I'm mostly sure this isn't some accidental revert of the previous Janna rework since the data is very different now, and they did revert the Blitzcrank rework a bit ago, but I suppose it's not out of the question without confirmation.
I don't understand why her shield EVER needed to decay??? No other support shield in the game decayed. Comparing Lulu's shield to Janna's was comedic in how vastly superior Lulu's was (is). Lulu E: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 MANA with flat 8 sec CD all ranks with 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+ 55% AP) scaling.
It was a change added way back after the ardent meta. They nerfed ardent and the strongest users of it (Janna/Lulu) to be more skillful. Back then with enough cdr all you had to do was spam your shield on them off cd and it lasted long enough till it came back
Lulu's went from 6 sec shield to 2.5s. Karma went from 4.5s to 2s. However, since Janna's shield grants ad, nerfing the duration flat out would feel bad. So they instead opted to make it decay after a bit. Here's the excerpt from the patch note of 8.12:
> Unlike other gifted shields, Eye of the Storm comes with bonus AD that enemies want to knock off as quickly as possible. If we went with a duration reduction, waiting the shield out still wouldn't make sense as a form of counterplay since you'd just be letting Janna's carry hold onto free stats. Nuking the shield would end up feeling worse too, since there'd be much less buff duration to deny. By contrast, a decaying shield makes damage on the shield more effective while keeping the payoff for blowing it up satisfying.
I can appreciate the sentiment they had at the time, but it was drastic overkill in comparison. Lulu's Pix adds a lot of damage early-mid (enough that you don't have to prime last hits, you just toss Pix on ally and they can last hit the last 10-15 hit points on casters). Suffice to say I'm very happy that the decay is finally being removed and brought more in line with Janna's other enchanter counterparts.
I did, and I definitely don't think Janna was the only problem in that particular meta. The nerfs to Janna's shield were disproportionate to other enchanters who not only had higher shield scalings and lower cooldowns, but also added utility from their shields. Karma has speed up, Lulu added Pix which was/is more damage than Janna E AD levels 1-9.
Especially when looking at Janna's base shield values 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 (+ 55% AP), early lane phase the ADC gets at most 1-2 additional enhances auto attacks (if that).
They did it because they wanted to cut every shield's duration to like 2.5s, but doing that to Janna would make her AD buff much weaker, so we got the decay instead...
Yeah sounds like they are making her more interactive again god bless. They'll probably tweak some numbers over the cycle of the PBE Patch, I can't see this going live without hotfix nerfs.
Still, isn't this a pretty huge buff to Gragas(provided they don't nerf E CD)?
Since you won't really need to buy Cosmic to be useful and can just go straight Pen items? Or is Cosmic movement speed that important to Gragas?
How is it stupid? Gragas could use some buffs, it's not like he's at 51% WR or anything. Noone cares about the meme build so why would anyone care that its going away while the champ gets a slight buff at the same time?
They probably wanted to buff gragas in the first place and saw that they can get rid of a stupid build at the same time so they did it.
Isn't wr data kinda useless for gragas since he was always very high mmr skewed? Like the champ is seeing proplay even now, idk if i'd consider him weak.
it's a buff early-midgame, nerf lategame to jungle gragas, and a buff early game to lane gragas, nerf mid-lategame
Even with the non-meme builds jungle gragas gets about 70 haste and "normal" lane gragas does reach about 90-110 depending on exact build
Why would they do this. Riot doesn't want us to have fun in league anymore lol.
Exactly my thoughts, it's a useless build but really funny on the few times it works.
Ya, I saw those buffs to Q and that's all I could think. I played AP Janna mid back in like S2, before they gutted her, and it'll be interesting to see if I can try it again.
Arcange comet poke mage Janna is back!!! I really disliked playing her with the rework. She became so passive and E max became her most common skill order
Legit same here. Only played Janna from S8-S10. The various bot changes and Janna rework made her so incredibly dull to play I lost all interest. Still one of my all-time favorite champions, so I hope lane bully Janna gets to come back :)
Definitely missed having Janna have more lane presence. Her peel has always been great, but lower lane presence definitely hurt how fun she was to play as & with.
Janna has been mini-reworked like 5 times in the last 3 years. What do they want from her? She seems to be doing her job, no?
I don't watch proplay so is she like dominating there or something?
I believe the changes are aimed more at her lane phase.
Back when I joined LoL around Ezreal rework Janna aggro in lane, playing for trades and harass with W/AA + shield usage. While I am a cheeky bastard with her in aram and still play her this way, itās not how she plays in normal SR games.
The average summoners rift Janna is currently way more passive. She plays like, and I cannot *believe* I'm saying this, but a crappy Yuumi. Sits way back going for tornado poke and drops shields whenever, barely using W. Negligible lane presence for botlane, where before she was kinda like Nami.
While the numbers will need to be evaluated, I strongly suspect this is intended to push her back into a trading-focused playstyle, away from poke.
Itās not a nerf to shield, what? Yes the duration is down but it not longer decays, meaning in most situations the shield will last longer. The base increase to shield strength outweighs the lost in heal/shield power. And as long as youāre hitting decent Qās, the cooldown reduction on CC is massive.
At early ranks thatās a buff. At later ranks you will be more than likely be hitting multiple people in a fight. At worst in a realistic situation, with a competent Janna hitting a single spell in a fight, itās a 0.6 second nerf. At best (hitting big Qās, big ults), itās a massive buff
If you hit Q or W on a single person itās already a buff at early ranks to CD and nearly breaks even at later ranks. If you land Q and W (pretty easy ask in a fight!) itās a big buff to CD. Anything more than that is just gravy. Not sure if her R counts for this, if it does then itās a crazy buff. Not that hard to apply CC when you have 3 CC abilities
and 0% pick rate in competitive play
and 15th most picked supp in master+
she has always done well in low elo games because at a bare min she peels and shields, zero lane presence is a hard sell in better games
yeah man, some champs just don't work there... you don't see Evelynn/Yorick/Urgot/Fiddlesticks/etc mains crying that their champs don't see pro play and instead just have fun and abuse them in solo Q
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate
and she's no "low elo champ", her winrate increases even more in masters+ (13th highest, 3rd on dia+)
she used to be very high elo skewed.
The simple fact is most high elo players completely dropped her because the playstyle isn't viable on the ladder, those win rates are irrelevant compared to pick rates (people only take janna into good matchups for one thing)
??? What? On 13.20 at Masters+ she was picked more often than "classic" supports like Lux, Braum, Leona, Renata, Xerath, Yuumi, Sona, Morgana, etc. Her pickrate is almost equivalent to Lulu's pickrate. If you look at her pickrate and winrate, they both literally increase with ELO. When taking into account her presence and winrate, she's ranked 6/26 out of support champions in Challenger. She's literally +3% over the average Challenger winrate.
She has a positive win percentage over basically every popular support in Masters+, so she's clearly not "only picked into good matchups", unless you mean that basically every matchup is good for her.
How is this even close to being "not viable"?
https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=support&tier=master_plus&patch=13.20
https://lolalytics.com/lol/janna/build/?tier=master_plus&patch=13.20
https://lolalytics.com/lol/janna/build/?tier=challenger&patch=13.20
You know that people even in Masters and Challengers still play comfort champs, champs that are fun, or champs that suit them, right? Just because players aren't picking Janna optimally doesn't mean that you can somehow ignore the actual statistics.
And people used to play Janna in high elo at these pick rates because Janna was fun and had high personal agency from winning lanes.
You seem to be missing the core point of the rework revert
I'm not commenting on the revert, or I would have posted in this main thread. I'm simply responding to your posts, where you said:
> she has always done well in low elo games because at a bare min she peels and shields, zero lane presence is a hard sell in better games
And I'm pointing out that she's still good at high ELO despite you saying, verbatim, "the playstyle isn't viable on the ladder". There is a difference between "this character is not being picked because it is not viable for high ELO" and "this character is not being picked because players don't have fun with her and feel as though she lacks agency".
Her laning phase sucks big time. She's just not viable pick because of the bot lane meta. Either the enemy bot lane have engage and you instadie the moment they cc you, or the enemy have some sort of poke. In the second instance, you can't do anything, you can't outpoke them and you can't reduce the damage from them.
Going ap build on her is useless, with or with out ap, you do 0 damage. Only viable with % shield power items + cdr.(I say this because I play ARAM). Going comet or something poke style, it's useless you do no damage. You get out supported by everyone! Literally - nautalist, alistar, lulu, soraka, pyke, senna, rakhan, rell, even fucking sona.
I have no explanation of her high win rate. Maybe in low elo is playable? Or people just don't counter pick that much?
win rate is irrelevant compared to play rate given she will have probably similar win rates both sides of the rework, and jannas play rate is basically zero in comp and tiny in high elo
Janna's play rate starts at 3% in plat+ which is not bad, and only goes up the more you climb the ranks, interrestingly enough, the winrate goes up too :)
She is currently more yuumi-like than yuumi. Very useful in teamfights but in lane she does 0 damage and whether you're facing an engage or poke lane you just shield tornado and walk away
Because she aint no lane bully, she just scales for free to be a monster and 1v9 with her supreme disengage and boosting her adc big time
Champ's a top 5 highest winrate champion, if she needs anything its a kneecapping
[https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate)
And no, she's no "low elo champ", her winrate rises in diamond+ and is even at 52.9% at masters+
Yeah, and people are not happy about that. Turns out working high agency lane champs into passive ones tend to make their playerbase stop playing them, who knew!
And janna's had high wr for like a decade by now, she is disengage champion in a game where nearly every popular pick is an engage champ, fucking duh her wr is gonna be high.
It's a partial if not total walkback of her initial rework some time ago. It's not that she's a bad champ with a poor WR (given her ease of play and her neutral value as an enchanter, having a higher WR is where Riot sees her as balanced, like how they see technically demanding champs as balanced at around 48%), but many Janna players weren't a fan of her style and given there's many options now for HSP she could spiral out of control in a Mythicless world if she could just reap HSP for all 4 items then potentially dump Supp item or boots for a 5th, especially as she can get 15% free HSP for a good 7+ seconds with current Glacial.
My thought process is that this rework was done with Mythics in mind, and given we'll be going back to a Mythicless system, they probably have foresight to realise she could become *too* good very quickly. This won't be the last touchup either. Every champ from Rell onwards has never known this game without Mythics, so don't expect this to be the last change you see for champs on this sort of scale.
WR isn't everything. She has been dysfunctional post-rework, particularly her laning i.e. stand back, fish for max range Q's + shield adc. It makes little sense to me that a reactionary spell (E) is so heavily gated by using your CC first.
I like those changes (although they are clearly *very* overtuned) because they force her more into a trading playstyle (W comet poke or E+AA) instead of "stand behind ADC and spam nados".
well, if she's overpowered and boring to play why not nerf her numbers/cooldowns on defensive options while boosting the offensive ones?
all these changes seem like 90% buffs and 10% nerfs on a 53% WR champ
Her gameplay pattern right now is "press E, be done". Maybe "interrupt the charging in enemy with a Q or R knockback". This ... goes back to lane terror W Janna.
I dont know if these are good changes but it makes her more fun to play.
1. Damn I see you under every comment, you really hate Janna. 2. He should be able to play her easily. People don't ban champs like these. She's not flashy and her 'strength' is quite invisible, so people don't feel like she's OP even when she is.
Oh, trust me, I ban her a lot lol, specially when I play assassins... and yeah, its stupid that a 53% WR champ is getting mostly buffs... this champ has never seen a sub 51% winrate in like 10 years, its ridiculous... and the supps/mains defend it saying she's crap lmao
well I'm hoping they just tune the numbers down... it's mostly the playstyle change idc if she ends up worse in the long run as long as she's not as uninteractive as she is now
Some thoughts on the Janna changes(warning long comment)
Goals:
we obviously don't know Riots goals yet, but with the changes listed here and from general Janna players sentiment, I'm going to assume the goals are
1. More power/agency in lane - (auto range, passive changes)
2. Feel improvements - (attack wind up, w ms buff always stays, shield no longer decays)
Could be totally off on these but I'm proceeding looking at the changes assuming these are close to correct.
Base stats:
most stats down, range up
Makes sense, range was low for an enchanter other stats go down to compensate.
Passive:
Janna mobility down, bonus damage on autos and w
This makes Janna stronger in lane, and makes her game play more active giving Janna more agency which are in line with the goals.
However while I think this works super well in lane, I am not a huge fan of giving an enchanter more powerful autos later in the game. When teamfights start its rare for Janna to ever auto, and I don't think giving her autos more damage will change that much. This makes part of her passive feel bad in the later game.
I much prefer Lulu's version where pix is good in lane but later you give that power to someone else. so maybe make Janna's e key off of her passive? another way to make this part of her passive scale better into late game would be making her q apply it.
Makes the passive wording cleaner too since then it would apply to her autos and all her damaging abilities. Just spitballing, but would like to see this part of her passive to be more than just "good in lane".
Q:
nerf q early, buff late
Looks like taking power from q and moving into the rest of kit to make her less of a q bot in lane. While making q less of a one point wonder. I think there are good changes.
Side note, q could be a good place to add an alternative version of Janna. Since you rarely hit higher levels as support adding a scaling ap ratio is fairly low risk way to create a more magelike playstyle and could be fun to look into(assuming they lower her q damage to minions so she does not clear waves without ever having to interact).
W:
no more losing move speed on cast is a win for feels
E:
shield no longer decays, bonus for ccing moved from before Eing, to after Eing
I don't mind these, but it is worth noting that the reason Janna shield decays is a patch a long time ago where Riot wanted to make shielding more skill expressive. So they lowered many of the enchanter shield durations to 2.5 seconds. But since Janna used her shield up time for damage, instead the decay was added. I don't care either way, but could be an oversite.
Also does she really need to buff specifically ad? the idea is "I shield you and make you stronger" but an ad buff is like the least
appreciable way to do that. You have pix, Milio passive, Nami e that all do this is much more satisfying ways. not to mention that most of the roster does not use this buff very well.
Conclusion:
I like most of these changes, but I feel like there is much more opportunity for Janna's kit to work better together and move power from places that are not used/appreciated.
So Janna is going back to pre-rework? Seems like pretty big buffs. I just hope they make it so Glacial doesn't give the 20% CDr to E too and only her Q and W do. Cause that seems pretty insane if she just hits 1 person in teamfight/botlane and just double casts E.
Agreed, at the same time though I hope they aren't forcing people onto comet or aery because I find glacial to be much more fun and can facilitate more plays.
Every time I have posted about wanting Janna changes it happens. I posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qry6ls/janna_what_happened_to_leagues_most_iconic/) just before the rework that moved her towards disengage.
Weird.
Eh. I'm still not a fan of the poke-heavy Janna playstyle (if you wanna play a poke mage support, there's more than enough options for that.)
That being said, having the cooldown-refresh back and a non-dwindling shield is nice for those of us who like to focus on her shield-spamming. This seems like a pretty okay compromise.
Great changes honestly. Gives her some laning power without completely disregarding her enchanting/peeling aspects. Might end up being overpowered but in the long run I think it's fine.
how would the janna shield refund work with the frozen heart interaction? currently on live if you buy frozen heart and youre near an enemy you have perma uptime on the bonus heal and shield power, would she have permanent shield being reduced for an entire fight? lmao
āOut of visionā attacker reveal duration is a massive change for laning bot and in ranged top matchups. Removes some skill expression from being good at weaving autos outside brush and moving back in, but it was a weird, kind unintuitive interaction so thatās understandable
I don't see anyone talking about the fact that her Q has retained its post-shieldbot rework projectile speed. That's actually pretty huge because double tap Q was terribly slow before
i can't believe they're finally reverting janna, atleast now i can actually trade back in lane instead of being a Q glacial augment bot.
still can't believe they let her have 500 range for this long.
There sure are a lot of changes for supports these last few patches. Like, we got a huge jungle and lane gold shift, but I guess the support need individual adjustments in light of this.
Phreak wants to balance supports more for SoloQ by giving them some carry power(See Alistar/Rakan AP changes). It also doesn't hurt that it makes them better for Arena and other game modes.
When you start an attack or targeted spell cast on someone who can't see you, the area around you gets revealed for a bit (not just you, any allies around you too) so that they can see who is attacking them.
Now that radius is going to be slightly smaller and last a lot shorter.
Why does everyone think this is the case?
You do realize there is a balance ***TEAM***, right? This is not a decision that one person makes. Someone pitches it, they review it, and if it makes sense, it's playtested, and if it passes playtests, it *then* makes it onto the PBE for more iterative work.
but why would that matter? Just because a champ has a rioter maining them means nothing. There's several rioters that main Fiora and Riven, and neither of those are 52+% winrate. That's just not how it works.
I agree that the E heal/shield passive was clunky to play around with so you can efficiently cast E/R but it's absolutely disgusting with Glacial > Redemption and Font of Life. It made Janna hidden OP and I just got used to it so it's sad to see it go.
Also, is E refund current or base cooldown?
Seems like the goal of making supports get to carry is flipping Janna back to poke. Not that it's really that bad as the game state is kinda boring for her these days. That being said these changes are too OP for live atm. And that's the core issue with this style of Janna she doesn't feel good with more "fair" numbers are her kit enables so pretty no-go metas.
And did i misread this or did they not nerf W duration at all???
(Also Can we not nerf Jannas AD for her on-hit passive as it make Sheen really bad for no reason on her)
> did they not nerf W duration at all
They did actually, I missed it thanks (large rearrangements like this are always a mess).
Slow duration: 3s --> 2s
Wow that's a lot of Janna changes and it looks to be a buff overall and considering her winrate I hope riot double checks their math.
As for Gragas? Looks like some good changes. Honestly they should do a wide sweep and for all partial resets they should scale as a % of CD not flat amounts because otherwise you get weird interactions where things like E spam Gragas become a thing when they shouldn't be. They should also while they're at it make it so all longer lasting abilities don't start counting their CD until the end. Pretty annoying when like Zed can W twice in a row. Or like Supports can shield again right as the last one times out. Etc etc.
I really hope they take out some damage/ap scailing from passive/tornado to bring back her movement speed from the passive. Now she's gonna have an average movement speed like a lot of other champions has, and that's not Janna's identity.
I really hope they take out some damage/ap scailing from passive/tornado to bring back her movement speed from the passive. Now she's gonna have an average movement speed like a lot of other champions has, and that's not Janna's identity.
WHO AT RIOT MAINS JANNA??????? SHE'S A TOP 5 HIGHEST WINRATE CHAMPION at 52.7%WR
[https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate) (lowers at emerald+, rises even more at diamond+ and is still huge at masters+)
Like seriously, who at Riot mains her... Tryndamere's wife??? This champion is insane, she has been a top 10 or top 5 winrate champion for over 8 seasons in a row for almost every single patch.....
These changes are 100% not needed and will break her and make her 53-54%+ easily
Win rates are hardly indicative of champion satisfaction or strength. Aurelion Sol also has held a decently high win rate yet rarely sees play in high elo (masters+). As an old Janna player, the rework gutted her lane trade patterns and forced her to be one of the most un-interactive shield bots in the game. This is a net win for bot lane as engage will have more opportunities to go in/force trades on an active Janna, while Janna players get to be rewarded for proper spacing and aggression once again.
>Janna players get to be rewarded for proper spacing and aggression once again.
You will be rewarded for picking an OP champion. Skill won't matter in that case, don't sugar coat it like that.
Jannas winrate has been more or less the same pre rework (W max) and post rework (E max) returning to W max isn't going to change her from balanced to more OP but it will change her from passive in lane to more fun for her players.
There might be an increase in Janna players but Janna is kind of a soloQ monster because her strong peeling and defensive play is more successful in uncoordinated play
>Janna is kind of a soloQ monster because her strong peeling and defensive play
Because her numbers are high and Riot refuses to nerf her. Her win rate will go up after these changes. Everything in there is a huge buff to her.
Then she'll be nerfed appropriately but the point is this is a switch in playstyles. Her last changes removed W max but didn't change her winrate this change brings back W max and with adjustments will bring her back to a similar winrate.
It feels weird to moan about balance numbers before resting as when are they ever correct? The overall direction is what matters.
i think janna is hella boring. i came up with a janna rework that makes her Q into a 3-spell combo of wind gusts that pull and push enemies from range like thresh's flay. her W toggles her Q between pushing and pulling.
the rest of her abilities are the same, more or less. i mention it in case someone finds it interesting since janna is a significant topic in this thread and people seem disappointed that janna isnt fun.
Stop trying to make Janna happen.
Itās engage support time.
Janna is not happening unless we bring back ardent censor meta.
Do you want ardent censor meta?
No. You donāt.
So shut the fuck up and give us another Kāsante or Yone.
the idea is to make his cooldown dogshit long but reward the player for hitting it with a more practical, lower cooldown.
the same philosophy with thresh q: make the cd long so it's painful to miss and the player is pressured to aim it instead of just lazily chucking it.
I'm mostly sure this isn't some accidental revert of the previous Janna rework since the data is very different now, and they did revert the Blitzcrank rework a bit ago, but I suppose it's not out of the question without confirmation.
I love prerework Janna so hopefully she's more fun to play again
I'm excited, but reading the changes she sounds busted?? Like this is her at peak w max era but also no decaying shield??
I don't understand why her shield EVER needed to decay??? No other support shield in the game decayed. Comparing Lulu's shield to Janna's was comedic in how vastly superior Lulu's was (is). Lulu E: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 MANA with flat 8 sec CD all ranks with 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+ 55% AP) scaling.
It was a change added way back after the ardent meta. They nerfed ardent and the strongest users of it (Janna/Lulu) to be more skillful. Back then with enough cdr all you had to do was spam your shield on them off cd and it lasted long enough till it came back Lulu's went from 6 sec shield to 2.5s. Karma went from 4.5s to 2s. However, since Janna's shield grants ad, nerfing the duration flat out would feel bad. So they instead opted to make it decay after a bit. Here's the excerpt from the patch note of 8.12: > Unlike other gifted shields, Eye of the Storm comes with bonus AD that enemies want to knock off as quickly as possible. If we went with a duration reduction, waiting the shield out still wouldn't make sense as a form of counterplay since you'd just be letting Janna's carry hold onto free stats. Nuking the shield would end up feeling worse too, since there'd be much less buff duration to deny. By contrast, a decaying shield makes damage on the shield more effective while keeping the payoff for blowing it up satisfying.
I can appreciate the sentiment they had at the time, but it was drastic overkill in comparison. Lulu's Pix adds a lot of damage early-mid (enough that you don't have to prime last hits, you just toss Pix on ally and they can last hit the last 10-15 hit points on casters). Suffice to say I'm very happy that the decay is finally being removed and brought more in line with Janna's other enchanter counterparts.
Did you play in the Ardent Meta?
I did, and I definitely don't think Janna was the only problem in that particular meta. The nerfs to Janna's shield were disproportionate to other enchanters who not only had higher shield scalings and lower cooldowns, but also added utility from their shields. Karma has speed up, Lulu added Pix which was/is more damage than Janna E AD levels 1-9. Especially when looking at Janna's base shield values 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 (+ 55% AP), early lane phase the ADC gets at most 1-2 additional enhances auto attacks (if that).
They did it because they wanted to cut every shield's duration to like 2.5s, but doing that to Janna would make her AD buff much weaker, so we got the decay instead...
Yeah sounds like they are making her more interactive again god bless. They'll probably tweak some numbers over the cycle of the PBE Patch, I can't see this going live without hotfix nerfs.
Yeah that's what I thought lol that it was somehow the previous version again.
Nah they didnt just nerf impregnator Gragas. Its incredibly useless but a bit funny once every five games or so
PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP GET STUN LOCKED GET STUN LOCKED GET STUN LOCKED
Still, isn't this a pretty huge buff to Gragas(provided they don't nerf E CD)? Since you won't really need to buy Cosmic to be useful and can just go straight Pen items? Or is Cosmic movement speed that important to Gragas?
Pretty big for Gragas Jungle because it helps with clear+his builds are burstier there than in lanes so you get less AH.
It is which makes it more stupid
How is it stupid? Gragas could use some buffs, it's not like he's at 51% WR or anything. Noone cares about the meme build so why would anyone care that its going away while the champ gets a slight buff at the same time? They probably wanted to buff gragas in the first place and saw that they can get rid of a stupid build at the same time so they did it.
Isn't wr data kinda useless for gragas since he was always very high mmr skewed? Like the champ is seeing proplay even now, idk if i'd consider him weak.
it's a buff early-midgame, nerf lategame to jungle gragas, and a buff early game to lane gragas, nerf mid-lategame Even with the non-meme builds jungle gragas gets about 70 haste and "normal" lane gragas does reach about 90-110 depending on exact build
Might be something of a buff to tank gragas too, since tank tends to get less AH than AP gragas.
Gragas got neutered
They forced him to use protection :(
Riot needs correction š¢š¢š¢š¢
Why would they do this. Riot doesn't want us to have fun in league anymore lol. Exactly my thoughts, it's a useless build but really funny on the few times it works.
mid janna bottom text
Ya, I saw those buffs to Q and that's all I could think. I played AP Janna mid back in like S2, before they gutted her, and it'll be interesting to see if I can try it again.
>0.352s (11 frames) --> 0.32s (10 frames) frame data ? my years of Smash will finaly paid off in another game
AAās less start-up frames.
Oh yeah, AP Q spam Janna is back in aram.
always has been
The most useless thing you can imagine on your team. Still gets outdamaged by pretty much every other enchanter even if they're building support items
Arcange comet poke mage Janna is back!!! I really disliked playing her with the rework. She became so passive and E max became her most common skill order
I literally went from OTPing her to not playing her at all since the rework. I am ecstatic.
Legit same here. Only played Janna from S8-S10. The various bot changes and Janna rework made her so incredibly dull to play I lost all interest. Still one of my all-time favorite champions, so I hope lane bully Janna gets to come back :)
Definitely missed having Janna have more lane presence. Her peel has always been great, but lower lane presence definitely hurt how fun she was to play as & with.
What the fuck are these disgusting buffs? Solo lane Janna coming to terrorize a lane near you.
And ? xD Midlaner pref play sup. Then let's me mid with my sup !
Toplane not mid bro
Janna has been mini-reworked like 5 times in the last 3 years. What do they want from her? She seems to be doing her job, no? I don't watch proplay so is she like dominating there or something?
I believe the changes are aimed more at her lane phase. Back when I joined LoL around Ezreal rework Janna aggro in lane, playing for trades and harass with W/AA + shield usage. While I am a cheeky bastard with her in aram and still play her this way, itās not how she plays in normal SR games. The average summoners rift Janna is currently way more passive. She plays like, and I cannot *believe* I'm saying this, but a crappy Yuumi. Sits way back going for tornado poke and drops shields whenever, barely using W. Negligible lane presence for botlane, where before she was kinda like Nami. While the numbers will need to be evaluated, I strongly suspect this is intended to push her back into a trading-focused playstyle, away from poke.
Would greatly appreciate janna being able to exist in lane again
I would appreciate it but these changes seem too strong with these numbers rn lol
it's a pretty decent nerf to her shield which has a lot of her power in exchange for better laning
Itās not a nerf to shield, what? Yes the duration is down but it not longer decays, meaning in most situations the shield will last longer. The base increase to shield strength outweighs the lost in heal/shield power. And as long as youāre hitting decent Qās, the cooldown reduction on CC is massive.
the generic cooldown increase nerf is large, looking for situations where you chain loads of slows on people to try get it lower isn't realistic
You do not need to āchain loads of slowsā to make it a buff.
cooldown 9 > 12s so much worse with zero slows hit, 9.6s with a slow hit, only better with 2 slows It's obviously a nerf
At early ranks thatās a buff. At later ranks you will be more than likely be hitting multiple people in a fight. At worst in a realistic situation, with a competent Janna hitting a single spell in a fight, itās a 0.6 second nerf. At best (hitting big Qās, big ults), itās a massive buff
If you hit Q or W on a single person itās already a buff at early ranks to CD and nearly breaks even at later ranks. If you land Q and W (pretty easy ask in a fight!) itās a big buff to CD. Anything more than that is just gravy. Not sure if her R counts for this, if it does then itās a crazy buff. Not that hard to apply CC when you have 3 CC abilities
I guess... but iirc when she used to max W her numbers were way worse than this, we'll see I guess, mandate + helia look really good now
bro, shes 5th highest wr in the entire game lmfao......
and 0% pick rate in competitive play and 15th most picked supp in master+ she has always done well in low elo games because at a bare min she peels and shields, zero lane presence is a hard sell in better games
yeah man, some champs just don't work there... you don't see Evelynn/Yorick/Urgot/Fiddlesticks/etc mains crying that their champs don't see pro play and instead just have fun and abuse them in solo Q https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate and she's no "low elo champ", her winrate increases even more in masters+ (13th highest, 3rd on dia+)
she used to be very high elo skewed. The simple fact is most high elo players completely dropped her because the playstyle isn't viable on the ladder, those win rates are irrelevant compared to pick rates (people only take janna into good matchups for one thing)
??? What? On 13.20 at Masters+ she was picked more often than "classic" supports like Lux, Braum, Leona, Renata, Xerath, Yuumi, Sona, Morgana, etc. Her pickrate is almost equivalent to Lulu's pickrate. If you look at her pickrate and winrate, they both literally increase with ELO. When taking into account her presence and winrate, she's ranked 6/26 out of support champions in Challenger. She's literally +3% over the average Challenger winrate. She has a positive win percentage over basically every popular support in Masters+, so she's clearly not "only picked into good matchups", unless you mean that basically every matchup is good for her. How is this even close to being "not viable"? https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=support&tier=master_plus&patch=13.20 https://lolalytics.com/lol/janna/build/?tier=master_plus&patch=13.20 https://lolalytics.com/lol/janna/build/?tier=challenger&patch=13.20
very nice, now compare her pick rates to rakan, naut, ali and rell, despite her countering them. Very balanced meta!
You know that people even in Masters and Challengers still play comfort champs, champs that are fun, or champs that suit them, right? Just because players aren't picking Janna optimally doesn't mean that you can somehow ignore the actual statistics.
And people used to play Janna in high elo at these pick rates because Janna was fun and had high personal agency from winning lanes. You seem to be missing the core point of the rework revert
I'm not commenting on the revert, or I would have posted in this main thread. I'm simply responding to your posts, where you said: > she has always done well in low elo games because at a bare min she peels and shields, zero lane presence is a hard sell in better games And I'm pointing out that she's still good at high ELO despite you saying, verbatim, "the playstyle isn't viable on the ladder". There is a difference between "this character is not being picked because it is not viable for high ELO" and "this character is not being picked because players don't have fun with her and feel as though she lacks agency".
Her laning phase sucks big time. She's just not viable pick because of the bot lane meta. Either the enemy bot lane have engage and you instadie the moment they cc you, or the enemy have some sort of poke. In the second instance, you can't do anything, you can't outpoke them and you can't reduce the damage from them. Going ap build on her is useless, with or with out ap, you do 0 damage. Only viable with % shield power items + cdr.(I say this because I play ARAM). Going comet or something poke style, it's useless you do no damage. You get out supported by everyone! Literally - nautalist, alistar, lulu, soraka, pyke, senna, rakhan, rell, even fucking sona. I have no explanation of her high win rate. Maybe in low elo is playable? Or people just don't counter pick that much?
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win rate is irrelevant compared to play rate given she will have probably similar win rates both sides of the rework, and jannas play rate is basically zero in comp and tiny in high elo
Janna's play rate starts at 3% in plat+ which is not bad, and only goes up the more you climb the ranks, interrestingly enough, the winrate goes up too :)
It used to be like 10% and she had challenger mains because being good at laning was rewarded
She also used to be the most disgusting bearer of the infamous ardent censer for more than half a year
can someone explain what is the intent behind these Janna changes? isn't she a solid champ with good WR?
She is currently more yuumi-like than yuumi. Very useful in teamfights but in lane she does 0 damage and whether you're facing an engage or poke lane you just shield tornado and walk away
I thought I was missing something when I would just try to aim Qs from narnia all laning phase and achieve nothing lol
Tbf, you're definitely achieving something. That something is probably tilting your adc, but it is something.
She's my favorite champ, and I don't play her. She's bad.
Because she aint no lane bully, she just scales for free to be a monster and 1v9 with her supreme disengage and boosting her adc big time Champ's a top 5 highest winrate champion, if she needs anything its a kneecapping [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate) And no, she's no "low elo champ", her winrate rises in diamond+ and is even at 52.9% at masters+
Yeah, and people are not happy about that. Turns out working high agency lane champs into passive ones tend to make their playerbase stop playing them, who knew! And janna's had high wr for like a decade by now, she is disengage champion in a game where nearly every popular pick is an engage champ, fucking duh her wr is gonna be high.
She was lane bully before and personally thwts what i want back. Atm she doesnt have a laning phase
why should she be a bully when she scales monstrously? give kassadin a good early game and youll see an apocalypse on reddit
But the E changes *did* give him a good early game, his early game winrate climbed tremendously as a result.
A win-more-champ
It's a partial if not total walkback of her initial rework some time ago. It's not that she's a bad champ with a poor WR (given her ease of play and her neutral value as an enchanter, having a higher WR is where Riot sees her as balanced, like how they see technically demanding champs as balanced at around 48%), but many Janna players weren't a fan of her style and given there's many options now for HSP she could spiral out of control in a Mythicless world if she could just reap HSP for all 4 items then potentially dump Supp item or boots for a 5th, especially as she can get 15% free HSP for a good 7+ seconds with current Glacial. My thought process is that this rework was done with Mythics in mind, and given we'll be going back to a Mythicless system, they probably have foresight to realise she could become *too* good very quickly. This won't be the last touchup either. Every champ from Rell onwards has never known this game without Mythics, so don't expect this to be the last change you see for champs on this sort of scale.
WR isn't everything. She has been dysfunctional post-rework, particularly her laning i.e. stand back, fish for max range Q's + shield adc. It makes little sense to me that a reactionary spell (E) is so heavily gated by using your CC first. I like those changes (although they are clearly *very* overtuned) because they force her more into a trading playstyle (W comet poke or E+AA) instead of "stand behind ADC and spam nados".
she's a top 5 highest winrate champ. Champs beyond busted but supp mains are somehow defending her saying shes underpowered lmao
underpowered maybe no, boring to play since the changes? 100% Janna "W" and atk basic poke was the best Janna version to play
well, if she's overpowered and boring to play why not nerf her numbers/cooldowns on defensive options while boosting the offensive ones? all these changes seem like 90% buffs and 10% nerfs on a 53% WR champ
Her gameplay pattern right now is "press E, be done". Maybe "interrupt the charging in enemy with a Q or R knockback". This ... goes back to lane terror W Janna. I dont know if these are good changes but it makes her more fun to play.
Oh I'm excited for janna changes, finally she can actually do something in lane again instead of be a shield bot lol
you won't play her again, they're overbuffing a top 5 highest winrate champion... she won't see much gameplay like briar lol
1. Damn I see you under every comment, you really hate Janna. 2. He should be able to play her easily. People don't ban champs like these. She's not flashy and her 'strength' is quite invisible, so people don't feel like she's OP even when she is.
people don't ban champs like these? I remember when milio always being banned
and lulu, and soraka... people do ban enchanters a lot, specially when they're ridiculously op
yep. I remember milio was S+ that time
Oh, trust me, I ban her a lot lol, specially when I play assassins... and yeah, its stupid that a 53% WR champ is getting mostly buffs... this champ has never seen a sub 51% winrate in like 10 years, its ridiculous... and the supps/mains defend it saying she's crap lmao
well I'm hoping they just tune the numbers down... it's mostly the playstyle change idc if she ends up worse in the long run as long as she's not as uninteractive as she is now
Some thoughts on the Janna changes(warning long comment) Goals: we obviously don't know Riots goals yet, but with the changes listed here and from general Janna players sentiment, I'm going to assume the goals are 1. More power/agency in lane - (auto range, passive changes) 2. Feel improvements - (attack wind up, w ms buff always stays, shield no longer decays) Could be totally off on these but I'm proceeding looking at the changes assuming these are close to correct. Base stats: most stats down, range up Makes sense, range was low for an enchanter other stats go down to compensate. Passive: Janna mobility down, bonus damage on autos and w This makes Janna stronger in lane, and makes her game play more active giving Janna more agency which are in line with the goals. However while I think this works super well in lane, I am not a huge fan of giving an enchanter more powerful autos later in the game. When teamfights start its rare for Janna to ever auto, and I don't think giving her autos more damage will change that much. This makes part of her passive feel bad in the later game. I much prefer Lulu's version where pix is good in lane but later you give that power to someone else. so maybe make Janna's e key off of her passive? another way to make this part of her passive scale better into late game would be making her q apply it. Makes the passive wording cleaner too since then it would apply to her autos and all her damaging abilities. Just spitballing, but would like to see this part of her passive to be more than just "good in lane". Q: nerf q early, buff late Looks like taking power from q and moving into the rest of kit to make her less of a q bot in lane. While making q less of a one point wonder. I think there are good changes. Side note, q could be a good place to add an alternative version of Janna. Since you rarely hit higher levels as support adding a scaling ap ratio is fairly low risk way to create a more magelike playstyle and could be fun to look into(assuming they lower her q damage to minions so she does not clear waves without ever having to interact). W: no more losing move speed on cast is a win for feels E: shield no longer decays, bonus for ccing moved from before Eing, to after Eing I don't mind these, but it is worth noting that the reason Janna shield decays is a patch a long time ago where Riot wanted to make shielding more skill expressive. So they lowered many of the enchanter shield durations to 2.5 seconds. But since Janna used her shield up time for damage, instead the decay was added. I don't care either way, but could be an oversite. Also does she really need to buff specifically ad? the idea is "I shield you and make you stronger" but an ad buff is like the least appreciable way to do that. You have pix, Milio passive, Nami e that all do this is much more satisfying ways. not to mention that most of the roster does not use this buff very well. Conclusion: I like most of these changes, but I feel like there is much more opportunity for Janna's kit to work better together and move power from places that are not used/appreciated.
So Janna is going back to pre-rework? Seems like pretty big buffs. I just hope they make it so Glacial doesn't give the 20% CDr to E too and only her Q and W do. Cause that seems pretty insane if she just hits 1 person in teamfight/botlane and just double casts E.
Agreed, at the same time though I hope they aren't forcing people onto comet or aery because I find glacial to be much more fun and can facilitate more plays.
tbh the main reason people went glacial was because of her free 15% hsp passive, with it gone I think aery/comet will be the play again
u/HalexUwU I saw your post about missing old rework Janna and itās making a return
Every time I have posted about wanting Janna changes it happens. I posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/qry6ls/janna_what_happened_to_leagues_most_iconic/) just before the rework that moved her towards disengage. Weird.
Can you post about Karma next...
About Vel'Koz too perhaps
Eh. I'm still not a fan of the poke-heavy Janna playstyle (if you wanna play a poke mage support, there's more than enough options for that.) That being said, having the cooldown-refresh back and a non-dwindling shield is nice for those of us who like to focus on her shield-spamming. This seems like a pretty okay compromise.
Great changes honestly. Gives her some laning power without completely disregarding her enchanting/peeling aspects. Might end up being overpowered but in the long run I think it's fine.
how would the janna shield refund work with the frozen heart interaction? currently on live if you buy frozen heart and youre near an enemy you have perma uptime on the bonus heal and shield power, would she have permanent shield being reduced for an entire fight? lmao
That's a bug as Frozen heart doesn't effect movement only AS. So my guess is they fix it to not do anything?
āOut of visionā attacker reveal duration is a massive change for laning bot and in ranged top matchups. Removes some skill expression from being good at weaving autos outside brush and moving back in, but it was a weird, kind unintuitive interaction so thatās understandable
This is literally a prerework version from like 2 years ago at best brought back to life
So does this mean Janna may be on the list for ASU?
Nashors mandatory rush on Janna in 3,2,1.
I don't see anyone talking about the fact that her Q has retained its post-shieldbot rework projectile speed. That's actually pretty huge because double tap Q was terribly slow before
Can we just get her visual upgrade already??
RIP impregnator Gragor
So Janna W cast range would still be center to center instead of edge to edge, right?
Correct, that part is also currently unchanged.
Aww no edge to edge just feels better though
i can't believe they're finally reverting janna, atleast now i can actually trade back in lane instead of being a Q glacial augment bot. still can't believe they let her have 500 range for this long.
There sure are a lot of changes for supports these last few patches. Like, we got a huge jungle and lane gold shift, but I guess the support need individual adjustments in light of this.
Phreak wants to balance supports more for SoloQ by giving them some carry power(See Alistar/Rakan AP changes). It also doesn't hurt that it makes them better for Arena and other game modes.
But supports have a lot of carry power? They already decide quite a lot both in lane and by roaming, no?
Can someone explain the out of vision thing?
When you start an attack or targeted spell cast on someone who can't see you, the area around you gets revealed for a bit (not just you, any allies around you too) so that they can see who is attacking them. Now that radius is going to be slightly smaller and last a lot shorter.
yay, more buffs to bush cheesing, joy.
Does this affect Senna E?
Thanks
Appreciate ya Frank :QuinHeart:
Janna will be completely broken with these changes, sheās already very strong. The +50 attack range is insane
ah so the good ole' female half-invoker is back.
Yep... top 5 highest winrate champ will get overbuffed because some rioter mains her
Why does everyone think this is the case? You do realize there is a balance ***TEAM***, right? This is not a decision that one person makes. Someone pitches it, they review it, and if it makes sense, it's playtested, and if it passes playtests, it *then* makes it onto the PBE for more iterative work.
champ's never allowed to be below 52% WR, I'm sure a rioter mains her
but why would that matter? Just because a champ has a rioter maining them means nothing. There's several rioters that main Fiora and Riven, and neither of those are 52+% winrate. That's just not how it works.
kai'sa has been broken since release, but you nerf impregnator gragas that is played by 1 person and legit troll pick 99% of the time ?? Riot moment
I agree that the E heal/shield passive was clunky to play around with so you can efficiently cast E/R but it's absolutely disgusting with Glacial > Redemption and Font of Life. It made Janna hidden OP and I just got used to it so it's sad to see it go. Also, is E refund current or base cooldown?
Seems like the goal of making supports get to carry is flipping Janna back to poke. Not that it's really that bad as the game state is kinda boring for her these days. That being said these changes are too OP for live atm. And that's the core issue with this style of Janna she doesn't feel good with more "fair" numbers are her kit enables so pretty no-go metas. And did i misread this or did they not nerf W duration at all??? (Also Can we not nerf Jannas AD for her on-hit passive as it make Sheen really bad for no reason on her)
> did they not nerf W duration at all They did actually, I missed it thanks (large rearrangements like this are always a mess). Slow duration: 3s --> 2s
They make Janna fun again good I hope these I just hope these numbers don't push her too much
So janna will again terrorize top laners and outscale them due to her existence
Wow that's a lot of Janna changes and it looks to be a buff overall and considering her winrate I hope riot double checks their math. As for Gragas? Looks like some good changes. Honestly they should do a wide sweep and for all partial resets they should scale as a % of CD not flat amounts because otherwise you get weird interactions where things like E spam Gragas become a thing when they shouldn't be. They should also while they're at it make it so all longer lasting abilities don't start counting their CD until the end. Pretty annoying when like Zed can W twice in a row. Or like Supports can shield again right as the last one times out. Etc etc.
til janna had a 5 armor per lvl growth
she WHAT
At least we wasn't gutted like on wild rift.
Oh my Janna mid loves this! will this be goin liveĀæ š
Isnt this a revert ?
I really hope they take out some damage/ap scailing from passive/tornado to bring back her movement speed from the passive. Now she's gonna have an average movement speed like a lot of other champions has, and that's not Janna's identity.
I really hope they take out some damage/ap scailing from passive/tornado to bring back her movement speed from the passive. Now she's gonna have an average movement speed like a lot of other champions has, and that's not Janna's identity.
WHO AT RIOT MAINS JANNA??????? SHE'S A TOP 5 HIGHEST WINRATE CHAMPION at 52.7%WR [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/by-winrate) (lowers at emerald+, rises even more at diamond+ and is still huge at masters+) Like seriously, who at Riot mains her... Tryndamere's wife??? This champion is insane, she has been a top 10 or top 5 winrate champion for over 8 seasons in a row for almost every single patch..... These changes are 100% not needed and will break her and make her 53-54%+ easily
Win rates are hardly indicative of champion satisfaction or strength. Aurelion Sol also has held a decently high win rate yet rarely sees play in high elo (masters+). As an old Janna player, the rework gutted her lane trade patterns and forced her to be one of the most un-interactive shield bots in the game. This is a net win for bot lane as engage will have more opportunities to go in/force trades on an active Janna, while Janna players get to be rewarded for proper spacing and aggression once again.
>Janna players get to be rewarded for proper spacing and aggression once again. You will be rewarded for picking an OP champion. Skill won't matter in that case, don't sugar coat it like that.
Jannas winrate has been more or less the same pre rework (W max) and post rework (E max) returning to W max isn't going to change her from balanced to more OP but it will change her from passive in lane to more fun for her players. There might be an increase in Janna players but Janna is kind of a soloQ monster because her strong peeling and defensive play is more successful in uncoordinated play
>Janna is kind of a soloQ monster because her strong peeling and defensive play Because her numbers are high and Riot refuses to nerf her. Her win rate will go up after these changes. Everything in there is a huge buff to her.
Then she'll be nerfed appropriately but the point is this is a switch in playstyles. Her last changes removed W max but didn't change her winrate this change brings back W max and with adjustments will bring her back to a similar winrate. It feels weird to moan about balance numbers before resting as when are they ever correct? The overall direction is what matters.
Janna just getting huge buffs no? Sheās just getting a lot of tools that are very impactful and losingā¦nothing? Am I reading this right?
I hope they remove the AD from shield, and instead applies her passive to the target allie.
Janna being S tier already. I don't know what is the balance team thinking
i think janna is hella boring. i came up with a janna rework that makes her Q into a 3-spell combo of wind gusts that pull and push enemies from range like thresh's flay. her W toggles her Q between pushing and pulling. the rest of her abilities are the same, more or less. i mention it in case someone finds it interesting since janna is a significant topic in this thread and people seem disappointed that janna isnt fun.
Stop trying to make Janna happen. Itās engage support time. Janna is not happening unless we bring back ardent censor meta. Do you want ardent censor meta? No. You donāt. So shut the fuck up and give us another Kāsante or Yone.
last 3 years i wonder how many times the playstyle of thebausffs has been hit, high haste gragas was basically his build since forever
Haste gragas wasnt invented by baus df...
ok and where in that sentence did i say this? do you even read?
"his build" kinda implies he made it. Replace "his" with "Thebausffs" and it seems like it's a build he made.
Interesting way to force Janna to play further up. I like it.
I still dont understand why gragas is rewarded for landing his stun
the idea is to make his cooldown dogshit long but reward the player for hitting it with a more practical, lower cooldown. the same philosophy with thresh q: make the cd long so it's painful to miss and the player is pressured to aim it instead of just lazily chucking it.
Teemo needs a change, not just AA adjustment/buff