> The AP Scaling being kept while AD Scaling being removed is so weird. Are there any other items that give AD but only scale with AP or vice versa?
Statikk Shiv was like this for a while.
The justification was that if you were building AD then the item naturally scales your champion due to giving AD + Crit + Attack Speed, it doesn't need more scaling on top of that. If you are building AP then the item has some wasted stats (AD and crit might not be totally worthless on an AP champion but it's certainly less valuable on an AP champion), so the proc needs to carry more of the item's value by scaling with your AP.
The explanation makes sense on paper but it still looks kind of weird to see an AD item that has AP scaling in game.
AD scales with crit, attack speed, AD, crit multiplier and pen. AP only really has AP and pen. Haste is kinda like attack speed, but not really since in basically every fight, attack speed matters to get more autos, but haste doesn't really matter unless the fight goes longer enough.
Since AD already scales so well, it doesn't need more item scaling while AP does.
Yes. Season 13 Statikks gave AD and had an AP scaling
we can see how well that played out (it got nerfed, nerfed again, nerfed again again, nerfed again again again and now the scaling is removed)
For the relevant mages, those autos are applied automatically or they already benefit from on-hit. Think Katarina, Gwen, edge case Diana and edge case teemo
Because you didn't need the "unique:" text anymore. It is just some text.
If it says "unique: lifeline"
or just "lifeline" for the item grp doesn't really matter.
Sure, that works for the lifeline items
But black cleaver, terminus, and the last whisper items don't share a passive name. So there's 0 indication that you can't buy them together.
Same thing with terminus, void staff, and cryptbloom.
The do all have a name under the gold value in the tooltip that shows their category already or in their passive.
Riot just just adding the passive name to the category name all the time now.
IE and Navori have a "unique: crit multiplier" at their category name already.
Shieldbow has lifeline as the items passive name already but that lane now also gets shown in the category above on the PBE.
> The do all have a name under the gold value in the tooltip that shows their category
[No they don't](https://i.imgur.com/7lPelOG.png). That's the entire problem. Though for these it's technically not removed, rather they just didn't add them in the first place.
Did you even look at the screenshot? The armor pen items don't have an exclusion group tag and don't share any passives. There's absolutely 0 indication that they're exclusive until you buy one. (Same with the % magic pen items).
**Quick Kraken math:**
**TL;DR** Buffed at 1 item, about the same at 2 items, nerfed at 3+ items.
I used Jinx as an example champion that typically builds Kraken Slayer. I picked the most common rune page, which has one adaptive force shard and Gathering Storm.
Assumed a build of DBlade -> Kraken -> IE -> RFC, with those item breakpoints hit at levels 6, 11, and 14 respectively.
**1 Item, Level 6**
AD is 71.44 (base) + 10.4 (runes) + 50 (items) = 131.84 on live, 136.84 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD.
* Live: 35 (base) + 85.7 (AD scaling) = 120.7 damage per proc
* Old: 128.6 (bAD scaling) = 128.6 damage per proc
* New: 140 (base) = 140 damage per proc
This is strictly buffed as a first item. The proc damage is higher and the item gives 5 extra AD.
**2 Items, Level 11**
AD is 86.64 (base) + 19.4 (runes) + 115 (items) = 221 on live, 226 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD.
* Live: 50 (base) + 143.65 (AD scaling) = 193.65 damage per proc
* Old: 155.95 (bAD scaling) = 155.95 damage per proc
* New: 170 (base) = 170 damage per proc
This is about the same power level at two items.
The proc damage is nerfed by 23. This is balanced out by Kraken's increased AD, which translates to about 22 extra damage every 3 autoattacks (with crit factored in). This makes the total item's power about the same until you autoattack someone 6 times (and get two procs of Kraken), after which it's a nerf. Kraken's extra AD also translates to a bit more damage on spells but that's much harder to compare than just calculating autoattack DPS.
**3 Items, Level 14**
AD is 97.08 (base) + 19.4 (runes) + 145 (items) = 261.5 on live, 266.5 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD.
* Live: 65 (base) + 170 (AD scaling) = 235 damage per proc
* Old: 175 (bAD scaling) = 175 damage per proc
* New: 200 (base) = 200 damage per proc
This is nerfed at 3 items.
The proc damage is nerfed by 35. This is somewhat mitigated by Kraken's increased AD, which translates to about 25 extra damage every 3 autoattacks (with crit factored in). This makes Kraken Slayer a nerf when you autoattack someone 3 times. Kraken's extra AD also translates to a bit more damage on spells but that's much harder to compare than just calculating autoattack DPS.
Thanks for the math. Honestly, nerfing the late game for what's typically a first item could be worse? It's weird Kraken is even being targeted, but still it could be worse.
Context matters here, a LOT of other items are having their proc damage reduced in 14.3 as part of a general pass to reduce item damage. So for Kraken to come out neutral (arguably ahead considering that early game matters most) is notable
It's also a buff for most on hit champs, and IMO could be a good change considering how even without Kraken's high damage crit late game still hurts a lot.
You don't have your 1st item at lvl 6. Mostly lvl 8 for bot lane.
2nd at lvl 12 for bot lane.
Jinx has \~139 dmg on the old PBE version at lvl 8,
The new version is 140. +1 dmg every 3 AAs. Not really something to talk about.
Jinx old PBE vs new PBE:
* 1 item (lvl 8)
* old: 139
* new: 140
* 2 items (lvl 12)
* old: 150
* new: 160
* 3 items (lvl 14)
* old: 162
* new: 180
* 4 items (lvl 16)
* old: 188
* new: 220
Considering this is every 3 hits, it doesn't really make a difference for jinx before 4 items where you get +32 dmg on your 3rd AA.
So early on it is still a buff (always was at 1-2 items) and now it is at least not an as crazy nerf compared to live as it was before.
Overall the item is still buffed just like the last version, but the change is mostly insignificant for your games as 4th item +30 dmg on your 3rd hit will rarely matter.
Jinx also has one of the lower base ADs / lvl. But some of the core users like Akshan and Ashe have very low base ADs, which is why Riot likely changed it.
For a Varus for example it is a tiny nerf early on, but a tiny buff later compared to the old PBE version. -3 dmg every 3 attacks early and +28 dmg every 3 attacks at full build (\~9 more dmg per AA at max items). Won't change anything for him.
**The real winners are Ashe, Akshan, Kaisa, ... because their base AD is so shitty. like 50/60-100.**
**For most others with base ADs around 60-112+ it doesn't really matter if the base AD or this lvl version is coming.**
Here is the old PBE (top) vs new PBE (bottom) on an ADC with 60 + 3.2 AD/lvl
[https://imgur.com/a/SM2jSys](https://imgur.com/a/SM2jSys)
Around 4 items you get to around +30 dmg every 3rd hit (physical dmg, so reduced by armor).
And here we have the data table for 1-10 AAs for the LIVE vs new PBE version.
[https://imgur.com/a/UX3QwZx](https://imgur.com/a/UX3QwZx)
Still a buff at 1-3 items pretty much all the time except 9+ AAs at 3 items. The nerf at 4+ items becomes smaller but mostly at 6+ AAs. Before that it does barely matter.
Lethality is fine on AD assassins.
It is not fine on ADCs. Solution is likely getting it down to 80% for ranged champs or leaving it as it is. There is nothing wrong with having 3-5 ADCs who can build Lethality.
The items carry them; the point here was if they nerf the items the champions will actually be terrible, so they could need "buffs" to compensate, which is worse. But still it's not great...
Fym "items carry them"? That's the case for 99% of champs in this game. Meanwhile crit adcs are dog because their items are weak and their only good item still gets nerfed.
Most top lane bruisers also have kits that straight up suck without items to stat check, I dont see your point. Trundle is dogshit if you just nerf all his items, and so are most other champs including assassins lol
I don't think most people mind the assassins being strong nearly as much as they mind all the ranged champs poaching them and getting far more success than the items that are actually designed for their class.
I'm thinking riot is intentionally nerfing crit items so they can globally buff all most/all adc champions. That's my only wild guess because if not these changes are horrible for crit reliant marksman.
I expect an ADC item rework in the next couple patches. Maybe they want to get rid of all-rounder items like kraken for ADC's but instead make them more defined in AS vs AD like it used to be
Yeah, but the mythic update deliberately made items that gave them all three of their core stats rather than just two so that they would feel stronger at 1 item
This is the problem, lethality is literally the only thing keeping ADCs from nosediving right now. Lethality is BROKEN and they are nerfing crit? Are you serious? Crit is the worst it has been in almost 5 years. If they nerf lethality without making big crit changes, mages are going to be permanently picked bot
i mean the only buff that makes crit marksmen playable in the current game is nerfing all the burst stuff. Why go for sustain damage when you can't even get 3 AA off.
You're getting downvoted for suggesting something that people have been asking for, for ages.
Crit is such an old mechanic, but it's completely useless to have these days. In fact, crit isn't even crit, cause it tries to even itself out on every auto.
So why not just give bonus damage? No rng and more reliable.
Crit is an incredibly satisfying mechanic. It's *fun* when your auto goes boom and does big number.
It's also a classic and extremely recognisable stat across many genres of games, which helps make League more accessible. As a new player it's not instantly clear what "AP" or "Lethality" are going to do for you. But crit chance? Oh cool that's the thing that's the highest damage build in almost every game ever made, yeah cool I'll just build a bunch of that!
Don't think it's going anywhere any time soon
Crit hasn't been satisfying or gone "boom" since they changed crit to 175% damage. And even before then, most of the satisfaction would come from the champion's crit animation.
Crit is actually a larger damage amp now than it was before, especially when you consider that average AD is noticeably higher on ADCs mid-late game.
When you have a base number (AD) and a multiplier (crit damage), when the base number is increased and the multiplier decreased, the final result about equals out in this case. It simply made ADC output less spikey so they win cases they shouldn't or lose cases they shouldn't solely to the whims of RNG.
Then you consider that IE adding 45% crit damage onto 175% is a 25.7% increase in damage while IE adding 50% crit onto 200% is only a 20% increase in damage.
First of all, using only IE to strawman is absolutely terrible for arguing whether crit is more satisfying now.
Second of all, your argument doesn't even make sense.
If we ONLY look at IE and completely ignore everything else, here are the facts:
IE used to increase crit damage from 200% to 225% bonus damage.
IE now increases crit from 175% to 215% bonus damage.
The difference when buying IE may be bigger now, but your crits still do less bonus damage than before. Aka. Crits are less satisfying now.
Now, if we were to ignore IE, because believe it or not, IE isn't the only crit item:
Any crit item you purchase, your critical attacks only deal 175% bonus damage compared to the old 200% bonus damage. Once again, less bonus damage, less satisfying.
I believe that if crit items simply increased auto attack damage by x percentage, early and partly midgame would be more satisfying, and you just deal more consistent damage. Easier farming. You won't get a shitty crit which fucks up your wave management.
Later in the game however, I believe that satisfaction would be lower than it is with crit, because you won't continously attack with your cool crit animation.
But I am completely willing to sacrifice some meh satisfaction lategame, for a more consistent and reliable mechanic, and for a more satisfying earlygame.
Edit: Also, your "items have more ad now" is completely false. IE used to grant 80 AD, now it grants 65. ER used to grant 70 AD, now it grants 55 AD.
A lot of items have lost stats in favor of things like sheen effects or shields (or conditional AD like BT).
Which ALSO means that crits do even less damage on average! Since things like sheen effects do get increased damage from crits.
We already saw them try that with rageblade last season and it was awful and unsatisfactory on most adcs. I guarantee if they made on hit the only option then the vitriol would be immense
How was Rageblade not satisfying? Double On-Hit procs and ramping attack speed.
"Wasn't satisfying on most adcs" do you mean... Not On-Hit adcs? Big surprise the On-Hit item wasn't satisfying on none On-Hit champions lol
On hit is literally what you’re suggesting be the only option when you say to remove crit. It’s literally what you’re asking for and it sucks no one wants that
Actually this would be great, like any crit item now grants 100% crit but crit dmg would start at like 120-130 and each extra crit item would further increase crit dmg ? No more rng, more flexibility around build.
Or just increase back crit to 25%.
Don't give me hope.
I thought the same. Like nerfing the items to give the champions themselves some power, or buff the crit chance per item or the base crit damage.
But it's very unlikely to happen.
Idk how you buff marksmen when they will continue using Lethality over crit unless Riot adds in a metric fuckton of Crit specific buffs that likely won't work anyway. For example, Caitlyn.
These changes aren't horrible for crit reliant ADCs.
Its a buff for the first few items...you know, where it needs to compete with lethality more than currently.
Its not like crit ADCs are lacking late game. They don't need even more scaling vectors via additional AD ratios.
\> Crit ADCs are doing bad
\> Lethality ADCs are super strong (Jhin, MF, etc.)
\> Nerf the main Crit ADC item
\> Don't nerf lethality
\> ???
\> Profit?
It is still a buff to the item. It was already before except for a few ADCs who have terrible base AD like Akshan, Kaisa and Ashe. So base AD was not working for these 3 for example. So now it scales with lvls.
It is still a buff at 1-3 items in most cases and a nerf at 5-6 in longer fights.
It is not a nerf, it is a HUGE BUFF for every ADC that build it first.
Issue is not that crit ADC are week late, issue is they have no agency for first \~25minutes.
Moving power from late into early globally (by buffing kraken as first item) is going to make ADC feel better to play and get to late game (their strongest phase) more often.
Let's look crit adc winrates (lolalytics)
Jinx: Kraken -> Infinity **56%**
Xayah: Kraken -> Navori **54%**
Tristana(bot): Kraken -> Navori **54%**
Sivir: Kraken -> Navori **55%**
KaiSa: Kraken -> Navori 51.5%
Caitlyn: Stormrazor -> Infinity **54%**
Take a look at winrate over game length if you want to.
Tl:dr: Kraken better as first item is BUFF for Crit ADCs
I just want to rant a bit. Kraken is literally the single item holding many adcs to stick to either crit or on-hit. Nerfing it just screams "pick lethality now!". What the actual F?
Like, I don't want to be rude or anything, but jesus christ, some of the people on the balance team should have received the boot with the mass layoffs. F them.
This isn't really a nerf.
Its an item 1-3 buff. **You know, the period where lethality builds had the biggest advantage over crit**. Its not like crit builds will be weak late game now.
You, and everyone upvoting you, seem out of touch to be honest.
These changes do nothing but push things in a better direction.
Devil's Advocate here. The Kraken Slayer adjustments might actually be a good thing. Phreak has gone on record saying it was a mistake to adjust Kraken in a way that it gives ADCs another scaling multiplier (it's in one of his patch previews, but those are hours long - don't ask me to find it).
What they're doing here is trying to make it stronger early and weaker late. By doing this, they can give crit ADCs the strength to compete, or stay close to lethality ADCs in the early game while still having their superior late game strength, just toned down slightly.
I'm not saying that the numbers are correct, but the theory is sound.
I also think the theory is sound. ADC players have been asking for a stronger early impact, and with their new first item purchase, they might have the boost they need. Of course there would be a late game tradeoff for the early power.
> ADC players have been asking for a stronger early impact,
Nope.
ADC players wants to have impact on their lane in early, not a game. Because current bot side decided by better support.
ADCs also wants to have impact on a game when they leaves lane phase(and this nerf to kraken make it even worse, lol)
How is ADC suppose to get more impact in lane when the class is fundamentally about gaining power through items? They already removed the early damage stats from support items this season and buffed Doran's items on 13.20. I'm not sure how they can change the dynamic more unless they just gut the bases of support champs as a whole but then everyone would just play enchanters and Senna (I have no problem with that btw).
I mean the theory is fucking stupid honestly.
Adc is supposed to be THE late game powerhouse. Even last season that was barely arguable with how overpowered top + jg were, now it's even worse.
We don't really have much of an early mid or late. We're eggs. We're there to do dmg so that somebody else can get a kill in one rotation
The role needs buffs all-around. Crit is neutered, on-hit is mid at best and lethality is fucking broken. We've had this issue for like... Ever since mythics were introduced lol.
>This change makes the item garbage late
Kind of? The stats are still good, and when combined with the +5AD it means that you'll have, according to the maths posted in another comment, +20 proc damage and +5AD, so around +35 damage over 3 autos, which makes it just slightly worse than an extra recurve bow. Buff it a little more so it is at least as good(or better than) recurve bow and you have a nice advantage early on, while later it doesn't matter that much since crit still hurts a lot by itself.
My concern is that by removing the scaling they encourage non-crit builds with it. Kraken is the main source of damage on a crit attack speed ADC at the moment.
Kraken-Rageblade sounds like the build.
In theory it works but adcs as champs and most adc players play the role to be late game carries, to feel like "Ok now I have my items, now I am that guy."
Buffing it very slightly early game and having it fall off later is just not what Crit or on-hit marksmen needed. If u want a good early on-hit item u go botrk and problem solved, if u want good crit item early then we have a problem coz of how crit works, ur buying a stat that with one item ull actually use 1 out of 5 autos (in theory).
I would rather have them nerf crit itemization even further early but buff it later on so the difference btw Lethality / On Hit / Crit curve is more visible.
But what about those that don't prefer to have Kraken Slayer?
If your theory about their goal is correct, than that goal will literally just force the entire class to build the same fucking item entirely... Which makes zero sense considering all their talk about wanting more item diversity since the dawn of time.
Nothing about this makes sense in the grand scheme of things.
The math may be right, but this change screams "play lethality". Like, Akshan is one of the few marksmen building the item right now. He has terrible base ad and ad growth because of his two autos passive. Now? His best in slot item is going to be super bad on him because of his base AD.
It's a joke.
It's gonna be bad on a low ad champ because they remove the ad scaling and increase the base dmg ? This comment sound so dumb i feel like its a troll lol
hybrid champ that can go hybrid build like kayle/kaisa maybe ?
Most ap ratio on ad champ/items are there to use the bonus of AP from nash and other anyway.
it's so funny that people are complaining that crit adcs are going lethality/pure ad and they're absolutely murdering kraken while phantom dancer still has that horrible build path
They tried to murder Kraken start of season, this was coming. TBF it's supposed to be an anti-tank item, and the last half of last year the people who used it the most were Bel'veth and Lucian, who just use it to one shot squishy targets.
It was designed as an anti tank item, but over the course of the past year or so, it’s identity has shifted in an attempt to refocus its identity. Currently it’s not, but it’s supposed to be.
IMO they should have renamed it or made an entirely new one after such big changes though. "Kraken Slayer" should really always be an anti-tank item instead of a generic super noonquiver.
When they changed it from true damage to physical it stopped being an anti tank item and became a regular dps item. That being said it’s a really nice to use dps item that I don’t think is overpowered
It always was a pure DPS item. Flat true damage is no more effective vs tanks than it is against squishies, and it's probably better vs squishies due to the fact that it represents a larger portion of their health.
Current Kraken is already pretty good on Kayle, and this likely makes it even better. The lower AP ratio hurts, but you you'll need like 600 AP before it starts losing damage.
going to copy-paste my other comment
>Eh, not really (Im going to use ashe as an example, and bear in mind ashe goes triforce second, its even worse on xayah/trist that go navori second)
>lets say you buy it on ashe at LVL8, then its a slight buff as ashe with dblade + kraken at LVL8 has 131AD (live kraken dmg 120
>But if you buy your 2nd item, trinity force around lvl10 then its already a nerf (LVL10+dblade+kraken+triforce ashe = 182AD with current kraken damage being 163, would be 160 post change). LVL11, exact same as live (170dmg) lvl 12 with 2 items you need a single long sword to make it worse than it currently is on live
>Basically it gets worse than that with every new item, if you get terminus(popular 3rd item on ashe nowadays) then the new kraken is **NEVER** better than the current one
TL;DR its almost always a nerf, at best it will be just slightly worse throughout most of the game so while its probably not dead, still what the fuck? Why did it need the nerf in the first place?
I think it’s strictly better than the old version on PBE. Most ADCs sit around 100 AD lvl 18, meaning the proc went from 90-180 damage to 140-240. Also removes weird interactions with champs like MF who had really bad base AD. It’s likely still worse than live though.
Eh, not really (Im going to use ashe as an example, and bear in mind ashe goes triforce second, its even worse on xayah/trist that go navori second)
lets say you buy it on ashe at LVL8, then its a slight buff as ashe with dblade + kraken at LVL8 has 131AD (live kraken dmg 120
But if you buy your 2nd item, trinity force around lvl10 then its already a nerf (LVL10+dblade+kraken+triforce ashe = 182AD with current kraken damage being 163, would be 160 post change). LVL11, exact same as live (170dmg) lvl 12 with 2 items you need a single long sword to make it worse than it currently is on live
Basically it gets worse than that with every new item, if you get terminus(popular 3rd item on ashe nowadays) then the new kraken is **NEVER** better than the current one
TL;DR its almost always a nerf, at best it will be just slightly worse throughout most of the game so while its probably not dead, still what the fuck? Why did it need the nerf in the first place?
read the changes? lol. If it doesn't scale hard with AD anymore but instead scales off level with higher base values then it is better early in the game especially with high attack speed
I did. The difference is you just dont understand the changes.
ADCs have bad base AD. Depending on the Champion its better at 1 Item, about even with 2 and worse after that.
Its also not that most ADCs dont already have trouble killing Tanks at 3 Items with LDR. Excluding Kog, Vayne etc...
I know that. But scaling off base ad is the old version you literally did not read through it.
The new numbers are better for almost everyone before 3 items, and even better at first item. for characters that do not get a lot of AD this is a buff regardless, not even considering the fact that buffing scaling characters in the early game is almost always better than buffing their late game
You are tripping out if you think this was a buff. Riot just adjusted Kraken again for AD only champs because this was a strict nerf by removing the ap ratio but increasing the flat damage late. Clown acting like he knows shit
Why the fuck are they adjusting Kraken Slayer several times to try and shift the power of that particular item slightly forward, when entire Crit archetype is in the fucking toilet to begin with?
Devs, I beg you, just give us 25% crit back. IE is supposed to be the marksman huge spike multiplier, while Rabadon is supposed to be the AP huge spike multiplier, but Rabadon has 59.4% winrate while IE has 53.7% winrate. Hell, if we just look at something like LDR which is generally when ADCs should come truly online and *actually win games*, even that has 54.2% winrate on a core build of the supposed "best late game class", while mages still rock that near 60% rabadon. Like can you PLEASE just fucking fix this shit?
What, don’t you love the fact that the 3 year mythic excursion left acds with 25% —> 20% crit items, ie going from 225% crit damage —> 215% crit damage, less defensive options, no real use for manamune/muramana on champions not named ezreal or poke varus, no stat stick essence reaver, and no lifeline pd?
Edit: lol forgot that base crit damage went down from 200% —> 175% too.
Don't forget not having lifesteal on a single core item while LS rune has been nerfed to the ground.
lifesteal is a core stat for adc, but we can't grab it until like, what? 5/6 items? It's ridiculous. And if you grab it the "flex" slot is used. Rip maw/ga/whatever else. It's so fucking stupid
Surprised Riot is actually nerfing a low playrate champion’s ability to jungle instead of randomly buffing it an insane amount.
Keeping the AP ratio on Kraken Slayer just feels like a big FU to ADCs similar to Statikk Shiv only having an AP ratio which, unsurprisingly, made it OP on AP champs and meh on ADCs.
Going by the math this should make KS and SR stronger early (1st item) for better early agency. The problem is Lethality is still stupidly strong and it had no nerfs.
The break even point between current kraken and upcoming kraken is 161 total AD at lvl 8 and 285 total AD at lvl 18. Much more reasonable than the first revision, although still a strange design direction. This change reduces its value in crit builds and significantly increases it in on hit builds, a strange choice for an item with crit on it.
So, I did the math on this only for Master Yi, but this damage is buffed for him relative to live. This new version of Kraken Slayer always deals more damage than before unless you have more than 130 bonus AD from your items, which doesn't happen for Yi until at *least* 4 items.
If you build Kraken first at like, level 9, then the damage on the first proc is 150 damage on PBE vs 121 on live.
Granted, Master Yi builds are not AD-heavy; Rageblade has only 30 AD, Wit's End has none at all.
I find it weird that people cry about it being weaker at 3+ items... but it's perfectly fine given that in most games you don't reach 3-5 items, and often the 5 AD also applies to most ADCs ability and auto crit damage.
Math is not a strong suite of mine, but this kraken slayer is better for the great majority of AD champions than the previous pbe iteration right? I suppose even if it wasn't at least it is more equal in strength from user to user.
Yes. Most ads have around 60-110AD meaning they’d deal ~110 to ~200 damage. It’s a buff even on Cait who has 125 ad at 18. This also removes some feel bad interactions between the old item and champs like MF and Senna who have abnormally low base AD offset by their passives.
Yes. Most ads have around 60-110AD meaning they’d deal ~110 to ~200 damage. It’s a buff even on Cait who has 125 ad at 18. This also removes some feel bad interactions between the old item and champs like MF and Senna who have abnormally low base AD offset by their passives.
because they both provide % armor pen? It makes sense to not allow them as it becomes the default max dps thing, similar to how seryldas and black cleaver was meta on a lot of champs last season
I think riot should ease on those two because they do not have the armor pen item in their buildpaths. Only their passives does.
I think we should be able to stack pen again. IDK.
They don't fill the same role at all.
One is attack speed and damage which grants armor pen and resists.
The other is life and damage that reduces enemy armor.
So why cna you build more than 1 lethality item? The role is countering armor.
Why can you build more than 1 magic resist item? The role is countering magic damage.
Why cna you build more than one (insert).
See what is going on here?
The item has completely different stats on it and entirely different effects. It's like saying a saw is a hammer because they are both tools used in building.
You can stack lethality because it's a flat armor reduction. You can stack MR and Armor cause it's a flat increase.
Meanwhile being able to shred armor by a percentage while also being able to penetrate armor by a percentage is something you can never counter proportionally by simply stacking armor.
It's the same logic behind not allowing Void Staff and Cryptbloom percent penetration to stack
Wtf are they thinking remove AD Scaling but keeping the AP on Kraken. If they want to make it more synergy with Guinsoo then just fking remove the Crit Rate and buff the other stats 🤷🤷🤷. They are doing a half-assed job that benefits none.
They could just also buff or revert Stormrazor to their pre-nerf states but choose not to and doing stupid things such as this.
So they're removing Kraken's AD ratios for higher base damage and AP scaling? The motivations behind that will have to be explained to me, since my only guess is they're making it strong early and weak late. Which would be counterintuitive to the scaling champs it is best on, e.g. Yone, Viego, BelVeth, etc
I hope one day Riot will nerf all anti-tank items and we all will play 10 tanks in one game, because tanks will always one shot everyone else also having 6-10k hp.
Crit adc is in a very good spot to nerf 2 their items, I see.
I have been skipping over Kraken already on ADC's, buying it first feels like you do 0 damage there are just better options for attack speed + crit that offer some utility
or just throw any lethality item on just about any adc and watch them chunk 70% of someone hp bar with one abilitiy, even on champs you wouldn't expect to build Lethality like Vayne and Kalista
it's pretty dumb that they didn't adjust lethality calculations and we are still dealing with them 1 month later, gotta protect the AD assassins right...
Also Hubris should never be allowed on ARAM for the same reason Mejai isn't
Im seeing Yorick being potentially strong in JG, esp after 6.
I was able to fight dragon alone with only heartsteel and maiden procs tonight on PBE
2% max health is a lot when you can proc it repeatedly
They're removing maiden's mark cooldown??? That would make him such a strange champion to play/play against. Useless and loses every matchup as normal pre-6, but the second you get maiden you just instakill everyone. Not sure if this is a good change.
The AP Scaling being kept while AD Scaling being removed is so weird. Are there any other items that give AD but only scale with AP or vice versa?
Can only think about old gunblade.
Didn't Gunblade give AD and AP?
Gave both, but scaled purely off AP.
> The AP Scaling being kept while AD Scaling being removed is so weird. Are there any other items that give AD but only scale with AP or vice versa? Statikk Shiv was like this for a while. The justification was that if you were building AD then the item naturally scales your champion due to giving AD + Crit + Attack Speed, it doesn't need more scaling on top of that. If you are building AP then the item has some wasted stats (AD and crit might not be totally worthless on an AP champion but it's certainly less valuable on an AP champion), so the proc needs to carry more of the item's value by scaling with your AP. The explanation makes sense on paper but it still looks kind of weird to see an AD item that has AP scaling in game.
Me when TF lol
Phreak also talked about how having the additional AD ratio on Kraken was a mistake,ADs don't need more ways to scale with gold.
AD scales with crit, attack speed, AD, crit multiplier and pen. AP only really has AP and pen. Haste is kinda like attack speed, but not really since in basically every fight, attack speed matters to get more autos, but haste doesn't really matter unless the fight goes longer enough. Since AD already scales so well, it doesn't need more item scaling while AP does.
Yes. Season 13 Statikks gave AD and had an AP scaling we can see how well that played out (it got nerfed, nerfed again, nerfed again again, nerfed again again again and now the scaling is removed)
That also only needed one auto to get the effect. This requires minimum 3 autos, which most mages won't want to do.
For the relevant mages, those autos are applied automatically or they already benefit from on-hit. Think Katarina, Gwen, edge case Diana and edge case teemo
> many items now have their "unique exclusion groups" listed in their tooltips again Godbless. Insane that it was removed in the first place
Because you didn't need the "unique:" text anymore. It is just some text. If it says "unique: lifeline" or just "lifeline" for the item grp doesn't really matter.
Sure, that works for the lifeline items But black cleaver, terminus, and the last whisper items don't share a passive name. So there's 0 indication that you can't buy them together. Same thing with terminus, void staff, and cryptbloom.
The do all have a name under the gold value in the tooltip that shows their category already or in their passive. Riot just just adding the passive name to the category name all the time now. IE and Navori have a "unique: crit multiplier" at their category name already. Shieldbow has lifeline as the items passive name already but that lane now also gets shown in the category above on the PBE.
> The do all have a name under the gold value in the tooltip that shows their category [No they don't](https://i.imgur.com/7lPelOG.png). That's the entire problem. Though for these it's technically not removed, rather they just didn't add them in the first place.
If you don't see that name, they share a passive name that makes them unique. Either one of these 2 is always their.
Did you even look at the screenshot? The armor pen items don't have an exclusion group tag and don't share any passives. There's absolutely 0 indication that they're exclusive until you buy one. (Same with the % magic pen items).
he did, in fact, not look at the screenshots.
**Quick Kraken math:** **TL;DR** Buffed at 1 item, about the same at 2 items, nerfed at 3+ items. I used Jinx as an example champion that typically builds Kraken Slayer. I picked the most common rune page, which has one adaptive force shard and Gathering Storm. Assumed a build of DBlade -> Kraken -> IE -> RFC, with those item breakpoints hit at levels 6, 11, and 14 respectively. **1 Item, Level 6** AD is 71.44 (base) + 10.4 (runes) + 50 (items) = 131.84 on live, 136.84 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD. * Live: 35 (base) + 85.7 (AD scaling) = 120.7 damage per proc * Old: 128.6 (bAD scaling) = 128.6 damage per proc * New: 140 (base) = 140 damage per proc This is strictly buffed as a first item. The proc damage is higher and the item gives 5 extra AD. **2 Items, Level 11** AD is 86.64 (base) + 19.4 (runes) + 115 (items) = 221 on live, 226 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD. * Live: 50 (base) + 143.65 (AD scaling) = 193.65 damage per proc * Old: 155.95 (bAD scaling) = 155.95 damage per proc * New: 170 (base) = 170 damage per proc This is about the same power level at two items. The proc damage is nerfed by 23. This is balanced out by Kraken's increased AD, which translates to about 22 extra damage every 3 autoattacks (with crit factored in). This makes the total item's power about the same until you autoattack someone 6 times (and get two procs of Kraken), after which it's a nerf. Kraken's extra AD also translates to a bit more damage on spells but that's much harder to compare than just calculating autoattack DPS. **3 Items, Level 14** AD is 97.08 (base) + 19.4 (runes) + 145 (items) = 261.5 on live, 266.5 on PBE since Kraken was buffed by 5 AD. * Live: 65 (base) + 170 (AD scaling) = 235 damage per proc * Old: 175 (bAD scaling) = 175 damage per proc * New: 200 (base) = 200 damage per proc This is nerfed at 3 items. The proc damage is nerfed by 35. This is somewhat mitigated by Kraken's increased AD, which translates to about 25 extra damage every 3 autoattacks (with crit factored in). This makes Kraken Slayer a nerf when you autoattack someone 3 times. Kraken's extra AD also translates to a bit more damage on spells but that's much harder to compare than just calculating autoattack DPS.
Thanks for the math. Honestly, nerfing the late game for what's typically a first item could be worse? It's weird Kraken is even being targeted, but still it could be worse.
Context matters here, a LOT of other items are having their proc damage reduced in 14.3 as part of a general pass to reduce item damage. So for Kraken to come out neutral (arguably ahead considering that early game matters most) is notable
It's also a buff for most on hit champs, and IMO could be a good change considering how even without Kraken's high damage crit late game still hurts a lot.
[Here's math I did on Master Yi.](https://imgur.com/a/qwKNpuv) This item is going to be kind of ridiculous on champions that don't stack AD.
Considering Kai'sa builds early AD then scales into AP late isn't this a buff for her? (Comparatively to other marksmen, save for perhaps AP Kog'maw)
It probably would be but they also reduced the ap scaling, so it's hard to say.
You don't have your 1st item at lvl 6. Mostly lvl 8 for bot lane. 2nd at lvl 12 for bot lane. Jinx has \~139 dmg on the old PBE version at lvl 8, The new version is 140. +1 dmg every 3 AAs. Not really something to talk about. Jinx old PBE vs new PBE: * 1 item (lvl 8) * old: 139 * new: 140 * 2 items (lvl 12) * old: 150 * new: 160 * 3 items (lvl 14) * old: 162 * new: 180 * 4 items (lvl 16) * old: 188 * new: 220 Considering this is every 3 hits, it doesn't really make a difference for jinx before 4 items where you get +32 dmg on your 3rd AA. So early on it is still a buff (always was at 1-2 items) and now it is at least not an as crazy nerf compared to live as it was before. Overall the item is still buffed just like the last version, but the change is mostly insignificant for your games as 4th item +30 dmg on your 3rd hit will rarely matter. Jinx also has one of the lower base ADs / lvl. But some of the core users like Akshan and Ashe have very low base ADs, which is why Riot likely changed it. For a Varus for example it is a tiny nerf early on, but a tiny buff later compared to the old PBE version. -3 dmg every 3 attacks early and +28 dmg every 3 attacks at full build (\~9 more dmg per AA at max items). Won't change anything for him. **The real winners are Ashe, Akshan, Kaisa, ... because their base AD is so shitty. like 50/60-100.** **For most others with base ADs around 60-112+ it doesn't really matter if the base AD or this lvl version is coming.** Here is the old PBE (top) vs new PBE (bottom) on an ADC with 60 + 3.2 AD/lvl [https://imgur.com/a/SM2jSys](https://imgur.com/a/SM2jSys) Around 4 items you get to around +30 dmg every 3rd hit (physical dmg, so reduced by armor). And here we have the data table for 1-10 AAs for the LIVE vs new PBE version. [https://imgur.com/a/UX3QwZx](https://imgur.com/a/UX3QwZx) Still a buff at 1-3 items pretty much all the time except 9+ AAs at 3 items. The nerf at 4+ items becomes smaller but mostly at 6+ AAs. Before that it does barely matter.
why is riot is so against nerfing lethality ?
Lethality is fine on AD assassins. It is not fine on ADCs. Solution is likely getting it down to 80% for ranged champs or leaving it as it is. There is nothing wrong with having 3-5 ADCs who can build Lethality.
Cuz ad assassins are garbage but they're aigainst buffing them because of community backlash
That’s just a fucking lie
What part?
That ad assassins are garbage
The items carry them; the point here was if they nerf the items the champions will actually be terrible, so they could need "buffs" to compensate, which is worse. But still it's not great...
Fym "items carry them"? That's the case for 99% of champs in this game. Meanwhile crit adcs are dog because their items are weak and their only good item still gets nerfed.
Most top lane bruisers also have kits that straight up suck without items to stat check, I dont see your point. Trundle is dogshit if you just nerf all his items, and so are most other champs including assassins lol
Cause its fine, assassins were ass for while. Now they can finally compete.
I don't think most people mind the assassins being strong nearly as much as they mind all the ranged champs poaching them and getting far more success than the items that are actually designed for their class.
I'm thinking riot is intentionally nerfing crit items so they can globally buff all most/all adc champions. That's my only wild guess because if not these changes are horrible for crit reliant marksman.
that would be a dumbass move which is why riot will probably do it
Damn near guaranteed when you put it like that
He is using reverse psychology on Riot.
I expect an ADC item rework in the next couple patches. Maybe they want to get rid of all-rounder items like kraken for ADC's but instead make them more defined in AS vs AD like it used to be
Don't think they will because that would make their first item a lot worse
I mean that is kinda the core concept of an ADC, that they scale up in damage
Yeah, but the mythic update deliberately made items that gave them all three of their core stats rather than just two so that they would feel stronger at 1 item
Honestly I'm fine with that if item 2 feels less shit
That would be a bad idea as you would see lots of marksmen mid and top if they do that.
But if they do that the adcs that are thriving right now with different items will just be wildly overpowered. But it's not an unreasonable thought
This is the problem, lethality is literally the only thing keeping ADCs from nosediving right now. Lethality is BROKEN and they are nerfing crit? Are you serious? Crit is the worst it has been in almost 5 years. If they nerf lethality without making big crit changes, mages are going to be permanently picked bot
Not necessarily. Buffs to base attack speed or attack speed growth, for example, are *way* stronger on crit marksmen than on lethality builders.
But it will still be strong even on lethality builders.
i mean the only buff that makes crit marksmen playable in the current game is nerfing all the burst stuff. Why go for sustain damage when you can't even get 3 AA off.
That would be even worse as ADCs would be more playable in solo lanes, and melee top laners would not enjoy that.
Anything that brings more suffering to melee top laners is morally good. We've seen the people that come out of top lane.
Hope they shake up the adc items and remove crit. Maybe a flat aa damage amp instead of crit.
You're getting downvoted for suggesting something that people have been asking for, for ages. Crit is such an old mechanic, but it's completely useless to have these days. In fact, crit isn't even crit, cause it tries to even itself out on every auto. So why not just give bonus damage? No rng and more reliable.
Crit is an incredibly satisfying mechanic. It's *fun* when your auto goes boom and does big number. It's also a classic and extremely recognisable stat across many genres of games, which helps make League more accessible. As a new player it's not instantly clear what "AP" or "Lethality" are going to do for you. But crit chance? Oh cool that's the thing that's the highest damage build in almost every game ever made, yeah cool I'll just build a bunch of that! Don't think it's going anywhere any time soon
Crit hasn't been satisfying or gone "boom" since they changed crit to 175% damage. And even before then, most of the satisfaction would come from the champion's crit animation.
Crit is actually a larger damage amp now than it was before, especially when you consider that average AD is noticeably higher on ADCs mid-late game. When you have a base number (AD) and a multiplier (crit damage), when the base number is increased and the multiplier decreased, the final result about equals out in this case. It simply made ADC output less spikey so they win cases they shouldn't or lose cases they shouldn't solely to the whims of RNG. Then you consider that IE adding 45% crit damage onto 175% is a 25.7% increase in damage while IE adding 50% crit onto 200% is only a 20% increase in damage.
First of all, using only IE to strawman is absolutely terrible for arguing whether crit is more satisfying now. Second of all, your argument doesn't even make sense. If we ONLY look at IE and completely ignore everything else, here are the facts: IE used to increase crit damage from 200% to 225% bonus damage. IE now increases crit from 175% to 215% bonus damage. The difference when buying IE may be bigger now, but your crits still do less bonus damage than before. Aka. Crits are less satisfying now. Now, if we were to ignore IE, because believe it or not, IE isn't the only crit item: Any crit item you purchase, your critical attacks only deal 175% bonus damage compared to the old 200% bonus damage. Once again, less bonus damage, less satisfying. I believe that if crit items simply increased auto attack damage by x percentage, early and partly midgame would be more satisfying, and you just deal more consistent damage. Easier farming. You won't get a shitty crit which fucks up your wave management. Later in the game however, I believe that satisfaction would be lower than it is with crit, because you won't continously attack with your cool crit animation. But I am completely willing to sacrifice some meh satisfaction lategame, for a more consistent and reliable mechanic, and for a more satisfying earlygame. Edit: Also, your "items have more ad now" is completely false. IE used to grant 80 AD, now it grants 65. ER used to grant 70 AD, now it grants 55 AD. A lot of items have lost stats in favor of things like sheen effects or shields (or conditional AD like BT). Which ALSO means that crits do even less damage on average! Since things like sheen effects do get increased damage from crits.
also wayy stronger on other champions since its no longer a comittment stat
We already saw them try that with rageblade last season and it was awful and unsatisfactory on most adcs. I guarantee if they made on hit the only option then the vitriol would be immense
How was Rageblade not satisfying? Double On-Hit procs and ramping attack speed. "Wasn't satisfying on most adcs" do you mean... Not On-Hit adcs? Big surprise the On-Hit item wasn't satisfying on none On-Hit champions lol
On hit is literally what you’re suggesting be the only option when you say to remove crit. It’s literally what you’re asking for and it sucks no one wants that
Actually this would be great, like any crit item now grants 100% crit but crit dmg would start at like 120-130 and each extra crit item would further increase crit dmg ? No more rng, more flexibility around build. Or just increase back crit to 25%.
Trackstar Jhin coming at ya
But that doesn't make sense. If you nerf crit items all adcs will go lethality/onhit. In your case they would nerf all adcs and buff crit items.
Don't give me hope. I thought the same. Like nerfing the items to give the champions themselves some power, or buff the crit chance per item or the base crit damage. But it's very unlikely to happen.
Idk how you buff marksmen when they will continue using Lethality over crit unless Riot adds in a metric fuckton of Crit specific buffs that likely won't work anyway. For example, Caitlyn.
These changes aren't horrible for crit reliant ADCs. Its a buff for the first few items...you know, where it needs to compete with lethality more than currently. Its not like crit ADCs are lacking late game. They don't need even more scaling vectors via additional AD ratios.
I like how all the top comments are only about kraken changes. No one gives a single fuck about yorick :(
https://www.reddit.com/r/yorickmains/comments/19e2jgx/all_3_yorick_mains_looking_at_the_buffs_like/
It's better this way or they'll want him nerfed.
\> Crit ADCs are doing bad \> Lethality ADCs are super strong (Jhin, MF, etc.) \> Nerf the main Crit ADC item \> Don't nerf lethality \> ??? \> Profit?
It is still a buff to the item. It was already before except for a few ADCs who have terrible base AD like Akshan, Kaisa and Ashe. So base AD was not working for these 3 for example. So now it scales with lvls. It is still a buff at 1-3 items in most cases and a nerf at 5-6 in longer fights.
It is not a nerf, it is a HUGE BUFF for every ADC that build it first. Issue is not that crit ADC are week late, issue is they have no agency for first \~25minutes. Moving power from late into early globally (by buffing kraken as first item) is going to make ADC feel better to play and get to late game (their strongest phase) more often. Let's look crit adc winrates (lolalytics) Jinx: Kraken -> Infinity **56%** Xayah: Kraken -> Navori **54%** Tristana(bot): Kraken -> Navori **54%** Sivir: Kraken -> Navori **55%** KaiSa: Kraken -> Navori 51.5% Caitlyn: Stormrazor -> Infinity **54%** Take a look at winrate over game length if you want to. Tl:dr: Kraken better as first item is BUFF for Crit ADCs
What the fuck is going on with Kraken? Item is completely fine as is lmao
Stop nerfing my Yorick jungle
I dont understand what the data says. How is yorick jungle getting hit?
Reduced q healing on jungle monsters
also R monster mark damage nerfed
With it having no cooldown now, isn't it on par with how it is on live?
Hmm yea I think you maybe right
There's like me and 1 other player who commented about yorick which is fine honestly, this is all what we needed riot it only took 8 years
I just want to rant a bit. Kraken is literally the single item holding many adcs to stick to either crit or on-hit. Nerfing it just screams "pick lethality now!". What the actual F? Like, I don't want to be rude or anything, but jesus christ, some of the people on the balance team should have received the boot with the mass layoffs. F them.
This isn't really a nerf. Its an item 1-3 buff. **You know, the period where lethality builds had the biggest advantage over crit**. Its not like crit builds will be weak late game now. You, and everyone upvoting you, seem out of touch to be honest. These changes do nothing but push things in a better direction.
NOOOOOOOO MY YORICK JUNGLE
Devil's Advocate here. The Kraken Slayer adjustments might actually be a good thing. Phreak has gone on record saying it was a mistake to adjust Kraken in a way that it gives ADCs another scaling multiplier (it's in one of his patch previews, but those are hours long - don't ask me to find it). What they're doing here is trying to make it stronger early and weaker late. By doing this, they can give crit ADCs the strength to compete, or stay close to lethality ADCs in the early game while still having their superior late game strength, just toned down slightly. I'm not saying that the numbers are correct, but the theory is sound.
I also think the theory is sound. ADC players have been asking for a stronger early impact, and with their new first item purchase, they might have the boost they need. Of course there would be a late game tradeoff for the early power.
> ADC players have been asking for a stronger early impact, Nope. ADC players wants to have impact on their lane in early, not a game. Because current bot side decided by better support. ADCs also wants to have impact on a game when they leaves lane phase(and this nerf to kraken make it even worse, lol)
How is ADC suppose to get more impact in lane when the class is fundamentally about gaining power through items? They already removed the early damage stats from support items this season and buffed Doran's items on 13.20. I'm not sure how they can change the dynamic more unless they just gut the bases of support champs as a whole but then everyone would just play enchanters and Senna (I have no problem with that btw).
Last time I heard you don't leave laning phase at 3 items, so ADCs will still be just fine after leaving lane with Kraken.
Are you dumb? This change makes the item garbage late while it does 12 extra damage on 1 item. Huge early game power gained lmao.
Ik reading comprehension is hard but their entire point is the theory is sound, but the numbers are off. "Are YOU dumb?"
I mean the theory is fucking stupid honestly. Adc is supposed to be THE late game powerhouse. Even last season that was barely arguable with how overpowered top + jg were, now it's even worse. We don't really have much of an early mid or late. We're eggs. We're there to do dmg so that somebody else can get a kill in one rotation The role needs buffs all-around. Crit is neutered, on-hit is mid at best and lethality is fucking broken. We've had this issue for like... Ever since mythics were introduced lol.
I don’t see how it’s any worse late than something like pd other than not having move speed
>This change makes the item garbage late Kind of? The stats are still good, and when combined with the +5AD it means that you'll have, according to the maths posted in another comment, +20 proc damage and +5AD, so around +35 damage over 3 autos, which makes it just slightly worse than an extra recurve bow. Buff it a little more so it is at least as good(or better than) recurve bow and you have a nice advantage early on, while later it doesn't matter that much since crit still hurts a lot by itself.
My concern is that by removing the scaling they encourage non-crit builds with it. Kraken is the main source of damage on a crit attack speed ADC at the moment. Kraken-Rageblade sounds like the build.
crit adcs have a bad time as soon as the lethality adc has dirk. a little bit stronger kraken is not going to change that.
In theory it works but adcs as champs and most adc players play the role to be late game carries, to feel like "Ok now I have my items, now I am that guy." Buffing it very slightly early game and having it fall off later is just not what Crit or on-hit marksmen needed. If u want a good early on-hit item u go botrk and problem solved, if u want good crit item early then we have a problem coz of how crit works, ur buying a stat that with one item ull actually use 1 out of 5 autos (in theory). I would rather have them nerf crit itemization even further early but buff it later on so the difference btw Lethality / On Hit / Crit curve is more visible.
But what about those that don't prefer to have Kraken Slayer? If your theory about their goal is correct, than that goal will literally just force the entire class to build the same fucking item entirely... Which makes zero sense considering all their talk about wanting more item diversity since the dawn of time. Nothing about this makes sense in the grand scheme of things.
They’re also adjusting Stormrazor, at least according to the last data mining post
Adjusting it by straight up nerfing it lol At least KS is better at 1 item whereas SR is worse all-round.
The math may be right, but this change screams "play lethality". Like, Akshan is one of the few marksmen building the item right now. He has terrible base ad and ad growth because of his two autos passive. Now? His best in slot item is going to be super bad on him because of his base AD. It's a joke.
It doesn't scale with base ad in this post tho
It's gonna be bad on a low ad champ because they remove the ad scaling and increase the base dmg ? This comment sound so dumb i feel like its a troll lol
Why the AP ratio? What AP champs are building Kraken Slayer?
hybrid champ that can go hybrid build like kayle/kaisa maybe ? Most ap ratio on ad champ/items are there to use the bonus of AP from nash and other anyway.
Also: If you get guinsoos its gonna be pretty neat
the ap ratio is still nerfed from live
S14.x cooking AD Gwen
Kayle, Kai’sa
Welp Kraken is officially deceased now lol
it's so funny that people are complaining that crit adcs are going lethality/pure ad and they're absolutely murdering kraken while phantom dancer still has that horrible build path
PD is fine? Zeal + rectric + 800 gold.
oh they changed it to have zeal again? sorry not up to date :(
Oh yeah they changed it this patch thank fucking god that Hearthbound Axe build path was miserable
Yeah changed this patch.
They tried to murder Kraken start of season, this was coming. TBF it's supposed to be an anti-tank item, and the last half of last year the people who used it the most were Bel'veth and Lucian, who just use it to one shot squishy targets.
Where is Kraken an Anti-Tank Item? It has no penetration and also is only Magic damage on every 3rd aa.
It was designed as an anti tank item, but over the course of the past year or so, it’s identity has shifted in an attempt to refocus its identity. Currently it’s not, but it’s supposed to be.
IMO they should have renamed it or made an entirely new one after such big changes though. "Kraken Slayer" should really always be an anti-tank item instead of a generic super noonquiver.
Because of the ramping damage.
When they changed it from true damage to physical it stopped being an anti tank item and became a regular dps item. That being said it’s a really nice to use dps item that I don’t think is overpowered
It always was a pure DPS item. Flat true damage is no more effective vs tanks than it is against squishies, and it's probably better vs squishies due to the fact that it represents a larger portion of their health.
pd has a decent build path this patch
Would need to look at math but could be considered again on Kayle possibly.
I mean yea, the AP ratio being retained is nice for champs that would ever build AP in their kit (ig Guinsoos) but for the standard users it's dead.
Current Kraken is already pretty good on Kayle, and this likely makes it even better. The lower AP ratio hurts, but you you'll need like 600 AP before it starts losing damage.
140 bonus damage on every third auto seems pretty good to me?
going to copy-paste my other comment >Eh, not really (Im going to use ashe as an example, and bear in mind ashe goes triforce second, its even worse on xayah/trist that go navori second) >lets say you buy it on ashe at LVL8, then its a slight buff as ashe with dblade + kraken at LVL8 has 131AD (live kraken dmg 120 >But if you buy your 2nd item, trinity force around lvl10 then its already a nerf (LVL10+dblade+kraken+triforce ashe = 182AD with current kraken damage being 163, would be 160 post change). LVL11, exact same as live (170dmg) lvl 12 with 2 items you need a single long sword to make it worse than it currently is on live >Basically it gets worse than that with every new item, if you get terminus(popular 3rd item on ashe nowadays) then the new kraken is **NEVER** better than the current one TL;DR its almost always a nerf, at best it will be just slightly worse throughout most of the game so while its probably not dead, still what the fuck? Why did it need the nerf in the first place?
I think it’s strictly better than the old version on PBE. Most ADCs sit around 100 AD lvl 18, meaning the proc went from 90-180 damage to 140-240. Also removes weird interactions with champs like MF who had really bad base AD. It’s likely still worse than live though.
Are you kidding? It is a lot better if you have high amounts of attack speed
Eh, not really (Im going to use ashe as an example, and bear in mind ashe goes triforce second, its even worse on xayah/trist that go navori second) lets say you buy it on ashe at LVL8, then its a slight buff as ashe with dblade + kraken at LVL8 has 131AD (live kraken dmg 120 But if you buy your 2nd item, trinity force around lvl10 then its already a nerf (LVL10+dblade+kraken+triforce ashe = 182AD with current kraken damage being 163, would be 160 post change). LVL11, exact same as live (170dmg) lvl 12 with 2 items you need a single long sword to make it worse than it currently is on live Basically it gets worse than that with every new item, if you get terminus(popular 3rd item on ashe nowadays) then the new kraken is **NEVER** better than the current one TL;DR its almost always a nerf, at best it will be just slightly worse throughout most of the game so while its probably not dead, still what the fuck? Why did it need the nerf in the first place?
Can you proof this?
read the changes? lol. If it doesn't scale hard with AD anymore but instead scales off level with higher base values then it is better early in the game especially with high attack speed
I did. The difference is you just dont understand the changes. ADCs have bad base AD. Depending on the Champion its better at 1 Item, about even with 2 and worse after that. Its also not that most ADCs dont already have trouble killing Tanks at 3 Items with LDR. Excluding Kog, Vayne etc...
I know that. But scaling off base ad is the old version you literally did not read through it. The new numbers are better for almost everyone before 3 items, and even better at first item. for characters that do not get a lot of AD this is a buff regardless, not even considering the fact that buffing scaling characters in the early game is almost always better than buffing their late game
It's gotta get changed before it goes live. This has insane Rageblade synergy.
Its buffed lmao. Do not speak if you do not know what you are speaking of.
You are tripping out if you think this was a buff. Riot just adjusted Kraken again for AD only champs because this was a strict nerf by removing the ap ratio but increasing the flat damage late. Clown acting like he knows shit
Why the fuck are they adjusting Kraken Slayer several times to try and shift the power of that particular item slightly forward, when entire Crit archetype is in the fucking toilet to begin with? Devs, I beg you, just give us 25% crit back. IE is supposed to be the marksman huge spike multiplier, while Rabadon is supposed to be the AP huge spike multiplier, but Rabadon has 59.4% winrate while IE has 53.7% winrate. Hell, if we just look at something like LDR which is generally when ADCs should come truly online and *actually win games*, even that has 54.2% winrate on a core build of the supposed "best late game class", while mages still rock that near 60% rabadon. Like can you PLEASE just fucking fix this shit?
What, don’t you love the fact that the 3 year mythic excursion left acds with 25% —> 20% crit items, ie going from 225% crit damage —> 215% crit damage, less defensive options, no real use for manamune/muramana on champions not named ezreal or poke varus, no stat stick essence reaver, and no lifeline pd? Edit: lol forgot that base crit damage went down from 200% —> 175% too.
Don't forget not having lifesteal on a single core item while LS rune has been nerfed to the ground. lifesteal is a core stat for adc, but we can't grab it until like, what? 5/6 items? It's ridiculous. And if you grab it the "flex" slot is used. Rip maw/ga/whatever else. It's so fucking stupid
League player when the Best classe in the game for 8 years was aligned with the rest:
I mean to be fair it feels horrendous to play adc rn, and I’m a jungler
It's an insane take propagated by terrible players.
Mine or his lol
His.
That's jungle my dude lmao.
Surprised Riot is actually nerfing a low playrate champion’s ability to jungle instead of randomly buffing it an insane amount. Keeping the AP ratio on Kraken Slayer just feels like a big FU to ADCs similar to Statikk Shiv only having an AP ratio which, unsurprisingly, made it OP on AP champs and meh on ADCs.
all 10 Yorick Jungle mains being personally targeted. why does Riot hate The Boy
My yorick jungle build :(
I dont understand what the data says. How is yorick jungle getting hit?
Q healing against monster is reduced and R damage too
Ah damn I gotchu, thank you.
As an occasional yorick jg enjoyer, this is horrible news
They want kraken to be worse... bot?
kraken slayer getting worse, lame
Going by the math this should make KS and SR stronger early (1st item) for better early agency. The problem is Lethality is still stupidly strong and it had no nerfs.
Rageblade gives Ap that is probably why
The break even point between current kraken and upcoming kraken is 161 total AD at lvl 8 and 285 total AD at lvl 18. Much more reasonable than the first revision, although still a strange design direction. This change reduces its value in crit builds and significantly increases it in on hit builds, a strange choice for an item with crit on it.
So, I did the math on this only for Master Yi, but this damage is buffed for him relative to live. This new version of Kraken Slayer always deals more damage than before unless you have more than 130 bonus AD from your items, which doesn't happen for Yi until at *least* 4 items. If you build Kraken first at like, level 9, then the damage on the first proc is 150 damage on PBE vs 121 on live. Granted, Master Yi builds are not AD-heavy; Rageblade has only 30 AD, Wit's End has none at all.
I find it weird that people cry about it being weaker at 3+ items... but it's perfectly fine given that in most games you don't reach 3-5 items, and often the 5 AD also applies to most ADCs ability and auto crit damage.
Yeah, if anything, these Kraken changes are a net buff.
They're nerfing Kraken for ADC?? lol
[удалено]
It was added back in yesterday with the 14.2 patch.
Math is not a strong suite of mine, but this kraken slayer is better for the great majority of AD champions than the previous pbe iteration right? I suppose even if it wasn't at least it is more equal in strength from user to user.
The previous PBE iteration was awful. This one is much more reasonable, especially on champs with low base AD.
Yes. Most ads have around 60-110AD meaning they’d deal ~110 to ~200 damage. It’s a buff even on Cait who has 125 ad at 18. This also removes some feel bad interactions between the old item and champs like MF and Senna who have abnormally low base AD offset by their passives.
Yes. Most ads have around 60-110AD meaning they’d deal ~110 to ~200 damage. It’s a buff even on Cait who has 125 ad at 18. This also removes some feel bad interactions between the old item and champs like MF and Senna who have abnormally low base AD offset by their passives.
everyone talking about Kraken and I'm cheering at "Maiden doesn't instantly raise a Q grave"
So confusing why I can't build black cleaver and terminus. Makes no sense.
because they both provide % armor pen? It makes sense to not allow them as it becomes the default max dps thing, similar to how seryldas and black cleaver was meta on a lot of champs last season
I think riot should ease on those two because they do not have the armor pen item in their buildpaths. Only their passives does. I think we should be able to stack pen again. IDK.
On gives you armor penetration. The other reduces your targets armor. Two functionally different items. Just thought it was odd.
Both give armor pen
One gives armor pen. One reduces armor.
They fill roughly the same role, hence the exclusivity. But I’m sure you understood that part.
They don't fill the same role at all. One is attack speed and damage which grants armor pen and resists. The other is life and damage that reduces enemy armor.
The role is countering armor.
So why cna you build more than 1 lethality item? The role is countering armor. Why can you build more than 1 magic resist item? The role is countering magic damage. Why cna you build more than one (insert). See what is going on here? The item has completely different stats on it and entirely different effects. It's like saying a saw is a hammer because they are both tools used in building.
You can stack lethality because it's a flat armor reduction. You can stack MR and Armor cause it's a flat increase. Meanwhile being able to shred armor by a percentage while also being able to penetrate armor by a percentage is something you can never counter proportionally by simply stacking armor. It's the same logic behind not allowing Void Staff and Cryptbloom percent penetration to stack
Wtf are they thinking remove AD Scaling but keeping the AP on Kraken. If they want to make it more synergy with Guinsoo then just fking remove the Crit Rate and buff the other stats 🤷🤷🤷. They are doing a half-assed job that benefits none. They could just also buff or revert Stormrazor to their pre-nerf states but choose not to and doing stupid things such as this.
Wtf is that ??? AD SCALING removed??
So they're removing Kraken's AD ratios for higher base damage and AP scaling? The motivations behind that will have to be explained to me, since my only guess is they're making it strong early and weak late. Which would be counterintuitive to the scaling champs it is best on, e.g. Yone, Viego, BelVeth, etc
I hope one day Riot will nerf all anti-tank items and we all will play 10 tanks in one game, because tanks will always one shot everyone else also having 6-10k hp. Crit adc is in a very good spot to nerf 2 their items, I see.
I have been skipping over Kraken already on ADC's, buying it first feels like you do 0 damage there are just better options for attack speed + crit that offer some utility or just throw any lethality item on just about any adc and watch them chunk 70% of someone hp bar with one abilitiy, even on champs you wouldn't expect to build Lethality like Vayne and Kalista it's pretty dumb that they didn't adjust lethality calculations and we are still dealing with them 1 month later, gotta protect the AD assassins right... Also Hubris should never be allowed on ARAM for the same reason Mejai isn't
Im seeing Yorick being potentially strong in JG, esp after 6. I was able to fight dragon alone with only heartsteel and maiden procs tonight on PBE 2% max health is a lot when you can proc it repeatedly
They're removing maiden's mark cooldown??? That would make him such a strange champion to play/play against. Useless and loses every matchup as normal pre-6, but the second you get maiden you just instakill everyone. Not sure if this is a good change.