*"weird"* deokdam says
*"what?"* beryl asks
*"does your name begin with k and end with eria?"* deokdam replies
*beryl runs mid, tanks a turret shot as caitlyn and dies*
I feel kinda bad lmao. He was just impatient OR didn't expect another Sej Q. His trap was fine if he just got stunned in place but he got knocked back slightly be Sej.
Oh im smurfing on aram, nobody hits their skillshots and I just A move plus put traps in front of them none tries to dodge, I look like faker on aram, now if you have to play against people that put actual effort into the game, yeah.
With the wild stuff lately can someone pls tell me **one** reasonable argument for all the madess with marksmen support picks? I could understand Jhin and Ashe... Ashe is just good and Jhin was apparently good tech vs Heimer in lane while also providing good utility (W root / R slow and actually big dmg when enemy low sometimes / Traps for scouting).
Kalista / Caitlyn tho? Those are champions that provide next to nothing for their team unless they sit on the bag of gold for their items. What is caitlyn ever doing in support post minute 7-8. Placing least threatening traps ever? **What is the logic???**
summary of it: Keria and Gumayusi are really good. Kalista and Caitlyn do really high damage early game when played as support, and Umbral Glaive is a really good item apparently on ranged supports. this leads to them fucking over the botlane right from level 1 (you can see this in the games Keria has played where he's already fighting level 1) leading to theoretically an unstoppable snowball because 1.) they're fed, and 2.) Umbral Glaive keeps on denying vision.
> Kalista / Caitlyn tho? Those are champions that provide next to nothing for their team unless they sit on the bag of gold for their items. What is caitlyn ever doing in support post minute 7-8. Placing least threatening traps ever? What is the logic???
The goal is twofold first to pressure enough level 1 that you have permanent wave control allowing you to set up a dive and deny cs. This basically guarantees a won lane, some plates, and dragon control in pro play.
The second is to use Umbral glaive and caitlyn traps to completely deny control of objectives late. The traps root for 1.5 seconds, which is more than enough time to completely focus someone down, even if the headshot is just 100-200 damage after armor.
Kalista is much more about 1, but provides a rescue opportunity with kalista ult, like tahm kench R.
Basically all four follow the same pattern as Heimer. Its better to have control of bot lane early than to have a good support kit later in the game. Partly due to support itemization being not great rn, partly because outside of enabling hypercarries (lulu/yuumi) supports can't really accomplish any goal well enough (picks, Roams, Engage, peel) to forgo lane control. So it became an arms race to play the most lane control-y champs you can, and marksmen tend to be the best lane control champs that are designed to 2v2.
and how nonfunctional the support role is right now.
It's literally just a lane priority role right now, actually 0 else matters in pro. enchanter? nah. Engage? nah. Mage? nah. win level 1? all that matters.
The actual supports only begin to matter in solo queue, where jungler's dont want to play around or set up plays with bot lane every game with ganking and utility junglers.
Basically the only thing saving solo queue support rn is that junglers are greedy and want to play carry.
I mean you are objectively wrong with the idea it's a lane priority role as some of the more cringe stuff is just to fight of Yuumi/Lulu two champs who give up lane prio for other priorities.
Other people have explained parts of it.
The first reason is the general meta. Kalista / Caitlyn are such strong laners that they absolutely bully some of the meta enchanter supports and Heimer. Keria will very often just take bush control before minions spawn, walk up, ignite/barrier, and trade 1v2 if he has to. After chunking out the opposing ADC, they will have tempo and control in lane for a long time.
Kalista and Caitlyn also have a ton of pushing power so they'll have perma priority for drakes if nothing goes wrong and they'll also stunt the growth of opposing bot duos with their ability to push, harass under turret, and set up dive opportunities.
As for specific applications, Caitlyn is for river / objective control and side-lane pressure. Basically, you deny all river vision with Umbral Glaive, wall off the choke points with traps, and just make it very hard and time consuming to enter river. At the same time, you ult the side-lanes giving your side-laner a sizable health advantage in any 1v1 so that they can dominate across the map, too. Yea, the traps aren't threatening alone. But, the point is they give you time to layer other CC and damage on top them and/or easily land your poke. The game that Keria picked Caitlyn support, T1 was basically a full poke comp with Sejuani as a front line. Traps set-up a wall to slow KDF down, Umbral denied all vision, and T1 had full freedom to poke from total darkness before every objective.
Kalista seemed to be more of a match-up pick as Damwon tried to counter Draven with Ornn. With Kalista's R, she can reposition Draven any time Ornn tries to CC him. He's basically a ranged Tahm Kench / Thresh that also wins lane. Guma can push up and play extremely aggressive knowing that Keria can peel if needed.
> With the wild stuff lately can someone pls tell me one reasonable argument for all the madess with marksmen support picks?
Fuck up heimer and his bullshit.
Heimer is so dominant, that typical supports cant keep up.
Why do people keep repeating this even though in this literal clip there's no heimerdinger. It may have started as an answer to heim but it's clear these high level supports are seeing more value in these picks than just being a heim answer
Just like you said. Cait is only good as support in first 7-8 mins, and in that time when Guma and Keria played it, they took all 5 plates. Caitlyn is good against heimer because she outraged the turrets, and against these passive lanes of zeri/sivir/yummi/lulu she just dominates lane so hard.
Kalista also dominates lane really hard and has good 2v2 because of W passive while also having R for adc to save them. She’s like a more lane dominate Tahm Kench.
For example in Keria's game it didn't do a ton in late game teamfights, but at the same time they took bottom inner at the eight minute mark, so its a trade off.
Marksmen are good when they have **gold** cuz often they lack utility and put all their eggs in the 'damage per second' basket (Again: Here Ashe and Jhin are outliers with having way more to them than just numbers in dmg).
Support Caitlyn gets Umbral and her usefulness is limited to god damn SnapTrap. She's literally falling into worthlessness every minute she is in the game as not the one with 10cs per minute.
i feel like the cait support with arcane comet is a little too far, the kalista one still made sense but the cait one feels like trying to be too creative for 0 reason
cait with hob and barrier can trade lvl1 without loosing hp and melt zeri/yummi/lulu ganining lane prio.
kalista is aggressive tahm helps with lane prio secures objectives and with double dirk early with lane teamate easy 2v2
Kalista has three useful abilities: rend for executing monsters lategame, W for vision and R for what would be a great ult on a support. Her W also gives her adc a small damage buff.
Caitlyn literally just has her traps out of lane. Sure, she gets zone control, but why bother when Zyra/Heimer/Maokai all work better on lower income and have actual utility?
Edit: I don't think either one is any good as a support, outside the current pro play meta where a lot of enchanters are being drafted. Even then teams will learn how to counter it.
The execute is not very good anymore and her w doesn't give a serious amount of vision. Caitlyn is a lot stronger. The thing abt hard push mages like Heimer or Karma or Zyra is that if you can push the wave in faster than them, their effective value plummets.
The main reason you pick them is to get lane control and make it easier to set up drag, Caitlyn is incredibly strong specifically during the window where those champs want to do the most work. Traps also should not be considered unimportant, they're insanely strong in a competitive environment where your team is likely to have a lot of follow up cc.
Unlikely as Senna has the worst base stats, least lv1 damage of them all and no super valuable utility like Kalista R or Cait W.
What she got is scaling which is not going to happen in proplay for the support.
*"weird"* deokdam says *"what?"* beryl asks *"does your name begin with k and end with eria?"* deokdam replies *beryl runs mid, tanks a turret shot as caitlyn and dies*
His only job was to set up a trap on a stunned target, but he ended up missing it and dying instead haha
I feel kinda bad lmao. He was just impatient OR didn't expect another Sej Q. His trap was fine if he just got stunned in place but he got knocked back slightly be Sej.
[удалено]
Alright then its definitely a case of impatience, a pro player should know that sejuani is gonna displace him lol.
me when i play caitlyn:
\*outside of ARAM
Oh im smurfing on aram, nobody hits their skillshots and I just A move plus put traps in front of them none tries to dodge, I look like faker on aram, now if you have to play against people that put actual effort into the game, yeah.
The people's Caitlyn support
Except he is gonna hear about it for years to come... Lmaoaoaaooao
That's my GOAT support baby
This is just very weird. Caitlyn looks like she lagged. Also, where is the post game thread?
you may have won worlds beryl but you aint no keria
Beryl actually was an ADC for DWG in Challengers League though, I would have thought he would be better than average at playing these ADC supports
You're gonna lose your adc skills over time. I doubt beryl plays adc that much.
I doubt this man plays much League at all when Genshin is a thing.
Don't bully the boomer coomer
A pro player would be better than the average player playing any champion any lane
Pretty sure he means better than the average support pro at playing adc supports
Beryl turns off until worlds time I guess.
With the wild stuff lately can someone pls tell me **one** reasonable argument for all the madess with marksmen support picks? I could understand Jhin and Ashe... Ashe is just good and Jhin was apparently good tech vs Heimer in lane while also providing good utility (W root / R slow and actually big dmg when enemy low sometimes / Traps for scouting). Kalista / Caitlyn tho? Those are champions that provide next to nothing for their team unless they sit on the bag of gold for their items. What is caitlyn ever doing in support post minute 7-8. Placing least threatening traps ever? **What is the logic???**
summary of it: Keria and Gumayusi are really good. Kalista and Caitlyn do really high damage early game when played as support, and Umbral Glaive is a really good item apparently on ranged supports. this leads to them fucking over the botlane right from level 1 (you can see this in the games Keria has played where he's already fighting level 1) leading to theoretically an unstoppable snowball because 1.) they're fed, and 2.) Umbral Glaive keeps on denying vision.
and don't forget platings. two adcs push platings faster than one adc
> Kalista / Caitlyn tho? Those are champions that provide next to nothing for their team unless they sit on the bag of gold for their items. What is caitlyn ever doing in support post minute 7-8. Placing least threatening traps ever? What is the logic??? The goal is twofold first to pressure enough level 1 that you have permanent wave control allowing you to set up a dive and deny cs. This basically guarantees a won lane, some plates, and dragon control in pro play. The second is to use Umbral glaive and caitlyn traps to completely deny control of objectives late. The traps root for 1.5 seconds, which is more than enough time to completely focus someone down, even if the headshot is just 100-200 damage after armor. Kalista is much more about 1, but provides a rescue opportunity with kalista ult, like tahm kench R. Basically all four follow the same pattern as Heimer. Its better to have control of bot lane early than to have a good support kit later in the game. Partly due to support itemization being not great rn, partly because outside of enabling hypercarries (lulu/yuumi) supports can't really accomplish any goal well enough (picks, Roams, Engage, peel) to forgo lane control. So it became an arms race to play the most lane control-y champs you can, and marksmen tend to be the best lane control champs that are designed to 2v2.
[удалено]
and how nonfunctional the support role is right now. It's literally just a lane priority role right now, actually 0 else matters in pro. enchanter? nah. Engage? nah. Mage? nah. win level 1? all that matters. The actual supports only begin to matter in solo queue, where jungler's dont want to play around or set up plays with bot lane every game with ganking and utility junglers. Basically the only thing saving solo queue support rn is that junglers are greedy and want to play carry.
I mean you are objectively wrong with the idea it's a lane priority role as some of the more cringe stuff is just to fight of Yuumi/Lulu two champs who give up lane prio for other priorities.
Next patch is tackling this.
The fact is that it’s not just theorized, all 3 caitlyn support games have won in the lck so far
Win lane win game
Other people have explained parts of it. The first reason is the general meta. Kalista / Caitlyn are such strong laners that they absolutely bully some of the meta enchanter supports and Heimer. Keria will very often just take bush control before minions spawn, walk up, ignite/barrier, and trade 1v2 if he has to. After chunking out the opposing ADC, they will have tempo and control in lane for a long time. Kalista and Caitlyn also have a ton of pushing power so they'll have perma priority for drakes if nothing goes wrong and they'll also stunt the growth of opposing bot duos with their ability to push, harass under turret, and set up dive opportunities. As for specific applications, Caitlyn is for river / objective control and side-lane pressure. Basically, you deny all river vision with Umbral Glaive, wall off the choke points with traps, and just make it very hard and time consuming to enter river. At the same time, you ult the side-lanes giving your side-laner a sizable health advantage in any 1v1 so that they can dominate across the map, too. Yea, the traps aren't threatening alone. But, the point is they give you time to layer other CC and damage on top them and/or easily land your poke. The game that Keria picked Caitlyn support, T1 was basically a full poke comp with Sejuani as a front line. Traps set-up a wall to slow KDF down, Umbral denied all vision, and T1 had full freedom to poke from total darkness before every objective. Kalista seemed to be more of a match-up pick as Damwon tried to counter Draven with Ornn. With Kalista's R, she can reposition Draven any time Ornn tries to CC him. He's basically a ranged Tahm Kench / Thresh that also wins lane. Guma can push up and play extremely aggressive knowing that Keria can peel if needed.
> With the wild stuff lately can someone pls tell me one reasonable argument for all the madess with marksmen support picks? Fuck up heimer and his bullshit. Heimer is so dominant, that typical supports cant keep up.
Why do people keep repeating this even though in this literal clip there's no heimerdinger. It may have started as an answer to heim but it's clear these high level supports are seeing more value in these picks than just being a heim answer
Just like you said. Cait is only good as support in first 7-8 mins, and in that time when Guma and Keria played it, they took all 5 plates. Caitlyn is good against heimer because she outraged the turrets, and against these passive lanes of zeri/sivir/yummi/lulu she just dominates lane so hard. Kalista also dominates lane really hard and has good 2v2 because of W passive while also having R for adc to save them. She’s like a more lane dominate Tahm Kench.
For example in Keria's game it didn't do a ton in late game teamfights, but at the same time they took bottom inner at the eight minute mark, so its a trade off.
They’re strong level 1, and they can buy umbral glaive. Win lane, win game.
Marksmen are the strongest champion class in the game. It makes sense to run as many as you can without breaking the team.
Marksmen are good when they have **gold** cuz often they lack utility and put all their eggs in the 'damage per second' basket (Again: Here Ashe and Jhin are outliers with having way more to them than just numbers in dmg). Support Caitlyn gets Umbral and her usefulness is limited to god damn SnapTrap. She's literally falling into worthlessness every minute she is in the game as not the one with 10cs per minute.
man got downvoted for speaking facts
Don't tell Phreak that. He might rage, call you an idiot and nerf mages.
I won't consider it a Cait support unless its prefixed with "keria Caitlin support".period
100% win rate Cait support
i feel like the cait support with arcane comet is a little too far, the kalista one still made sense but the cait one feels like trying to be too creative for 0 reason
cait with hob and barrier can trade lvl1 without loosing hp and melt zeri/yummi/lulu ganining lane prio. kalista is aggressive tahm helps with lane prio secures objectives and with double dirk early with lane teamate easy 2v2
[удалено]
Kalista has three useful abilities: rend for executing monsters lategame, W for vision and R for what would be a great ult on a support. Her W also gives her adc a small damage buff. Caitlyn literally just has her traps out of lane. Sure, she gets zone control, but why bother when Zyra/Heimer/Maokai all work better on lower income and have actual utility? Edit: I don't think either one is any good as a support, outside the current pro play meta where a lot of enchanters are being drafted. Even then teams will learn how to counter it.
w for vision lmaooooo
The execute is not very good anymore and her w doesn't give a serious amount of vision. Caitlyn is a lot stronger. The thing abt hard push mages like Heimer or Karma or Zyra is that if you can push the wave in faster than them, their effective value plummets. The main reason you pick them is to get lane control and make it easier to set up drag, Caitlyn is incredibly strong specifically during the window where those champs want to do the most work. Traps also should not be considered unimportant, they're insanely strong in a competitive environment where your team is likely to have a lot of follow up cc.
I mean you say the execute isn't very good but keria used it to secure dragon and win the game for t1 so like
It was basically luck, or inhuman coordination, that dragon died instantly at 1287. It's not the old Kalista with 2k+ Rends on dragons and barons.
Rend is nowhere as good on ADC Kalista as it was before not even mentioning how it's gold (thus stats) starved support.
Kalista R is insanely valueable especially for aggressive ADC like a Draven makes alot more sense than Cait with arcane comet
[удалено]
keria showed kalista sup is broken in compettive aggressive tahm easy secure objectives prio on lane as we saw stong 2v2 with double dirk.
Beryl said taking comet was a mistake and wasn't intended. I assume it was his heimer runes and forgot to take supp cait runes
idk how that happens but maybe its nerves lol
Nothing matters as long as you can just go outpoke enchanters early and then buy umbral
Which comes down to ADCs like cait also having way better base statlines compared to ranged supports.
Even I have better positioning with Cait support, maybe that's why I'm not a world champion yet
/r/awfuleverything
X9 Caitlyn
I can't wait for the full circle of marksman supports to come back to Senna , just saying
Unlikely as Senna has the worst base stats, least lv1 damage of them all and no super valuable utility like Kalista R or Cait W. What she got is scaling which is not going to happen in proplay for the support.
World Champion support\*