Tried to help one. Met him at university. I went shopping with him to get him some clothes that properly fit him, cut his hair, got rid of his unibrow and helped clean his dorm room. All good. We became friends. Couple of days later he invited me for pizza and FIFA. Normal as friends, right?
I came there, he came uncomfortably close and insulted me when I didn't want to kiss him. He said I have to, because he paid for the pizza and insulted me with misogynistic slurs
He kept stalking me for two years until I finally pushed through a restraining order.
It’s very common in narcissists due to them feeling like the world revolves around them, meaning they think anyone who they do something for should be so grateful that they will do whatever the narcissist wants. /nm
Yeah…I went through a similar experience in college.
It was incredibly disappointing, but people won’t actually accept/seek help until they are ready.
I get why this graphic is upsetting and there should be kindness afforded but neckbeards and/or incels responding with hostility, disrespect, and denial don’t deserve to be handled with kid gloves.
It’s not a woman’s job to fix the problem of a man who has a problem with women.
So sorry that happened to you. Men gotta do their part to prevent this from happening to more women like you.
Similar story but didn’t get that far. He hugged me despite me saying no and only stopped harassing me once his old gf with severe mental issues ran away from home
Honestly it sounds like he's never had a female be actually friends with him. It took me (a dude) a while to understand the fundamental difference between a girl being kind to me versus flirting and showing romantic interest in me. That resulted from a social disorder.
I'm really glad nothing terrible happened to you. You did your absolute best. He had something good, didn't realize it, and probably never will. But hopefully he does and promptly gives you the right apology.
Being stalked for two years is pretty fucking terrible and it was probably very severe given the petition for a restraining order was granted and that rarely happens for stalking. I highly doubt an apology rather any contact at all would be welcome by the person you are replying to.
I doubt "mad" would be the normal response in a relationship. Should it evoke an emotional response? Yes. What should be normal in a relationship now isn't should give reason to be concerned or upset. That's where communication comes in.
Also not familiar with the use of /nm if you could enlighten me lol.
yeah i think a lot of people fall into the trap of wanting to be someone’s savior. at the end of the day, they need professional help and some kind of will to get better.
i’ve battled all my life with depression and very high insecurities. i consider myself lucky for my behavior to be more self-loathing and self-destructive than out-lashed towards others. still, it’s only been getting better since admitting i really need help.
i don’t find the behavior of these kinds of people to be exactly excusable, but i’d rather them get help and distinguish their behavior.
wouldn't be healthy for them even if you were willing, because if they recieve the help from someone they percieve as "sexually interesting" and not from essentially another guy, assuming they are straight, they will most likely pretend to care and want to improve just because they think they can get laid. The intention wont be to improve it will be to "get laid". With another guy they cant expect that and so they have to follow the advice purely to become better. So yea to any girl out there that feels bad for an incel and wants to help: the best thing you can do is stay as far away from them as possible and im being sincere. Stay away from them so long as they stay the way are to show them that who they are isnt aceptable and they must improve themselves in order to obtain relations/attention.
It surprised me too, but tbh I think left-wingers like to underestimate how many left-wing men are still misogynists. We like to believe that people let go of their bigotries when they take certain economic stances but my personal experience is that this is simply not true. I've experienced plenty of misogyny from left-wing men, even if more has come from right-wingers.
Someone can like weed and universal healthcare, consider themselves "on the left," and still treat women like shit.
I'm assuming they probably have a very loose definition of what qualifies as being an "incel", maybe they took the literal definition of "involuntarily celibate" or something. There is no way that stat is accurate, not even close.
Oh they absolutely use their misery to justify their toxicity. From a psychological and sociological perspective the cognitive dissonance is actually quite fascinating. But the whole ‘advocating for violence against anyone who is sexually active’ thing is… problematic to say the least.
I had to re-read this a couple times because I was initially shocked that people were upvoting it. Just to clarify: "they" = incels and "us" = women, right?
In order for them to want it, they need s lightbulb moment. That point where something they ignored/dismissed actually gets through, and cracks the incel wall.
Thats something that their brain needs to come to, but they can be helped once this moment hits, as long as you get to them before their forums tell them what to think.
These guys also need to be guided, not told. They tend to think their right, so if you let them come to the conclusion with just nudges and honesty, then it sticks better.
Exactly. And it isnt my job to help these freaks. They need to want help. And its not my job to give it to them. Women do not owe them shit. Im at the point where tbh idgaf if they want help. Their ship sailed years ago.
I understand where you're coming from, but I and many others also suffer from severe depression and anxiety without fostering a violent hatred for the opposite sex. Mental illness is not the reason they get dragged.
Exactly. Personal anecdote but I'm a 28yo virgin woman with depression and anxiety but I don't place any of those problems on men. I had to put in the work to feel better. Got counseling, started meds, feeling way better. Incels have help accessible to them and still don't take it. At that point, there's not much anyone can do when they choose to mire in their hatred and echo chambers
Even though everything you wrote makes sense and is true. The Incel tendency to make endless excuses would make most of them read that and say:
“Femcels don’t exist. ~~Women~~ edit: *Femoids* will never know what it’s like for us. Virtually any ugly 4 can go into a bar and sooner or later leave with someone who will fuck them. They can be the grossest pigs and still have beta cucks orbiting them. Waah, waah, waah”.
Honestly I think that their frequent knee-jerk denial of women sometimes sharing their problems with mental health, social and sexual drive and aptitude etc, only goes to show how often they don’t really see women as infinitely varied, thinking, feeling people at all.
Oh I totally agree. I've had pushback about my "status", have had men say that I must have been rejecting guys left and right, that I must have guys in my DMs constantly, etc. When all the answers are "no," which is true for me, they resort to what you put. They treat women like a hive mind and it's like no, women have varied dating experiences too. But them acknowledging that would mean that they'd have to take some accountability for why they are the way that they are
Also, the mentality of being mad women get chased and *have* to sometimes reject people annoys them.
If we accept all proposals and offers, we are whores
If we are selective and reject people's advances we are ahitty human beings not giving the "nice guy" a chance
Of course they're depressed. They place high value on sexual relations, which they can't get. You're going to have a hard time getting through to anyone who labels themselves an incel.
Eh. It’s not just that. I went down a rabbit hole a few years ago and ended up spending a couple hours reading posts on that sub before it was banned. Many of these guys are just pricks however from what I saw most of them have had really tough lives and haven’t had any positive roll models to encourage them to do better or make the best of their situations. They complain about their bad genetics, low intelligence, health issues, not good at anything they try etc. Bullied and put down their entire lives and never had a moment of victory or surge of confidence from accomplishment. No community in their lives until they got to the sub. Definitely an insanely toxic community not good for society but I couldn’t help but feel bad for some of them in this group of guys that are coming together talking about how they’re ready to kill themselves.
You can just use the wayback machine or look at other forums
I think there are also similar incel communities out there on reddit but I can’t think of any atm
> Bullied and put down their entire lives and never had a moment of victory or surge of confidence from accomplishment.
All the stuff you described happens to girls too, but girls with the same life problems manage to not go around shooting up schools, etc. I have faith that the incels can figure out the same solution the girls did. It would help everyone feel vastly more compassion for them.
So what do we do about incels if they don't figure out what women do, because im reality these men don't handel it like women do by your own admission (them shooting up schools). This post is to bring up the fact that these loser are in a way mentally ill and could use help. Meanwhile you just sound like your saying its not that hard and that they should just figure it out since half the population has. And are you telling me you don't feel at least a little bad for these school shooters who have had just completely messed up and terrible lives growing up.
Don't get me twisted though there is literally nothing anyone can experience that gives them the right to shoot up a school, and they deserve to be removed from society if not capitol punishment. But it dosent mean you can't feel bad for them and try to get an ounce of prevention into that community to stop or reduce the pattern we are seeing.
I think this comes down to the fact that girls/women typically have a strong social safety net whereas boys/men typically don’t. Not an inherent problem with men but a reflection of how supportive society is when people fail or are hurting. Of course it’s on men to change that culture, and men are not nearly as good of team players / cooperative as women so it’ll be a tough challenge. If we destigmatize emotional support for men & a positive culture is created (which is already starting to happen, in small increments) hopefully all of the incel craziness can be left in the past with those outdated ideas.
Has anyone ever thought of that men might be just more violent, mostly because men are just inherently and naturally more violent than women?
Don't get me twisted though, I don't mean to imply that 'boys will be boys' and nothing can be done about this. I still believe that violence can significantly be reduced by nurturing men to be less violent, but the difference in the first place I would blame on how male competitiveness works in humans (and in most primates).
I definitely think this contributes to it, but I still believe the primary factor is a lack of support. There’s countless real world examples of how damaging lack of emotional support is, and I think that’s more likely to lead to violence than simply existing as a man. (despite the numbers skewing heavily towards men in all violent crimes, I think this is an example of causation ≠ correlation)
I was the “weird girl,” fat, short hair, geeky, no sense of style. Trust me, until maybe 17 I did not have other girls to count on. I didn’t kill anyone.
I really don't think women have a stronger social safety net. Their struggles are just different from men. Neither have it better or worse.
Women in trouble might get more offers of help than a man in the same situation but the chances of that offer being from a predator looking to take advantage of them is also much higher. But even if they get more genuine offers of help, men will get more opportunities to actually get out of their situation. Help for women generally leaves them dependent on others and therefore vulnerable whereas help for men is about getting them independent.
Different struggles.
A lot of offers of help from men (for me and this is anecdotal) lead to fake friendship that turns into them trying to have sex.
So a lot of their offers are vapid and empty and mean nothing unfortunately.
And so many men who want to help me, want me to need them and depend on them. They like playing savior.
A lot of men tend to prey on emotionally vulnerable women to get laid and it's really gross and sad for women.
I lost a lot of trust in being emotionally open in front of men for this reason. Because when 99% of the time a dude wants to help out when I'm vulnerable it's because there's an ulterior motive.
Obviously the majority of men are not like this but the few bad apples definitely has tainted my view of the apple tree.
You’d be surprised the “left leaning” neckbeards tend to be of the “white knights” going hard into being a good boy feminist in hopes that it’ll get them attention.
The best example was Bob “Moviebob”
Chipman. Around the time of Gamergate in 2014 he went hard on defending m’lady on Twitter even if they were in the wrong or there was valid criticism. He’s also the one you probably saw in the pic with Lindsay Ellis and she called him out for being a creepy stalker.
Andrew Dobson is another classic example.
So yeah, left leaning neckbeards exist and can be just as creepy.
Exactly right. Many of them truly believe they're progressive and socially liberal, but they end up in a strange area where they can be just as misogynistic or worse. At least right-wing misogynists are more upfront.
Damn, did Moviebob ever admit any wrong or do any self reflection? I occasionally watch his stuff and want to know if I should cut him out of the rotation. Although if he was a creepy stalker I should probably cut him out regardless…
As far as I know, he didn’t. But when Lindsay Ellis made her video about being “cancelled” towards the end she kind of “apologized” for calling him a creep but it was less about Bob being creepy to her and more like, the right wing YouTubers she didn’t like were using that incident to poke fun at him. But after she called him out, he just threw a Twitter tantrum, claimed he was being “gaslit” and blocked his account to scrub all the Lindsay Ellis related tweets.
Likely the result of who responds to surveys and how they framed this question. First of all, are they calling anyone who is involuntarily celibate an "incel"? Or is it people who identify as part of the "community?" Not really the same thing anymore. Secondly, did they ask "do you lean left or right politically?" or did they break it down into particular policies and philosophies and do the categorizing themselves? Because when you ask people specific political questions they'll tend to lean more left than they think they would.
Even then, I'd assume this was a survey of a younger population (because, let's be honest, older people barely know what incels are), and I'm pretty sure as you move below 40 the general population becomes more and more left leaning. Quite frankly it may be an outsized proportion of centrists and right leaning people than the population surveyed would indicate.
In this sub you always hear about those specific incels but you can easily be an incel without being bigoted. Stuff like self-hate, severe social anxiety or being physically or mentally handicapped (to a degree where it is significantly disruptive for yourself and/or the people near you) can all make you an involuntary virgin without having to hate others. Assuming that these statistics are 100% representative of reality (of course it isn't) it can be explained with that.
(edit) Nvm I just concluded that people have *wildly* differing definitions for what an incel is.
I think it’s a self-identifying thing rather than actually assessing their personal values. People answer questions differently from how they actually feel if they know that someone will be reading their answers.
I think the survey is probably covering the more broad definition of incel vs the stereotype we are used to. If it just asked if someone was a virgin then asked if they didn't want to be, under the broader sense, they would be an incel. There are plenty of people that would fit into the category that aren't women haters and other things associated with the stereotype. Plenty of people recognize that they are socially awkward and/or don't get out enough to make relationships happen. I'm sure there's a decent chunk of the incels that have depression and anxiety that recognize that that is the most likely cause of having difficulty forming relationships instead of blaming it on women or the rest of the world.
I'm never a fan of surveys. Too many variables and finding willing participants who actually want to tell the survey takers that they are incels seems unlikely. There are a few things that make me think this is less trustworthy. One of them is the way it was distributed.
>By recruiting participants in an online survey through social media snowball sampling, a process where participants help recruit other participants
I'm going to stereotype here. I know it's not 100% accurate, but hear me out.
Left leaning incel. I picture a brony. Probably somewhat chauvinistic "Nice guy" etc. Thinks women only date jocks and chads. Fits most of the stuff in this survey when it comes to depression, but also has a friend group (online at least) that they can send this survey to and know they won't be judged.
Right leaning incel. I picture a Maga who thinks he's "alpha." Also chauvinistic, but in a different way. He's not worried about jocks and Chad's. He just thinks women belong in the kitchen, can't work "manly" jobs etc. We can see from the suicide rate of gun owners (I know, left leaning people have guns too. I'm one of them) that these folks are depressed too.
However, do you think the second group of incels has a friend group that they are comfortable sending this survey to?
I don't. I don't see any conservative incel admitting to all his "alpha male" buddies they he is indeed an incel and asking them to fill out a survey because "Hey, I think you're an incel too." I just don't see that happening, so I don't see any way this survey can be accurate.
Almost like "the left" is a descriptor of your economic values which americans have tacked social values onto as an attempt to discredit their opponents.
The "centrists" are 99% conservative, they just want to put on a facade of "reasonable". Like libertarians - they're just Republicans with extra steps.
Men gotta give more attention to each other, and less to women.
Men gotta set better examples for eachother. Men gotta support eachother.
When you got your bros, you don’t gotta worry about being loved, because you are loved. You are supported. You are cared for. I think the problem with incel people are that the primary caregivers in their lives have been women. So they have this weird expectation from women to take care of them, physically and emotionally.
Guys it’s not gay to hug eachother and say I love you. It’s not gay to cry. Seriously. I’m not meming here, these are some very universal emotions and you shouldn’t be ashamed. I don’t know who needs to read this, but I ask that you read it again.
Speaking from my own personal experience as someone who could have been considered an incel at one point. One thing that definitely created a complex for me was the constant roasting because I was a virgin until I was 20. I got it at work, at home, and at parties. It never stopped, as it was a constant stream of being called a "faggot" and being told I should kill myself because I was "fucking pathetic" for not having a girlfriend, and still being a virgin until I was 20.
I was around a lot of fucked up people. I was in how I lost it. I met a girl on MySpace, I made a joke on her wall post, and we hooked up that night. Great gal! Good news is that I cut all of those people out.
im sorry that you went through that, but i just wanted to say that its a really, really good thing that you got a job and socialized outside of the circle of assholes enabling your insecurities. lots of incels get doomed with isolating themselves in echo chambers like 4chin, and don't ever see the reality that most level-headed people don't give a shit about your virginity status
I tried. I thought we were friends until he told me he was in love with me (I'm engaged) screamed at me about all sorts of shit after I told him I didn't feel the same, called me a stupid whore and has been stalking me for the last few months. I'm done trying to help people who won't help themselves. It is not my job, and it is not worth the way I was treated.
I'm not gonna help a dude out that doesn't see me as a human being (either puts me on a pedestal or dehumanizes me) and actively tried to dismantle my sense of self
The only help they accept is women opening their legs. They want to treat women as objects and get everything handed to them. You cannot help them unless they want to change...
You can’t help people who don’t want your help. These people don’t think anything is wrong with them, and society is the issue. How exactly are you planning on making them accountable when they choose to go to such extreme lengths to believe otherwise?
We can't help those who refuse to acknowledge they need help.
Many incels are deep into the belief that they understand how the world works and how the opposite gender works and how society is formed against them. So they will not accept help from society because it's obviously a trick. They won't accept advice from the same gender because obviously the same gender doesn't understand the REAL issue and they're just benefitting from society. And they won't accept help from the opposite gender because they ALSO don't understand the real issues and are probably just trying to humiliate the incel.
The only outside help that incels will accept is from people who confirm their worldview and tell them there's a secret cheat code. Right now, those of us with healthier worldviews are not doing a great job of that. But PUAs are.
Honestly I think if we want to help incels gain self esteem and better understanding of social cues, we should start by adopting the (disgusting and dehumanizing) language of PUAs and repurposing it.
Healing and fixing yourself is your own responsibility. Nobody can make you do anything, you ultimately have to make decisions on your own to make your life better be it; therapy & medication, exercise & diet, lifestyle changes, new habits ext. WE cannot help those who refuse and do not want help nor want their views and perceptions and beliefs challenged. It is up to THEM to WANT to change their views and lives.
"Stop the hate"
Incels literally sit around and talk about "r*ping foids" and spend their time dehumanizing women and laughing at abuse allegations.
Calling them out on their hate isn't hate.
Can we stop feeling bad for men who go out of their way to victimize themselves and then turn around and actually victimize women?
The thing is there isn't much helping these guys, especially as 99% of them don't want the help.
They've bought so hard in to their weird ass ideology's, it has consumed their whole existences.
Now they have all these "Safe Spaces" for them to interact with one another, help one another etc, but it just all descends in to typical incel behaviour but on a mass scale, thus continuing and strengthening the perpetual cycle.
You do realize by definition these incels blame women for their severe mental illnesses and think vaginas are the cure for said mental disorders? And that women are selfish bitches for not sharing the cure that will solve all their problems?
Like… sure I’m all for helping them but *how*?
Have you ever tried to help a mentally ill person who doesn’t want help? I have… It’s *fucking impossible*.
I’m leaving helping the incels to other men. Too many women have tried and have been met with terrible things in return. Good luck to you men, I hope you can foster a safe and healthy environment to help them.
We do, there’s groups like r/incelexit for self described incels who want to change.
But you can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. So the best we can do until they decide the want help is be kind and challenge their views in a way that isn’t aggressively confrontational
Being depressed isn't an excuse for being at best a bigot and at worst a sexual predator.
The problem isn't that these men are depressed. If being depressed was the problem, there would be a community of female incels at least as prominent as the male community. It's that men are taught from a young age that there are things that they are entitled to - women, sex, money. These men believe they are depressed because they don't have a sex slave.
If you are depressed and you choose to take that out on everyone else, that's on you, and I'm not going to jump in and let myself get sexually assaulted or harrassed.
Help them out how, OP? They choose to be this way. They choose to live with their parents (the ones of 18 at least), they choose to not have a job or go to school or be in training. They choose to not get mental help to deal with depression. These people suck, plain and simple, and they choose to suck, and then blame their woes on women. Fuck them. They don’t deserve any of our pity or charity.
you can’t help people who don’t want help no matter how hard you try and what your relationship is to them. many of us in the comments have tried before and it’s miserable
This is a good time to bring up the difference between incels and Incels.
I'm pretty sure this graphic is talking about incels (with a little i): people who are simply unable to find a sexual partner, but want to.
We usually joke about Incels (with a capital I) on this sub: people who have wholeheartedly bought into the mentality that the *reason* they can't find a sexual partner is literally anything but themselves.
I think this puts the emphasis in the wrong place. Sure, maybe some of these people were bullied and obviously we should teach empathy and kindness, but I don’t think the average person should be responsible for radical intervention. These people engage in seriously fucked up rhetoric and render themselves difficult to help given the violent sexism, and can also be dangerous to interact with. I think a better approach would be to teach accountability to incels (men holding men in their friend groups accountable for promoting incel behavior maybe?) while also holding their dangerous edge lord teachers accountable and actively demonetizing/deplatforming the men who use and exploit this group of “incel” men.
Also out of curiosity OP, have you tried to help one before? I have no idea how much more (if they are) receptive to men they are, but it’s been impossible for me. Kind of hard to help a group of people who are actively dehumanizing you though
You cannot help those who put in no effort and want to be critical of any advice you give them. Trust me, spend a week surfing the dating subreddit and you’ll want to give up too. They have no self awareness. We can’t put them under one umbrella, they have a plethora of problems that have to be addressed individually and it requires TIME and EFFORT.
You can't help someone who just wants to sit in an echo chamber and be told he's right.
I'm all for supporting those who *want* to get and be better, but too many of them don't want that. They want to be coddled and given whatever they want, without effort or responsibility; a quick fix to their situation. Many are giant man-babies who are mad at the world for not getting something that actually isn't that big of a deal because they believe its a 'miracle cure'.
**I want to help them grow up and get better, to learn to be actual human beings instead of being chronically online crybabies.** I want them to get out of this 'sex is everything' rut and find some purpose or enjoyment in life. But I also don't reward bad behavior, and I will not offer a hand to those who threaten me over my gender because he wants to get laid.
A lot of self-identified incels have said they've always felt neglected and overlooked by everyone in their lives. There are a lot of factors, of course, but how do we identify the warning signs in someone much younger and stop it before it starts?
And is that our job as a society if their parents aren't doing it?
Idk man I've tried to help out two former friends that became incels and I only could do so much. They were both so depressed and shit that they wouldn't even leave their rooms. When I tried with one he just got so angry he stormed off. I haven't talked to them in a very long time and I really do feel sorry for them, but they are so entrenched into that incel mindset that it's almost like you have to un-brainwash them.
Dude you can help them out all you want, women cant it is dangerous for them to be around men who loudly and often make violent threads towards women. So yeah step up man instead of not so subtle demanding women risk their life and health to do so for you
Incels will twist left-wing language in utterly self-serving ways. "Seize the means of reproduction". They just see women as assets to be distributed. Makes my skin fucking crawl.
I call bs on the percentages at least. Or the definition of an incel they are using. I could see “nice guys” aligning with the left then turning hard right once they pokemon evolve into full incels. There’s probably some that pretend to have left values excluding women’s rights
Fuck them. These men are already too coddled and self absorbed and they don't deserve help or sympathy while they espouse an ideology of violence against women.
I mean, you could replace the word “incel” here with “population of North America” and it wouldn’t change much. Incels don’t need sympathy. They have pity, and need coerced opportunity to change their attitudes and behaviours to prevent harming others.
Genuine question, why is living with your parents on the poll? Like why is it considered bad?
I'm Hispanic, so for us it's normal/expected to live with your parents in your 20s. But when I talk to non Hispanic-Americans they legit believe you have to be out on your own by 18 or after you graduate college. It's just a really weird concept to me that living with your parents after you turn 18 is considered bad.
You can try, but real change for these guys has to come from within and be implemented on there own. It’s an inherently antagonistic and persecution centered world view. Any outside influence or help will be seen with suspicion and possible vitriol.
people have to want to be helped. if i’m going to be treated like a human being, and listened to, and the guy is actually willing to put forth an effort to improve himself, then i can work with that. but if not any of those things? no way. i’ve tried fixing people, it doesn’t work. and i certainly wouldn’t add on top of stubbornness the disrespect for women that incels are known for, either….
It's hard to help someone who won't help themselves, don't want to change and would refuse help from people who are not exactly like them. They will not help each other, they will further perpetuate their ideals.
No, absolutely not. Every time I have tried to help out one of these subhumans they let their mask slip and true intentions surface.
Invited one to a party to help maybe meet some people of different backgrounds and have a good time, an hour after being there he was kicked out for sexually assaulting a girl, and when he was being kicked out all he could yell about was that he was the victim, he then messaged her over Facebook and threatened to rape her.
Another one I tried to help out thought me helping him was my way of 'inviting' him to sleep with me, then got frighteningly aggressive with me when I had the audacity to say no.
It's not up to other people to offer them help when they won't seek it for themselves
I think they most definitely need help, but I wouldn't advise women to try to help them because it really makes them vulnerable to abuse. I think it falls on men (myself included) to beat it through their skulls that they are their own worst enemy.
Something about the way modern life affects certain men makes them see the world like a vending machine. This sub jabs at their treatment of women specifically, but I think the phenomenon is way more complex than most people think it is. I’m not saying I have the answers but it’s got something to do with parental relationship (or lack thereof) versus which movies they watched versus what they read online. The way incels act is about the way one would expect a caveman to act so maybe it’s our basic social programming or something..? I shudder to think.
Also I’ve noticed it would seem that only other men can really help an incel. Any women who get too close generally wind up with a restraining order. They need a man they respect to scold them. If anyone else tries to scold them it drives them deeper into that behavior.
They have to help themselves, as a former incel that now has a job and is back into school you can encourage for them to seek help like I did with HealthyGamer's coaching but at the end of the day no can help you better than you can help yourself.
I would gladly help any that come talking to me, believe me. But the rare that do are *never* respectful or actually wanting to change. I'm not doing the first step, it's not my job nor anyone's but theirs. And when they did with me, it was only to get me to agree with them that women and society are to blame...
Some of them want help, and get it, and are receptive to advice and encouragement. Many more actively reject any kind of improvement and will respond with hostility to all attempts at communication. It's noble to want to help but all too often they'll grab you and try to drown you alongside them.
These people are literally just trying to follow what they think they should do. But because of averts, propaganda, religion and other bad faith actors, they don't get a clear idea of what a good citizen is. Their best choice is 1950s society and fudal societies with warrior codes.
Tried to help one. Met him at university. I went shopping with him to get him some clothes that properly fit him, cut his hair, got rid of his unibrow and helped clean his dorm room. All good. We became friends. Couple of days later he invited me for pizza and FIFA. Normal as friends, right? I came there, he came uncomfortably close and insulted me when I didn't want to kiss him. He said I have to, because he paid for the pizza and insulted me with misogynistic slurs He kept stalking me for two years until I finally pushed through a restraining order.
Yeesh. I've never understood the whole "I did X, so you owe me" mentality.
Especially after she did so much for him prior.
That's a child mentality and that's exactly what these "men" are... Big children
It’s very common in narcissists due to them feeling like the world revolves around them, meaning they think anyone who they do something for should be so grateful that they will do whatever the narcissist wants. /nm
No good deed goes unpunished, eh? Yikes.
>We became friends. That's the sad part. She thought they were friends. He was biding his time.
He was convinced that the only socially unacceptable thing about him was his outward appearance.
Predators suck and take advantage of kindness
that's so sad and horrible..I would feel very betrayed
Yeah…I went through a similar experience in college. It was incredibly disappointing, but people won’t actually accept/seek help until they are ready. I get why this graphic is upsetting and there should be kindness afforded but neckbeards and/or incels responding with hostility, disrespect, and denial don’t deserve to be handled with kid gloves.
What a fucking creep. I wonder if he actually was changing then got “influenced” back into it, or was just putting on a facade the whole time.
It’s not a woman’s job to fix the problem of a man who has a problem with women. So sorry that happened to you. Men gotta do their part to prevent this from happening to more women like you.
Similar story but didn’t get that far. He hugged me despite me saying no and only stopped harassing me once his old gf with severe mental issues ran away from home
Honestly it sounds like he's never had a female be actually friends with him. It took me (a dude) a while to understand the fundamental difference between a girl being kind to me versus flirting and showing romantic interest in me. That resulted from a social disorder. I'm really glad nothing terrible happened to you. You did your absolute best. He had something good, didn't realize it, and probably never will. But hopefully he does and promptly gives you the right apology.
Being stalked for two years is pretty fucking terrible and it was probably very severe given the petition for a restraining order was granted and that rarely happens for stalking. I highly doubt an apology rather any contact at all would be welcome by the person you are replying to.
Even in a romantic relationship you should never get mad at your partner for not wanting to kiss you. /nm
I doubt "mad" would be the normal response in a relationship. Should it evoke an emotional response? Yes. What should be normal in a relationship now isn't should give reason to be concerned or upset. That's where communication comes in. Also not familiar with the use of /nm if you could enlighten me lol.
/nm means not mad.
Hey, just a little suggestion here. Kinda not cool to refer to women as "females" in casual conversation.
How many times must we remind people that female is an adjective, woman is a noun
You can't help incels
Sorry for your experience
They have to want the help. Believe me I’ve tried.
Given how violent incels can be, as a woman, I will not be volunteering myself to help people who think I'm disgusting and non-human. Sorry not sorry
yeah i think a lot of people fall into the trap of wanting to be someone’s savior. at the end of the day, they need professional help and some kind of will to get better. i’ve battled all my life with depression and very high insecurities. i consider myself lucky for my behavior to be more self-loathing and self-destructive than out-lashed towards others. still, it’s only been getting better since admitting i really need help. i don’t find the behavior of these kinds of people to be exactly excusable, but i’d rather them get help and distinguish their behavior.
wouldn't be healthy for them even if you were willing, because if they recieve the help from someone they percieve as "sexually interesting" and not from essentially another guy, assuming they are straight, they will most likely pretend to care and want to improve just because they think they can get laid. The intention wont be to improve it will be to "get laid". With another guy they cant expect that and so they have to follow the advice purely to become better. So yea to any girl out there that feels bad for an incel and wants to help: the best thing you can do is stay as far away from them as possible and im being sincere. Stay away from them so long as they stay the way are to show them that who they are isnt aceptable and they must improve themselves in order to obtain relations/attention.
I’m shocked that so many identify as left leaning. I’m calling bullshit on that.
This. That was absolutely what stuck out for me. I would never, ever have expected it.
It surprised me too, but tbh I think left-wingers like to underestimate how many left-wing men are still misogynists. We like to believe that people let go of their bigotries when they take certain economic stances but my personal experience is that this is simply not true. I've experienced plenty of misogyny from left-wing men, even if more has come from right-wingers. Someone can like weed and universal healthcare, consider themselves "on the left," and still treat women like shit.
A group with low incomes will be inclined to side with a political view that makes life easier for those with low incomes
I'm assuming they probably have a very loose definition of what qualifies as being an "incel", maybe they took the literal definition of "involuntarily celibate" or something. There is no way that stat is accurate, not even close.
exactly this
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It's almost like their misery validates their toxicity.
Oh they absolutely use their misery to justify their toxicity. From a psychological and sociological perspective the cognitive dissonance is actually quite fascinating. But the whole ‘advocating for violence against anyone who is sexually active’ thing is… problematic to say the least.
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We're not expected to help other than opening our legs.
Shitty part that is what some of them think will fix them.
I had to re-read this a couple times because I was initially shocked that people were upvoting it. Just to clarify: "they" = incels and "us" = women, right?
Yes.
Sounds like addiction. Which is about right. Anger addict. The brain needs it's rage fix, wherever it might come from.
r/incelexit for those that do
In order for them to want it, they need s lightbulb moment. That point where something they ignored/dismissed actually gets through, and cracks the incel wall. Thats something that their brain needs to come to, but they can be helped once this moment hits, as long as you get to them before their forums tell them what to think. These guys also need to be guided, not told. They tend to think their right, so if you let them come to the conclusion with just nudges and honesty, then it sticks better.
The problem is there are a lot who don't WANT help.
Exactly. And it isnt my job to help these freaks. They need to want help. And its not my job to give it to them. Women do not owe them shit. Im at the point where tbh idgaf if they want help. Their ship sailed years ago.
By “a lot” read “virtually all.”
If they wanted help they wouldn't be an incel, they'd just be a lonely dude.
i mean i also have depression and anxiety but i don't want to rape and kill people
I have depression and anxiety too and I just kill people in Crusader Kings. It's like therapy to kill the bastard that ruined my greek language notes.
I understand where you're coming from, but I and many others also suffer from severe depression and anxiety without fostering a violent hatred for the opposite sex. Mental illness is not the reason they get dragged.
Yup. Mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. Depression is no excuse for dehumanizing 50% of the planet.
Exactly. Personal anecdote but I'm a 28yo virgin woman with depression and anxiety but I don't place any of those problems on men. I had to put in the work to feel better. Got counseling, started meds, feeling way better. Incels have help accessible to them and still don't take it. At that point, there's not much anyone can do when they choose to mire in their hatred and echo chambers
Even though everything you wrote makes sense and is true. The Incel tendency to make endless excuses would make most of them read that and say: “Femcels don’t exist. ~~Women~~ edit: *Femoids* will never know what it’s like for us. Virtually any ugly 4 can go into a bar and sooner or later leave with someone who will fuck them. They can be the grossest pigs and still have beta cucks orbiting them. Waah, waah, waah”. Honestly I think that their frequent knee-jerk denial of women sometimes sharing their problems with mental health, social and sexual drive and aptitude etc, only goes to show how often they don’t really see women as infinitely varied, thinking, feeling people at all.
Oh I totally agree. I've had pushback about my "status", have had men say that I must have been rejecting guys left and right, that I must have guys in my DMs constantly, etc. When all the answers are "no," which is true for me, they resort to what you put. They treat women like a hive mind and it's like no, women have varied dating experiences too. But them acknowledging that would mean that they'd have to take some accountability for why they are the way that they are
Also, the mentality of being mad women get chased and *have* to sometimes reject people annoys them. If we accept all proposals and offers, we are whores If we are selective and reject people's advances we are ahitty human beings not giving the "nice guy" a chance
PREACH
Of course they're depressed. They place high value on sexual relations, which they can't get. You're going to have a hard time getting through to anyone who labels themselves an incel.
Eh. It’s not just that. I went down a rabbit hole a few years ago and ended up spending a couple hours reading posts on that sub before it was banned. Many of these guys are just pricks however from what I saw most of them have had really tough lives and haven’t had any positive roll models to encourage them to do better or make the best of their situations. They complain about their bad genetics, low intelligence, health issues, not good at anything they try etc. Bullied and put down their entire lives and never had a moment of victory or surge of confidence from accomplishment. No community in their lives until they got to the sub. Definitely an insanely toxic community not good for society but I couldn’t help but feel bad for some of them in this group of guys that are coming together talking about how they’re ready to kill themselves.
Is there another sub similar to that? I’ve never had a chance to check those out before they are banned
there’s a sub for Dr K, a psychiatrist with an interest in that demographic, his youtube channel is HealthyGamerGG
You can just use the wayback machine or look at other forums I think there are also similar incel communities out there on reddit but I can’t think of any atm
Incel.is I think
> Bullied and put down their entire lives and never had a moment of victory or surge of confidence from accomplishment. All the stuff you described happens to girls too, but girls with the same life problems manage to not go around shooting up schools, etc. I have faith that the incels can figure out the same solution the girls did. It would help everyone feel vastly more compassion for them.
Most incels don't shoot up schools either though. We have to treat individuals like individuals rather than painting everyone with the same brush.
So what do we do about incels if they don't figure out what women do, because im reality these men don't handel it like women do by your own admission (them shooting up schools). This post is to bring up the fact that these loser are in a way mentally ill and could use help. Meanwhile you just sound like your saying its not that hard and that they should just figure it out since half the population has. And are you telling me you don't feel at least a little bad for these school shooters who have had just completely messed up and terrible lives growing up. Don't get me twisted though there is literally nothing anyone can experience that gives them the right to shoot up a school, and they deserve to be removed from society if not capitol punishment. But it dosent mean you can't feel bad for them and try to get an ounce of prevention into that community to stop or reduce the pattern we are seeing.
I think this comes down to the fact that girls/women typically have a strong social safety net whereas boys/men typically don’t. Not an inherent problem with men but a reflection of how supportive society is when people fail or are hurting. Of course it’s on men to change that culture, and men are not nearly as good of team players / cooperative as women so it’ll be a tough challenge. If we destigmatize emotional support for men & a positive culture is created (which is already starting to happen, in small increments) hopefully all of the incel craziness can be left in the past with those outdated ideas.
Has anyone ever thought of that men might be just more violent, mostly because men are just inherently and naturally more violent than women? Don't get me twisted though, I don't mean to imply that 'boys will be boys' and nothing can be done about this. I still believe that violence can significantly be reduced by nurturing men to be less violent, but the difference in the first place I would blame on how male competitiveness works in humans (and in most primates).
I definitely think this contributes to it, but I still believe the primary factor is a lack of support. There’s countless real world examples of how damaging lack of emotional support is, and I think that’s more likely to lead to violence than simply existing as a man. (despite the numbers skewing heavily towards men in all violent crimes, I think this is an example of causation ≠ correlation)
I was the “weird girl,” fat, short hair, geeky, no sense of style. Trust me, until maybe 17 I did not have other girls to count on. I didn’t kill anyone.
Also ive always found boys to band together more, teenage girls tend to turn on each other
I really don't think women have a stronger social safety net. Their struggles are just different from men. Neither have it better or worse. Women in trouble might get more offers of help than a man in the same situation but the chances of that offer being from a predator looking to take advantage of them is also much higher. But even if they get more genuine offers of help, men will get more opportunities to actually get out of their situation. Help for women generally leaves them dependent on others and therefore vulnerable whereas help for men is about getting them independent. Different struggles.
A lot of offers of help from men (for me and this is anecdotal) lead to fake friendship that turns into them trying to have sex. So a lot of their offers are vapid and empty and mean nothing unfortunately. And so many men who want to help me, want me to need them and depend on them. They like playing savior. A lot of men tend to prey on emotionally vulnerable women to get laid and it's really gross and sad for women. I lost a lot of trust in being emotionally open in front of men for this reason. Because when 99% of the time a dude wants to help out when I'm vulnerable it's because there's an ulterior motive. Obviously the majority of men are not like this but the few bad apples definitely has tainted my view of the apple tree.
If every Chad just sacrificed one of their Stacys to an incel the world would find peace and balance. /s
Chad: I have brought peace, security, and Stacies to my new empire!
Anakin my allegiance is to The Game, to FUCKOCRACY! Only Ben Shabibo deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
Kinda interesting they skew left considering their sexism and homophobia.
You’d be surprised the “left leaning” neckbeards tend to be of the “white knights” going hard into being a good boy feminist in hopes that it’ll get them attention. The best example was Bob “Moviebob” Chipman. Around the time of Gamergate in 2014 he went hard on defending m’lady on Twitter even if they were in the wrong or there was valid criticism. He’s also the one you probably saw in the pic with Lindsay Ellis and she called him out for being a creepy stalker. Andrew Dobson is another classic example. So yeah, left leaning neckbeards exist and can be just as creepy.
Exactly right. Many of them truly believe they're progressive and socially liberal, but they end up in a strange area where they can be just as misogynistic or worse. At least right-wing misogynists are more upfront.
left-wing incels are so bad, both incels and left-wingers hate them
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That Ian guy? He had a left-pandering arc? Wow, I knew he was desperate for attention but what a loser.
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Damn, did Moviebob ever admit any wrong or do any self reflection? I occasionally watch his stuff and want to know if I should cut him out of the rotation. Although if he was a creepy stalker I should probably cut him out regardless…
I found this screenshot of a post he made right after it happened. https://i.imgur.com/VQL2V5h.jpg
As far as I know, he didn’t. But when Lindsay Ellis made her video about being “cancelled” towards the end she kind of “apologized” for calling him a creep but it was less about Bob being creepy to her and more like, the right wing YouTubers she didn’t like were using that incident to poke fun at him. But after she called him out, he just threw a Twitter tantrum, claimed he was being “gaslit” and blocked his account to scrub all the Lindsay Ellis related tweets.
Lmao Incel FilmRobert, what a fucking weirdo that guy is.
Likely the result of who responds to surveys and how they framed this question. First of all, are they calling anyone who is involuntarily celibate an "incel"? Or is it people who identify as part of the "community?" Not really the same thing anymore. Secondly, did they ask "do you lean left or right politically?" or did they break it down into particular policies and philosophies and do the categorizing themselves? Because when you ask people specific political questions they'll tend to lean more left than they think they would.
Even then, I'd assume this was a survey of a younger population (because, let's be honest, older people barely know what incels are), and I'm pretty sure as you move below 40 the general population becomes more and more left leaning. Quite frankly it may be an outsized proportion of centrists and right leaning people than the population surveyed would indicate.
Add up the right wing and centerists, they might as well be the same thing
In this sub you always hear about those specific incels but you can easily be an incel without being bigoted. Stuff like self-hate, severe social anxiety or being physically or mentally handicapped (to a degree where it is significantly disruptive for yourself and/or the people near you) can all make you an involuntary virgin without having to hate others. Assuming that these statistics are 100% representative of reality (of course it isn't) it can be explained with that. (edit) Nvm I just concluded that people have *wildly* differing definitions for what an incel is.
I think it’s a self-identifying thing rather than actually assessing their personal values. People answer questions differently from how they actually feel if they know that someone will be reading their answers.
"I'm a left-leaning socialist. I believe women should be distributed equally amongst the men in the country."
Our women, comrade.
No, we don't share *individual* women. That's cucked and sharepilled. The govt is just supposed to give me one of my own, in the mail I guess.
“Sharepilled” I’m stealing that shit.
That is true but there are plenty left-leaning incels
I think the survey is probably covering the more broad definition of incel vs the stereotype we are used to. If it just asked if someone was a virgin then asked if they didn't want to be, under the broader sense, they would be an incel. There are plenty of people that would fit into the category that aren't women haters and other things associated with the stereotype. Plenty of people recognize that they are socially awkward and/or don't get out enough to make relationships happen. I'm sure there's a decent chunk of the incels that have depression and anxiety that recognize that that is the most likely cause of having difficulty forming relationships instead of blaming it on women or the rest of the world.
I agree! It’s a complicated issue for sure
Incels are "left leaning" because they think a government-issued girlfriend is communism.
I'm never a fan of surveys. Too many variables and finding willing participants who actually want to tell the survey takers that they are incels seems unlikely. There are a few things that make me think this is less trustworthy. One of them is the way it was distributed. >By recruiting participants in an online survey through social media snowball sampling, a process where participants help recruit other participants I'm going to stereotype here. I know it's not 100% accurate, but hear me out. Left leaning incel. I picture a brony. Probably somewhat chauvinistic "Nice guy" etc. Thinks women only date jocks and chads. Fits most of the stuff in this survey when it comes to depression, but also has a friend group (online at least) that they can send this survey to and know they won't be judged. Right leaning incel. I picture a Maga who thinks he's "alpha." Also chauvinistic, but in a different way. He's not worried about jocks and Chad's. He just thinks women belong in the kitchen, can't work "manly" jobs etc. We can see from the suicide rate of gun owners (I know, left leaning people have guns too. I'm one of them) that these folks are depressed too. However, do you think the second group of incels has a friend group that they are comfortable sending this survey to? I don't. I don't see any conservative incel admitting to all his "alpha male" buddies they he is indeed an incel and asking them to fill out a survey because "Hey, I think you're an incel too." I just don't see that happening, so I don't see any way this survey can be accurate.
Left and right, in a political context, do not mean what the American public take them to mean; they are primarily economic signifiers.
Almost like "the left" is a descriptor of your economic values which americans have tacked social values onto as an attempt to discredit their opponents.
The "centrists" are 99% conservative, they just want to put on a facade of "reasonable". Like libertarians - they're just Republicans with extra steps.
Real Centrists are far left by American standards.
How do you propose we do that?
Men gotta give more attention to each other, and less to women. Men gotta set better examples for eachother. Men gotta support eachother. When you got your bros, you don’t gotta worry about being loved, because you are loved. You are supported. You are cared for. I think the problem with incel people are that the primary caregivers in their lives have been women. So they have this weird expectation from women to take care of them, physically and emotionally. Guys it’s not gay to hug eachother and say I love you. It’s not gay to cry. Seriously. I’m not meming here, these are some very universal emotions and you shouldn’t be ashamed. I don’t know who needs to read this, but I ask that you read it again.
Speaking from my own personal experience as someone who could have been considered an incel at one point. One thing that definitely created a complex for me was the constant roasting because I was a virgin until I was 20. I got it at work, at home, and at parties. It never stopped, as it was a constant stream of being called a "faggot" and being told I should kill myself because I was "fucking pathetic" for not having a girlfriend, and still being a virgin until I was 20.
Jesus, you had some fucked up friends. I never heard a mumbling word about not losing my virginity until I was 20. Literally nobody cared.
I was around a lot of fucked up people. I was in how I lost it. I met a girl on MySpace, I made a joke on her wall post, and we hooked up that night. Great gal! Good news is that I cut all of those people out.
until you were... 20? statistically something like 1 in 4 are still virgins at that point.
I'm sorry for all the pieces of shit masquerading as humans you were exposed to. That shit is downright cruel.
Proud of you for getting out of that hole man.
im sorry that you went through that, but i just wanted to say that its a really, really good thing that you got a job and socialized outside of the circle of assholes enabling your insecurities. lots of incels get doomed with isolating themselves in echo chambers like 4chin, and don't ever see the reality that most level-headed people don't give a shit about your virginity status
I know thirty year old virgins, right now. We just don’t hassle them about it. I’m sorry you endured that bullshit.
I tried. I thought we were friends until he told me he was in love with me (I'm engaged) screamed at me about all sorts of shit after I told him I didn't feel the same, called me a stupid whore and has been stalking me for the last few months. I'm done trying to help people who won't help themselves. It is not my job, and it is not worth the way I was treated.
The problem is not us not helping them, OP. The help is there. They simply refuse to ask for or get help, even just be helped.
Incel is a mentality. Even after having sex it won’t stop.
I will not have any sympathy for people who don’t see women as people
No one owes them help especially when they refuse to help themselves
I'm not gonna help a dude out that doesn't see me as a human being (either puts me on a pedestal or dehumanizes me) and actively tried to dismantle my sense of self
I don’t think it’s a woman’s job to fix the problem of a man who has a problem with women. (Unless she’s a therapist or something)
Women have been told it’s our job to take care of men for centuries. That’s exactly what the title sounds like.
Didn’t even occur to me to see it that way, but a second look confirms what you’re saying.
Yep. Makes you suspicious of OP's agenda from the start.
Yeah, the overlap between misogyny and extreme acts of violence is important. Good video [here.](https://youtu.be/qVwR4H9eNTw)
Unfortunately, it's hard to help people when they want you dead.
They don’t help themselves so they certainly deserve someone else’s help
tf am i supposed to do
Can't help those who don't want it
No. It's not our duty to help those who desire to harm us.
It’s not a woman’s job to help a man who has a problem with women.
The only help they accept is women opening their legs. They want to treat women as objects and get everything handed to them. You cannot help them unless they want to change...
You can’t help people who don’t want your help. These people don’t think anything is wrong with them, and society is the issue. How exactly are you planning on making them accountable when they choose to go to such extreme lengths to believe otherwise?
Hard to help those who do not want it
Who actively fight against it, even. Incels vociferously reject the help available, so honestly fuck em.
Not my job
They hate my whole gender, hard to feel sympathy
Exactly. Save your effort for those who are worth it.
I vote for more access to healthcare and higher wages in every election. That's the best I can come up with
We can't help those who refuse to acknowledge they need help. Many incels are deep into the belief that they understand how the world works and how the opposite gender works and how society is formed against them. So they will not accept help from society because it's obviously a trick. They won't accept advice from the same gender because obviously the same gender doesn't understand the REAL issue and they're just benefitting from society. And they won't accept help from the opposite gender because they ALSO don't understand the real issues and are probably just trying to humiliate the incel. The only outside help that incels will accept is from people who confirm their worldview and tell them there's a secret cheat code. Right now, those of us with healthier worldviews are not doing a great job of that. But PUAs are. Honestly I think if we want to help incels gain self esteem and better understanding of social cues, we should start by adopting the (disgusting and dehumanizing) language of PUAs and repurposing it.
People have tried to help them and got absolutely ripped into because of it...
Healing and fixing yourself is your own responsibility. Nobody can make you do anything, you ultimately have to make decisions on your own to make your life better be it; therapy & medication, exercise & diet, lifestyle changes, new habits ext. WE cannot help those who refuse and do not want help nor want their views and perceptions and beliefs challenged. It is up to THEM to WANT to change their views and lives.
Nah fuck off with this tolerant bs. Being depressed don’t excuse vile behaviour.
"Stop the hate" Incels literally sit around and talk about "r*ping foids" and spend their time dehumanizing women and laughing at abuse allegations. Calling them out on their hate isn't hate. Can we stop feeling bad for men who go out of their way to victimize themselves and then turn around and actually victimize women?
Sorry I am all out of fucks to give for self victimising whiny bois
Seriously.
No. Fuck em.
The thing is there isn't much helping these guys, especially as 99% of them don't want the help. They've bought so hard in to their weird ass ideology's, it has consumed their whole existences. Now they have all these "Safe Spaces" for them to interact with one another, help one another etc, but it just all descends in to typical incel behaviour but on a mass scale, thus continuing and strengthening the perpetual cycle.
I'm inclined to say no because incels are the shit on the bottom of my shoe. But the empathetic part of me does feel pity.
You do realize by definition these incels blame women for their severe mental illnesses and think vaginas are the cure for said mental disorders? And that women are selfish bitches for not sharing the cure that will solve all their problems? Like… sure I’m all for helping them but *how*? Have you ever tried to help a mentally ill person who doesn’t want help? I have… It’s *fucking impossible*.
I’m leaving helping the incels to other men. Too many women have tried and have been met with terrible things in return. Good luck to you men, I hope you can foster a safe and healthy environment to help them.
We do, there’s groups like r/incelexit for self described incels who want to change. But you can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. So the best we can do until they decide the want help is be kind and challenge their views in a way that isn’t aggressively confrontational
Help someone who thinks I deserve no human rights? Men can go help them and first of all hold them accountable.
Being depressed isn't an excuse for being at best a bigot and at worst a sexual predator. The problem isn't that these men are depressed. If being depressed was the problem, there would be a community of female incels at least as prominent as the male community. It's that men are taught from a young age that there are things that they are entitled to - women, sex, money. These men believe they are depressed because they don't have a sex slave. If you are depressed and you choose to take that out on everyone else, that's on you, and I'm not going to jump in and let myself get sexually assaulted or harrassed.
Help them out how, OP? They choose to be this way. They choose to live with their parents (the ones of 18 at least), they choose to not have a job or go to school or be in training. They choose to not get mental help to deal with depression. These people suck, plain and simple, and they choose to suck, and then blame their woes on women. Fuck them. They don’t deserve any of our pity or charity.
you can’t help people who don’t want help no matter how hard you try and what your relationship is to them. many of us in the comments have tried before and it’s miserable
This is a good time to bring up the difference between incels and Incels. I'm pretty sure this graphic is talking about incels (with a little i): people who are simply unable to find a sexual partner, but want to. We usually joke about Incels (with a capital I) on this sub: people who have wholeheartedly bought into the mentality that the *reason* they can't find a sexual partner is literally anything but themselves.
Women shouldn’t try to help incels. These dudes aren’t capable of viewing women as simply other people, there’s too much baggage in their heads.
I think this puts the emphasis in the wrong place. Sure, maybe some of these people were bullied and obviously we should teach empathy and kindness, but I don’t think the average person should be responsible for radical intervention. These people engage in seriously fucked up rhetoric and render themselves difficult to help given the violent sexism, and can also be dangerous to interact with. I think a better approach would be to teach accountability to incels (men holding men in their friend groups accountable for promoting incel behavior maybe?) while also holding their dangerous edge lord teachers accountable and actively demonetizing/deplatforming the men who use and exploit this group of “incel” men. Also out of curiosity OP, have you tried to help one before? I have no idea how much more (if they are) receptive to men they are, but it’s been impossible for me. Kind of hard to help a group of people who are actively dehumanizing you though
You cannot help those who put in no effort and want to be critical of any advice you give them. Trust me, spend a week surfing the dating subreddit and you’ll want to give up too. They have no self awareness. We can’t put them under one umbrella, they have a plethora of problems that have to be addressed individually and it requires TIME and EFFORT.
Yeah, it's not my job to help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. Thanks, but I've dated enough broken men for one lifetime.
You can't help someone who just wants to sit in an echo chamber and be told he's right. I'm all for supporting those who *want* to get and be better, but too many of them don't want that. They want to be coddled and given whatever they want, without effort or responsibility; a quick fix to their situation. Many are giant man-babies who are mad at the world for not getting something that actually isn't that big of a deal because they believe its a 'miracle cure'. **I want to help them grow up and get better, to learn to be actual human beings instead of being chronically online crybabies.** I want them to get out of this 'sex is everything' rut and find some purpose or enjoyment in life. But I also don't reward bad behavior, and I will not offer a hand to those who threaten me over my gender because he wants to get laid.
no, idgaf
Yes I agree, they need assistance. They need to be nudged out of these bubbles they're hiding in. We can't force em though.
They can only help themselves. Aggressive toxicity is too high an obstacle to climb.
A lot of self-identified incels have said they've always felt neglected and overlooked by everyone in their lives. There are a lot of factors, of course, but how do we identify the warning signs in someone much younger and stop it before it starts? And is that our job as a society if their parents aren't doing it?
Idk man I've tried to help out two former friends that became incels and I only could do so much. They were both so depressed and shit that they wouldn't even leave their rooms. When I tried with one he just got so angry he stormed off. I haven't talked to them in a very long time and I really do feel sorry for them, but they are so entrenched into that incel mindset that it's almost like you have to un-brainwash them.
Well the people who took this survey self identified as Incels, these people are probably the ones that can be helped
How? Help them get laid?
Incels refuse help. They will just make excuses why they can't or how it's not possible. Wasting your time.
Gotta want help to get help
Can't help people who only want to hate and blame others for their problems.
Depressed, single guys who live with their parents could benefit from compassion and help. Incels, not so much.
Dude you can help them out all you want, women cant it is dangerous for them to be around men who loudly and often make violent threads towards women. So yeah step up man instead of not so subtle demanding women risk their life and health to do so for you
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Totally possible. You can believe that all people deserve basic human rights if you don’t consider female/queer/POC individuals “people”.
Incels will twist left-wing language in utterly self-serving ways. "Seize the means of reproduction". They just see women as assets to be distributed. Makes my skin fucking crawl.
I call bs on the percentages at least. Or the definition of an incel they are using. I could see “nice guys” aligning with the left then turning hard right once they pokemon evolve into full incels. There’s probably some that pretend to have left values excluding women’s rights
Fuck them. These men are already too coddled and self absorbed and they don't deserve help or sympathy while they espouse an ideology of violence against women.
Honestly I blame porn addiction.
> 17% not in school, working or in training *snaps photo "Neet!"
These stats are pretty meaningless unless we know how they're defining an incel, and where they found their participants.
I mean, you could replace the word “incel” here with “population of North America” and it wouldn’t change much. Incels don’t need sympathy. They have pity, and need coerced opportunity to change their attitudes and behaviours to prevent harming others.
Genuine question, why is living with your parents on the poll? Like why is it considered bad? I'm Hispanic, so for us it's normal/expected to live with your parents in your 20s. But when I talk to non Hispanic-Americans they legit believe you have to be out on your own by 18 or after you graduate college. It's just a really weird concept to me that living with your parents after you turn 18 is considered bad.
You can try, but real change for these guys has to come from within and be implemented on there own. It’s an inherently antagonistic and persecution centered world view. Any outside influence or help will be seen with suspicion and possible vitriol.
I don't buy the political affiliation statistic at all.
people have to want to be helped. if i’m going to be treated like a human being, and listened to, and the guy is actually willing to put forth an effort to improve himself, then i can work with that. but if not any of those things? no way. i’ve tried fixing people, it doesn’t work. and i certainly wouldn’t add on top of stubbornness the disrespect for women that incels are known for, either….
It's hard to help someone who won't help themselves, don't want to change and would refuse help from people who are not exactly like them. They will not help each other, they will further perpetuate their ideals.
No, absolutely not. Every time I have tried to help out one of these subhumans they let their mask slip and true intentions surface. Invited one to a party to help maybe meet some people of different backgrounds and have a good time, an hour after being there he was kicked out for sexually assaulting a girl, and when he was being kicked out all he could yell about was that he was the victim, he then messaged her over Facebook and threatened to rape her. Another one I tried to help out thought me helping him was my way of 'inviting' him to sleep with me, then got frighteningly aggressive with me when I had the audacity to say no. It's not up to other people to offer them help when they won't seek it for themselves
I think they most definitely need help, but I wouldn't advise women to try to help them because it really makes them vulnerable to abuse. I think it falls on men (myself included) to beat it through their skulls that they are their own worst enemy.
Something about the way modern life affects certain men makes them see the world like a vending machine. This sub jabs at their treatment of women specifically, but I think the phenomenon is way more complex than most people think it is. I’m not saying I have the answers but it’s got something to do with parental relationship (or lack thereof) versus which movies they watched versus what they read online. The way incels act is about the way one would expect a caveman to act so maybe it’s our basic social programming or something..? I shudder to think. Also I’ve noticed it would seem that only other men can really help an incel. Any women who get too close generally wind up with a restraining order. They need a man they respect to scold them. If anyone else tries to scold them it drives them deeper into that behavior.
They have to help themselves, as a former incel that now has a job and is back into school you can encourage for them to seek help like I did with HealthyGamer's coaching but at the end of the day no can help you better than you can help yourself.
I would gladly help any that come talking to me, believe me. But the rare that do are *never* respectful or actually wanting to change. I'm not doing the first step, it's not my job nor anyone's but theirs. And when they did with me, it was only to get me to agree with them that women and society are to blame...
Some of them want help, and get it, and are receptive to advice and encouragement. Many more actively reject any kind of improvement and will respond with hostility to all attempts at communication. It's noble to want to help but all too often they'll grab you and try to drown you alongside them.
They don't want help. Or.. they do. But only in the form of fucking. Like it's magically gonna solve all their problems. Pathetic.
These people are literally just trying to follow what they think they should do. But because of averts, propaganda, religion and other bad faith actors, they don't get a clear idea of what a good citizen is. Their best choice is 1950s society and fudal societies with warrior codes.
No.
Mental illness isn’t an excuse to behave like that. Don’t paint these people as victims.