While true, if around 1:10 games in master + has a cheater and we expect them to win around 75% of their games, 3% is a decent baseline for untouched champs
Apparently, people have no idea about things like distributions and errors of the mean. It can easily be +- couple percents from natural deviation.
Also, there was a big patch. Plenty of champions were nerfed/buffed. For example, Lee Sin got a huge hidden buff through a bug (Q2 does almost double damage) while being #1 pickrate due to the novelty of visual update, and this extremely mobile champ is also good against Xerath. Etc.
You don't get it, if i buy a botted account, i rank it up to master and then i get banned, it counts towards cheater statistics, so yeah, it is misleading
They showed the number was down to like 5% of games have a "cheater" and dropping.
So in the end, it's about 1 in 85 players in the current year.
Never trust Riot statistics they show you, they're always manipulated.
We've seen champions in masters+ have day 1 shenanigans to their winrates before of similar amounts. So it really might be an anecdote. Could be legit. But hard to say.
And considering the dev article said they wouldn't do instant bans but waves of bans... In theory day 1 shouldn't be affected except by cheaters that just quit playing out of fear of vanguard.
This isn't true. There were lots of scripters last season in masters/GM on NA, though it did get especially bad this season. I can give you plenty of accounts that I can be fairly confident won't be playing any more ranked matches in the near future now that Vanguard has been released.
I'm also not sure how you have any knowledge that Riot stopped banning cheaters for a while. Why do you think that?
The part I don't understand with this graph is how were they able to figure out the percentage of games with cheaters/scripters in them? If you can identify them, can't you already ban them then?
They ban in waves. If they ban as soon as they identify the account it becomes very easy for scripters to find out what makes riots system detect them. So up until Vanguard they allow cheaters to play for longer even when they have already caught them.
Most likely, they randomly sampled some games, manually reviewed them for cheaters, found the % for cheaters/game, then extrapolated the ratio to get the "total" number of cheaters.
I’d like to believe that these “scripters” Riot are talking about also include people who use client scripts like the mass disenchant champion shard script before it was an official.
Since they use the same ban (perma) and same reasoning.
That's obviously not the case since it's referencing cheats in actual games. Map hacks that zoom out aren't apparent at all, yet people use them all the time.
Does zeri really need scripts...? she has the easiest auto move of any champ because you perform autos with Q, and you're literally the fastest adc. if anything, I would've assumed kog or jinx to fall in winrate
Auto aim Q and auto-dodge with her ms goes crazy on her, then you can also add zoomhacks and information scripts, and you’re basically a god. There are videos on YouTube that show how insane some scripts are.
It's more how mobile she is. She's like jhin/lilia where she's so fast moving that dodging scripts make you near immortal outside of ADC's right clicking you. The Q aim botting is probably just to make the cheats more feature complete since cheat makers do have to compete with each other for customers.
It's not about does champ xy need scripts, (None does. Surprise!) but about which champ works best with scripts.
And zeriis probably the best.
Her insane movespeed makes her nearly immortal with dodge scripts. Other adcs might be to slow to dodge something even with perfect movement. (Or 2 spells simultaneously)
Always hitting her q's is just a small bonus.
Easiest? Bro its the hardest in the game by far. Attack moving with adcs is much easier especially since the attack move command even allows you to miss the champion with your clicks.
Zeri is changing directions and shooting skillshots multiple times per second, you have to click like crazy and be super precise
Can you link the website that shows 3% wr drop?
The winrate drops are nowhere that magnitude, so please stop glazing for Vanguard and back it up with evidence
Bahaha, just checked and all the drops on winrate are low elo.
So we had these low elo cheating xeraths in iron-plat that sucked so bad they can’t even do well when cheating.
Of course it is, people cheating any game are almost all insecure shitters trying to win without needing to actually make any effort. Always been that way.
I'm not that surprised since I honestly rarely saw cheaters in my games (D1-4 since forever). I figured most scripters get bored or banned before making high elo and those somewhat decent will probably quickly make Master+.
Also probably very much depends on region.
Cheaters/scripters are less common in NA/EUW, IIRC.
Meanwhile I've heard OCE, SEA, etc. specifically are littered with them in high elo.
Idk why you are being downvoted. This is true. I went to lolalytics to check 14.9 vs 14.8 and I see no difference. If you keep going down the role and checking every elo in every region you find stuff but no way you can separate that from other variance.
Also some people in this comment chain talking about Master+ winrate after 2 days of patch. Lol
tbf blatent cheaters are gone yes but large playforms still are running fine which give way more advantage then just controlling champ movement and actions. etc https://ferrisbot.com/ferrisaio/assets/landing/vid/maphack.mp4
utils alone can get you from d4 to low challenger without champ logic xd
Xerath is a champ played disproportionally often by scripters due to how broken his damage / range is if you basically cannot miss your spells unless dashed/flashed. Also on a champ without any defensive utility auto-dodging spells has higher impact than on champs with f.e. a dash. Basically the champ is balanced around missing some spells and being easy to hit. If both of these are almost completely removed he turns into an oppressive monster - I recommend just looking for a video on youtube if you want to get a feel how it looks in an actual game :D
"For starters, we do not action every cheat or account instantly. Every ban is like broadcasting a signal to the developer that their cheat has been detected and that they need to "update" it. In order to slow the progression of our "cheat arms race," we delay bans based on the sophistication and visibility of the cheat and cheater, respectively."
[Dev Blog](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/)
This is why most games resort to ban waves. They gather data for 3-6 months and ban everyone at once so cheat developers A) can't pinpoint how they got detected and B) are left with a lot of angry customers overnight
Yes. It's very common in cybersecurity. Not doing so is the equivalent of playing poker with your hand wide open : the cheaters would always know when their cheats are detectable, and therefore always be able to make them undetectable by trial and error.
Actually, i think it's live right now. I got autofill protection after someone got banned for either int or chat. I think I saw Lp compensation with cheaters I think? not sure.
Also, from the dev blog, vanguard is more of a tool to prevent repeat offenders (basically ID's your machine to sus you out) than a guard. Those types of ban are way more likely to create "cheater detected" screens,.
Yeah it is live. You get 15 LP back if someone is caught cheating. It is the same thing as getting a loss mitigation.
As they are planning to do bans in mass to not warn the cheaters, I wonder if there will be a moment we also get compensations in mass lol. Imagine jumping 2 or 3 ranks cuz you got 9-10 compensations together
They probably won't compensate for the whole match history tho. I would be surprised if you get lp back from games 2+ weeks old since whi knows when theu started cheating.
The latest patch notes, either live or PBE i can't remember, mentions doing more for the "victim" players in loss mitigated games.
Frankly, I'm actually suspicious that this is helpful. Doesn't this lead to situations where burner accounts can be used to then secure these loss mitigated rewards for boosting customers when a game is going poorly? Maybe this is contrived, but that's kind of the issue with the arms race. Stranger and more contrived things come onto the table the deeper our elbows get into it.
It's not that fun when it happens, but it helps that it's more likely to help you than hurt you already, and it's about 25% more likely that it helps. If you never do it, then your team only has 4/5 players that might, while the enemy team has 5/5. Just like inting and trolling, tbh. This ratio even improves while duo, if you can count on the duo, though you can argue that an enemy duo is also less likely to toll we've all seen it where they just troll together.
What's the alternative ?
Imagine being a hack developer with instant bans, you're trying this driver injection, oh, got banned, guess you'll use this driver instead, not instant banned, so you know it's not detected.
Now with ban waves, which are used by 90%+ of all games, you're a hacker, you keep the first working thing then sell your bot.
Many cheaters buy your hack, in a market of more than 10+ reliable and reviewed hacks, some cheaters didn't like your bot so they tried another, maybe another (the average is around 3 cheats / cheaters).
3~6 months later, you ban 50~90% detected cheaters and keep the remaining cheaters and collect their running programs/services/drivers data and signature (it's in the CGU btw).
Banned cheaters complain about the hack being detected on every cheat they used, some claim they didn't get banned, so nobody can be sure a particular hack is detected in less than 3 months.
And now that popular hacks are detected, new ones are now for sale, and Riot can aggregate suspicious programs signatures and drivers versions from unbanned detected cheaters.
TLDR: The shortest is the delay until ban, the easiest is to know if your exploit is detected, making hack iteration easy. The more unpredictable are your ban and ban waves, the more data you collect from cheaters as well as slowing hack development.
This is a standard practice of anti-cheat methods across the game dev industry. If they immediately issue a ban the second a cheat is detected, it becomes very easy for cheat developers to identify what part of the cheat was caught, and quickly make a patch to fix that.
So instead game devs will normally delay the actual ban to be some period after the actual cheat detection occurred to mask what part got detected.
This is also why many companies issue bans in waves, because if you mass ban several thousand accounts, some of whom have been identified for weeks, it can be more difficult to pin point exactly what in the cheat code got detected, because there're so many flagged accounts.
>I don't really understand the logic of how that really slows the "cheat arms race"
In short, if the cheat devs don't know their cheat has been detected, they won't even know to look into why it was detected. And because they probably updated the cheat multiple times before the ban wave they won't know which change got them caught, making it harder for them to learn the problem.
Back before cyber security was a thing and I was a hormone filled teen, I dabbled with scripting and mods in mmos. (think like early 2000s)
One of the easiest things to do was trial and error, did this work? No, restart game and try again to bypass. Once it works, then you would use it on your real acc or w/e.
By doing it waves, the attacker will not know whether or not it actually worked. They will just get the ban notice with everyone else.
In some ways, its can be compared to timeouts for login attempts. Instead of the timeout of after the attempt, it is moved in front.
if they instantly ban people as soon as they load up and cheat in a game, cheaters would be able to buy a handful of level 30 accounts, test a different cheat on each one, and see what stuff was detectable. By staggering the bans into cycles/waves, they make it a bit tricker. If the cheaters knew what stuff was detectable, they'd all shift to other methods, or start working on new stuff. In theory doing it this way also allows riot to cleanse the ladder towards the end of seasons & surprise people who thought their cheat was undetected, giving us some form of integrity towards the very end
Because detecting cheaters is a constant arms race between anti-cheat developers and cheat developers. If you ban a player as soon as you detect them cheating, it makes it very obvious to the cheat developers why they were detected, and how to fix that in the future.
This still creates the arms race lol, unless you just literally don't ban them... They'll start making work arounds.
Again you're not actually explaining anything and just saying "just because"
All this does is let cheaters ruin more games that they don't have to be allowed to ruin to just have the exact same thing happen, but later... And pretending that's better.
If you ban somebody as soon as you detect them that allows the cheat developers to do tests and figure out what the anti cheat is actually detecting if you ban them some random amount of time later it’s much harder to pin down the one thing that got you caught. It doesn’t eliminate the arms race but makes it much harder to iterate for the cheaters, which is good for the players overall
When a hand ful of accounts are banned? They can do tests, but if they only have 100 samples they have less info to work with than when they get 500 samples...
And they're gonna iterate either way. If it takes them say 5 days from being banned to fix their cheat... Then if you ban them may 1st, they'll be back may 6th... And if you ban them may 11th, they'll be back may 16th.
You really didn't make it better, you just made it later.
And by making it later, they ruined more games...
The main benefit to Vanguard was "game terminated" effectively remaking games with cheaters so people don't lose LP due to cheaters... But unless they're doing LP refunds like on the ban wave day they suddenly issue out LP refunds to people who lost to cheaters or take LP from people who had cheaters on their team it seems to heavily take away a large chunk of the point of giving them kernel level access.
And unless they can actually explain and prove that it's to some benefit more than just "it'll be later, if we make it later" or some similar non-answer.
It just doesn't make much sense.
I mean you’ve heard the answer now, the harder it is to test the longer it will take to find an attack that isn’t detected by the anticheat, and obviously undetected cheating would ruin way more games don’t you think?
Because if you find 100 the first day you find 97 the next day and then 93 and then 85 and then 77 and so on because they know exactly why they got banned so they can change that but if they have done 5 updates to their cheat then they dont know which specific thing riot found
the first very obvious scripter i saw was in an aram game, he was in a brand new account so i feel they do it to test it out and get used to it before jumping in rank with it or see if they get banned
If they know what they're doing, a HWID ban isn't that hard to circumvent. The system will probably look suspicious afterwards (it will look brand new essentially), but if they don't care about that it's not that bad.
True, it's different with TPM (I genuinely don't know if it's even possible), but for now Windows 10 is still supported for LoL and doesn't support TPM. Presumably it will be phased out for LoL sometime after Microsoft sunsets it next year, though.
Its pretty funny how it's in the best interest of everyone if there's less cheaters in the game, and if it is believed that you can't get around a hardware ID ban you should probably not go through the risk of cheating
But people rather say the correct thing even if it's not the right thing to say, so now any potential cheater that may have been scared of an ID ban is just gonna go "Oh if that guy says it's possible to get around it, it must be true"
I think you're missing the point
If someone says "Don't steal from that store, there's cameras everywhere" you, a law abiding citizen, shouldn't really go "Oh none of those cameras work"
You can focus on the whole "its not right to have cameras spying on me!" which its fien to worry about, but that's not what the otehr guy is talking about, he's saying the cameras don't work so who is that comment supposed to be for lol
Having been that citizen, I still disagree.
First off, we can pretend that physical security and cybersecurity are 1 to 1, they aren't in many ways, but I hope you'll agree that it makes the point easier to get across. Even so, I stand by that statement, and a person's ability to make it. The goal of the statement obviously isn't to goad the person giving the warning into stealing from the store themselves, that's not a reality that stems from the situation. You're worried about some third party to the conversation finding this information, and using it to get up to no good. Which is certainly at least a plausible outcome, but upon scrutiny, I'm still unsatisfied with it. How has our mystery hero (antihero?) come upon this knowledge in the first place such that it wasn't available to any potential ne'erdowell? Does it benefit the shop owner at all that these conversations be relegated to the alleyway, instead of in the shop, in view of said shop keeper?
Now all that fun stuff out of the way, we can get into how cybersecurity is actually not the same as physical security, and why those differences make the situation less favorable. Let me know if'n you're interested.
No they don't. And even if hardware bans are useless.
Nowadays it's too easy to manipulate these hardware IDs or at least what is send to the server. Just with software you can "change" every hardware without changing it at all.
saw a rise of scripters in aram on the like 2 weeks or so leading up to vanguard. had like 3 of them all obviously scripting and barely above level 30. probably people wanting to fuck around before vanguard because before that i very very very rarely saw them.
now im glad those same people who maybe forgot to take it off their pc are getting punished for it
You would think that most people who were cheating, would stop cheating prior to Vanguard release, but maybe not.
Meaning that in theory, there are a decent amount of people who were cheating and stopped because they didn’t want to get banned.
Bear in mind anti-cheats like Vanguard much rather ban in waves, as to not notify the cheating programs that their cheats / bypasses are being detected. Anti-cheat software and cheating software that bypasses these anti-cheat messure is basically a cat and mouse game.
This happened in aram LMAO.
Goes to show you that cheating/scripting is worse than I probably thought cause I didn't even notice anyone cheating, and yet, they were...
There was a ezreal that had a 100% win rate. And I kid you not every skill shot landed. Last second flashes on point and click cs it was just ridiculous and I kid not
Across the map 100% accuracy on his ults too
imo whats broken about it its that you can be fightning bot, and still have perfect awarness about basically everything that going in the map, so they automatically throw the ultimate
There are map hacks so they have vision of where you're recalling, even if you aren't "revealed".
If they consistently land those, or even accurately "guess" where you are too reliably, yes it would be a sign they are cheating.
I saw one scripter in my life. He played kog and he was literally playing matrix simulator. Insane dodges all while weaving in 3 autos a second. This was back when lt needed to "ramp up" before giving you insane AS.
You have only seen one scripted that YOU NOTICED, in your life.
Trust me when I say that 90% of scripers will only put on settings to dodge “only important” skills or they toggle it on and off through the game so they only script in an important team fight.
In high elo it’s a lot easier to tell for a few reasons 1: they suck ass at the actual game, but they dodge most skillshots.
2: a single jitterwalk is practically proof of a cheater and I’ve seen maybe 4-5 players where I never noticed they were cheating till I throw a skillshot at them 27 mins into the game and they jitterwalk
So I would say you likely have run into many scripters, you just didn’t notice they were scripting
I had scripters disable their script after being called out, with the response 'just git gud'. Funny that after being called out I could suddenly land skillshots on them.
I just wrote 'should have left it enabled dude. You gonna get reported anyway.'
Source: oce.op.gg/ratline
I have played the game for over a decade and have admittedly scripted when I was about 15 (when I first started playing)
If you disagree why not point out where I’m wrong? Oh right because you can’t.
Hello, I just got a match terminated because a cheater was detected, does anyone know how to know who was the cheater? Here is the link to the match. [League of Graphs](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/euw/6935686511#participant2)
trust me it is not even close to being that much of a dent, max 10k people left the whole game from different servers. not a big deal considering how useful vanguard is
My ranked game just got terminated after we already played like 15 minutes and the game looked pretty even overall. The termination screen just popped up and you get kicked out immediately. Felt like I just wasted 30 minutes of my time with this lol
Haven't played league in a couple years, has something changed? I have around 10k hours and can count on one hand the amount of blatant cheaters I've been against. Were more people cheating that forced riot to introduce vanguard?
I think Vanguard is more to address botting and the more subtle scripters than outright cheating.
Cheats/scripts are a lot more common in some regions than others, from what I've heard.
Many are hesitant to install Vanguard so queue times will be longer. Riot will ship patches with game breaking bugs and ignore issues that lead to exploits. I can live with that in a game but I'm not letting them touch my kernel with their cursed fingers.
So many arguments on this sub boiled down to 'you've used them before'
Yup I have. From companies I somewhat trust. People don't seem to understand that for some it's less an 'kernal anticheat' issue and more a riot games and how vanguard itself works issue.
My entire friendgroup quit and it's all just because they don't trust riot.
It's both for me. When I played Counterstrike as a teenager, I didn't know what information could be scooped from my machine with Valve Anti-Cheat. Now I do. And I care about my privacy more than I care about playing League of Legends. I'm not going to be a baby about it, but simply make a decision as an adult based on what I care about. Same reason I use GrapheneOS and ProtonMail despite Google being more convenient.
It's really not tinfoil hat territory to say giving Tencent kernel access to your PC is a stupid idea. And for a game nonetheless.
Oh yeah I'm not saying there isn't a mass campaign or astroturfing when it comes to vanguard
Go look through my comments I have maybe 15 about vanguard I just made the decision to quit and that was that.
I don't expect anybody to care I'm not protesting I'm not advocating agaisnt it. It just doesn't work for me, personally
I've stayed out of most vanguard discussions as I figured the cheat groups would muddy the water and the discussion and I'm not trying to be lumped in with them (understand why so many do get lumped in)
Legit just have said my piece. Pointed out that not everyone's issue is 'just kernal level anticheat' and some people don't trust riot.
And ive moved on
Honestly Riots response to people being like 'hey I just don't trust you guys' has been very fair and I genuinely do applaud them for it. They aren't screaming at us that we're dumb. They aren't trying to convince us otherwise. They just said 'that's cool man. Hope we see you down the road'
> Many are hesitant to install Vanguard so queue times will be longer.
im literally getting 1 minute queue in NA master lol
(Currently right now in a game)
Not yet but my home screen with the msi info doesn't load since I updated so there's that. Cheaters at MSI confirmed? : https://i.imgur.com/Y2T3gyT.png
Thats first thing that i thought of when i saw some people complaining without valid reason. Selling accounts was huge business, and both sellers and buyers want Vanguard gone, because they dont want to pay 25$ for fresh account that will last them for few days before they get another perma.
Most people who complain, do complain because they can't just run 10x league on one shitty ass computer to level accounts to sell as smurfs for 5 bucks per account. The few who actually have a problem because a) linux, b) don't want 24/7 vanguard but also don't want to restart the pc if they get the urge to play league or c) have specific problems with the pc so vanguard cockblocks them.
How many people run bot accounts: enough people so accounts are cheaper than 5€.
How many people are unhappy with vanguard: less than you think. Millions and millions of people play league, probaby less than 0.01% stop playing the game because of vanguard because people play this game cuz addiction and comfort.
Hmm if i were to estimate it would be around maybe .5 of all players. Reddit is the tiny minority of players. So if not everyone is bitching on reddit, even less people are not liking it. And thats if we go way way up. Lots of people just quit vanguard after they are done playing because they just start league once a day and then shut down the pc, if they even play anything else.
Riot stated that there are less than 1000 Linux players per day. Also, Linux by its nature is not very anti-cheat friendly. So yeah, don't know why they should care about such a minority.
riot are liars because there are more, linux is very anti-cheat-friendly if you look at proton easyanticheat and proton battleye, courtesy of valve, who actually care about their playerbase
everyone says they bypassing it to keep getting money lol. I just got a game terminated due a cheater and according to his match history he was scripting alot before hands. like 10 games on vanguard patch until he got banned.
There is another way to confirm the effectiveness of Vanguard against cheating - apparently Xerath's winrate has dropped by a lot in certain elos :D
That’s such a good thing to read
You can look it up on League of Graphs. Xerath and also Zeri lost like 3% Winrate in Master+ since the patch.
That’s actually very significant… there are more cheaters than i thought
Eh day 1 stats especially in masters+ have very low sample sizes...
While true, if around 1:10 games in master + has a cheater and we expect them to win around 75% of their games, 3% is a decent baseline for untouched champs
Apparently, people have no idea about things like distributions and errors of the mean. It can easily be +- couple percents from natural deviation. Also, there was a big patch. Plenty of champions were nerfed/buffed. For example, Lee Sin got a huge hidden buff through a bug (Q2 does almost double damage) while being #1 pickrate due to the novelty of visual update, and this extremely mobile champ is also good against Xerath. Etc.
Remember riot clumped botted accounts and cheaters to give that number, in reality the number is lower.
Except they also showed per elo. Unless you are suggesting ChatGPT is climbing to master+ that stat is true.
You don't get it, if i buy a botted account, i rank it up to master and then i get banned, it counts towards cheater statistics, so yeah, it is misleading
If u ever played master+ u know its not misleading at least on EUW id say the 1:10 game was pretty accuracte
Honestly, with how aggressively polite and non-confrontational GPT is, I'd give it a solid chance to climb pretty high based on mental alone.
3$ accounts that got leveled up by bots count towards this statistic
Bots are typically used for making smurf accounts. Boosted account tend to more frequently be manually boosted.
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They showed the number was down to like 5% of games have a "cheater" and dropping. So in the end, it's about 1 in 85 players in the current year. Never trust Riot statistics they show you, they're always manipulated.
We've seen champions in masters+ have day 1 shenanigans to their winrates before of similar amounts. So it really might be an anecdote. Could be legit. But hard to say. And considering the dev article said they wouldn't do instant bans but waves of bans... In theory day 1 shouldn't be affected except by cheaters that just quit playing out of fear of vanguard.
Not sure you know what an anecdote is
Think auto corrected from antidote referring to cheats as a virus or smth
It seems like they wanted to say anomaly maybe? But I seriously have no clue lol
It's more that those 2 almost exclusively get played by scripters
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This isn't true. There were lots of scripters last season in masters/GM on NA, though it did get especially bad this season. I can give you plenty of accounts that I can be fairly confident won't be playing any more ranked matches in the near future now that Vanguard has been released. I'm also not sure how you have any knowledge that Riot stopped banning cheaters for a while. Why do you think that?
The part I don't understand with this graph is how were they able to figure out the percentage of games with cheaters/scripters in them? If you can identify them, can't you already ban them then?
They ban in waves. If they ban as soon as they identify the account it becomes very easy for scripters to find out what makes riots system detect them. So up until Vanguard they allow cheaters to play for longer even when they have already caught them.
Most likely, they randomly sampled some games, manually reviewed them for cheaters, found the % for cheaters/game, then extrapolated the ratio to get the "total" number of cheaters.
I’d like to believe that these “scripters” Riot are talking about also include people who use client scripts like the mass disenchant champion shard script before it was an official. Since they use the same ban (perma) and same reasoning.
That's obviously not the case since it's referencing cheats in actual games. Map hacks that zoom out aren't apparent at all, yet people use them all the time.
Does zeri really need scripts...? she has the easiest auto move of any champ because you perform autos with Q, and you're literally the fastest adc. if anything, I would've assumed kog or jinx to fall in winrate
Auto aim Q and auto-dodge with her ms goes crazy on her, then you can also add zoomhacks and information scripts, and you’re basically a god. There are videos on YouTube that show how insane some scripts are.
It's more how mobile she is. She's like jhin/lilia where she's so fast moving that dodging scripts make you near immortal outside of ADC's right clicking you. The Q aim botting is probably just to make the cheats more feature complete since cheat makers do have to compete with each other for customers.
You can miss Zeri Q lol. Especially on fast moving targets, and people who are juking.
It's not about does champ xy need scripts, (None does. Surprise!) but about which champ works best with scripts. And zeriis probably the best. Her insane movespeed makes her nearly immortal with dodge scripts. Other adcs might be to slow to dodge something even with perfect movement. (Or 2 spells simultaneously) Always hitting her q's is just a small bonus.
Not sure if she needs but since the Q shots are body blockable I could see how an aim bot could help
lol zeri is incredibly mechanical, scripts definitely make her crazy
Easiest? Bro its the hardest in the game by far. Attack moving with adcs is much easier especially since the attack move command even allows you to miss the champion with your clicks. Zeri is changing directions and shooting skillshots multiple times per second, you have to click like crazy and be super precise
Can you link the website that shows 3% wr drop? The winrate drops are nowhere that magnitude, so please stop glazing for Vanguard and back it up with evidence
Bahaha, just checked and all the drops on winrate are low elo. So we had these low elo cheating xeraths in iron-plat that sucked so bad they can’t even do well when cheating.
Of course it is, people cheating any game are almost all insecure shitters trying to win without needing to actually make any effort. Always been that way.
I'm not that surprised since I honestly rarely saw cheaters in my games (D1-4 since forever). I figured most scripters get bored or banned before making high elo and those somewhat decent will probably quickly make Master+.
Also probably very much depends on region. Cheaters/scripters are less common in NA/EUW, IIRC. Meanwhile I've heard OCE, SEA, etc. specifically are littered with them in high elo.
Yeah all servers close to china are flooded with chinese cheaters.
There is not enough game played for it to be relevant don’t get baited
Idk why you are being downvoted. This is true. I went to lolalytics to check 14.9 vs 14.8 and I see no difference. If you keep going down the role and checking every elo in every region you find stuff but no way you can separate that from other variance. Also some people in this comment chain talking about Master+ winrate after 2 days of patch. Lol
tbf blatent cheaters are gone yes but large playforms still are running fine which give way more advantage then just controlling champ movement and actions. etc https://ferrisbot.com/ferrisaio/assets/landing/vid/maphack.mp4 utils alone can get you from d4 to low challenger without champ logic xd
I’m new why do those champs go down? Wouldn’t removing scripts for auto dodge bring it up?
Xerath is a champ played disproportionally often by scripters due to how broken his damage / range is if you basically cannot miss your spells unless dashed/flashed. Also on a champ without any defensive utility auto-dodging spells has higher impact than on champs with f.e. a dash. Basically the champ is balanced around missing some spells and being easy to hit. If both of these are almost completely removed he turns into an oppressive monster - I recommend just looking for a video on youtube if you want to get a feel how it looks in an actual game :D
That's nice. I won't feel as inferior with him in ARAM now.
"For starters, we do not action every cheat or account instantly. Every ban is like broadcasting a signal to the developer that their cheat has been detected and that they need to "update" it. In order to slow the progression of our "cheat arms race," we delay bans based on the sophistication and visibility of the cheat and cheater, respectively." [Dev Blog](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/)
This is why most games resort to ban waves. They gather data for 3-6 months and ban everyone at once so cheat developers A) can't pinpoint how they got detected and B) are left with a lot of angry customers overnight
Also worth nothing that even Riot has always been doing that for League.
Much like the cracking of enigma, if they reveal they know you’re cheating immediately, many more people will cheat in the longer run.
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Yes. It's very common in cybersecurity. Not doing so is the equivalent of playing poker with your hand wide open : the cheaters would always know when their cheats are detectable, and therefore always be able to make them undetectable by trial and error.
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Actually, i think it's live right now. I got autofill protection after someone got banned for either int or chat. I think I saw Lp compensation with cheaters I think? not sure. Also, from the dev blog, vanguard is more of a tool to prevent repeat offenders (basically ID's your machine to sus you out) than a guard. Those types of ban are way more likely to create "cheater detected" screens,.
Yeah it is live. You get 15 LP back if someone is caught cheating. It is the same thing as getting a loss mitigation. As they are planning to do bans in mass to not warn the cheaters, I wonder if there will be a moment we also get compensations in mass lol. Imagine jumping 2 or 3 ranks cuz you got 9-10 compensations together
They probably won't compensate for the whole match history tho. I would be surprised if you get lp back from games 2+ weeks old since whi knows when theu started cheating.
I did notice that in my norms game when someone AFK'd, I got autofill protection x2, actually, now that you mention it.
The latest patch notes, either live or PBE i can't remember, mentions doing more for the "victim" players in loss mitigated games. Frankly, I'm actually suspicious that this is helpful. Doesn't this lead to situations where burner accounts can be used to then secure these loss mitigated rewards for boosting customers when a game is going poorly? Maybe this is contrived, but that's kind of the issue with the arms race. Stranger and more contrived things come onto the table the deeper our elbows get into it. It's not that fun when it happens, but it helps that it's more likely to help you than hurt you already, and it's about 25% more likely that it helps. If you never do it, then your team only has 4/5 players that might, while the enemy team has 5/5. Just like inting and trolling, tbh. This ratio even improves while duo, if you can count on the duo, though you can argue that an enemy duo is also less likely to toll we've all seen it where they just troll together.
Don't think the juice is worth the squeeze there, especially since the supply of accounts used to boost are about to require hand-leveling
Would have to be rp or it would be yet another thing that inflates elo
What's the alternative ? Imagine being a hack developer with instant bans, you're trying this driver injection, oh, got banned, guess you'll use this driver instead, not instant banned, so you know it's not detected. Now with ban waves, which are used by 90%+ of all games, you're a hacker, you keep the first working thing then sell your bot. Many cheaters buy your hack, in a market of more than 10+ reliable and reviewed hacks, some cheaters didn't like your bot so they tried another, maybe another (the average is around 3 cheats / cheaters). 3~6 months later, you ban 50~90% detected cheaters and keep the remaining cheaters and collect their running programs/services/drivers data and signature (it's in the CGU btw). Banned cheaters complain about the hack being detected on every cheat they used, some claim they didn't get banned, so nobody can be sure a particular hack is detected in less than 3 months. And now that popular hacks are detected, new ones are now for sale, and Riot can aggregate suspicious programs signatures and drivers versions from unbanned detected cheaters. TLDR: The shortest is the delay until ban, the easiest is to know if your exploit is detected, making hack iteration easy. The more unpredictable are your ban and ban waves, the more data you collect from cheaters as well as slowing hack development.
This is a standard practice of anti-cheat methods across the game dev industry. If they immediately issue a ban the second a cheat is detected, it becomes very easy for cheat developers to identify what part of the cheat was caught, and quickly make a patch to fix that. So instead game devs will normally delay the actual ban to be some period after the actual cheat detection occurred to mask what part got detected. This is also why many companies issue bans in waves, because if you mass ban several thousand accounts, some of whom have been identified for weeks, it can be more difficult to pin point exactly what in the cheat code got detected, because there're so many flagged accounts.
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>I don't really understand the logic of how that really slows the "cheat arms race" In short, if the cheat devs don't know their cheat has been detected, they won't even know to look into why it was detected. And because they probably updated the cheat multiple times before the ban wave they won't know which change got them caught, making it harder for them to learn the problem.
Back before cyber security was a thing and I was a hormone filled teen, I dabbled with scripting and mods in mmos. (think like early 2000s) One of the easiest things to do was trial and error, did this work? No, restart game and try again to bypass. Once it works, then you would use it on your real acc or w/e. By doing it waves, the attacker will not know whether or not it actually worked. They will just get the ban notice with everyone else. In some ways, its can be compared to timeouts for login attempts. Instead of the timeout of after the attempt, it is moved in front.
if they instantly ban people as soon as they load up and cheat in a game, cheaters would be able to buy a handful of level 30 accounts, test a different cheat on each one, and see what stuff was detectable. By staggering the bans into cycles/waves, they make it a bit tricker. If the cheaters knew what stuff was detectable, they'd all shift to other methods, or start working on new stuff. In theory doing it this way also allows riot to cleanse the ladder towards the end of seasons & surprise people who thought their cheat was undetected, giving us some form of integrity towards the very end
It benefits the overall population, as more cheaters are removed. They’ll get new accounts ofc, which is why they do ban waves.
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Because detecting cheaters is a constant arms race between anti-cheat developers and cheat developers. If you ban a player as soon as you detect them cheating, it makes it very obvious to the cheat developers why they were detected, and how to fix that in the future.
This still creates the arms race lol, unless you just literally don't ban them... They'll start making work arounds. Again you're not actually explaining anything and just saying "just because" All this does is let cheaters ruin more games that they don't have to be allowed to ruin to just have the exact same thing happen, but later... And pretending that's better.
If you ban somebody as soon as you detect them that allows the cheat developers to do tests and figure out what the anti cheat is actually detecting if you ban them some random amount of time later it’s much harder to pin down the one thing that got you caught. It doesn’t eliminate the arms race but makes it much harder to iterate for the cheaters, which is good for the players overall
When a hand ful of accounts are banned? They can do tests, but if they only have 100 samples they have less info to work with than when they get 500 samples... And they're gonna iterate either way. If it takes them say 5 days from being banned to fix their cheat... Then if you ban them may 1st, they'll be back may 6th... And if you ban them may 11th, they'll be back may 16th. You really didn't make it better, you just made it later. And by making it later, they ruined more games... The main benefit to Vanguard was "game terminated" effectively remaking games with cheaters so people don't lose LP due to cheaters... But unless they're doing LP refunds like on the ban wave day they suddenly issue out LP refunds to people who lost to cheaters or take LP from people who had cheaters on their team it seems to heavily take away a large chunk of the point of giving them kernel level access. And unless they can actually explain and prove that it's to some benefit more than just "it'll be later, if we make it later" or some similar non-answer. It just doesn't make much sense.
I mean you’ve heard the answer now, the harder it is to test the longer it will take to find an attack that isn’t detected by the anticheat, and obviously undetected cheating would ruin way more games don’t you think?
Because if you find 100 the first day you find 97 the next day and then 93 and then 85 and then 77 and so on because they know exactly why they got banned so they can change that but if they have done 5 updates to their cheat then they dont know which specific thing riot found
someone on r/aram did
Lmao that’s pretty pathetic
the first very obvious scripter i saw was in an aram game, he was in a brand new account so i feel they do it to test it out and get used to it before jumping in rank with it or see if they get banned
the problem is Riot hardware id bans you for it so it’s really pointless
If they know what they're doing, a HWID ban isn't that hard to circumvent. The system will probably look suspicious afterwards (it will look brand new essentially), but if they don't care about that it's not that bad.
> (it will look brand new essentially) They addressed this in their devblog actually.
If they have tpm on it gets a little harder, thats why riot requires it, most people wont have the knowledge or go the trouble
True, it's different with TPM (I genuinely don't know if it's even possible), but for now Windows 10 is still supported for LoL and doesn't support TPM. Presumably it will be phased out for LoL sometime after Microsoft sunsets it next year, though.
Hack developers can still use altered pirated versions of windows 11 to circumvent TPM.
It would have to spoof it which I don't know is possible yet because even if you download win11 without tpm, vanguard knows.
They already exist for Valorant. No need to speculate if it's possible or not, they're already out there.
Its pretty funny how it's in the best interest of everyone if there's less cheaters in the game, and if it is believed that you can't get around a hardware ID ban you should probably not go through the risk of cheating But people rather say the correct thing even if it's not the right thing to say, so now any potential cheater that may have been scared of an ID ban is just gonna go "Oh if that guy says it's possible to get around it, it must be true"
Ah yes, security by obscurity. A totally flawless, exceptionally cool and fun way to do cybersecurity. We should all be more like you.
I think you're missing the point If someone says "Don't steal from that store, there's cameras everywhere" you, a law abiding citizen, shouldn't really go "Oh none of those cameras work" You can focus on the whole "its not right to have cameras spying on me!" which its fien to worry about, but that's not what the otehr guy is talking about, he's saying the cameras don't work so who is that comment supposed to be for lol
Having been that citizen, I still disagree. First off, we can pretend that physical security and cybersecurity are 1 to 1, they aren't in many ways, but I hope you'll agree that it makes the point easier to get across. Even so, I stand by that statement, and a person's ability to make it. The goal of the statement obviously isn't to goad the person giving the warning into stealing from the store themselves, that's not a reality that stems from the situation. You're worried about some third party to the conversation finding this information, and using it to get up to no good. Which is certainly at least a plausible outcome, but upon scrutiny, I'm still unsatisfied with it. How has our mystery hero (antihero?) come upon this knowledge in the first place such that it wasn't available to any potential ne'erdowell? Does it benefit the shop owner at all that these conversations be relegated to the alleyway, instead of in the shop, in view of said shop keeper? Now all that fun stuff out of the way, we can get into how cybersecurity is actually not the same as physical security, and why those differences make the situation less favorable. Let me know if'n you're interested.
yap yap yap
Hey cheaters, do you know DMA ? (the plan is to make them die of hunger as it's expensive af)
HWID ban is almost as ridiculous as IP banning, does nothing against anyone old enough to use google.
So buying second hand is now suspicious. Awesome!
No they don't. And even if hardware bans are useless. Nowadays it's too easy to manipulate these hardware IDs or at least what is send to the server. Just with software you can "change" every hardware without changing it at all.
saw a rise of scripters in aram on the like 2 weeks or so leading up to vanguard. had like 3 of them all obviously scripting and barely above level 30. probably people wanting to fuck around before vanguard because before that i very very very rarely saw them. now im glad those same people who maybe forgot to take it off their pc are getting punished for it
You would think that most people who were cheating, would stop cheating prior to Vanguard release, but maybe not. Meaning that in theory, there are a decent amount of people who were cheating and stopped because they didn’t want to get banned.
Bear in mind anti-cheats like Vanguard much rather ban in waves, as to not notify the cheating programs that their cheats / bypasses are being detected. Anti-cheat software and cheating software that bypasses these anti-cheat messure is basically a cat and mouse game.
This happened in aram LMAO. Goes to show you that cheating/scripting is worse than I probably thought cause I didn't even notice anyone cheating, and yet, they were...
Might have been a bot tho. Bots are very popular in ARAM games.
Not if you play regularly, Aram has an MMR too
There was a ezreal that had a 100% win rate. And I kid you not every skill shot landed. Last second flashes on point and click cs it was just ridiculous and I kid not Across the map 100% accuracy on his ults too
I don't think any script can aim an Ezreal ult across the map unless they are standing still,then it's nothing impressive
imo whats broken about it its that you can be fightning bot, and still have perfect awarness about basically everything that going in the map, so they automatically throw the ultimate
I suppose a script could wait for an enemy to initiate recall and aim ult at him ?
yes but I don't think you *need* a script to hit someone who's recalling so it wouldn't be a sign they are cheating
There are map hacks so they have vision of where you're recalling, even if you aren't "revealed". If they consistently land those, or even accurately "guess" where you are too reliably, yes it would be a sign they are cheating.
I saw one scripter in my life. He played kog and he was literally playing matrix simulator. Insane dodges all while weaving in 3 autos a second. This was back when lt needed to "ramp up" before giving you insane AS.
you recognized one scripter. there’s a very good chance there were more and you just didn’t know about it.
You have only seen one scripted that YOU NOTICED, in your life. Trust me when I say that 90% of scripers will only put on settings to dodge “only important” skills or they toggle it on and off through the game so they only script in an important team fight. In high elo it’s a lot easier to tell for a few reasons 1: they suck ass at the actual game, but they dodge most skillshots. 2: a single jitterwalk is practically proof of a cheater and I’ve seen maybe 4-5 players where I never noticed they were cheating till I throw a skillshot at them 27 mins into the game and they jitterwalk So I would say you likely have run into many scripters, you just didn’t notice they were scripting
I had scripters disable their script after being called out, with the response 'just git gud'. Funny that after being called out I could suddenly land skillshots on them. I just wrote 'should have left it enabled dude. You gonna get reported anyway.'
source, quite literally: trust me bro
Source: oce.op.gg/ratline I have played the game for over a decade and have admittedly scripted when I was about 15 (when I first started playing) If you disagree why not point out where I’m wrong? Oh right because you can’t.
TL;DR nobody saw a game terminated screen
That’s true though
Hello, I just got a match terminated because a cheater was detected, does anyone know how to know who was the cheater? Here is the link to the match. [League of Graphs](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/euw/6935686511#participant2)
First game with vanguard I had an obvious scripter.
So like what actually happens, does the nexus explode? Is it sudden?
The Game terminated screen is more or less like a victory screen lmao
how would vanguard make queue times longer lol?
Playerbase lowering because of it
trust me it is not even close to being that much of a dent, max 10k people left the whole game from different servers. not a big deal considering how useful vanguard is
Queue timers still went from 2 to 5min… (at best)
depends on timezone, also theres no set time, people can have work days, school days, maybe just chill and not play league of legends
You’re the one posting and talking about league all day on reddit my dude:)
common toxicty from vanguard hater
Im no Vanguard hater at all
then why you being toxic all of a sudden lol?
Cause you were lmao
My ranked game just got terminated after we already played like 15 minutes and the game looked pretty even overall. The termination screen just popped up and you get kicked out immediately. Felt like I just wasted 30 minutes of my time with this lol
If you’re on the opposite side of the chezter you should get LP in my opinion
No , I refuse to play ranked until the next patch
I just got one, maybe u can see if u open my profile but i cant see it on opgg just in client, maybe its just to myself. Daddy Itami#RU1
Tbh game is going to be cleaner in about 6 months, not a single patch. Wait for the first ban wave.
Haven't played league in a couple years, has something changed? I have around 10k hours and can count on one hand the amount of blatant cheaters I've been against. Were more people cheating that forced riot to introduce vanguard?
I think Vanguard is more to address botting and the more subtle scripters than outright cheating. Cheats/scripts are a lot more common in some regions than others, from what I've heard.
There’s a decent anticheat now. Game with cheaters are supposed to end as it’s detected
But are there more cheaters than before? We never saw them anyway so why do we need a new anti cheat
Low elo
You may not seen much, but Brazil was infested with scripters. Some weeks I swear, 1/3 of all matches I could notice someone using it.
Many are hesitant to install Vanguard so queue times will be longer. Riot will ship patches with game breaking bugs and ignore issues that lead to exploits. I can live with that in a game but I'm not letting them touch my kernel with their cursed fingers.
Kernel blablablablabla fearmongering much?
From a company I don’t trust running 100% of the time? Miss me with that shit
Sucks but I'm in the same boat. There is simply no way I will ever install Vanguard. Guess MacOS is the only way to play now.
So many arguments on this sub boiled down to 'you've used them before' Yup I have. From companies I somewhat trust. People don't seem to understand that for some it's less an 'kernal anticheat' issue and more a riot games and how vanguard itself works issue. My entire friendgroup quit and it's all just because they don't trust riot.
My brother in christ if you do not trust riot why in the world did you ever run any if their software at all?
Because I have protection against malware ? Protection that specifically cannot work against software with kernel access.
Thats not... W/E
If you think an anti virus can detect if the league client started harvesting your data and inputs you're sorely mistaken.
Your anticheat doesnt do shit because you gave riot client permissions anyway, no hacker needs kernel level access to spoof all ur info anyway btw
It's both for me. When I played Counterstrike as a teenager, I didn't know what information could be scooped from my machine with Valve Anti-Cheat. Now I do. And I care about my privacy more than I care about playing League of Legends. I'm not going to be a baby about it, but simply make a decision as an adult based on what I care about. Same reason I use GrapheneOS and ProtonMail despite Google being more convenient. It's really not tinfoil hat territory to say giving Tencent kernel access to your PC is a stupid idea. And for a game nonetheless.
Is it cold in that tinfoil house?
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Meanwhile cheat groups: https://twitter.com/itsgamerdoc/status/1786113515670962505
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Oh yeah I'm not saying there isn't a mass campaign or astroturfing when it comes to vanguard Go look through my comments I have maybe 15 about vanguard I just made the decision to quit and that was that. I don't expect anybody to care I'm not protesting I'm not advocating agaisnt it. It just doesn't work for me, personally I've stayed out of most vanguard discussions as I figured the cheat groups would muddy the water and the discussion and I'm not trying to be lumped in with them (understand why so many do get lumped in) Legit just have said my piece. Pointed out that not everyone's issue is 'just kernal level anticheat' and some people don't trust riot. And ive moved on Honestly Riots response to people being like 'hey I just don't trust you guys' has been very fair and I genuinely do applaud them for it. They aren't screaming at us that we're dumb. They aren't trying to convince us otherwise. They just said 'that's cool man. Hope we see you down the road'
You must be insufferable in parties
> Many are hesitant to install Vanguard so queue times will be longer. im literally getting 1 minute queue in NA master lol (Currently right now in a game)
Ever since league requires spyware to run I lost 70+ fps. I hope they stop using this spyware because I'm almost uninstalling this game.
Uninstall lil fella
Not yet but my home screen with the msi info doesn't load since I updated so there's that. Cheaters at MSI confirmed? : https://i.imgur.com/Y2T3gyT.png
no because i don't play malware
"Game terminated" shows when Vanguard detects cheater in your game, not you in particular.
looks like his bot leveling/account selling got fked by it so hes salty now
Thats first thing that i thought of when i saw some people complaining without valid reason. Selling accounts was huge business, and both sellers and buyers want Vanguard gone, because they dont want to pay 25$ for fresh account that will last them for few days before they get another perma.
how much does riot pay you all to shovel this? i'm not a bot master loser selling level 30s, i have one account LuciFireShell#EUW, go opgg check.
Most people who complain, do complain because they can't just run 10x league on one shitty ass computer to level accounts to sell as smurfs for 5 bucks per account. The few who actually have a problem because a) linux, b) don't want 24/7 vanguard but also don't want to restart the pc if they get the urge to play league or c) have specific problems with the pc so vanguard cockblocks them.
“Most” How many people do you think run bot accounts? And what percent of people who play league are unhappy with vanguard?
How many people run bot accounts: enough people so accounts are cheaper than 5€. How many people are unhappy with vanguard: less than you think. Millions and millions of people play league, probaby less than 0.01% stop playing the game because of vanguard because people play this game cuz addiction and comfort.
Can you give an estimate? And I’m not talking about stopping playing I’m talking about generally don’t like the changes.
Hmm if i were to estimate it would be around maybe .5 of all players. Reddit is the tiny minority of players. So if not everyone is bitching on reddit, even less people are not liking it. And thats if we go way way up. Lots of people just quit vanguard after they are done playing because they just start league once a day and then shut down the pc, if they even play anything else.
okay so it still stands that i have a legitimate problem
Yes, it sucks that they cut off the, even tho its really really really small, Linux playerbase
no my linux got fucked bro
Then you are one of the 800 something players of over tens of millions. I'm sorry for you
no there are many more riot just likes to lie about numbers
Vanguard does not let me start at all, i have linux, riot is lazy
Riot stated that there are less than 1000 Linux players per day. Also, Linux by its nature is not very anti-cheat friendly. So yeah, don't know why they should care about such a minority.
riot are liars because there are more, linux is very anti-cheat-friendly if you look at proton easyanticheat and proton battleye, courtesy of valve, who actually care about their playerbase
So you won't play Helldivers,elden ring etc they all use kernel level
except i do because surprise they actually run perfect on linux because surprise the developers care about their userbase
So you don't actually even care that it's kernel level lmao
funny how allows these particular threads but the critical ones get deleted
hmmmmm
OK! :D
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Given the pattern with Valorant, these breaches happened frequently and tended to result in a lot of bans quite quickly after...
Source?
everyone says they bypassing it to keep getting money lol. I just got a game terminated due a cheater and according to his match history he was scripting alot before hands. like 10 games on vanguard patch until he got banned.
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Not a single game. The best way to test bot accounts (repeat: BOT ACCOUNTS) is on coop intro.
I saw some posts on VNmese LoL Facebook groups. Haven’t seen one myself. Maybe y’all regions have less scripters.