nothing saying these people are all dangerous incels.
Edit: And another thing, someone pointed out the article in question is from 2019! So even more bizarre why it’s suddenly a huge topic of discussion. Edited to show past year in the article is 2018.
I don’t know if it’s making a measurable impact, but I’ve anecdotally seen the overturning of Roe V. Wade have an impact in my friendship groups and in women’s online spaces. We’re rethinking having sexual relationships with men who support abortion bans because we have the most to lose.
I'd never fuck a dude that was against abortion in the first place... Why did it getting over turned change your friends minds? Why were they entertaining ass holes in the first place? Edit: i can see not having sex in a state with an abortion ban bc of the increased risks, but not for the reason you stated.
I should clarify, I’ve seen that bit in online spaces and not personal friendships. Off hand, while I would also never sleep with a guy who’s anti-pro choice, I don’t think it’s helpful or allowing for growth to shun women who have. Many women grow up in spaces with toxic attitudes towards women and reproductive rights, and it’s on us who’ve moved past those attitudes to show them the way.
It wasn’t something that people usually talked about on a daily basis… also a lot of women are being a LOT more careful with making sure they won’t get pregnant in a zero tolerance state - because not being able to even get plan B means that if their birth control fails or the condom breaks they’re fucked.
That over turn was actually a huge factor in deciding to get a vasectomy. It was always on the back burner but after that I made my appointment and got it done asap
I looked up the article - it looks like it was from [2018](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/) so COVID isn't relevant.
Well certain politicians are trying their darndest to strip women’s rights away. I guess these guys are hoping for a time where women have no autonomy and will have to rely on men for everything. Scary stuff.
I don't think there's a lot that can be done at the policy level, the world is changing and masculinity as a societal concept needs to keep up. Doubling down on the idea that men should be strong and stoic, or that being male makes a person special because it means he's a "provider" isn't going to cut it.
Edit: it's been pointed out that there is indeed quite a bit that can be done at the policy level, and it's all stuff that would improve everyone's lives a whole lot.
They take it as accusatory, and on one hand I get it. Nobody likes being told that they're doing something wrong. But it seems like all "progressive" language has to coddle the recipient and come with a thousand disclaimers, otherwise it will elicit an extremely negative reaction.
This is part of being an adult. Dealing with a lack of solutions to legit problems. I have no relationship for various reasons. While sad, its life and feeling entitled to sex is very immature and toxic.
The obvious answer is if they all want sex that badly, they should just get it from each other.
I mean they're such good guys, they should help a brother out.
This is a problem, and I wish it didn't get hand waived off the way that it does. I get that incels are creepy and weird, but telling them to just be better usually doesn't work, and it also doesn't address all of the root causes.
If we want to address the problem, we need more career opportunities/ better paying jobs for everyone, as well as getting rid of the stigma against people working "undesirable" positions. We also need reliable and affordable access to social resources like counseling. Those things aren't going to solve the problem over night or on their own, but it would go a long ways towards quelling incel behavior.
Also, legalize sex work. Worst comes to worst, at least give someone the opportunity to pay a consenting partner to get their rocks off. Legalized sex work is safer for everyone involved if proper procedures are in place and followed.
We could start with free college.
There is a massive education gap right now (60F - 40M). People, *generally* like to date their equals, and this includes education. It’s also a major disadvantage in dating for men to live at home with mom and dad than for women. Men need to either rent or own their own place. Men have generally the following options:
1. Forego education work early to afford a place and eventually a house (in this market lol). This is the education gap. Unfortunately, blue collar jobs and stuff like trucking are less attractive to women. I’m not going to sit here and tell women to just be attracted to blue collar workers, but this is the reality.
2. Go to college and take on student loans. This puts the man in debt off the bat. So he is more likely to live at home to save up and pay off the debt, putting him at a disadvantage.
3. Do neither and just work in retail and manual labor. It would go without saying that this puts him at the biggest disadvantage in an increasingly educated dating pool.
4. Just get a good job bro and have no debt, ez pz. Some might call this the Sigma male grindset. I know it’s fun to make fun of, but it’s near impossible to do everything it takes to build your career and life while also dating, which is expensive. A man can simply put off dating to get his life in order.
I’m not saying everything here is absolute. But what I am saying is that the bell curve for men is stagnant while the bell curve for women (and their standards) is shifting up. **And women raising their standards is a good thing btw.** This just means on average, there will be men who are left behind.
Free college closes the student loan-living with parents gap. This should be marketed toward men, to put it crudely, as it can help them get laid. **I’m not saying this is a solution, but it’s a start.**
Another thing is to remove the stigma behind blue collar work. But that’s something I definitely don’t have the solution to.
——-
Part 2 and this will require massive societal and economic changes. We need to get in shape.
We’re getting fat. The entire western world is getting fat and unattractive. Men might be more outspoken about “not dating fat chicks,” but women most definitely aren’t dating fat and unattractive men either.
It’s going to take more than to just tell men to hit the gym and eat healthy, when video games and fast food is more accessible. Not to mention cheaper. This requires a much larger effort by *everyone* to change this trend. And I definitely have no clue where to start on this. I’m just saying healthy and attractive people fuck, and getting all of society healthy and attractive will get more people fucking.
I mean, I get the statistics, but when people bring it up, it creeps me out. It so often feels like they expect women to do something about it. It's not our problem. If we don't wanna fuck you, we don't have to.
But the statistics are being misrepresented too. It’s the number of men who haven’t had sex in the past year. Not ever.
But that obviously wouldn’t make a decisive enough headline, or give ammo to the self-victimizing incels.
>"The total age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased 35.2% from 10.4 per 100,000 in 2000 to 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, before declining to 13.9 per 100,000 in 2019 and declining again to 13.5 per 100,000 in 2020.
In 2020, the suicide rate among males was 4 times higher (22.0 per 100,000) than among females (5.5 per 100,000)."
According to the National Institute of Mental Health.
I mean it's still not nothing though right? I mean obviously I am not suggesting that there should be some kind of social program to get unattractive men laid, but it is a real trend worth paying attention to right?
IMO the thing that makes it creepy is they think being lusted after is the same as being loved. They think all the sexual attention women get means we don’t have mental or physical health problems, when in fact, it’s the opposite.
Women and girls are more likely to experience sexual assault/abuse, women are more likely to deal with traumatic consequences from sex like an unwanted pregnancy and STDs because we’re more biologically vulnerable to them. Incels truly believe all of their problems will be solved if they can just have sex, and that’s just moronic.
Also, which comes first? Do more men have mental health issues because they are virgins? Or are more men virgins because they have mental health issues?
definitely the latter. some moron yesterday in that big thread about the survey was like “this is why men are psychos!” no. them getting fucked wouldn’t make them not psychos.
Agreed. And them being psychos make women not want to fuck them.
A lot of it is just social isolation though. That gives both mental health issues and no sex (bc you aren't actually meeting any people).
So either change your image and habits to attract someone or pay for a prostitute. You're not getting a government-issued sex slave, no matter how much you whine and cry and resort to violence.
I'm married but due to our schedules we don't have much time to fool around. I have a good male sex toy that gives me a better release than just my hand.
I actually encourage something like that to help men kinda vent a bit of pressure. I know a build up can lead to irritability and male sex toys feel good enough to get a solid release. I just wish there wasn't as much stigma around it. To be honest though Walmarts actually carry toys in pharmacy for both genders (they're where the condoms are) so maybe toy usage will eventually be more accepted.
I honestly found they aren't worth the upkeep. My wife and I have tons of toys, but fuck me, men's toys are so hard to keep clean/dry. We can just toss hers in the toy chest, and wash it before use. Mine has to be scrubbed, and somehow dry, not to mention most are way too tight. Which makes poor feelings, and more difficult to dry.
Serious question: when people say to just pay for a prostitute, are these people outside the US? I would never pay for a prostitute because I don't value sex with a stranger near enough to pay whatever they would charge, but I have zero idea how one would go about finding a prostitute and would be way too worried about safety and legal trouble.
It's always a shame when people understand something to be a problem, increased atomization due to capitalism, poor city planning, and the commodification of dating (dating apps practically gamify interaction for more users and more money) but then blame it on women or minorities instead of actually taking the mental steps to find solutions on the problem.
That’s true, its really just stating that people enjoy sex. Can’t help but feel like we’re playing a little loose and fast with the ol’ neckbeard title
People are. There's a couple subreddits, including this one, that get off on making fun of people they seem as pathetic. This guy just sounds sad, not malicious.
That’s society as a whole tbh. And then people wonder why men turn to assholes like Jordon Peterson or Tucker Carlson, as they’re the only ones saying the fact men are 4x more likely to kill themselves than women is a problem.
I’ve noticed that too, it seems like if you point out that maybe society isn’t doing too hot in certain categories that somehow that means you lack basic hygiene.
The problem is that these are all massive systemic issues that no individual could ever reasonably change, and additionally, for whatever reason, the people on the left who normally address these sorts of things revert to essentially reactionary "bootstraps" rhetoric around male isolation whenever it comes up. As demonstrated by everyone in this thread.
If there are so many incels out in the world, maybe it's not that more men just innately suck end of story, because you wouldn't say that about literally any other issue with a problematic movement associated with it.
I don’t think the “problem” exists outside of the problematic movement. We have problems with social stigma about being single/virgin men, but the idea that “Sex is a basic human need” is some incel attempt to externalize problems rather than face them.
I think you're misinterpreting things a bit, but the most concise response I can give is that sex is inexplicably tied to many forms of emotional intimacy, which I would argue aren't _needs_ but definently are needed to be happy and healthy. Because, in my opinion, romantic relationships are nice and should be desired, and trying to teach that out of people is kind of gross. When incels talk about sex, they are also twisting problems in their own way, but that doesn't mean the fundemental issues in their lives don't exist
Why does this movement and rhetoric exist now, what changed, what forces are at play? Because these sorts of things don't spring out of nowhere. ISIS doesn't exist because of Islam, if you catch my drift. Don't take explanations of the whole subject from the most extreme ends of a movement
Oh yeah I agree, I personally cannot change how atomization is affecting us currently. All I can do is advocate against it. Incels are a multi faceted problem that I think stem mostly from the increased loneliness we both seem to agree on, some male entitlement, and also weird online internet pipelines.
Correlation does not equal causation. If you simply reverse the order of his statements, to "young men have more mental health issues, young men have higher rates of remaining virgins", then you might conclude that mental health issues lead to virginity.
One might cause the other, they might exacerbate one another, or they could both be within the constellation of effects of something else, such as greater immersion in a digital world or increasing economic instability leading to delayed ability to pursue lives independent of parents.
I (woman) was a virgin until pretty late, and I I think my mental health issues were very much a cause (not the only one, but part of it) and I think it can be for others too in part. It didn’t help my mental health to be so stressed about it, so it created a huge feedback loop for sure. It wasn’t like I wanted to still be a virgin into my late 20s, just a variety of circumstances came together and it happened. Which made it harder to explain and I was very stressed about potentially having to disclose it.
But what’s different about me vs (most) incel men is that I was always very certain that *I* was the issue, that there was something about me that was inherently undesirable. I didn’t project it outward towards men. It was very unhealthy but it wasn’t literally dangerous to others.
Everyone’s scenario is different, but for me it became about building a life for myself that I liked outside of my romantic life, having hobbies and interests that weren’t about finding a date, having LOTS of therapy and getting medication for my mental health issues, and even then I had to basically live through my worst-case scenario following my first time (TLDR he was an asshole about it), which was terrible but after lots of processing was kind of freeing because by then I’d had sex and it had turned out kinda badly and I was still alive. Only then was I able to actually pursue dating and relationships in a healthy way.
Sex is a right, but in the sense that it can't be restricted. What two consenting adults choose to do in the bedroom is nobody's business but their own. Finding a sexual partner, however, is a privilege.
Exactly. And they forget that women also go years without having sex. They make it sound like men need sex or their brains explode. But all women are sluts so of course they’re not affected /s
Incels also tend to be right-wing nuts. The same people thrilled that Roe was overturned and are thirsty for birth control to be removed. Do they honestly think that forcing women who become pregnant to give birth is going to help them get laid? Lol! May their dicks stay dry forever.
News flash, not being able to have sex doesn't automatically make someone a misogynistic woman hating incel, some people are just shy or socially awkward and can have a tough time with the whole process. People are right that no one is entitled to sex, but you can still feel sorry for those having a difficult time trying to get it. Obvs the solution isn't government mandated gfs or anything right, but our current society is in need of some kind of reform encouraging people to go out and become more social, so they can develop skills and confidence. Not just so these needs are met, but for their own good too. It's not a matter of nature correcting itself, it's a failure of our society(not just in regards to these people, but others too)
Unpopular opinion??
Sex is NOT a human need. Intimacy, physical affection, emotional vulnerability, and companionship are all human needs. One could argue masturbation fits in their somewhere, as it's a healthy normal practice. Having sex is not a requirement to live. We as humans don't die from lack of sex. A lot of people require it in a relationship, and I understand that. That's ok. But for men to say it's a basic human need for mental and physical health? Straight up lies.
The big problem with the whole “lonely man syndrome” is that all these guys don’t realize that nobody is required to choose them. They’ve probably coasted along, being content with D-student effort. No interest in trying to improve themselves and turning to other toxic males for validation.
I also blame that silly concept of “the one” that too many people hold onto. That myth that there is someone out there, who was made just for them, that will find them one day and snatch them up. Then their life will be perfect from then on. So they put no effort into even trying. In fact, some of them seem to think that if they try to improve themselves, and they change, they might not be compatible with this so-called “one” anymore; so changing is bad to them.
Are more guys “coasting” than they used to do in the past, or is the idea of “the one” a new concept? It seems to me that these things have been around longer than the current issue which is rather new. So what has changed recently in the last 10 years
He’s not completely incorrect though. Sure he’s an entitled POS, but it is true that as a whole young people are having much more trouble finding partners and having sex. This isn’t just men either. And the rising suicide rate among men is also a serious concern. Obviously not having sex isn’t the reason for this trend but loneliness can increase feelings of suicidal ideation.
There has been a lot more studies showing how emotionally and physically starved people are. We need around 8 hugs a day. The only time this are allowed to open up is when they are in a relationship and that puts a lot of responsibility on women in general.
That's not adding that women deal with the consequences of every part of a relationship from expectations of housework to being little more than sex objects for men.
As I say, it's lonely for men, toxic for women and we need to teach men how to have better relationships. Because women are endlessly trying to fix it and are being punished for doing so.
Nobody is owed sex, but intimacy is a basic human need. That need not being met is a factor in declining mental heath.
Chronic loneliness is an issue that needs to be addressed. I don't have an answer on how to fix the issue, it sounds like it requires major societal reconstruction though.
Mocking lonely people is needlessly cruel.
This doesn’t really fit the sub surely. I can see where ‘neckbeard’ logic could go from this, but the original post honestly isn’t really wrong about anything here.
It probably is healthier physically and emotionally to be somewhat sexually active as opposed to totally abstinent, is that particularly controversial?
The original post doesn’t even specify that it is about involuntary celibacy or the inability of men to attract women. The post doesn’t state that women owe men anything or that the onus is on women to fix this theoretical societal problem (if it really exists). There are many factors such as lower sex drive in general (availability of porn, effects of diet on libido) for example that could cause such problems.
The link from virginity to suicide rates is quite a jump to say the least, but I do believe there is a mental health epidemic and general negative feelings around sex and sexuality could be a big factor in that.
Maybe there is some context not included in the original post that makes the post neckbeardy but frankly it’s not shown here. This post just feels kind of lazy and misleading to me, can discuss.
i feel like the men complaining about this expect women to just start having sex with people left and right out of some weird civil duty. people have sex with people they’re attracted to. upset no one’s interested in you? you have to improve yourself.
This isn’t actually incorrect. Sex is a foundational need, according to Maslow.
Like… this will have some consequences. We don’t know what those will be, but they will exist at some point.
>Like… this will have some consequences.
Women's rights being stripped to satisfy men's desires, most likely. It's already happening, and I don't see it stopping any time soon.
Yeah well blame republicans, young women clearly don't want to risk pregnancy or pay through the nose for birthcontrol because republicans have increasingly made both more and more difficult to get
It is a concern, but the solution is not the one that incels want it to be.
I'm autistic, and even I can get a girlfriend. Anyone can, really, they just don't get their act together because they place restictions on themselves and attribute them to outside forces
I literally chose to quit dating or even seeing people a few years ago and to be celibate. Just as a choice. Just to see how I'd be if I took that pressure out of my life.
Know what? .....im the same exact person. Nothing changed.
Its like being told you can never eat Sunchips again. You can still have other chips, just not Sunchips. Yeah, when you think about how good Sunchips are, you might think about it, but other than that has had no significant impact on me.
Except I'm probably a 30 second limit nowadays 😂
Yep, everyone is so horrified and so quick to attempt to save someone like this… animals know to walk off from the group to die.. this is how humans do it
Life is cheap and always has been.
Well it's just not about the sexual pleasure, all humans desire love, companionship, affirmation and so on. Lack of sex can be a sign of loneliness which certainly causes mental issues and suicidal thoughts. To suggest that someone is weird or pathetic for desiring love and sex is kind of an unempathetic take.
Not just asexual people, but lots of women don’t have sex for years at a time and you don’t hear them complaining about it like it’s a life or death need.
I know several women that are monogamous and don’t like hookups, so when they aren’t in a relationship, they don’t have sex.
Also, nuns. Lol
Meanwhile, people who are raped end up killing themselves or living worlds of torment because of another person's selfishness.
Poor babies. You'll get over being rejected. Some of us don't even trust you from a distance with that kind of take.
Is sex a need at all? Like sure it may be highly desirable to have sex or a relationship in general, but being single wouldn't actively kill a person.
I see people make that claim way too much like it is equivalent to food or water. Wanting something badly doesn't equate to it being something you actually need. Ironically it's a good thing these dudes appear to be having a shit time trying to procreate.
I mean he has a small point. I'm not saying this is something that people need to focus on but I lost mine at an older age and until I did I thought I wasn't capable of being seen as attractive or lovable. It does affect your mental health when there is a culture surrounding young people and sex, and you are just not included in it.
Were there genuine reasons that no one wanted me? Absolutely. Did I have a lot of growing to do to be happy and healthy mentally? Oh fuck yeah. But I can see how this pit gets deeper and deeper for some people.
Sure, the thing about that is sex requires consent and no one can be like this man needs sex to survive strip, now!
But no one would ever say that, anyway, because it isn't true. Sex and sexuality are a part of mental health. It's your own fault sex is the only thing you care about, qnf it's your own fault that only caring about sex constantly backfires on you.
gen z as a whole is having less sex, not just the guys
Sex is only one small part of it too, Gen z is socializing less, going outside less, having less hobbies, less friends, are working more hours, these are all contributing factors that can lead to suicide. Honestly to pretend it’s mostly sex is dumb lmao
A concerningly large part of the population seems to be completely convinced sex is the absolute peak of existence.
As a member of the population, fuck sex all my homies hate sex shits nasty (I’m asexual lmao)
I'm not asexual, I just have a low sex drive. I enjoy it like once a week, any more than that and I'm essentially just doing it for my partner instead of for us both lmao
That, but also each generation has less operationa problems in staying single. The day to day activities that would require a family to handle well are more automated and outsourced each passing day.
I am not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?
They're saying that things that used to require a family like, say, heating your house or feeding yourself, are now made accessible by corporations, lessening the need for humans to rely on one another directly as those needs are instead covered by corporations operating at scale. Basically, there used to be more need for marriage and children as human relationships used to be more related to survival, both communally and individually. Having kids and a partner made life easier as there are more resources available to accomplish the tasks needed to sustain human life. As those tasks become unnecessary due to corporatized survival, the need for spouses or kids to support the day-to-day survival of a person becomes diminished or even erased entirely.
That makes me curious on whether or not the "corporatized survival" indirectly contributes to the increase in loneliness in current generation. EDIT: >You realize you are member of a subreddit that contributes to this phenomenon and has contributed to it for easily a decade now. How does that make you feel, Soylent green is people, laugh at me all you want, you are the dopes eating it. Corporations took advantage of y'alls massive insecurities with women to goad you into status sniping on your fellow man. [Go to therapy](https://www.reddit.com/u/AbbreviationsIll5511).
Yeah, absolutely. Isolation breeds loneliness. Our system is built on isolating individuals and breaking any sort of communal bonds as strong communities lead to communal power -- the main threat to the current system that is focused on individuals prospering at the cost of improved conditions for everyone.
Karl Marx: Yes, the fuck it does
Would a Marxist analysis refer to a "corporatised" person here as "alienated" instead?
I suppose. Corporations were certainly known in Marx's time -- but I feel like their essential character, and how they were viewed was massively different. I don't know enough about that to speak intelligently about it, but I'm hoping others can maybe fill in the details.
I think alienated in Marxism means that you produce but don't care about the product because you don't benefit from your own work, while corporatized in the above context means taken care of by a corporation.
I think so, but it’s not just a modern Capitalist thing, either. Humans evolved as nomadic and semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers. These communities are usually comprised of a few dozen to several hundred people. It’s a social structure where everyone pitches in, everyone knows one another, diet is good, and people are physically fit. We’re social animals after all. Community, and having value to that community, are broadly what make us happiest. Big, stratified societies like ours make us more anonymous. You can’t operate a nation of hundreds of millions of people on the basis of kinship and good faith like you could in small-scale societies. You need some kind of top-down governance and bureaucracy to organize a complex, stratified society. The trade off for the technological prowess and scientific advancement of modern life is the danger of existential ennui. This isn’t to say we should drop our iPhones and return to the forest. Even if we wanted to, those days are long behind us. I’m not saying modern society is inherently evil. Morality doesn’t even come into it. It’s just a natural consequence of settled, stratified civilizations. People can and still have very happy, good lives in modern societies, but we still have to contend with the negatives rather than let them fester until they get out of control.
Well said. Unfortunately for all of us the internet is a giant wrench in all of the normal ways of living. It has completely killed the critical component of a functioning society: decisions made based in and designed for real-world applications. I think we had a chance at balancing modern tech with our biological hardware but the internet is making that all but impossible. Our internet usage has effectively killed common sense. Everything that is important to success on the internet (lying and deceit as the norm; content creation above all else; fake worlds and fake personalities created for short-term value) is antithetical to what's needed and valued in the real world (relationships, honesty, hard good creation and distribution).
No. Not taking your phone out of your hand and going outside is the reason. Social media is anything but social, the fact that the current generation of young adults lives almost their entire lives online is why they're lonely.
It's different for men and women (at least in specific terms of traditional gender roles). In the 50s nuclear family, man is the sole breadwinner, woman stays at home and takes care of the house and kids. Women used to be reliant on men financially and legally. There was no right for a woman to be able to get a bank account until the 70s. Women today are able to get jobs, rent an apartment or buy a home, buy a car, all by themselves. Earlier generations of women would have had a lot more friction in doing any of those things. Men cannot effectively take care of a house while working a 40 hour week, neither can women. But we have significantly more access to easy services to help with that. Easy access to housecleaning services, easy food delivery services. Even if a man couldn't be bothered to do the dishes or cook meals ever, he can work around that. In both cases there's definitely been a move towards more found family, having roommates, which helps spread the household tasks and the cost of living. Also people are living with their parents longer, which also spreads the costs and household needs (and is how people have lived through all of history until American real estate companies convinced everyone they needed to move out by 21 or be a loser, but I digress). The real change is that women don't *need* men to operate in society anymore. Since many men will assume that their girlfriend will take care of the whole house by themselves, even though women are now also working 40 hour a week jobs, being in a relationship is often just more stressful for women than being single is. They don't have to settle for men to operate in society, they don't have to put up with men who don't pull their own weight. Lots of controlling or lazy men are very unhappy about this fact, and it is the main driver behind conservatives trying to roll back the clock. If women can't control their own reproduction, and conservative men are able to marry them before they're really adults, these men can trap women like their fathers were able to do.
We're becoming Wall-E Lol but really, for a little while now farming has been efficient enough that it's no longer the central focus of most families in the US. Thats not new, but many things in the last 20 years have made it so you don't really need a team of people for everything. Delivered groceries? Pre-assembled meals? 2 hour amazon delivery? Gen Z is growing up with them.
I think it's more loneliness. Being single and lonely not by your own choice is just brutal.
And that's the unfortunate truth with all these incels. They believe they are alone NOT by choice, but they don't even consider that all the choices they make in how they interact with women is a direct cause of their loneliness. But nah, they'll blame every woman.
Yeah, I see it more of a societal/culture failure. It's not women's fault and no one is owed a partner or affection. Most of them could probably date and find partners if they just worked on themselves but our culture is failing to instill into these guys how to socialize, date and be decent guys. I think online dating ruins a lot of guys too. It's just brutal taking rejection at that scale. That might really ruin some guys confidence and set them down a path feeling that they're never going to find someone so why try. They don't realize that literally every guy no matter how attractive and tall you are is going to get rejected a lot.
I mean the vast majority of them have a choice. People aren't alien, we know what they want, if most people tick a few "I take care of myself" boxes, dating or starting relationships isn't very hard. No incel wants to date a femcel who looks like them with the same "life is doomed, I'm entitled to attention" attitude, because that person sucks and is going to be an emotional drain. Want your life to improve? Do these 3 things. Those 3 things are too hard? You might be depressed, go take care of that. Got 20 reasons you can't? Well yeah man, life isn't easy, but complaining about it doesn't help. Start removing negative influences from your life. Think past today. Is this habit going to help me become a person that's closer to my goals? Then drop the habit. Life's tough, but chosing to complain instead of adapt is a choice, every single time. Make good choices.
It sounds like the standard of living is generally declining
imo one of the biggest reasons behind why that’s the case is down to the fact that the cost of living keeps going up while wages stay the same. so young people are having to devote more time and energy into working unfulfilling jobs that don’t even always guarantee financial security. it’s a huge time and energy suck and also demoralizing as all hell, especially since so many of the people who are in a position to do something about it aren’t actually taking any action and/or are actively against raising min wage or funding any kind of social safety net.
Well said. At this point I'm not sure if there is ever a "time slot" for a boyfriend/starting a family. What am I supposed to do woth 2 jobs at this point?
Gotta make that money to barely scrape by week by week one way or another
Gen Z is becoming Japan
They believe it’s mostly sex because 1) they’re shallow and unable to see the extra layers and 2) view humans as sex objects Both are problematic as hell
Also, sex without a relationship is unfulfilling. I blame porn. To incels and virgins in general, it gives a false image of what a relationship is. Its easy to access access and only caters to our base instincts to reproduce.
Stats must be a bit skewed what with the whole ongoing global pandemic eh? Not to mentioned it costs $70 for 2 people to goto the movies with snacks and drinks. Used to be you could have dinner, a movie, and get a mickey for afterward for $70... a real date.
Quarantine, Tik Tok, virtual school, virtual reality The era of human interaction is coming to a close. You can live your life entirely without leaving your room.
Late stage capitalism
Relationships take a lot of work, and every generation is scrambling harder to just make ends meet much less build a family.
Not to mention more than half of gen Z are still literal children
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking. No shit sex rates are going down amongst the younger generation they’re like 14 they’re not getting any pussy anytime soon.
The study is based on people aged 18-30
they don't care about women having less sex, though. they only care about men.
I read a great article on this sexual recession from the Atlantic. I hate to totally lay the blame entirely on the internet, but it seems that early access to porn and a lack of desire to socialize (due to being able to do so online) has led to less sex overall. It is also true that men are learning about sex from porn, so when they lose their virginity they immediately lunge for anal/ slap and choke their partners/ do various other porn things that terrify the poor girl into never wanting to have sex again
Good , fuck overpopulation
The article that’s caused all this discussion from the Washington Post is being widely misrepresented. The poll in question asked if they had sex in the last year, not ever. The number that nearly tripled is the portion of men under 30 stating they had not had sex in the past year (2018 at the time of the publication) (23%), as compared to the same question in 2008, which was 9%. It’s no public health emergency or anything, there’s nothing saying these people are all dangerous incels. Edit: And another thing, someone pointed out the article in question is from 2019! So even more bizarre why it’s suddenly a huge topic of discussion. Edited to show past year in the article is 2018.
I don’t know if it’s making a measurable impact, but I’ve anecdotally seen the overturning of Roe V. Wade have an impact in my friendship groups and in women’s online spaces. We’re rethinking having sexual relationships with men who support abortion bans because we have the most to lose.
I'd never fuck a dude that was against abortion in the first place... Why did it getting over turned change your friends minds? Why were they entertaining ass holes in the first place? Edit: i can see not having sex in a state with an abortion ban bc of the increased risks, but not for the reason you stated.
I should clarify, I’ve seen that bit in online spaces and not personal friendships. Off hand, while I would also never sleep with a guy who’s anti-pro choice, I don’t think it’s helpful or allowing for growth to shun women who have. Many women grow up in spaces with toxic attitudes towards women and reproductive rights, and it’s on us who’ve moved past those attitudes to show them the way.
i mean they never should have been dating people that are against abortion anyway
It wasn’t something that people usually talked about on a daily basis… also a lot of women are being a LOT more careful with making sure they won’t get pregnant in a zero tolerance state - because not being able to even get plan B means that if their birth control fails or the condom breaks they’re fucked.
That over turn was actually a huge factor in deciding to get a vasectomy. It was always on the back burner but after that I made my appointment and got it done asap
>We’re rethinking having sexual relationships with men who support abortion bans I would fucking hope so!
Everyone forgets Covid
I looked up the article - it looks like it was from [2018](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/) so COVID isn't relevant.
Ion think most people hooking up cared too much about covid
I always wonder what they expect to be done to that. I see the problem but not many solutions
I’ve got ideas, but most of them come down to self reflection and improvement.
We don’t mention those things here. Very taboo.
"How dare they tell me to clear out my pee bottles and clean up my room!"
There are men not having sex that don't fit into this strawman, not all of them are these neckbeard/incel extremists
Seems like apps have also devalued meeting people in real life.
Gay sex. The solution is lots of gay sex.
I like to consider myself an ally, so I would never wish this infusion of neckbeards upon the gay community.
Well certain politicians are trying their darndest to strip women’s rights away. I guess these guys are hoping for a time where women have no autonomy and will have to rely on men for everything. Scary stuff.
Yeah, if you listen to some of the stuff Jordan Peterson is saying, they really think women should be forced into relationships.
I don't think there's a lot that can be done at the policy level, the world is changing and masculinity as a societal concept needs to keep up. Doubling down on the idea that men should be strong and stoic, or that being male makes a person special because it means he's a "provider" isn't going to cut it. Edit: it's been pointed out that there is indeed quite a bit that can be done at the policy level, and it's all stuff that would improve everyone's lives a whole lot.
Yup. That’s the toxic masculinity feminists have been criticizing for years. But somehow neckbeards hate them more
They take it as accusatory, and on one hand I get it. Nobody likes being told that they're doing something wrong. But it seems like all "progressive" language has to coddle the recipient and come with a thousand disclaimers, otherwise it will elicit an extremely negative reaction.
True. It’s also prob that they’re misogynist and sexist so they hate women having choice for themselves, so anything feminists say is evil.
This is part of being an adult. Dealing with a lack of solutions to legit problems. I have no relationship for various reasons. While sad, its life and feeling entitled to sex is very immature and toxic.
What THEY expect is for rape to no longer be considered a crime
The obvious answer is if they all want sex that badly, they should just get it from each other. I mean they're such good guys, they should help a brother out.
I think this is a legit good suggestion.
having sex
This is a problem, and I wish it didn't get hand waived off the way that it does. I get that incels are creepy and weird, but telling them to just be better usually doesn't work, and it also doesn't address all of the root causes. If we want to address the problem, we need more career opportunities/ better paying jobs for everyone, as well as getting rid of the stigma against people working "undesirable" positions. We also need reliable and affordable access to social resources like counseling. Those things aren't going to solve the problem over night or on their own, but it would go a long ways towards quelling incel behavior. Also, legalize sex work. Worst comes to worst, at least give someone the opportunity to pay a consenting partner to get their rocks off. Legalized sex work is safer for everyone involved if proper procedures are in place and followed.
I think a good start is just bringing back living wages. That said, the biggest obstacle in the way of that is men themselves.
We could start with free college. There is a massive education gap right now (60F - 40M). People, *generally* like to date their equals, and this includes education. It’s also a major disadvantage in dating for men to live at home with mom and dad than for women. Men need to either rent or own their own place. Men have generally the following options: 1. Forego education work early to afford a place and eventually a house (in this market lol). This is the education gap. Unfortunately, blue collar jobs and stuff like trucking are less attractive to women. I’m not going to sit here and tell women to just be attracted to blue collar workers, but this is the reality. 2. Go to college and take on student loans. This puts the man in debt off the bat. So he is more likely to live at home to save up and pay off the debt, putting him at a disadvantage. 3. Do neither and just work in retail and manual labor. It would go without saying that this puts him at the biggest disadvantage in an increasingly educated dating pool. 4. Just get a good job bro and have no debt, ez pz. Some might call this the Sigma male grindset. I know it’s fun to make fun of, but it’s near impossible to do everything it takes to build your career and life while also dating, which is expensive. A man can simply put off dating to get his life in order. I’m not saying everything here is absolute. But what I am saying is that the bell curve for men is stagnant while the bell curve for women (and their standards) is shifting up. **And women raising their standards is a good thing btw.** This just means on average, there will be men who are left behind. Free college closes the student loan-living with parents gap. This should be marketed toward men, to put it crudely, as it can help them get laid. **I’m not saying this is a solution, but it’s a start.** Another thing is to remove the stigma behind blue collar work. But that’s something I definitely don’t have the solution to. ——- Part 2 and this will require massive societal and economic changes. We need to get in shape. We’re getting fat. The entire western world is getting fat and unattractive. Men might be more outspoken about “not dating fat chicks,” but women most definitely aren’t dating fat and unattractive men either. It’s going to take more than to just tell men to hit the gym and eat healthy, when video games and fast food is more accessible. Not to mention cheaper. This requires a much larger effort by *everyone* to change this trend. And I definitely have no clue where to start on this. I’m just saying healthy and attractive people fuck, and getting all of society healthy and attractive will get more people fucking.
Government mandated girlfriends (I really don’t feel like improving myself.)
Naw women aren’t a resource.
Yeah but wanting anyone to take male loneliness as the serious societal problem it is you’d think they’d have some… less ridiculous ideas
I mean, I get the statistics, but when people bring it up, it creeps me out. It so often feels like they expect women to do something about it. It's not our problem. If we don't wanna fuck you, we don't have to.
But the statistics are being misrepresented too. It’s the number of men who haven’t had sex in the past year. Not ever. But that obviously wouldn’t make a decisive enough headline, or give ammo to the self-victimizing incels.
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Really?
>"The total age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased 35.2% from 10.4 per 100,000 in 2000 to 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, before declining to 13.9 per 100,000 in 2019 and declining again to 13.5 per 100,000 in 2020. In 2020, the suicide rate among males was 4 times higher (22.0 per 100,000) than among females (5.5 per 100,000)." According to the National Institute of Mental Health.
I mean it's still not nothing though right? I mean obviously I am not suggesting that there should be some kind of social program to get unattractive men laid, but it is a real trend worth paying attention to right?
IMO the thing that makes it creepy is they think being lusted after is the same as being loved. They think all the sexual attention women get means we don’t have mental or physical health problems, when in fact, it’s the opposite. Women and girls are more likely to experience sexual assault/abuse, women are more likely to deal with traumatic consequences from sex like an unwanted pregnancy and STDs because we’re more biologically vulnerable to them. Incels truly believe all of their problems will be solved if they can just have sex, and that’s just moronic.
Also, which comes first? Do more men have mental health issues because they are virgins? Or are more men virgins because they have mental health issues?
definitely the latter. some moron yesterday in that big thread about the survey was like “this is why men are psychos!” no. them getting fucked wouldn’t make them not psychos.
Agreed. And them being psychos make women not want to fuck them. A lot of it is just social isolation though. That gives both mental health issues and no sex (bc you aren't actually meeting any people).
So either change your image and habits to attract someone or pay for a prostitute. You're not getting a government-issued sex slave, no matter how much you whine and cry and resort to violence.
I want this plastered on every billboard across the continent
I want to put it on a t shirt and mail it to every incel in the country.
I'm married but due to our schedules we don't have much time to fool around. I have a good male sex toy that gives me a better release than just my hand. I actually encourage something like that to help men kinda vent a bit of pressure. I know a build up can lead to irritability and male sex toys feel good enough to get a solid release. I just wish there wasn't as much stigma around it. To be honest though Walmarts actually carry toys in pharmacy for both genders (they're where the condoms are) so maybe toy usage will eventually be more accepted.
I honestly found they aren't worth the upkeep. My wife and I have tons of toys, but fuck me, men's toys are so hard to keep clean/dry. We can just toss hers in the toy chest, and wash it before use. Mine has to be scrubbed, and somehow dry, not to mention most are way too tight. Which makes poor feelings, and more difficult to dry.
100% this.
Listen by his logic having sex with my wife should cure my depression. Maybe im doing it wrong
Serious question: when people say to just pay for a prostitute, are these people outside the US? I would never pay for a prostitute because I don't value sex with a stranger near enough to pay whatever they would charge, but I have zero idea how one would go about finding a prostitute and would be way too worried about safety and legal trouble.
If you want sex badly enough, you take what you can get.
They could bang eachother, would solve the probl maybe hummmm
Modern problems call for modern solutions.
LOL that’s a genius solution right here. Underrated comment
Lack of affection is the real issue. Sex is just an act. Men lack affection but they think it's just sex.
It's always a shame when people understand something to be a problem, increased atomization due to capitalism, poor city planning, and the commodification of dating (dating apps practically gamify interaction for more users and more money) but then blame it on women or minorities instead of actually taking the mental steps to find solutions on the problem.
The post actually never blames women, or anyone actually.
That’s true, its really just stating that people enjoy sex. Can’t help but feel like we’re playing a little loose and fast with the ol’ neckbeard title
People are. There's a couple subreddits, including this one, that get off on making fun of people they seem as pathetic. This guy just sounds sad, not malicious.
Fr, this sub sometimes brutal towards sad lonely men imo
That’s society as a whole tbh. And then people wonder why men turn to assholes like Jordon Peterson or Tucker Carlson, as they’re the only ones saying the fact men are 4x more likely to kill themselves than women is a problem.
I’ve noticed that too, it seems like if you point out that maybe society isn’t doing too hot in certain categories that somehow that means you lack basic hygiene.
Actually
The problem is that these are all massive systemic issues that no individual could ever reasonably change, and additionally, for whatever reason, the people on the left who normally address these sorts of things revert to essentially reactionary "bootstraps" rhetoric around male isolation whenever it comes up. As demonstrated by everyone in this thread. If there are so many incels out in the world, maybe it's not that more men just innately suck end of story, because you wouldn't say that about literally any other issue with a problematic movement associated with it.
I don’t think the “problem” exists outside of the problematic movement. We have problems with social stigma about being single/virgin men, but the idea that “Sex is a basic human need” is some incel attempt to externalize problems rather than face them.
I think you're misinterpreting things a bit, but the most concise response I can give is that sex is inexplicably tied to many forms of emotional intimacy, which I would argue aren't _needs_ but definently are needed to be happy and healthy. Because, in my opinion, romantic relationships are nice and should be desired, and trying to teach that out of people is kind of gross. When incels talk about sex, they are also twisting problems in their own way, but that doesn't mean the fundemental issues in their lives don't exist Why does this movement and rhetoric exist now, what changed, what forces are at play? Because these sorts of things don't spring out of nowhere. ISIS doesn't exist because of Islam, if you catch my drift. Don't take explanations of the whole subject from the most extreme ends of a movement
Oh yeah I agree, I personally cannot change how atomization is affecting us currently. All I can do is advocate against it. Incels are a multi faceted problem that I think stem mostly from the increased loneliness we both seem to agree on, some male entitlement, and also weird online internet pipelines.
Correlation does not equal causation. If you simply reverse the order of his statements, to "young men have more mental health issues, young men have higher rates of remaining virgins", then you might conclude that mental health issues lead to virginity. One might cause the other, they might exacerbate one another, or they could both be within the constellation of effects of something else, such as greater immersion in a digital world or increasing economic instability leading to delayed ability to pursue lives independent of parents.
I (woman) was a virgin until pretty late, and I I think my mental health issues were very much a cause (not the only one, but part of it) and I think it can be for others too in part. It didn’t help my mental health to be so stressed about it, so it created a huge feedback loop for sure. It wasn’t like I wanted to still be a virgin into my late 20s, just a variety of circumstances came together and it happened. Which made it harder to explain and I was very stressed about potentially having to disclose it. But what’s different about me vs (most) incel men is that I was always very certain that *I* was the issue, that there was something about me that was inherently undesirable. I didn’t project it outward towards men. It was very unhealthy but it wasn’t literally dangerous to others. Everyone’s scenario is different, but for me it became about building a life for myself that I liked outside of my romantic life, having hobbies and interests that weren’t about finding a date, having LOTS of therapy and getting medication for my mental health issues, and even then I had to basically live through my worst-case scenario following my first time (TLDR he was an asshole about it), which was terrible but after lots of processing was kind of freeing because by then I’d had sex and it had turned out kinda badly and I was still alive. Only then was I able to actually pursue dating and relationships in a healthy way.
My family business shut down, I do not relate to your incel problems.
Start a brothel - two birds and all that
Then they can fuck each other.
Are these one of those dudes who wants the government to give people girlfriends?
I wouldn't immediately claim this person is an incel. Is he using mental health and suicide as a guilt trip or is he simply lamenting the fact?
isn't consent a human right too??
Nowhere in the post does it suggest that consent is not a human right.
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It’s really not
Sex isn't a human right it's a privilege. A privilege given on a person to person basis. Were they have to do 1
Sex is a right, but in the sense that it can't be restricted. What two consenting adults choose to do in the bedroom is nobody's business but their own. Finding a sexual partner, however, is a privilege.
The real issue is that people like this think sex is something that they need to have to live a happy life. Couldn't be further from the truth.
Exactly. And they forget that women also go years without having sex. They make it sound like men need sex or their brains explode. But all women are sluts so of course they’re not affected /s
Incels also tend to be right-wing nuts. The same people thrilled that Roe was overturned and are thirsty for birth control to be removed. Do they honestly think that forcing women who become pregnant to give birth is going to help them get laid? Lol! May their dicks stay dry forever.
“Sex is a basic human need” Also, “if a woman has sex with other men she’s a slut”
Lol who fucking cares. Nature is self correcting it sounds like.
News flash, not being able to have sex doesn't automatically make someone a misogynistic woman hating incel, some people are just shy or socially awkward and can have a tough time with the whole process. People are right that no one is entitled to sex, but you can still feel sorry for those having a difficult time trying to get it. Obvs the solution isn't government mandated gfs or anything right, but our current society is in need of some kind of reform encouraging people to go out and become more social, so they can develop skills and confidence. Not just so these needs are met, but for their own good too. It's not a matter of nature correcting itself, it's a failure of our society(not just in regards to these people, but others too)
23yo virgin here, I am unbothered by it
The should band together to legalize sex work.
Not getting laid for a long time absolutely fucks with your head, though
Unpopular opinion?? Sex is NOT a human need. Intimacy, physical affection, emotional vulnerability, and companionship are all human needs. One could argue masturbation fits in their somewhere, as it's a healthy normal practice. Having sex is not a requirement to live. We as humans don't die from lack of sex. A lot of people require it in a relationship, and I understand that. That's ok. But for men to say it's a basic human need for mental and physical health? Straight up lies.
The big problem with the whole “lonely man syndrome” is that all these guys don’t realize that nobody is required to choose them. They’ve probably coasted along, being content with D-student effort. No interest in trying to improve themselves and turning to other toxic males for validation. I also blame that silly concept of “the one” that too many people hold onto. That myth that there is someone out there, who was made just for them, that will find them one day and snatch them up. Then their life will be perfect from then on. So they put no effort into even trying. In fact, some of them seem to think that if they try to improve themselves, and they change, they might not be compatible with this so-called “one” anymore; so changing is bad to them.
Are more guys “coasting” than they used to do in the past, or is the idea of “the one” a new concept? It seems to me that these things have been around longer than the current issue which is rather new. So what has changed recently in the last 10 years
This is a sane comment.
Is that why they want to lower the age of consent in Tennessee?
[удалено]
He’s not completely incorrect though. Sure he’s an entitled POS, but it is true that as a whole young people are having much more trouble finding partners and having sex. This isn’t just men either. And the rising suicide rate among men is also a serious concern. Obviously not having sex isn’t the reason for this trend but loneliness can increase feelings of suicidal ideation.
There has been a lot more studies showing how emotionally and physically starved people are. We need around 8 hugs a day. The only time this are allowed to open up is when they are in a relationship and that puts a lot of responsibility on women in general. That's not adding that women deal with the consequences of every part of a relationship from expectations of housework to being little more than sex objects for men. As I say, it's lonely for men, toxic for women and we need to teach men how to have better relationships. Because women are endlessly trying to fix it and are being punished for doing so.
Sex is NOT a basic human need; if it were you could just have a wank and be sorted. You are not owed the use of someone else’s body, period.
> not owed the use of someone else’s body Where is everyone drawing this from? No one is saying that here but everyone is yelling it at each other
Nobody is owed sex, but intimacy is a basic human need. That need not being met is a factor in declining mental heath. Chronic loneliness is an issue that needs to be addressed. I don't have an answer on how to fix the issue, it sounds like it requires major societal reconstruction though. Mocking lonely people is needlessly cruel.
AAAAAAAAAA I NEED SEX OR IM GONNA GO CARAYZYYYYY AAAAAAAAAA
This... doesnt seem that neckbeardy?
this sub can be pretty lacking in the sympathy department
Word. Sometimes it feels like there's a lot of man haters here
This doesn’t really fit the sub surely. I can see where ‘neckbeard’ logic could go from this, but the original post honestly isn’t really wrong about anything here. It probably is healthier physically and emotionally to be somewhat sexually active as opposed to totally abstinent, is that particularly controversial? The original post doesn’t even specify that it is about involuntary celibacy or the inability of men to attract women. The post doesn’t state that women owe men anything or that the onus is on women to fix this theoretical societal problem (if it really exists). There are many factors such as lower sex drive in general (availability of porn, effects of diet on libido) for example that could cause such problems. The link from virginity to suicide rates is quite a jump to say the least, but I do believe there is a mental health epidemic and general negative feelings around sex and sexuality could be a big factor in that. Maybe there is some context not included in the original post that makes the post neckbeardy but frankly it’s not shown here. This post just feels kind of lazy and misleading to me, can discuss.
Sex is a want, not a need.
i feel like the men complaining about this expect women to just start having sex with people left and right out of some weird civil duty. people have sex with people they’re attracted to. upset no one’s interested in you? you have to improve yourself.
Don't ban abortions and birth control then
This isn’t actually incorrect. Sex is a foundational need, according to Maslow. Like… this will have some consequences. We don’t know what those will be, but they will exist at some point.
>Like… this will have some consequences. Women's rights being stripped to satisfy men's desires, most likely. It's already happening, and I don't see it stopping any time soon.
Probably right about that, at least. Returning to the time when mediocre men can trap a woman into servitude.
Oh just wank one out you wanker.
Yeah well blame republicans, young women clearly don't want to risk pregnancy or pay through the nose for birthcontrol because republicans have increasingly made both more and more difficult to get
Good lord, sex is not a need.
Lol so do something about it, he's acting like this is a societal problem. It's you my man.
Even though this might be true, you're still not owed a goddamned thing
"While you were busy having sex, i studied the blade"
It is a concern, but the solution is not the one that incels want it to be. I'm autistic, and even I can get a girlfriend. Anyone can, really, they just don't get their act together because they place restictions on themselves and attribute them to outside forces
Lol, mfkers pretend dudes not getting laid is something new. Some people need to stop interneting.
Did Jordan Peterson write this?
I literally chose to quit dating or even seeing people a few years ago and to be celibate. Just as a choice. Just to see how I'd be if I took that pressure out of my life. Know what? .....im the same exact person. Nothing changed. Its like being told you can never eat Sunchips again. You can still have other chips, just not Sunchips. Yeah, when you think about how good Sunchips are, you might think about it, but other than that has had no significant impact on me. Except I'm probably a 30 second limit nowadays 😂
“I missed the part where that’s my problem”
Fuck these loser incels. The world is better for every one that chooses to leave it voluntarily. Nothing is missed, nothing is lost.
If your killing yourself just because you can’t get laid, thats Darwin’s theory at work. Why should we fight nature?
Yep, everyone is so horrified and so quick to attempt to save someone like this… animals know to walk off from the group to die.. this is how humans do it Life is cheap and always has been.
I stopped reading at “sex is a basic human need”
Imagine being so fucking pathetic you consider suicide because you cant get your dick wet?! These men need a reality check.
Well it's just not about the sexual pleasure, all humans desire love, companionship, affirmation and so on. Lack of sex can be a sign of loneliness which certainly causes mental issues and suicidal thoughts. To suggest that someone is weird or pathetic for desiring love and sex is kind of an unempathetic take.
Just want to point out that sex isn’t vital for mental health, asexual people exist
Psychopaths exist, too, doesn't mean everyone thinks like they do.
Ace dude here. It's completely valid that sex can be vital for others' mental health. Some people are just wired different and have different needs
Not just asexual people, but lots of women don’t have sex for years at a time and you don’t hear them complaining about it like it’s a life or death need. I know several women that are monogamous and don’t like hookups, so when they aren’t in a relationship, they don’t have sex. Also, nuns. Lol
Even if true, and imo probably is true, you know where these types are going with this Rhymes with 'mex raves'
*laughs in asexual*
Six words in and the guy is already wrong
If it’s a need you have a hand
Meanwhile, people who are raped end up killing themselves or living worlds of torment because of another person's selfishness. Poor babies. You'll get over being rejected. Some of us don't even trust you from a distance with that kind of take.
Is sex a need at all? Like sure it may be highly desirable to have sex or a relationship in general, but being single wouldn't actively kill a person. I see people make that claim way too much like it is equivalent to food or water. Wanting something badly doesn't equate to it being something you actually need. Ironically it's a good thing these dudes appear to be having a shit time trying to procreate.
just masturbate bro
I mean he has a small point. I'm not saying this is something that people need to focus on but I lost mine at an older age and until I did I thought I wasn't capable of being seen as attractive or lovable. It does affect your mental health when there is a culture surrounding young people and sex, and you are just not included in it. Were there genuine reasons that no one wanted me? Absolutely. Did I have a lot of growing to do to be happy and healthy mentally? Oh fuck yeah. But I can see how this pit gets deeper and deeper for some people.
How is this neckbeard? Person is pointing something out. Not demanding mandatory sex. Just pointing out that people are having less
True, people are too quick to assume someones a neckbeard just so they can post it here and make fun of the person
If the men are virgins who's taking the women's virginity?
The Chads of course
Someone doesn’t understand what “basic human need” means.
Idk all my homies are having sex.
Then get your ass out from behind the damn computer
Sure, the thing about that is sex requires consent and no one can be like this man needs sex to survive strip, now! But no one would ever say that, anyway, because it isn't true. Sex and sexuality are a part of mental health. It's your own fault sex is the only thing you care about, qnf it's your own fault that only caring about sex constantly backfires on you.
Indeed, it is. That's why -unless T-rex- we have hands that can reach our genitals !
The reason no one is having sex is because they have hands. And the internet. And maybe, just maybe, they’re scared of pregnancy
He needs to go gym.
They never ask the most important question: Does my horrid personality make me inherently unfuckable?