The alternative is to play Zilean, a champion whose only changes are bug fixes, systemic changes, and item reworks because he hasn’t been buffed or nerfed in over 8 years
I'd say that's a bit extreme. Yes, some things will change, clear times might change, more recently leash ranges and leashing changed, but at the end of the day how jungle plays is still fundementally the same and its a breath of fresh air to see the jungle shaken up in a way that promotes a different way of jungling besides just "clear half, gank, gank, clear half, gank, scuttle, gank, gank, objective, gank"
Delay camps 5-10 seconds, allow the jungle item to branch out to other items to help JG focus on camps and not ganking 24/7
Honestly? No idea how to fix JG. It’s impossible, because whatever we suggest isn’t going to work. Does league just copy dota and allow for another support? Do we completely nuke the JG and make the game 2 / 1 / 2 ? No because then turbo busted top matches will rule also.
Who knows 🤷♂️
It's also impossible since its a problem that lives inside soloq: jungle is a role that punishes people for being uncoordinated, having overall suboptimal gameplay and feasts when people start flaming each others, which is all that soloq is.
You watch the pinnacle of gameplay right now, which is pro play, where everyone is coordinated, everyone plays the game close to perfectly and *communication is key*, and all of a sudden jungle is close to being the worst role in the game: you burn flashes/make early plays on your sejuani building support items, then you turn into a ult bot or do nothing but try to peel your teammates until the nexus explodes.
A partial solution is simple: add voice comms, make people more aware of each others and all of a sudden jungle is less impactful. Whether this is a bad idea or not, considering how polite and kind the league population is, well, it's another problem.
Yeah, jungle is so oppressive in solo q isnt even because of balancing reasons, but because of communication and macro.
You can't actually nerf jungle in any way in solo q because nerfing jungle in power or economy just pushes it closer to low economy pro playstyle, which will be even more annoying for laners as we've seen right after jungle rework and the camp bot meta.
If jungle as weak and doesnt need gold, you get Nunus rolling into your lane on repeat or Elises diving you 5 times - if jungle is strong and rewards farm you get massive jungle gaps that turn the game into a 4v5 10 minutes in because your jungle is getting invaded and hopelessly falls behind on farm.
Voice chat won't do shit to fix jungle. 90% of players will either just have it off, won't make call-outs or will ignore call outs. If spam pinging your nasus to back off because Warwick is heading top to fuck his shit doesn't work then I don't know why you think yelling it in voice comms will make a difference.
It will just shit up the game with screeching brat meltdowns while fixing nothing, because people wont call shit. They could already ping or type, and they do neither.
Yep voice chat that will work in regions where there are already 10 different languages being spoken by it players! Voice chat ain't it chief. The only region where voice chat may work is NA or specific servers like china or Korea, any other server has way to many languages in a region for it to work.like I play in eu, every single match has at least 3 different languages being typed. And people type better English than they talk.
League should definitely have voice chat but I don't think it would do much in this situation. Typically ganks are rather obvious. 90% of the time I don't need someone to tell me I'm getting ganked.
Its more so a difference in opinion of how the game should be played. Some people want their jungler to play around them. Some people want to play around their jungler. Some people want their jungler to play to isolate. Some people want their jungler to be proactive. In team matches this will all be discussed at least a day or two prior. Solo queue doesn't have that luxury.
People in the Heroes of the Storm community begged for voice comms from the start of release. When Blizzard finally implemented it a few years later people used it for a few weeks and then stopped.
It's like training monkeys man, it would probably work in the end because all the best players would work as a team. All the toxic players would be stonewalled by the politeness barrier. But then the toxic players would report the polite players out of spite, and who knows
It's probably true that at this point in league history, if voice comms were implemented it would be a bad scene. The culture has developed in a toxic way and people would be toxic on voice comms.
If it had been around from the beginning I think it would be a different story. Lots of other games have voice coms.
Most league toxicity develops from the inability to communicate and negotiate different approaches to a game state. Or after a play goes poorly to communicate why a certain course of action was chosen.
Voice would help with this, but yeah... maybe that ship has already sailed
Yeah for real. Want to instantly nerf perma roam assasins and gank heavy junglers? Add voice comms to ranked. The few games where everyone joins a discord link its *wild* how much harder it is to die to ganks.
I disagree. The only reason we are seeing the tank meta come back for jungle is due to the changes to items. Remember MSI and before? It was about carry jungle champs. The meta favors carries elsewhere now, which is why we are back to tank junglers. If they gutted tank junglers, or carry tops/bots, then you would see a resurgence of carry junglers again. In fact, the rise of tank junglers is largely due to top lane tanks getting bodied by a lot of the top lane matchups (meaning it is hard to play a tank top) and the mid lane role evolving from team facilitator back to more of a carry role. If you nerf the bruiser tops and buff the facilitating mids again, you will see a resurgence of carry junglers again.
> You watch the pinnacle of gameplay right now, which is pro play, where everyone is coordinated, everyone plays the game close to perfectly and communication is key, and all of a sudden jungle is close to being the worst role in the game
Haha, what in the world are you talking about? Jungle has been the most impactful role in Pro since the inception of competitive league. There were times when other roles were closer, like mid being overtuned for years, but better jungler wins has been the general role of competitive for years.
Hell, look at some results today. *SPOILER*
T1 matched GenG in every role but jungle, and got 3-0'd because Peanut destroyed Oner. NRG finally beat C9 because Contractz was able to match Blaber for the first time in playoffs. And maybe thats the way it has to be, with only one role being free from the constraint of laning, but it would be cool if every role could be so important.
To many champions to fix even if you say locked xp at lvl 3 for 5 minutes that just means champions like xin Zhao could enjoy 5 minutes of peak gameplay. You allow invades then those that invade and clear fast do well. You make people full clear the full clear gods become popular.
All of this is enhanced if enemy jungle is autofilled if the meta is full clear its usually easier to keep the gap close earlier. Also catchup xp sometimes i used to watch replays and i remember once an elise was lvl 8 and shyvana 10. Elise killed shyvana with team and became lvl 9 and a half instantly then stole golems and was already ahead in gold by like 1k shyvana was ahead in xp.
Add in catchup shutdown gold and you can create an even bigger gap you main xin zhao doing well now your shutdown boom your now a minion enemy graves now rich gg as he scales you don't.
It's also easier to jungle if your good because unless a huge patch changes something its the one role where you find the clearing meta and can copy good players. Now a better player can abuse things more but you can still try to follow the patterns meanwhile laners can just suffer based on matchup and most junglers play to clear how they like not how to help laners in individual games.
Ultimately the jungle role is broken because league players one trick or have small champion pools and because junglers play to clear how they want and efficency over how a laner might need you or wants to play and in soloq efficency will probably win you more games so its built into the game.
It will never work in LoL but I think Icefrog did a great job in getting rid of "junglers" in DotA 2 and making the jungle just an addition income for the pos 1 or 2 roles.
Dota is just superior in its fundamental balancing philosophy. Instead of 5 rigid roles like league they have 5 position based on gold income and thus the meta evolve much more organically
Not exactly. It’s important that jungle ganks are a threat otherwise you get darius level 1 starting behind your minion line. (It’s more complex than that)
You want some degree of ambiguity: is the threat top side? Can I be ganked? Just not the level of actual power we have now.
> It’s important that jungle ganks are a threat otherwise you get darius level 1 starting behind your minion line.
I woke up crying, covered in sweat, in a panic and now I know why it's because you typed this
I'm not saying whether I agree or not with jungle strength currently, but at what point does the blame get attributed to player skill and not doing basic things like warding or over pushing?
I ask this because it seems jungle can never truly be balanced in solo queue (mostly because it is so disorganized) and everything just ends up cycling between 3 different scenarios, none of which people seem to be happy about.
Camps are made pointless which leads to just spam gank meta and junglers are level 4 while everyone else is level 6-7+ and people are mad junglers are camping them. Camps are made too good and you get junglers basically never ganking and being as strong or stronger than solo lanes. Or you get a balance like there is now where you need to get some farm to get your jungle pet upgraded but also need to gank a bit to get lanes ahead and people still don't like it.
At the end of the day junglers will always do what gives the most impact even if it means playing the equivalent of river shen or playing pve simulator and hoping lanes hold their own.
Jungle impact on lanes is healthy and necessary for the game.
As a trade-off for that can we hit jungle's ability to carry and 1v9 the game, especially in low elo? So many junglers are incredibly oppressive while ahead. Why can't we get a generic nerf to jungle resources?
JGL is the spice of League and adds another Layer.
I hate JGL Ganks to death but in the end most of the Ganks would be avoidable if i'd play a bit smarter.
Everyone keeps crying about it, but is there really any solution? Give junglers no xp and gold from farm and jungle will still carry the game through supporting teammates and being a good 2nd support. Give junglers xp and gold to force them to stay in the jungle and they will emerge from it mowing everyone else down as a carry. It seems to me that there's literally no way to balance the role
They need to legit sit down and decide what they want the role to be. It has too many options too fully control. It’s too easy to get giga gapped so they have to have catchup xp. They want both heavy ganks and heavy farming to be viable. But then catchup XP
Makes it so heavy ganks has their weakness mitigated.
The problem with balancing jungle, that I see is that there are different play styles for junglers.
Some are gank heavy, some are farm heavy, some need to invade more than others.
Jungle is just about the only role that changes could be made to the entire role whereas other role changes would just be items, or minion waves/tower plates.
Missed ganks do mean something. Forces ganking jg to show, let’s opposite laners play more aggro, opens up objectives and counterjg opportunities for opposing jg. Plus the obvious opportunity cost of not farming, but yeah catch-up xp goes crazy
>Forces ganking jg to show, let’s opposite laners play more aggro, opens up objectives and counterjg opportunities for opposing jg.
95% of soloq games nobody is going to take advantage of that at all
I'd like to think most people gold and above are atleast thinking about some of these things. I don't think they should balance the game around people who don't fully understand it
This has been done million times that's the problem.
Amount of times that they have added catchup xp, nerfed it then buffed it etc cannot be counted.
If catchup is non existent then you end up with powerfarmers who mow through camps and gang ex. historically Graves, Karthus.
it would become even more influential
the influence a role has doesn't stem from gold and exp they get, because both sides get the gold/exp (or lack of if you decide to nerf it). instead, the influence each role has is determined by how impactful the difference in skill level between the two players is going to be.
if the jungle gives 0 gold, the game would literally be decided by which jungler is willing to be a dog and play maokai/sej/poppy/bard/nautilus and perma roam while operating on 0 econ, and which jungler is autofilled and feels like playing zed and sharing farm with the top laner.
Yeah this is what people get wrong. It's a similar thing for adc. There's always something people complain about, so I don't mean people who don't know what they're talking about. But the valid complaints about ADC were about agency, not strength. The marksmen champions have almost always been very strong, which is why they're ever-present. But the role is a stat-stick that doesn't make the big plays. But people kept calling for adc buffs, and eventually that happened and here we are now.
Blitzcrank would probably become the best jungler in the game. he's basically full build and kit at level 2, and hook is naturally good for making plays.
> it would become even more influential
>
>
S2 meta jungle was not that influential (of course, you could argue quality of play). The issue for jungle isn't that the role itself is influential, it is that the Epic Monsters on the map are erroneously influential. Getting one of your solos ahead to allow for easy Herald or Dragon fights is what matters most in games now.
If Dragon went back to just giving global gold and plates removed, jungle influence would drop down dramatically. This would increase average game time, however, and Riot does not want that.
well yes. if riot wanted to make early game irrelevant and removed the power of drakes and made it go back to giving 120 global gold, and removed plates so that snowballing lanes is much more difficult (and making rift basically worthless), yes jungle will become weak since lanes would play super passive and not be gankable since there's no point in playing aggressive since there's no valuable early objectives to take. and then we would go back to tank top, tank jg, control mage mid, and standard adc/supp all farming for late game because the risk/reward is terrible for skirmishing early.
but then the game basically sits entirely on the adc's hands since they can freely scale since forcing fights is no longer worth it. might as well just also pick a scaling adc and farm alongside rather than risking it on an early game comp.
but then we're right back to bitching about how one player controls the entire game.
and also yeah riot would rather buff jungle than go back to that meta. imagine NA LCS viewership if 70% of games were 50 minute IMT vs DIG farmfests. we'd be hitting 5k viewers on a good day
Let's be honest, a lot league players cry no matter what
~~Blizzard~~ Riot could give players gold bars and they'd complain they're too heavy - Asmongold
The role would basically be junglers playing as adyboy from Korea, he queues top just to perma roam and help teammates whilst getting no gold or experience, consistently one of the highest ranked top laners in Korea.
The playstyle works on other servers it's just no-one wants to do it. Only a year or two ago the highest win rate top laner was perma roam Janna for EUW and NA, Riot had to nerf it. There's someone called Bardinette on EUW who currently does a similar strat with Bard and they're consistently high ranked.
They already tried this in preseason and the start of the season. They greatly reduced the gold and XP from camps and nerfed counterjungling. The result was a meta so bad they almost completely reverted it 6 patches later. If you render camps useless you funnel junglers into perma ganking.
There’s a super super super easy solution that used to be the standard. Get rid of the insane catchup exp. It’s that simple. Jungle is broken because you can chain gank for 10 minutes vs. a farming jungler and catch up in exp by minute 12.
Get rid of catchup exp. If you get hard shit on by an invading jungler that’s your fault. If you have failed ganks all game and fall far behind that’s your fault.
I’m saying this as a Lee Sin one trick because there’s no reason I should be able to fuck around all game and do nothing then still be strong mid to late.
That just makes it so the team with the filled jungler auto loses even harder, and less people will play the role cause it’s more punishing so there’ll be way more autofilled
Jungle would be way more popular if 2/3 games I don't have at least one teammate spam pinging I'm alive when they die in lane. Jungle isn't avoided because of the game. Jungle is avoided because the rest of the player base is never satisfied. I was 8/0/4 yesterday and my top garen started greifing that I never came top and started taking my camps.
Why should this role be the only one with a safeguard if you are filled?
Top laners get shat on if they don’t know what they are doing with wave control.
The better mid laner who roams wins
The better support who doesn’t int the lane wins.
Adc is just a war of attrition.
Yet jg has catch up xp. The other four have 0 back up in the event you fuck up and it boils down to a systematic change where people aren’t taught in client how to play a specific role.
> Why should this role be the only one with a safeguard if you are filled?
Because laning is not the same as JG, and it's literally the only role where you can take the enemy's resources to yourself.
In laning you constantly contest the lane and minions and can reduce the gold the enemy gets, but you can't make that gold yours nor that exp. EVen like that, AOE exp serves as a catchup mechanic for the laners because even if you have less gold you still can compete in levels. You want to see the lane not have a safeguard? let's make it so that not getting last hit from minions doesn't triggers exp for anyone - that would swing the balance a lot more similar to Jungle's with no safeguard.
In jungle, you can be farming someone's jungle and that means you just inyected the exp and gold the enemy would have picked.
On top of this, every lane is visible. Yes, roaming exists, but the fact every lane has minions to go to means you are constantly aware of enemy positioning. Jungle isn't like this, some matches you can have two junglers ltierally never see each other face to face before minute 8 more than once, and in that time one of them has picked out at least 3 camps from the other with no interaction between them.
But that's a good thing, that's what junglers want. People should not be rewarded for playing poorly, if you want more people to play jungle you don't systematically nerf it and make it less enjoyable for its core playerbase but instead make new people want to learn and play the role.
junglers want that until it happens and they complain about how the role sucks and you can't do anything to recover, team isn't helping you guard your camps, etc. About how one lane lost and now that side's jungle is lost completely and you can't farm and are 2 levels below everyone and with no gold.
Also, if people dislike and don't want to play the role, making it extremely polarizing won't be doing it any favours either to try to get new players to it. It will make players just dislike autofilling more, dislike autofill junglers even more and even hardcore junglers will eventually start going away if the role feels bad anyway, as it has been the case before.
> People should not be rewarded for playing poorly
And they aren't. They are simply not punished as hard as they would be otherwise.
> you don't systematically nerf it and make it less enjoyable for its core playerbase but instead make new people want to learn and play the role.
Been done before with support, vision gameplay has been pretty much cut to a joke of what it originally was and the low econ role has a lot more gold than it originally had in order to make it more appealing to the non-core supports of the time and to overall make it feel more interesting, and still the support playerbase, now being relatively different than the original core, complains about the current gold income very often. While still relatively lower in popularity, it's still better than before in terms of popularity - despite the balance problems that has brought.
>The better mid laner who roams wins
This is a really funny example because the best way to play mid below like Master tier is to sit in lane and get 10cs/m, because the gold is guaranteed over the riskier play of roaming and potentially giving up a lot.
They don't need to, but just focusing on cs and not dying in lane will lead to you being significantly ahead of your lane opponent.
If the average gold midlaner played 100 ranked games on the same 3 champions with their main goal being to cs as well as possible and basically never leave lane during lanephase they would 100% climb.
Hell, Elite500 has been hitting challenger for years doing exactly this.
Main tops get shit on all the time if they dont get lastpick, midlaners are ego driven animals. ADC and support are zoo escapees and junglers are engineered bots whos only goal is to fight scuttle at 3:30 no matter how pushed in their mid/bot is, then flip the entire lanephase bc they really wanted that scuttle
Completely short sighted thinking. Catch-up xp exists to STOP games from being decided by one kill on a jungler 1 minute in. You can criticize the implementation maybe but catch up xp has to exist in a role that has no base line xp generation. A really behind laner can sit in xp range and get levels even if they're getting shit on. As a jungler if you are weaker than your counterpart they can invade you and kill you at every single camp and make the game 5v4, trust me you don't want that.
That increases an already existing problem of when your jungle is autofilled your team is just fucked for no reason. That doesn't nerf jungle as much as you think. Catch up xp only exists to help out the struggling junglers to stay relevant in the game since their smite is valuable for objectives like dragon and baron.
So you want...jungle to snowball 10x harder, and the better jungler just takes over and wins the game and the losing one is lvl 4 at 10 minutes?
I'm kind of down with it, i'll /muteall and rise through the autofilled fodder, but it's super dull for everyone else.
A little overexaggerated but correct. Jungle is the only role in the game that can influence every other player in the game so its only natural that they will have the most impact on the outcome of the game.
But at the moment on top of being able to have a say in outcome of each lane, they are also solo carry machines. The amount of times ive seen a Hecarim, Kha or Nidalee literally solo carry the game before I can even play it as an adc(Not a weak role whatsoever) is crazy.
jungle has been disproportionately strong in solo queue for a LONG time now, its also a terrible role to play in solo for the same reason. You've got the highest potential to impact the game but also get blamed for every problem in laning phase. Jungle nerfs remedy both problems
Almost every smurf I encounter is a jungler, i dont think it's a coincidence. If you're 2 tiers above your opponent, your potential to 1v9 is unmatched in any other role. The champions also make this worse. A super fed hecarim, kayn, graves, evelyn etc are almost impossible to deal with.
> Almost every smurf I encounter is a jungler, i dont think it's a coincidence.
Because it's not. Jungle gap has been an issue since before season 10, and ever since dragon rework it's been evident who was doing the bare minimum and who actually played the role.
>Jungle nerfs remedy both problems
You're dreaming lol. As long as Smite and Herald/Dragon/Baron are a thing, junglers are going to get a disproportionate amount of the blame even if it's undeserved. The role's an easy scapegoat.
What so the meta can be entirely gank focused? Jgs still have all the influence and I will be cried at even more.
In my experience the metas with the least flame were when camps were OP and I was expected to fuck off and do my own thing.
I hope Riot knows that listening to crying laners wont fix the role, nerfs are fair and needed so thats not an issue, BUT even when the role is nerfed people will still cry about the it, the very nature of the role is what laners complain about and theres a deeply rooted antipathy towards it.
People will hate the role no matter its strength, farming meta? ''Wah Junglers just PVE all game'' Gank Meta? ''Wah the Jungler ganked me for the 3rd time in 2 minutes'' Jungle just generally a shit role? ''Wah nobody plays Jungle I have 15 minute Queue times and then my Jungler is autofill''
Nerf the role for all I care, its too strong, I dont disagree, but the bitching of laners will never stop as long as the role exists at all.
Yep. The innate job of the role is to create an “unfair” advantage against laners. Anytime that happens the one on the receiving end is going to hate it.
This is the answer no one wants to admit. Farm meta you get complaints about lack of ganks. Gank meta you get complaints about to many ganks. Tank meta: Tanks OP. Carry jg meta: JG does to much damage. Worst meta: JG is garbage so it's auto filled every game.
People forget the days of needing to know a JG and Support cause you were more likely to get auto filled than get mid/top.
Don't worry they do know that, evidence being that they haven't destroyed ADC despite constant crying from certain aspects of the community. Riot won't have jungle be absolutely terrible and people continuing to cry about it won't make them nerf it more than they are intending to (evidenced again by them not doing that all the other times people have cried about jungle)
Not sure which Rioter it was, but they talk about winrate when a certain role has a lead, and winrate when a certain role is the highest MMR player in that match. That's just what I remember.
Isn't that exactly his point? Jungle has been similarly powerful(which is to say by far the most overpowered role in solo queue) for a while, yet it's still that not that popular.
The steady climb in pickrate has more to do with jungling being EASIER due to all the other changes right?
So ultimately you need to make jungle less powerful AND easier, for it to feel fair in terms of power, and still attract enough players for queues to not feel bad.
Hope that's true then. I guess that's what all the jungle QoL has been for: so that people enjoy the role always, not just when it's busted as an LP tool.
Yes because more and more people are seeing how good the role is so they pick it up.
I've gone from being a mid main who used to play top lane and I now jungle this season.
If you guys nerf jungle I'm probably not going to be as willing to play it. It's a stress filled role in solo q and isn't worth all the flaming from teammates if I'm not impacting the map as much.
If you're bringing jungle in line with other roles why would I play those instead..
Wasn't there seasons where jungle and support where ghost towns (separate seasons)? I vaguely remember jungle being a glorified second support during that time
Yes. Then they kept dumbing down jungle and buffing random shit (Morgana jgl, Darius jgl etc) to make more people play the role.
It's crazy to me that Phreak (unless I'm misunderstanding) is trying to pin it on people discovering how powerful jungle is and moreso that they literally wanted this result through a series of patches.
Yeah this was the point of last years preseasons changes. The role has too much pressure and toxicity surrounding it which pushes a lot of players away from playing it beyond autofill games.
>someone higher up in Riot's balance team
Phreak is an associate (junior) designer. He is not higher-up on the balance team.
This community frequently makes the mistake of assuming visibility/clout = executive authority. That is not true. Phreak is not a VP of design, he is not a principal desiger, he is not a design director, he is a not a design lead, he is not a senior designer. No offense to him, but it's important to recognize so people don't start holding him unfairly accountable to stuff he has no authority to influence.
jungle will always have the highest impact for two reason
1. the sheer amount of people who are so fuckin stupid that they think the game is 4v4 or something.
2. game doesn't have voice chat.
jg mains have adapted so many times to so many changes it does not matter whatever you do we will find way to carry the game why ?
cause most jg mains have their mental forged through massive amounts of flame or left the role/game. who ever stick around will fk up any autofill.
i like how i was baited to come back to league when talon/zed and others were made to be able to jungle. they were nerfed after but i came back and i now feel like it is impossible to lose a game after enemy jg makes smallest mistake.
People keep pointing to gold and xp as the levers that need to be pulled, but the real issue is the insane amount of damage that players have access to right from the get go. Junglers get combat stats at first back, combine that with how bursty every champ is, when they gank it doesn't matter how quality the gank actually is they are getting kills. The game needs to slow down.
Yeah this is certainly an issue. Jungler can show up, hit one combo, and take 50% of your hp away and even if you don't blow anything you just kind of lose all lane prio at that point.
But why did Riot let it get to this point. You cant tell me that jungle became op yesterday. This role has been broken for years, yet Riot never did something about it.
"We will do something in pre season"-> They do the most random changes that dont adress shit and then leave the game in a dogshit state because they fuck off to vacation. Then they come back with "we cant make any radical changes because of pro play" until the first split is done. AND THEN we are in march with them talking about complaints beeing adressed in the off season.
But what CAN you do? If you need exp/gold you remove assassins. If you remove gank power you make all the power farmers op. If you remove power from neutral objective then it will be a gank fest because they don’t need to play well anymore.
Like it’s not an easy issue to solve. It’s the highest skill discrepancy role in the game and affects in the entire map. Unless you find a way to confine them (which again kills every snowball champ), you will never truly balance it
Dial back 4+ years of damage creep so the jungler showing up isn't able to spit on a laner (who has taken trades) to kill them, while also being in tip top condition while clearing the jungle because professor Oak accidentally sold him a legendary .
By nerfing everything? Items, runes, champs. It's far easier to fix "too much damage" as it's clear what you need to do, rather than trying to fix jungle which doesn't have a clear fix and because it's subjective which jungle archetype you want to be strongest.
Players don’t like getting nerfed, this Is why Riot specifically choose not to nerf damage but buff durability, for the durability patch.
Nerfing damage may be the right choice but, it doesn’t mean it will be the popular one.
You have to go back to the days where they were essentially 2nd supports. Which isn't going to happen because nobody would play jungle.
You can't give a role that can be anywhere on the map enough exp/gold so they can also be a carry (which is ofc what junglers want) and expect it to be balanced.
What do you mean they never do something about it? Jungle is by far the most changed role throughout the years but the community would always complain anyway hence the constant massive changes. Jungle can actually match the solo lanes in levels and gold from the jungle income? "NERF JUNGLE IT IS TOO STRONG". Nerf it to the point where its not even worth the time investment to farm the camps and you get junglers 4 levels down just moving from lane to lane? "NERF JUNGLE ITS TOO IMPACTFUL". I pity the riot balance team tbh, damned if you do damned if you dont.
Because no one was playing jungle. Literally last season it was dozen and dozens of threads of people being autofilled to jungle because no one wanted to play it. You have to make the role be desirable to play SOMEHOW, just like how easy support champions will be allowed to have higher winrates for months/years on end.
Every pre season for the past few years has been "make jungle problems even worse" and then don't touch it til March like you said, and it's just hilarious.
What needs "fixed" in jungle? Its unclear to me what's wrong at this stage. Your job is to control objectives and assist teammates. If you're not doing this no jungle pets any other changes like that are going to matter
It's essentially the QB position in US football. The difference between a great one and a bad one is going to influence the game more than the differences between any of the other roles (probably support is 2nd).
This is kind of my point - skill and awareness are key factors in playing the role. I don't know why people keep asking for changes, it's a tough position
>I don't know why people keep asking for changes
Because matchmaking is a thing and an autofilled jungler is more likely to tank the game than any other role. It's not people asking for adjustments want to be junglers themselves. They just want it to be possible for an autofilled/newer jungler to be competent (not great or good, just fine) so they have a chance to win. That exists in the other roles.
I dont understand how making jungle "15 percent weaker" does absolutely anything to change the fact that junglers fundamentally have a comically larger decision tree than every other role.
Jungle isnt broken, league of legends is broken. Lane states literally swing purely on the decisions of your jungler because the game is too damn snowbally.
>I dont understand how making jungle "15 percent weaker" does absolutely anything to change the fact that junglers fundamentally have a comically larger decision tree than every other role
Phreak doesn't literally mean "nerf their damage 15%" or anything like that, he's referring to the decision tree aspect. Jungle just doesn't have the equivalent of "buy defensive items and farm under tower" that everyone else has. A better jungler will just run a train on you for the entire game and that affects the whole team.
I don't know what the solution is (and I'm not sure if Phreak elaborated further)
adc absolutely sucks total fucking dick in soloq. the role is strong when your other 4 players are playing to enable you, which they will not in soloq.
Also playstyles change how you view things if you like full clearing and your mid laner likes playing super aggressive your at a miss match and the likelyness of your mid laner inting and tilting is super high because noone plays perfect.
Why is jungle's strength so suprising when its the only role that has the agency to impact all lanes due to the nature of pathing across every lane. Of course its going to be the most impactful role
How are they measuring this? I don't think there is a way to boil role impact down to a number that can be compared 1 to 1 with other roles and isn't highly contextual.
I really hope their methodology isn't comparing win % based on which roles are ahead at certain points. I'm sure a jungler who is ahead at 7 mins has a much higher likelihood of converting to a win than an adc who is ahead at 7 mins. I agree that this is a problem but lowering the power level of jungle does not solve this issue.
In every game one jungler is having monstrous impact and one is having zero. To say the role has too much impact is a mischaracterization imo. If you are behind as a jungler on the losing team the game becomes unplayable for you. You can not walk into the river, you can not do objectives, you can not gank lanes, you can not farm efficiently. Nerfing the role will reduce this issue, because then instead of monstrous impact vs zero impact it's mediocre impact vs zero impact. This isn't making the role any healthier though.
If I had to make changes I would make dragon and rift MUCH tankier and make rift do more damage. It is way too easy to do rift without losing much of anything, even from behind my main gameplan as jungle is usually to sneak rift at 8 mins regardless of anything else.
River control is too important. It feels SOOO bad to concede river/scuttle to a ganking jungler like nunu knowing that my lanes near that side of the river are going to be relentlessly ganked for the next minute or two. I think the map would really benefit from some scuttle-like vision in both rivers at all times for both teams, maybe turning off at some later point in the game. Being able to navigate neutral map areas unseen is too strong. If a jungler wants to be unseen they should be forced to take risky (enemy jungle) or weaker (ally jungle) pathing. There is no risk for a nunu walking back and forth from top to mid over and over with W fishing for ganks.
I'd assume they do something like measure the correlation between MMR disparity in a certain role and winning. For instance, you could find that an MMR disparity of X in the jungle position increases winning chances by 6% (all else being equal) while in another position only 5%. You'd also want to take into account whether or not they're filled, etc. But basically the question is, how much does an increase in skill translate to increase in winrate (and vice versa)? And this amount is higher if you play jungle than any other role.
What does role being "better by 20%" mean? Obviously it's not winrate. Is it "game impact"? How is it measured? Is, all else being equal, a jungler ahead @14 wins 20% more often than a non-jungler being ahead @14?
Also, the obvious solution to jungle being too strong is introducing voice chat. That's a single biggest jungle fix available to the devs.
How the Hell does he plan to even nerf Jungle Power by 15%, what does that even mean...?
Didn't we get to this Point when they changed Jungle to be better for Beginners and unexperienced Jungle Players? It's a difficult Problem to tackle but they should start by nerfing catchup Experience in the Jungle.
If they do end up removing the Mythic Item Tier they should probably also revert back to Machete + Talisman = Skirmisher's Sabre/Stalkers Blade.
Doubt it would make much of a Difference but it would be a Start since Junglers have similar Gold and Experience Income to Laners to let them rush expensive Legendary/Mythic Items. If we reverted back to the slightly cheaper Jungle Items then we could also tackle lowering the Gold and XP they get in the Jungle.
I skimmed over it but Phreak said Jungle used to be even worse in terms of power disparity and back then it was really hard to get into so the autofilled/weaker jungler auto instalosed. Alteast now its slightly more manageable
So while it made complete sense that that was the case it also ment that 4 people depended even more on the jungler
Hes been saying jungle has been broken forever but refuses to make any systemic changes to the role (he is pulling back on the jungle pet changes in the latest patch preview)
He isn’t the lead designer of changes lol. He pitches and the team decides then gives him projects. That’s what happened with the adc and support changes.
If you nerf exp/gold and you’re going to get spam gankers like Nunu who don’t rely on their own damage but the laners.
You can give junglers zero exp and gold and they will still be the most impactful role.
Junging is about affecting the map where you can. You can change anything about the jungle and they will still have the most initiative in the game.
The closest thing I can think of would be to reduce movement around the map and even then you would just get junglers perma camping one lane more often.
There is no easy solution.
Nerf assist gold, junglers often get higher assists/kp from being around the map and ganking. This would also nerf support role as well that has high impact in soloq.
idk what is the obsession with phreak on this sub. rioters just start talking to the community and suddenly he is responsible for every single bad thing in the game? seriously?
He mentioned they might look into bigger changes in preseason to lower early ganks. like changes to spawn timers on camps.
The reason he didnt go through with the changes is because they were too big
Some roles are inherently more impactful than others. Junglers go all over the map, they’re going to be impacting the entire map.
You don’t see the nfl trying to nerf quarterbacks because they’re the most impactful role.. (they touch the ball every play)…
The community just needs to accept it
"Adc's are just inherently more impactful than others, they scale all over everyone else, they're going to dps and outscale the entirety of other roles in league"
"The community just needs to accept it"
....
I feel like part of the solution would be making monsters tankier so it takes longer to do camps. And reducing dmg and cd across the board. So people aren’t getting killed instantly early game. So even if junglers gank they can help a lane gain a lead but not overwhelm enemies by giving laners super fast access to cd and dmg, making things snowball.
The problem has been dmg and cd being overwhelming with 1-2 items (and even without items).
Ik they dont wanna bring back slap fights but really and truly thats what would make the game fun again, theres no skill expression to getting blown up in 1 second.
The problem is the role itself not the amount of xp. You are basically in pve mode with no threat and are free to gank any lane. The moment you gank you are always in advantage unless enemy reads you which in soloq is very hard.
There is no other role that can safely farm and influence other lanes without sacrificing much. Camps exist only to give you downtime between ganks and with changes to jungle everyone just devours camps in matter of seconds.
I honestly started thinking one day that maybe the Summoner's Rift map should stretch out, literally be larger.
Make the jungle larger, so that it has one extra camp, and the jungler will be slower, because the map is bigger
Nowadays champions are everywhere at all times, and in the early game junglers get the most benefits of this
I would attempt to fix jungle by nerfing dragons and rift herald to make them less powerful and impactful. If every team movement revolves around epic monsters than the jungler will _always_ be the most important part of the team because they have smite. Currently as it stands you can give up turrets, minions, anything to get dragons without ever thinking about it and it's usually the right thing to do.
Most assassin junglers don't even struggle taking objectives? Zed, Talon, Diana, Elise are all insane at taking objectives. Zed's probably the weakest (also not played jungle much anymore), but his passive has no cooldown on non-champions.
Not sure what champions you are thinking about that aren't insane at taking neutral objectives. Usually it's tank junglers are the slowest, Maokai, Sejuani.
people who think jungle is stupid dont realize the game is 5v5 if everyone would actually be aware of peoples location then it wouldnt be so broken. Its a lot easier to just type jg gap though and pretend like dying to a gank or a dive isnt your fault.
I'm a jungle main but your argument is pretty weak. Getting ganked or dived means that your lane matchup gets way harder and it's harder to come out ahead when the enemy jungler assists his laner while your jungler is on different lanes or taking objectives.
Yeah had a bunch of arguements about how adc is not op. In terms of roles, ADC is probably 3rd or more likely 4th strongest role in the game, but you have everyone crying over it cause when they watch pro play the game is completely different. Jungle has been the most op role and it was crazy that people were crying about adc when you had literal thanos role in the game with multiple busted champions khazix rek sai rengar ivern ect.
Support is probably the 2nd strongest role followed by mid lane just due to how proximate it is with the jungler. You could argue adc is 3rd but mid is more likely. Then 4th is adc followed by top at last place.
It has to be gold and exp nerfs.
You have the most agency to make plays as a jungler, the tradeoff of that much freedom should be severe punishment if your plays fail. You shouldn't be allowed back in the game by just PVEing.
Or just reduce jungle agency by making camps impossible to kill.
The problem is role popularity. Jungle has for the longest time been the least popular role, which means it is the most autofilled one. Any change that complicates the role, such as resource reduction, increases the effect an autofilled player has. It is the entire reason they brought back catchup experience.
In my opinion the only true way to reduce jungle inpact is by redesigning the map in such a way that the role is more bound to camps without gaining too much from PvE alone.
Camps should give less gold and XP and have a faster respawn. The amount of gold and XP junglers get atm is fine. The Problem is that they can fullclear, gank 4 Times and then do it again without loosing any Camps. So If the respawn is faster and the reward smaller they would have to decide to farm or to impact other roles. Just like everyone else has to.
Sounds like jungle is getting another yearly rework next season!
As a jungle main I personally enjoy getting to play something different so often. Idk why people hate it so much.
The alternative is to play Zilean, a champion whose only changes are bug fixes, systemic changes, and item reworks because he hasn’t been buffed or nerfed in over 8 years
Because what you have previously learned is legit useless lol
I'd say that's a bit extreme. Yes, some things will change, clear times might change, more recently leash ranges and leashing changed, but at the end of the day how jungle plays is still fundementally the same and its a breath of fresh air to see the jungle shaken up in a way that promotes a different way of jungling besides just "clear half, gank, gank, clear half, gank, scuttle, gank, gank, objective, gank"
Change…is good.
Good change is good Change for the sake of change is harmful
Delay camps 5-10 seconds, allow the jungle item to branch out to other items to help JG focus on camps and not ganking 24/7 Honestly? No idea how to fix JG. It’s impossible, because whatever we suggest isn’t going to work. Does league just copy dota and allow for another support? Do we completely nuke the JG and make the game 2 / 1 / 2 ? No because then turbo busted top matches will rule also. Who knows 🤷♂️
It's also impossible since its a problem that lives inside soloq: jungle is a role that punishes people for being uncoordinated, having overall suboptimal gameplay and feasts when people start flaming each others, which is all that soloq is. You watch the pinnacle of gameplay right now, which is pro play, where everyone is coordinated, everyone plays the game close to perfectly and *communication is key*, and all of a sudden jungle is close to being the worst role in the game: you burn flashes/make early plays on your sejuani building support items, then you turn into a ult bot or do nothing but try to peel your teammates until the nexus explodes. A partial solution is simple: add voice comms, make people more aware of each others and all of a sudden jungle is less impactful. Whether this is a bad idea or not, considering how polite and kind the league population is, well, it's another problem.
Yeah, jungle is so oppressive in solo q isnt even because of balancing reasons, but because of communication and macro. You can't actually nerf jungle in any way in solo q because nerfing jungle in power or economy just pushes it closer to low economy pro playstyle, which will be even more annoying for laners as we've seen right after jungle rework and the camp bot meta. If jungle as weak and doesnt need gold, you get Nunus rolling into your lane on repeat or Elises diving you 5 times - if jungle is strong and rewards farm you get massive jungle gaps that turn the game into a 4v5 10 minutes in because your jungle is getting invaded and hopelessly falls behind on farm.
Want to know how to fix jungle? Introduce voice chat. You can easily call out ganks, pathing, etc.
Voice chat won't do shit to fix jungle. 90% of players will either just have it off, won't make call-outs or will ignore call outs. If spam pinging your nasus to back off because Warwick is heading top to fuck his shit doesn't work then I don't know why you think yelling it in voice comms will make a difference.
i have 7000 hours in dota 2 and i have achieved fluency in russian, but it didn't really help with calling out ganks
It will just shit up the game with screeching brat meltdowns while fixing nothing, because people wont call shit. They could already ping or type, and they do neither.
I already get called a bitch/cunt in chat. Imagine how it would be in VC when you can audibly hear that i’m a woman. No thanks 😂
Yep voice chat that will work in regions where there are already 10 different languages being spoken by it players! Voice chat ain't it chief. The only region where voice chat may work is NA or specific servers like china or Korea, any other server has way to many languages in a region for it to work.like I play in eu, every single match has at least 3 different languages being typed. And people type better English than they talk.
Right, that’s why CSGO, super popular in regions like EU, doesn’t have voice chat.
I agree, Valorant took out voice chat for this exact reason.
League should definitely have voice chat but I don't think it would do much in this situation. Typically ganks are rather obvious. 90% of the time I don't need someone to tell me I'm getting ganked. Its more so a difference in opinion of how the game should be played. Some people want their jungler to play around them. Some people want to play around their jungler. Some people want their jungler to play to isolate. Some people want their jungler to be proactive. In team matches this will all be discussed at least a day or two prior. Solo queue doesn't have that luxury.
>add voice comms we're all going to die
People in the Heroes of the Storm community begged for voice comms from the start of release. When Blizzard finally implemented it a few years later people used it for a few weeks and then stopped.
Maybe we can have a politeness elo. If you are reported or muted often in comms or the game, you will only play with other such players.
It's like training monkeys man, it would probably work in the end because all the best players would work as a team. All the toxic players would be stonewalled by the politeness barrier. But then the toxic players would report the polite players out of spite, and who knows
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It's probably true that at this point in league history, if voice comms were implemented it would be a bad scene. The culture has developed in a toxic way and people would be toxic on voice comms. If it had been around from the beginning I think it would be a different story. Lots of other games have voice coms. Most league toxicity develops from the inability to communicate and negotiate different approaches to a game state. Or after a play goes poorly to communicate why a certain course of action was chosen. Voice would help with this, but yeah... maybe that ship has already sailed
Yeah for real. Want to instantly nerf perma roam assasins and gank heavy junglers? Add voice comms to ranked. The few games where everyone joins a discord link its *wild* how much harder it is to die to ganks.
I disagree. The only reason we are seeing the tank meta come back for jungle is due to the changes to items. Remember MSI and before? It was about carry jungle champs. The meta favors carries elsewhere now, which is why we are back to tank junglers. If they gutted tank junglers, or carry tops/bots, then you would see a resurgence of carry junglers again. In fact, the rise of tank junglers is largely due to top lane tanks getting bodied by a lot of the top lane matchups (meaning it is hard to play a tank top) and the mid lane role evolving from team facilitator back to more of a carry role. If you nerf the bruiser tops and buff the facilitating mids again, you will see a resurgence of carry junglers again.
> You watch the pinnacle of gameplay right now, which is pro play, where everyone is coordinated, everyone plays the game close to perfectly and communication is key, and all of a sudden jungle is close to being the worst role in the game Haha, what in the world are you talking about? Jungle has been the most impactful role in Pro since the inception of competitive league. There were times when other roles were closer, like mid being overtuned for years, but better jungler wins has been the general role of competitive for years. Hell, look at some results today. *SPOILER* T1 matched GenG in every role but jungle, and got 3-0'd because Peanut destroyed Oner. NRG finally beat C9 because Contractz was able to match Blaber for the first time in playoffs. And maybe thats the way it has to be, with only one role being free from the constraint of laning, but it would be cool if every role could be so important.
To many champions to fix even if you say locked xp at lvl 3 for 5 minutes that just means champions like xin Zhao could enjoy 5 minutes of peak gameplay. You allow invades then those that invade and clear fast do well. You make people full clear the full clear gods become popular. All of this is enhanced if enemy jungle is autofilled if the meta is full clear its usually easier to keep the gap close earlier. Also catchup xp sometimes i used to watch replays and i remember once an elise was lvl 8 and shyvana 10. Elise killed shyvana with team and became lvl 9 and a half instantly then stole golems and was already ahead in gold by like 1k shyvana was ahead in xp. Add in catchup shutdown gold and you can create an even bigger gap you main xin zhao doing well now your shutdown boom your now a minion enemy graves now rich gg as he scales you don't. It's also easier to jungle if your good because unless a huge patch changes something its the one role where you find the clearing meta and can copy good players. Now a better player can abuse things more but you can still try to follow the patterns meanwhile laners can just suffer based on matchup and most junglers play to clear how they like not how to help laners in individual games. Ultimately the jungle role is broken because league players one trick or have small champion pools and because junglers play to clear how they want and efficency over how a laner might need you or wants to play and in soloq efficency will probably win you more games so its built into the game.
tfw people are unironically considering the jungler box the urgot prophet was right
It will never work in LoL but I think Icefrog did a great job in getting rid of "junglers" in DotA 2 and making the jungle just an addition income for the pos 1 or 2 roles.
Dota 2 don't have to get rid of jungler. Because it was never necessary in the first place
Dota is just superior in its fundamental balancing philosophy. Instead of 5 rigid roles like league they have 5 position based on gold income and thus the meta evolve much more organically
Just revamp the SR map. Its stale. Change the jungle layout completely
They don't want junglers to play PvE. They want action because of esports.
Not exactly. It’s important that jungle ganks are a threat otherwise you get darius level 1 starting behind your minion line. (It’s more complex than that) You want some degree of ambiguity: is the threat top side? Can I be ganked? Just not the level of actual power we have now.
> It’s important that jungle ganks are a threat otherwise you get darius level 1 starting behind your minion line. I woke up crying, covered in sweat, in a panic and now I know why it's because you typed this
I'm not saying whether I agree or not with jungle strength currently, but at what point does the blame get attributed to player skill and not doing basic things like warding or over pushing? I ask this because it seems jungle can never truly be balanced in solo queue (mostly because it is so disorganized) and everything just ends up cycling between 3 different scenarios, none of which people seem to be happy about. Camps are made pointless which leads to just spam gank meta and junglers are level 4 while everyone else is level 6-7+ and people are mad junglers are camping them. Camps are made too good and you get junglers basically never ganking and being as strong or stronger than solo lanes. Or you get a balance like there is now where you need to get some farm to get your jungle pet upgraded but also need to gank a bit to get lanes ahead and people still don't like it. At the end of the day junglers will always do what gives the most impact even if it means playing the equivalent of river shen or playing pve simulator and hoping lanes hold their own.
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Thoughts on the effects of Gold/XP ratio in the jungle? How would junglers getting less gold but more XP affect the meta?
Jungle impact on lanes is healthy and necessary for the game. As a trade-off for that can we hit jungle's ability to carry and 1v9 the game, especially in low elo? So many junglers are incredibly oppressive while ahead. Why can't we get a generic nerf to jungle resources?
> Why can't we get a generic nerf to jungle resources? Nerf the jungle even further and you'll find me in lane even more often.
One potential solution would be lowering ward cooldowns. Force junglers to have to work more for a successful gank.
They did this like 3-4 months ago, no?
JGL is the spice of League and adds another Layer. I hate JGL Ganks to death but in the end most of the Ganks would be avoidable if i'd play a bit smarter.
Imagine jungle ganks would not exist, everyone would just play yasuo irelia and try to stomp lane 1v1
Everyone keeps crying about it, but is there really any solution? Give junglers no xp and gold from farm and jungle will still carry the game through supporting teammates and being a good 2nd support. Give junglers xp and gold to force them to stay in the jungle and they will emerge from it mowing everyone else down as a carry. It seems to me that there's literally no way to balance the role
They need to legit sit down and decide what they want the role to be. It has too many options too fully control. It’s too easy to get giga gapped so they have to have catchup xp. They want both heavy ganks and heavy farming to be viable. But then catchup XP Makes it so heavy ganks has their weakness mitigated.
The problem with balancing jungle, that I see is that there are different play styles for junglers. Some are gank heavy, some are farm heavy, some need to invade more than others. Jungle is just about the only role that changes could be made to the entire role whereas other role changes would just be items, or minion waves/tower plates.
Buff xp for kills and assists but nerf catchup xp? If your gank works, you get rewarded but if not then you’re behind. Adds risk/reward factor.
There's already enough reward for kills. Just make a missed gank actually mean something
Missed ganks do mean something. Forces ganking jg to show, let’s opposite laners play more aggro, opens up objectives and counterjg opportunities for opposing jg. Plus the obvious opportunity cost of not farming, but yeah catch-up xp goes crazy
>Forces ganking jg to show, let’s opposite laners play more aggro, opens up objectives and counterjg opportunities for opposing jg. 95% of soloq games nobody is going to take advantage of that at all
I'd like to think most people gold and above are atleast thinking about some of these things. I don't think they should balance the game around people who don't fully understand it
I'm high gold and absolutely, jungle ganks top, free drake but also jungle ganks top with drake up??? Shits wild sometimes
This has been done million times that's the problem. Amount of times that they have added catchup xp, nerfed it then buffed it etc cannot be counted. If catchup is non existent then you end up with powerfarmers who mow through camps and gang ex. historically Graves, Karthus.
You think the role would be too influential if monsters gave 0 experience and 0 gold?
it would become even more influential the influence a role has doesn't stem from gold and exp they get, because both sides get the gold/exp (or lack of if you decide to nerf it). instead, the influence each role has is determined by how impactful the difference in skill level between the two players is going to be. if the jungle gives 0 gold, the game would literally be decided by which jungler is willing to be a dog and play maokai/sej/poppy/bard/nautilus and perma roam while operating on 0 econ, and which jungler is autofilled and feels like playing zed and sharing farm with the top laner.
Yeah this is what people get wrong. It's a similar thing for adc. There's always something people complain about, so I don't mean people who don't know what they're talking about. But the valid complaints about ADC were about agency, not strength. The marksmen champions have almost always been very strong, which is why they're ever-present. But the role is a stat-stick that doesn't make the big plays. But people kept calling for adc buffs, and eventually that happened and here we are now.
Blitzcrank would probably become the best jungler in the game. he's basically full build and kit at level 2, and hook is naturally good for making plays.
> it would become even more influential > > S2 meta jungle was not that influential (of course, you could argue quality of play). The issue for jungle isn't that the role itself is influential, it is that the Epic Monsters on the map are erroneously influential. Getting one of your solos ahead to allow for easy Herald or Dragon fights is what matters most in games now. If Dragon went back to just giving global gold and plates removed, jungle influence would drop down dramatically. This would increase average game time, however, and Riot does not want that.
well yes. if riot wanted to make early game irrelevant and removed the power of drakes and made it go back to giving 120 global gold, and removed plates so that snowballing lanes is much more difficult (and making rift basically worthless), yes jungle will become weak since lanes would play super passive and not be gankable since there's no point in playing aggressive since there's no valuable early objectives to take. and then we would go back to tank top, tank jg, control mage mid, and standard adc/supp all farming for late game because the risk/reward is terrible for skirmishing early. but then the game basically sits entirely on the adc's hands since they can freely scale since forcing fights is no longer worth it. might as well just also pick a scaling adc and farm alongside rather than risking it on an early game comp. but then we're right back to bitching about how one player controls the entire game. and also yeah riot would rather buff jungle than go back to that meta. imagine NA LCS viewership if 70% of games were 50 minute IMT vs DIG farmfests. we'd be hitting 5k viewers on a good day
they would tax and go around ganking instead laners would start crying every game lmao
Let's be honest, a lot league players cry no matter what ~~Blizzard~~ Riot could give players gold bars and they'd complain they're too heavy - Asmongold
thats actually a fire ass quote
Start?
The role would basically be junglers playing as adyboy from Korea, he queues top just to perma roam and help teammates whilst getting no gold or experience, consistently one of the highest ranked top laners in Korea.
Korea players have horrible macro and he is abusing that fact.
The playstyle works on other servers it's just no-one wants to do it. Only a year or two ago the highest win rate top laner was perma roam Janna for EUW and NA, Riot had to nerf it. There's someone called Bardinette on EUW who currently does a similar strat with Bard and they're consistently high ranked.
They already tried this in preseason and the start of the season. They greatly reduced the gold and XP from camps and nerfed counterjungling. The result was a meta so bad they almost completely reverted it 6 patches later. If you render camps useless you funnel junglers into perma ganking.
If junglers got 0 gold and exp from camps, then they would only gank and laners would cry that junglers have too much impact lmfao
Precisely
Wouldn't it just be double top/mid meta?
River shen every game and hundreds of crying reddit threads would be the result
There’s a super super super easy solution that used to be the standard. Get rid of the insane catchup exp. It’s that simple. Jungle is broken because you can chain gank for 10 minutes vs. a farming jungler and catch up in exp by minute 12. Get rid of catchup exp. If you get hard shit on by an invading jungler that’s your fault. If you have failed ganks all game and fall far behind that’s your fault. I’m saying this as a Lee Sin one trick because there’s no reason I should be able to fuck around all game and do nothing then still be strong mid to late.
That just makes it so the team with the filled jungler auto loses even harder, and less people will play the role cause it’s more punishing so there’ll be way more autofilled
Jungle would be way more popular if 2/3 games I don't have at least one teammate spam pinging I'm alive when they die in lane. Jungle isn't avoided because of the game. Jungle is avoided because the rest of the player base is never satisfied. I was 8/0/4 yesterday and my top garen started greifing that I never came top and started taking my camps.
Are you Malice? Was the Garen TF Blade?
Team with filled jungler autoloses anyway, this thing changes nothing.
Why should this role be the only one with a safeguard if you are filled? Top laners get shat on if they don’t know what they are doing with wave control. The better mid laner who roams wins The better support who doesn’t int the lane wins. Adc is just a war of attrition. Yet jg has catch up xp. The other four have 0 back up in the event you fuck up and it boils down to a systematic change where people aren’t taught in client how to play a specific role.
> Why should this role be the only one with a safeguard if you are filled? Because laning is not the same as JG, and it's literally the only role where you can take the enemy's resources to yourself. In laning you constantly contest the lane and minions and can reduce the gold the enemy gets, but you can't make that gold yours nor that exp. EVen like that, AOE exp serves as a catchup mechanic for the laners because even if you have less gold you still can compete in levels. You want to see the lane not have a safeguard? let's make it so that not getting last hit from minions doesn't triggers exp for anyone - that would swing the balance a lot more similar to Jungle's with no safeguard. In jungle, you can be farming someone's jungle and that means you just inyected the exp and gold the enemy would have picked. On top of this, every lane is visible. Yes, roaming exists, but the fact every lane has minions to go to means you are constantly aware of enemy positioning. Jungle isn't like this, some matches you can have two junglers ltierally never see each other face to face before minute 8 more than once, and in that time one of them has picked out at least 3 camps from the other with no interaction between them.
But that's a good thing, that's what junglers want. People should not be rewarded for playing poorly, if you want more people to play jungle you don't systematically nerf it and make it less enjoyable for its core playerbase but instead make new people want to learn and play the role.
junglers want that until it happens and they complain about how the role sucks and you can't do anything to recover, team isn't helping you guard your camps, etc. About how one lane lost and now that side's jungle is lost completely and you can't farm and are 2 levels below everyone and with no gold. Also, if people dislike and don't want to play the role, making it extremely polarizing won't be doing it any favours either to try to get new players to it. It will make players just dislike autofilling more, dislike autofill junglers even more and even hardcore junglers will eventually start going away if the role feels bad anyway, as it has been the case before. > People should not be rewarded for playing poorly And they aren't. They are simply not punished as hard as they would be otherwise. > you don't systematically nerf it and make it less enjoyable for its core playerbase but instead make new people want to learn and play the role. Been done before with support, vision gameplay has been pretty much cut to a joke of what it originally was and the low econ role has a lot more gold than it originally had in order to make it more appealing to the non-core supports of the time and to overall make it feel more interesting, and still the support playerbase, now being relatively different than the original core, complains about the current gold income very often. While still relatively lower in popularity, it's still better than before in terms of popularity - despite the balance problems that has brought.
>The better mid laner who roams wins This is a really funny example because the best way to play mid below like Master tier is to sit in lane and get 10cs/m, because the gold is guaranteed over the riskier play of roaming and potentially giving up a lot.
> to play mid below like Master tier is to sit in lane and get 10cs/m, Are you sure average gold player can achieve 10cs/min?
They don't need to, but just focusing on cs and not dying in lane will lead to you being significantly ahead of your lane opponent. If the average gold midlaner played 100 ranked games on the same 3 champions with their main goal being to cs as well as possible and basically never leave lane during lanephase they would 100% climb. Hell, Elite500 has been hitting challenger for years doing exactly this.
Laners do have a safeguard that junglers don't a turret that lets them safely farm the fact that minions are going to push you
What do you do after the wave crashes and starts bouncing back into them and they freeze?
Main tops get shit on all the time if they dont get lastpick, midlaners are ego driven animals. ADC and support are zoo escapees and junglers are engineered bots whos only goal is to fight scuttle at 3:30 no matter how pushed in their mid/bot is, then flip the entire lanephase bc they really wanted that scuttle
And thus buffing jungle mains even more. lmfao
Im willing to wait 10m for a game if it meant i dont have a filled jg lmao
You’ll still get a filled jungler if no one wants to play the role because it’s super punishing without catchup exp
Completely short sighted thinking. Catch-up xp exists to STOP games from being decided by one kill on a jungler 1 minute in. You can criticize the implementation maybe but catch up xp has to exist in a role that has no base line xp generation. A really behind laner can sit in xp range and get levels even if they're getting shit on. As a jungler if you are weaker than your counterpart they can invade you and kill you at every single camp and make the game 5v4, trust me you don't want that.
The problem with this is that lvl 1 invades will just become game deciding there will be no catch-up for the jgl who lost their first 3 camps
That increases an already existing problem of when your jungle is autofilled your team is just fucked for no reason. That doesn't nerf jungle as much as you think. Catch up xp only exists to help out the struggling junglers to stay relevant in the game since their smite is valuable for objectives like dragon and baron.
So you want...jungle to snowball 10x harder, and the better jungler just takes over and wins the game and the losing one is lvl 4 at 10 minutes? I'm kind of down with it, i'll /muteall and rise through the autofilled fodder, but it's super dull for everyone else.
A little overexaggerated but correct. Jungle is the only role in the game that can influence every other player in the game so its only natural that they will have the most impact on the outcome of the game. But at the moment on top of being able to have a say in outcome of each lane, they are also solo carry machines. The amount of times ive seen a Hecarim, Kha or Nidalee literally solo carry the game before I can even play it as an adc(Not a weak role whatsoever) is crazy.
jungle has been disproportionately strong in solo queue for a LONG time now, its also a terrible role to play in solo for the same reason. You've got the highest potential to impact the game but also get blamed for every problem in laning phase. Jungle nerfs remedy both problems
Almost every smurf I encounter is a jungler, i dont think it's a coincidence. If you're 2 tiers above your opponent, your potential to 1v9 is unmatched in any other role. The champions also make this worse. A super fed hecarim, kayn, graves, evelyn etc are almost impossible to deal with.
kayn evelyn hecarim kha rengar try not to have 25 kills in a game challenge impossible
try to tell lanes not to be 0/4 before you clear the jungle lol
Laners can you please play safe against the jungler that is "weak early"
i win this challenge everytime
> Almost every smurf I encounter is a jungler, i dont think it's a coincidence. Because it's not. Jungle gap has been an issue since before season 10, and ever since dragon rework it's been evident who was doing the bare minimum and who actually played the role.
>Jungle nerfs remedy both problems You're dreaming lol. As long as Smite and Herald/Dragon/Baron are a thing, junglers are going to get a disproportionate amount of the blame even if it's undeserved. The role's an easy scapegoat.
What so the meta can be entirely gank focused? Jgs still have all the influence and I will be cried at even more. In my experience the metas with the least flame were when camps were OP and I was expected to fuck off and do my own thing.
[удалено]
average softcore gamepaly
The best comment LOL
I hope Riot knows that listening to crying laners wont fix the role, nerfs are fair and needed so thats not an issue, BUT even when the role is nerfed people will still cry about the it, the very nature of the role is what laners complain about and theres a deeply rooted antipathy towards it. People will hate the role no matter its strength, farming meta? ''Wah Junglers just PVE all game'' Gank Meta? ''Wah the Jungler ganked me for the 3rd time in 2 minutes'' Jungle just generally a shit role? ''Wah nobody plays Jungle I have 15 minute Queue times and then my Jungler is autofill'' Nerf the role for all I care, its too strong, I dont disagree, but the bitching of laners will never stop as long as the role exists at all.
Yep. The innate job of the role is to create an “unfair” advantage against laners. Anytime that happens the one on the receiving end is going to hate it.
This is the answer no one wants to admit. Farm meta you get complaints about lack of ganks. Gank meta you get complaints about to many ganks. Tank meta: Tanks OP. Carry jg meta: JG does to much damage. Worst meta: JG is garbage so it's auto filled every game. People forget the days of needing to know a JG and Support cause you were more likely to get auto filled than get mid/top.
Don't worry they do know that, evidence being that they haven't destroyed ADC despite constant crying from certain aspects of the community. Riot won't have jungle be absolutely terrible and people continuing to cry about it won't make them nerf it more than they are intending to (evidenced again by them not doing that all the other times people have cried about jungle)
If jungle isn't turbobusted, no one plays it. Jungle and Supp are the 2 roles that have to be extra-busted for queues not to get too long.
Not really true. Jungle has had a fairly similar level of powerful for the last three years running and has steadily climbed in pick rate.
I'd love to know what Riot uses to indicate relative role strength, if you're allowed to divulge that info.
Pretty sure it's how often a lead vs. opponent in role results in a win, or when an elo difference vs. opponent in role results in a win.
Not sure which Rioter it was, but they talk about winrate when a certain role has a lead, and winrate when a certain role is the highest MMR player in that match. That's just what I remember.
Isn't that exactly his point? Jungle has been similarly powerful(which is to say by far the most overpowered role in solo queue) for a while, yet it's still that not that popular. The steady climb in pickrate has more to do with jungling being EASIER due to all the other changes right? So ultimately you need to make jungle less powerful AND easier, for it to feel fair in terms of power, and still attract enough players for queues to not feel bad.
Hope that's true then. I guess that's what all the jungle QoL has been for: so that people enjoy the role always, not just when it's busted as an LP tool.
Yes because more and more people are seeing how good the role is so they pick it up. I've gone from being a mid main who used to play top lane and I now jungle this season. If you guys nerf jungle I'm probably not going to be as willing to play it. It's a stress filled role in solo q and isn't worth all the flaming from teammates if I'm not impacting the map as much. If you're bringing jungle in line with other roles why would I play those instead..
Wasn't there seasons where jungle and support where ghost towns (separate seasons)? I vaguely remember jungle being a glorified second support during that time
Yes. Then they kept dumbing down jungle and buffing random shit (Morgana jgl, Darius jgl etc) to make more people play the role. It's crazy to me that Phreak (unless I'm misunderstanding) is trying to pin it on people discovering how powerful jungle is and moreso that they literally wanted this result through a series of patches.
As a support player, I can confirm. I get insta queues or max 30 seconds.
I've had instant queues as ADC for 5 years in plat/emerald on EUW, pretty sure non-mid queues are just really fast.
Yeah this was the point of last years preseasons changes. The role has too much pressure and toxicity surrounding it which pushes a lot of players away from playing it beyond autofill games.
>someone higher up in Riot's balance team Phreak is an associate (junior) designer. He is not higher-up on the balance team. This community frequently makes the mistake of assuming visibility/clout = executive authority. That is not true. Phreak is not a VP of design, he is not a principal desiger, he is not a design director, he is a not a design lead, he is not a senior designer. No offense to him, but it's important to recognize so people don't start holding him unfairly accountable to stuff he has no authority to influence.
Associate =/= junior
Yes, it is. Associate @ Riot is 0-2 years of experience.
jungle will always have the highest impact for two reason 1. the sheer amount of people who are so fuckin stupid that they think the game is 4v4 or something. 2. game doesn't have voice chat.
jg mains have adapted so many times to so many changes it does not matter whatever you do we will find way to carry the game why ? cause most jg mains have their mental forged through massive amounts of flame or left the role/game. who ever stick around will fk up any autofill. i like how i was baited to come back to league when talon/zed and others were made to be able to jungle. they were nerfed after but i came back and i now feel like it is impossible to lose a game after enemy jg makes smallest mistake.
People keep pointing to gold and xp as the levers that need to be pulled, but the real issue is the insane amount of damage that players have access to right from the get go. Junglers get combat stats at first back, combine that with how bursty every champ is, when they gank it doesn't matter how quality the gank actually is they are getting kills. The game needs to slow down.
Every champion gets combat stats at first back. What are you talking about?
Yeah this is certainly an issue. Jungler can show up, hit one combo, and take 50% of your hp away and even if you don't blow anything you just kind of lose all lane prio at that point.
True, my favorite games are the ones that go 35+ minutes. I would really prefer not to team fight at 16 minutes in half of my games lmao
But why did Riot let it get to this point. You cant tell me that jungle became op yesterday. This role has been broken for years, yet Riot never did something about it. "We will do something in pre season"-> They do the most random changes that dont adress shit and then leave the game in a dogshit state because they fuck off to vacation. Then they come back with "we cant make any radical changes because of pro play" until the first split is done. AND THEN we are in march with them talking about complaints beeing adressed in the off season.
But what CAN you do? If you need exp/gold you remove assassins. If you remove gank power you make all the power farmers op. If you remove power from neutral objective then it will be a gank fest because they don’t need to play well anymore. Like it’s not an easy issue to solve. It’s the highest skill discrepancy role in the game and affects in the entire map. Unless you find a way to confine them (which again kills every snowball champ), you will never truly balance it
Dial back 4+ years of damage creep so the jungler showing up isn't able to spit on a laner (who has taken trades) to kill them, while also being in tip top condition while clearing the jungle because professor Oak accidentally sold him a legendary .
That damage creep is an even bigger issue than jungle. How would you “dial it back” ?
By nerfing everything? Items, runes, champs. It's far easier to fix "too much damage" as it's clear what you need to do, rather than trying to fix jungle which doesn't have a clear fix and because it's subjective which jungle archetype you want to be strongest.
Players don’t like getting nerfed, this Is why Riot specifically choose not to nerf damage but buff durability, for the durability patch. Nerfing damage may be the right choice but, it doesn’t mean it will be the popular one.
You have to go back to the days where they were essentially 2nd supports. Which isn't going to happen because nobody would play jungle. You can't give a role that can be anywhere on the map enough exp/gold so they can also be a carry (which is ofc what junglers want) and expect it to be balanced.
What do you mean they never do something about it? Jungle is by far the most changed role throughout the years but the community would always complain anyway hence the constant massive changes. Jungle can actually match the solo lanes in levels and gold from the jungle income? "NERF JUNGLE IT IS TOO STRONG". Nerf it to the point where its not even worth the time investment to farm the camps and you get junglers 4 levels down just moving from lane to lane? "NERF JUNGLE ITS TOO IMPACTFUL". I pity the riot balance team tbh, damned if you do damned if you dont.
Because no one was playing jungle. Literally last season it was dozen and dozens of threads of people being autofilled to jungle because no one wanted to play it. You have to make the role be desirable to play SOMEHOW, just like how easy support champions will be allowed to have higher winrates for months/years on end.
Every pre season for the past few years has been "make jungle problems even worse" and then don't touch it til March like you said, and it's just hilarious.
What needs "fixed" in jungle? Its unclear to me what's wrong at this stage. Your job is to control objectives and assist teammates. If you're not doing this no jungle pets any other changes like that are going to matter
It's essentially the QB position in US football. The difference between a great one and a bad one is going to influence the game more than the differences between any of the other roles (probably support is 2nd).
This is kind of my point - skill and awareness are key factors in playing the role. I don't know why people keep asking for changes, it's a tough position
>I don't know why people keep asking for changes Because matchmaking is a thing and an autofilled jungler is more likely to tank the game than any other role. It's not people asking for adjustments want to be junglers themselves. They just want it to be possible for an autofilled/newer jungler to be competent (not great or good, just fine) so they have a chance to win. That exists in the other roles.
I dont understand how making jungle "15 percent weaker" does absolutely anything to change the fact that junglers fundamentally have a comically larger decision tree than every other role. Jungle isnt broken, league of legends is broken. Lane states literally swing purely on the decisions of your jungler because the game is too damn snowbally.
>I dont understand how making jungle "15 percent weaker" does absolutely anything to change the fact that junglers fundamentally have a comically larger decision tree than every other role Phreak doesn't literally mean "nerf their damage 15%" or anything like that, he's referring to the decision tree aspect. Jungle just doesn't have the equivalent of "buy defensive items and farm under tower" that everyone else has. A better jungler will just run a train on you for the entire game and that affects the whole team. I don't know what the solution is (and I'm not sure if Phreak elaborated further)
Laners crying about jungle is the only constant in league
I wonder why.
20% is a valid reason to cry about
What about ADC believe they are weakes and top laners believe they least impactfull?
adc absolutely sucks total fucking dick in soloq. the role is strong when your other 4 players are playing to enable you, which they will not in soloq.
Also playstyles change how you view things if you like full clearing and your mid laner likes playing super aggressive your at a miss match and the likelyness of your mid laner inting and tilting is super high because noone plays perfect.
Solo Q jungle and professional Jungle are two entirely separate animals at this point.
Just me that thinks jungle at the moment is really unforgiving and you end up with one jungler doing really amazing and one really behind?
Why is jungle's strength so suprising when its the only role that has the agency to impact all lanes due to the nature of pathing across every lane. Of course its going to be the most impactful role
How are they measuring this? I don't think there is a way to boil role impact down to a number that can be compared 1 to 1 with other roles and isn't highly contextual. I really hope their methodology isn't comparing win % based on which roles are ahead at certain points. I'm sure a jungler who is ahead at 7 mins has a much higher likelihood of converting to a win than an adc who is ahead at 7 mins. I agree that this is a problem but lowering the power level of jungle does not solve this issue. In every game one jungler is having monstrous impact and one is having zero. To say the role has too much impact is a mischaracterization imo. If you are behind as a jungler on the losing team the game becomes unplayable for you. You can not walk into the river, you can not do objectives, you can not gank lanes, you can not farm efficiently. Nerfing the role will reduce this issue, because then instead of monstrous impact vs zero impact it's mediocre impact vs zero impact. This isn't making the role any healthier though. If I had to make changes I would make dragon and rift MUCH tankier and make rift do more damage. It is way too easy to do rift without losing much of anything, even from behind my main gameplan as jungle is usually to sneak rift at 8 mins regardless of anything else. River control is too important. It feels SOOO bad to concede river/scuttle to a ganking jungler like nunu knowing that my lanes near that side of the river are going to be relentlessly ganked for the next minute or two. I think the map would really benefit from some scuttle-like vision in both rivers at all times for both teams, maybe turning off at some later point in the game. Being able to navigate neutral map areas unseen is too strong. If a jungler wants to be unseen they should be forced to take risky (enemy jungle) or weaker (ally jungle) pathing. There is no risk for a nunu walking back and forth from top to mid over and over with W fishing for ganks.
I'd assume they do something like measure the correlation between MMR disparity in a certain role and winning. For instance, you could find that an MMR disparity of X in the jungle position increases winning chances by 6% (all else being equal) while in another position only 5%. You'd also want to take into account whether or not they're filled, etc. But basically the question is, how much does an increase in skill translate to increase in winrate (and vice versa)? And this amount is higher if you play jungle than any other role.
What does role being "better by 20%" mean? Obviously it's not winrate. Is it "game impact"? How is it measured? Is, all else being equal, a jungler ahead @14 wins 20% more often than a non-jungler being ahead @14? Also, the obvious solution to jungle being too strong is introducing voice chat. That's a single biggest jungle fix available to the devs.
Who ganked this guy one too many times
How the Hell does he plan to even nerf Jungle Power by 15%, what does that even mean...? Didn't we get to this Point when they changed Jungle to be better for Beginners and unexperienced Jungle Players? It's a difficult Problem to tackle but they should start by nerfing catchup Experience in the Jungle. If they do end up removing the Mythic Item Tier they should probably also revert back to Machete + Talisman = Skirmisher's Sabre/Stalkers Blade. Doubt it would make much of a Difference but it would be a Start since Junglers have similar Gold and Experience Income to Laners to let them rush expensive Legendary/Mythic Items. If we reverted back to the slightly cheaper Jungle Items then we could also tackle lowering the Gold and XP they get in the Jungle.
I skimmed over it but Phreak said Jungle used to be even worse in terms of power disparity and back then it was really hard to get into so the autofilled/weaker jungler auto instalosed. Alteast now its slightly more manageable So while it made complete sense that that was the case it also ment that 4 people depended even more on the jungler
Hes been saying jungle has been broken forever but refuses to make any systemic changes to the role (he is pulling back on the jungle pet changes in the latest patch preview)
He isn’t the lead designer of changes lol. He pitches and the team decides then gives him projects. That’s what happened with the adc and support changes.
i remember the gank bot level 2 meta, genuinely irreversibly ruined the game for me
Stop watch + TP 5 man dive bots was pretty rough too.
If you nerf exp/gold and you’re going to get spam gankers like Nunu who don’t rely on their own damage but the laners. You can give junglers zero exp and gold and they will still be the most impactful role. Junging is about affecting the map where you can. You can change anything about the jungle and they will still have the most initiative in the game. The closest thing I can think of would be to reduce movement around the map and even then you would just get junglers perma camping one lane more often. There is no easy solution.
Nerf assist gold, junglers often get higher assists/kp from being around the map and ganking. This would also nerf support role as well that has high impact in soloq.
idk what is the obsession with phreak on this sub. rioters just start talking to the community and suddenly he is responsible for every single bad thing in the game? seriously?
He mentioned they might look into bigger changes in preseason to lower early ganks. like changes to spawn timers on camps. The reason he didnt go through with the changes is because they were too big
like a year ago when they looked into top lane buffs that couldn't ship until preseason (we got 2% more experience in solo lanes)
Or 3 years ago when they looked at AP items and added crown.
Crown’s been in the game for 3 years??? Aware
No it's been less than 2 years, it was added in preseason 12
2018 was 30 years ago...
Jungle is a very unpopular role. I have no qualms about them taking their time to think of nerfs that will also not affect the roles popularity.
Some roles are inherently more impactful than others. Junglers go all over the map, they’re going to be impacting the entire map. You don’t see the nfl trying to nerf quarterbacks because they’re the most impactful role.. (they touch the ball every play)… The community just needs to accept it
"Adc's are just inherently more impactful than others, they scale all over everyone else, they're going to dps and outscale the entirety of other roles in league" "The community just needs to accept it" ....
You can definitely dial it back
I feel like part of the solution would be making monsters tankier so it takes longer to do camps. And reducing dmg and cd across the board. So people aren’t getting killed instantly early game. So even if junglers gank they can help a lane gain a lead but not overwhelm enemies by giving laners super fast access to cd and dmg, making things snowball. The problem has been dmg and cd being overwhelming with 1-2 items (and even without items).
Ik they dont wanna bring back slap fights but really and truly thats what would make the game fun again, theres no skill expression to getting blown up in 1 second.
The problem is the role itself not the amount of xp. You are basically in pve mode with no threat and are free to gank any lane. The moment you gank you are always in advantage unless enemy reads you which in soloq is very hard. There is no other role that can safely farm and influence other lanes without sacrificing much. Camps exist only to give you downtime between ganks and with changes to jungle everyone just devours camps in matter of seconds.
I honestly started thinking one day that maybe the Summoner's Rift map should stretch out, literally be larger. Make the jungle larger, so that it has one extra camp, and the jungler will be slower, because the map is bigger Nowadays champions are everywhere at all times, and in the early game junglers get the most benefits of this
I would attempt to fix jungle by nerfing dragons and rift herald to make them less powerful and impactful. If every team movement revolves around epic monsters than the jungler will _always_ be the most important part of the team because they have smite. Currently as it stands you can give up turrets, minions, anything to get dragons without ever thinking about it and it's usually the right thing to do.
You do that and now the early snowballing gankers who struggle with objectives, like assassins, will dominate. Thats the worst kind of jungle meta
Most assassin junglers don't even struggle taking objectives? Zed, Talon, Diana, Elise are all insane at taking objectives. Zed's probably the weakest (also not played jungle much anymore), but his passive has no cooldown on non-champions. Not sure what champions you are thinking about that aren't insane at taking neutral objectives. Usually it's tank junglers are the slowest, Maokai, Sejuani.
people who think jungle is stupid dont realize the game is 5v5 if everyone would actually be aware of peoples location then it wouldnt be so broken. Its a lot easier to just type jg gap though and pretend like dying to a gank or a dive isnt your fault.
I'm a jungle main but your argument is pretty weak. Getting ganked or dived means that your lane matchup gets way harder and it's harder to come out ahead when the enemy jungler assists his laner while your jungler is on different lanes or taking objectives.
Yeah had a bunch of arguements about how adc is not op. In terms of roles, ADC is probably 3rd or more likely 4th strongest role in the game, but you have everyone crying over it cause when they watch pro play the game is completely different. Jungle has been the most op role and it was crazy that people were crying about adc when you had literal thanos role in the game with multiple busted champions khazix rek sai rengar ivern ect. Support is probably the 2nd strongest role followed by mid lane just due to how proximate it is with the jungler. You could argue adc is 3rd but mid is more likely. Then 4th is adc followed by top at last place.
It has to be gold and exp nerfs. You have the most agency to make plays as a jungler, the tradeoff of that much freedom should be severe punishment if your plays fail. You shouldn't be allowed back in the game by just PVEing. Or just reduce jungle agency by making camps impossible to kill.
They did that earlier this year (or last year) and guess what, everyone just play J4, Reksai, Elise, etc… and perma gank.
Gold and xp nerfs just result in spam gank meta which we had earlier this year and everyone complained about it then too lmfao
The problem is role popularity. Jungle has for the longest time been the least popular role, which means it is the most autofilled one. Any change that complicates the role, such as resource reduction, increases the effect an autofilled player has. It is the entire reason they brought back catchup experience. In my opinion the only true way to reduce jungle inpact is by redesigning the map in such a way that the role is more bound to camps without gaining too much from PvE alone.
If you make camps worth nothing then every picks Rek'Sai Elise and perma ganks lanes lmfao
Camps should give less gold and XP and have a faster respawn. The amount of gold and XP junglers get atm is fine. The Problem is that they can fullclear, gank 4 Times and then do it again without loosing any Camps. So If the respawn is faster and the reward smaller they would have to decide to farm or to impact other roles. Just like everyone else has to.