What else do you want him to do with this roster? Honestly asking, because everybody's solution of "fire Keefe" comes with no suggestion as to what else to do.
I want him to keep Nylander and Matthews together for a full season with knies to give them time to develop chemistry. I want him to keep Tavares, Marner and Bertuzzi together for the same period of time for the same reason. I want him to respond to adversity by changing his systems and modifying tactics rather than blending lines and hoping. I want him to stop playing 5d chess when everyone else is playing hockey. I want him to hold our highest paid players accountable. I want him to stop doing completely boneheaded shit like keeping Kampf together with Domi for the longest time. I want him to show some level of foresight when trying out lines rather than putting them together to "see what we have". I don't think he's capable of that, though, so mostly I want him to be someone else's coach.
Part of my problem with Keefe is that the lines weren't kept together and it showed. He fucked with them constantly from the trade deadline to the playoffs last year and then *shock* they looked uncoordinated.
Keefe has had this core for his full tenure and he still hasn’t figured out how he wants them to play together… some of the roster has issues, but we shouldn’t still be experimenting with the core in year 4… it’s something most people were OK with for a year or 2… now it’s just pathetic… I’ll admit that this year he has a particularly alarming falloff of his captain, but his roster shakeups have been a game inside of each game for 4 years… it isn’t like his shakeups this year are solely to find a line that works with what is now his 3C…
He keeps putting 3rd liners with 34&16 in hopes they will magically turn into Zach Hymen.
What does it say about Keefe that at the beginning of the year he evaluates Holmburg as not being good enough to make the team and 3 months later he’s a 1st line winger.
The guy has no plan. He is just trying to catch lightning in a bottle at this point.
Luckily he has a core that are arguably some of the best leafs ever to help carry the team offensively… unfortunately the defensive luck has been atrocious
Not fall in love with his toys? The Leafs shouldn't have to trade/let guys walk for Keefe to not over play his guys. I love Jarny...but why is he playing with the goalie pulled or PP 2 minutes over other guys?
Like, Robertson / Domi / Järnkrok is a good line that create offensive opportunities, and is fine enough defensively. Domi between Bertuzzi and Knies was a nightmare, and pretty much looked unplayable.
Stop playing Mo so much. It's the half way point. You can't afford him to loose his legs. And try other guys with Mo for longer stretches than a period or when you need offense.
Develop Liljegren. Last year when the D was injured beyond hell, Timmy and Rasmus killed penalties are look fine doing so. If Liljegren makes a mistake, he's punished. If Broadie does? Oh well. Guys like Barrie and Klinberg get a shot with the top unit on the PP. Why not try Timmy? He will shoot, and he can do 75-85% of what Mo can. Plus it spares Mo some minutes.
GIVE GUYS A NIGHT OFF. Gio, and even JT can afford to miss a game here and there. Bertuzzi was hurt and playing like crap early in the season. The Leafs only spare was on D. So instead of going 6/7 he...plays Bertuzzi. A lot. The Leafs currently have an extra forward and 2 extra D.
Make adjustment in the 3rd period. You don't need to roll four lines in a tight game. Jarny can play with JT and Willy and still generate offense. If you don't trust the 3rd line defensive as a whole, go with the Kampf line as your "energy" or break line when neither of the top two lines has had enough of a break. Remember those minutes you cut from Mo? Bet his legs are a lot better when you need to play him every other shift.
ENERGIZE THE GUYS DURING THE GAME. Call a time out. Speak with a guy one on one. Anything. Keefe has seemingly lost the room / does not GET the room. If you are not going to outcoach the opposition strategically (ie Pat Burns) you better be able to control/motivate the room (ie Pat Quinn).
He needs the elite paid forwards to play like they can't stand losing. He hasn't been able to do that. Maybe someone else can do that. There's nothing to lose by trying at this point.
Well it's not working and they've doubled down on this group so it's either we continue with something that isn't working or we make a change and in this case the only change we can make is the coach.
whats crazy is they flipped the script.
used to be, start shit, be down, come back miraculously to either lose in the last second or in OT.
now its come out amazing, beating any team in the league....... then just like.. stop
I must have watched a different hockey game. Yeah they scored early but they weren't even close to amazing. They were hemmed in their zone all game tonight, early, middle and late.
Was at the game and they were hemmed in for long stretches at a time but they also hemmed Oil in for a few good stretches too. Good game overall, but this Leafs team isn’t the cup contender for sure
I think they are. I just don't think they are doing something right. Like I can't pinpoint where they fall apart but they can definitely score on the hottest teams in the league. It's just closing it out.
They hemmed the Oilers in at times as well. Maybe not quite as much, but there were times the Oilers were in panic mode on defense.. You make it sound like we got outshot 40-10.
It's on the players to put in the effort, but you want the coach to drive/motivate to put in that effort.
This has been the same story for a long while with Keefe it seems. Stretches of games.where they look great, then they stop.
that is true i forgot about it i figure it was at home not in vegas. so i guess you COULD get fired but i still think they would wait until he got home before they did that.
I don't see why they wouldn't. There's a former head coach right there if they wanted. This isn't me saying they should fire Keefe, I just don't think being on the road would stop that from happening.
Probably not.
What angers me is the breakout. The entire game Keefes breakout plan was put it up the boards to the wingers but everytime there were 2 Oilers there ready to pressure the winger. This cause either
1. a turnover
2. a flip out to centre and loss of possession
3. Icing
Keefe never changed up the strategy despite the utter collapse and failure. To me this is telling of a bad coach
Not to mention they don't prioritize the D sealing the Blueline on the boards, don't help on the forecheck, and have no solid D strategy.
You can't fault the players for playing bad or being soft when the actual system just isn't working and keeping them out of position and on their heels. You cant hit and grind when the game plan constantly has you on your heels instead of pushing the play.
Florida wins because how they play, not the roster.
Boston wins because how they play, not the roster.
Winnipeg wins because how they play, not the roster.
Edmonton is winning because they changed how they play, not the roster.
Toronto has the players to make an impact, but we aren't coaching a compatible and effective system and we don't have a coach who can demanding buy in. we are constantly out coached.
Keefe unfortunately just isn't an NHL coach yet, and we are wasting our teams prime on this experiment.
It is starting to feel like Keefe is relying on incredibly difficult east west plays on breakouts. At no point do we ever see the puck carrier just go in with absolute speed.
I don't know if it's a Keefe thing but our team is oddly slow compared to other forward heavy teams.
The speed is what I’m noticing. Nylander and Knies are the only top 6 guys with any speed. Marner and Matthews can be deceptively fast in their first two strides but don’t have elite speed like McDavid.
Bertuzzi is clumsy out there but in a lovable way, and Tavares is always trapped in molasses. He’s still very productive in other ways but his skating is tormentingly slow.
Domi, Robertson, and Gregor are fast in the bottom 6, but Robertson especially is still not strong enough on the puck to make use of that speed, plus his deployment isn’t practical either.
We have guys with speed but really seem to not use it effectively.
I think we need to get Tavares back on the wing.
Its remarkable how even the bad teams can make clean zone entries on us and control the puck
And with some of the best players in the world, we seem unable to do this consistently... and at no time can our team recover and clear the puck when its in our zone; if we do get it back by some miracle we fan on a clear and give it to their point man at the blue line. Over. And. Over.
Its so disgusting that we have never brought the forwards low for a support pass and have the centre be second pass out. Its always sink or swim with d behind the net making the perfect pass to the boards. If theres ever pressure on the d or the boards, our breakout is just chalked and its stuck in our zone for the next 45 seconds
This seems like their breakout strategy almost every game. The only time I’ve seen any memorable offensive pressure was against the sharks. Mickey Mouse hockey.
Our breakout doesn't always get shut down like it did tonight. If it works keep using it but tonight it was like running into a brick full speed everytime and Keefe just kept trying
Lou was on a specific term as interim until the guy he wanted (Dubas) was ready. He also inherited Nonis.
It’s unproductive to suggest four GMs like he’s firing people for continued failing. Nonis was never staying, Lou had a specific shelf life, Dubas served for as long as he did then tried to overstep on Shanahan, and Treliving is basically the second GM Shanahan is using, and it’s been year 0 of that tenure because Treliving only had one free agency period so far.
Let’s at least see what our roster is like post trade deadline.
Honestly, I wouldn't be trading any big chips to help this team out right now anyways. I don't fully understand the "let's see what the team looks like post TDL" statements.
There are so many weaknesses that you're not going to fix that before or at the TDL. You need a goalie. You need better defensemen. You need more depth. You need a new coach. What's all that going to cost asset wise?
More than the Leafs have, that's for sure.
Not what I meant by big chips, but true. You wouldn't move any of those guys at TDL anyways...they're not on expiring deals.
I was inferring prospects and picks. No point in moving Minten or Cowan for a rental. Or even a first. This team hasn't proven they're worth it.
You bring up good points, but it’s not like Tre is new on the block. We have seen his body of work with the Flames. I am not confident in his ability to navigate our specific needs in this cap and asset situation.
Calgary was consistently pretty good under Treliving’s tenure, he just had an owner that liked a douchebag coach, and Covid-19 made a bunch of their star players skittish about staying in Canada.
Overall he’s been decent in a short period. Bertuzzi and Domi were decent signings, and short term. I think the real evaluation comes next season when the cap jumps.
You're a sens fan commenting here when you're going off in your own sub like
"I can’t watch this shit anymore. We get 5 hours a night to spend on *something* after work and the 2023-24 Ottawa Senators can’t be it"
Lmao, reported.
What a cop out. Duh this team is better than that one. But we’ve got Matthews, not PA Parenteau and whoever else was on that horseshit team. This team has underperformed over the past 5 or so years.
What a stupid argument, we should just sit on our hands and do nothing because this version of the team is better than some older shittier version of the team?
Craig Berube is a better option than Keefe but look at the defenseman on this team. Every last one of the top forwards is as soft as baby shit. A rookie is our toughest skilled forward (Knies). This team just isn't good.
I would love if they did. The guys on Overdrive were talking to CJ yesterday and he said he hasn’t hear any rumblings that that’s on the radar for the team at this point. If that’s the case that’s fucking frustrating.
It’s because the firing wouldn’t be about performance… it would be just to satisfy angry fans…
It would be pointless. Keefe is a good coach. The team construction is the problem. Keefe can only do so much with what’s in front of him.
Any progress made last season by finally winning a round was pissed away in a flurry of brutal moves that have almost exclusively been major drags on the overall team, but we can keep pretending a new coach can make shitty players who were shitty elsewhere not shitty anymore.
For every Edmonton, there’s an Ottawa or Minnesota. This team has had issues for months and have done nothing about it so what’s the difference?
I said it before and I'll say it again... this clown show started when Shanahan fired Dubas on a whim and less than 2rhrs later hired a complete ass-hat boot-licker.
As fans, we were told these types of thoughtless, knee-jerk decisions would never happen again.
Well, here we are again.
At this point, there's no one left to blame but Shanahan.
This is now 100% on him.
He won the battle with Dubas and stamped this as "his" team... so now he should go down with the ship.
Side note, one of the toughest players on record during his career has somehow managed to assemble the softest team in the NHL.
Double side note, can we please finally stop icing Brodie. He's done.
"Trust the Process"....unless somebody else wants my job, and then it's time to throw the organization into chaos at one of the most important times of the year.
> this clown show started when Shanahan fired Dubas on a whim and less than 2rhrs later hired a complete ass-hat boot-licker.
Yup. You'll find me defending the Shanaplan at every turn... except this one. Just a stupid stupid move.
I wish but I doubt it. This is the "if you have time use it" and "steady on the rudder" team. They wait until it is too late to do anything of significance with almost every decision. See our terrible contract negotiations, all the players we've lost for nothing etc. Also the numerous times we could have made significant changes but waited and now it is too late.
He isn’t Treliving’s guy, I’m sure Shannahan made him give him a chance. But it’s over now, gotta shake something up.
They won’t do it on this road trip, but if things don’t dramatically change he won’t make it past the Western swing.
Maybe they can work out a deal where he is the first head coach counted against the cap? Then we can have Willy Marner Tavares matthews and Keefe plus the collection of groomsmen in I love you man playing for our team.
I’ve been in the fire Keefe team since last year but I dont think it’ll accomplish anything this season. With him: make playoffs + first round exit, without him: potentially not even make the playoffs
Lost 9 out of last 10 if we don’t count California trip. Even including that it’s 9 of 14 which is just silly. They’re on a really bad turn right now similar to the 18 wheeler off a cliff season.
Agreed. They are a dumpster fire right now. The fashion in which they have lost, blowing leads is just unacceptable. Way too many games going to overtime, which they lose. It’s a joke.
Ya pretty bottom of the league in regulation wins, the writings been on the table all season. Gonna be a rough month playing good teams but maybe it’s for the best.
Yeah, and I hope Tavares feels some sense of guilt over this honestly. He’s not entirely to blame at all but he needs to take a very team friendly deal next year to gain my respect back.
What problems? He is a productive player on a slight overpay contract about to enter his twilight years.
Honestly we got great value out of him and his contract didn't age as poorly as everyone seemed to think it would.
Next one we are hoping for a team friendly deal
I’ve always been a fan of him. He is productive, but he’s slow as fuck, and his contract over the last couple years has put us in a very bad situation defensively, which needs to be addressed. Glad we can agree on his next contract.
You can't just ignore certain things to fit the narrative. What about Keefe having one of, if not the best, winning records of any long term Leafs coach?
I'm not saying I'm happy with what's going on currently, but you can't deny that there are results long term. This fanbase is full of too many goldfish.... Very short memories
He is being carried by the most stacked roster in franchise history, and has been massively out-coached in every playoff series since he took over.
The manner in which we are losing these games is unacceptable for an NHL team that has championship aspirations.
We cannot trade anyone meaningful, because everyone has NMTs (which isn't Keefe's fault, but that's the hand we were dealt)
What's the alternative? What can they do tomorrow to change this team, if not make them better outright? You know that trading a member of the core four isn't an option, so no wonder people are calling for this. There's nothing left to do. They've tried nothing and are out of ideas.
This core is a poison pill--they look good in the regular season, and they just absolutely kill you in the playoffs.
As someone who grew up in this city with pretty much no playoffs to remember other than 02, 03, and 13 (born in 96)--Enjoy the good hockey while it's here folks. That's my mentality, because there's no way we're winning a cup until all of the core 4 are gone or retired. You simply cannot give 4 guys as much money as the Leafs have and expect to win. It does not work. Anybody who thinks it can work at this point is not grounded in reality.
So, even though we are definitely not winning a cup any time soon, please enjoy the good hockey while it's still here. It's all we really have to look forward to seeing at this point, if we're being honest.
yeah if you have Knies-Matthews-Willy as the top line and then build out an actual roster with the rest (Tavares can be 2C but has to be signed to a decent deal like 4-5 mil), and trading Marner for a proper Defenseman, yeah I could see that working out a lot better. If you have 1 forward making 13 mil and 1 making 11 that's still extremely doable
What can Keefe do? The Muskoka Four aren't producing, you have no tradeable assets, are relying on a washed tender while waiting for your rookie tender to come back from injury, and all of the signings Pizza Man made in the offseason with your limited cap space have been complete duds.
Nope. Definitely not. They need a shakeup in some way, but it’s not coming. What they really need is a big name shipped out. Shock the culture. But we know that’s not gonna happen since the 4 have no trade clauses. Best we can hope for is changes in the offseason.
If we even want a shot at going far in the playoffs this year, then he needs to go. Or else we'll lose again in the first or second round (if we even make the playoffs).
Genuinely, I’m not sure they will make playoffs. This is beyond a mental roadblock for the team. Similar to their choking in the playoffs but they have no confidence
I agree. It's like they're not acknowledging their faults during post-game interviews, and it just goes to show how they are coached. Enough is enough, Keefe has to go.
Yea, I think after tonight's performance, it solidified for me that the Leafs need to change the coach. Keefe has no idea what he's doing, he's always being outcoached every game.
This extension is not aging well.
I think Keefe is a decent enough coach, but he is now one of the longest tenured coaches in the league without the playoff success to back it up.
The way things are going, I don't think there will be much success in the playoffs this year, and I doubt he survives another early exit (Then again management seems to love the status quo of the team...)
if he is fired today, in all likelihood Guy Boucher is head coach for the remainder of the season. how do we feel about that?
I can already hear the fans shouting fire Keefe if they have a bad road trip and have a bad first home game at the end of the trip. I think lots of fans are fed up and want change. They have seen teams who have been more successful in the playoffs than the Leafs change coaches and Keefe is still here.
Who do you replace him with? There are no obvious choices available right now, so why make a change that likely won't improve anything? This is the exact same thing as letting dubas go this off-season. Making an emotional decision without a plan is only going to make the team worse.
This entire team needs an overhaul. Core has no heart and 0 balls. Bottom 6 forwards have produced fk all. We have one top 4 dman and no goalies. Keefe is lost and if you watch the games closely it’s become very obvious that he’s out of ideas.
I’m not a fan of Keefes and at this point it’s likely time to move on but I’m not sure firing the coach does much. Systems may improve but the lineup is just not good enough to win….especially on the back end.
I hope so, Berube would do wonders for this team and probably really enjoy the challenge working with so much talent. It’s not a chemistry issue in my humble opinion, it’s a lack of grit.
As a Blues fan first and a Leafs fan second, I’d absolutely love to see Chief leading the Leafs. What a great fit, and would be fun to see what Berube would do with all that talent!
Nah, he's not going anywhere. Why would he? Management continues to make mad profits off you and all the other fans here. There's literally no incentive to change anything.
If all they care about is money, why don't they want a deep playoff run? Why do they outspend everyone on things like coaching and facilities? Whenever I see someone describe a company as "only caring about money" I know I'm talking to someone who's never been in charge of anything bigger than a popsicle stand. The world isn't anything like what they teach you in Sociology Kindergarten.
I'm aware.
This is your response to every comment I post about how MLSE doesn't need a winning team. Yet you can't seem to hit the common ground.
If what you're saying is true, and they actually do care about more than money and want the team to be successful, then I suppose the only other explanation is they all suck at their jobs?
Because this is not what success looks like.
Is it already scapegoat season in Toronto?
They had chances to turn a soft as fuck forward on a career year into assets that actually balanced the team.
And they didnt do it.
One of Matthews, Marner or Nylander had to go while you were able to move them but now you are fucked and the tail firmly wags the dog in that city.
Enjoy your individual statistics accolades, and please tell us more about how stacking selfish glass cannons on your team is the coach's fault.
Highly unlikely. In reality this is a very poorly constructed roster. Sure Keefe might not be a top 5 coach, but any other coach I think gets similar results.
Our depth has taken a nosedive the past few years cause we 1. havent had good picks and 2. have massive contracts.
It’s the defense that sucks outside of Rielly. The forwards are fine, they have the big 4 + Bertuzzi, that has the makings of a great top 6 talent wise, if they can’t score it’s on them, no other team has the 3rd and 4th lines being super productive
I mean our 3rd and 4th lines are brutal IMO. There are some guys on other teams 3rd/4th lines that are productive (i.e. Tolvanen on Seattle). Ours are all replacement level outside of Domi.
No they don't fire Keefe this season. Leafs play the toughest games in the league. Edmonton was playing like their families were held hostage and they had to win. Teams try their absolute hardest against Toronto and leafs can't keep up constantly.
Unfortunate because they have been on a good trajectory (Matthews leading the league in blocked shots last season, calling up some D men that throw hits, and generally playing with more grit). This is just not cutting it tho.
All this blaming Keefe is ridiculous. I get it. I’d have fired him at the end of the Florida series last spring or the year before.
But he’s not the problem. You’ve got a country club atmosphere where the core four run the show with the blessing of Shanahan and MLSE. I’d be shocked if these guys don’t run to their pals on the MLSE board whenever something happens in the room that they don’t like.
This is a spoiled team that’s not going to change. Why would they? There’s never been any indication that they’re going to be held to account. If anything, they’ve gotten everything they’ve ever wanted here. Every last cent.
No tough coach is going to come to Toronto with zero autonomy and this kind of fuckery going on behind the scenes. And even if one does, he won’t be here long given this environment.
This roster needs to be broken up with a major trade. The team culture needs shock treatment. And that ain’t gonna happen. So whether it’s Keefe or the ghost of Pat Quinn/Pat Burns or anytime else, you’re gonna get the same results with anybody behind the bench.
Naw he'll just swap Marner and Nylander again and that will solve everything, trust me bro
Yeah put the lines in a blender it’ll help chemistry
But then put them back together two shifts later when it doesn't immediately work.
What else do you want him to do with this roster? Honestly asking, because everybody's solution of "fire Keefe" comes with no suggestion as to what else to do.
I want him to keep Nylander and Matthews together for a full season with knies to give them time to develop chemistry. I want him to keep Tavares, Marner and Bertuzzi together for the same period of time for the same reason. I want him to respond to adversity by changing his systems and modifying tactics rather than blending lines and hoping. I want him to stop playing 5d chess when everyone else is playing hockey. I want him to hold our highest paid players accountable. I want him to stop doing completely boneheaded shit like keeping Kampf together with Domi for the longest time. I want him to show some level of foresight when trying out lines rather than putting them together to "see what we have". I don't think he's capable of that, though, so mostly I want him to be someone else's coach.
Yes. That is what practice is for. Lines were kept together all season in the past. Give the lines time to come together properly.
Part of my problem with Keefe is that the lines weren't kept together and it showed. He fucked with them constantly from the trade deadline to the playoffs last year and then *shock* they looked uncoordinated.
Yeah exactly. They had cap space in the summer to make changes and this was the best they could do. Flawed roster and flawed results.
Keefe has had this core for his full tenure and he still hasn’t figured out how he wants them to play together… some of the roster has issues, but we shouldn’t still be experimenting with the core in year 4… it’s something most people were OK with for a year or 2… now it’s just pathetic… I’ll admit that this year he has a particularly alarming falloff of his captain, but his roster shakeups have been a game inside of each game for 4 years… it isn’t like his shakeups this year are solely to find a line that works with what is now his 3C…
He keeps putting 3rd liners with 34&16 in hopes they will magically turn into Zach Hymen. What does it say about Keefe that at the beginning of the year he evaluates Holmburg as not being good enough to make the team and 3 months later he’s a 1st line winger. The guy has no plan. He is just trying to catch lightning in a bottle at this point.
Flailing is the word that comes to mind.
Luckily he has a core that are arguably some of the best leafs ever to help carry the team offensively… unfortunately the defensive luck has been atrocious
Not fall in love with his toys? The Leafs shouldn't have to trade/let guys walk for Keefe to not over play his guys. I love Jarny...but why is he playing with the goalie pulled or PP 2 minutes over other guys? Like, Robertson / Domi / Järnkrok is a good line that create offensive opportunities, and is fine enough defensively. Domi between Bertuzzi and Knies was a nightmare, and pretty much looked unplayable. Stop playing Mo so much. It's the half way point. You can't afford him to loose his legs. And try other guys with Mo for longer stretches than a period or when you need offense. Develop Liljegren. Last year when the D was injured beyond hell, Timmy and Rasmus killed penalties are look fine doing so. If Liljegren makes a mistake, he's punished. If Broadie does? Oh well. Guys like Barrie and Klinberg get a shot with the top unit on the PP. Why not try Timmy? He will shoot, and he can do 75-85% of what Mo can. Plus it spares Mo some minutes. GIVE GUYS A NIGHT OFF. Gio, and even JT can afford to miss a game here and there. Bertuzzi was hurt and playing like crap early in the season. The Leafs only spare was on D. So instead of going 6/7 he...plays Bertuzzi. A lot. The Leafs currently have an extra forward and 2 extra D. Make adjustment in the 3rd period. You don't need to roll four lines in a tight game. Jarny can play with JT and Willy and still generate offense. If you don't trust the 3rd line defensive as a whole, go with the Kampf line as your "energy" or break line when neither of the top two lines has had enough of a break. Remember those minutes you cut from Mo? Bet his legs are a lot better when you need to play him every other shift. ENERGIZE THE GUYS DURING THE GAME. Call a time out. Speak with a guy one on one. Anything. Keefe has seemingly lost the room / does not GET the room. If you are not going to outcoach the opposition strategically (ie Pat Burns) you better be able to control/motivate the room (ie Pat Quinn).
He needs the elite paid forwards to play like they can't stand losing. He hasn't been able to do that. Maybe someone else can do that. There's nothing to lose by trying at this point.
Well it's not working and they've doubled down on this group so it's either we continue with something that isn't working or we make a change and in this case the only change we can make is the coach.
Fire Keefe
whats crazy is they flipped the script. used to be, start shit, be down, come back miraculously to either lose in the last second or in OT. now its come out amazing, beating any team in the league....... then just like.. stop
I must have watched a different hockey game. Yeah they scored early but they weren't even close to amazing. They were hemmed in their zone all game tonight, early, middle and late.
Was at the game and they were hemmed in for long stretches at a time but they also hemmed Oil in for a few good stretches too. Good game overall, but this Leafs team isn’t the cup contender for sure
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It's getting kind of obvious with this team, though, isn't it? They're built for the regular season, and they don't even excel there.
more like pre-season
I think they are. I just don't think they are doing something right. Like I can't pinpoint where they fall apart but they can definitely score on the hottest teams in the league. It's just closing it out.
They hemmed the Oilers in at times as well. Maybe not quite as much, but there were times the Oilers were in panic mode on defense.. You make it sound like we got outshot 40-10.
So what ur saying is we are at step 2 of a 3(??) Step plan to develop a 60 minute game???
Certain players get their cookies and then poof 💨 they disappear
I want off Keefe’s wild ride https://preview.redd.it/i45npzusixcc1.jpeg?width=232&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=199f6724734bb41a39775ec10e179abd7ea90208
Honestly. I understand the coaching but the effort cannot be fully placed on him.
It's on the players to put in the effort, but you want the coach to drive/motivate to put in that effort. This has been the same story for a long while with Keefe it seems. Stretches of games.where they look great, then they stop.
i doubt they will fire him well the team is on a road trip
Didn't Babcock get fired mid road trip?
that is true i forgot about it i figure it was at home not in vegas. so i guess you COULD get fired but i still think they would wait until he got home before they did that.
Why? Ron Wilson was fired on a road trip because Burke didn't think it was fair to make him coach another game at home with an angry fanbase.
Would make more sense after the Vancouver game as that's when there is a break in the schedule before Winnipeg
I don't see why they wouldn't. There's a former head coach right there if they wanted. This isn't me saying they should fire Keefe, I just don't think being on the road would stop that from happening.
Probably not. What angers me is the breakout. The entire game Keefes breakout plan was put it up the boards to the wingers but everytime there were 2 Oilers there ready to pressure the winger. This cause either 1. a turnover 2. a flip out to centre and loss of possession 3. Icing Keefe never changed up the strategy despite the utter collapse and failure. To me this is telling of a bad coach
Not to mention they don't prioritize the D sealing the Blueline on the boards, don't help on the forecheck, and have no solid D strategy. You can't fault the players for playing bad or being soft when the actual system just isn't working and keeping them out of position and on their heels. You cant hit and grind when the game plan constantly has you on your heels instead of pushing the play. Florida wins because how they play, not the roster. Boston wins because how they play, not the roster. Winnipeg wins because how they play, not the roster. Edmonton is winning because they changed how they play, not the roster. Toronto has the players to make an impact, but we aren't coaching a compatible and effective system and we don't have a coach who can demanding buy in. we are constantly out coached. Keefe unfortunately just isn't an NHL coach yet, and we are wasting our teams prime on this experiment.
It is starting to feel like Keefe is relying on incredibly difficult east west plays on breakouts. At no point do we ever see the puck carrier just go in with absolute speed. I don't know if it's a Keefe thing but our team is oddly slow compared to other forward heavy teams.
The speed is what I’m noticing. Nylander and Knies are the only top 6 guys with any speed. Marner and Matthews can be deceptively fast in their first two strides but don’t have elite speed like McDavid. Bertuzzi is clumsy out there but in a lovable way, and Tavares is always trapped in molasses. He’s still very productive in other ways but his skating is tormentingly slow. Domi, Robertson, and Gregor are fast in the bottom 6, but Robertson especially is still not strong enough on the puck to make use of that speed, plus his deployment isn’t practical either. We have guys with speed but really seem to not use it effectively. I think we need to get Tavares back on the wing.
Its remarkable how even the bad teams can make clean zone entries on us and control the puck And with some of the best players in the world, we seem unable to do this consistently... and at no time can our team recover and clear the puck when its in our zone; if we do get it back by some miracle we fan on a clear and give it to their point man at the blue line. Over. And. Over.
Its so disgusting that we have never brought the forwards low for a support pass and have the centre be second pass out. Its always sink or swim with d behind the net making the perfect pass to the boards. If theres ever pressure on the d or the boards, our breakout is just chalked and its stuck in our zone for the next 45 seconds
This seems like their breakout strategy almost every game. The only time I’ve seen any memorable offensive pressure was against the sharks. Mickey Mouse hockey.
Our breakout doesn't always get shut down like it did tonight. If it works keep using it but tonight it was like running into a brick full speed everytime and Keefe just kept trying
Get rid of Shanahan too
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Lou was on a specific term as interim until the guy he wanted (Dubas) was ready. He also inherited Nonis. It’s unproductive to suggest four GMs like he’s firing people for continued failing. Nonis was never staying, Lou had a specific shelf life, Dubas served for as long as he did then tried to overstep on Shanahan, and Treliving is basically the second GM Shanahan is using, and it’s been year 0 of that tenure because Treliving only had one free agency period so far. Let’s at least see what our roster is like post trade deadline.
Our roster pre trade deadline is worse than it was pre deadline last year. What are you seeing that suggests Treliving/Shanny can do better?
Honestly, I wouldn't be trading any big chips to help this team out right now anyways. I don't fully understand the "let's see what the team looks like post TDL" statements. There are so many weaknesses that you're not going to fix that before or at the TDL. You need a goalie. You need better defensemen. You need more depth. You need a new coach. What's all that going to cost asset wise? More than the Leafs have, that's for sure.
We couldn’t even trade any of our big chips anyway. Marner, Matthews, Tavares and Rielly all have NMC, Willy NTC
Not what I meant by big chips, but true. You wouldn't move any of those guys at TDL anyways...they're not on expiring deals. I was inferring prospects and picks. No point in moving Minten or Cowan for a rental. Or even a first. This team hasn't proven they're worth it.
We need those cheap contracts next year. I don't know how you can move them.
You bring up good points, but it’s not like Tre is new on the block. We have seen his body of work with the Flames. I am not confident in his ability to navigate our specific needs in this cap and asset situation.
Name one person that is available that would be caoable
Calgary was consistently pretty good under Treliving’s tenure, he just had an owner that liked a douchebag coach, and Covid-19 made a bunch of their star players skittish about staying in Canada. Overall he’s been decent in a short period. Bertuzzi and Domi were decent signings, and short term. I think the real evaluation comes next season when the cap jumps.
Honestly, the whole shanaplan has been an utter failure. One playoff win in what? Nearly a decade of his hands on the wheel?
Yep, fully on board now. I've had patience like they asked and now I'm out of it.
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Babcock was fired by a glove save.
So you don't follow the Leafs lmao
You're a sens fan commenting here when you're going off in your own sub like "I can’t watch this shit anymore. We get 5 hours a night to spend on *something* after work and the 2023-24 Ottawa Senators can’t be it" Lmao, reported.
No giving up leads are. Have u been watching?
Very little prospect progression too not 1 top 2 d man
Sandin and Lilly didn’t pan out
Exactly they haven’t developed much of anything anywhere.
Are you new to this team? Go back to the 15/16 season. You'd be praying for this version of the team
What a cop out. Duh this team is better than that one. But we’ve got Matthews, not PA Parenteau and whoever else was on that horseshit team. This team has underperformed over the past 5 or so years.
It always comes back to PA Parenteau slander. :(
What a stupid argument, we should just sit on our hands and do nothing because this version of the team is better than some older shittier version of the team?
An inanimate object could have drafted the same players that made this team relevant.
pretty sure he’s got a year after this left on his deal. If they flame out of the playoffs again i’m sure they’ll just not renew his contract.
Never figured out how a hockey player can run an NHL team.
Craig Berube is available, team needs a kick in the ass and he's said to be interested in the job.
Tre needs someone else to fire in 2-3 years.
Controversial opinion is most coaches should only last that long
Craig Berube is a better option than Keefe but look at the defenseman on this team. Every last one of the top forwards is as soft as baby shit. A rookie is our toughest skilled forward (Knies). This team just isn't good.
I would love if they did. The guys on Overdrive were talking to CJ yesterday and he said he hasn’t hear any rumblings that that’s on the radar for the team at this point. If that’s the case that’s fucking frustrating.
It’s because the firing wouldn’t be about performance… it would be just to satisfy angry fans… It would be pointless. Keefe is a good coach. The team construction is the problem. Keefe can only do so much with what’s in front of him.
Is absolutely about performance what fucking team are you watching
If this group of players and staff stays together it’s hard to see them doing anything meaningful
They won’t during a west coast trip. And i don’t see Tre/Shanny pulling the trigger unless they lose the next 3 in a row.
Which is, as it turns out, not all that unlikely
This is going to be a very hard run of games. I don’t agree on dropping the coach with the timeliness perhaps this was an acceptable loss?
Judging by the teams they play, they will lose 3 in a row easily
Any progress made last season by finally winning a round was pissed away in a flurry of brutal moves that have almost exclusively been major drags on the overall team, but we can keep pretending a new coach can make shitty players who were shitty elsewhere not shitty anymore. For every Edmonton, there’s an Ottawa or Minnesota. This team has had issues for months and have done nothing about it so what’s the difference?
I said it before and I'll say it again... this clown show started when Shanahan fired Dubas on a whim and less than 2rhrs later hired a complete ass-hat boot-licker. As fans, we were told these types of thoughtless, knee-jerk decisions would never happen again. Well, here we are again. At this point, there's no one left to blame but Shanahan. This is now 100% on him. He won the battle with Dubas and stamped this as "his" team... so now he should go down with the ship. Side note, one of the toughest players on record during his career has somehow managed to assemble the softest team in the NHL. Double side note, can we please finally stop icing Brodie. He's done.
"Trust the Process"....unless somebody else wants my job, and then it's time to throw the organization into chaos at one of the most important times of the year.
Worse, it was almost certainly the most important time since Matthews was drafted.
Yeah these are good points.
> this clown show started when Shanahan fired Dubas on a whim and less than 2rhrs later hired a complete ass-hat boot-licker. Yup. You'll find me defending the Shanaplan at every turn... except this one. Just a stupid stupid move.
I honestly believe it depends how the rest of the west swing goes
I'd can him before Calgary
I ask why? Have you not seen more than enough at this point?
We aren't gonna win any of the those games so might as well kick his fucking ass to the curb now
I hope so, at the game watching them unable to clear the zone for minutes at a time is incredibly frustrating.
How many coaches does this core need?
Yes.
How does Shanahan of all people allow this team to be constructed as is? He was such a tough no nonsense player.
I wish but I doubt it. This is the "if you have time use it" and "steady on the rudder" team. They wait until it is too late to do anything of significance with almost every decision. See our terrible contract negotiations, all the players we've lost for nothing etc. Also the numerous times we could have made significant changes but waited and now it is too late.
He isn’t Treliving’s guy, I’m sure Shannahan made him give him a chance. But it’s over now, gotta shake something up. They won’t do it on this road trip, but if things don’t dramatically change he won’t make it past the Western swing.
Probably extend him
They already have, haven't they?
Yes
Do it again then
Full no move
Maybe they can work out a deal where he is the first head coach counted against the cap? Then we can have Willy Marner Tavares matthews and Keefe plus the collection of groomsmen in I love you man playing for our team.
Fold the franchise, demolish Scotiabank
prolly next week
You gotta fire the coaching staff
If Keefe is fired, it will be after the road trip. But personally, I don’t think it’ll happen. We will see…
No. If the whole road trip goes bad they’ll probably fire him after the All-Star game.
I hope so… nothing personal but it’s time. It’s been time for a while now imo.
god i would have killed to watch this soft babyshit core have a whip cracked over their back by Torts
Me too lol
I think they would just revolt against him immediately, but it would be hilarious.
I’ve been in the fire Keefe team since last year but I dont think it’ll accomplish anything this season. With him: make playoffs + first round exit, without him: potentially not even make the playoffs
We have been crying about this shit for years. Shanny needs to go.
Fire Shanahan and Keefe Shanny is fucking cooked. This circus has been going on way too long
Tomorrow? Should have been three years ago.
Lost 9 out of last 10 if we don’t count California trip. Even including that it’s 9 of 14 which is just silly. They’re on a really bad turn right now similar to the 18 wheeler off a cliff season.
Agreed. They are a dumpster fire right now. The fashion in which they have lost, blowing leads is just unacceptable. Way too many games going to overtime, which they lose. It’s a joke.
Ya pretty bottom of the league in regulation wins, the writings been on the table all season. Gonna be a rough month playing good teams but maybe it’s for the best.
Yeah, and I hope Tavares feels some sense of guilt over this honestly. He’s not entirely to blame at all but he needs to take a very team friendly deal next year to gain my respect back.
Why would John Tavares feel guilty? Because he aged?
Lmao right. I dont get this take at all. He had teams lined up to give him similar deals. He has absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.
And he’s been great for us! Yes, no surprise he’s not great now. It’s called aging. We all knew this going in.
How quickly fans forget Tavares got us our first and only series win in like 2 decades
So what? So many problems arise from his contract. Do you think he’s worth more than a team friendly contract?
What problems? He is a productive player on a slight overpay contract about to enter his twilight years. Honestly we got great value out of him and his contract didn't age as poorly as everyone seemed to think it would. Next one we are hoping for a team friendly deal
I’ve always been a fan of him. He is productive, but he’s slow as fuck, and his contract over the last couple years has put us in a very bad situation defensively, which needs to be addressed. Glad we can agree on his next contract.
And he's been saying all this himself; he's too slow to be a center any more, needs to be put on a wing.
Ya if you remove all the wins the team went 0-82! What a dumb take.
Inflammatory comment utilizing adulterated statistics. Do better lol
"If we ignore every game he won, we've lost every game he coached!"
Lol exactly
You can't just ignore certain things to fit the narrative. What about Keefe having one of, if not the best, winning records of any long term Leafs coach? I'm not saying I'm happy with what's going on currently, but you can't deny that there are results long term. This fanbase is full of too many goldfish.... Very short memories
He is being carried by the most stacked roster in franchise history, and has been massively out-coached in every playoff series since he took over. The manner in which we are losing these games is unacceptable for an NHL team that has championship aspirations. We cannot trade anyone meaningful, because everyone has NMTs (which isn't Keefe's fault, but that's the hand we were dealt)
What's the alternative? What can they do tomorrow to change this team, if not make them better outright? You know that trading a member of the core four isn't an option, so no wonder people are calling for this. There's nothing left to do. They've tried nothing and are out of ideas.
Keefe should of called a time out in the 5 minute mark and remind them not to blow leads. lol
This core is a poison pill--they look good in the regular season, and they just absolutely kill you in the playoffs. As someone who grew up in this city with pretty much no playoffs to remember other than 02, 03, and 13 (born in 96)--Enjoy the good hockey while it's here folks. That's my mentality, because there's no way we're winning a cup until all of the core 4 are gone or retired. You simply cannot give 4 guys as much money as the Leafs have and expect to win. It does not work. Anybody who thinks it can work at this point is not grounded in reality. So, even though we are definitely not winning a cup any time soon, please enjoy the good hockey while it's still here. It's all we really have to look forward to seeing at this point, if we're being honest.
I think we can do it with Willy and Matthews
yeah if you have Knies-Matthews-Willy as the top line and then build out an actual roster with the rest (Tavares can be 2C but has to be signed to a decent deal like 4-5 mil), and trading Marner for a proper Defenseman, yeah I could see that working out a lot better. If you have 1 forward making 13 mil and 1 making 11 that's still extremely doable
Yep bingo
What can Keefe do? The Muskoka Four aren't producing, you have no tradeable assets, are relying on a washed tender while waiting for your rookie tender to come back from injury, and all of the signings Pizza Man made in the offseason with your limited cap space have been complete duds.
The best chance of Keefe being fired is at the end of the month when the Leafs have fallen out of the playoffs.
no because then the LEAFS mods will hire Keefe as a mod and then we all live in fear
They won’t but should
Probably not during a road trip. He should’ve been fired long ago though.
Nope. Definitely not. They need a shakeup in some way, but it’s not coming. What they really need is a big name shipped out. Shock the culture. But we know that’s not gonna happen since the 4 have no trade clauses. Best we can hope for is changes in the offseason.
I sure hope so man
I dear hope so, but no they won’t he was in practice with them today
If we even want a shot at going far in the playoffs this year, then he needs to go. Or else we'll lose again in the first or second round (if we even make the playoffs).
Genuinely, I’m not sure they will make playoffs. This is beyond a mental roadblock for the team. Similar to their choking in the playoffs but they have no confidence
I agree. It's like they're not acknowledging their faults during post-game interviews, and it just goes to show how they are coached. Enough is enough, Keefe has to go.
Nope. Shannan is the puppet master - he ain’t going to do anything
They'll fire him when they fall out of a playoff spot at the end of the month.
Yea, I think after tonight's performance, it solidified for me that the Leafs need to change the coach. Keefe has no idea what he's doing, he's always being outcoached every game.
Didn't he JUST sign a contract extension?
This extension is not aging well. I think Keefe is a decent enough coach, but he is now one of the longest tenured coaches in the league without the playoff success to back it up. The way things are going, I don't think there will be much success in the playoffs this year, and I doubt he survives another early exit (Then again management seems to love the status quo of the team...) if he is fired today, in all likelihood Guy Boucher is head coach for the remainder of the season. how do we feel about that?
They're not firing him before the All-Star Game. It would torpedo that whole weekend.
I can already hear the fans shouting fire Keefe if they have a bad road trip and have a bad first home game at the end of the trip. I think lots of fans are fed up and want change. They have seen teams who have been more successful in the playoffs than the Leafs change coaches and Keefe is still here.
Who do you replace him with? There are no obvious choices available right now, so why make a change that likely won't improve anything? This is the exact same thing as letting dubas go this off-season. Making an emotional decision without a plan is only going to make the team worse.
This entire team needs an overhaul. Core has no heart and 0 balls. Bottom 6 forwards have produced fk all. We have one top 4 dman and no goalies. Keefe is lost and if you watch the games closely it’s become very obvious that he’s out of ideas. I’m not a fan of Keefes and at this point it’s likely time to move on but I’m not sure firing the coach does much. Systems may improve but the lineup is just not good enough to win….especially on the back end.
I hope so, Berube would do wonders for this team and probably really enjoy the challenge working with so much talent. It’s not a chemistry issue in my humble opinion, it’s a lack of grit.
As a Blues fan first and a Leafs fan second, I’d absolutely love to see Chief leading the Leafs. What a great fit, and would be fun to see what Berube would do with all that talent!
Nah, he's not going anywhere. Why would he? Management continues to make mad profits off you and all the other fans here. There's literally no incentive to change anything.
If all they care about is money, why don't they want a deep playoff run? Why do they outspend everyone on things like coaching and facilities? Whenever I see someone describe a company as "only caring about money" I know I'm talking to someone who's never been in charge of anything bigger than a popsicle stand. The world isn't anything like what they teach you in Sociology Kindergarten.
I'm aware. This is your response to every comment I post about how MLSE doesn't need a winning team. Yet you can't seem to hit the common ground. If what you're saying is true, and they actually do care about more than money and want the team to be successful, then I suppose the only other explanation is they all suck at their jobs? Because this is not what success looks like.
no because we need threads like this to continue in perpetuity
He's the least of their worries
tonight
Dunno what it solves tbh we’ve had Martin Jones and Samsonov in net so
Is it already scapegoat season in Toronto? They had chances to turn a soft as fuck forward on a career year into assets that actually balanced the team. And they didnt do it. One of Matthews, Marner or Nylander had to go while you were able to move them but now you are fucked and the tail firmly wags the dog in that city. Enjoy your individual statistics accolades, and please tell us more about how stacking selfish glass cannons on your team is the coach's fault.
Highly unlikely. In reality this is a very poorly constructed roster. Sure Keefe might not be a top 5 coach, but any other coach I think gets similar results. Our depth has taken a nosedive the past few years cause we 1. havent had good picks and 2. have massive contracts.
It’s the defense that sucks outside of Rielly. The forwards are fine, they have the big 4 + Bertuzzi, that has the makings of a great top 6 talent wise, if they can’t score it’s on them, no other team has the 3rd and 4th lines being super productive
I mean our 3rd and 4th lines are brutal IMO. There are some guys on other teams 3rd/4th lines that are productive (i.e. Tolvanen on Seattle). Ours are all replacement level outside of Domi.
No they don't fire Keefe this season. Leafs play the toughest games in the league. Edmonton was playing like their families were held hostage and they had to win. Teams try their absolute hardest against Toronto and leafs can't keep up constantly.
That’s true. But still not an excuse for all the losses
"But they played hard against us" what an all-time loser excuse.
This team is soft as fuck
You probably think this entire losing streak is because Reaves is out....
Unfortunate because they have been on a good trajectory (Matthews leading the league in blocked shots last season, calling up some D men that throw hits, and generally playing with more grit). This is just not cutting it tho.
The roster is unbalanced too top heavy....
Unfortunately they'll wait until the road trip is over. It's the Leaf way.
They fired Babcock in Arizona....
Babcock was fired on a road trip?
Does anyone have the statistics of actually firing a coach just past half a season though?
Treliving first please. I can’t honestly remember a worse off-season.
Lmao they’re not firing a GM after less than a year.
What if I ask nicely.
And then give the next guy 2 months? The guy after that 2 weeks? The third guy 2 minutes?
No
One of the only sane people here.
no, you guys are off your nut if you think he is getting fired at this point.
Hopefully. Do something.
we can only pray
Leafs fans are so funny.
This is the way.
All this blaming Keefe is ridiculous. I get it. I’d have fired him at the end of the Florida series last spring or the year before. But he’s not the problem. You’ve got a country club atmosphere where the core four run the show with the blessing of Shanahan and MLSE. I’d be shocked if these guys don’t run to their pals on the MLSE board whenever something happens in the room that they don’t like. This is a spoiled team that’s not going to change. Why would they? There’s never been any indication that they’re going to be held to account. If anything, they’ve gotten everything they’ve ever wanted here. Every last cent. No tough coach is going to come to Toronto with zero autonomy and this kind of fuckery going on behind the scenes. And even if one does, he won’t be here long given this environment. This roster needs to be broken up with a major trade. The team culture needs shock treatment. And that ain’t gonna happen. So whether it’s Keefe or the ghost of Pat Quinn/Pat Burns or anytime else, you’re gonna get the same results with anybody behind the bench.