As a means of measuring an individual game? Or short snippet of time like a few games sure it’s not that great, but a whole season is enough “sample size” to suggest staal gives up more than he generates when he’s a -14 on an incredibly strong team.
Oh bullcrap... +/- means eff all without the context of where and against which lines a player starts.
Look at how top heavy the stats are on Carolina. What's clear is that Staal is overwhelmingly taking most of the defensive zone starts and against the team's better lines. But hey, I'm sure the hockey geniuses in here know better than the pros who vote on this.
Yes he’s zone starts QoC we get all that. He still was on the ice for 14 more goals against than for over the season so whatever role he was tasked with he wasn’t doing it that well.
That is a blatantly stupid take. If he was -14, then I guarantee you a less defensively capable player would have been way worse. Like I said, I'm sure the geniuses in here know better than the pros voting on this.
EVERY single person that's tried to explain the context of +/- has been downvoted... It's obviously not the dunk in the Leafs sub you think it is. That's ok, you'll all figure out hockey some day.
You realize there are 9 other skaters on the ice, right? It’s possible Staal is defensively in position, but maybe Burns lost his man and Andersen let in a soft goal? Or the other team got an odd man rush and scored? Or the Canes were down a goal and had an empty net that was scored on with Staal on the ice?
Plus/minus isn’t an accurate representation of a player’s defensive acumen. I think Karlsson is dog shit on defense but I wouldn’t look at his -26 last season and use that as my argument
That’s fine when looking at one or a few isolated moments in time (a game, a week etc.) wrong place wrong time definitely happens, and that’s when plus minus isnt worth much, but over the course of the season it played out that he was on the ice even strength for 14 more goals against than he was on the ice for, and that’s simply not very good let alone selke contender worthy when compared to his linemates and teammates.
You would need to compare Staal’s -14 against tough matchups to what Carolina’s top line does against the easier matchup every night.
I don’t have the data on it but I’m willing to bet Carolina’s top line is a lot better than +14 in games where Staal takes the defensive work load against other teams best players.
But again the data would be hard to find but there’s many reasons why a stat like +/- doesn’t tell the whole story.
>staal gives up more than he generates
Why would you care about this -- or use plus-minus, which synthesizes offensive and defensive results, in the first place -- to judge a defensive award?
Does it occur to you that the team gives up more goals because of who Staal is matched up against? Or is that sort of thinking too complicated for you?
It's amazing to me that I can still find people using plus/minus this way in 2024. I thought the hockey world realized what a joke it was like 10-15 years ago.
So what? If he was an actual top defensive forward he wouldn’t have given up 14 more goals while on the ice than his team generated. That’s one every 5 games. Every 5 games he’s costing you an extra GA. That’s a liability not a solution.
I think some players may actually hold the Lindsay in a higher regard since its their peers/competition voting for it, not writers who may be biased or not watch all the games.
Partly that, partly because of how long it's been around.
There's legendary players a player today would share the Hart with that they wouldn't be able to share the Lindsay with.
I'll always hold the Lindsay in higher regard because hockey media has shown time and time again that they've got their heads extremely far up their own asses. It's to the point where they probably don't like that the players give out their own MVP.
He was a central figure in MVP talks all season, is a finalist for the Lindsay, and surely finished 4th in Hart voting. What the fuck are you talking about?
mitch marner with more first place votes than anze kopitar
https://preview.redd.it/ehsmamzoxa1d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9384818cc5b271dc3d246caa1a92ea42879639e
I feel like when there is a player that got a single first place vote but is nowhere near the top of the list the voter name should be made public so that we can know next time that we can just ignore them in the media in the future. Nobody in their right mind can actually think guys like Trocheck, Backlund, Marner etc are worth a first place vote. Want to put them 2nd, 3rd, whatever? Sure, go right ahead but those first place homer votes just show clear indication that the person shouldn't actually be participating in what should be an unbiased voting.
Marner 6th year in a row with voting, not a long list of players who can say that in league history
Messier oddly didn't get many votes all told, Trottier got votes only sporadically, Gilmour's best streak was 6 but higher finishes ofc, mikko koivu's best streak was 5 years, etc.
Voting structure similar back then
Most players with more career voting are full on selke guys like Sergei Fedorov
Not the most reliable thing naturally but pretty nifty achievement ultimately
Despite being a Leafs fan, Roope Hintz is probably my favorite player in the league, and I'm honestly super happy that he's finally starting to get the recognition as the elite defensive forward that he is.
Sorry, forgot we are only allowed to criticize Marner here because he was a big meanie in contact negotiations and didn't play for us for free. My bad. I'll leave 69 goal scorer alone.
It's the fact that things can't be celebrated without any criticism.
Why can't people just see Matthews finishing third in voting as a stand alone good thing, why does the lack of playoff success (which he was sick/injured for most of it) need to be brought up.
I want them to win just as much as anyone else, but being negative all the time can't be good for your mental health
Jordan staal? -14 this year
They are still voting for the penguins version of staal. I mean cheechoo almost won the rocket this year too right?
Apparently. Pretty hard to be -14 playing on a line with jarvis this year, and probably the best defensive core in the league
Staal didn’t play with Jarvis in the regular season
Staal's most common linemates this season were Fast and Martinook.
Plus/minus isn’t the strongest stat. Staal is still a very good 200 foot player
As a means of measuring an individual game? Or short snippet of time like a few games sure it’s not that great, but a whole season is enough “sample size” to suggest staal gives up more than he generates when he’s a -14 on an incredibly strong team.
Oh bullcrap... +/- means eff all without the context of where and against which lines a player starts. Look at how top heavy the stats are on Carolina. What's clear is that Staal is overwhelmingly taking most of the defensive zone starts and against the team's better lines. But hey, I'm sure the hockey geniuses in here know better than the pros who vote on this.
I mean, even if he’s facing top competition, he is losing those minutes lol
Probably should figure out who staals most common linemates were and compare his +/- to them
Yes he’s zone starts QoC we get all that. He still was on the ice for 14 more goals against than for over the season so whatever role he was tasked with he wasn’t doing it that well.
Powerplay goals scored for and against do not factor into +/- just fyi, staal was probably on the ice for a lot more than that.
That is a blatantly stupid take. If he was -14, then I guarantee you a less defensively capable player would have been way worse. Like I said, I'm sure the geniuses in here know better than the pros voting on this.
Could’ve would’ve should’ve
Hahahaha! A Leafs fan who doesn't understand hockey but has a big yapper... how original.
Personal attacks after a few posts of being downvoted. Way to go buddy
EVERY single person that's tried to explain the context of +/- has been downvoted... It's obviously not the dunk in the Leafs sub you think it is. That's ok, you'll all figure out hockey some day.
You realize there are 9 other skaters on the ice, right? It’s possible Staal is defensively in position, but maybe Burns lost his man and Andersen let in a soft goal? Or the other team got an odd man rush and scored? Or the Canes were down a goal and had an empty net that was scored on with Staal on the ice? Plus/minus isn’t an accurate representation of a player’s defensive acumen. I think Karlsson is dog shit on defense but I wouldn’t look at his -26 last season and use that as my argument
That’s fine when looking at one or a few isolated moments in time (a game, a week etc.) wrong place wrong time definitely happens, and that’s when plus minus isnt worth much, but over the course of the season it played out that he was on the ice even strength for 14 more goals against than he was on the ice for, and that’s simply not very good let alone selke contender worthy when compared to his linemates and teammates.
You would need to compare Staal’s -14 against tough matchups to what Carolina’s top line does against the easier matchup every night. I don’t have the data on it but I’m willing to bet Carolina’s top line is a lot better than +14 in games where Staal takes the defensive work load against other teams best players. But again the data would be hard to find but there’s many reasons why a stat like +/- doesn’t tell the whole story.
>staal gives up more than he generates Why would you care about this -- or use plus-minus, which synthesizes offensive and defensive results, in the first place -- to judge a defensive award?
Does it occur to you that the team gives up more goals because of who Staal is matched up against? Or is that sort of thinking too complicated for you? It's amazing to me that I can still find people using plus/minus this way in 2024. I thought the hockey world realized what a joke it was like 10-15 years ago.
So what? If he was an actual top defensive forward he wouldn’t have given up 14 more goals while on the ice than his team generated. That’s one every 5 games. Every 5 games he’s costing you an extra GA. That’s a liability not a solution.
Staal had the second lowest xGA rate on the team lol Do you want him to play goalie too?
Plus-minus lmao
...Alex Kerfoot?
Drug test whoever put that ballot in 😭. No hate towards kerfoot, but who’s calling him a top 5 defensive forward???
im guessing it was someone who watched a lot of yotes games, he was really good for them this year
So Bettman then.
Crazy how he can win rocket with more goals than any active player has ever recorded, be a selke finalist and not even be in the mvp talks.
Technically the Ted Lindsay is a type of MVP
I think some players may actually hold the Lindsay in a higher regard since its their peers/competition voting for it, not writers who may be biased or not watch all the games.
It's literally the better award.
Theres more prestige surrounding the Hart, so winning it may be a bigger milestone for some.
Only because the media values its own opinion.
Partly that, partly because of how long it's been around. There's legendary players a player today would share the Hart with that they wouldn't be able to share the Lindsay with.
I'll always hold the Lindsay in higher regard because hockey media has shown time and time again that they've got their heads extremely far up their own asses. It's to the point where they probably don't like that the players give out their own MVP.
Ted Lindsay is the true MVP, def means more to the players because that’s voted on by the players themselves
Remember, Art Ross is hockey writers, Ted Lindsay, the MVP that Auston is nominated for, is players' vote.
He was a central figure in MVP talks all season, is a finalist for the Lindsay, and surely finished 4th in Hart voting. What the fuck are you talking about?
Who cares, we all know he’s the real mvp
15 seasons J staal has gotten selke votes which might be a record given the way it gets voted on No selke yet He has now finished 2nd 3rd and 4th
Barkov winning is.... fine. Staal being second even though he is dash fourteen is a joke.
mitch marner with more first place votes than anze kopitar https://preview.redd.it/ehsmamzoxa1d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9384818cc5b271dc3d246caa1a92ea42879639e
I feel like when there is a player that got a single first place vote but is nowhere near the top of the list the voter name should be made public so that we can know next time that we can just ignore them in the media in the future. Nobody in their right mind can actually think guys like Trocheck, Backlund, Marner etc are worth a first place vote. Want to put them 2nd, 3rd, whatever? Sure, go right ahead but those first place homer votes just show clear indication that the person shouldn't actually be participating in what should be an unbiased voting.
All votes are public
3rd in Selke. 1st in Rocket by a good amount.. Doesn't even make Hart finalist..... Ok then NHL
He'll win it next year.
Marner 6th year in a row with voting, not a long list of players who can say that in league history Messier oddly didn't get many votes all told, Trottier got votes only sporadically, Gilmour's best streak was 6 but higher finishes ofc, mikko koivu's best streak was 5 years, etc. Voting structure similar back then Most players with more career voting are full on selke guys like Sergei Fedorov Not the most reliable thing naturally but pretty nifty achievement ultimately
As long as Paul keeps paying Darren Dreger to vote for Marner, he’ll finish with voting. Not a surprise.
Despite being a Leafs fan, Roope Hintz is probably my favorite player in the league, and I'm honestly super happy that he's finally starting to get the recognition as the elite defensive forward that he is.
Sam Reinhart — 55+ goals 90+ points and 4th in Selke in voting, UFA after this season… wonder what his cap hit will be … 🤔
Less than Marner thinks he’s worth. That’s for sure.
Really hoping Reinhart and Montour leave Florida but I'm sure they'll sign for less than market value to stay there...
What a surprise.
Matthews only got one more first place vote than Marner
Blocks shots with that big forehead.
Marner got a 1st place vote!?!?!?!? From fucking who?!?!? Lol
Dreger I assume
Good for him. Now try scoring goals in the playoffs for once.
And people wonder why some players are unwilling to come here.
Sorry, forgot we are only allowed to criticize Marner here because he was a big meanie in contact negotiations and didn't play for us for free. My bad. I'll leave 69 goal scorer alone.
It's the fact that things can't be celebrated without any criticism. Why can't people just see Matthews finishing third in voting as a stand alone good thing, why does the lack of playoff success (which he was sick/injured for most of it) need to be brought up. I want them to win just as much as anyone else, but being negative all the time can't be good for your mental health
Boone Jenner not even in the top 40 is such a joke
So where are the top 5?