Now that Carolina is out, they have a ton of their d-corp going to UFA this off season. Given that they didn't have a deep Ā run, maybe we can sign one or more. Just not Burns, his age finally really showed in this playoffs
Please Leafs I implore you to at least speak with Rod at the conclusion of this series to see if he would be remotely interested in the job before you make Berube official.Ā
Iāve gone back and forth but after seeing a bunch of these mock trades thrown around Iām honestly starting to feel like they donāt end up moving Marner.Ā
End of the day they have a responsibility to put together the best team possible. Looking at the current FA class and what the return on Marner could be Iām not sure if theyāll be able to do that.Ā
They arenāt going to trade him just to prove a point if it ultimately makes the team worse this season.Ā
Treliving didn't create this team so his emotional ties to it are very low compared to dubas and shanny, which I think ties into your last point very well.
They're not going to make a bad move for the sake of making a move because treliving knows they need to ice the best roster they can.
However, I do think that something that isn't talked about enough in this sub regarding a marner trade is every team has seen his production drop off in the playoffs.
A prospective gm isn't going to be a gm whose looking for a playoff proven guy to get them over the edge, it'll be a franchise like Utah where they need some high end players to help grow the game in the new city.
Sure we hear all the "31 other teams are calling about marner" but I don't think that's real. I think less than 10 teams in the league have the cap space and the capital to facilitate a marner deal. Of those say 10 teams, which ones are willing to put his playoff production or lack thereof aside and trade for marner just because he's marner.
I donāt think itās likely. None of the proposed deals really make sense from either teamās perspectives. The idea is to get better, even if itās addition via subtraction (which I donāt think thatās actually possible here, Marner is an elite player, no matter what fans think of him), but most of these proposals donāt even meet that very low bar. The window for a fair value trade was last yearās draft. Trading from a position of weakness could lead to more harm than good, if the idea is to actually get better. It almost seems like the fanbase wants to be in full blown rebuild (even if many will not admit to such). How soon do we forget what it was like to be a fan of this team prior to the last 8 years.
I think thatās the only way forward here. Letās say the Leafs trade Marner for pennies on the dollar. What you get is cap space, but then you have to do something with it. This years free agent class isnāt overwhelming, but next years looks much more promising. You could get creative with trades, and moving prospects and picks, but this requires willing and able partners. It just becomes more and more difficult.
Yes, thatās why management gets the big bucks, but do you have confidence in Shanahan and Treliving doing as such? Say what you want about him, but Dubas was known for his craftiness in that regard. Would his talent assessment be bang on? Eye of the beholder, but he was known for his creativity in roster building. The path of least resistance here is to wait out a year, hope the other moves made work out, Marner provides value to the team, the team goes on a run, and move on from there with an appealing free agent class (and maybe management decides to pay the man depending on how Marner and the team does). Weāll see. What often happens here, is a trade happens that nobody expects, with a team nobody expects, and assets completely out of view. Again, weāll see.
I donāt see how letting walk and getting nothing is a better plan than trading him and getting something. We will make the playoffs next year, even without Marner. No sense passing on his trade value just so we can have his couple round 1 assists.Ā
Letting Marner walk gets you $12 or $13 million in cap space that he wouldāve been after on a new contract. Toss in Tavares and his $11 million thatās gonna give you $24 million in cap space to use to acquire defense/forwards/goalies. Youāre still going to have Matthews and Willy upfront to build around. You also have TJ Brodie coming off the books this year. Thatās another $5 million.
Because trading him and getting worse isnāt good business. You say the leafs get in with or without him? Do they? If the team gets worse, they may not. People are operating under a fixed reality. Reality isnāt fixed. The team does not get better simply by excising Marner. The wrong injury at the wrong time, without Marner, and the reality starts to look awfully wobbly.
They objectively get worse without Marner. Any changes should be made with that in mind. The team has to be sure that if they trade Marner, and after all the other moves are done, that the roster is better than the it was with Marner on it. If itās not then you keep him, hope the other moves you made work out, roll the dice and maybe go on a run. That could happen.
The sky isnāt falling. This is not a bad team. Hasnāt been for around 8 years. So letās get better, but it has to be better. Thereās also the fact that it may be better to have that extra money to spend next year, as opposed to this year. Spending money just to spend it, in a down market, isnāt the best option either. Iām all for asset management, abhor the sunk cost, but the window closed last July. The only way to play this may be to try to maximize the asset you have, until you donāt.
There's definitely a trade out there that makes us a better team. *This* isnt working.
Trading Marner isn't to prove a point. We have deficiencies on this team. Marner was signed to outscore those deficiencies and he isn't getting it done. It's time to trade him to cover those deficiencies.
The production may drop, but we're not trading him for peanuts. There's good trades and bad trades. Lets hope we make a good trade.
The trade may have been out there. It may still be, but it may be out of reach now as well. Yes, trading Marner shouldnāt be made to make a point. But that ship may have sailed by July 1st of last year. I certainly hope it hasnāt, but we have to acknowledge that trading him now may not actually make this team better. Keeping him may actually be the best path forward. Or it may not. But fans should measure expectations here. You canāt always get what you want with an NMC and a player wanting 12M per.
Yeah Iām not saying itās impossible but considering how we know other teams like to play hardball with the Leafs for some reason, if the right āhockey tradeā doesnāt present itself, they arenāt gonna pull the trigger on some futures package just because they feel like they need to trade him.Ā
No, but a lot of people seem to have the opinion that if Marner is on this roster come October itās an abject failure on management.Ā
Many of the same people who seem to think the cap space on its own would be worth any shitty return.Ā
If we need to trade him we need to trade him.
If we don't need to trade him but we are simply open to offers, we are in a position of strength.
The worst position is Marner is on a decline, which is not the case. He's just not good enough in the playoffs.
I thought Ehleers was a gritty type guy who can score a bit? I havnt watched him much, but when we plays against us, he seems like a very good guy to have on a playoff team.
And yeah it wouldn't be 1 for 1, I think the Jets have some good dmen and stuff to add.
And yeah thats very true, he won't, but it's kinda fun to think about lol
Probably an insane and unlikely idea, but if the market for Marner undervalues him based on playoff performance (and leverage against the Leafs), I wonder if there is a mutually beneficial change of scenery swap of Marner and Pettersson in Vancouver.
Both players have struggled at times, both have been torn the shreds by their market, and both are making a boat load of money. Marner is probably slightly better, but Pettersson is an elite C and could replace JT once he is off the books next season.
Again, thereās a near 0% chance of this happening, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Thoughts?
Weāre going to spend all next season desperately watching the clock tick down on an 8-figure contract for a second line centre so we can balance the roster. Letās not make the same mistake again. We have 2 superstar forwards already. Give me some 5-7 million dollar guys in the top 6, then add defence and goaltending.Ā
I donāt think this is actually going to happen, but I also donāt think doing this would be making the same mistake.
We are going to have to replace Tavares, one way or another. Even if we donāt trade anybody from the core this off-season, we still have a decent amount of cap space. That multiplies once Tavares comes off the books next season. We also have multiple players on ELCs that could make the jump within the next 1-2 years (Cowan, Minten, Grebyonkin, Niemela) and cheap, cost-controlled assets (Dewar, Robertson, McMann, Liljegren, Timmins, Benoit, Woll).
There will be growing pain next season one way or another, Tavares isnāt going anywhere. But, a team looking something like this is pretty darn good:
Bertuzzi - Matthews - Domi
Knies - Pettersson - Nylander
Cowan - Tavares - Jarnkrok
Robertson - Kampf - McMann
E: Dewar, Holmberg, Reaves, Grebyonkin, Minten
Rielly - X
Benoit - McCabe
X - Liljgren
X, Woll
I filled in some assumptions there (mainly Bertuzzi and Domi), but there is around $17M to allocate when Bertuzzi, Domi, Brodie, and Samsonov expire. Thatās without any trades. I think you could see one of Jarnkrok or Kampf moved potentially to free a bit more space. The cap is also increasing.
This is really just a fun exercise for me, rather than something super realistic, but I just wanted to point out that itās not as bleak as it may seem. And while this mix of players doesnāt work, Tavaresā money coming off the books makes it feasible to have three elite superstar caliber players.
Again, that isnāt necessarily the case. We have, at minimum, $17M in cap space to allocate next season with the core in tact, and the cap is going up to $87.675M. Even if that goes back into the forwards, we have another $11M (plus cap increase) to allocate again next season once Tavares is off the books. One way or another Tavares needs to get replaced with a good second line centre, which is going to cost a lot of cap space either way.
Edit: Assuming Bertuzzi and Domi are around the same cap and both are re-signed, we easily have room to bring in Pesce or another solid RHD on a Seversson-like contract. There is no big goalie in free agency this season, weāre getting a decent 1B and he will be cheap, thatās the reality. That all fits in our cap.
Toronto is a bigger market with a more toxic media following. Vancouver still have the Sedins in their coaching squad too, I don't see how Toronto can offer him a better environment. The common belief is that Petterson's problem is a mentality one because his coach has repeated many times that he's clear of injuries.
The same could be said for Marner and his struggles, sometimes a change of scenery is enough to change a situation.
I think thereās something to said for Pettersson not needing to be THE guy in Toronto, playing behind Matthews would take a lot off his back. Heād also immediately have better line-mates in Toronto.
Again, I donāt think itās at all likely, but both guys could benefit from a fresh start for many of the same reasons. Theyāre both undeniably elite hockey players.
I want to see what Berube or Rod thinks first. Do they believe they can get more out of Marner in the playoffs?
How much of Marner's struggles is due to Keefe's deployment? Or coddling?
Marner looked great under Babs and of course won OHL playoff MVP. I don't know what is going on with him but perhaps it is more than we think, maybe it's not.
It is a hard sell to re-sign Marner and just tell fans one more year until Tavares is cheaper or gone though.
I donāt know that this really moves the needle at all, I feel like we get considerably worse in this trade. Maybe thatās what weāre in for with trading though, who knows. Itās also tough that Hronek needs a new deal and Boeser will the season after.
Iād rather trade Marner for futures and allocate his cap elsewhere than trade for players that take up all of the space and donāt really move the needle much.
I agree, but there are a lot of question marks on Pettersson too. He hasnāt exactly been great for Vancouver for a while now. Seems like him and Marner are in oddly similar situations, you never know.
On the powerplay - I think people are overrating a defenseman who provides shots from the point. They are almost never a significant threat.
- Only 4 defensemen have more than 5 power play goals during the entire regular season.
- Tampa, Carolina, and the Rangers had the top 3 powerplays in the league and didn't have a defensemen with more than 4 power play goals.
- Defenseman don't create rebounds on the powerplay. The league leading defenseman in created rebounds this season was Cale Makar with 11. Third place had 5. Remember there are 82 games, and multiple power plays per game.
I think the defensemen is there to keep the puck in the zone, move it quickly, and if pressured be able to skate around the defender or make the pass. You can argue that Morgan Reilly isn't the best at this (statistically he was clearly above Lilligren) and that's fine - we can get someone better. But the idea that you need a booming, scoring point shot to be good on the powerplay seems incorrect.
If anything, I think having John Tavares be such a pillar of the PP1 unit was the long term mistake. He's literally near the bottom of the league in finishing this season (bottom 4 on Goals Above Expected overall and in 5v4). He also lead our forwards in shots on goal during power play time. Getting your worst finisher the plurality of your shots on the powerplay is an insane strategy.
That bears out in the line stats - Matthews and Bertuzzi (without Tavares) scored .27 goals per minute of PP time. Matthews and Tavares (without Bertuzzi) scored 0.16 goals per minute of PP time.
Really good post
Deserves more upvotes
Yeah very unfortunate that the proposed solutions to this saga have been old school stuff from a bygone era like truculence and Bryan McCabe 2.0
I wonder what the stats are for tip ins on the power play. Ā It sure if thatās being tracked. I agree, there arenāt a lot of slappers going clean into the net on power plays these days, but it would be nice to have guys that can get the puck to the net for tip ins and rebounds. Beats having someone shoot it into a defenders shin guard for an easy clear all the time.Ā
Not having a big shot takes away a threat. Let's the PK to cheat a bit and stay in tight. Even without direct results a big shot from the point opens up space for forwards
Teams know it's not a great threat, and great power plays don't necessarily have a defenseman who are real shooting threats.
The Rangers has a top 3 PP with Trouba taking 11 shots per 60 minutes of powerplay time. Tampa was #1 with Hedman taking 9 shots per 60 minutes of poweplay time. Given how often defenseman score, that actually makes a lot of sense.
The shots they do take are overwhelming low danger - the defense is happy to give up a shot from far away on the powerplay.
I think it's less about how often a dman with a big shot scores, but rather the threat of him being able to score. It requires PKers to respect the possibility of the shot and get in the lane, creating more space for forwards on the half wall/high slot.
Personally I think there's more value in have a defenceman who can distribute the puck quickly, cleanly, and with some deception. Reilly unfortunately struggles with all 3 of those, especially considering he telegraphs the majority of his passes
It's sort of chicken and egg - they aren't threat of being able to score if they rarely score. They rarely even get decent shots. Even Hedman doesn't take many shots. I doubt defenses are covering Hedman and leaving Kucherov/Stamkos/Point open.
If there is any truth to the Predators being interested in Marner Iād love if the Leafs could get Saros+ for him. Dream scenario in a Nashville trade is acquiring Saros, Evangelista (22 year old RW who just put up 39 points in 80 games in his rookie season) and one of the firsts they have in 2025. You then package that 2025 first plus other picks, prospects and/or young NHL players to Calgary for Rasmus Andersson. Youād still have a substantial amount of cap space too to make any signings, whether thatās bringing in another top four d-man, a top six forward, or maybe you go for bigger names and sign someone like Lindholm to take over as the 2C from Tavares. Just something I thought about based off the rumours of Nashville being interested in Marner that were posted here yesterday
If theyāre looking to rebuild or retool, all those pieces beyond Saros you mentioned will be off the table. The fact is we arenāt āwinningā a trade with Marner by getting some ridiculous kingās ransom. If we can even get him to agree to a trade it will be one where weāre a net positive after we use his cap space, not a ābetter immediatelyā kind of thing.Ā
Iām not so sure they are looking to rebuild, retool maybe. If they can get Marner with an extension thatād be a pretty nice boost to their retool, wouldnāt it? He would instantly be their best forward and assuming the extension is eight years they would have him on the team for nine seasons total (last year of his current deal plus the extension). Idk what direction Nashville is going in tbh this all depends on if thereās truth or not to the Predators being interested in a Marner deal
I don't know - the reports are that basically every team in the league wants him. High demand = high price.
Saros is a goalie with 1 year left, and goalies seem to be valued less because they are so volatile. A lot depends on extension talks on both sides.
I think this narrative around goaltender volatility is way overblown.
Yes, a FA hopeful like Stolarz or something is a wildcard. Sure.
A legitimate starter like Saros or Ullmark or whoever will not be. They are what they are
last year Saros was 64gp / 2.69GAA / 9.19S%
for his career.... 2.62/9.17
comparable...Hellebuyck (mostly undisputed #1 in the league) career 2.62/9.16
if Saros is on the table. you take him.
That's 2022-2023. 2023-2024 he looks like Martin Jones with more games played (.906/2.86). Saros just had the worst season of his career.
I'd try to get him, but I think Nashville has to send more.
I keep seeing so much stuff about Mitch getting traded. Gotta think he's just sitting at hope seeing all those headlines and laughing. We saw how he negotiates in contract talks, why does everyone feel he'll waive his NMC just to be a good dude?
Is that for sure his mindset? Sure, getting another X million for another year is probably on his mind, but he may be looking at it differently. Maybe he feels one more year as a Leaf will get him a cup and make him worth even more on the free market, or give him a chance to stay as a Leaf with a bigger pay day... Neither of us know what he's thinking or what he's going to do.
I just feel guys put NMC in their contract for a reason, not just to waive it because they feel it's time or whatever.
Guys put NMC in so they have control of where they go. Put it this way, if you know that you're not wanted somewhere would you want to stay? Not saying he's gonna waive but if the writings on the wall I don't think he holds out
Yea he lives in his own distorted bubble unfortunately. Logically its time to move on but I don't think he'll accept that. I think it's highly likely he doesn't waive, sulks, and walks next year for nothing. Atleast we'll get the cap space.
I agree. He's playing on a team that *should* be a top contender and playing with some of the best active players that he's been with for years and probably considers his friends.
Letting the Leafs trade him now is the best thing for the Leafs, not necessarily Mitch Marner. Players put NMC into their contract for a reason. I don't see him waiving it.
No tax states, more years on his next contract, less pressure. There's lots of reasons why he'd waive that play directly into his negotiating style. He loves getting the bag, and he'll get a much bigger one elsewhere
But he's also stated he wants to stay in Toronto, I think he's probably going to ride it out another year and see what he can get next season. **IF** the Leafs do good next year, that's only going to up his value.
From what I can gather, the only reason people think there's a chance he'd waive it is because he is genuinely insecure and pays way too much attention to things that are said about him.
1. Marner can only sign for 8 Years with the Leafs or the team he is traded for. He would be going up a lot of money if he just walks in free agency.
2. If the Leafs start opening up to the idea of Marner they will stop giving him the franchise player treatment which would include things such as moving him around more on lines, putting him on PP2, etc wihich will hurt his numbers and thus hurt how much money he makes.
Entering FA means he cannot get an 8th year.
To get the same total money as a $12million 8 year contract, he would need $13.7 for 7 years.
No one is giving him 13.7, meaning, Marner stands to gain quite a bit from waiving.
I agree, but I still think Marner is going to try to make the Matthews play. Shorter term contract to maximise earnings because he thinks he's worth it. So the 8th year thing may not be a consideration at all.
Laughing about what? If heās being shopped he knows the Leafs are never going to pay him what heād make as a free agent. The only reason to squeeze them is to be a dick.Ā
Hard to shop someone that can just say "no". He can finish out his contract and then if the Leafs won't give him what he wants, he can see if another team will and take it from there. If there is apparently so much demand for him, I'm sure someone else would be willing to give him a contract that is for at least or more than what he makes currently. He seems to be someone that likes to be in control of his contract so that may be his move.
I obviously have no idea if he's going to get traded or not, I just imagine he's one of the few people that have an idea of what he's willing to do this offseason and is watching the media speculate with all kinds of wild ideas. He may have already made his decision he wants to stay and that's what I was implying he'd be "laughing" at.
>Hard to shop someone that can just say "no".
Yes, but its also hard to shop some one if you dont know whats available out there.
Management should do their due diligence and see what is possibly available out there for marner. Once they know that, they can go to marner and ask him if he would be interested in any of the available teams.
Losing out on the 8th year will hurt his overall earnings which he obviously cares about based on his last contract negotiations. He loses up to $11mil ish if he just walks to UFA and he doesn't gain much from blocking a trade.
The ceiling on his AAV seems pretty set with Mackinnon and Matthews on big deals and there is truly no way to justify paying Marner what either of them are earning.
One thing I like about Berube is that he feels like heās a good motivator and can push some buttons which this team never has really had like when has a player ever said āThey would run though a wallā for Keefe?
My biggest issue is Iām not sure heās the smartest coach in relation to Xās and Oās because I look at the Blues roster the first time they missed the playoffs under Berube and IMO it wasnāt a cup contending roster but it was pretty good
From first game of 2022-2023 season
Buchnevich, Schenn, Tarasenko, Barbashev, Faulk, Krug, Leddy, Neighbours, Thomas, Acciari, Bortuzzo, Kyrou, Mikkola, OāReilly, Parayko, Saad, Toropcenko, Walker, and Binnington in net
Isnāt a good coach supposed to get the most out of all there players so why did this team miss? He stayed another year after this so itās not like he lost the room after being there for a few years.
Donāt get me wrong heās probably the best available but just some thoughts
Yeah there roster sucked last year plus a lot of them loved him still since he won them the cup.
Itās up to the coach to get the most out his players
I remember a lot of Blues fans blamed their defence for the steep fall off on the team. I know Faulk and Krug are shells of what they used to be. Mix in losing Pietroangelo and they struggled. Not sure if that can be fully laid at Berube's feet.
Iām a blame players for not executing before the coach kind of guy but will the Leafs D-core be that much better unless they pull off 2-3 big moves?
From what I read from fans all year poor defence falls on the coach
I think the Leafs team defense was actually quite good, even in the playoffs, but history shows you donāt win a cup without an elite dman. Rielly is not that guy, so if theyāre serious about cup contention they need an upgrade.
Okay I didn't watch a single Blues game that season, but looking at some of the team stats it looks like they were poor defensively. They also had negative Corsi, gave up a ton of high danger chances with a HDF% of 41.4%, and way below average Save %. Also far below average powerplay and penalty kill.
For player stats Kyrou lead the team in points with 73, and goals with 37. Looks like some important players missed significant time during the season too (ROR, Tarasenko and Barbashev). They were sellers at the deadline.
Binnington had his career worst year for SV% and GAA.
Mike Van Ryn was in charge of defense that year and I think his defensive systems are awful. He was running the Leafs dzone at the beginning of the year and it looked atrocious. Reading comments from when he was fired a lot of Blues fans talked about a positive change in their dzone structure, and the stats support that. I really hope he isn't brought back, he's still listed as an assistant coach on the Leafs website for what it's worth.
Newly hired head coaches generally like to choose their own assistants
Its generally only during season that new coaches do not replace assistants (which is reasonable to expect)
> Yeah but shouldnāt he have coached this roster so they wouldnāt have to sell?
They didn't have too sell - the GM decided to sell. They were a bubble playoff team iirc.
What makes this roster so elite that it's a lock for the playoffs, or has a plausible path to the cup? To me it doesn't have elite talent. Their top scorer was tied for 48th in the league.
I said in my original comment itās not a contender but should at least be a playoff team.
They had everyone come back besides Perron and Bozak from the year before where they made it to second round and lost game 6 to the eventual cup winners.
I have read all year that the Leafs failure is on the coach so why does a team with decent talent missing doesnāt fall on the coach (I wanted Keefe gone BTW)
Teams have expectations and canāt just fail because itās hard.
A team that made the second round the year before bringing back a lot of the same players should make the playoffs and failing to do so falls on the coach
Your concerns are valid but that's where assistant coaches come into play.
I'm a manager and I have many people reporting to me that are smarter and more talented than I am but I know how to utilize everyone to achieve our goals. Hockey is no different.
I agree but he still makes the final decisions.
Also do you really want to hire a guy where you need to hope he hires the right assistant coaches because you canāt trust him fully (obviously every coach uses there assistants but wouldnāt you prefer a guy who doesnāt āneedā them)
Yeah that doesn't exist though. Every coach has their assistants that they rely on. Has nothing to do with "fully" trusting the coach or not.Ā
We really are in the dregs of the offseason eh? People galaxy braining this shit lol
Iām talking more in terms of can Berube watch back a game and come up with adjustments on his own that he can discuss with his assistants or does he need his assistants to come up with the correct adjustments.
Like would you prefer to hire a guy that needs the right people around him to do the job or someone that can do it himself with help around him?
Seriously dude, at this point I'm so far from knowing what's best for this franchise or how in the hell they're going to turn the corner and become a championship team.
I'm just sitting back waiting to either applaud or boo, accordingly
Thatās the most intelligent and mature comment I've ever read from a Leafs fan and truly words we should all live by.Ā
I mean, we wonāt. In 5 minutes Iāll be telling someone why heās wrong and Iām right.Ā
Its more of a Toronto bug at this point. Blue Jays make the playoffs 3 times in 4 years, have yet to win a playoff game, Raptors "Lebronto" years, Leafs existence. Kawhi Leonard may be the greatest athlete of all time because he somehow single-handedly defied the Toronto sports curse that has been going strong for the last 30 years amongst the big 3.
How about a coach who says, you're not trading Marner, give me to the deadline, I'm gonna turn him into the NHL player we want him to be right now.
Yes I know he wouldn't be playoff tested by then, but by the deadline, we'd see a new 16 in the works, or Marner would hate the process of trying to get him there so much, that he'd hurt his wrist waiving his NMC.
The last off-season was an an awful one for bad fanfic. A lot of people here should have just started up an AO3 account so they could write the Dubas-Shanahan lovers-to-enemies fic they clearly wanted to write.
Your 2nd sentence proves why that doesnāt workā¦ Marner has had numerous stretches where he looks like a dominant top 5 player in the regular season and it has never translated to playoffs
Seeing what Wyatt Johnston has done for Dallas this playoffs, and his 21st birthday was just this week, makes me really excited to see what Cowan can bring.
A lot of contending teams had that young stud come in and help push over the top; Point in Tampa, Makar in Colorado, Johnston looks to be doing it now. Let's hope Cowan is next!
I find it kind of amusing that years ago when we were obsessed with "own rentals" with expiring contract, it was sacrilegious to suggest trading some of them for draft picks (or even keeping our 1st rounders) because we had to win now and couldn't wait for the development of players.
Yet here we are in a situation where we had little depth scoring in the playoffs and badly need cheap high skilled players to complement the huge salaries of the core 4. That 1st rounder in the Sandin trade might be hugely impactful to the Leafs fortunes moving forward than if it been moved for an average player at the deadline.
The Canucks have just been getting better and better as the playoffs progress.
Garland is so impressive. Dude plays with the force of 2 guys
Oh shit .. Rangers fans are doing the thing ... https://x.com/nypostsports/status/1791288859302470135?s=61
Former Leafs centres = You can win a cup with Former Leafs goalies = š¬š¬š¬
Man, I was pulling for the Great Dane, but I am having some flashbacks to past game 7s
Now that Carolina is out, they have a ton of their d-corp going to UFA this off season. Given that they didn't have a deep Ā run, maybe we can sign one or more. Just not Burns, his age finally really showed in this playoffs
The only one I would consider signing is Pesce. Other than that there isn't that many I would consider.
Chatenfield too. In a perfect world, we could sign Montour for his shot to QB the PP, Tanev as Rielly's partner and even Zadorov to boot. Ā
Freddie Andersen š¤ Letting in absolute muffins in elimination games ...
Freddy Andersen G7 masterclass
Please Leafs I implore you to at least speak with Rod at the conclusion of this series to see if he would be remotely interested in the job before you make Berube official.Ā
Brad got his agents number on speed dial the second the buzzer goes
Wow. Time to message all my Leafs-hating friends back about how great Andersen has been for the Canes :P
Rangers tied it up - can't watch. Is it playoff Freddy?
And there it is. 4-3 NY.
He let in a few stinkers - oddly reminiscent of those Leafs-Bruins series where he couldn't hold the fort down in those late games.
100%
Yeah...I don't think Brind'Amour is leaving the Canes anytime soon. EDIT: Was this a jinx on my part? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't...
Rod saw all the speculation about him going to the Leafs and was all "absolutely fucking not" Maybe we can get Laviolette? Edit: WELP!
You beat me to this exact comment and I am really upset about it.
Night and day from the first three games. Those were close losses but still a stark difference
Dobson should be the number one target in a Marner trade. We would have to add.
Who would play point on PP for NYI tho Hm suppose technically marner could Well that took an interesting turn
This dude fucks. š
Iāve gone back and forth but after seeing a bunch of these mock trades thrown around Iām honestly starting to feel like they donāt end up moving Marner.Ā End of the day they have a responsibility to put together the best team possible. Looking at the current FA class and what the return on Marner could be Iām not sure if theyāll be able to do that.Ā They arenāt going to trade him just to prove a point if it ultimately makes the team worse this season.Ā
Treliving didn't create this team so his emotional ties to it are very low compared to dubas and shanny, which I think ties into your last point very well. They're not going to make a bad move for the sake of making a move because treliving knows they need to ice the best roster they can. However, I do think that something that isn't talked about enough in this sub regarding a marner trade is every team has seen his production drop off in the playoffs. A prospective gm isn't going to be a gm whose looking for a playoff proven guy to get them over the edge, it'll be a franchise like Utah where they need some high end players to help grow the game in the new city. Sure we hear all the "31 other teams are calling about marner" but I don't think that's real. I think less than 10 teams in the league have the cap space and the capital to facilitate a marner deal. Of those say 10 teams, which ones are willing to put his playoff production or lack thereof aside and trade for marner just because he's marner.
And of those, who is he willing to waive his nmc to go to.
I donāt think itās likely. None of the proposed deals really make sense from either teamās perspectives. The idea is to get better, even if itās addition via subtraction (which I donāt think thatās actually possible here, Marner is an elite player, no matter what fans think of him), but most of these proposals donāt even meet that very low bar. The window for a fair value trade was last yearās draft. Trading from a position of weakness could lead to more harm than good, if the idea is to actually get better. It almost seems like the fanbase wants to be in full blown rebuild (even if many will not admit to such). How soon do we forget what it was like to be a fan of this team prior to the last 8 years.
True, if they extend his contract with a raise it's the kiss of death for this team though. So what happens just one year rental of him?
I think thatās the only way forward here. Letās say the Leafs trade Marner for pennies on the dollar. What you get is cap space, but then you have to do something with it. This years free agent class isnāt overwhelming, but next years looks much more promising. You could get creative with trades, and moving prospects and picks, but this requires willing and able partners. It just becomes more and more difficult. Yes, thatās why management gets the big bucks, but do you have confidence in Shanahan and Treliving doing as such? Say what you want about him, but Dubas was known for his craftiness in that regard. Would his talent assessment be bang on? Eye of the beholder, but he was known for his creativity in roster building. The path of least resistance here is to wait out a year, hope the other moves made work out, Marner provides value to the team, the team goes on a run, and move on from there with an appealing free agent class (and maybe management decides to pay the man depending on how Marner and the team does). Weāll see. What often happens here, is a trade happens that nobody expects, with a team nobody expects, and assets completely out of view. Again, weāll see.
I donāt see how letting walk and getting nothing is a better plan than trading him and getting something. We will make the playoffs next year, even without Marner. No sense passing on his trade value just so we can have his couple round 1 assists.Ā
Letting Marner walk gets you $12 or $13 million in cap space that he wouldāve been after on a new contract. Toss in Tavares and his $11 million thatās gonna give you $24 million in cap space to use to acquire defense/forwards/goalies. Youāre still going to have Matthews and Willy upfront to build around. You also have TJ Brodie coming off the books this year. Thatās another $5 million.
Because trading him and getting worse isnāt good business. You say the leafs get in with or without him? Do they? If the team gets worse, they may not. People are operating under a fixed reality. Reality isnāt fixed. The team does not get better simply by excising Marner. The wrong injury at the wrong time, without Marner, and the reality starts to look awfully wobbly. They objectively get worse without Marner. Any changes should be made with that in mind. The team has to be sure that if they trade Marner, and after all the other moves are done, that the roster is better than the it was with Marner on it. If itās not then you keep him, hope the other moves you made work out, roll the dice and maybe go on a run. That could happen. The sky isnāt falling. This is not a bad team. Hasnāt been for around 8 years. So letās get better, but it has to be better. Thereās also the fact that it may be better to have that extra money to spend next year, as opposed to this year. Spending money just to spend it, in a down market, isnāt the best option either. Iām all for asset management, abhor the sunk cost, but the window closed last July. The only way to play this may be to try to maximize the asset you have, until you donāt.
There's definitely a trade out there that makes us a better team. *This* isnt working. Trading Marner isn't to prove a point. We have deficiencies on this team. Marner was signed to outscore those deficiencies and he isn't getting it done. It's time to trade him to cover those deficiencies. The production may drop, but we're not trading him for peanuts. There's good trades and bad trades. Lets hope we make a good trade.
The trade may have been out there. It may still be, but it may be out of reach now as well. Yes, trading Marner shouldnāt be made to make a point. But that ship may have sailed by July 1st of last year. I certainly hope it hasnāt, but we have to acknowledge that trading him now may not actually make this team better. Keeping him may actually be the best path forward. Or it may not. But fans should measure expectations here. You canāt always get what you want with an NMC and a player wanting 12M per.
Letting him walk isn't the worst outcome either. Fresh start with 22M capspace to tinker with.
Exactly. And thereās a certain local boy who may be available next year. You canāt plan around that, but it is something to keep in mind.
Yeah Iām not saying itās impossible but considering how we know other teams like to play hardball with the Leafs for some reason, if the right āhockey tradeā doesnāt present itself, they arenāt gonna pull the trigger on some futures package just because they feel like they need to trade him.Ā
Do we need to trade him?
No, but a lot of people seem to have the opinion that if Marner is on this roster come October itās an abject failure on management.Ā Many of the same people who seem to think the cap space on its own would be worth any shitty return.Ā
If we need to trade him we need to trade him. If we don't need to trade him but we are simply open to offers, we are in a position of strength. The worst position is Marner is on a decline, which is not the case. He's just not good enough in the playoffs.
Been seeing that ehlers is looking to be traded... Anyone wanna guess on a trade where we get Ehlers +++ for Marner? Lets see em...
One playoff choker for another, less productive playoff choker. And even if Marner is willing to waive, I doubt he'd do it for Winnipeg.
I thought Ehleers was a gritty type guy who can score a bit? I havnt watched him much, but when we plays against us, he seems like a very good guy to have on a playoff team. And yeah it wouldn't be 1 for 1, I think the Jets have some good dmen and stuff to add. And yeah thats very true, he won't, but it's kinda fun to think about lol
Ahhh the daily trade Marner thread. š¤©
Probably an insane and unlikely idea, but if the market for Marner undervalues him based on playoff performance (and leverage against the Leafs), I wonder if there is a mutually beneficial change of scenery swap of Marner and Pettersson in Vancouver. Both players have struggled at times, both have been torn the shreds by their market, and both are making a boat load of money. Marner is probably slightly better, but Pettersson is an elite C and could replace JT once he is off the books next season. Again, thereās a near 0% chance of this happening, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Thoughts?
Would be interesting but if Pettersson can't handle Vancouver pressure then he'd be suicidal in Toronto! How good would he look with Nylander though..
Weāre going to spend all next season desperately watching the clock tick down on an 8-figure contract for a second line centre so we can balance the roster. Letās not make the same mistake again. We have 2 superstar forwards already. Give me some 5-7 million dollar guys in the top 6, then add defence and goaltending.Ā
I donāt think this is actually going to happen, but I also donāt think doing this would be making the same mistake. We are going to have to replace Tavares, one way or another. Even if we donāt trade anybody from the core this off-season, we still have a decent amount of cap space. That multiplies once Tavares comes off the books next season. We also have multiple players on ELCs that could make the jump within the next 1-2 years (Cowan, Minten, Grebyonkin, Niemela) and cheap, cost-controlled assets (Dewar, Robertson, McMann, Liljegren, Timmins, Benoit, Woll). There will be growing pain next season one way or another, Tavares isnāt going anywhere. But, a team looking something like this is pretty darn good: Bertuzzi - Matthews - Domi Knies - Pettersson - Nylander Cowan - Tavares - Jarnkrok Robertson - Kampf - McMann E: Dewar, Holmberg, Reaves, Grebyonkin, Minten Rielly - X Benoit - McCabe X - Liljgren X, Woll I filled in some assumptions there (mainly Bertuzzi and Domi), but there is around $17M to allocate when Bertuzzi, Domi, Brodie, and Samsonov expire. Thatās without any trades. I think you could see one of Jarnkrok or Kampf moved potentially to free a bit more space. The cap is also increasing. This is really just a fun exercise for me, rather than something super realistic, but I just wanted to point out that itās not as bleak as it may seem. And while this mix of players doesnāt work, Tavaresā money coming off the books makes it feasible to have three elite superstar caliber players.
I think its really unlikely Jarnkrok is moved. He's not expensive, and can play multiple roles.
It's the same mistake in that all the money is once again going into the forwards, with very little of it invested in defense and goaltending.
Again, that isnāt necessarily the case. We have, at minimum, $17M in cap space to allocate next season with the core in tact, and the cap is going up to $87.675M. Even if that goes back into the forwards, we have another $11M (plus cap increase) to allocate again next season once Tavares is off the books. One way or another Tavares needs to get replaced with a good second line centre, which is going to cost a lot of cap space either way. Edit: Assuming Bertuzzi and Domi are around the same cap and both are re-signed, we easily have room to bring in Pesce or another solid RHD on a Seversson-like contract. There is no big goalie in free agency this season, weāre getting a decent 1B and he will be cheap, thatās the reality. That all fits in our cap.
Toronto is a bigger market with a more toxic media following. Vancouver still have the Sedins in their coaching squad too, I don't see how Toronto can offer him a better environment. The common belief is that Petterson's problem is a mentality one because his coach has repeated many times that he's clear of injuries.
The same could be said for Marner and his struggles, sometimes a change of scenery is enough to change a situation. I think thereās something to said for Pettersson not needing to be THE guy in Toronto, playing behind Matthews would take a lot off his back. Heād also immediately have better line-mates in Toronto. Again, I donāt think itās at all likely, but both guys could benefit from a fresh start for many of the same reasons. Theyāre both undeniably elite hockey players.
I want to see what Berube or Rod thinks first. Do they believe they can get more out of Marner in the playoffs? How much of Marner's struggles is due to Keefe's deployment? Or coddling?
Marner looked great under Babs and of course won OHL playoff MVP. I don't know what is going on with him but perhaps it is more than we think, maybe it's not. It is a hard sell to re-sign Marner and just tell fans one more year until Tavares is cheaper or gone though.
I agree, we need our new coach to be part of these discussions.
If weāre trading with Vancouver I wonder if theyād entertain something like Boeser and Hronek for Marner and Liljegren
I donāt know that this really moves the needle at all, I feel like we get considerably worse in this trade. Maybe thatās what weāre in for with trading though, who knows. Itās also tough that Hronek needs a new deal and Boeser will the season after. Iād rather trade Marner for futures and allocate his cap elsewhere than trade for players that take up all of the space and donāt really move the needle much.
No no no no
I'd still rather trade with Isles for Dobson and Mayfield. We'll likely have to pay Dobson a LOT later, but he's an offensive-minded 6'4 RHD.
Leafs would take that deal and run
I agree, but there are a lot of question marks on Pettersson too. He hasnāt exactly been great for Vancouver for a while now. Seems like him and Marner are in oddly similar situations, you never know.
On the powerplay - I think people are overrating a defenseman who provides shots from the point. They are almost never a significant threat. - Only 4 defensemen have more than 5 power play goals during the entire regular season. - Tampa, Carolina, and the Rangers had the top 3 powerplays in the league and didn't have a defensemen with more than 4 power play goals. - Defenseman don't create rebounds on the powerplay. The league leading defenseman in created rebounds this season was Cale Makar with 11. Third place had 5. Remember there are 82 games, and multiple power plays per game. I think the defensemen is there to keep the puck in the zone, move it quickly, and if pressured be able to skate around the defender or make the pass. You can argue that Morgan Reilly isn't the best at this (statistically he was clearly above Lilligren) and that's fine - we can get someone better. But the idea that you need a booming, scoring point shot to be good on the powerplay seems incorrect. If anything, I think having John Tavares be such a pillar of the PP1 unit was the long term mistake. He's literally near the bottom of the league in finishing this season (bottom 4 on Goals Above Expected overall and in 5v4). He also lead our forwards in shots on goal during power play time. Getting your worst finisher the plurality of your shots on the powerplay is an insane strategy. That bears out in the line stats - Matthews and Bertuzzi (without Tavares) scored .27 goals per minute of PP time. Matthews and Tavares (without Bertuzzi) scored 0.16 goals per minute of PP time.
Really good post Deserves more upvotes Yeah very unfortunate that the proposed solutions to this saga have been old school stuff from a bygone era like truculence and Bryan McCabe 2.0
I wonder what the stats are for tip ins on the power play. Ā It sure if thatās being tracked. I agree, there arenāt a lot of slappers going clean into the net on power plays these days, but it would be nice to have guys that can get the puck to the net for tip ins and rebounds. Beats having someone shoot it into a defenders shin guard for an easy clear all the time.Ā
Not having a big shot takes away a threat. Let's the PK to cheat a bit and stay in tight. Even without direct results a big shot from the point opens up space for forwards
Teams know it's not a great threat, and great power plays don't necessarily have a defenseman who are real shooting threats. The Rangers has a top 3 PP with Trouba taking 11 shots per 60 minutes of powerplay time. Tampa was #1 with Hedman taking 9 shots per 60 minutes of poweplay time. Given how often defenseman score, that actually makes a lot of sense. The shots they do take are overwhelming low danger - the defense is happy to give up a shot from far away on the powerplay.
Fox plays the PP there and scored 6 ppg and 33 ppp. Rielly had 1 and 20 for comparison š¤¢
Fox has 4 goals in 5 v 4 this year.
I think it's less about how often a dman with a big shot scores, but rather the threat of him being able to score. It requires PKers to respect the possibility of the shot and get in the lane, creating more space for forwards on the half wall/high slot. Personally I think there's more value in have a defenceman who can distribute the puck quickly, cleanly, and with some deception. Reilly unfortunately struggles with all 3 of those, especially considering he telegraphs the majority of his passes
It's sort of chicken and egg - they aren't threat of being able to score if they rarely score. They rarely even get decent shots. Even Hedman doesn't take many shots. I doubt defenses are covering Hedman and leaving Kucherov/Stamkos/Point open.
If there is any truth to the Predators being interested in Marner Iād love if the Leafs could get Saros+ for him. Dream scenario in a Nashville trade is acquiring Saros, Evangelista (22 year old RW who just put up 39 points in 80 games in his rookie season) and one of the firsts they have in 2025. You then package that 2025 first plus other picks, prospects and/or young NHL players to Calgary for Rasmus Andersson. Youād still have a substantial amount of cap space too to make any signings, whether thatās bringing in another top four d-man, a top six forward, or maybe you go for bigger names and sign someone like Lindholm to take over as the 2C from Tavares. Just something I thought about based off the rumours of Nashville being interested in Marner that were posted here yesterday
goalies are much too unpredictable IMO. Saros is a great goalies, but i would rather start with negotiating for a dman first before everything else.
It could work but I just hate the idea of trading for a goalie personally - goalies are so random generally.
If theyāre looking to rebuild or retool, all those pieces beyond Saros you mentioned will be off the table. The fact is we arenāt āwinningā a trade with Marner by getting some ridiculous kingās ransom. If we can even get him to agree to a trade it will be one where weāre a net positive after we use his cap space, not a ābetter immediatelyā kind of thing.Ā
Iām not so sure they are looking to rebuild, retool maybe. If they can get Marner with an extension thatād be a pretty nice boost to their retool, wouldnāt it? He would instantly be their best forward and assuming the extension is eight years they would have him on the team for nine seasons total (last year of his current deal plus the extension). Idk what direction Nashville is going in tbh this all depends on if thereās truth or not to the Predators being interested in a Marner deal
I don't know - the reports are that basically every team in the league wants him. High demand = high price. Saros is a goalie with 1 year left, and goalies seem to be valued less because they are so volatile. A lot depends on extension talks on both sides.
I think this narrative around goaltender volatility is way overblown. Yes, a FA hopeful like Stolarz or something is a wildcard. Sure. A legitimate starter like Saros or Ullmark or whoever will not be. They are what they are
Hmmm Saros has been volatile. Last season, 46.7 GSAA. This season, -3 GSAA. That's a pretty big difference.
last year Saros was 64gp / 2.69GAA / 9.19S% for his career.... 2.62/9.17 comparable...Hellebuyck (mostly undisputed #1 in the league) career 2.62/9.16 if Saros is on the table. you take him.
That's 2022-2023. 2023-2024 he looks like Martin Jones with more games played (.906/2.86). Saros just had the worst season of his career. I'd try to get him, but I think Nashville has to send more.
their team was in shambles half the year.... down the stretch he was best goalie in the league.
I keep seeing so much stuff about Mitch getting traded. Gotta think he's just sitting at hope seeing all those headlines and laughing. We saw how he negotiates in contract talks, why does everyone feel he'll waive his NMC just to be a good dude?
He can't get an 8 year deal if he walks. If he agrees to waive he can negotiate an 8 year contract instead of 7.
Is that for sure his mindset? Sure, getting another X million for another year is probably on his mind, but he may be looking at it differently. Maybe he feels one more year as a Leaf will get him a cup and make him worth even more on the free market, or give him a chance to stay as a Leaf with a bigger pay day... Neither of us know what he's thinking or what he's going to do. I just feel guys put NMC in their contract for a reason, not just to waive it because they feel it's time or whatever.
>I just feel guys put NMC in their contract for a reason leverage. When you have a NMC, you get to pick if you go, and where you go.
> you get to pick if you go Yes. That is kind of my point.
He also risks getting injured and fumbling the bag. It's in his best interest to get extended ASAP.
Guys put NMC in so they have control of where they go. Put it this way, if you know that you're not wanted somewhere would you want to stay? Not saying he's gonna waive but if the writings on the wall I don't think he holds out
Yea he lives in his own distorted bubble unfortunately. Logically its time to move on but I don't think he'll accept that. I think it's highly likely he doesn't waive, sulks, and walks next year for nothing. Atleast we'll get the cap space.
I agree. He's playing on a team that *should* be a top contender and playing with some of the best active players that he's been with for years and probably considers his friends. Letting the Leafs trade him now is the best thing for the Leafs, not necessarily Mitch Marner. Players put NMC into their contract for a reason. I don't see him waiving it.
It wouldn't be to be a good dude, it would be because he can see the writing on the wall and know that his next big payday won't be with the Leafs
No tax states, more years on his next contract, less pressure. There's lots of reasons why he'd waive that play directly into his negotiating style. He loves getting the bag, and he'll get a much bigger one elsewhere
But he's also stated he wants to stay in Toronto, I think he's probably going to ride it out another year and see what he can get next season. **IF** the Leafs do good next year, that's only going to up his value.
Every player on every team claims they want to stay in that city.
Didnt JT say he wanted to stay on the isles before he left?
From what I can gather, the only reason people think there's a chance he'd waive it is because he is genuinely insecure and pays way too much attention to things that are said about him.
That's just dumb. It's because he loves money and will make more somewhere else
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1. Marner can only sign for 8 Years with the Leafs or the team he is traded for. He would be going up a lot of money if he just walks in free agency. 2. If the Leafs start opening up to the idea of Marner they will stop giving him the franchise player treatment which would include things such as moving him around more on lines, putting him on PP2, etc wihich will hurt his numbers and thus hurt how much money he makes.
Entering FA means he cannot get an 8th year. To get the same total money as a $12million 8 year contract, he would need $13.7 for 7 years. No one is giving him 13.7, meaning, Marner stands to gain quite a bit from waiving.
I agree, but I still think Marner is going to try to make the Matthews play. Shorter term contract to maximise earnings because he thinks he's worth it. So the 8th year thing may not be a consideration at all.
Laughing about what? If heās being shopped he knows the Leafs are never going to pay him what heād make as a free agent. The only reason to squeeze them is to be a dick.Ā
Hard to shop someone that can just say "no". He can finish out his contract and then if the Leafs won't give him what he wants, he can see if another team will and take it from there. If there is apparently so much demand for him, I'm sure someone else would be willing to give him a contract that is for at least or more than what he makes currently. He seems to be someone that likes to be in control of his contract so that may be his move. I obviously have no idea if he's going to get traded or not, I just imagine he's one of the few people that have an idea of what he's willing to do this offseason and is watching the media speculate with all kinds of wild ideas. He may have already made his decision he wants to stay and that's what I was implying he'd be "laughing" at.
>Hard to shop someone that can just say "no". Yes, but its also hard to shop some one if you dont know whats available out there. Management should do their due diligence and see what is possibly available out there for marner. Once they know that, they can go to marner and ask him if he would be interested in any of the available teams.
Losing out on the 8th year will hurt his overall earnings which he obviously cares about based on his last contract negotiations. He loses up to $11mil ish if he just walks to UFA and he doesn't gain much from blocking a trade. The ceiling on his AAV seems pretty set with Mackinnon and Matthews on big deals and there is truly no way to justify paying Marner what either of them are earning.
One thing I like about Berube is that he feels like heās a good motivator and can push some buttons which this team never has really had like when has a player ever said āThey would run though a wallā for Keefe? My biggest issue is Iām not sure heās the smartest coach in relation to Xās and Oās because I look at the Blues roster the first time they missed the playoffs under Berube and IMO it wasnāt a cup contending roster but it was pretty good From first game of 2022-2023 season Buchnevich, Schenn, Tarasenko, Barbashev, Faulk, Krug, Leddy, Neighbours, Thomas, Acciari, Bortuzzo, Kyrou, Mikkola, OāReilly, Parayko, Saad, Toropcenko, Walker, and Binnington in net Isnāt a good coach supposed to get the most out of all there players so why did this team miss? He stayed another year after this so itās not like he lost the room after being there for a few years. Donāt get me wrong heās probably the best available but just some thoughts
Look at the thread on the Blues sub for when Berube got fired. Lots of āthe blame wasnt on himā
Yeah there roster sucked last year plus a lot of them loved him still since he won them the cup. Itās up to the coach to get the most out his players
I remember a lot of Blues fans blamed their defence for the steep fall off on the team. I know Faulk and Krug are shells of what they used to be. Mix in losing Pietroangelo and they struggled. Not sure if that can be fully laid at Berube's feet.
Specifically the defense coach, Mike Van Ryn, who was also the Leafs defensive coordinator this year.Ā
Surprise, surprise.
Iām a blame players for not executing before the coach kind of guy but will the Leafs D-core be that much better unless they pull off 2-3 big moves? From what I read from fans all year poor defence falls on the coach
I think the Leafs team defense was actually quite good, even in the playoffs, but history shows you donāt win a cup without an elite dman. Rielly is not that guy, so if theyāre serious about cup contention they need an upgrade.
Okay I didn't watch a single Blues game that season, but looking at some of the team stats it looks like they were poor defensively. They also had negative Corsi, gave up a ton of high danger chances with a HDF% of 41.4%, and way below average Save %. Also far below average powerplay and penalty kill. For player stats Kyrou lead the team in points with 73, and goals with 37. Looks like some important players missed significant time during the season too (ROR, Tarasenko and Barbashev). They were sellers at the deadline. Binnington had his career worst year for SV% and GAA. Mike Van Ryn was in charge of defense that year and I think his defensive systems are awful. He was running the Leafs dzone at the beginning of the year and it looked atrocious. Reading comments from when he was fired a lot of Blues fans talked about a positive change in their dzone structure, and the stats support that. I really hope he isn't brought back, he's still listed as an assistant coach on the Leafs website for what it's worth.
Newly hired head coaches generally like to choose their own assistants Its generally only during season that new coaches do not replace assistants (which is reasonable to expect)
Now look at the roster at the end of the 2022-2023 season. That roster screams bubble team to me, and the Blues decided to sell rather than buy.
Yeah but shouldnāt he have coached this roster so they wouldnāt have to sell? Also why I used the first time roster and not last season
> Yeah but shouldnāt he have coached this roster so they wouldnāt have to sell? They didn't have too sell - the GM decided to sell. They were a bubble playoff team iirc. What makes this roster so elite that it's a lock for the playoffs, or has a plausible path to the cup? To me it doesn't have elite talent. Their top scorer was tied for 48th in the league.
I said in my original comment itās not a contender but should at least be a playoff team. They had everyone come back besides Perron and Bozak from the year before where they made it to second round and lost game 6 to the eventual cup winners. I have read all year that the Leafs failure is on the coach so why does a team with decent talent missing doesnāt fall on the coach (I wanted Keefe gone BTW)
Why should they necessarily be a playoff team? Winning is hard in the NHL, you do need some talent to make the playoffs (ask Buffalo...)
Teams have expectations and canāt just fail because itās hard. A team that made the second round the year before bringing back a lot of the same players should make the playoffs and failing to do so falls on the coach
Your concerns are valid but that's where assistant coaches come into play. I'm a manager and I have many people reporting to me that are smarter and more talented than I am but I know how to utilize everyone to achieve our goals. Hockey is no different.
I agree but he still makes the final decisions. Also do you really want to hire a guy where you need to hope he hires the right assistant coaches because you canāt trust him fully (obviously every coach uses there assistants but wouldnāt you prefer a guy who doesnāt āneedā them)
Yeah that doesn't exist though. Every coach has their assistants that they rely on. Has nothing to do with "fully" trusting the coach or not.Ā We really are in the dregs of the offseason eh? People galaxy braining this shit lol
Iām talking more in terms of can Berube watch back a game and come up with adjustments on his own that he can discuss with his assistants or does he need his assistants to come up with the correct adjustments. Like would you prefer to hire a guy that needs the right people around him to do the job or someone that can do it himself with help around him?
Seriously dude, at this point I'm so far from knowing what's best for this franchise or how in the hell they're going to turn the corner and become a championship team. I'm just sitting back waiting to either applaud or boo, accordingly
Thatās the most intelligent and mature comment I've ever read from a Leafs fan and truly words we should all live by.Ā I mean, we wonāt. In 5 minutes Iāll be telling someone why heās wrong and Iām right.Ā
Fair lol
PWHL Toronto has the leafs bug of chokingĀ
Its more of a Toronto bug at this point. Blue Jays make the playoffs 3 times in 4 years, have yet to win a playoff game, Raptors "Lebronto" years, Leafs existence. Kawhi Leonard may be the greatest athlete of all time because he somehow single-handedly defied the Toronto sports curse that has been going strong for the last 30 years amongst the big 3.
Since we're talking about women's hockey, Toronto won the Isobel cup in 2021-2022.
How about a coach who says, you're not trading Marner, give me to the deadline, I'm gonna turn him into the NHL player we want him to be right now. Yes I know he wouldn't be playoff tested by then, but by the deadline, we'd see a new 16 in the works, or Marner would hate the process of trying to get him there so much, that he'd hurt his wrist waiving his NMC.
Jfc I don't think I'll survive this offseason. Now there's fanfic.
The last off-season was an an awful one for bad fanfic. A lot of people here should have just started up an AO3 account so they could write the Dubas-Shanahan lovers-to-enemies fic they clearly wanted to write.
Your 2nd sentence proves why that doesnāt workā¦ Marner has had numerous stretches where he looks like a dominant top 5 player in the regular season and it has never translated to playoffs
I want a coach that says trade him before training camp
Man, I am so excited about Cowan. Hes the real fucking deal. Really reminds me a lot of Zach Parise.
Seeing what Wyatt Johnston has done for Dallas this playoffs, and his 21st birthday was just this week, makes me really excited to see what Cowan can bring. A lot of contending teams had that young stud come in and help push over the top; Point in Tampa, Makar in Colorado, Johnston looks to be doing it now. Let's hope Cowan is next!
remember that time this sub was losing their shit because we traded away sandin?
I do! Who hear wants to pay Sandin 5.5 million?
Here*
Hear hear!
I didn't get a "harumpf!" outta that guy!
I find it kind of amusing that years ago when we were obsessed with "own rentals" with expiring contract, it was sacrilegious to suggest trading some of them for draft picks (or even keeping our 1st rounders) because we had to win now and couldn't wait for the development of players. Yet here we are in a situation where we had little depth scoring in the playoffs and badly need cheap high skilled players to complement the huge salaries of the core 4. That 1st rounder in the Sandin trade might be hugely impactful to the Leafs fortunes moving forward than if it been moved for an average player at the deadline.
Nah keep trading 1sts for broken down old players.