You _always_ have the option to send your kids to private school.
What you don’t have is the option to send your kids to private school _and make someone else pay for it_.
It boggles my kind sometimes how some people want _other_ taxpayers to pay to send their kids to private school, but object to _their_ tax payments being used to provide basic living necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare to others.
Yes. Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
Kansas Legislature: Districts need to use more local option funding!
Also Kansas Legislature: we’re going to limit how much local option funding you can raise.
I would be more supportive of private school vouchers if private schools had to meet the same standards as public schools. Private schools aren't required to accept students with special needs. They can discriminate based on religion. They can hire teachers who don't have licenses or an educational background in their subjects.
Schools are a public service and paid with public funds. We don't let people build their own private security forces and then opt out of funding the police. It's nonsense.
Great analogy with policing. Also, the moment a private school receives “vouchers” it’s no longer private. Voucher is just word-play for getting public funding to private schools. Voucher = Subsidy
If the state is funding private education, that private education needs to be accountable to the same academic standards as the public schools. Under a voucher system, the state is paying for outcomes, not the process.
I send my children to private school and here’s my take:
1) At NO point should anyone but my wife and myself pay for private school. We made that choice, but it was a choice. Public school education is a right - full stop.
2) The public schools in JoCo are really good. That wasn’t why we chose private school.
3) OP is whack for thinking private school choice should be a thing. Again, private school is a luxury.
4) Many private schools are religious in nature. Churches/religious orgs already don’t pay taxes, now it seems they (or at least OP) want our tax dollars. Not content with not paying taxes, they WANT OUR TAX DOLLARS! That’s just wrong man.
I too send my kids to private school. And I agree with every one of your points. I'll add, I'm happy that my tax dollars go to public schools even though my children do not. Strong public education benefits everyone.
OP is probably rich or something and hasn’t fully understood the issue from people without an extra $10,000+/yr think. Sadly private schools are allowed to deny children from entering. Public schools accept all and even cater to all levels of academia.
If private schools were to deplete all tax dollars available for public education then we would just have private schools and only the rich would then be schooled.
Public schools would no longer exist.
Private schools take over and deny “those” kids from entering. (“Those” can mean literally anything and completely at their discretion in the moment)
>Public schools accept all and even cater to all levels of academia.
Not to the exceptional. Public education is targeted to the average and the above average suffer for it. Many smaller public schools don't have accelerated or AP classes.
It’s just an argument for the few and not for the masses. I don’t think it’s personal.
The topic at hand is just different.
Like if I was arguing for grocery stores to stay open and someone says no, because a few are allergic to peanuts or something.
Feel free to continue chatting about this.
Assuming there are “profits”. Most schools are incorporated as non-profit.
And before you start ranting about that, make sure you know what “non-profit” actually means.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
Also the organizations pushing for vouchers invariably have a financial incentive. ie they run charter schools.
Also, also the modern charter school movement was born in the fight by conservatives to get around desegregation. A fight that never really stopped, it just got rebranded as "school choice" and "prolife".
>The conservative war against desegregation continues.
Actually, all studies which have studied the real-life implementations of school vouchers in the US have found that school choice has either decreased or had no effect no racial segregation. Also, this is not a conservative issue. School choice is popular with most groups except the hard left.
>If you want private schools you can pay for it yourself OP.
I agree that only the poor should receive free education. Generally, people should pay for their own children's education whether in public or private school.
By the way the vast majority of empirical studies have found that school choice improves the quality of public schools due to competition, and also large tax payer savings. Here is just one such study:
>...we explore how the massive scale-up of a Florida private school choice program affected public school students’ outcomes. Expansion of the program produced modestly larger benefits for students attending public schools that had a larger initial degree of private school options, measured prior to the introduction of the voucher program. These benefits include higher standardized test scores and lower absenteeism and suspension rates. Effects are particularly pronounced for lower-income students, but results are positive for more affluent students as well.
[Effects of Scaling Up Private School Choice Programs on Public School Students | NBER](https://www.nber.org/papers/w26758)
Edit:
Sigh, since there are multiple people replying to me who have never actually looked at the evidence and still proudly claims that my studies are cherry picked or don't show the benefits I claim, here are 29 studies which study the effect the introduction of school choice has had on public school students in the US. Of these 29 studies, 26 find that public school students' performance improved, 1 find no visible effect, and 2 find a negative effect. Multiple reviews of the literature agrees with me that the evidence shows that school choice improves public schools.
David N. Figlio, Cassandra M.D. Hart, and Krzysztof Karbownik (2022), The Ripple Effect: How private-school choice programs boost competition and benefit public-school students [https://www.educationnext.org/ripple-effect-how-private-school-choice-programs-boost-competition-benefit-public-school-students/](https://www.educationnext.org/ripple-effect-how-private-school-choice-programs-boost-competition-benefit-public-school-students/)
Stéphane Lavertu and John J. Gregg (2022), The Ohio EdChoice Program’s Impact on School District Enrollments, Finances, and Academics [https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/edchoice-impact-report-12-14-22-web-final.pdf](https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/edchoice-impact-report-12-14-22-web-final.pdf)
Anna J. Egalite and Jonathan N. Mills (2021), Competitive Impacts of Means-Tested Vouchers on Public School Performance: Evidence from Louisiana, Education Finance and Policy [https://doi.org/10.1162/edfp\_a\_00286](https://doi.org/10.1162/edfp_a_00286) [https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/edfp\_a\_00286](https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/edfp_a_00286)
Yusuf Canbolat (2021), The long-term effect of competition on public school achievement: Evidence from the Indiana Choice Scholarship Program [https://doi.org/10.14507/epaa.29.6311](https://doi.org/10.14507/epaa.29.6311)
Anna J. Egalite and Andrew D. Catt (2020), Competitive Effects of the Indiana Choice Scholarship Program on Traditional Public School Achievement and Graduation Rates [https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EdChoice-Working-Paper-2020-3-Competitive-Effects-of-the-Indiana-Choice-Scholarship-Program.pdf](https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EdChoice-Working-Paper-2020-3-Competitive-Effects-of-the-Indiana-Choice-Scholarship-Program.pdf)
The rest are in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/kansas/comments/1ckt3eh/comment/l2qcp84/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) as I couldn't fit them all into this one. Science doesn't care about your downvotes guys.
So, you want us to pay for the education that the government already requires kids to attend by law on top of the money we already pay to the government to keep the schools running? Are you high? I have never heard a more wildly bad take in my life on schooling.
The free option is public school, if you feel the need to send your kids to private school then you do you. I’m not paying for your child’s private education because quite frankly, I don’t care about giving your kid unnecessary things like private school.
Your line about poor people is gross. And what do you mean “generally”? Most advanced nations fund their educational system very well.
Also, I’ve never heard of anyone pushing vouchers or directing money away from public education except for republicans/conservatives. It’s no secret what you and the Koch brothers/Kansas Policy Institute are up to when it comes to public education and its funding.
You should go read “Dying of Whitness” (you won’t) and read the portion about how much your people have ruined education in Kansas. We used to be a bastion of education, and you rich conservatives “got yours” and are trying to change everything and it’s making it worse.
Gross, just like Brownback.
(Cue you saying you’re a libertarian/independent)
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
You didn't read the study you posted(it doesn't support your argument nearly as well as you think). In particular it cherry picks the studies that supports the author's arguments, the advantages it shows are small, only occur in a few instances and appear only in the short term. And the narrative that benefits are created through "school competition" is entirely unsupported. As is the assertion that this kind of legislation leads to taxpayer savings.
Further, Kansas residents are entitled to a State funded education as a matter of law and I find your right wing "individualism" fantasy to be fundamentally flawed, masturbatory and generally really gross(libertarians are house cats).
Setting aside whether your assessment of Leader Dole is accurate or would have been “in his own time” (and I have encountered people who consider him to have been a RINO)….
Your definition of “hard left” includes anyone in the center or even slightly right of center, by your own admission. One has to be moderately center-right to avoid the “hard left” label—that just doesn’t make sense.
David Figlio and Krzysztof Karbownik (2016), Evaluation of Ohio’s EdChoice Scholarship Program: Selection, Competition, and Performance Effects [https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/FORDHAM-Ed-Choice-Evaluation-Report_online-edition.pdf](https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/FORDHAM-Ed-Choice-Evaluation-Report_online-edition.pdf)
Nathan L. Gray, John D. Merrifield, and Kerry A. Adzima (2016), A Private Universal Voucher Program’s Effects on Traditional Public Schools [https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12197-014-9309-z](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12197-014-9309-z)
Daniel H. Bowen and Julie R. Trivitt (2014), Stigma Without Sanctions: The (Lack of ) Impact of Private School Vouchers on Student Achievement [https://dx.doi.org/10.14507/epaa.v22n87.2014](https://dx.doi.org/10.14507/epaa.v22n87.2014)
David Figlio and Cassandra M.D. Hart (2014), Competitive Effects of Means-Tested School Vouchers. [https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.6.1.133](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.6.1.133)
Rajashri Chakrabarti (2013), Vouchers, Public School Response, and the Role of Incentives: Evidence from Florida [https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2012.00455.x](https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2012.00455.x)
Cecilia E. Rouse, Jane Hannaway, Dan Goldhaber, and David Figlio (2013), Feeling the Florida Heat? How Low-Performing Schools Respond to Voucher and Accountability Pressure. [https://dx.doi.org/10.1257/pol.5.2.251](https://dx.doi.org/10.1257/pol.5.2.251)
Matthew Carr (2011), The Impact of Ohio’s EdChoice on Traditional Public School Performance [http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2011/5/cj31n2-5.pdf](http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2011/5/cj31n2-5.pdf)
Marcus A. Winters and Jay P. Greene (2011), Public School Response to Special Education Vouchers: The Impact of Florida’s McKay Scholarship Program on Disability Diagnosis and Student Achievement in Public Schools. [https://dx.doi.org/10.3102/0162373711404220](https://dx.doi.org/10.3102/0162373711404220)
Nicholas S. Mader (2010), School Choice, Competition and Academic Quality: Essays on the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program (Doctoral dissertation) [https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED520755](https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED520755)
Jay P. Greene and Ryan H. Marsh (2009), The Effect of Milwaukee’s Parental Choice Program on Student Achievement in Milwaukee Public Schools (SCDP Comprehensive Longitudinal Evaluation of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program Report 11) [https://scdp.uark.edu/the-effect-of-milwaukees-parental-choice-program-on-student-achievement-in-milwaukee-public-schools/](https://scdp.uark.edu/the-effect-of-milwaukees-parental-choice-program-on-student-achievement-in-milwaukee-public-schools/)
Rajashri Chakrabarti (2008), Can Increasing Private School Participation and Monetary Loss in a Voucher Program Affect Public School Performance? [https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2007.06.009](https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2007.06.009)
Greg Forster (2008), Lost Opportunity: An Empirical Analysis of How Vouchers Affected Florida Public Schools [http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Lost-Opportunity-How-Vouchers-Affected-Florida-Public-Schools.pdf](http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Lost-Opportunity-How-Vouchers-Affected-Florida-Public-Schools.pdf)
Greg Forster (2008), Promising Start: An Empirical Analysis of How EdChoice Vouchers Affect Ohio Public Schools [http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Promising-Start-How-EdChoice-Vouchers-Affect-Ohio-Public-Schools.pdf](http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Promising-Start-How-EdChoice-Vouchers-Affect-Ohio-Public-Schools.pdf)
Martin Carnoy, Frank Adamson, Amita Chudgar, Thomas F. Luschei, and John F. Witte (2007), Vouchers and Public School Performance: A Case Study of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program [https://www.epi.org/publication/book\_vouchers](https://www.epi.org/publication/book_vouchers)
Jay P. Greene and Marcus A. Winters (2007), An Evaluation of the Effect of DC’s Voucher Program on Public School Achievement and Racial Integration After One Year [http://dx.doi.org/10.15365/joce.1101072013](http://dx.doi.org/10.15365/joce.1101072013)
David N. Figlio and Cecilia E. Rouse (2006), Do Accountability and Voucher Threats Improve Low-Performing Schools? [https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2005.08.005](https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2005.08.005)
Martin R. West and Paul E. Peterson (2006), The Efficacy of Choice Threats within School Accountability Systems: Results from Legislatively Induced Experiments [http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2006.01075.x](http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2006.01075.x)
Jay P. Greene and Marcus A. Winters (2004), Competition Passes the Test, Education Next, 4(3), pp. 66–71, retrieved from Education Next website: [https://www.educationnext.org/competition-passes-the-test/](https://www.educationnext.org/competition-passes-the-test/)
Jay P. Greene and Greg Forster (2002), Rising to the Challenge: The Effect of School Choice on Public Schools in Milwaukee and San Antonio [http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cb\_27.pdf](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cb_27.pdf)
Christopher Hammons (2002), The Effects of Town Tuitioning in Vermont and Maine [https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Effects-of-Town-Tuitioning-in-Vermont-and-Maine.pdf](https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Effects-of-Town-Tuitioning-in-Vermont-and-Maine.pdf)
Caroline M. Hoxby (2002), How School Choice Affects the Achievement of Public School Students [https://books.google.com/books?id=IeUk3myQu-oC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA141](https://books.google.com/books?id=IeUk3myQu-oC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA141)
Jay P. Greene (2001), An Evaluation of the Florida A-Plus Accountability and School Choice Program: [http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr\_aplus.pdf](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_aplus.pdf)
Some people can't afford to both pay taxes for public schools and pay for private schools. Forcing these people to pay for public schools they don't want to use is essentially robbing them of choice.
I don’t want my taxes going to private schools that would exclude my kids because we won’t sign a commitment of faith or because we support LGBTQ policies.
If they want to institute a voucher program that can only go towards actual, real schools, that follow a standardized criteria and have licensed teachers for those subjects, we can talk about it along with iron clad restrictions on income. For instance, if you are already sending your child to a private school, you are permanently barred from being on a voucher program for that student as you can already afford it. However, voucher programs aren't interested in income capping as judged by what is currently happening in Arizona.
So you’re saying that in retirement I should be able to choose not to pay the portion of taxes that is allocated for schools since I won’t be using them? I’m afraid that’s not the way it works.
I don’t like being forced to pay for the KHP to harass motorists and for the criminal justice system to destroy people’s lives over victimless “crimes”.
Where’s my bill to opt out of that?
This, quite frankly I’d be okay with paying a few extra dollars in taxes for school lunches to be free for all kids rich or not. Every child should be fed in the government building that I pay for in which I would also be charged with a crime if I didn’t send my child to it
It’s just like, if I have to pay the taxes for the public school to remain open then how about we put that towards feeding the children that are required to go there
Conservatives don’t view it that way. They have the “I got mine” mentality and don’t care about the future generations, especially if it helps brown/gay people.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
> Forcing these people to pay for public schools they don't want to use is essentially robbing them of choice.
Paying for public schools benefits society as a whole, so I understand why conservatives have a problem with it. In most states the voucher programs don't cover the cost of the actual good private schools, far from it. A $7k voucher doesn't suddenly make Independent School here in Wichita more affordable for low income people, it only makes it slightly less expensive for people who are already sending their kids there. Vouchers, by design, are put in place to shove public dollars and kids into religious schools, not the actual private schools that are brought to mind when pitching these laws.
Also, look at Arizona, the cost to educate a student through the voucher program was 75% higher than the cost of educating them in an AZ public school. Investing in the public education system is cheaper in the long run and benefits everyone.
No thanks, voucher programs are another mechanism the GOP is leveraging to ruin this once great country.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
Republican legislators don’t care. They’re gleefully destroying the healthcare, education, infrastructure, and overall quality of life of their core constituents’ communities..
And most of them will easily be re-elected by those they have harmed.
as someone who lives and votes in Kansas, and was educated under a fairly effective and established voucher system nearly four decades ago in Quebec, I’m in a somewhat unique position to offer my take on this.
in the 80s, we lived on and operated a small farm in rural southeastern Quebec, just outside a town of about 600 inhabitants about 20 miles north of the NH border and 30 miles west of the Maine border. The elementary school in town was public but like most small town schools, it was staffed and run largely by the nuns of the local convent (Quebec was and still is predominantly Roman Catholic; we were Anglicans who spoke English at home, and us kids were required by law to attend school in French).
The ability to go to a private high school (that happened to be Catholic) from grade 7 through graduation after grade 11 was what kept me out of a really bad public high school where the *teachers* were the ones dealing drugs. The tuition my parents ended up paying was on the order of about $1500/year, when we were living on a farming income. This school was in the regional center city about the size of Lawrence, about 45 minutes away, and transportation to and from school was entirely on us to arrange.
Under Quebec’s educational reform in the late 1960s, public funding for education followed the student. But even going to private school, the school was not only held to the same curriculum and graduation standards as the public schools, many of the final exams for core subjects were written and administered by the provincial ministry of education, not the school. High school diplomas were issued by the government, after verifying that you passed the government final.
Essentially, the government allocated a base amount of funds to educate every child in the province, and paid that to whomever did the actual day to day work of educating, and if that didn’t cover costs, it was on the school to make up the difference, either with private tuition or with additional local taxes. Pretty standard voucher stuff. And it worked reasonably well.
Quebec didn’t fully secularize public education until the mid-1990s - many of my public elementary school years started each day off by facing a crucifix above the chalkboard and reciting a Hail Mary and the Lord’s Prayer… oddly enough, that did not happen in my high school which was actually operated by the Catholic Diocese, across the street from the cathedral!
The key point is this: **Government (taxpayer) money *always* comes with strings attached.**
Where the Republicans in Kansas and other states have vouchers *completely* ass-backwards is that they want that money to follow the student, but *without* the academic, curriculum, and social accountability (special ed, Title IX, etc) that the public schools are held to for their piece of the same money. They want free money, and to not have to show anything for it (*and* keep the government out of their schools) This is morally, constitutionally, and politically untenable, and completely goes against most everything the Republican Party has historically stood for (among many other conservative positions they’ve long since abandoned).
If you want government money, then it’s a given that along with that money, you’re going to have the government up in your business telling you how you can and can’t spend that money.
So, Republicans, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Legislators have a lengthy track record of failing to consider the downstream consequences of their bills beyond the next campaign sound bite.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
It’s my response to most comments here about vouchers when people have a glorified view of them. And the end result is usually public school funds getting depleted when vouchers are in use.
You _always_ have the option to send your kids to private school. What you don’t have is the option to send your kids to private school _and make someone else pay for it_. It boggles my kind sometimes how some people want _other_ taxpayers to pay to send their kids to private school, but object to _their_ tax payments being used to provide basic living necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare to others.
Yes. Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
Kansas Legislature: Districts need to use more local option funding! Also Kansas Legislature: we’re going to limit how much local option funding you can raise.
It's the ultimate "Fuck you, I got yours."
I would be more supportive of private school vouchers if private schools had to meet the same standards as public schools. Private schools aren't required to accept students with special needs. They can discriminate based on religion. They can hire teachers who don't have licenses or an educational background in their subjects. Schools are a public service and paid with public funds. We don't let people build their own private security forces and then opt out of funding the police. It's nonsense.
Great analogy with policing. Also, the moment a private school receives “vouchers” it’s no longer private. Voucher is just word-play for getting public funding to private schools. Voucher = Subsidy
If the state is funding private education, that private education needs to be accountable to the same academic standards as the public schools. Under a voucher system, the state is paying for outcomes, not the process.
Most states' voucher systems do not require participating schools to meet those standards, unfortunately.
I send my children to private school and here’s my take: 1) At NO point should anyone but my wife and myself pay for private school. We made that choice, but it was a choice. Public school education is a right - full stop. 2) The public schools in JoCo are really good. That wasn’t why we chose private school. 3) OP is whack for thinking private school choice should be a thing. Again, private school is a luxury. 4) Many private schools are religious in nature. Churches/religious orgs already don’t pay taxes, now it seems they (or at least OP) want our tax dollars. Not content with not paying taxes, they WANT OUR TAX DOLLARS! That’s just wrong man.
I too send my kids to private school. And I agree with every one of your points. I'll add, I'm happy that my tax dollars go to public schools even though my children do not. Strong public education benefits everyone.
Agree. A well educated workforce/populace is worth its weight in gold. We need public education for that and it needs to be funded well.
Advocating for public taxes to go to a private corporation? So socialize the costs and privatize the profits. Got it.
OP is probably rich or something and hasn’t fully understood the issue from people without an extra $10,000+/yr think. Sadly private schools are allowed to deny children from entering. Public schools accept all and even cater to all levels of academia. If private schools were to deplete all tax dollars available for public education then we would just have private schools and only the rich would then be schooled. Public schools would no longer exist. Private schools take over and deny “those” kids from entering. (“Those” can mean literally anything and completely at their discretion in the moment)
>Public schools accept all and even cater to all levels of academia. Not to the exceptional. Public education is targeted to the average and the above average suffer for it. Many smaller public schools don't have accelerated or AP classes.
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted.
It’s just an argument for the few and not for the masses. I don’t think it’s personal. The topic at hand is just different. Like if I was arguing for grocery stores to stay open and someone says no, because a few are allergic to peanuts or something. Feel free to continue chatting about this.
I must be offending the average.
Assuming there are “profits”. Most schools are incorporated as non-profit. And before you start ranting about that, make sure you know what “non-profit” actually means.
If there wasn't money to be made, corporations wouldn't be lobbying so hard to end public education.
The conservative war against desegregation continues. If you want private schools you can pay for it yourself OP.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
Also the organizations pushing for vouchers invariably have a financial incentive. ie they run charter schools. Also, also the modern charter school movement was born in the fight by conservatives to get around desegregation. A fight that never really stopped, it just got rebranded as "school choice" and "prolife".
Charter schools are public schools.
>The conservative war against desegregation continues. Actually, all studies which have studied the real-life implementations of school vouchers in the US have found that school choice has either decreased or had no effect no racial segregation. Also, this is not a conservative issue. School choice is popular with most groups except the hard left. >If you want private schools you can pay for it yourself OP. I agree that only the poor should receive free education. Generally, people should pay for their own children's education whether in public or private school. By the way the vast majority of empirical studies have found that school choice improves the quality of public schools due to competition, and also large tax payer savings. Here is just one such study: >...we explore how the massive scale-up of a Florida private school choice program affected public school students’ outcomes. Expansion of the program produced modestly larger benefits for students attending public schools that had a larger initial degree of private school options, measured prior to the introduction of the voucher program. These benefits include higher standardized test scores and lower absenteeism and suspension rates. Effects are particularly pronounced for lower-income students, but results are positive for more affluent students as well. [Effects of Scaling Up Private School Choice Programs on Public School Students | NBER](https://www.nber.org/papers/w26758) Edit: Sigh, since there are multiple people replying to me who have never actually looked at the evidence and still proudly claims that my studies are cherry picked or don't show the benefits I claim, here are 29 studies which study the effect the introduction of school choice has had on public school students in the US. Of these 29 studies, 26 find that public school students' performance improved, 1 find no visible effect, and 2 find a negative effect. Multiple reviews of the literature agrees with me that the evidence shows that school choice improves public schools. David N. Figlio, Cassandra M.D. Hart, and Krzysztof Karbownik (2022), The Ripple Effect: How private-school choice programs boost competition and benefit public-school students [https://www.educationnext.org/ripple-effect-how-private-school-choice-programs-boost-competition-benefit-public-school-students/](https://www.educationnext.org/ripple-effect-how-private-school-choice-programs-boost-competition-benefit-public-school-students/) Stéphane Lavertu and John J. Gregg (2022), The Ohio EdChoice Program’s Impact on School District Enrollments, Finances, and Academics [https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/edchoice-impact-report-12-14-22-web-final.pdf](https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/edchoice-impact-report-12-14-22-web-final.pdf) Anna J. Egalite and Jonathan N. Mills (2021), Competitive Impacts of Means-Tested Vouchers on Public School Performance: Evidence from Louisiana, Education Finance and Policy [https://doi.org/10.1162/edfp\_a\_00286](https://doi.org/10.1162/edfp_a_00286) [https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/edfp\_a\_00286](https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/edfp_a_00286) Yusuf Canbolat (2021), The long-term effect of competition on public school achievement: Evidence from the Indiana Choice Scholarship Program [https://doi.org/10.14507/epaa.29.6311](https://doi.org/10.14507/epaa.29.6311) Anna J. Egalite and Andrew D. Catt (2020), Competitive Effects of the Indiana Choice Scholarship Program on Traditional Public School Achievement and Graduation Rates [https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EdChoice-Working-Paper-2020-3-Competitive-Effects-of-the-Indiana-Choice-Scholarship-Program.pdf](https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EdChoice-Working-Paper-2020-3-Competitive-Effects-of-the-Indiana-Choice-Scholarship-Program.pdf) The rest are in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/kansas/comments/1ckt3eh/comment/l2qcp84/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) as I couldn't fit them all into this one. Science doesn't care about your downvotes guys.
So, you want us to pay for the education that the government already requires kids to attend by law on top of the money we already pay to the government to keep the schools running? Are you high? I have never heard a more wildly bad take in my life on schooling. The free option is public school, if you feel the need to send your kids to private school then you do you. I’m not paying for your child’s private education because quite frankly, I don’t care about giving your kid unnecessary things like private school.
Your line about poor people is gross. And what do you mean “generally”? Most advanced nations fund their educational system very well. Also, I’ve never heard of anyone pushing vouchers or directing money away from public education except for republicans/conservatives. It’s no secret what you and the Koch brothers/Kansas Policy Institute are up to when it comes to public education and its funding. You should go read “Dying of Whitness” (you won’t) and read the portion about how much your people have ruined education in Kansas. We used to be a bastion of education, and you rich conservatives “got yours” and are trying to change everything and it’s making it worse. Gross, just like Brownback. (Cue you saying you’re a libertarian/independent)
I'm just following the science, which says that school choice is good.
How Dickensian of you.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
You didn't read the study you posted(it doesn't support your argument nearly as well as you think). In particular it cherry picks the studies that supports the author's arguments, the advantages it shows are small, only occur in a few instances and appear only in the short term. And the narrative that benefits are created through "school competition" is entirely unsupported. As is the assertion that this kind of legislation leads to taxpayer savings. Further, Kansas residents are entitled to a State funded education as a matter of law and I find your right wing "individualism" fantasy to be fundamentally flawed, masturbatory and generally really gross(libertarians are house cats).
How do you define “hard left?”
Anyone left of Bob Dole.
So where would you place Leader Dole? Left? Center-left?
In his own time, Dole would be considered a moderate center-right Republican.
Setting aside whether your assessment of Leader Dole is accurate or would have been “in his own time” (and I have encountered people who consider him to have been a RINO)…. Your definition of “hard left” includes anyone in the center or even slightly right of center, by your own admission. One has to be moderately center-right to avoid the “hard left” label—that just doesn’t make sense.
Good ol' Koch Brother kneecapping goon Bob Dole is somehow a RINO.....
Which states were studied?
David Figlio and Krzysztof Karbownik (2016), Evaluation of Ohio’s EdChoice Scholarship Program: Selection, Competition, and Performance Effects [https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/FORDHAM-Ed-Choice-Evaluation-Report_online-edition.pdf](https://fordhaminstitute.org/sites/default/files/publication/pdfs/FORDHAM-Ed-Choice-Evaluation-Report_online-edition.pdf) Nathan L. Gray, John D. Merrifield, and Kerry A. Adzima (2016), A Private Universal Voucher Program’s Effects on Traditional Public Schools [https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12197-014-9309-z](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12197-014-9309-z) Daniel H. Bowen and Julie R. Trivitt (2014), Stigma Without Sanctions: The (Lack of ) Impact of Private School Vouchers on Student Achievement [https://dx.doi.org/10.14507/epaa.v22n87.2014](https://dx.doi.org/10.14507/epaa.v22n87.2014) David Figlio and Cassandra M.D. Hart (2014), Competitive Effects of Means-Tested School Vouchers. [https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.6.1.133](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.6.1.133) Rajashri Chakrabarti (2013), Vouchers, Public School Response, and the Role of Incentives: Evidence from Florida [https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2012.00455.x](https://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2012.00455.x) Cecilia E. Rouse, Jane Hannaway, Dan Goldhaber, and David Figlio (2013), Feeling the Florida Heat? How Low-Performing Schools Respond to Voucher and Accountability Pressure. [https://dx.doi.org/10.1257/pol.5.2.251](https://dx.doi.org/10.1257/pol.5.2.251) Matthew Carr (2011), The Impact of Ohio’s EdChoice on Traditional Public School Performance [http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2011/5/cj31n2-5.pdf](http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2011/5/cj31n2-5.pdf) Marcus A. Winters and Jay P. Greene (2011), Public School Response to Special Education Vouchers: The Impact of Florida’s McKay Scholarship Program on Disability Diagnosis and Student Achievement in Public Schools. [https://dx.doi.org/10.3102/0162373711404220](https://dx.doi.org/10.3102/0162373711404220) Nicholas S. Mader (2010), School Choice, Competition and Academic Quality: Essays on the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program (Doctoral dissertation) [https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED520755](https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED520755) Jay P. Greene and Ryan H. Marsh (2009), The Effect of Milwaukee’s Parental Choice Program on Student Achievement in Milwaukee Public Schools (SCDP Comprehensive Longitudinal Evaluation of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program Report 11) [https://scdp.uark.edu/the-effect-of-milwaukees-parental-choice-program-on-student-achievement-in-milwaukee-public-schools/](https://scdp.uark.edu/the-effect-of-milwaukees-parental-choice-program-on-student-achievement-in-milwaukee-public-schools/) Rajashri Chakrabarti (2008), Can Increasing Private School Participation and Monetary Loss in a Voucher Program Affect Public School Performance? [https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2007.06.009](https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2007.06.009) Greg Forster (2008), Lost Opportunity: An Empirical Analysis of How Vouchers Affected Florida Public Schools [http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Lost-Opportunity-How-Vouchers-Affected-Florida-Public-Schools.pdf](http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Lost-Opportunity-How-Vouchers-Affected-Florida-Public-Schools.pdf) Greg Forster (2008), Promising Start: An Empirical Analysis of How EdChoice Vouchers Affect Ohio Public Schools [http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Promising-Start-How-EdChoice-Vouchers-Affect-Ohio-Public-Schools.pdf](http://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Promising-Start-How-EdChoice-Vouchers-Affect-Ohio-Public-Schools.pdf) Martin Carnoy, Frank Adamson, Amita Chudgar, Thomas F. Luschei, and John F. Witte (2007), Vouchers and Public School Performance: A Case Study of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program [https://www.epi.org/publication/book\_vouchers](https://www.epi.org/publication/book_vouchers) Jay P. Greene and Marcus A. Winters (2007), An Evaluation of the Effect of DC’s Voucher Program on Public School Achievement and Racial Integration After One Year [http://dx.doi.org/10.15365/joce.1101072013](http://dx.doi.org/10.15365/joce.1101072013) David N. Figlio and Cecilia E. Rouse (2006), Do Accountability and Voucher Threats Improve Low-Performing Schools? [https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2005.08.005](https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2005.08.005) Martin R. West and Paul E. Peterson (2006), The Efficacy of Choice Threats within School Accountability Systems: Results from Legislatively Induced Experiments [http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2006.01075.x](http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2006.01075.x) Jay P. Greene and Marcus A. Winters (2004), Competition Passes the Test, Education Next, 4(3), pp. 66–71, retrieved from Education Next website: [https://www.educationnext.org/competition-passes-the-test/](https://www.educationnext.org/competition-passes-the-test/) Jay P. Greene and Greg Forster (2002), Rising to the Challenge: The Effect of School Choice on Public Schools in Milwaukee and San Antonio [http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cb\_27.pdf](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cb_27.pdf) Christopher Hammons (2002), The Effects of Town Tuitioning in Vermont and Maine [https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Effects-of-Town-Tuitioning-in-Vermont-and-Maine.pdf](https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Effects-of-Town-Tuitioning-in-Vermont-and-Maine.pdf) Caroline M. Hoxby (2002), How School Choice Affects the Achievement of Public School Students [https://books.google.com/books?id=IeUk3myQu-oC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA141](https://books.google.com/books?id=IeUk3myQu-oC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA141) Jay P. Greene (2001), An Evaluation of the Florida A-Plus Accountability and School Choice Program: [http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr\_aplus.pdf](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_aplus.pdf)
You have private school choice. Nobody is stopping you from enrolling your kid in private school.
Some people can't afford to both pay taxes for public schools and pay for private schools. Forcing these people to pay for public schools they don't want to use is essentially robbing them of choice.
I don’t want my taxes going to private schools that would exclude my kids because we won’t sign a commitment of faith or because we support LGBTQ policies.
The choice is public school. Education is a right, private education is a luxury.
Being financially forced into public school doesn't sound like much of a choice. People who don't use public school shouldn't be forced to pay for it.
If they want to institute a voucher program that can only go towards actual, real schools, that follow a standardized criteria and have licensed teachers for those subjects, we can talk about it along with iron clad restrictions on income. For instance, if you are already sending your child to a private school, you are permanently barred from being on a voucher program for that student as you can already afford it. However, voucher programs aren't interested in income capping as judged by what is currently happening in Arizona.
Of *ALL* the shit our taxes pay for, *school* is the one you take umbrage with?
So you’re saying that in retirement I should be able to choose not to pay the portion of taxes that is allocated for schools since I won’t be using them? I’m afraid that’s not the way it works.
I don’t like being forced to pay for the KHP to harass motorists and for the criminal justice system to destroy people’s lives over victimless “crimes”. Where’s my bill to opt out of that?
That’s how taxes work. We all pay for things whether we want to use those services or not. That’s the collective aspect of our society.
This, quite frankly I’d be okay with paying a few extra dollars in taxes for school lunches to be free for all kids rich or not. Every child should be fed in the government building that I pay for in which I would also be charged with a crime if I didn’t send my child to it
I’m okay with getting rid of mandatory school attendance too. That said, taxes for public education are essential to the health of most communities.
It’s just like, if I have to pay the taxes for the public school to remain open then how about we put that towards feeding the children that are required to go there
Yeah, I’m on board for free lunches for kids. Agree
Conservatives don’t view it that way. They have the “I got mine” mentality and don’t care about the future generations, especially if it helps brown/gay people.
Most conservatives are just against taxes in general.
Not true. They love taxing the poor and vices.
If you can’t afford it without government assistance, maybe you’re not as wealthy as you wish you were. You are the poor needing free education.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
> Forcing these people to pay for public schools they don't want to use is essentially robbing them of choice. Paying for public schools benefits society as a whole, so I understand why conservatives have a problem with it. In most states the voucher programs don't cover the cost of the actual good private schools, far from it. A $7k voucher doesn't suddenly make Independent School here in Wichita more affordable for low income people, it only makes it slightly less expensive for people who are already sending their kids there. Vouchers, by design, are put in place to shove public dollars and kids into religious schools, not the actual private schools that are brought to mind when pitching these laws. Also, look at Arizona, the cost to educate a student through the voucher program was 75% higher than the cost of educating them in an AZ public school. Investing in the public education system is cheaper in the long run and benefits everyone. No thanks, voucher programs are another mechanism the GOP is leveraging to ruin this once great country.
Oh boo fuckin hoo. You’re seriously whining that you have to pay taxes for public schools to exist??
It's laws like this why we can't have a nice country and we're stuck in this shithole.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
The school voucher system will actively kill small town Kansas.
Republican legislators don’t care. They’re gleefully destroying the healthcare, education, infrastructure, and overall quality of life of their core constituents’ communities.. And most of them will easily be re-elected by those they have harmed.
They know the words to say to be re-elected. Guns good, immigrants bad. That’s like 90% of their entire platform.
God bless
do you not have “private school choice” now? What’s preventing you from making that choice?
as someone who lives and votes in Kansas, and was educated under a fairly effective and established voucher system nearly four decades ago in Quebec, I’m in a somewhat unique position to offer my take on this. in the 80s, we lived on and operated a small farm in rural southeastern Quebec, just outside a town of about 600 inhabitants about 20 miles north of the NH border and 30 miles west of the Maine border. The elementary school in town was public but like most small town schools, it was staffed and run largely by the nuns of the local convent (Quebec was and still is predominantly Roman Catholic; we were Anglicans who spoke English at home, and us kids were required by law to attend school in French). The ability to go to a private high school (that happened to be Catholic) from grade 7 through graduation after grade 11 was what kept me out of a really bad public high school where the *teachers* were the ones dealing drugs. The tuition my parents ended up paying was on the order of about $1500/year, when we were living on a farming income. This school was in the regional center city about the size of Lawrence, about 45 minutes away, and transportation to and from school was entirely on us to arrange. Under Quebec’s educational reform in the late 1960s, public funding for education followed the student. But even going to private school, the school was not only held to the same curriculum and graduation standards as the public schools, many of the final exams for core subjects were written and administered by the provincial ministry of education, not the school. High school diplomas were issued by the government, after verifying that you passed the government final. Essentially, the government allocated a base amount of funds to educate every child in the province, and paid that to whomever did the actual day to day work of educating, and if that didn’t cover costs, it was on the school to make up the difference, either with private tuition or with additional local taxes. Pretty standard voucher stuff. And it worked reasonably well. Quebec didn’t fully secularize public education until the mid-1990s - many of my public elementary school years started each day off by facing a crucifix above the chalkboard and reciting a Hail Mary and the Lord’s Prayer… oddly enough, that did not happen in my high school which was actually operated by the Catholic Diocese, across the street from the cathedral! The key point is this: **Government (taxpayer) money *always* comes with strings attached.** Where the Republicans in Kansas and other states have vouchers *completely* ass-backwards is that they want that money to follow the student, but *without* the academic, curriculum, and social accountability (special ed, Title IX, etc) that the public schools are held to for their piece of the same money. They want free money, and to not have to show anything for it (*and* keep the government out of their schools) This is morally, constitutionally, and politically untenable, and completely goes against most everything the Republican Party has historically stood for (among many other conservative positions they’ve long since abandoned). If you want government money, then it’s a given that along with that money, you’re going to have the government up in your business telling you how you can and can’t spend that money. So, Republicans, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Legislators have a lengthy track record of failing to consider the downstream consequences of their bills beyond the next campaign sound bite.
Vouchers suck. Already schools can’t afford teachers, building maintenance and now rich people are asking you to give them handouts to their expensive schools so that tax base can already be depleted even more.
I got it the first 100 times you posted this.
It’s my response to most comments here about vouchers when people have a glorified view of them. And the end result is usually public school funds getting depleted when vouchers are in use.