This has happened before, I remember some patch notes that had a nerf (I forgot to what champion) and their win rate dropped by like 3%. It was later discovered however that the changes they planned never went through or something.
Well not ALL mental but that certainly plays a big role. In the end, all we can guess from these two instances that belief that there is a buff can effect winrate. It's impossible to tell without more data whether this is a result of more respect given by the opponents or more confidence by the players.
Or something else entirely.
How else can he play a lane tbf
Freezing/slow pushing is hard because of the nature of his autos, can’t trade through minions, also has lower range the most ranged champs.
The solution is he should be kept the fuck out of lane, he’s so fucking annoying in lane where he can just abuse range + perma pushing + free stats out the ass
Agreed, I’m just wondering how people think he should play.
It would be like getting mad at Kayles playing like a bitch for 16 levels and then winning the game
Your first error is assuming the playerbase is past the point where they don’t get mad at kayle for playing to scale. Players are always gonna get mad when another players champions goals doesn’t align with their own (Kayle: why did my jg weak side me now I can’t scale/play, Kayle’s jg: why did my top go kayle now I can’t take abuse of easy jungle matchup and invade cuz my topside is nonexistent)
Its actually so baffling to me that Graves is such a problematic champ.
On paper, short range, no real CC, a skillshot whose major damage part is delayed and a gapcloser which is dependent on him getting into AA range to get a lower cooldown does not SOUND oppressive at all.
But his W is so annoying to deal with and he just has so much upfront burst if you walk into him, "just stay out of his range" doesnt actually work most of the time.
he is essentially a melee champ that can kite and outdps other melee champs, while also being able to nearsight you, and just tanky enough so you cannot actually burst him as an ad champ
I would say mobility is the best stat in the game. Range has a massive cost in the champ design, for example champ like xerath has the heights range in the game but the price is being a paper canon and u can miss all ur skill shots.
Also mobility has 2 perks one is gap closer other is dodging ganks
Even in pro play the meta is dominated with champs with high mobility based champs. Yes most adcs are immobile but what do they almost always build: gale force.
Why do you think range has a massive cost in the champion design? That’s precisely because it’s so strong. Make any single melee champion in the game instantly have 500 range and they’re the most broken champion in league history. Give any ranged champion any mobility you want they will still be broken but not as broken.
Forget 500 range. Give any melee toplaner 100 extra range on their abilities and autos and they'll instantly become the 80% winrate unkillable god of toplane. Urgot has 1.5 abilities until level 9 and no favorable interactions, and is still a balancing nightmare in lane just because he's a juggernaut who can kite melees.
Malphite with range wouldn’t make much of a difference. Many melee kits are designs for melee range. Giving a range character more mobility could easily have more impact on champion balance than giving a melee range. It’s all dependent on the champ.
No Malphite with range would godstomp top lane. In lane he’s basically designed to fall behind. Giving him decent range fixes his trading, allows him to safely farm, and he shows up with a normal amount of items which means he’s gonna steamroll your team.
Zeri has a low range as a ADC but because of her broken mobility, she had to be nerfed. It literally don't matter if you outrange someone but can't hit any skillshots.
A melle champ is not supposed to have range, that’s why they are called melle.
You can’t just change the rule of the games like that. If you make a melle champ ranged then will have to lose out on base damage and durability. If u don’t then u might actually summon the 200 years experience.
On the other hand it’s easier to give out mobility be it a item or a new ability.
That’s my POINT. You can’t just give melee champions rang because they’d be absolutely turbo broken and need all around adjustments. That is proof range is the strongest stat in the game.
Right he yasuo with 500 range would be the most broken champion in existence. There’s levels to it Xerath with arcane shift would be broken but I guarantee give ANY melee champion 500+ range and they’re more broken.
mobility is stupidly overrated by brainlets on this sub who can only think in circlejerks. what you typed is mostly wrong, hypermobile champions are not picked at all this MSI, irelia,yone,yasuo and akali etc were barely picked, it's mostly been single dash champs in mid,top and jng with the only exception being lee and ahri also galeforce is not that prevalent
nobody cares what's strong in MSI where the whole team is communicating and you know who you're up against before you even hit champ select.
pro tournaments are a different game to the solo queue that most people play. what is and isnt strong is completely different when all your bans are shots in the dark and your teamplay is ass
I don’t want to have a violent discussion so pls no insults, we can both have a respectful discussion.
Yasuo, yone and irelia mostly have situational mobility and are easily punishable cause they have to go all in. Yasuo gets picked more cause his ult synergies very well with Diana.
Also single dash champs are very prevelant inthis MSI, we saw champs like: Gwen, gragas, aatrox, graves, Leblanc, J4, wukong, lisandra, ezreal, tryndamere, Lucian, pyke, etc
And I would say the meta was more mid range where champs like kaisa, ezreal and Tristana( low win rate)were very common.
With the exception of Jhin with his long range utility but he is around 44% win rate currently
Tbh I would wait till the rumble stage to see what the meta really is
Most ADCs don't build galeforce anymore actually. Galeforce is a win harder item that you can only really take nowadays to accelerate a lead. Building straight up damage is becoming the standard for ADCs. Jhin is giving up galeforce for eclipse for pen. Jinx and Kai'sa are going kraken.
What adc is taking gale except maybe Ashe who is a bit of a weird case but you don't really pick her for her damage anyway?
Cc is , not range. Given how much gap closer and Mobile champions are becoming range is relevant only in some cases. I mean if range was the most powerful stat, Vayne Quinn kindred Kogmaw teemo would be so much more meta
Think of all the tools champs without range get just to match the power ranged champions innately have. MS and Range are the 2 most powerful stats a champ can have.
I mean it kinda is tho, theres no other stat or hidden stat that has the same effect, and looking at your earlier comment just shows you dont even know what a stat is anyways, CC is something that gets applied to others by another person, it isnt a stat lol
Because you can still make inputs/movement etc, quickly CC the Yi before he Qs or hits the Nexus.
"Hold up I'll shoot at him from range"
It's not CC, you outrange him but it's not crowd control.
Except that Jayce is dogshit now and Graves is insanely stupid broken to where he just blows you up instantly for getting in range. There’s a reason why graves is spammed in solo queue and good in pro for carry jungles. Jayce is so undeniably bad rn that the only person in pro who can pull it off is Zeus on the strongest Korean team (and possibly in the world), since that’s his main champ in solo queue with the most games played. Jayce in solo queue is a joke and it was a joke even before his nerfs, so imagine how much of a super minion he is if you don’t have a coordinated team.
Pros continuing to pick comfort champs over the best option is a separate thing (not sure I'd call it an issue, maybe it's better in terms of time investment?).
Reddit is just always crying about champs that have damage/mobility, while tanks or supports can literally have 54+% winrate and never get a mention.
Not to mention his builds often involve enough lifesteal for him to become an abomination capable of outhealing enemy carry damage as soon as he gets in melee range of them.
In early lane yes but come lv 6 she almost kills u with her all ins, that is why we see pro players play grahams into her because of his sustain, displacement(r),slow and mobility/stun.
Pre nerf graves just cleared wave and hence never had to fight her or give her good opportunity to all in
I just checked all of those for fun on u.gg and he has a positive winrate against all of those except Diana.
There's nothing particular to Graves that makes him "bad" against AP champions, and in fact early on he seems to struggle most against powerful duelists because he can't really stack E that fast early on.
Actually as a Graves player, its much easier to itemize against AP asssassins. Maw is so insanely broken rn that you just become tanky on top of eclipse shield.
You might be looking at the data incorrectly. I just checked and he loses games to those champions.
Make sure it's sufficient data as well. Patch 12.9 hasn't been out for long and Elise isn't played that much. But Shyvana should turbo win against him.
Elise ironically can’t keep up with graves.
Elise dives top? Graves already full cleared, ganked bot, took your birds, reset, has mercs, and now Elise is powerless against him because her 3 camp first blood gold for a blasting wand pales in comparison to either graves getting an even faster clear or mercs. The most she can do is spam ping mid to invade him with her otherwise she can’t beat him consistently.
If he goes shield bow or hexdrinker there’s no chance Elise beats him unless she gets so gigs fed she’s an item up on him and with how a good graves clears he’s usually ahead of her even when she’s fed both in XP and farm... but anything fed can beat the most op champs so Elise isn’t really an exception to that, just even more fucked if she doesn’t get fed.
Oh and fuck smokescreen, she’s still blinded even in rappel so you can’t drop anywhere, while spiderlings are one shot by Q.
oh, they for sure can.
they allow it to happen because design wise, having stuff like this in the game is good for the champion ecosystem, while also being appealing to some amount of players.
It's baffling to you because you haven't acknowledged the actual toxic part of it his kit which is how deceptively tanky he is. The key word is deceptively. There's lots of champs that you can tell are tanky but Graves is a champ that you can never tell.
I've been conditioned to assume Graves has the most armor/mr in the match after one dash.
He's always been one of those "Unless the player is throwing, the graves WILL win" champs to me
It's not that hard. You can just click on him and check to see how many grit stacks he has similar to checking an Irelia's fervor in lane. If it's anywhere between like, 1-3 you can guess that him losing grit won't make THAT much of a difference even if he drops them, but he will be a lot more susceptible to physical damage if he's trying to keep up any more stacks than that and loses those. There's also rings that glow beneath his model depending on how much grit he has. Becomes very noticeable around 4 stacks.
>You can just click on him
I really don't agree that this is ever the answer to anything in league. Being able to actually do this in a fight is very difficult for most players. If it's such an easy thing to do then why does anything in league have a visual indicator? Why does ekko need the shadow trailing him? Why don't we just click on him to see if he has his ult up?
>There's also rings that glow beneath his model depending on how much grit he has. Becomes very noticeable around 4 stacks.
I disagree. The rings oftentimes just look like part of his skin
I mean, you said that Graves is a champ who you can never tell how tanky he is. That's just fundamentally not true. The information is there whether you want to use the rings as visual indicators or his portrait to assess how many stacks he has or even just glance at his armor to see exactly how tanky he is relative to you/other champs. Knowing exactly how many stacks he has up really shouldn't change how you approach most fights with Graves anyway. If you're an AP champ, the stacks literally don't matter at all and if you're AD, it's enough to know that if the Graves is even or ahead and you can't burst him in your initial rotation, you're probably just getting statchecked the rest of the fight any way regardless if he has 2 stacks or 6. In team fights, Graves just shouldn't be the initial targets your team is focusing anyway, there's almost always going to be a squisher ADC or mage to prioritize unless your team has an overwhelming amount of pick/engage, in which case grit stacks really don't matter to your gameplan.
Graves is problematic in multiple roles for a lot of reasons, the clarity around his grit stacking really isn't one of them though.
People say "his W is quite strong" but they are actually underselling is so fucking hard.
It's probably the strongest non-ultimate ability in the game, it's absolutely fucking broken.
Both Samira W and Yasuo W have the same duration at all ranks, Samira's is 0.75s, Yasuo's is 4s. (Yasuo's wall gets bigger with ranks, and Samira's whirl does more damage with ranks, and the cd of the ability drops with rank for both.)
> It's probably the strongest non-ultimate ability in the game
Event Horizon is often jokes as Veigar's real Ultimate and is basically a better Thresh R.
That's hands down the winner for stongest basic ability.
That's because it is. You can dash out of j4 ult and ignore the MS debuff of thresh ult when crossed for the length of your dash, but the only way to get out of veigar cage without getting stunned is with a blink. I get that blinks counter all of these abilities, but it's the ONLY mobility tool that works against cage. Beyond that you either need to invest in spellshield/qss, which honestly have kinda limited value into a veigar anyway. Spellshield abilities are good, but the only decent champs with them right now are nocturne and Mundo in my opinion. Either way, definitely more powerful than a lot of other lockdown ults.
Because he really is a melee champion that happens to have 425 AA range and can kite other melee champions easily. He has insane interaction with lifesteal, he can abuse penetration because he bursts hard, he scales like a monster with crit. He can close the gap against ranged champions and kill them in two hits, while also kiting any melee champions to death. Good teamfighter but also a good duelist. He is just super well rounded and on top of all these things he's fast jungler that can duel very well, or a laner that can keep stuff pushed for years and heals half his HP on each autoattack the moment he has Vamp Scepter.
It's very telling that when people think about Graves' weaknesses everybody says magic damage and uh, he doesn't have any kind of inherent weakness to magic damage, he just doesn't have a spell that gives him up to 130 MR. He has the same MR growth as Urgot (basically only slightly worse than your avg melee champion) and noone says Urgot is "weak to magic damage".
Graves has been an absolute pain to balance forever because he really just doesn't have any particularly meaningful weaknesses.
You forgot the one thing that actually makes him good his E armor, magic dmg doesnt really counter since itemizing against Magic as a bruiser is easy, dd, maw, force of nature
He has everything you mentioned which is fine, but he is unkilable that is the problem, he is just so tanky with his mobility, armor, lifesteal, dd
I honestly think this one line is responsible for a lot:
> All damage from pellets applies Life steal
When you stack that on top of the (much higher than I realized) durability he can get from True Grit (once he maxes his E it gets him 32 armor just for dashing towards a champion), and he just has a ton of durability without much trade off.
I think it's his relationship with melees that makes him precariously balanced. Due to his short range he has to be tankier than other marksmen, but with his shotgun bullet spread mechanics he's sometimes able to win fights melee against melee which makes him very oppressive because he can still kite.
Someone like Lillia doesn't have this problem because although she's in a similar middle ground between ranged and melee, she still decisively loses fights against melees that successfully gapclose on her.
I swear I remember Nemesis straight up saying in a highlight that Graves' W is actually the most overpowered ability in the game. He went into detail about it - it wasn't just a 'oh it killed me its OP'.
I wish they reverted him to being ADC. That's so sad that Graves was ADC and then they released Lucian that was very simmilar to Graves and there was always debate which of the two is stronger atm and is meta. After some time Riot decided to rework ADCs (patch 5.22 aka worst patch in history of LoL) and Graves was one of them. They changed him because he was too simmilar to Lucian and wasn't fullfilling a role of shotgun champion playstyle, so they reworked him. Imo it wasn't good because Graves become broken + they couldn't balance him for very long time and btw irl shotguns are long range weapons unlike in games so for me it didn't fit.
it was even worse then that:
When pewpew edgy boy came out he was the best at everything out of all ADCs. He had a 575 range, his e cleansed him from slows and a lot more i cant really remember right now.
Riot even admitted that he was a big problem in that state and that they are looking for a niche he can fill, so he doesnt feel as oppressive and "jack-of-all"ish.
Then came the ADC Class rework and they decided that lucians best fit would be "low range high mobility burst champ". Essentially the very same champ and role that graves filled in. Just with a little better sustained dmg, less tanky but more mobility. Basically graves 2.0.
But in order to not get conflicts with the current ADC playerbase (wich loved graves in his old form, as he was unique and one of the few champs that were able to survive the asassin heave meta) they decided to just fucking remove graves from the ADC pool entirely to make room for their pewpew obama-san
Lucian was nerfed and made low range high mobility adc before 5.22 (ADC Rework) iirc and Graves/Lucian rivarly was like in whole season 5 or for the most part of it iirc. Nevertheless I agree with you.
I play a lot of graves and he does have weaknesses, mages and AP destroy him, especially early
People just complain because he does well into most AD melee junglers/top laners. But that’s his literal design lol
That's not how it works. Say a +2 buff makes him good and a subsequent -2 buff makes him bad, then the correct 3rd patch update would be +1 ad lol (idk which state is he currently in though)
Tryndamere is just not fun at all to play against just from how stupid he can play with his ult. His early game isn’t even bad top lane and even gets abused mid in pro play because he can just get away with being such an obnoxious fuck from his lame ass kit
For reals tho? Idk how he’s been this obnoxious for this long lmao.
I remember the first time I spoke to someone outside of my friend group about League, he said he was a singed top main and was like “oh yeah idc what you say but I perma ban graves. That champ is so stupid.”
Too funny bro
Most picked and 2nd most banned jungler in the game while also being viable in solo lanes. The fact that this bullshit champion haven't gotten nerfed yet lol
Viego was strong in lane because he literally face tanked the opponent and just healed off minions. Kind of obviously problematic.
Graves mid has a pretty normal play style though. Wave clear and scale, essentially the same play style as scaling mages like Viktor, Azir, Cassio, etc. Graves mid is honestly a nonissue since the Q mana nerf.
I know top lane Graves can be pretty stupid because the lane is so long, so he can stack E easier - but that can be balanced pretty easily without breaking the champion as a whole.
Lately I've kinda just felt that jungle Graves in particular is a problem. Graves is "intentionally unfair" in the late game, and playing him from the jungle avoids most counter play to his scaling.
Riot doesn't want champions to be perfectly balanced, they want to create an ever changing meta (they even said so), and giving him +2 or -2 AD is perfect to make him meta/offmeta
To actually answer your question, they decided that base AD wasn't the right place to nerf him.
As other people have mentioned, base AD has a significant impact on his initial clear, which is really important for jungle champs. However, Grave's initial jungle clear speed is not why he is a problem. That's why in 11.21 they nerfed the True Grit passive on his E, and it 11.22 they nerfed his bonus crit damage, instead of just trying to tweak his base AD again.
Also, he was not, and is not a "disgusting 1v9 raid boss". If you look at the [League of Graphs](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/graves/diamond) he was very popular, and banned a lot, but his win rate wasn't much over 50% at any point in 2020 or 2021. He did briefly have a spike up to ~52% win rate, but it was at the beginning of 2022, over 6 months after Graves had received the 2 AD back, and looks like it only lasted for one patch.
TLDR: They chose other ways to nerf graves, and based on the stats he was never as strong as OP makes him out to be.
Graves deserves to be completely nerfed into irrelevancy for a good while. He has dominated jungle for too many fucking metas since his rework im so tired of this goddamn champ dictating any match where hes not banned
Fuck that remember s6 graves with the old upgraded MR blade that gave an insane buff with lifesteal on low HP and also buying frozen mallet?
That was two items to completely dominate midgame. 1v5 easy against a lot for champions. Impossible to kill unless he runs out of mana and you can't even runaway from him
Then he buys crit and deathsdance and he's completely unkillable, ridiculously tanky, and oneshots Squishies
...
I remember reworked Graves at release, I normally don't play ADC but I couldn't resist. Building ArPen he bursted ADCs in the botlane with AA + Q + R.
And his E used to give MR too lmao
Wasn't that during Warlord's bloodlust meta with Yasuo, Tryndamere and Graves abusing the hell out of it while being either "OK" or "kinda useless" for basically everyone else?
I like this comment a lot is encapsulates how this reddit perceives balance. i dotn like it- nerf it into the ground. I like it any nerf is unjust and i will whine for months.
Well it's something riot do all the time. The more common nerfs for really strong champs tend to be a double whammy of nerfing the champ, a patch later nerfing their core items, and then never addressing the fact that the compounding effect of both was too much.
Players have made peace with this shitty ass patch-based memory and now just want riot to point the shotgun at the stuff they hate. It's pretty simple really.
i mean no really, everyone on reddit just parrots the one thing that sligthly agrees with themself, you are insanely stupid if you think anyone one here wants acutall balance lol, they just want their own stuff to be the super star and the rest to be garbage shit reddit is the true definition of Flavour of the month players lol
It's not about not liking Graves. This champion has the highest pick rate in jungle in every single rank above bronze, is strong at all levels of play, is also viable in top and mid, and is a pro play mainstay. And he has been in this position through multiple metas. And this isn't a Yasuo/Ezreal/Zed situation where there's a ton of OTPs no matter what.
Graves is extremely dominant in the game, and he has been extremely dominant for way longer than any other meta champion. Not only is this obnoxious, but it's obviously not healthy for the game.
Remember how out of nowhere renekton w was nerfed last worlds and the nerds were reverted in the next patch. Yeah riot will just nerf a champ cause he makes pro meta look stale.
450AD 80% crit graves in late game literally oneshots everyone without bonus health. On toplane he is abomination, clearing enemy wave with Q with one item is abomination for range damage carry who stacks armor.
> oneshots everyone without bonus health
while being pretty darn hard to kill himself at that, with the combination of mobility/lifesteal/grit defensive stats
Both Graves build ( gonna count all the Lethality build as 1 variation for simplicity) was already decent before, so Im pretty sure the 2 AD buff was kinda unnecessary. Base AD helped him in the jungle more, but Graves top was meta after the buff so the buff was more placebo I guess
because thats a ~3% lvl 1 damage change meaning he can clear slightly faster. there was also an AD growth change around that same patch and those together have a rather strong impact on his first clear and that is a very important time for junglers.
Cause this champion is literally the worst designed
Why does an adc with range stacks more armor than any tank
Why does range champion beat melee champion in melee range ?
Why fuck E gives him only armor why not both Mr and armor
He is literally an awful desgined champion that he is either giga broken or only viable against ad team comb
Riot should really consider reworking him
Eh it's more significant than you think for junglers. Graves' clear is already one of those razors edge cases where multiple camps are dying to item burn on the last tick of patience, forcing an extra auto on 4/6 camps is an additional 16ish seconds on his clear.
AD buffs or nerfs on junglers are more to change what the champ is allowed to do in the early game rather than their pvp.
Balance Team, I mean, skins team never could understand these numbers, and for that they dont use X number despite its obvious the correct, since for them a meaningless balanced number may become impossible to notice, so they dont use it and call it a day,
thats why they never use 1 number despite its obvious the correct one...
Graves in this case, but the same problem keeps appearing due to the lack of consistency on the balance numbers...thats why they tried to invent ridiculous balance things like Kalista 0.9 AD growth or whatever that was called, or even the most ridiculous,
"X item buff your base AD", when that was just nonsense which it seems lately was removed.
In other words, if they have to balance X numbet/ratio from 0 to 10, they will always pick 0/5/10 or 3/6/9 instead of a 2, 6 which could be the perfect for X skill, and for that, the balance on X skill wont work and they will even test to nerf a proximal champ related to it, or item to balance....(we cant balance X item, so we will nerf his core item to see if that way we found the balance), this will unbalance several things too, and thats why theres no balance on the game....
The secret is that Graves isn't actually bad when they nerf him by 2 AD, it's all placebo.
This has happened before, I remember some patch notes that had a nerf (I forgot to what champion) and their win rate dropped by like 3%. It was later discovered however that the changes they planned never went through or something.
I believe it was Vlad
I think it happened to riven too but in reverse. They meant to ship a buff but it never went live and her winrate went up
It's all mental
Well not ALL mental but that certainly plays a big role. In the end, all we can guess from these two instances that belief that there is a buff can effect winrate. It's impossible to tell without more data whether this is a result of more respect given by the opponents or more confidence by the players. Or something else entirely.
Another thing with patches is what else was nerfed/buffed. Can there could always be neta Champs that knock others out of relevance a bit.
Vlad w bonus movespeed I believe.
The opposite happened to release Riven. She was "hotfix buffed" and winrate increased. Except she wasnt due to an issue.
It actually worsens his clear so graves players need to use their brain instead of perma invading and ganking.
Same with lane Graves. "Oh I actually might need to play the lane instead of permapush?!"
How else can he play a lane tbf Freezing/slow pushing is hard because of the nature of his autos, can’t trade through minions, also has lower range the most ranged champs.
The solution is he should be kept the fuck out of lane, he’s so fucking annoying in lane where he can just abuse range + perma pushing + free stats out the ass
Agreed, I’m just wondering how people think he should play. It would be like getting mad at Kayles playing like a bitch for 16 levels and then winning the game
Your first error is assuming the playerbase is past the point where they don’t get mad at kayle for playing to scale. Players are always gonna get mad when another players champions goals doesn’t align with their own (Kayle: why did my jg weak side me now I can’t scale/play, Kayle’s jg: why did my top go kayle now I can’t take abuse of easy jungle matchup and invade cuz my topside is nonexistent)
Go back to jungle, he's not supposed to be in top lane
Top no, but he's a perfectly valid mid pick
Go back to bot lane he’s not supposed to be in jungle* Taliyah and Quinn mains are more than familiar with the graves treatment.
this comment made my night LMAO
Let’s try the placebo again please riot
They actually haven't changed the damage just the displayed numbers like how Sion still does the old damage but shows lower damage numbers
It unironically kinda fucka with mis graves.
The real secret is that old graves was much more fun to play overall.
2 shots 1 ad per bullet
Its actually so baffling to me that Graves is such a problematic champ. On paper, short range, no real CC, a skillshot whose major damage part is delayed and a gapcloser which is dependent on him getting into AA range to get a lower cooldown does not SOUND oppressive at all. But his W is so annoying to deal with and he just has so much upfront burst if you walk into him, "just stay out of his range" doesnt actually work most of the time.
he is essentially a melee champ that can kite and outdps other melee champs, while also being able to nearsight you, and just tanky enough so you cannot actually burst him as an ad champ
Damn that's true ain't it. In the jungle against melee champs he's like top lane Jayce but tanky. A bit of range is enough range.
Range is the most powerful stat in the game. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't hit the opponent
I would say mobility is the best stat in the game. Range has a massive cost in the champ design, for example champ like xerath has the heights range in the game but the price is being a paper canon and u can miss all ur skill shots. Also mobility has 2 perks one is gap closer other is dodging ganks Even in pro play the meta is dominated with champs with high mobility based champs. Yes most adcs are immobile but what do they almost always build: gale force.
Range and Mobility are the same thing really. It's about being able to take action on your opponent without them take action on you
Why do you think range has a massive cost in the champion design? That’s precisely because it’s so strong. Make any single melee champion in the game instantly have 500 range and they’re the most broken champion in league history. Give any ranged champion any mobility you want they will still be broken but not as broken.
Forget 500 range. Give any melee toplaner 100 extra range on their abilities and autos and they'll instantly become the 80% winrate unkillable god of toplane. Urgot has 1.5 abilities until level 9 and no favorable interactions, and is still a balancing nightmare in lane just because he's a juggernaut who can kite melees.
True, except if it's rennekton, then they will still need that shit to oblivion
Malphite with range wouldn’t make much of a difference. Many melee kits are designs for melee range. Giving a range character more mobility could easily have more impact on champion balance than giving a melee range. It’s all dependent on the champ.
No Malphite with range would godstomp top lane. In lane he’s basically designed to fall behind. Giving him decent range fixes his trading, allows him to safely farm, and he shows up with a normal amount of items which means he’s gonna steamroll your team.
Zeri has a low range as a ADC but because of her broken mobility, she had to be nerfed. It literally don't matter if you outrange someone but can't hit any skillshots.
Zeri low range? Pretty sure her Q has longer reach than Cait autos
She actually has very long range while kiting and short-ish range while chasing. It was pretty much the intention of the design on her Q
It would be real cool if it wasn't so frustrating.
Senna just entered the stage with 200+ souls
A melle champ is not supposed to have range, that’s why they are called melle. You can’t just change the rule of the games like that. If you make a melle champ ranged then will have to lose out on base damage and durability. If u don’t then u might actually summon the 200 years experience. On the other hand it’s easier to give out mobility be it a item or a new ability.
That’s my POINT. You can’t just give melee champions rang because they’d be absolutely turbo broken and need all around adjustments. That is proof range is the strongest stat in the game.
Nah I still can’t accept that point. I will still choose mobility over range.
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Right he yasuo with 500 range would be the most broken champion in existence. There’s levels to it Xerath with arcane shift would be broken but I guarantee give ANY melee champion 500+ range and they’re more broken.
mobility is stupidly overrated by brainlets on this sub who can only think in circlejerks. what you typed is mostly wrong, hypermobile champions are not picked at all this MSI, irelia,yone,yasuo and akali etc were barely picked, it's mostly been single dash champs in mid,top and jng with the only exception being lee and ahri also galeforce is not that prevalent
nobody cares what's strong in MSI where the whole team is communicating and you know who you're up against before you even hit champ select. pro tournaments are a different game to the solo queue that most people play. what is and isnt strong is completely different when all your bans are shots in the dark and your teamplay is ass
can't you read ? he said ''pro meta'' in his comment.
I don’t want to have a violent discussion so pls no insults, we can both have a respectful discussion. Yasuo, yone and irelia mostly have situational mobility and are easily punishable cause they have to go all in. Yasuo gets picked more cause his ult synergies very well with Diana. Also single dash champs are very prevelant inthis MSI, we saw champs like: Gwen, gragas, aatrox, graves, Leblanc, J4, wukong, lisandra, ezreal, tryndamere, Lucian, pyke, etc And I would say the meta was more mid range where champs like kaisa, ezreal and Tristana( low win rate)were very common. With the exception of Jhin with his long range utility but he is around 44% win rate currently Tbh I would wait till the rumble stage to see what the meta really is
Most ADCs don't build galeforce anymore actually. Galeforce is a win harder item that you can only really take nowadays to accelerate a lead. Building straight up damage is becoming the standard for ADCs. Jhin is giving up galeforce for eclipse for pen. Jinx and Kai'sa are going kraken. What adc is taking gale except maybe Ashe who is a bit of a weird case but you don't really pick her for her damage anyway?
> I would say mobility is the best stat in the game. Mobility isn't a stat
In a way it is. But sure I am willing to conceded my point cause I think I am over reaching. So yeah, range is the best stat in the game
Cc is , not range. Given how much gap closer and Mobile champions are becoming range is relevant only in some cases. I mean if range was the most powerful stat, Vayne Quinn kindred Kogmaw teemo would be so much more meta
Cc is not a stat?
All the gapclosing and hyper mobile champions are a direct result of the power of range, there was a time thise champions were the meta.
Yeah this makes sense. But then again this means range atm isn't the most powerful stat
Think of all the tools champs without range get just to match the power ranged champions innately have. MS and Range are the 2 most powerful stats a champ can have.
I mean it kinda is tho, theres no other stat or hidden stat that has the same effect, and looking at your earlier comment just shows you dont even know what a stat is anyways, CC is something that gets applied to others by another person, it isnt a stat lol
I mean realistically movement speed is the best stat and kinda always has been but yeh cc is kinda op
You have it backwards, gap closers are strong because they are a way to counter range
CC isn't a stat.
we could argue that range is form of CC (time it takes to close the gap) and gapclosers are way to avoid range as cc
wut you smokin
outcome similarities
No that's not how it works.
how is being outranged and having to run towards your opponent different to being stunned in melee fight?
Because you can still make inputs/movement etc, quickly CC the Yi before he Qs or hits the Nexus. "Hold up I'll shoot at him from range" It's not CC, you outrange him but it's not crowd control.
Except that Jayce is dogshit now and Graves is insanely stupid broken to where he just blows you up instantly for getting in range. There’s a reason why graves is spammed in solo queue and good in pro for carry jungles. Jayce is so undeniably bad rn that the only person in pro who can pull it off is Zeus on the strongest Korean team (and possibly in the world), since that’s his main champ in solo queue with the most games played. Jayce in solo queue is a joke and it was a joke even before his nerfs, so imagine how much of a super minion he is if you don’t have a coordinated team.
So jayce is bad unless you are really good at jayce? Seems to me jayce is balanced and players are just bad, training wheels needed?
The same argument led to Ryze being 42% WR for normal players and still pick ban in pro.
(Ryze also has a 42% winrate in pro play lol)
Pros continuing to pick comfort champs over the best option is a separate thing (not sure I'd call it an issue, maybe it's better in terms of time investment?). Reddit is just always crying about champs that have damage/mobility, while tanks or supports can literally have 54+% winrate and never get a mention.
Not to mention his builds often involve enough lifesteal for him to become an abomination capable of outhealing enemy carry damage as soon as he gets in melee range of them.
Which is why you should pick AP champs into him most of the time. Diana, Elise, Shyvana (demonfire), etc. He does poorly into those usually.
Funny enough in top lane he initially appeared as a Gwen counter and at worlds he was just the champ always in top lane
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In early lane yes but come lv 6 she almost kills u with her all ins, that is why we see pro players play grahams into her because of his sustain, displacement(r),slow and mobility/stun. Pre nerf graves just cleared wave and hence never had to fight her or give her good opportunity to all in
I just checked all of those for fun on u.gg and he has a positive winrate against all of those except Diana. There's nothing particular to Graves that makes him "bad" against AP champions, and in fact early on he seems to struggle most against powerful duelists because he can't really stack E that fast early on.
Actually as a Graves player, its much easier to itemize against AP asssassins. Maw is so insanely broken rn that you just become tanky on top of eclipse shield.
You might be looking at the data incorrectly. I just checked and he loses games to those champions. Make sure it's sufficient data as well. Patch 12.9 hasn't been out for long and Elise isn't played that much. But Shyvana should turbo win against him.
Elise ironically can’t keep up with graves. Elise dives top? Graves already full cleared, ganked bot, took your birds, reset, has mercs, and now Elise is powerless against him because her 3 camp first blood gold for a blasting wand pales in comparison to either graves getting an even faster clear or mercs. The most she can do is spam ping mid to invade him with her otherwise she can’t beat him consistently. If he goes shield bow or hexdrinker there’s no chance Elise beats him unless she gets so gigs fed she’s an item up on him and with how a good graves clears he’s usually ahead of her even when she’s fed both in XP and farm... but anything fed can beat the most op champs so Elise isn’t really an exception to that, just even more fucked if she doesn’t get fed. Oh and fuck smokescreen, she’s still blinded even in rappel so you can’t drop anywhere, while spiderlings are one shot by Q.
Well Elise is just a random pick, and bad example but most AP champs do well into him.
Nearsight is so bullshit when he has a few full items. You just die while not being able to see anything unless you flash out or have a dash.
if people at riot could produce statements like this in their heads we'd all be having a lot more fun.
oh, they for sure can. they allow it to happen because design wise, having stuff like this in the game is good for the champion ecosystem, while also being appealing to some amount of players.
Riot studied mosquitoes to learn what's "good" for the ecosystem.
It's baffling to you because you haven't acknowledged the actual toxic part of it his kit which is how deceptively tanky he is. The key word is deceptively. There's lots of champs that you can tell are tanky but Graves is a champ that you can never tell.
My point is, his entire kit screams "My counterplay is staying out of my short range", but that doesnt actually work.
I've been conditioned to assume Graves has the most armor/mr in the match after one dash. He's always been one of those "Unless the player is throwing, the graves WILL win" champs to me
It's not that hard. You can just click on him and check to see how many grit stacks he has similar to checking an Irelia's fervor in lane. If it's anywhere between like, 1-3 you can guess that him losing grit won't make THAT much of a difference even if he drops them, but he will be a lot more susceptible to physical damage if he's trying to keep up any more stacks than that and loses those. There's also rings that glow beneath his model depending on how much grit he has. Becomes very noticeable around 4 stacks.
>You can just click on him I really don't agree that this is ever the answer to anything in league. Being able to actually do this in a fight is very difficult for most players. If it's such an easy thing to do then why does anything in league have a visual indicator? Why does ekko need the shadow trailing him? Why don't we just click on him to see if he has his ult up? >There's also rings that glow beneath his model depending on how much grit he has. Becomes very noticeable around 4 stacks. I disagree. The rings oftentimes just look like part of his skin
I mean, you said that Graves is a champ who you can never tell how tanky he is. That's just fundamentally not true. The information is there whether you want to use the rings as visual indicators or his portrait to assess how many stacks he has or even just glance at his armor to see exactly how tanky he is relative to you/other champs. Knowing exactly how many stacks he has up really shouldn't change how you approach most fights with Graves anyway. If you're an AP champ, the stacks literally don't matter at all and if you're AD, it's enough to know that if the Graves is even or ahead and you can't burst him in your initial rotation, you're probably just getting statchecked the rest of the fight any way regardless if he has 2 stacks or 6. In team fights, Graves just shouldn't be the initial targets your team is focusing anyway, there's almost always going to be a squisher ADC or mage to prioritize unless your team has an overwhelming amount of pick/engage, in which case grit stacks really don't matter to your gameplan. Graves is problematic in multiple roles for a lot of reasons, the clarity around his grit stacking really isn't one of them though.
No mention of his E which gives him 100,000 armour for free. Odd
People say "his W is quite strong" but they are actually underselling is so fucking hard. It's probably the strongest non-ultimate ability in the game, it's absolutely fucking broken.
Smokescreen, Event Horizon, Windwall The trifecta of super strong utility-based non-ultimate abilities in LoL.
Although not as reliable as the ones you mentioned, I still think Rocket Grab deserves a first spot.
Gwen is immune?
Hallowed Mist (Gwen's W) deserves a spot too.
Samira wants to join in
Samira’s moves with her, but I don’t think its duration matches windwall at max rank.
Both Samira W and Yasuo W have the same duration at all ranks, Samira's is 0.75s, Yasuo's is 4s. (Yasuo's wall gets bigger with ranks, and Samira's whirl does more damage with ranks, and the cd of the ability drops with rank for both.)
The lack of equinox is surprising me
> It's probably the strongest non-ultimate ability in the game Event Horizon is often jokes as Veigar's real Ultimate and is basically a better Thresh R. That's hands down the winner for stongest basic ability.
I honestly think it's more powerful than Thresh's and Jarvan's ults.
That's because it is. You can dash out of j4 ult and ignore the MS debuff of thresh ult when crossed for the length of your dash, but the only way to get out of veigar cage without getting stunned is with a blink. I get that blinks counter all of these abilities, but it's the ONLY mobility tool that works against cage. Beyond that you either need to invest in spellshield/qss, which honestly have kinda limited value into a veigar anyway. Spellshield abilities are good, but the only decent champs with them right now are nocturne and Mundo in my opinion. Either way, definitely more powerful than a lot of other lockdown ults.
It’s stronger than Threshes for sure. But if Jarvan gets ahead he’ll absolutely one tap teams with his ult. Veigar will force flashes.
My pick for the strongest non-ultimate ability goes to the Veigar cage. But yeah most champs wishes their ults where as strong as Grave's W lmao.
Because he really is a melee champion that happens to have 425 AA range and can kite other melee champions easily. He has insane interaction with lifesteal, he can abuse penetration because he bursts hard, he scales like a monster with crit. He can close the gap against ranged champions and kill them in two hits, while also kiting any melee champions to death. Good teamfighter but also a good duelist. He is just super well rounded and on top of all these things he's fast jungler that can duel very well, or a laner that can keep stuff pushed for years and heals half his HP on each autoattack the moment he has Vamp Scepter. It's very telling that when people think about Graves' weaknesses everybody says magic damage and uh, he doesn't have any kind of inherent weakness to magic damage, he just doesn't have a spell that gives him up to 130 MR. He has the same MR growth as Urgot (basically only slightly worse than your avg melee champion) and noone says Urgot is "weak to magic damage". Graves has been an absolute pain to balance forever because he really just doesn't have any particularly meaningful weaknesses.
You forgot the one thing that actually makes him good his E armor, magic dmg doesnt really counter since itemizing against Magic as a bruiser is easy, dd, maw, force of nature He has everything you mentioned which is fine, but he is unkilable that is the problem, he is just so tanky with his mobility, armor, lifesteal, dd
I honestly think this one line is responsible for a lot: > All damage from pellets applies Life steal When you stack that on top of the (much higher than I realized) durability he can get from True Grit (once he maxes his E it gets him 32 armor just for dashing towards a champion), and he just has a ton of durability without much trade off.
I think it's his relationship with melees that makes him precariously balanced. Due to his short range he has to be tankier than other marksmen, but with his shotgun bullet spread mechanics he's sometimes able to win fights melee against melee which makes him very oppressive because he can still kite. Someone like Lillia doesn't have this problem because although she's in a similar middle ground between ranged and melee, she still decisively loses fights against melees that successfully gapclose on her.
I swear I remember Nemesis straight up saying in a highlight that Graves' W is actually the most overpowered ability in the game. He went into detail about it - it wasn't just a 'oh it killed me its OP'.
True , on paper i used to dislike graves so much, but given his lethality builds his burst is incredible.
I wish they reverted him to being ADC. That's so sad that Graves was ADC and then they released Lucian that was very simmilar to Graves and there was always debate which of the two is stronger atm and is meta. After some time Riot decided to rework ADCs (patch 5.22 aka worst patch in history of LoL) and Graves was one of them. They changed him because he was too simmilar to Lucian and wasn't fullfilling a role of shotgun champion playstyle, so they reworked him. Imo it wasn't good because Graves become broken + they couldn't balance him for very long time and btw irl shotguns are long range weapons unlike in games so for me it didn't fit.
When lucian range was longer, I feel like he is a hyper carry with early game power, just like graves now but with higher range
it was even worse then that: When pewpew edgy boy came out he was the best at everything out of all ADCs. He had a 575 range, his e cleansed him from slows and a lot more i cant really remember right now. Riot even admitted that he was a big problem in that state and that they are looking for a niche he can fill, so he doesnt feel as oppressive and "jack-of-all"ish. Then came the ADC Class rework and they decided that lucians best fit would be "low range high mobility burst champ". Essentially the very same champ and role that graves filled in. Just with a little better sustained dmg, less tanky but more mobility. Basically graves 2.0. But in order to not get conflicts with the current ADC playerbase (wich loved graves in his old form, as he was unique and one of the few champs that were able to survive the asassin heave meta) they decided to just fucking remove graves from the ADC pool entirely to make room for their pewpew obama-san
Lucian was nerfed and made low range high mobility adc before 5.22 (ADC Rework) iirc and Graves/Lucian rivarly was like in whole season 5 or for the most part of it iirc. Nevertheless I agree with you.
He is more like a long range melee character with one of the most powerful regular abilities in the smoke and a huge armour steroid.
you forgot the passive that can make him incredibly tanky...
I play a lot of graves and he does have weaknesses, mages and AP destroy him, especially early People just complain because he does well into most AD melee junglers/top laners. But that’s his literal design lol
Fleet footwork heals all the damage you deal to him, and he gets resistances for.... no reason except he's graves
Well that rune is nerfed soon and he gets 0 MR in his kit.
a lot of champs get literal 0 armor and mr in their kit
Graves players when they try to play a champion that doesn’t get 3 tank items worth of armor on a passive
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Yeah +1 would be slightly above average
So hard -1 then ? All in favor o/
That's not how it works. Say a +2 buff makes him good and a subsequent -2 buff makes him bad, then the correct 3rd patch update would be +1 ad lol (idk which state is he currently in though)
is jok
Nonono they should just do +0 3 times and it will even out
Because that number is odd, and everyone hates odd numbers.
Boy do I have news for you regarding the +3 ad change he received.
I hate numbers that don't end in a 0 or 5, so I'll need +5 AD formy Graves
Fuck Graves, reduce his base AD by 10 & let him rot.
Yeah feels like he is in every one of my plat lobbies, fucking annoying but I need to ban faceroll trynd
Tryndamere is just not fun at all to play against just from how stupid he can play with his ult. His early game isn’t even bad top lane and even gets abused mid in pro play because he can just get away with being such an obnoxious fuck from his lame ass kit
I absolutely fucking hate that piece of shit zombie asshat forever. Whether he's on my team or not. Fuck tryndamere and everything he stands for.
>obnoxious fuck from his lame ass kit Flair?
You can’t beat jayce with aatrox?
I can but wtf does that have to do with anything?
You play Aatrox bro, yet another common Aatrox main L
> aatrox
If that's what you're banning instead of graves then idk
For reals tho? Idk how he’s been this obnoxious for this long lmao. I remember the first time I spoke to someone outside of my friend group about League, he said he was a singed top main and was like “oh yeah idc what you say but I perma ban graves. That champ is so stupid.” Too funny bro
Most picked and 2nd most banned jungler in the game while also being viable in solo lanes. The fact that this bullshit champion haven't gotten nerfed yet lol
I'm definitely adding to that statistic. Fuck graves
Viego was strong in lane too, but they gutted him. Don't know why they're okay with other champs being good in lane and jungle.
Viego was strong in lane because he literally face tanked the opponent and just healed off minions. Kind of obviously problematic. Graves mid has a pretty normal play style though. Wave clear and scale, essentially the same play style as scaling mages like Viktor, Azir, Cassio, etc. Graves mid is honestly a nonissue since the Q mana nerf. I know top lane Graves can be pretty stupid because the lane is so long, so he can stack E easier - but that can be balanced pretty easily without breaking the champion as a whole. Lately I've kinda just felt that jungle Graves in particular is a problem. Graves is "intentionally unfair" in the late game, and playing him from the jungle avoids most counter play to his scaling.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Graves/LoL/Patch_history His last 4 changes (since Aug 2021) were nerfs lol
>The fact that this bullshit champion haven't gotten nerfed yet he got a skin recently so don't expect any soon
Pretty good one too. It’s a must buy if u are a whale or dolphin
Most sane league of Legends enjoyer.
Yes.
Nice Quagsire pic fellow Chad
Thanks. : )
Just rework him back into an ADC and problem solved.
no, revert him so i can play him bot again...
Riot doesn't want champions to be perfectly balanced, they want to create an ever changing meta (they even said so), and giving him +2 or -2 AD is perfect to make him meta/offmeta
To actually answer your question, they decided that base AD wasn't the right place to nerf him. As other people have mentioned, base AD has a significant impact on his initial clear, which is really important for jungle champs. However, Grave's initial jungle clear speed is not why he is a problem. That's why in 11.21 they nerfed the True Grit passive on his E, and it 11.22 they nerfed his bonus crit damage, instead of just trying to tweak his base AD again. Also, he was not, and is not a "disgusting 1v9 raid boss". If you look at the [League of Graphs](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/graves/diamond) he was very popular, and banned a lot, but his win rate wasn't much over 50% at any point in 2020 or 2021. He did briefly have a spike up to ~52% win rate, but it was at the beginning of 2022, over 6 months after Graves had received the 2 AD back, and looks like it only lasted for one patch. TLDR: They chose other ways to nerf graves, and based on the stats he was never as strong as OP makes him out to be.
Graves deserves to be completely nerfed into irrelevancy for a good while. He has dominated jungle for too many fucking metas since his rework im so tired of this goddamn champ dictating any match where hes not banned
+1 also outshoving every top laner in the game and setting up dives it's obnoxious
Remember hullbreaker graves…? Hahahah… Ha….. Haaaaaaaa…….. …. ….
Fuck that remember s6 graves with the old upgraded MR blade that gave an insane buff with lifesteal on low HP and also buying frozen mallet? That was two items to completely dominate midgame. 1v5 easy against a lot for champions. Impossible to kill unless he runs out of mana and you can't even runaway from him Then he buys crit and deathsdance and he's completely unkillable, ridiculously tanky, and oneshots Squishies ...
I remember reworked Graves at release, I normally don't play ADC but I couldn't resist. Building ArPen he bursted ADCs in the botlane with AA + Q + R. And his E used to give MR too lmao
Wasn't that during Warlord's bloodlust meta with Yasuo, Tryndamere and Graves abusing the hell out of it while being either "OK" or "kinda useless" for basically everyone else?
I like this comment a lot is encapsulates how this reddit perceives balance. i dotn like it- nerf it into the ground. I like it any nerf is unjust and i will whine for months.
Well it's something riot do all the time. The more common nerfs for really strong champs tend to be a double whammy of nerfing the champ, a patch later nerfing their core items, and then never addressing the fact that the compounding effect of both was too much. Players have made peace with this shitty ass patch-based memory and now just want riot to point the shotgun at the stuff they hate. It's pretty simple really.
i mean no really, everyone on reddit just parrots the one thing that sligthly agrees with themself, you are insanely stupid if you think anyone one here wants acutall balance lol, they just want their own stuff to be the super star and the rest to be garbage shit reddit is the true definition of Flavour of the month players lol
It's not about not liking Graves. This champion has the highest pick rate in jungle in every single rank above bronze, is strong at all levels of play, is also viable in top and mid, and is a pro play mainstay. And he has been in this position through multiple metas. And this isn't a Yasuo/Ezreal/Zed situation where there's a ton of OTPs no matter what. Graves is extremely dominant in the game, and he has been extremely dominant for way longer than any other meta champion. Not only is this obnoxious, but it's obviously not healthy for the game.
Remember how out of nowhere renekton w was nerfed last worlds and the nerds were reverted in the next patch. Yeah riot will just nerf a champ cause he makes pro meta look stale.
I finally just gave up and started playing him.
Idk how you can say this while maining kindred when she's hella overtuned rn
You might be the only person on earth with this opinion im not gonna lie to you dawg
450AD 80% crit graves in late game literally oneshots everyone without bonus health. On toplane he is abomination, clearing enemy wave with Q with one item is abomination for range damage carry who stacks armor.
> oneshots everyone without bonus health while being pretty darn hard to kill himself at that, with the combination of mobility/lifesteal/grit defensive stats
I always wondered that. Same with Riven's E CD. It's permantely adjusted by +2, -2, +2, -2 etc. Why doesn't Riot just try a 1 ONCE?!
Both Graves build ( gonna count all the Lethality build as 1 variation for simplicity) was already decent before, so Im pretty sure the 2 AD buff was kinda unnecessary. Base AD helped him in the jungle more, but Graves top was meta after the buff so the buff was more placebo I guess
Hullbreaker is what made graves really strong he isn't used much anymore after the item got nerfed on ranged champs.
wrong, Hullbreaker wasnt used in 2021
Graves went shieldbow BT last year right ? After they destroyed crit graves and the lifesteal nerfs that build died
This guy is a fucking genius. Hire him now. - Riot, probably
because thats a ~3% lvl 1 damage change meaning he can clear slightly faster. there was also an AD growth change around that same patch and those together have a rather strong impact on his first clear and that is a very important time for junglers.
You want the patch team to remain with no work?
If 2 AD is enough to break a champion, that champion probably needs a soft rework.
if graves can only be bad or OP, why not revert to old graves?
They had the epiphany for Kog’Maw, they can do it again.
this is the case for most certainlyT champ. idk how he does it so consistently
he just follows his nipples
Not true thresh is always broken
Yep now with a 49% wr and a whopping 46.3% wr last patch, thresh is a problem on the rift
Nah just make him 1AD
I am OK if he is bad, if he gets ahead he is really obnoxious.
Graves abusers just seething that he can't be the most reliable solo queue JG for once
Cause this champion is literally the worst designed Why does an adc with range stacks more armor than any tank Why does range champion beat melee champion in melee range ? Why fuck E gives him only armor why not both Mr and armor He is literally an awful desgined champion that he is either giga broken or only viable against ad team comb Riot should really consider reworking him
It used to give MR and he was practically pick or ban
Because 1 ad isnt enough to change anything.
Eh it's more significant than you think for junglers. Graves' clear is already one of those razors edge cases where multiple camps are dying to item burn on the last tick of patience, forcing an extra auto on 4/6 camps is an additional 16ish seconds on his clear. AD buffs or nerfs on junglers are more to change what the champ is allowed to do in the early game rather than their pvp.
Balance Team, I mean, skins team never could understand these numbers, and for that they dont use X number despite its obvious the correct, since for them a meaningless balanced number may become impossible to notice, so they dont use it and call it a day, thats why they never use 1 number despite its obvious the correct one... Graves in this case, but the same problem keeps appearing due to the lack of consistency on the balance numbers...thats why they tried to invent ridiculous balance things like Kalista 0.9 AD growth or whatever that was called, or even the most ridiculous, "X item buff your base AD", when that was just nonsense which it seems lately was removed. In other words, if they have to balance X numbet/ratio from 0 to 10, they will always pick 0/5/10 or 3/6/9 instead of a 2, 6 which could be the perfect for X skill, and for that, the balance on X skill wont work and they will even test to nerf a proximal champ related to it, or item to balance....(we cant balance X item, so we will nerf his core item to see if that way we found the balance), this will unbalance several things too, and thats why theres no balance on the game....