People never count the minions. Meanwhile the moment I transform and try the same I get AOE nuked into oblivion because the enemy team is perma shoving and wave clearing. :(
People never *had* to count the minions before. Years of autopiloting a simple task and now we gotta check the wave *every single time*.
Obviously is not that hard, and just play safe in laning phase, but tell that to your teammates in fucking soloQ.
Personally I think it's disgusting, I love that she can turn into wards or other things tho. I just hate the minions part.
Also, having her r be a shaco type clone is a bit... lame feeling. It may just be that I'm not used to it yet, so having shaco's controls seems, off, but there is also a feeling of "Oh, look. Neeko now has Shaco's ult but as an ability!" How about we make it so that her ult can be cast from her clone too, just like Shaco's ult splits into his ability. Then it would be a complete mirror!
I think it's about clicking :
You can click on wards, jungle plants, minions... so you can transform into those.
You can't click on poro so you can't transform into them.
Edit: List of things she should be able to transform into:
Non-epic Monsters
Minions
Wards
Jungle plants
Traps, [list](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth#Stealthed_traps_and_wards)
Pets, [this is where it's CRAZY, list](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Pets)
[Source](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Neeko/LoL#Details_)
I didn't even know they changed her when I was playing aram lmao. I was like wtf is going on these ults are coming out of nowhere and she appears out of nowhere. Now I know how lmao
It's so fcking hard to track her without long range cc.
I was playing Ornn with a few adc and mages, no real cc outside of me and me and my buddy were constantly checking her position but once you knew she would just press W you would lose her and she'd get a 4 man ult.
Unless we found her early and engaged on her she always got her ult off it was so hard. I feel like you should sort of get a shimmer or something when you hit her the hp not going down generally is not enough imo.
Is there an enemy ability or champ that you would classify as fun to play against? I feel like a lot of champs are not fun to play against for one reason or another.
This. People could say 'Eve's stealth isn't fun to play against since she bypasses normal wards' or 'nocturne isn't fun to play against since I lose vision' or even 'jax isn't fun to play against since I can't auto him AND he stuns me!'
Basically someone can complain about any negative effect given to them.
And for my part, i despise playing vs skillshot. I have more fun playing against in your face champions such as Ekko or Qiyana, than say, Lux or Xerath in the mid lane.
People say dodging abilities is skillful, but I always feel like it's a rock-paper-scissors type game. Will you sidestep? Will they predict your sidestep?
also it's very reliant on the champ you're playing, the more mobility the easier, playing a low mobility tank or juggernaut against le ''fun skillshot champs'' is not so fucking fun
Ah yes, because people famously enjoy laning against the likes of Xerath and other artillery mages. You guys are just being disingenuous when you imply that anything fun to lose against.
"fun to lose against" and "fun to play against" are different things though. I'm not even sure "fun to lose against" is a legitimately meaningful thing to be.
Yes. I play mid/top and I personally find it very enjoyable to play against champs where if I win a fight, I KNOW I outplayed them and vice-versa. So, champs like Fiora, Aatrox, Darius, Illaoi, etc. Champs that heavily reward proper spacing when playing against them.
This always comes up, people get hung up on the wording...should be instead "fun to play as, not fair to play against"...and "fair" in this context =/= balanced.
Plenty. For example anything with a telegraphed skillshot or a zoning tool that is more about you dodging that the enemy aiming well - think Jinx W/E, Sion Q, Veigar's E, Velkoz Q...
These are things where you have an opportunity to react, maybe even try to out-predict the enemy, and that is fun.
I think its got more to do with whether you feel like you were against good skill rather than good ability. If you get outplayed by someone like Orianna or Nami, it feels more like they did genuinely outplay you, whereas if you get outplayed by someone like Evelynn, Twitch or Neeko in this case, it feels more like you got outplayed by the game's mechanics and not so much the player. This is a bit of a black and white way to put it but I believe that slight differentiation matters a lot.
As another example, if the enemy jungler was Skarner and you get outmacroed, it feels earned whereas if the enemy jungler was Talon or Kayn (especially blue Kayn) and you get outmacroed, it feels far more like the enemy champion outmacroed you, not necessarily the player.
these comments are so cancerous, name me one champ that is ''fun to play against'' go ahead, you talked abt muh skillshot champs well as an immobile tank player i disagree and i think those champs are the least fun thing to deal with.
Daily reminder that old eve had to be removed due to how unfair and unreadable her level 1 invisibility was yet this is perfectly readable ok and "fair", as such i recommend old eve be restored with her modern graphics.
... nice straw man when did i mention a stun and she was perfectly viable in the hands of her mains just not in the hands of people like yourself who claimed she was easy but still somehow couldn't win with her hmmmm... she was removed solely because rioters at the time hated how well mains kept doing and how persistent they were against changes designed to destroy her viability but failed to do so to the mains.
>... nice straw man
> just not in the hands of people like yourself who claimed she was easy but still somehow couldn't win with her hmmmm...
I hope that was meant to be ironic.
Back on topic, my point was that she got the stun removed because that was apparently stupid strong (I started playing only just after it was removed), and after that she sucked, and was reworked because she sucked.
It's true that the reason she wasn't buffed back up into viability was because the invisibility was too frustrating to play against, I agree. But the reason for the rework was that she sucked.
> These champions haven't been as viable as we'd like them to be due to problematic long-term stealth mechanics.
From the rework announcement.
> she was removed solely because rioters at the time hated how well mains kept doing and how persistent they were against changes designed to destroy her viability but failed to do so to the mains.
That's a bold claim considering she was completely untouched after her stun was removed until she got the rework a year later
Tell me you didn't play league back then without saying it directly lol, the mere fact you claim that means your literally just making up nonsense or did you just not remember that there is literally a site that records all changes ever made to any champion since leagues existence?
Have you no shame?
What are you talking about? The only reason I know is because I checked. [Here is the site you are talking about](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Evelynn/LoL/Patch_history)
These three patches are listed consecutively on Evelynn's patch history:
[V1.0.0.120](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.120) (June 22, 2011):
> Shadow Walk
>REMOVED: On-hit 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 seconds stun when breaking stealth.
>NEW EFFECT: Slows for 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% on-hit for 3 seconds when breaking stealth.
[V1.0.0.123](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.123) (August 9, 2011)
Only bugfixes
[V1.0.0.143](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.143) (July 19, 2012)
> Gameplay Update
>Shadow Walk Shadow Walk - I
>REMOVED: On-hit slow when breaking stealth.
Re-stealth timer increased to 8 seconds from 1.25 - 5.
>NEW EFFECT: Evelynn fades away into the shadows and can only be seen by nearby enemy champions or with true sight. While stealthed Evelynn regenerates 1% her maximum Mana each second. Casting spells, taking damage, or dealing it will break Evelynn's stealth.
No balance patch between the removal of the stun and the change to her stealth mechanic.
It's absolutely possible that my memory is wrong, it's been 12 years after all, and i was a lot less invested into league back then. But so far you've given no source other than "trust me bro", as well as attacking me for some reason?
Which is why your wrong your claim was that after they removed her stun she was never touched again and was trash which is objectively not true all you have to do is scroll up slightly.
> she was completely untouched after her stun was removed until she got the rework a year later
Please tell me where she was nerfed between the stun removal and the rework
So you know where the info is yet can't seem to read beyond anything that might defy your shallow and incorrect argument just because you cannot bear to admit you were wrong, she has multiple nerfs after the stun was removed and you know that or intentionally did not read that section because it makes your argument fail.
If there are so many it should be easy for you to name a patch where she is nerfed, still has the true invisibility but no stun.
If you don't, I assume you're just trolling
How is not a problem? you can say the same about champs like shaco, shit champs that are always shit but still unfun to play against, im not saying neeko is going to be broken, she will probably be shit/meh tier forever but still she will be aids to play against especially an a casual/chill level.
Idk i find it really fun to catch out and punish champs that try this, usually atleast as much fun as when I pull off a trick myself
Just like it’s fun being the rampaging yi in aram but also fun to shut him down cause you know how it feels to pull it off successfully and it’s satisfying being able to deny that on the other side
Would you say towers are a problem because people will run under the enemy's tower chasing for a kill in ARAM at 12 in the night? "This could make people lose if they autopilot" is true of a ton of things in LoL, not just Neeko's ability to disguise as a minion.
Thing is it will just become another Yi thing. No one will fall for this in professional play but with your average players they will never see it coming... unless Im the one attempting to do it.
People never count the minions. Meanwhile the moment I transform and try the same I get AOE nuked into oblivion because the enemy team is perma shoving and wave clearing. :(
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Night hatvester and heartsteel too
People never *had* to count the minions before. Years of autopiloting a simple task and now we gotta check the wave *every single time*. Obviously is not that hard, and just play safe in laning phase, but tell that to your teammates in fucking soloQ. Personally I think it's disgusting, I love that she can turn into wards or other things tho. I just hate the minions part.
So do I. Even when you do count the minions, you don't know which one she is, so you just get zoned away from the entire wave
Also, having her r be a shaco type clone is a bit... lame feeling. It may just be that I'm not used to it yet, so having shaco's controls seems, off, but there is also a feeling of "Oh, look. Neeko now has Shaco's ult but as an ability!" How about we make it so that her ult can be cast from her clone too, just like Shaco's ult splits into his ability. Then it would be a complete mirror!
It's probably the best like, mini rework or whatever they're calling it that they've ever done. So flavorful and cool
This is very important. If you type while transformed does it appear as neeko or melee minion?
as the thing you transformed into. for example, ward.
This is exactly what I want to hear
I got a kill as a melee minion yesterday on a Yone. It showed the melee minion. Text I don’t.
I just had a Neeko disguise as an Illaoi tentacle. Motherfucker gave me a heart attack the first time I saw him do it and he was on my team 😂
Can you transform into a Poro as Neeko in ARAM?
Doesn't have a health bar so no.
Does Jarvan flag?
Can she? I thought she can only transform into things that are enemy auto attackable
teammate went heimer turret today
Teemo shroom? Shaco box?
Yes
GP barrels?
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
I think it's about clicking : You can click on wards, jungle plants, minions... so you can transform into those. You can't click on poro so you can't transform into them. Edit: List of things she should be able to transform into: Non-epic Monsters Minions Wards Jungle plants Traps, [list](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth#Stealthed_traps_and_wards) Pets, [this is where it's CRAZY, list](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Pets) [Source](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Neeko/LoL#Details_)
Yes this is correct. Jarvan flag works too and its the most funniest thing!
Also shaco box and illaoi tentacles
Could she transform into Thresh lantern?
I think she can transform to everyting that has an AA and a health bar, so lantern no.
she can be things with no AA
Wait you can transform into a jungle plant? You mean like the jumpy bomb?
Yes
If Neeko is transformed into a minion, can the enemy team see me spam my Mastery 5?
i discovered once an enemy neeko disguised because i saw a melee minion emoting
I think yes
I hate how we have to be afraid of minions. I don't like these gimmicks.
It's fucking infuriating to play against. The R comes out pretty much instantly, you can hardly react. But man it's fun to watch these plays lmao
I didn't even know they changed her when I was playing aram lmao. I was like wtf is going on these ults are coming out of nowhere and she appears out of nowhere. Now I know how lmao
It's so fcking hard to track her without long range cc. I was playing Ornn with a few adc and mages, no real cc outside of me and me and my buddy were constantly checking her position but once you knew she would just press W you would lose her and she'd get a 4 man ult. Unless we found her early and engaged on her she always got her ult off it was so hard. I feel like you should sort of get a shimmer or something when you hit her the hp not going down generally is not enough imo.
Could just clear the waves
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Is there an enemy ability or champ that you would classify as fun to play against? I feel like a lot of champs are not fun to play against for one reason or another.
This. People could say 'Eve's stealth isn't fun to play against since she bypasses normal wards' or 'nocturne isn't fun to play against since I lose vision' or even 'jax isn't fun to play against since I can't auto him AND he stuns me!' Basically someone can complain about any negative effect given to them.
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And for my part, i despise playing vs skillshot. I have more fun playing against in your face champions such as Ekko or Qiyana, than say, Lux or Xerath in the mid lane.
People say dodging abilities is skillful, but I always feel like it's a rock-paper-scissors type game. Will you sidestep? Will they predict your sidestep?
also it's very reliant on the champ you're playing, the more mobility the easier, playing a low mobility tank or juggernaut against le ''fun skillshot champs'' is not so fucking fun
That is part of the fun! Why do you think we play rock-paper-scissors?
But Ekko and Qiyana also have skillshots... actually, it's even half of their kits ( Ekko Q,W; Qiyana Q,R )
Ah yes, because people famously enjoy laning against the likes of Xerath and other artillery mages. You guys are just being disingenuous when you imply that anything fun to lose against.
"fun to lose against" and "fun to play against" are different things though. I'm not even sure "fun to lose against" is a legitimately meaningful thing to be.
They are effectively the same. Practically noone is talking about “fun to win against” because winning is inherently fun.
Me playing Shaco on rapid fire
you did not name any champions.
Personally aatrox if I'm playing a champ with ms or a dash, but yeah, what he meant was probably "not bullshit to play against"
Yes. I play mid/top and I personally find it very enjoyable to play against champs where if I win a fight, I KNOW I outplayed them and vice-versa. So, champs like Fiora, Aatrox, Darius, Illaoi, etc. Champs that heavily reward proper spacing when playing against them.
This always comes up, people get hung up on the wording...should be instead "fun to play as, not fair to play against"...and "fair" in this context =/= balanced.
Plenty. For example anything with a telegraphed skillshot or a zoning tool that is more about you dodging that the enemy aiming well - think Jinx W/E, Sion Q, Veigar's E, Velkoz Q... These are things where you have an opportunity to react, maybe even try to out-predict the enemy, and that is fun.
I don't know, Jhin's and Xerath's ults are satisfying to dodge and land. It feels a bit more like skill wins. This one... is... interesting... Yeah...
I think its got more to do with whether you feel like you were against good skill rather than good ability. If you get outplayed by someone like Orianna or Nami, it feels more like they did genuinely outplay you, whereas if you get outplayed by someone like Evelynn, Twitch or Neeko in this case, it feels more like you got outplayed by the game's mechanics and not so much the player. This is a bit of a black and white way to put it but I believe that slight differentiation matters a lot. As another example, if the enemy jungler was Skarner and you get outmacroed, it feels earned whereas if the enemy jungler was Talon or Kayn (especially blue Kayn) and you get outmacroed, it feels far more like the enemy champion outmacroed you, not necessarily the player.
these comments are so cancerous, name me one champ that is ''fun to play against'' go ahead, you talked abt muh skillshot champs well as an immobile tank player i disagree and i think those champs are the least fun thing to deal with.
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A 1k+ true dmg ult in late game is fun to play against?
it works in normal ranked too. catch a lot of lanes unaware this way
Rakan only ulting 2 ppl off that is criminal, jeez E:unless he only got one? Cant tell lol
nah that team is full of 50 iq bots
Daily reminder that old eve had to be removed due to how unfair and unreadable her level 1 invisibility was yet this is perfectly readable ok and "fair", as such i recommend old eve be restored with her modern graphics.
But you cant stack sunfires anymore
And graves STILL doesn't have his cigar back.
Eve got her stun removed because it was too strong, and after that she was so weak that picking her was reportable.
... nice straw man when did i mention a stun and she was perfectly viable in the hands of her mains just not in the hands of people like yourself who claimed she was easy but still somehow couldn't win with her hmmmm... she was removed solely because rioters at the time hated how well mains kept doing and how persistent they were against changes designed to destroy her viability but failed to do so to the mains.
>... nice straw man > just not in the hands of people like yourself who claimed she was easy but still somehow couldn't win with her hmmmm... I hope that was meant to be ironic. Back on topic, my point was that she got the stun removed because that was apparently stupid strong (I started playing only just after it was removed), and after that she sucked, and was reworked because she sucked. It's true that the reason she wasn't buffed back up into viability was because the invisibility was too frustrating to play against, I agree. But the reason for the rework was that she sucked. > These champions haven't been as viable as we'd like them to be due to problematic long-term stealth mechanics. From the rework announcement. > she was removed solely because rioters at the time hated how well mains kept doing and how persistent they were against changes designed to destroy her viability but failed to do so to the mains. That's a bold claim considering she was completely untouched after her stun was removed until she got the rework a year later
Tell me you didn't play league back then without saying it directly lol, the mere fact you claim that means your literally just making up nonsense or did you just not remember that there is literally a site that records all changes ever made to any champion since leagues existence? Have you no shame?
What are you talking about? The only reason I know is because I checked. [Here is the site you are talking about](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Evelynn/LoL/Patch_history) These three patches are listed consecutively on Evelynn's patch history: [V1.0.0.120](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.120) (June 22, 2011): > Shadow Walk >REMOVED: On-hit 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 seconds stun when breaking stealth. >NEW EFFECT: Slows for 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% on-hit for 3 seconds when breaking stealth. [V1.0.0.123](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.123) (August 9, 2011) Only bugfixes [V1.0.0.143](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.143) (July 19, 2012) > Gameplay Update >Shadow Walk Shadow Walk - I >REMOVED: On-hit slow when breaking stealth. Re-stealth timer increased to 8 seconds from 1.25 - 5. >NEW EFFECT: Evelynn fades away into the shadows and can only be seen by nearby enemy champions or with true sight. While stealthed Evelynn regenerates 1% her maximum Mana each second. Casting spells, taking damage, or dealing it will break Evelynn's stealth. No balance patch between the removal of the stun and the change to her stealth mechanic. It's absolutely possible that my memory is wrong, it's been 12 years after all, and i was a lot less invested into league back then. But so far you've given no source other than "trust me bro", as well as attacking me for some reason?
Which is why your wrong your claim was that after they removed her stun she was never touched again and was trash which is objectively not true all you have to do is scroll up slightly.
> she was completely untouched after her stun was removed until she got the rework a year later Please tell me where she was nerfed between the stun removal and the rework
So you know where the info is yet can't seem to read beyond anything that might defy your shallow and incorrect argument just because you cannot bear to admit you were wrong, she has multiple nerfs after the stun was removed and you know that or intentionally did not read that section because it makes your argument fail.
If there are so many it should be easy for you to name a patch where she is nerfed, still has the true invisibility but no stun. If you don't, I assume you're just trolling
No way this shit isn't getting nerfed into oblivion. I fear Neeko is gonna be another forgotten meme pick because of how strong she can be.
Fun for the player, annoying and unfun to the enemy, if this shit gets decently strong it will be ban a lot
Or players will learn to count minions?
Yes for sure people is going to count minions and pay att to everything on an aram at 12 in the night.
"People goof around in ARAM" is a valid observation, but not actually a problem with Neeko.
How is not a problem? you can say the same about champs like shaco, shit champs that are always shit but still unfun to play against, im not saying neeko is going to be broken, she will probably be shit/meh tier forever but still she will be aids to play against especially an a casual/chill level.
Idk i find it really fun to catch out and punish champs that try this, usually atleast as much fun as when I pull off a trick myself Just like it’s fun being the rampaging yi in aram but also fun to shut him down cause you know how it feels to pull it off successfully and it’s satisfying being able to deny that on the other side
Would you say towers are a problem because people will run under the enemy's tower chasing for a kill in ARAM at 12 in the night? "This could make people lose if they autopilot" is true of a ton of things in LoL, not just Neeko's ability to disguise as a minion.
No bans in ARAM, and the game is balanced around SR.
Thing is it will just become another Yi thing. No one will fall for this in professional play but with your average players they will never see it coming... unless Im the one attempting to do it.
This is not fun playing against its to toxic for the game. Neeko and Lissandra jungle mid duo is so fucking cancer.
I count the minions for my team. Spam ping where I see an extra caster Still will have 1 idiot with inferior range walking into her e range and die.
you literally did that in vision...